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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: X-ray on May 26, 2006, 06:54:29 PM
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So, we are being encouraged to hand in knives to reduce knife crime. Now the only knives I have that can be considered dangerous are a kitchen knife (a short serrated knife) and a scalpel. But I don't carry those, they are for home use.
However, if I so wished I could take the kitchen knife down to Camden market and hurt quite a few people at the very least before I was stopped.
This makes me ask whether the UK government is addressing the proper issues by concentrating on the knives rather than people's attitudes, their behaviour. We all have knives in the house. And we can all cause some serious trouble with them if we like, but most of us don't do that, do we?. The same applies to other items such as screwdrivers and other tools.
I'm not against people being prohibited to carry items in public when they have no reasonable cause to do so, but this amnesty is not going to make us any safer. The criminal who wants to carry a knife will do so.
The number of knives available to the everyday man in the street has not been restricted at any point in recent history, yet the number of stabbings has gone up.
What's next, having a spoon amnesty to curb obesity?
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I concur.
Amnesties in most cases inviolve law abiding citizens surrendering weapons they were never going to use. The argument is though, that if they are out of circulation, this can only be a good thing.
Furthermore, you raise another interesting point. I dunno if you have read the British Crime Survey, but an interesting point is that there are two issues - crime, and the fear of crime.
Politicians will always try and stir up fear for their own ends.
[Or have I missed the mark slightly with this comment???]
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Cyberus wrote:
[Or have I missed the mark slightly with this comment???]
Nope, I think you're pretty much spot on about the politicians, hype up the problem and then do something completely pointless that they can then bleat about everytime the topic is brought up.
I'm just suprised they didn't feel the need to fly out to somewhere like Jamaica for a 2 week 'fact finding trip' before setting up the amnesty. :roll:
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yea totally pointless to get rid of knives or guns for that matter.
we have a saying here," guns don't kill people - people kill people."
and "if you outlaw a weapon then only the outlaws will have weapons"
i just don't see the point of outlawing something inanimate. anything can be abused and used improperly. anything can kill,( cars, trees, water, fire, Etc) if we outlawed all of them then where would we be? screwed...
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jkirk wrote:
yea totally pointless to get rid of knives or guns for that matter.
we have a saying here," guns don't kill people - people kill people."
and "if you outlaw a weapon then only the outlaws will have weapons"
i just don't see the point of outlawing something inanimate. anything can be abused and used improperly. anything can kill,( cars, trees, water, fire, Etc) if we outlawed all of them then where would we be? screwed...
Ok then, so do you agree with the outlawing of the inanimate Crack Cocaine in your country?
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nicholas wrote:
jkirk wrote:
yea totally pointless to get rid of knives or guns for that matter.
we have a saying here," guns don't kill people - people kill people."
and "if you outlaw a weapon then only the outlaws will have weapons"
i just don't see the point of outlawing something inanimate. anything can be abused and used improperly. anything can kill,( cars, trees, water, fire, Etc) if we outlawed all of them then where would we be? screwed...
Ok then, so do you agree with the outlawing of the inanimate Crack Cocaine in your country?
wow man what ya talkin' bout.
he he
really that is an interesting question. one i have not really settled in my mind but off the top of my head i would say no. this is the reasons.
1 money spent keeping it out will actually be better spent helping the needy. of course that won't happen it would be funneled into the military. :-(
2 though it would cause a temporary surge of addicts in the end there will be no more abuse than drinking or smoking.
3 the war on drugs will never be won
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nicholas wrote:
Ok then, so do you agree with the outlawing of the inanimate Crack Cocaine in your country?
I doubt it makes any difference. Crack is easier to find than weed. I don't know who'd start out looking for crack then smack himself in the head thinking "Oh, I forgot, it's illegal"
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jkirk wrote:
nicholas wrote:
jkirk wrote:
yea totally pointless to get rid of knives or guns for that matter.
we have a saying here," guns don't kill people - people kill people."
and "if you outlaw a weapon then only the outlaws will have weapons"
i just don't see the point of outlawing something inanimate. anything can be abused and used improperly. anything can kill,( cars, trees, water, fire, Etc) if we outlawed all of them then where would we be? screwed...
Ok then, so do you agree with the outlawing of the inanimate Crack Cocaine in your country?
wow man what ya talkin' bout.
he he
really that is an interesting question. one i have not really settled in my mind but off the top of my head i would say no. this is the reasons.
1 money spent keeping it out will actually be better spent helping the needy. of course that won't happen it would be funneled into the military. :-(
2 though it would cause a temporary surge of addicts in the end there will be no more abuse than drinking or smoking.
3 the war on drugs will never be won
:-D
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T_Bone wrote:
nicholas wrote:
Ok then, so do you agree with the outlawing of the inanimate Crack Cocaine in your country?
I doubt it makes any difference. Crack is easier to find than weed. I don't know who'd start out looking for crack then smack himself in the head thinking "Oh, I forgot, it's illegal"
:lol:
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Big surprise, wow, I can hardly believe it...guess what...another kid got stabbed to death, right in the middle of the knife amnesty. How could that be?
And the little f*ckheads managed to prove my point: they had an argument with the victim [color=ff0000]and went back to their housing estate to get weapons, and then returned to stab the victim.[/color][/i]
Fat lot of good an amnesty is...
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The reason we have amnesties in the UK is just for the police to estimate what exactly they're up against.
The last gun amnesty was designed to get the air pistols out of circulation that could be modified to take real bullets - they ended up with a skip full of Uzis, magnums and an anti-tank gun from WW2!
The knife amnesty gathered up hundreds of thousands of knives, of which most were a little more potent than a breadknife. For example - flick-knives, Rambo-style hunting knives, samurai swords, bayonets, and ninja paraphernalia.
I'd rather my chances with a screwdriver or curvy cheese knife than the above!
:laughing:
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As much as I dislike rumors, psedu-truth, and Michael Moore in general, his movie Bowling for Columbine made me hate the media.
We really do live in a culture of fear perpetuated by the media. It's kind of one of those unanticipated side effects of our experimental democracy. Fear and death get ratings. Networks make more money when they show fear and death. They are less boring then cooking and highway construction I guess. It's the overall drift from science and logic and into low level human emotion that I fear. Maybe people would stop killing each other if they were not so damn afraid.
We had little or no coverage of the Space Shuttle program until 7 astronauts died in a fireball over Texas. Now there is this big upshot in coverage. It angers me, that NOW the media pays attention to this wonderful and inspiring human endeavor.. Just maybe something bad will happen huh guys?
Maybe it comes from our "leaders."
It's election time, time for some legislation to protect the children from the evil, scary world. Time to get tough on CRIME! Time for some terror warnings! Time for some REALLY scary ads in black and white that say how evil the other guy is.
And what's with the bloody germ commercials! Anti-Bacterial this and that. I'm waiting for some company to develop a bubble we can isolate our toodlers in to protect them from bird flu and bad meat.
Here's a clue. Inspire me. Speak about the future, science, and human goodness.
Wow, that was an off topic rant. Sorry.
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@ Hyperspeed
"...The reason we have amnesties in the UK is just for the police to estimate what exactly they're up against..."
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Nonsense. I put it to you that most, if not all of those weapons were handed in by individuals who had no intention to use them in a crime. I can hand in several weapons but it does nothing to make the UK a safer place and it doesn't indicate 'what is out there' that the police are up against.
Even if you could cast a magic spell and take all of the knives out of the hands of every criminal in the UK, they would only need to pop down to the local hardware store the next day and buy what ever they want, whether it is a box cutter or an axe. Or they can just spend a few £ and get a nice carving knife from any supermarket.
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by X-ray:
I put it to you that most, if not all of those weapons were handed in by individuals who had no intention to use them in a crime.
No intention to use them in a crime? With knives, the crime is using them in an argument. Nobody robs a bank with a knife, you can't snipe people down with a knife and normal police on the street are fairly well protected against knife attack.
The crime would only occur if the individual felt threatened enough to pull the knife, it would rarely be used for indiscriminate killing (although the threat to use one in a mugging might be an exception).
Knives are a defensive tool and can be resorted to with ease as opposed to the more difficult diplomatic route in a confrontation.
The general purging of knives out of circulation can be productive.
Master criminals may be able to get hold of knives with ease but taking them out of circulation certainly makes it harder for the teenage gang members.
Although, depending on the roughness of the area a broken bottle, screwdriver etc. can be equally as offensive in close quarters.
Nobody butters their toast with a Rambo knife and it's very design and ergonomics such killing. They're more effective at quick and multiple kills and most importantly they're expensive. By taking these off the street you're destabilising the criminal economy - they have to spend more of their own money to 'tool up' to this specification.
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It doesn't matter whether you think a knife is defensive or offensive. Both ways if the guy feels the need to carry, he won't be handing his knife in.
Also you need to go down the high street more often. Knives that don't have a use in the kitchen are easily bought at hardware stores. And they don't have to be expensive unless they are quality items.
A 'Rambo knife' isn't a popular choice to carry because it is bulky. Most of the stabbings I have seen have been with knives that can be concealed, like a switchblade or a short kitchen knife.
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Well the Rambo style knife (Gerber?) will still be popular due to it's aggresive styling and prestige. These are the knives you see coming out of the amnesty bins, not the serated carrot choppers.
I've never seen a flick knife/switchblade sold in a shop before.
As I said, there is only one use for a Rambo knife and that is killing - nobody butters toast, cuts cheese or peels potatoes with a Rambo knife, therefore their reduction in numbers can only be a good thing.
Apparently it is perfectly legal to carry a knife if it's use to the individual's trade can be proven, like a carpenter etc. So where would a Swiss Army Knife come into this...
... there's one or two people in this world I'd like to murder with a hoof cleaner or a corkscrew!
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@ Hyperspeed
"..Well the Rambo style knife (Gerber?) will still be popular due to it's aggresive styling and prestige. These are the knives you see coming out of the amnesty bins, not the serated carrot choppers...."
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Exactly, that proves my point. You aren't seeing the typical knives used in stabbings because the criminals aren't handing them in.
I think you need to spend some time in an A&E department to see what sort of stab wounds we get. You seem to be applying observations you have seen in action movies to a real problem.
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by X-ray:
Exactly, that proves my point. You aren't seeing the typical knives used in stabbings because the criminals aren't handing them in.
I think you need to spend some time in an A&E department to see what sort of stab wounds we get. You seem to be applying observations you have seen in action movies to a real problem.
I can understand someone of a forensics line being able to, but how do you differentiate between flick-knife wounds and those of a similar width kitchen knife?
Flick knives are a regular feature in amnesty bins too.
I do believe however that the law should really crack down on martial arts shops and these tacky market stalls that sell samurai swords next to pot pourri.
:-D
Maybe it would be better for criminals to be given compulsory martial arts lessons instead of a lengthy prison term for knife carrying - after all, insecurity is not a crime (it's a failure of local law enforcement).
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@ Hyperspeed
"...I can understand someone of a forensics line being able to, but how do you differentiate between flick-knife wounds and those of a similar width kitchen knife?..."
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Actually my expertise isn't stab wounds (but by comparison to my British and American colleagues you could say I have seen a lot). My expertise is gunshot wounds. Ironically I have seen more stab wounds than gunshot wounds (one night between 7pm and 6am we got 22 stab vcitims of which only 2 were stabbed by the same individual). That's Joburg for you.
In terms of the stab wound, it is not so much a question of determining whether the blade was a small spring-loaded one, or whether it was a fixed blade kitchen knife of the same width. For the purposes of this discussion, the distinction relates to large combat or 'Rambo' knives versus kitchen knives.
If you go onto this site, they have all the laws that pertain to the ownership and carrying of knives in the UK.
http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html
Note what they say about the types of knives used in crimes. They agree with me. Take note also that in SA there are very lax laws to do with carrying knives and yet the criminals still choose knives they can conceal or ditch with ease. It seems that in some ways the South African knife-carrying criminal is very similar to the British one.
"...Maybe it would be better for criminals to be given compulsory martial arts lessons instead of a lengthy prison term for knife carrying - after all, insecurity is not a crime (it's a failure of local law enforcement)..."
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You want to make the criminal more dangerous? Why? It's not a question of insecurity. That applies to the carrying of knives for defense (which in practical terms is not possible here in the UK). But if I carry a knife in SA because I feel insecure, that doesn't make me a criminal. You are mixing up defense and offense, but more importantly, you need to understand the concept of criminal intent.
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I just had a look through my research files and found a knife that was used to stab a guy in JHB in the shoulder. This knife is typical of the sort carried by nefarious folk. It was plunged into the victim's shoulder and then twisted so that it snapped. The assailant then dropped the handle and fled.
I X-rayed the victim and took various photographs of the procedure (under local anaesthetic) where they retrieved the other half of the blade. Those pictures are a bit graphic for this board, so I'll not post them. However here is the knife:
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/SnappedKnifeStabbing.jpg)
Not very Rambo, but you can kill someone very easily with that.
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I don't know why you cling onto the 'Rambo' example I gave. There are plenty of other hunting knives, made by Gerber for example, that have a very aggresive and tribal design and yet fold up into something similar in size to a cigarette lighter.
I take it you are based in South Africa right? A country where white people feed black people to lions and have flame throwers fitted to their cars...
:laughing:
Where there is abject poverty I suppose cheap weapons will do, but in those circumstances so will a broken bottle. You say that of those 22 stabbings only 2 were carried out by the same person - could this be because the weapon used was a crude knife like the one above? Imagine if the snapped blade in your photograph had been a stainless steel hunting knife... would the attacker have been encouraged to lunge again, possibly attacking others?
This is why some US states allow you to own an Uzi 9mm providing it isn't capable of automatic fire. The potential for mass murder and effective killing is reduced.
So wouldn't taking say 20,000 knives of all types be a good thing in that it forces those who wish to carry to use something that is probably going to bend, snap, get stuck, rust or tear their testicles off when they tie their shoe laces?
:-D :-D :-D
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@ Hyperspeed
"...I don't know why you cling onto the 'Rambo' example I gave. There are plenty of other hunting knives, made by Gerber for example, that have a very aggresive and tribal design and yet fold up into something similar in size to a cigarette lighter..."
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Well if he has a knife that he thinks is very aggressive and folds up to the size of a cigarette lighter, and if he thinks that is a good knife to attack someone with, then he will. And if he carries a short kitchen knife, he can achieve the same effect. If you think the number of stabbings will decrease if they stop selling short folding knives, you are sadly mistaken.
"...Where there is abject poverty I suppose cheap weapons will do, but in those circumstances so will a broken bottle..."
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Oh, so now criminals in SA use knives like the one I posted, because of abject poverty? For your information stabbings with bottles and all manner of household tools such as screwdrivers and Stanley knives occur throughout the world, in rich and poor communities. These items are always available and there is always a criminal element to be found in any country. That's why we will always have stabbings.
"...You say that of those 22 stabbings only 2 were carried out by the same person - could this be because the weapon used was a crude knife like the one above? Imagine if the snapped blade in your photograph had been a stainless steel hunting knife... would the attacker have been encouraged to lunge again, possibly attacking others?..."
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I never said how many times each of those victims was stabbed. Many were stabbed several times. The point is that each was an isolated victim of a criminal with a knife. There have been many stabbings with kitchen knives where the victims was stabbed multiple times and the knife was left in situ on the final stab, even though the blade had not snapped.
"..This is why some US states allow you to own an Uzi 9mm providing it isn't capable of automatic fire. The potential for mass murder and effective killing is reduced..."
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That Uzi 9mm is no more lethal than a standard pistol with an extended magazine. Do you want to have a knife debate or a gun debate? If you want to have a gun debate start another thread because the legal issues and the right to carry are far removed from the subject of knives.
"...So wouldn't taking say 20,000 knives of all types be a good thing in that it forces those who wish to carry to use something that is probably going to bend, snap, get stuck, rust or tear their testicles off when they tie their shoe laces?..."
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No it won't, because at the end of the day if a guy wants to carry a knife, he will. There are many durable and extremely sharp knives to be found in the kitchen. And if he doesn't twist one of those it doesn't have to snap. But even a high quality combat knife can suffer a snapped tip if it hits a heavy bone like the femur. If he really wants to carry something that won't snap he can get a short thick slot-head screwdriver.
"...I take it you are based in South Africa right? A country where white people feed black people to lions and have flame throwers fitted to their cars..."
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I am not based in SA, but I am South African. As to the rest of your drivel, I suggest you pull your head out of your rectum and attempt to engage in an adult conversation rather than being a perpetual moron.
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by X-ray:
I am not based in SA, but I am South African. As to the rest of your drivel, I suggest you pull your head out of your rectum and attempt to engage in an adult conversation rather than being a perpetual moron.
:-D
A perpetual moron sounds like something NASA scientists worked on and George.W.Bush was the end product.
;-)
I'm not trying to irritate you X-ray, just argue out the possibilities.
I'm sure many of us have seen the aweful stabbing scene in Saving Private Ryan and take a very dim view of knives, aggression and war in general.
Maybe the answer to getting knives off the streets is more awkward than guns but I stand by my philosophy that 'every little helps'.
I'm also a great believer that kids get hooked on weapons from an early age, why when I was a young 'un I remember going to a fishing shop and seeing all the knives, catapults, guns etc. and it didn't take long to work out a way of buying them. Childrens' toy shops are also filled with toy guns, swords etc.
Maybe this generation is beyond help but future generations might be steered away from weapons simply with controls on toys, television and the availability of Hollywood movies.
And martial arts aren't just a good way to defend yourself, they could play an important role in male self esteem, constructive time use and most importantly the burning off of testosterone (the war hormone!).
:-)