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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: Jose on May 17, 2006, 09:26:14 PM

Title: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Jose on May 17, 2006, 09:26:14 PM
Any links ? :-)
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: bloodline on May 17, 2006, 10:00:22 PM
A nice big cheque sent to Apple is the first step :-D
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: amigagr on May 17, 2006, 10:14:30 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
A nice big cheque sent to Apple is the first step :-D


really :-) (http://firewire.org/)
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: patrik on May 17, 2006, 10:19:05 PM
@Jose:

You might find some interesting info here (http://www.linux1394.org/).


/Patrik
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Jose on May 17, 2006, 10:37:51 PM
Didn't knew you actually have to pay to access the docs!!

I just wanted to take a look at it of course.. :-) Will try an emule search...
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Acill on May 17, 2006, 11:54:47 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
A nice big cheque sent to Apple is the first step :-D


Not true. If you join the developer connection at apple.com you can get free access to the OS X stack source code, example code, apps and everything else you need for free. If you need the links let me know. You can also go to www.morphzone.org and read the thread for the firewire stack bounty. I linked to the latest sources in that thread.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: adolescent on May 18, 2006, 12:31:18 AM
@All

The Apple firewire licensing is for the hardware only.  IIRC, they get $.25 (split between Apple and the other firewire partners) per computer with firewire ports.  Software doesn't have to be licensed.

@Acill

Are you sure the ADC usage agreement allows you to use their source freely?  (I haven't seen the source in question, and I couldn't find your link, so I guess it could be GPL)

Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: beller on May 18, 2006, 01:26:26 AM
Since firewire appears to be on its way out, even on the Mac, why?  USB 2.0 seems to have become the standard.  Given we already have USB, wouldn't this be simpler?

Bob
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Acill on May 18, 2006, 01:39:31 AM
ftp://ftp.apple.com/developer/Development_Kits/FireWireSDK22.dmg

Quote
The FireWire SDK for Mac OS X provides developers with tools, example projects, documentation, and debug components both for developing FireWire software and for using FireWire to debug other services. The SDK also contains source code for most of the FireWire stack from Mac OS X Tiger (10.4.6) and Panther (10.3.9). FireWire SDK 22 contains 100% Universal source code and sample code.


Yes you can use it on machines and cards with firewire ports. The fee was paid when you paid for your card or machine.

Quote
    "The first step of the process is to download the evaluation license and then the software (for free). If you want to move forward after the evaluation period, then you enter into a usage agreement - still no cost."

Developers new to FireWire should also understand that the FireWire SDK license does not cover the small patent royalty levied on each IEEE 1394 (FireWire) device at the time of sale and is handled by a company called 1394 LA. Information about the IEEE 1394 patent royalty can found at the 1394 LA website.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: SHADES on May 18, 2006, 02:06:27 AM
@Beller

Just because it's almost an expected standard doesn't make it better. USB2 is not as fast as firewire nor does it have the features of firewire which is pretty much a SCSI standard implemented in serial form.

The other really good feature/s that comes along with firewire is the fact that firewire does not need a computer host to run, just like SCSI and Firewire can also connect up to 63 independent devices including network structure hubs etc.

You can connect up digital camera to printer setups with no memory usage, no cpu interaction and speeds are now used up to
780 Mbits/sec Mind you I think the standard has potential to go over 3 gig. That's faster than any twisted pair cat5e/6a cable.

The only reason for it not taking off is probably, it Apple.  I think they have to pay Apple a small royalty to make hardware or some such thing. It's not much, but it's something.  
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Acill on May 18, 2006, 02:21:59 AM
Quote

The only reason for it not taking off is probably, it Apple.  I think they have to pay Apple a small royalty to make hardware or some such thing. It's not much, but it's something.  


Firewire is far from on its way out. Its in wide spread use in the video production industry. Its on all the latest Macs, even the Intel based ones. As for the Royalty, well its only $0.25 for Apple per hardware device sold. Thats very fair.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: beller on May 18, 2006, 02:57:51 AM
I'm not saying firewire isn't great, but mainstream use ultimately decides what ends up as standards.  The debate on firewire is pretty much done.  While Apple supports them on the computers for legacy purposes, the iPod no longer supports firewire connections on new models.  If you wanted to push firewire you'd continue putting out iPods with this port.


SCSI, betamax...all great standards that have fallen from mainstream use.  

Now for some real fun, lets discuss the HD DVD format war!

Bob
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: weirdami on May 18, 2006, 02:59:49 AM
I don't see where you get that firewire is on the way out on macs. Even if your camera has a USB out, you can't use it for video with iMovie and iMovie comes with all these newer macs you keep seeing. If firewire was on the way out, the firewire requirement would have been removed to make way for its replacement.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: beller on May 18, 2006, 03:49:28 AM
The video user is the only one left still using firewire.  Given the number of direct to DVD cams, I leave you to your own conclusions.

Firewire, for most users, isn't something they use, and even for drives, it's just more portable to have USB 2.0.

Gee, this wasn't meant to start some sort of war!
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: Acill on May 18, 2006, 04:09:23 AM
The direct to DVD cams are a joke and no serious video production work is done on them. you cant edit the video once you record it. It created a closed session DVD. You need to rip the dvd to get the files off, convert the vobs and then use an authoring tool to put them back. Pure crap.

The ipod doesnt use firewire because the new chipset fot the latest versions didnt have it and it was removed to save space and decrease its size further. An iPod doesnt need firewire because once you fill it it only takes very small transfers to  keep it up to date. It was a wast of money for Apple to keep it in.

I will admit in the consumer side of things Firewire isnt that popular, but in the pro side and production side its very much alive.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: motorollin on May 18, 2006, 07:10:58 AM
Quote
SHADES wrote:
USB2 is not as fast as firewire

That's not true. Firewire is 400MBps, USB 2.0 is 480MBps.

--
moto
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: bloodline on May 18, 2006, 07:59:19 AM
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
SHADES wrote:
USB2 is not as fast as firewire

That's not true. Firewire is 400MBps, USB 2.0 is 480MBps.

--
moto


You forget that all transfers on USB must be mediated by the host (i.e. the computer) this causes a significant transaction overhead... then the USB protocol isn't as efficient as Firewire... and finally USB doesn't support Isochronos transfers... which basically means realtime operation, which is requirement in the audio industry, to minimize latency (that said, Gigabit ethernet is actually quite good here, but doesn't provide power).

Lest ye not forget that the Firewire provides MUCH more power via the wire than USB.

Firewire is far from on the way out... it just doesn't have much use for the average user, and it never has.

Since I have so much kit that run off a firewire, I could never buy a Computer/Motherboard without a 6-wire Firewire port.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: uncharted on May 18, 2006, 08:26:07 AM
Quote

beller wrote:
The debate on firewire is pretty much done.  While Apple supports them on the computers for legacy purposes,


Wrong.  Macs have been using a mixture of Firewire and USB since the original iMac.  In fact they were one of the first to really support USB in a big way.  Firewire has found it's market in video, there is no need to push it elsewhere.  I'd still take a firewire external harddisk over a USB one any day.

Dropping firewire on iPods is a sensible business decision.  Saves money, removes complexity, and provides a consistent expereince on both platforms.
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: uncharted on May 18, 2006, 08:30:10 AM
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
SHADES wrote:
USB2 is not as fast as firewire

That's not true. Firewire is 400MBps, USB 2.0 is 480MBps.


Guess how fast Firewire 800 is? ;-)
Title: Re: So what IEEE docs/specs does one need to read to make firewire stack for AmigaOS ?
Post by: platon42 on May 18, 2006, 06:12:22 PM
> then the USB protocol isn't as efficient as Firewire...

I don't know about Firewire (yet), but yes, there is a significant overhead for USB transfers. I'm pretty sure Firewire is more efficient in that case.

> and finally USB doesn't support Isochronos transfers

Sure it does. How you think USB soundcards work? (But you're right, the isochronous transfer is a pain in the ass, try to keep sending audio packets every 1ms!).