Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Jose on May 17, 2006, 08:28:24 PM
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I have 2 HD's in my PC, one for serious stuff, other for er.. other stuff :-D, wich is the one I use the very few times I connect to the internet from home (dial-up). When I do so I allways disable the HD with serious stuff from the BIOS just to be secure.
Now check this out. Last time I coonected just to check mail and within 3 or 4 minutes the "MatrixHasYou" virus got into my machine! It's Win2K with SP4. Ok I got no AntiVirus but a friend of mine has (can't remember wich one) and he got infected too. Maybe his antivirus wasn't updated for a moth- week whatever. The thing is PC's have gotten so vulnerable that "normal" people will never be able to use/maintain one without getting infected, or spend $$ every month!!
Time to get my Amiga online I say :-D Been also thinking about installing Debian on the X86 machine for a long time but I really don't feel like taking the time to learn/get used to yet another OS.
My point is, if FireFox has become popular because it's more secure (ok and with a few cool features like tabs), or because IE has become extremely vulnerable, then maybe it's not that difficult to convince users to at least try different platforms, specially since most of these virus are actually written to steal personal information on credit cards, paypal, ebay, mail whatever account data...
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amiga scene was full of viruses when amiga was the top in the market, so don't blame pcs for this, but the guys which make them. as they say, the scorer gets the cheerleader :-)
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I didn't blame PC's, I think... :-)
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Its always been the same. Viruses, worms, bugs or whatever you want to call them. Anti-virus software is only so good the best thing you can do to protect your computer is get a router and use that as your "hub" and plug into that as it then acts as a very good firewall protecting your computer from all sorts of atacks.
I cant stress it enough NEVER open email atachments unless you know your expecting it from someone and at the very least have a good virus protection program like AVG and run programs like "Spybot search and destroy" and "Addaware" a couple times a month. All are free downloads and will dramaticly reduce problems.
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i've just comment that amiga was popular once... amiga virus warning guide (http://www.vht-dk.dk/vhtdk/amiga/warning/vg.htm)
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@tony
Yeah, I'm more or less informed. The thing is, to stay protected one has to spend more and more amounts of $$. Not so long ago, one did not need AntiVirus at all as long as we knew the software we run wasn't infected. Newer virus take advantage of security flaws of Windows, and I guess not even with a Firewall a Windows machine is completely prottected (what if the Firewall gets hacked :)). But ok, a firewall is all one needs today I guess.
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A little common sense will keep you protected just fine. As others have suggested, get a router and an anti-virus.
The security flaws with Windows simply come with the job. The OS is so wide-sperad and popular that it is a natural target for people to exploit. The same would apply to any other OS, that is if anyone bothered to look for weak points and attach them, as much as they do nowadays as with Windows. :-)
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I remember when Firefox first came out it was the best brouser available because it had no hakers programing stuff to exploit it but now its just as unsecure as explorer as far as I'm conserned but I still like it better.
If the Amiga would still be on top you would have just as many problems with it.
I dont care for MS's buisness tactics but what choice do we truly have. The Mac platform is great but very expencive. and LINX/UNIX dont run alot of the software I use.
I only wish that Commodore would have done things right and kept up with the Amiga (but thats a topic for another tread) :roll:
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I didn't blame PC's, I think...
It's not the PC, it's the lame ass OS your using. :-D
Dammy
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I don't get you guys. I have no antivirus software on my PC, and I haven't gotten a virus in 10+ years. I use Outlook Express exclusively for e-mail (I don't like Firebird).
Firefox is also overrated. It uses many of the same design principles of IE (like, running code directly over the Internet and JavaScript hacks all over the place). If you search forums, you'll find plenty of posts about people having their systems attacked through Firefox. The Open Source community is just hyper-sensitive about that information getting around. If the deisign is flawed, it's just a matter of time before exploits are found. How fast they fix the problem is irrelevant as people cannot be expected to update software on a daily basis.
v1.5 also still has bugs that have been around since 0.8, plus more problems with copy/paste and hotkeys. I'm so sick of this "Open Source is always better" BS. It's the dedication of the developers that matters.
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"I don't get you guys. I have no antivirus software on my PC, and I haven't gotten a virus in 10+ years. I use Outlook Express exclusively for e-mail (I don't like Firebird)."
Ok, but you're using a Firewall for sure...
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What is even more funny is this: If you have your lan cable plugged into your broadband modem, you actually get automaticly infected with viruses during the windows installation process! As soon as windows setup the network, it will be infected unless you are behind a router"NAT" or some other kind of firewall.
So if you do infact have no protection on the router side, you will have to install a firewall on the computer before hooking up the lan cable. Sadly most people dont have a firewall already on a cd, so the only way to get a firewall is to plug it into the internet which means it will be infected already before you got to download it :-(
Pretty amazing for a modern OS to be so unsecure.
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amije wrote:
amiga scene was full of viruses when amiga was the top in the market, so don't blame pcs for this, but the guys which make them. as they say, the scorer gets the cheerleader :-)
Maybe not pcs, but we can certainly blame Microsoft for making a OS with so many open security holes. Even if linux was as popular as windows, it would still be pretty impossible to get viruses the way i described earlier.
It is also a really pain in the a*s to use windows as a regular user without admin or install access. Alot of programs refuse to work without admin priviliges, so that way most people are forced to use it in a really insecure way.
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@Jose
Download either Avast or AVG, both are free for home use and both are very good. A personal firewall like ZoneAlarm would be a good idea as well.
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It never ceases to amaze me how this can be so hard. By following couple of simple advice (most given here already) and you're safe.
- Use NAT (either from the routing network hw, or from linux/bsd). This is the single most effective way to block tons of malware coming thru OS service vulnerabilities. No-one from outside world can access your box directly. This also allows you to safely (re)install Windows without fear of instant infection.
- Keep your Windows updated. This is absolutely crucial for safe system. Enable automatic updates.
- Use antivirus program. If you don't want to pay, there are good free alternatives, for example Avira/AVG/Avast. Have the program autoscan the system regularily.
- Use spyware/adware scanner. Spybot S&D and Ad-Aware SE are both free and very effective. Use both for best coverage. Update the databases and scan the system frequently.
- Use the windows built-in firewall, just in case (maybe you someday need to connect the system to inet directly. This way you won't get infected in that case, either). You can also use Zonealarm if you like.
- Use Firefox. Whatever is said about Firefox vulnerabilities, they are still patched much faster than IEs. Most malware is for IE. Only use IE for sites that you really must (read: sites that suck with Firefox).
- Don't use outlook. If you must use outlook, disable html mail display. 99.99% malware comes thru IE and Outlook (it uses IE engine to display html, so any hole in IE is hole in Outlook). Eliminate both and you're already very safe.
- Don't download and install software/games from questionable sources. Really, don't.
- Never automatically click "Yes" on dialogs. Always read the dialog text, first.
- Offers sounding too good to be true are not true.
- Learn to identify most common scams: chain letters, pyramid schemes, telemarketing scams, 419 frauds (advance fee fraud), bank phishing, stock scams (penny stock scams) etc. If you know the current/old scams, you're much more likely to identify new ones aswell.
- Don't install anything recommended by your friend via email, without checking with him/her first. Viruses/backdoors can forge really convincing fake messages these days, reusing parts of legit previous correspondance.
The above list is incomplete, but this alone is going to keep you safer than 99.99% of the Windows users.
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Use NAT (either from the routing network hw, or from linux/bsd). This is the single most effective way to block tons of malware coming thru OS service vulnerabilities. No-one from outside world can access your box directly. This also allows you to safely (re)install Windows without fear of instant infection.
But most people who have single pc in their home has no router and just instead hook up the cable/adsl modem directly into the lan port. The fact still is that this OS is way to unsecure for the average person to use.
Sadly 90% of the the computer users is far from as experienced as most of us, and thus will not be able to follow all these tasks just to get a reasonable secure OS.
I dont think Windows will get any better before they completly rewrite the OS from scratch and then write it with some focus on basic security.
I personally wish Windows adopted the unix way of multiuser capability. I have a WinXP pc setup for my parents and i gave them a user account with only a very limited set of priviligies, which means they wont be able to change settings, install software and so on. But the sad part is that this also gives alot more hassle, since alot of software wont even run properly without admin priviligies. I also wonder why i should have to login as a admin when using the control panel?? Why dosent it just ask me for the login info for admin priviligies, like most window managers on linux does? If i want to change some setting using kde, it will come up with a popup asking me for my root password, which makes my life a hell of alot easier.
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But most people who have single pc in their home has no router and just instead hook up the cable/adsl modem directly into the lan port.
Even the most simplistic cable/adsl boxes come with built-in NAT these days. Unfortunately it might not be default.
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I've had terrible problems with malware on XP. I used:
-NAT firewall router
-XP firewall
-Adaware/Spybot/...
-Norton anirus
I think most of the problems came from my wife's Chinese webmail services. They would only work with IE, with practically everything enabled. I was already suspicious of course, but how can you tell your wife not to read her email?
The whole system slowed down to a terrible crawl. IE would open all sorts of popups, forced homepage, new toolbars, etc. The malware regenerated annoying programs and files. I tried every malware remover available, and nothing could deal with the problem (did this repeatedly for more than a month). In the end, had to reinstall.
I'm using win98 at the moment. It lacks some usefull features of XP, but it's just not targeted as much. I also find Opera to work quite well for me. It's quite rare that I will have to switch to another browser now. I also convinced my wife to switch to safer email services, but they often don't handle the Chinese encodings properly.
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by dammy on 2006/5/17 17:09:54
Quote: I didn't blame PC's, I think...
It's not the PC, it's the lame ass OS your using.
Dammy
Right, Just install AROS! :lol:
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Even the most simplistic cable/adsl boxes come with built-in NAT these days. Unfortunately it might not be default.
Or go dumpster diving for a junk'd PC that will still work. There are several floppy based router/firewall distros out there so the free box doesn't even need a working HD/CD-ROM.
Dammy
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Jose, try: AVG and Keiro, both free for personal use and both frequently updated.
Really, when people blame the OS or the machine for this kind of trouble its just lazy, do you walk across the road with your eyes shut?
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I can attest to AVG. I have used the free version for years. In fact I was so impressed, I actually bought a license ($19.00 US for 2 year subscription).
The reason I have been impressed with it, is that I have had clients bring me their machines with Norton installed. AVG has found stuff that Norton had missed.
Actually works too good, as my clients never need to return for Virus removal, because I tell them to use AVG.
A Linksys Firewall broadband router (non-wireless) is my favorite for home use, as it is similar to the CISCO style config. I was never comfortable with DLink, but it is a matter of choice I guess.
I tested my broadband ISP to see how long it would take to catch anything by hanging an expendable 'naked' Windows 2000 Advanced Server freshly installed with no Service Packs, no Router/Firewall, no Anti-virus, no nothing. The connection was straight from the Server to the Cable Modem.
As soon as I plugged in, I noticed an almost immediate drop in performance. This machine is an old Celeron 400 MHz, so anything installed will drop performance! As soon as I tried to perform Windows Updates, the machine lost connection due to DoS attacks.
So yes, don't go out in public naked, or you'll catch something that will rapidly cause you denial-of-service!!! Wear a rubber!!!
:lol: :lol:
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I agree with jjans - AVG is great. I usually go the AVG, ZoneAlarm, AdAware and SpyBot S&D route for Windows-based PCs, as well as using Firefox and Thunderbird for browsing and email.
I'd avoid any of the Norton utilities like the plague. They're slow and bloated and cause too many conflicts with other applications. I can't imagine why any home user would go with a Norton product when the likes of AVG are available for free.
And unfortunately, lots of ADSL modems are USB-based and have no internal NAT. Even with a NAT-based solution, I'd still install something like ZoneAlarm for home PCs or the paid-for AVG+firewall combo for computers in small business environments.
Or just use Linux! Ubuntu is getting better and better, though I appreciate there are still Windows-specific applications that don't run well on WINE.
-Ali
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You don't get any of these problems with a Mac :-P
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moto
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I'd strongly reccommend Kerio v2.5.1 firewall
its free, fast, efficient.
I also use KAV antivirus after downloading any .exe files.
But I shutdown all KAV services, disable autostart on bootup and all other similar stuff so it doesn't scan in background every file and eat resources.
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I can't imagine why any home user would go with a Norton product when the likes of AVG are available for free.
-Ali
Marketing is a very powerful influence I guess.
Norton is more suitable for the enterprise environment - so they claim, but I have been able to do much of the same with AVG (ie set up server/client rule configs to be controlled from one remote admin agent).
Please do not think I am a Norton basher however, as I happen to love Ghost and Partition Magic, and use them frequently!
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amije wrote:
amiga scene was full of viruses when amiga was the top in the market, so don't blame pcs for this, but the guys which make them. as they say, the scorer gets the cheerleader :-)
Does anyone remember the SCA virus on Amiga? Not even a week after getting my first A2000 in the 80s, did I start seeing this thing pop-up on the screen. It would blank out the screen and then it would tell you that a wonderful thing had happened, that "your Amiga was alive...another mighty trick from the SCA.". Then, the silly virus would dammage the diskette.
This virus was apparently shipped _with_ the Amigas. There was an article and a fix for it in one of the issues of the AmigaWorld magazine.
I don't believe humans have been able to build the bug-free, defect-free, 100% virus-proof computer yet...
Fester
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I also had to install Nortan antivirus in order to connect my PC to my work's LAN at the time. I agree it's a resource hog, and not all that impressive in performance.
I've used esafe desktop before, with good results. It stopped problems which nailed every other PC on a LAN (each running other antiviral progs). I stopped using it when it was no longer free. That was several years ago. It worked well to detect unkown mal/viral ware by recognising suspicious program behaviour, rather than comparison to a known list. In the case I mentioned above, the other antiviral progs missed recognising the new software, as it was not on a list. I suggested to the sysad of the LAN to use esafe, but he insisted that it's approach didn't work as well as having regular updates of a virus list. Oh well, he could think about that while fixing all his 'puters.
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@Fester
Does anyone remember the SCA virus on Amiga? Not even a week after getting my first A2000 in the 80s, did I start seeing this thing pop-up on the screen. It would blank out the screen and then it would tell you that a wonderful thing had happened, that "your Amiga was alive...another mighty trick from the SCA.". Then, the silly virus would dammage the diskette.
SCA does not wipe anything or damage the disk when it activates. It just spreads, and displays the message every 15th reboot.
By replacing the bootblock of the disk it can destroy game loaders though. But everyone kept the original disks in safe place, write protected, right? :-)
This virus was apparently shipped _with_ the Amigas.
Not with the amiga itself, but many dealers would "spice" the hw deal with bunch of unofficial games (yes, this did happen in some countries).
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dammy wrote:
I didn't blame PC's, I think...
It's not the PC, it's the lame ass OS your using. :-D
Dammy
You can't even blame the OS. It just not safe to go online without an intivirus prg running these days. There are a couple of excellent prgs for windoze, with AVG being my favorite - The free version is excellent, but the pro version is even better (and at $40 for a two year license isn't bad).
BUT - put the blame where it belongs - the hackers who write the viruses (virii ?)
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As MacOS isn't as popular as windows, you won't get viruses as easily, but they do exist, and there's no reason why someone shouldn't send out an email with a mac virus. Or an amiga virus for that matter.
I'm thinking of geting a Mac sometime to replace my intel pcs. (I already have two mac laptops).
Also, I don't use any security crap at all. Yes, I password protect my user account, and my wireless network is protected with the password 'hello' (there's a tip for those of you who go past my house).
I really don't like security software. It moans about not being updated every 5 minutes. It takes up loads of system resources meaning I can't do alot else with the computer while it's running, or at least I can't when I'm using windows xp as that takes up loads of resources. It increased boot times. My amiga 1200 with a blizard 1230/50MHz with WB3.1 boots up in 6 second. Windows 2000 with security software takes ages.
Also, you may end up with dificulty connecting to other computers/sharing stuff from your own computer/using your computer as a web server/ p2p/whatever because it might block stuff.
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but why do everyone say you need antivirus for going online???
you need a firewall and maybe a good browser.. antivirus is of no use if you're without those two, IMHO.
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orange wrote:
but why do everyone say you need antivirus for going online???
you need a firewall and maybe a good browser.. antivirus is of no use if you're without those two, IMHO.
True for the most part, except when your kids get their hands on your machine!
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I'd also recommend Sysinternals Autoruns and Sysinternals Process explorer - helps to find out what is autostarting when your machine boots, and helps to remove the things you don't want.
Has found stuff for me that firewall + Network Associates has missed.
I don't use any Adaware stuff at all, never had a problem with pop-ups etc when using firefox. IE sucks, glad to be rid of it. Thankyou Mozilla :-)
Does anyone know of any court cases of viruses released by industry to attack pirate users of their software (I mean aside from Elbox :lol::lol:) ?
I'm really surprised someone such as Autodesk or Comsol hasn't done this - nothing against those two in particular, I just mean high value IP companies. But I suppose releasing incomplete software then only supplying the service packs to registered users works just as well...
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@ jjans:
I argee that some Norten progs. are great, like Ghost....but Norten didn't develop Ghost, they just bought it....
I made the mistake of buying Norten Internet Security for like $40.00, it's just a big, bloated 'suite' that has the inability to find or remove any virii.....complete waste of money....
Whish I had known then that I could get Avast and ZoneAlarm for free....
Caveat Emptor
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Piru wrote:
SCA does not wipe anything or damage the disk when it activates. It just spreads, and displays the message every 15th reboot.
By replacing the bootblock of the disk it can destroy game loaders though. But everyone kept the original disks in safe place, write protected, right? :-)
Don't misunderstand me. I didn't mean that the diskettes would crash and burn in a puff of smoke and a raging flame of fire. No sparks ever flew out of my disk drives. Thanks for the clarification. I do need to lean to express myself more better. :-)
However, if my memory serves me correctly, something did happen to material on my diskettes. I always thought this virus had something to do with these diskette problems.
Here's a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCA_virus.
"SCA would not harm disks per-se, but would spread to any write-enabled floppies inserted. If they used custom bootblocks (such as games), they would be rendered unusable. SCA also checksums as an original filesystem (OFS) bootblock so would destroy newer filesystems if the user didn't know the proper use of the "install" command to remove SCA ("install df0: FFS FORCE" to recover a 'fast filesystem' floppy)." - Wikipedia
I think I experienced this a few times...Oh well. Dassa long tyme agew.
Fester