Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on May 02, 2006, 06:17:21 PM
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So, what is the future of the Amiga? What does the crystal ball show? A retro curiosity with a handful of UAE users? AROS building steam and getting a foot hole? Tumbleweeds and cobwebs?
Personally? I'm starting to think AROS is the only chance for a NG platform in the projected timeframe of 5 years. As AROS itself seems to be rounding out fairly well, the obvious shorcoming is lack of a software base. What could be the killer app to unit users to rally around it with passion? Or is that too far fetched? Integrated JIT UAE alone would would be the killer app for me..
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Yeah i was thinking of this myself the other day actually,at first i was watching the amiga one and all that stuff like the shark blah blah blah..But right now i use my pc more than my 1200 which id rather not do but lack of a decent browser and what not..So yeah im watching aros more than other things such as AOs4 as this lack of hardware is just a joke and i dont see anything changing..
Things have got very boring around here lately but im still happy with my classic for now i suppose..
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redrumloa wrote:
So, what is the future of the Amiga? What does the crystal ball show? A retro curiosity with a handful of UAE users? AROS building steam and getting a foot hole? Tumbleweeds and cobwebs?
Personally? I'm starting to think AROS is the only chance for a NG platform in the projected timeframe of 5 years. As AROS itself seems to be rounding out fairly well, the obvious shorcoming is lack of a software base. What could be the killer app to unit users to rally around it with passion? Or is that too far fetched? Integrated JIT UAE alone would would be the killer app for me..
ImageFX would be nice, especially if we added DV in and out. When Amithlon was starting out and there were ports to it to use the x86 natively and run faster Kermit and I had a discussion about moving ImageFX to support it. All the PPC modules run so much faster on the x86 that it would have been a neat program over there.
-Tig
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i think basic apps like internet, office apps, games, and stuff like that are a start. general purpose computing type stuff.
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ImageFx run faster on Peg2 than on X86, and I wonder to know how it will be if MorphOS will be ported on PEG3/OSW (Quad Core).
I can see of good thing of both A1 and PEG party, but A1 is lacking of new promised hardware (lastest news said a new batch of unfixed mobo would arrive late May or late June)...
For me and lots of friends, AROS is just an Amiga Based Emulator not as good as WinUAE.
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I'd say the future lays in hobbyism because there is no gap to fill in the computer industry. It has been gone for too long and the name Amiga is associated by most of the world's population with old computers and the long gone commodore era. If I were to see an oppertunity to use the Amiga technology I would surely not call it Amiga. I don't think it would benefit the cause which would be bluntly; making money.
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CLS2086 wrote:
For me and lots of friends, AROS is just an Amiga Based Emulator not as good as WinUAE.
For me the Pegasos and A1 are just an Amiga based emulator not as good as WinUAE. I know why you and your friends don't take it seriously - twenty year old processor architecture grudges that have been completely moribund for longer than most people now can remember.
No one cared when Apple moved to x86, because their fanbase doesn't believe in some bizarre hardware cult that says 68k and PPC are holy and pure and x86 is the work of the devil, it may have been a clunky and outdated architecture in the past, but now it's the best option there is for the desktop market, pretty much because there is no alternative.
Pegasos and AOS4 have a dim future, pretty similar to any dead platform, like classic AOS, the C64, the AtariST, etc. MorphOS will live on longer than OS4 since there is actually hardware available for it but your hardware for that is now stuck forever at the tech level of 2005.
As for a 'market' for an Amiga product, I don't really think there ever was one after C= went bankrupt, outside of devoted fans who will steadily dwindle. A market for the OSs on the other hand is a different matter.
IF Apple hadn't basically decided to terminate the life of the desktop PPC market then MorphOS could have had a pretty bright future as a niche platform like any of the PPC Linux distros, but now I think even they have shadows looming let alone MorphOS. OS4 compounds that problem with the complete bar-stewardse at AInc who seem intent on killing their own platform.
AROS is a nice idea, but until it gets more apps; until it gets useable to the degree that a classic Amiga is, very few of the fanbase will move over to it. Combine this with the 'religion' of PPC that seems to have a very strong hold on some here and I doubt it'll grow a userbase from the few Amiga fans left.
If AROS does become more useable as an everyday OS, which for me means just and office package, a web browser, a paint/art package and a media player, that's what I consider the core apps of any OS that many people use on a constant basis, then I'll definetly have a little harddisk set aside for it. I reckon that's the only way it'll get users.
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CLS2086 wrote:
ImageFx run faster on Peg2 than on X86
No it doesnt, please fact check before you post, and really I'm the wrong guy to argue about this with.
-Tig
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There is no future, the Amiga is dead, DEAD!! :lol: Just kidding :-)
I think even if the OS doesn't make it in the desktop there are tons of special applications where an OS like AmigaOS can make a stand. Stuff like presentations in panels or even industrial stuff. And here PPC has the advantage, not all markets are covered by X86, that's why the PlayStation3, the new XBox (whatever it's called) and Nintendo's Revolutions all use PPC. Pure conincidence ? I think not. I also think people are getting more open to open source software and other platforms. And people are also finally realising that you don't need the ultimate processor (with helicopter fans, or a regrigerator in the back to cool it BTW), with the ultimate gfx and sound to do most things they need on a PC.
@Tigger
ImageFx with DV support would rule completely!!!. EVERY user would upgrade, me included (Version 4.5 studio here) 8-)
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AROS is the only part of the Amiga scene that has much hope for forward development.
It's the only option that doesn't require overpriced, undersupplied, and/or obsolete hardware, and it has the openness and transparency that a niche OS needs in order to maintain it's fan/user base.
And there is a niche to fill. Every major modern OS is bloated and bogged down with features and code that most users will never even need,
There's a place for a lean, simple, easy to use OS that takes advantage of the power offered by modern hardware. AROS certainly isn't the only candidate to fill this role, but it's the only one I can think of that has a significant pre-existing fan base, i.e.. Amiga enthusiasts.
It also helps that it's free and can be sampled from a live cd, and without any investment in hardware.
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by Tigger on 2006/5/2 17:40:40
No it doesnt, please fact check before you post, and really I'm the wrong guy to argue about this with.
I wonder how much you'll continue to hear that after the K10 core is released. With AROS going 64bit by the end of this summer, I'd say ImageFX being ported to AROS-64, a cheap Opteron system should be pretty smoking till the K10 is released (or AROS SMP is released).
AROS-64 (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=21)
Dammy
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Sadly AROS suffers from the decision of not maintaining binary compatibility, nor having a m68k emulation integrated from the start. This means that no existing amiga software can run, except under UAE (and no, it is not trivial to integrate UAE to AROS).
Even though amiga software is really old and mostly outdated, it still beats having no software at all (or having even more crippled replacement).
IMO any attempt to obtain full binary compatibility after the fact are pretty much doomed, or at least it amounts to such a huge workload and rewrites that it can be expected to take 5++ years easily.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what AROS guys are doing, and indeed I also appreciate anyone writing native AROS software. I just feel that it's pretty much reinventing the wheel. Instead of focusing in providing the simplest tools the development could focus on more intersting areas.
So I can't see AROS as "future Amiga", at least not in the current state. In fact I would go even as far as declaring that WinUAE has more potential for that.
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There are indeed some who want integration of EUAE with AROS, and they setup a bounty (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=7) for it. It's getting there, $440 USD. Myself, I find EUAE more then enough, I don't need the vast majority of old Amiga 68K apps, therefore it's of little interest to me. I much rather see apps being ported to run natively, or fresh code being written.
Dammy
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I think the days of a proprietary/semi-proprietary hardware platform are long gone. There's certainly no room for CPU evangelism in todays market, people just want it to work fast and affordably.
If the AROS team can integrate classic hardware emulation, combined with a modern web suite, then AROS will always have a place on my HD.
Commercially, it'd be nice to see an A500 in a joystick at some point, and if Hyperion can get it together to port OS4 to cheap hardware, then I'd probably be up for converting an old PC to an OS4 box, though I wonder if OS4 is still relevant with AROS and UAE both open and freely available?
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Aros does seem to be getting stronger all the time. It certainly has a much stronger following now than it did a year ago. I have downloaded the Aros Max LiveCD and played with it a few times on my laptop, but since Amiga software won't run on it, that massively limits it's usefulness. It is a new platform in itself as opposed to MorphOS or AmigaOS4 which both have varying degrees of built-in 68k and PPC binary compatibility.
Personally I'm still hoping MorphOS gets the success it deserves. Technologically, it is still the most advanced of any of the other alternatives. It is an incredible piece of work from some of the most talented and knowledgable people in the Amiga's recent history.
Realistically, though, I think the future of the Amiga is in a brand for selling PDA games and 30-somethings playing SWOS and Lemmings in UAE for nostalgia. :-)
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Lando wrote:
Realistically, though, I think the future of the Amiga is in a brand for selling PDA games
Groan..
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@CLS2086
Are you saying Aros is a emulator? :-o An emulator is E-UAE or winuae, but Aros is an Operating System.
Maybe you have made a mistake and post on the wrong forum.
Back on topic, i personally think that the only amiga-related os that has a future is Aros, because os4 has his hardware probs, and pegs while hardware available and better than the A1, has many things to do for catching x86 horsepower.
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Piru wrote:
Sadly AROS suffers from the decision of not maintaining binary compatibility, nor having a m68k emulation integrated from the start. This means that no existing amiga software can run, except under UAE (and no, it is not trivial to integrate UAE to AROS).
I think, that not having binary compatibility is not as important today as it has been some years before.
The most of the 68k Software is more than 10 years out of development and for todays needs, it is next to useless now.
The majority of the Software that is still under development today should'nt be to hard to port to Aros.
Some title are already ported, or on the way (Hollywood, frying pan).
Even though amiga software is really old and mostly outdated, it still beats having no software at all (or having even more crippled replacement).
That's true for now, but there are hopeful signs, that the AROS Software Situation may look different in one or two years, since more and more developers become interested in AROS.
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Doppie1200 wrote:
I'd say the future lays in hobbyism because there is no gap to fill in the computer industry....
Ok. Just don't tell Microsoft, Apple, IBM, or Google. If they smell anything that impacts market share and profits it will be found and killed or assimilated ...
My 2 cents. A portable handheld with built in camera and mic that has the capability to be plugged into a monitor and keyboard at home (running the next gen Amiga OS of course). I guess that's the way the computing world is going anyway. A hybrid of a computer and phone/pda. The camera would keep the Amiga true to its multimedia heritage. Automatic and seamless movement from portablity to desktop use. The real line between portable and home computing would be erased and it would simply become a matter of context. When connected to different peripherals ( big monitor, etc ) the experience would scale.
As a musician or videographer you could take your entire system/projects with you and move between locations ( ie home <-> gig ). A portable&dockable Amiga "video&still camera/midi&audio/phone/internet personal computer"!!!
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The future of Amiga will be all about playing around/tinkering with classic C=Amiga hardware/OS, as well as any current or upcoming neo hardware/OS. To expect anything more than that would be quite insane, IMHO. :-)
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The majority of the Software that is still under development today should'nt be to hard to port to Aros.
That is if you have the source code and you dont get killed by endianess bugs and doesnt have 68k asm. Or doesnt depend on closed source 68k libraries and classes...
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CLS2086 wrote:
ImageFx run faster on Peg2 than on X86
You mean compared to x86 under 68k emulation or x86 native?
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@ redrumloa
> So, what is the future of the Amiga? What does the crystal ball show?
I guess Hobby and retro.
MorphOS may still have a limited chance in some embedded sectors. Principally the same might hold true for OS4 and AROS, but I see most chances with MOS.
OS4 is quite dead, since there is no hw available (the announcemnts are very vapouresque), AROS is not bad, but lacks many things, most important the backwards compatibility.
In the retro world there is still some potential, but that is not of my personal interest. I like fast maschines. I'll continue with MorphOS.
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As always with these type of threads, my vote still goes to AROS.
I know there are a bunch (small bunch) of people who use their A1s with the OS4 pre-release and Peg users out there who are quite happy. I also know that there are a lot of people who are happy playing with their classics too, but for whom (either by availability, cost, etc...) neither of those solutions is viable. This leaves AROS.
Some people are probably like me, got stuck in Windows land for a while before moving to a Mac or Linux, or just went straight to Linux after their Amiga time and are happy there. I wasn't happy with Windows and I wasn't / still am not happy with Linux. Even my Mac as much as I think it kicks ass, still leaves me wanting an Amiga like system. They all work but there is something missing to the overall design and feel of the system. Simplicity perhaps? Elegance (or what I perceive as a more elegant solution...) This is where I think AROS has the most potential - former users or people who are looking for something lighter, faster, and tighter in general than Linux. My install of FedoraCore 4 on my PC runs well enough, but I admit it gets less use than UAE on my Mac. Why? There just isn't that much compelling for me to do in Linux. Everything I can do there I can do faster and easier on the Mac...I still enjoy tinkering with Linux but there are times when I just turn away from it and leave it off for a couple weeks when something ticks me off or I get sick of having to deal with the bloat and dependancies to install anything that wasn't targeted specifically to my kernel/desktop/blah blah blah with a package. On the flip side, my Mac doesn't offer me the freedom to tinker as much as I like to but has been rock solid for me.
I watch AROS daily for changes, news, new apps. I come to Amiga.org daily to see if there is any news on the OS4 / Morph fronts. Of any of them, I think AROS has the most news to report throughout the year. I got sick of hoping, praying, begging for something to be done right with Amiga since Commodore as I know most everybody else has.
The reasons for AROS existing are the same for any other alternative OS...there are people out there who know things could be done better/simpler/faster/challeng of doing it... take your pick. Same goes for SkyOS, ReactOS (Do windows better than windows?),etc... Progress may be slow, but I think its moving faster than the alternative "Amiga" choices.
GO AROS GO!
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itix wrote:
you dont get killed by endianess bugs and doesnt have 68k asm. Or doesnt depend on closed source 68k libraries and classes...
The only one scared of endianess is Benji, and he can't write any code, so I'm not sure why you guys take a law clerks point of view on the matter anyways. ImageFX has lots of endianess issues and yet miraculously big chunks of it were converted for plugins for Aura and Photoshop. How was this accomplished. According to Benji, magic, according to those of us who did it, simple coding practices, the same things I do 50% of the time we change a hardware platform for our embedded systems. Its not Rocket Science, I've done Rocket Science, this aint near that hard.
-Tig
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@Tigger
If you ported ImageFx to AROS that easily I can only agree.
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Like most others, I see AROS as the future Amiga. The things that I think would give it the biggest interst boom would be:
1) Define a reference platform. For example a Via board. I'm not saying there shouldn't be drivers for other hadware, but it would help to be able to say X hardware will run AROS.
2) E-UAE. The better it is and the more integrated it is the better. Perhaps a E-UAE package system, so you just add your ADF to the pre built package and away you go.
3) Office suite. Actually just a word processor and spread sheet.
4) Web Browser (e.g. Firefox)
5) A TV mode. What I mean by this is have IR software, and allow the system to be booted in such a way that you can boot directly to a gamepad/Remote controlled UI. This is sort of done with MythTV, but since Linux is where it is, MythTV and the remote control software is a patch at this point.
I know that AROS is unlikely to ever have the kinds of games that XBox or Playstation have, but there are a lot of people that would love to be able to turn on their system, use their controller to pick a game, and sit and play a 2D puzzle, platform or shooter on their TV.
The one niche that has not been filled is what the old C-64 had. A programmable game system.
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If the Amiga had (and that's the operative word here, "had") a future, it was in it dying a healthy death after C='s bankruptcy and ending up as a wholly emulated platform or as a pure hobbyist's box like the C= 8-bit scene.
Fact is, the fanatics, the "religious zealots" who even now make claims from Bizzaro World about the Amiga, what it can do, what it's going to do, not to mention the runaway infighting between two camps of people (about 1000 each) devoted to their overlords (both of whom are, oddly, named "Bill") make the Amiga a laughingstock.
"Amiga Persecution Syndrome" and the passive/aggressive...well, no, check that, just the plain old aggressive attitude of Amiga users keep the Amiga from being a fun hobby. The ones who still think the Amiga is poised to take over the computing world :crazy: and yet refuse to apprehend that the Amiga's operating system has miles to go before it can even be considered a contender amongst dark horses like BeOS (or whatever it's called these days) pretty much ruin things for anyone interested in seeing the Amiga make some headway.
Look, the Amiga, as a viable commercial entity is DEAD DEAD DEAD. But then so's the C64. So's the Spectrum. So are Apple 8-Bit systems. So's the Atari ST line. Yet all of those communities flourish and are enjoyable to look over. Nobody in those communities has delusions that they're going to topple Microsoft in "two more weeks" and it'll be "B-I-G!". Consequently they're more fun to watch and participate in.
If the Amiga has a future it's without the zealots, who quite frankly need to go off and find something else to prostelytize about.
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/humor on
My next "Amiga" is going to be a PS3. Don't bother me with all the details that have been discused before. I'm going to spend my $$$ on the next Sony, play some cool games and wait for a port of AROS to show up for PS3. I may be waiting a long time, but I'll be waiting while playing several cool on-line games and it's not like I'm not used to "2 more weeks" by now.
/humor off
No wait, I guess I wan't joking after all.
Plaz
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@B00tDisk
I think you're spot on. What was needed was for one of the various owners to say, "Right that is it Amiga is dead, no more. No licences, no IP sales. It's over, go out there and enjoy the sunshine"
Perhaps then everyone would have stopped waiting about for the next miracle and would have taken control over the platform themselves. There probably would have been splits and wars (there always is) but it probably would not have been as bad as what has been endured. Something like AROS would have flourished in such an environment.
I still think that there was enough momentum and market back in the late 90's (even as late as 2000 possibly) for there to be a sustainable platform. All that was needed was a little focus.
B00tDisk wrote:
If the Amiga has a future it's without the zealots, who quite frankly need to go off and find something else to prostelytize about.
Is there anyone else left though? If feels sometimes that the biggest proportion of the community are complete saddos. :-(
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i think aros could be a success, not a windows beater but deffinitly a success. look at how many people want an alternate os and tried several, but couldnt use them because they were too complex like linux, or pretty useless (pretty but useless) like bunches of others. most of the alternate os's started out with a tiny fan base, maybe a dozen people or so. aros is starting out with quite a bit. lots of people trying it out, developing etc.
also consider that most os freindly apps in open source and public domain should port over very easily as well as many linux/unix stuff needing relatively minor work to port.
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i think aros could be a success
I agree. I have a side question too that came to mind while reading another thread about programming. How compatible is AROS with progs compiled from Amiga specific languages like AMOS and E?
Plaz
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How compatible is AROS with progs compiled from Amiga specific languages like AMOS and E?
It is not binary compatible (except 68k build of AROS). AROS is compatible on the source code level.
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Is there anyone else left though? If feels sometimes that the biggest proportion of the community are complete saddos.
For me saddos are the people using windows and be pleased about it :crazy:
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It is not binary compatible (except 68k build of AROS). AROS is compatible on the source code level.
Makes sense. So are compilers such as gcc the only native compilers for AROS for now? Any thing else ported yet?
Plaz
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@uncharted, @B00tDisk:
I totally agree, as someone who also likes to muck arround with old computers and has used amigas years ago, I feel that all the feeling of the amiga making its 'big comeback' are just spoiling it for everyone. Why can't anyone just be happy with the thing as a hobby machine? :-?
I must admit I haven't seen the point of AROS as it's just another curiosity to me. I did try it a couple of times and didn't see what all the fuss was about. Maybe I've just gotten used to the PC but for me, the OS I use is a means to an end for what I want to do. Mucking arround with an OS for the sake of it had never had the appeal to me as mucking arround the programming and compairing different processor architectures.
BTW, does AROS use memory protection, does does it forsake that for source compatibility with old AmigaOS programs.
@Fransexy_:
Now that I find offensive:roll:, you use what works for you.
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/rant mode on
The big problem with OS3, OS4, MorphOS and AROS is (specially with the last one) lack of killer apps, not lack of fast hardware.
AROS for big endian machines (like PPC or ARM configured in bigendian mode) may be able to run 680x0 binaries transparently but most of AROS devs aren't interested in compatibility because they no longer use any amiga program (they use linux or windows).
The old 680x0 apps are better than nothing and many of them are still useful.
AfA is quite important because it helps to improve AROS because lots of people will use it everyday (and the bug reports can end up improving the AROS source tree)
An AROS-PPC release for PowerMacs with builtin 680x0 emulation and a MorphOS wrapper may be enough to keep people interested on running old apps happy (like me).
The biggest incoherency I find in most of AROS developers claims is that they aren't interested on running old apps. If that's true why are you using an obsolete design without memory protection, multiuser, etc? With AROS you have the worst of both worlds: you lack 680x0 compatibility but you also lack memory protection.
The only AROS advantage is that it is free and portable, but as people is more interested in reinventing the wheel (do we really need 4 different SDL flavours? yes... one done by Gabrielle Grecko for OS3.x 680x0, another one for AROS, another one for MorphOS, another one for OS4). And the AROS team instead of merging their code with the main tree of various MCC classes at sourceforge decide that it's better to merge the changes by hand each time an mcc class is updated (we are lucky Geit is trying to adapt SDI includes) and keep an AROS-only source in their repository.
Then they decide that the AmigaOS handler system sucks and implement their own incompatible system. I don't care if it's better or not, but if you think that it's better why don't you also implement memory protection and get rid of the old amigaos3.x api? at least most of AROS developers think that old amiga apps suck, so why keep a sucky API?
OS4 lacks hardware and due to the stupid Amiga Inc licenses will have no future unless the situation changes and hardware appears. MorphOS situation is better in the hardware side but it's clear that money is required to materialize MOS-team dreams about Q-Box (something I still don't understand is why the team implemented the drivers inside of the not-memory-protected A-Box instead of making a generic driver that wrapped its calls to the real drivers inside the Q-Box. At least the keyboard driver would have been nice so you could reset MOS when it hangs completely. That leads me to think that the q-box is so small and light that it almost doesn't exist)
AROS has some future, but without apps and with the current attitude of developers that give their backs to the current amiga community (that is also splitted also thanks to MOS/OS4/AROS coders who prefer to make own branches instead of adding their code to the main branch and having all versions created automatically) it will have even less future. Some open minded developers have ported their apps to AROS but I rarely see AROS developers porting themselves their apps to other oses (including os3).
Examples of community split:
-2 branches for Mplayer, one for OS4 and one for MOS when 98% of code is the same.
-4 different SDL versions (OS3, AROS, MOS, OS4)
-AROS devs not adding their changes to the sourceforge MCC classes that they use in Zune
-AROS devs not releasing native Zune versions for OS3 regarless of the fact that it started being developed on 68k
-Developers who think that aminet sucks and that everyone should check out their cool webpages who don't upload their stuff to aminet.
-4 or 5 pci libraries (AROS, Prometheus, Mediator, CyberPCI, CyberPCI for MOS, OS4 expansion library PCI interface... isn't great rewritting 4 times the same driver?)
-4 or 5 versions of expat.library, some of these released various times for the same OS (this is caused probably due to authors not using aminet...). I've seen 2 or 3 different expat versions for 680x0, 2 for OS4, another one for MorphOS, another one for AROS. Instead of making a single port and adding some ifdefs or using SDI headers we have various sources spreaded around the world...
-Ignorant AROS users who think that AfA is useless for AROS although it's the only way of testing it with real AmigaOS apps.
UAE for AROS is a worse compatibility solution than WinUAE for Windows. I mean, I prefer to run Windows+WinUAE than AROS-x86 and EUAE.
An aros big endian release for PPC or ARM (in big endian mode) would please some of us if it included 680x0 compatibility and also a MOS wrapper.
Anyway, we lack killer apps (and common apps like a decent browser. Marcik will deserve an statue when he finishes his KHTML port). That's the real problem.
For AROS/OS3/OS4/MOS most of hardware is fast enough. But all the hardware is useless without software. OS4 and MOS at least have 680x0 compatibility and can run useful apps.
Unless everyone that is writting apps for OS3/OS4/MOS turns their head to AROS and starts porting their software it will be a beautiful, fast, portable and efficient -useless- toy
When my amiga interest is low I concentrate on scene stuff (coding classic gfx effects, watching demos and intros...) and that keeps me happy.
Looking at AROS depresses me as much (or more) than OS4 or MOS
/rant mode off
The best thing an user or developer can do is simply enjoying what you have using it to the maximum instead of browsing forums or thinking about the future of the platform. It's just a computer, enjoy it now that it's working, before the capacitors acid eats all the motherboard wires...
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@Plaz
VBCC port probably exists but I dont know any other compilers available to AROS. Maybe some Basic languages (sdlbasic?) or script languages are available. No idea really.