Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: CdreCommodore on April 04, 2006, 07:41:49 PM
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I found this today while searching around eBay. The guy that's selling the Admin Edit: No need to give him free advertizing with Amiga disk images and roms has branched out and is now selling a DVD of Amiga demos. This is a video DVD, not a data DVD-ROM.
While Googling for information about his DVD, I found this: Here's the thread on another message board (http://www.amigagames.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1336&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=0) where he talks about making and selling it (scroll down to message #13).
I wish the Mindcandy (http://www.demodvd.org/) guys would hurry up and finish their (legit) Amiga demo DVD project. Are there any other fan compilations out there besides the Amiga Museum DVDs that can be downloaded? :-? There is a link at that other message board to two C64 demo DVDs (http://www.stefan-uhlmann.de/cbm/DVD/DVD.html) you can download via BitTorrent. :-)
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There are loads of these on eBay. I keep reporting them when I see them, but I don't know how much eBay really care :roll:
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moto
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I have to agree. It's a shame that people are doing this. No wonder why Amiga and Comodore went under as well. I remember that in Toronto you could rent games and programmes and it, of course, it had no copy protection.
It just never ends. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
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Maybe I'm missing something here but, what exactly makes this illegal/pirated? The first auction (PD collection) seems to have PD only games, and he mentions there are NO rom images included for the emulators.
The Demo DVD, well, Demo's are PD, and have always been PD. He obviously took a lot of time making this, looking at the DVD menu there was quite a bit of work making these.
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I cant see what the problem is making a video dvd of scene demos at all! There was another one made a while ago by someone else which i downloaded and was a nice little production.
I mean comeon, all the demos are freely (and legally) downloadable from just about where ever you want. Also, this guy obviously spent time working on this, and good for him if he wants to sell it to people looking for a quick nostalgic fix!
Id probably do a similar thing myself if i could be bothered..
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The problem, in my not so humble opinion, is taking the work of others and selling it for a profit. I sincerely doubt that demo creators created content so that other people could take and make money from it.
The Mindcandy guys get permission from the original groups to use their content. Also, they don't just slap the demos on a DVD--they spend quite a bit of time and money collecting authenticate hardware to run the demos on. They've put quite a bit of effort into doing high-quality PAL-to-NTSC conversion, and they add other features like bonus documentaries and commentaries. The video quality on the Mindcandy Vol 1: PC Demos is amazing, and the disc is double-sided so you get four hours of content. When you watch it, you know where your money went.
I have no problem with downloading fan compilations like those demo video DVDs and even DVDs full of old Amiga software, or paying someone for blanks and postage, but it's people trying to make money from it that ruins projects like TOSEC, CAPS (or SPS, or whatever it's called now), etc.
I ripped and shared my collection of Aminet CDs some time back (this was after they stopped making the CDs, please no flames :-) ), and one of the guys I shared them with started selling them on a web site. I really felt like an idiot for wasting my time sharing almost 150 gigabytes.
And finally:
:horse:
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For gods sake, does it really matter. If the original coders dont like it then they can sue. Lets get a life in here and concentrate on things to come rather than the past.
Personally I am now gonna order one. It seems like a lot of work went into creating the compilation and I am just grateful that someone has gone to that effort for profit or otherwise.
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p.s. I will also get it because it will really piss off some of the pedantic peeps in here.
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Tahoe wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here but, what exactly makes this illegal/pirated? The first auction (PD collection) seems to have PD only games, and he mentions there are NO rom images included for the emulators.
The Demo DVD, well, Demo's are PD, and have always been PD. He obviously took a lot of time making this, looking at the DVD menu there was quite a bit of work making these.
I agree completely. Although I can count the number of my own scene releases on the fingers of one hand I honestly wouldn't care if they appeared on a DVD (not that anyone would want to... ;-)).
Anyway, it beats all the '17-bit' / 'Scene Archive' / 'Scene Storm' / 'Demomania' / 'Demo Collection' / 'Demos are Forever' et al CD compilations that nobody seemed to have a problem with.
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DaBest wrote:
I have to agree. It's a shame that people are doing this. No wonder why Amiga and Comodore went under as well. I remember that in Toronto you could rent games and programmes and it, of course, it had no copy protection.
It just never ends. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
Ummm, poor management killed Amiga/Commodore :horse:
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I agree bad management killed the Amiga. WindowXP and other flavours has to be the most pirated OS in history by miles, and yet they still seem to turn a buck or two.
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I suspect Microsoft earn most of the Windows revenue through Corporate Licencing, Education and small business not home users.
I doubt Windows is that much of a cash cow - they have taken over 5 years to migrate to the next version and they have had to invest heavily during this time to remedy XP security flaws. An OS takes large revenue to develop these days which is a real testiment to Hyperion.
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Hmmm, I read this thread after I was informed of it and COULDN'T BELIEVE what the first 3 people who posted were spouting about!!!
Amiga Demos were released into the Public Domain, I am not even offering the code for sale, I am offering a nostalgic bit of video. So please explain how this is piracy????
As for my other Amiga related DVD, well its full of PUBLIC DOMAIN software. No kickstart roms, no commercial games, just PD from my personal stash, that I decided to convert into ADF's and create a compilation, heck there are even some of my own PD creations on there. So just what is your problem here?
The only reason I have them listed at such a cost is to cover listing fees, paypal fees, media costs, postage costs, printing costs and of course my own hard work that went into these.
It was supposed to be a kind of service for people who had Amigas in the old days, but didn't have the means of reliving their youth, by which I mean an Amiga / Emulator and the demo files. You must remember, not everyone who loved the Amiga and the Demo Scene is still 1337, many people wouldn't have the first idea about running an emulator or even creating a DVD.
And another thing, the whole essence of the Demo Scene was to show off what you could make an Amiga do and things like this can only help to spread the word about the talents of the demo coders.
There, thats my rant over.
I really cannot see what your problem is here, and whats more I seem to be getting blamed for single-handedly bringing down the Commodore empire!!
Its people like you 3 that actually damage the scene, because everyone is sh*t-scared of being called a theif / pirate / etc..
PS I didn't even know about this Mindcandy thing until I read it here. I made a similar thing on VHS back in the mid 90's and thought it would be cool to do a more up to date one using the technology of the day. Who says though, that my DVD and the Mindcandy DVD's cannot exist in the same market? Aren't we living in a democracy where freedom of choice is the order of the day.
Whups, I'm ranting again. Sorry for the length of this post, but I just had to get it off my chest.
Thanks for reading, I will shut up now.
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Good point.
If it is downloadable by anyone, then use it as you want. As long as your not taking credit that you made it all yourself, then it should be fine. I was actually impressed by some of the demos on there. :-D
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Well actually I am the creator of the DVD, I didn't just download it I spent a weekend making it, and was so pleased with the outcome, I decided to sell it.
All of the demos have their credits intact, so I am not claiming credit for them as my own either.
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kd7ota wrote:
If it is downloadable by anyone, then use it as you want. As long as your not taking credit that you made it all yourself, then it should be fine.
That's not true. Just because it's freely downloadable from a web site doesn't mean you have the right to redistribute it, even if the software is considered to be freeware.
I have seen lots of software on Aminet which states that it is not to be distributed on CD compilations. Did you check all of these when compiling your CD? And for the ones which stated they were not to be compiled and sold on, did you contact the authors and get permissions?
I agree that this is not as bad as people selling compilations of commercial Amiga games, but even so, you cannot assume you have the right to redistribute other people's work just because it was available to you on the Internet.
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moto
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Yes, I did consider that actually.
These programs were not downloaded from Aminet, they were sourced from PD houses back in the mid-nineties, like I said they are all from my personal PD collection. These files all came from legitimate PD houses who distributed them on disks for 2 to 3 pounds each.
As such I can vouch with quite a bit of certainty that the content on my DVD is freely distributable.
Isn't this discussion all getting a bit pedantic and silly now?
Why don't you go and hound some pirates or something, and get off my goddamn case?
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Sorry but the same applies with software from PD houses. Some developers just don't want their software bunged on CDs/DVDs as part of a compilation. They may choose to distribute through the 'net, or by PD houses, but still prefer for their software not to be distributed on CDs.
I understand what you're trying to do by compiling your collection so others can benefit. But you can't assume developers are happy for you to do this.
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moto
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On the other site you said:
(I'm betting they wouldn't be complaining if it was offered as a free download though) Bloody hypocrites!
I said exactly that. Why is that hypocritical? I have downloaded and enjoyed many fan compilations of demos. The creators of that content created and distributed it for free, and there's no reason why the content can't be redistributed.
But taking their content and moving it another medium to try to sell it without their approval is lame.
You had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD right now. There's no way it costs that much to burn five discs and mail them (discs only) to people in your own country. You were offering them for 1 GBP to your friends at the other forum, and you turned down someone else who asked about it and told them to buy it from you on eBay.
That's not something a person does because they're a fan, that's something they do because they want to make a few quid.
If you're just trying to show off what you can do with the Amiga and spreading the word about the talents of demo coders, why not make use of this big distribution center for bits called the Internet? You could spread it around without selling it. Why not do it?
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Remember the Spaceballs demo CD available 10 years ago?
I heard that the Spaceballs crew did not do anything on it and dit not get any money either. And that was a commercial CD (it was later offered for free with Amiga Format).
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I just want to add my thoughts again. Thank you so much for the effort of putting together such a cool DVD :)
I author DVD's myself and understand completely how much effort and time goes into completing a nicely put together title.
As for the PD / Freeware / Shareware / bollocks argument I repeat, if any of the authors or coders don't like it they will probably be sending solicitors letters as we speak. So thats that!
Also I am going to order a copy for the following reasons;
1: Cos it is a cool compilation.
2: Cos it will really piss off some of the peeps in here.
3: (see 2:)
4: Err...oh I said that in 3:
Keep up the good work, and as Fletch used to say "don't let the {bleep}s gring you down" :-D
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I just want to add my thoughts again. Thank you so much for the effort of putting together such a cool DVD :)
I author DVD's myself and understand completely how much effort and time goes into completing a nicely put together title.
As for the PD / Freeware / Shareware / bollocks argument I repeat, if any of the authors or coders don't like it they will probably be sending solicitors letters as we speak. So thats that!
Also I am going to order a copy for the following reasons;
1: Cos it is a cool compilation.
2: Cos it will really piss off some of the peeps in here.
3: (see 2:)
4: Err...oh I said that in 3:
Keep up the good work, and as Fletch used to say "don't let the {bleep}s gring you down" :-D
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p.s. Just a thought, but why not go after the guy on ebay who was selling two DVD's stuffed to the brim with Amiga software cleverly disquised so that only peeps in the know would know what it was. (Clue to see if you can fiqure, 68k was mentioned)
Anyhow we bought 4 copies (for legitimate backup reasons)
Oh, and the Fletch quote that was mucked up by the censor was "Don't let the (children of un-married parents) grind you down.
:-D
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oops, sorry for double post, tired. Or is it cos the Amiga gives you twice at much fun while some of its supporters are twice as annoying? Dunno. One of lifes mysteries I guess. :-o
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wish the Mindcandy guys would hurry up and finish their (legit) Amiga demo DVD project. Are there any other fan compilations out there besides the Amiga Museum DVDs that can be downloaded? There is a link at that other message board to two C64 demo DVDs you can download via BitTorrent.
So what is the difference in the legal status with this project and the Mindcandy one? Do the mindcandy project somehow get permission from all the demo makers? I dunno what this guy is selling them at, but i thought it was perfectly legal to distribute public domain stuff, as long as he/she only take charge for the media costs itself and shipping..
I was thinking of doing something similar myself, but instead host them on the internet for free in either mpeg2 or some mpeg4 format. I dont see how this would be illegal, as long as i dont make a profit from it. All i want to do is make them avaliable for the people without an Amiga.
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j_tramiel wrote:
Hmmm, I read this thread after I was informed of it and COULDN'T BELIEVE what the first 3 people who posted were spouting about!!!
Amiga Demos were released into the Public Domain, I am not even offering the code for sale, I am offering a nostalgic bit of video. So please explain how this is piracy????
As for my other Amiga related DVD, well its full of PUBLIC DOMAIN software. No kickstart roms, no commercial games, just PD from my personal stash, that I decided to convert into ADF's and create a compilation, heck there are even some of my own PD creations on there. So just what is your problem here?
The only reason I have them listed at such a cost is to cover listing fees, paypal fees, media costs, postage costs, printing costs and of course my own hard work that went into these.
It was supposed to be a kind of service for people who had Amigas in the old days, but didn't have the means of reliving their youth, by which I mean an Amiga / Emulator and the demo files. You must remember, not everyone who loved the Amiga and the Demo Scene is still 1337, many people wouldn't have the first idea about running an emulator or even creating a DVD.
And another thing, the whole essence of the Demo Scene was to show off what you could make an Amiga do and things like this can only help to spread the word about the talents of the demo coders.
There, thats my rant over.
I really cannot see what your problem is here, and whats more I seem to be getting blamed for single-handedly bringing down the Commodore empire!!
Its people like you 3 that actually damage the scene, because everyone is sh*t-scared of being called a theif / pirate / etc..
PS I didn't even know about this Mindcandy thing until I read it here. I made a similar thing on VHS back in the mid 90's and thought it would be cool to do a more up to date one using the technology of the day. Who says though, that my DVD and the Mindcandy DVD's cannot exist in the same market? Aren't we living in a democracy where freedom of choice is the order of the day.
Whups, I'm ranting again. Sorry for the length of this post, but I just had to get it off my chest.
Thanks for reading, I will shut up now.
If what you say is true, then i totally agree with you and respect what you are doing. This sounds perfectly legal to me and actually is something that i think is a good thing for the community. If this would be illegal, then what about the amiga demoscene archive, back2roots and all other websites hosting public domain stuff?? Sad how certain people like to scream piracy over everything..
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The problem, in my not so humble opinion, is taking the work of others and selling it for a profit. I sincerely doubt that demo creators created content so that other people could take and make money from it.
I dont know what he is charging for these demo dvds, since the link was removed by a moderator. But if he is telling the truth, then he is simply not making profit but instead only take a charge for the media costs, shipping and such.. This is what they do with free linux distributions as well.. You can download it for free over internet, but you must pay a small charge to have a cd shipped over to your address. Without this charge, this would not be possible without getting economically ruined.
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Hey, do you think if we keep "winding the pedantic sod's up" that we can get to over 50 posts? :lol:
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@Tomas
Do the mindcandy project somehow get permission from all the demo makers?
Like I said, yes. See: http://www.demodvd.org/contents
I was thinking of doing something similar myself, but instead host them on the internet for free in either mpeg2 or some mpeg4 format.
Requesting DVD ISO image, please. :-D
If this would be illegal, then what about the amiga demoscene archive, back2roots and all other websites hosting public domain stuff??
None of those sites charge you for the content.
I dont know what he is charging for these demo dvds, since the link was removed by a moderator.
Like I said, he had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD.
You can download it for free over internet, but you must pay a small charge to have a cd shipped over to your address.
You can't download this guy's DVD.
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Oh my God!!!. What is all this fuss about?. We are talking about demos and PD stuff, not commercial games or applications, so what's the problem?. The guy offering it only sell it at a media/production cost, so i doubt he will become millionaire in the process. Really some people in this community never cease to amaze me.
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Like I said, he had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD.
Does that include shipping? if not, then i agree that this is a bit much if this is supposed to be a non profit project, unless he pressed the cds professionally instead of burning.
I can understand why Mindcandy must ask permission, since that is more of a commerical project.
The sad part there is that alot of the groups are now broken up and probably very hard to reach these days.
I already bought their pc demo compilation a couple of years back. My only complaint there was that it was ntsc only, which is in my opinion a very inferiour standard compared to pal. Good to see that they are now doing it in both pal and ntsc format.
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_ThEcRoW wrote:
Oh my God!!!. What is all this fuss about?. We are talking about demos and PD stuff, not commercial games or applications, so what's the problem?. The guy offering it only sell it at a media/production cost, so i doubt he will become millionaire in the process. Really some people in this community never cease to amaze me.
Some people just love to :horse: Gives them a break from flogging something else :-D
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yeah, every now and then there is a thread here: OMG, *PIRATES* selling adfs on ebay, along with kickstarts... let's report, it is piracy! Don't you think it is TOO LATE to worry about piracy? Do you think any author/company give's a rat's ass for 10+ year old software? Or you have the false satisfaction of thinking u do the "right thing" ???
I could not care less about dvd's with demo videos, the demos themselves, adf's, roms, you name it. Those ppl are doing a favor, making all this available to the public.
Do you report to the respected isp's sites that have roms,adf's etc??? have you any idea how many sitres are offering that content? Don't you think that if anyone cared, most would be closed and we would hear about that?
find something else to {bleep} about....
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Ok, let's get one thing straight, demos are NOT public domain even if you're allowed to copy them for free. So that means you're not allowed to do whatever you please with them.
I usually have no problem with my demos and stuff being included on DVD's, but I do think the authors of these DVD's should have the common courtesy of asking for permission, especially if they're going to sell these disks, no matter what amount of money is involved. And really, I don't care how much time someone spent on preparing the DVD, because that usually doesn't come near the time people spent on the demos themselves.
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@keropi
Your personal opinion certainly is your own, but amiga.org doesn't tolerate copyright infrigiment or piracy.
(I'm not saying that this particular case would be, but it is a bit shady since money is asked)
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I usually have no problem with my demos and stuff being included on DVD's, but I do think the authors of these DVD's should have the common courtesy of asking for permission, especially if they're going to sell these disks, no matter what amount of money is involved.
So what should you then do when this said group does not exist anymore?? let the demos vanish from the face of the earth? Taking charge for the shipping and media costs does not equal selling, since the person who is doing it earn zero profit for the job of transferring the demos to video. Also this would mean that it would be just as illegal to host most of these older demos on the internet for free, as it does not state in the copyright that these files can be hosted on the internet medium. So i guess you should ask these non existing groups for permission for that as well then :-x
The simple fact is that most demos are released in public domain for free, and can be distributed as much as you want as long as you do not make any PROFIT from it.
What about all the amiga magazines with demos cds back in the day? They also released a bunch of PD stuff without asking for permission and alot of people actually bought the demo magazines for the demo cd/floppy disk.
But as i said, i do not know about this particular case.. because $35 sounds a bit much to cover just the media costs, unless that also covers shipping to the whole world.
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@Tomas
So what should you then do when this said group does not exist anymore??
I'd say you'd still be allowed to redistribute the original release as long as you don't ask money for it.
Nowadays party rules often have a clause that any release made at the compos must be redistributable by the organizers / others. Naturally there weren't such agreements during the early days, though.
Taking charge for the shipping and media costs does not equal selling, since the person who is doing it earn zero profit for the job of transferring the demos to video.
IMO without permission it's either totally free of charge or no distribution. Reversed: If you want to ask money, you need to have permission.
Also this would mean that it would be just as illegal to host most of these older demos on the internet for free, as it does not state in the copyright that these files can be hosted on the internet medium.
I don't see what is wrong with hosting the demos on the internet free of charge.
The simple fact is that most demos are released in public domain for free
Free yes, but I can't remember seeing any Public Domain demos.
What about all the amiga magazines with demos cds back in the day?
They had permission, clearly, except...
They also released a bunch of PD stuff without asking for permission and alot of people actually bought the demo magazines for the demo cd/floppy disk.
PD stuff can be released without permission. But unless if someothing clearly states it's Public Domain, you can't treat it as such.
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But taking their content and moving it another medium to try to sell it without their approval is lame.
The whole point of the demo scene was to spread the productions, if you can't get your head around that you are obviously missing the whole point of the scene. PD doesnt need approval, it belongs to the public. The original credits are there, whats the problem?
You had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD right now. There's no way it costs that much to burn five discs and mail them (discs only) to people in your own country. You were offering them for 1 GBP to your friends at the other forum, and you turned down someone else who asked about it and told them to buy it from you on eBay.
When was the last time you sold anything on ebay? It isn't free you know! Listing fees are a couple of quid (for a decent ad), they take a cut from every sale, Paypal take a cut from every sale, postage, media, printing.... it does add up you know. I offered my mates one for a quid each at a loss (because they are mates).
If you're just trying to show off what you can do with the Amiga and spreading the word about the talents of demo coders, why not make use of this big distribution center for bits called the Internet? You could spread it around without selling it. Why not do it?
Totally lost the plot there didn't you? I never claimed that I made the demos! I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for). I am using the Internet (ebay aint on a fu**ing BBS you know). I was only selling for the work I put into it.
Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you. You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay. Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?
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@ j_tramiel
Totally lost the plot there didn't you? I never claimed that I made the demos! I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for). I am using the Internet (ebay aint on a fu**ing BBS you know). I was only selling for the work I put into it.
Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you. You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay. Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?
So, if I understood you right: You have no problem of someone buying your DVD and putting the ISO available as download, or reselleing it as their own work with huge pricetag?
Good to know.
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I offered my mates one for a quid each at a loss (because they are mates).
By offering them to your mates, you are avoiding the eBay and other fees you complained about it.
Regardless, it does not cost 4 GBP/$7 USD to burn a disc and post it locally, even with eBay and other fees. In USD, the insertion fee would be $0.35, the buy-it-now $0.05, the final value fee $0.37, PayPal fee $0.49, the envelope $0.50, and the postage $1.10 (assuming the disc is in a jewel case). That leaves 2.36 GBP/$4.14 USD extra.
Totally lost the plot there didn't you? I never claimed that I made the demos!
I didn't say that you did.
I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for).
I agree that's what they're for! But you're trying to spread them by selling them. They're not yours to sell.
Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you.
You did not make any of the content. You used WinUAE to create AVIs of the demos, and you used some ready-made software to create menus and burn it all to DVD. That does not entitle you to sell it, and you very well know that you wouldn't be able to sell your work if you didn't have any content to add value to it.
You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay. Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?
You said that you just want to spread great demos. There are plenty of other ways to spread them without selling them. There are numerous other fan compilation DVDs out there that can be downloaded right now, so distribution via the Internet is not a problem.
Your demand that you be paid for it indicates that you're not just a fan trying to create something interesting for others to enjoy, it indicates that you are trying to make money. QED.
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This thread is getting ridiculous, but I don't have a problem with someone offering it as an ISO download. Like I said previously, its aimed at people who don't have the know-how to use emulators, people who have lost their disks, etc.
I would be pissed off with someone reselling it as their own work with a huge price tag, of course I would, don't be so facetious. I am not and have never claimed that the demos were coded by me. Why do you think the listing had a contents list that said who the coding groups were responsible for each production? Get your facts straight before you start bad-mouthing people.
It's not like I'm ripping anyone off, or taking their livelihood is it? I simply made a video of my favourite demos for old times sake, and I thought other people would like it too.
I had considered offering it as a download, but judging by the amount of knobs like you in the community, I shan't bother.
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I had considered offering it as a download, but judging by the amount of knobs like you in the community, I shan't bother.
No, you didn't want to offer it at all. On the other site you said this in response to requests for a torrent: "Well I was hoping to make a bit of cash from it, so its on ebay now. Doing a torrent would be a bit like shooting meself in the foot."
On the other site you also said:
Don't bother reading that other forum guys, its starting to get nasty and personal.
That is the exact reason why I never use the bigger site forums, because they are full of LAMMERZZZZ !!!!!
No, it's not nasty and personal in the least, except for a few comments from you and your shill Bubbles. The people who disagree with you haven't attacked you in any way, and have actually given you the benefit of the doubt.
Someone else conceded that what you're trying to do is not as bad as what those people selling compilations of commercial games are doing, and, hell, I don't even have any moral problems with old commercial Amiga stuff being spread around for free on the Internet anyway (though I'd never offer things here).
What's actually happening here is that you're not gaining any converts and you haven't been successful in starting a flame war, and you don't want your mates to see it.
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Regardless, it does not cost 4 GBP/$7 USD to burn a disc and post it locally, even with eBay and other fees. In USD, the insertion fee would be $0.35, the buy-it-now $0.05, the final value fee $0.37, PayPal fee $0.49, the envelope $0.50, and the postage $1.10 (assuming the disc is in a jewel case). That leaves 2.36 GBP/$4.14 USD extra.
If you had even bothered looking at the ebay listing before spouting off you would have seen that my ad contained 3 supresize pics, and a thumbnail gallery listing, this cost about £2 to list. Get your facts straight!
But you're trying to spread them by selling them. They're not yours to sell.
Public Domain means released into the public, they now belong to the public and the authors have relinquished their rights (look at the works of Shakespeare, nobody complains at book companies selling his work) Get your facts straight!
You did not make any of the content. You used WinUAE to create AVIs of the demos, and you used some ready-made software to create menus and burn it all to DVD. That does not entitle you to sell it, and you very well know that you wouldn't be able to sell your work if you didn't have any content to add value to it
I never went anywhere near WinUAE, all the demos were captured using an external MPEG encoder hooked up to a real Amiga. Get your facts straight!
You said that you just want to spread great demos. There are plenty of other ways to spread them without selling them. There are numerous other fan compilation DVDs out there that can be downloaded right now, so distribution via the Internet is not a problem.
You are forgetting that not everyone has the ability or knowledge to download and burn DVD's. Just because you know how to do something, don't assume everyone else can do it too. Get your facts straight!
Your demand that you be paid for it indicates that you're not just a fan trying to create something interesting for others to enjoy, it indicates that you are trying to make money. QED.
DEMAND? I don't demand anything, if you want it pay for it, if you don't.... well don't.
Did I say I was a Fan giving away freebies?? No. Of course I want to make money (but just a small amount for my trouble) noones gonna get rich selling this type of cr*p are they now? 10-15 year old sprites jumping around the screen... get real, wake up and smell the coffee.
And its not like I am stealing anyones livelihood, or robbing anyone of business is it now. Get your facts straight!
Honestly, this is pathetic, what possible reason would you or anyone else here have for taking such offence at this harmless bit of fun?
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It doesn't look illegal to me.
The demos were public domain.
It seems a couple of people can't realise this fact.
When I bought PD disks back in the 90s the fees were higher than disk+postage - they covered the time and effort in running the PD library. In this case £4 seems to be a reasonable price for the effort involved, seeing as around 20 people will probably buy it in the end.
It isn't piracy - this type of behaviour is exactly what the scene encouraged back in the day.
I doubt we'll ever see an apology though. I left AW.net to get away from this type of crass "i'm right, despite the facts" behaviour.
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Hallelujah!
Someone with some sense.
Most of the members here will probably be pleased to know that ebay removed my listing because someone reported it as piracy.
(and I never even sold any, so haha, have a good laugh at that)
Absolutely pathetic!
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I don't know why anybody bothers to create anything these days - too many people who are ready to jump on it and make the effort not worthwhile. It's all too common these days, sadly.
I don't have an Amiga any more, but I'd like to watch the demos again (although it wouldn't be quite the same watching them on a DVD than the real thing). Heh, maybe the Oddysey megademo, my third disk was corrupt so I never saw it all.
I think you should contact eBay and explain that the DVD was merely containing videos of the output of Public Domain material, it would be like banning someone selling eBooks of Shakespeare. Maybe courtesy would have dictated that you contact the groups, if they were contactable, but no-one at school ever did that when we copied the demos for each other.
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:horse: :horse: :horse:
Hattig wrote:
It doesn't look illegal to me.
The demos were public domain.
It seems a couple of people can't realise this fact.
When I bought PD disks back in the 90s the fees were higher than disk+postage - they covered the time and effort in running the PD library. In this case £4 seems to be a reasonable price for the effort involved, seeing as around 20 people will probably buy it in the end.
It isn't piracy - this type of behaviour is exactly what the scene encouraged back in the day.
I doubt we'll ever see an apology though. I left AW.net to get away from this type of crass "i'm right, despite the facts" behaviour.
I am not convinced this is piracy or not. As one poster stated (one that actually has the talent to make demo's) "Demo's are NOT PUBLIC DOMAIN" unless the author has released it into the PD. Free to copy is not the same as PD.
So, if the demos were not released as PD and they were used without permission, as far as I am concerned (and it appears that many here agree with this opinion) the DVD's are pirated material. Nobody is getting an apology if its pirated.
My 2 cents, so you can flame on me now.
:horse: :horse: :horse:
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Jesus, why can't anybody understand that the WHOLE POINT of demos was to SPREAD them!
Piracy my arse.
90% of the coders for these demos were involved in the piracy scene (cracktro's etc,) anyway.
Unbe-flipping-lieveable!
I wasn't spreading the demos, I was spreading Video of the demos.
You don't see the whole gorilla population queueing up to sue David Attenborough for making videos of them without getting their permission do you?
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90% of the coders for these demos were involved in the piracy scene (cracktro's etc,) anyway.
Uhm, I have to disagree here. During the early days it was true mostly, but later on the scenes separated. Demoscene has been considered legal for aeons. Demoscene also has pretty low tolerance on loaning someone elses work (ripping, again much more common the early days).
Anyway: Two bads don't make one good.
I wasn't spreading the demos, I was spreading Video of the demos.
Makes no difference IMO.
You don't see the whole gorilla population queueing up to sue David Attenborough for making videos of them without getting their permission do you?
The problem here must be that the gorillas and humans can't communicate well enough. This should be no problem between demo compilation builder and demo authors (both are probably human).
Another problem might be that copyright law doesn't consider animals as individuals having rights. Dunno really, maybe it's possible in some countries. Go gorillas, sue the {bleep}!
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Well that settles it then...
IF YOU DISTRIBUTE DEMOS YOU ARE A PIRATE!
I'm so glad that is clear now, I hope you are all taking notice.
Can I just end this silly thread by bringing your attention to this:
(http://uk.geocities.com/steveola@btinternet.com/retard.jpg)
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If you had even bothered looking at the ebay listing before spouting off you would have seen that my ad contained 3 supresize pics, and a thumbnail gallery listing, this cost about £2 to list. Get your facts straight!
Your images of the DVD menus are hosted on a Geocities site. That's free.
The one image that was hosted on eBay's image hosting service is 400x400. That's the "standard picture" size, and is also free.
The gallery image costs 0.13 GBP/$0.35 USD, or one-tenth of the 2 GBP/$3.50 USD you claimed.
At this point you are, inexplicably, telling bald-faced lies. It's no wonder you don't want your mates coming over here to see this. Even the people on *this* site who were on your side are going to have start reconsidering.
I never went anywhere near WinUAE, all the demos were captured using an external MPEG encoder hooked up to a real Amiga.
The method you used to move the content to a different medium does not defeat my argument: You did not make any of the content. You used a hardware device to capture the demos, and you used some ready-made software to create menus and burn it all to DVD. That does not entitle you to sell it, and you very well know that you wouldn't be able to sell your work if you didn't have any content to add value to it.
You are forgetting that not everyone has the ability or knowledge to download and burn DVD's.
The fact that some people know how to burn DVDs and some don't has no relevance to the argument.
DEMAND?
Yes, demand. "Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it."
You didn't do this because you are a fan. You could simply torrent it or post it to Usenet or seek hosting at files.amiganostalgia.com or the Scene FTP server, but you don't want to.
You did not want to share it with fans. You wanted to make money. You said so yourself. "Well I was hoping to make a bit of cash from it, so its on ebay now. Doing a torrent would be a bit like shooting meself in the foot."
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@j_tramiel
You mean this (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~pdang/AA/Retard.jpg) perhaps?
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Hehe, I'm not wasting my time with you losers any more.
Sitting there all high and mighty, even though your hard drives are full of ripped .adf's and stuff.
like I said, its pathetic.
You can be safe in the knowledge that this DVD will never see the light of day thanks to this forum. So, why carry on arguing.
you won, feels good?
goodbye
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omgwtfbqqLOLOL funniest thread evar!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/starguard/imageee.gif)
But seriously: can't we just copy this whole thread to AW.net and get on with our lives in an adult way over here?
True: I'm sure there are some of the original authors who aren't pleased that their stuff is sold this way, but be realistic: we're talking about a guy who made a compilation just for fun and good memories for some people. I would give you every right to rant if Cloanto decided to put some demo's on Amiga Forever, but come on now... 3 pages threadmolesting over some old software and demos EVERYONE can get for free?
Damn... now I got myself into it as well!!
(curses and vows never to post in this thread again :lol: )
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I do feel sorry for the guy he was not even selling games,
I just come form ebay as I want to get some new CD32
games and I have just seen alot of pirated games there. Could you nice guys report the real pirates.
Here are some links:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/megadrive-150-games-snes-amiga-mega-cd-NES_W0QQitemZ8274399357QQcategoryZ3653QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TEAM-17-ANTHOLOGY-CD32-AMIGA-CD_W0QQitemZ8273022779QQcategoryZ98929QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERFUL-AMIGA-EMULATOR-GAMES-PC-CD-ROM-Sealed_W0QQitemZ8274326237QQcategoryZ98928QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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AntonioX wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/megadrive-150-games-snes-amiga-mega-cd-NES_W0QQitemZ8274399357QQcategoryZ3653QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That one is a big collection of used carts and consoles. I can't see anything pirated there?
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ooops my mistake and how about the others like that team 17 one?
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I cannot believe that this s##t is still going on. How on earth can people still be complaining about this.
1: The guy is selling them for some profit, but it represents a lot of work and at the price he is hardly going to become a millionare.
2: Copyright/Piracy - Get a life peeps. If it is illegal I am sure that he will get sued (if anyone could be bothered)which I very much doubt.
3: Great compilation, I have been recommending it to my friends. Lots of copies are going to Southern England soon.
Keep up the good work dude, and dont't be "put off" by a small number of pedantic small minded ass###es!
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I believe that by the sheer act of these demos being available through public domain collections, the authors have released (whether intentionally or not) their rights to ownership and thus stop anyone making copies of their works.
They may still hold copyright of the work - depending on the country the creaters were from, the year that the program was created and whether or not they have the copyright symbol somewhere in their production.
I agree that j_tramiel cannot sell the DVD as his own work, but he seems well within the law to charge a modest extra for his time, materials and effort for creating a compilation of public domain works.
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gizmomelb wrote:
I agree that j_tramiel cannot sell the DVD as his own work, but he seems well within the law to charge a modest extra for his time, materials and effort for creating a compilation of public domain works.
By the looks of things its a DVD of video recordings of the demos. Big deal.
Then he has sat down and made a nice fancy front end for the DVD.
Video of the demos, the copyright there is questionable. It'd cost so much $$$ just to work it out in the courts that you'd be a nitwit to even try and sue.
.. and he'd own the copyright to the DVD front end, so if you did get his DVD and you did put it online, then "you" would be the pirate.
Either way, the DVD looked cool from the screen shots. Shame he won't produce it.
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@gizmomelb
I believe that by the sheer act of these demos being available through public domain collections, the authors have released (whether intentionally or not) their rights to ownership and thus stop anyone making copies of their works.
No they haven't. The only way you can waive the copyright is to specifically place the work under Public Domain. Someone including your work in some public domain collection does not make it public domain. There is no need to protect copyright, and it doesn't get revoked if you don't (Trademark and IP laws are another matter).
whether or not they have the copyright symbol somewhere in their production.
That is not required. Any work is automatically copyright by the creator (even in USA since 89 or so, that means most Amiga demos are covered).
See 10 Big Myths about copyright explained (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)
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@j_tramiel
Sell what the hell you want on ebay, ignore the high and mighty "amiga crusaders" on here. Next week the stalkers will move over to GPL violations,logo thefts and other petty things what turns them on..
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@AntonioX
Why don't you report these actions yourself and keep this thread out? Or do you want someone do it for you?. This thread got enough fuel for flames and you just are enlightening it.
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@Savan
He can't, the people with a thorny stick up their bums here will keep on reporting it as 'copyright infringement' to eBay and it isn't worth the hassle to him.
Yes, the copyright is owned by the creators. However they released these things quite some time ago, and it was always under the assumption that they would be spread wide and far. If there was such a thing as a Scene Licence back then, it would have been "Copy this to everyone you know so they can enjoy it, we're not liable for any damage, blah blah, blah, please keep original attributions intact".
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Yes, the copyright is owned by the creators.
Yep, and copyrights, like most of the other areas of IP are really only valuable if you enforce them.
And anyone who wants to enforce 10+ year old copyright on scene demos.. hehehe. Whilst they're throwing their money away they can throw some my way. :-)
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Bubble wrote:
I cannot believe that this s##t is still going on. How on earth can people still be complaining about this.
1: The guy is selling them for some profit, but it represents a lot of work and at the price he is hardly going to become a millionare.
He is worth approximately 2 GBP for pressing REC several times. Yes, that's a lot of work, compared to the hundreds of man-hours that have gone into each demo on the disc.
It's not distributing old stuff per se that makes people offset, it's people trying to make a profit off other people's hard works. No matter how much work people claim to have laid on making CD compilations of ROMZ or gamez or warez, it is fades in comparison with the original work of the authors.
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Iggy_Drougge wrote:
He is worth approximately 2 GBP for pressing REC several times. Yes, that's a lot of work, compared to the hundreds of man-hours that have gone into each demo on the disc.
I think there are two different works here. The original demo makers effort to make a demo and this guys effort for finding these demos and making a compilation. And I don't see any point in comparing them. I don't think this guy is earning a life out of it. If you think the price is high you have all the right to make one compilation for yourself. The original demo makers have all the right to distribute their own work, but they don't. Why ? because it's not really worth it (profit-wise) and they probably have much important and timeworthy stuff to do right now.
It's not distributing old stuff per se that makes people offset, it's people trying to make a profit off other people's hard works. No matter how much work people claim to have laid on making CD compilations of ROMZ or gamez or warez, it is fades in comparison with the original work of the authors.
I think if the original creators contact this guy and ask for their works removal, he should adhere and do so. Otherwise I don't see any harm in what he's doing cause demos are meant to be public domain. Copying ROMs or games is a different matter in its entirety though.
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I think if the original creators contact this guy and ask for their works removal, he should adhere and do so.
Again: No, that's the wrong way. You shouldn't sell something unless if you have license to do so (that is: written permission).
Otherwise I don't see any harm in what he's doing cause demos are meant to be public domain. Copying ROMs or games is a different matter in its entirety though.
Like pointed out before in this thread, demos are not public domain, unless otherwise stated.
For example scene.org (http://www.scene.org/)'s FAQ (http://www.scene.org/faq.php) states:
Redistribution
We would like to create and sell compilations of music / demos that we downloaded from scene.org? Can you give us permission?
The International Scene Organization only has distribution rights of the works contained in its archive.
None of the works (songs, demos, graphics, videos) present on our archives are in the public domain. As such you need to contact yourself the respective authors to ask them specifically if they are willing to let you exploit their work commercially.
To do so we suggest you either read the contact info if present in the ftp directory, or from the archives and accompanying text files.
We know it can prove difficult sometimes to locate the copyright holders from the handles they leave with their file. You are then advised to try to reach them through the email addresses contained in readme files, or search their handle in http://ojuice.net (http://ojuice.net)'s database.
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(http://blog.project76.tv/MrMannOwl.jpg)
"I'm looking for a pirate memory game..."
--
moto
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Sad, very sad. By the way, have the demos any type of licence like gpl or such nowadays?, because i think that those demos were published for free, so it's perfectly legal distributing it. As someone said in a post in this thread, remember the pd libraries and their postage fees? that's a similar situation.
But i know that certain people have too much spare time and have to spend it on anything.
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_ThEcRoW wrote:
Sad, very sad. By the way, have the demos any type of licence like gpl or such nowadays?, because i think that those demos were published for free, so it's perfectly legal distributing it. As someone said in a post in this thread, remember the pd libraries and their postage fees? that's a similar situation.
Exactly. It's identical. PD libraries such as 17-bit and the hundreds of others used to sell disks at £1.50 - £2.25 each (actual cost of blank disks were about 15p each and postage was 17p 1st class, plus the cost of the jiffy). That's about a 500% profit per disk. 17-bit made enough from "selling other people's hard work" (as one person here put it) to start up Team 17.
I wonder if the people complaining in this thread now were spending all their time 15 years ago scribbling letters to Amiga Format / Amiga Power et al complaining about their adverts and calling all the PD sellers pirates?
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By the way, have the demos any type of licence like gpl or such nowadays?
You need to check each particular demo individually.
BTW, here's some interesting demo licence talk:
http://www.scene.org/discussnews.php?item=275
http://www.scene.org/discusspoll.php?item=60
As you can see, this is no easy situation legally.
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I notice several of you users use icons for their characters on this forum from copyright images like southpark are {bleep}ing about copyright seem funny. You can’t say their using it for artistic reasons each post use same icon. For that matter this site has serval pics from early amiga demos and screen shots of copyrighted material do you have all the written premissions required? even the swag combines 2 copyrighted images of amiga. Is Amiga inc. getting their share? Just showing how copyright can goto far.
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I designed my avatar image myself.
--
moto
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@paulvm
For that matter this site has serval pics from early amiga demos and screen shots of copyrighted material do you have all the written premissions required?
Most screenshots of games/demos fall into fair use (http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/) category, I'd say.
even the swag combines 2 copyrighted images of amiga. Is Amiga inc. getting their share?
Pictures of hardware are copyright by the person taking the photo.
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ther is one issue that is being skirted around here. the copyright holder should be the one complaining about infringement not the users. after all who else would know if this was legal or not. if they do not care about their product being reproduced then who are we to judge?
if we see something potentially illegal we should notify the copyright holder. we should not take this into our own hands.
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I designed my avatar image myself.- gee i remember neil diamond sue by the makers of e.t. about heartlight song just inspired by the movie. neil lost.
as for pics on amiga org
1.Fair Use. A search engine’s practice of creating small reproductions (“thumbnails”) of images and placing them on its own website (known as “inlining”) did not undermine the potential market for the sale or licensing of those images. Important Factors. The thumbnails were much smaller and of much poorer quality than the original photos and served to index the images and help the public access them. (Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).)
they are not of lesser quality you click on them their full size and not link(full size image) to artist website. limiting the artist ably to sell those images again. example sachs pics.
2.By not limiting the time images are in libirary in time stored they might violate these.
Not a fair use. A television news program copied one minute and 15 seconds from a 72-minute Charlie Chaplin film and used it in a news report about Chaplin's death. Important factors: The court felt that the portions taken were substantial and part of the "heart" of the film. (Roy Export Co. Estab. of Vaduz v. Columbia Broadcasting Sys., Inc. , 672 F.2d 1095, 1100 (2d Cir. 1982).)
Fair use. The makers of a movie biography of Muhammad Ali used 41 seconds from a boxing match film in their biography. Important factors: A small portion of film was taken and the purpose was informational. (Monster Communications, Inc. v. Turner Broadcasting Sys. Inc., 935 F. Supp. 490 (S.D. N.Y. 1996).)
Not a fair use. A television station's news broadcast used 30 seconds from a fourminute copyrighted videotape of the 1992 Los Angeles beating of Reginald Denny. Important factors: The use was commercial, took the heart of the work and affected the copyright owner's ability to market the video. ( Los Angeles News Service v. KCAL-TV Channel 9, 108 F.3d 1119 (9th Cir. 1997).)
. Internet Cases
Not a fair use. Entire publications of the Church of Scientology were posted on the Internet by several individuals without Church permission. Important factors: Fair use is intended to permit the borrowing of portions of a work, not complete works. (Religious Technology Center v. Lerma, 40 U.S.P.Q. 2d 1569 (E.D. Va. 1996).)
Fair use. The Washington Post used three brief quotations from Church of Scientology texts posted on the Internet (see previous case). Important factors: Only a small portion of the work was excerpted and the purpose was for news commentary. ( Religious Technology Center v. Pagliarina, 908 F. Supp 1353 (E.D. Va. 1995).)
As for photographs submitted do you know the person submitting the photo is the taker. Their is no way a website can know this.
A swag i was refencing the t-shirt amiga org is selling it contains 2 images copywrighted by Amiga inc. the checkmark and the ball. Amiga might allow to use logos on your website nonprofit, but selling a t-shirt is a profit business. no way it can be underfair use.
I am not a lawyer but neither or you guys. I am just making the point unless you are and own the rights to items in question or a laywer for them. you have no right to say what violiates copyright. All you know the owner might have given premission. If you have a problem report it to the owner not ebay. Ebay has no idea whos contacting them or why? If you own the right to item in question or not. The better question if you mess up a legal sell of a item because author does have the copywright or ownership can you be sued and not only for value of item for damage of his online business? I the case of those demo i think it would be too difficult to prove who made them most writers used fake names and were involved in groups that cracked games at the time. If they used a fake name It would be near impossible to prove it is them now.
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ll the demos are freely (and legally) downloadable
Freely available does not mean free to profit from and does not mean public domain.
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The pics on amiga.org. You need to make a distinction between actual copyrighted pictures, and pictures of copyrighted work (something else than a picture). These are two different things.
Naturally uploading copyrighted picture as-is is not fair use. However, screenshot of demo / game is.
A swag i was refencing the t-shirt amiga org is selling it contains 2 images copywrighted by Amiga inc. the checkmark and the ball. Amiga might allow to use logos on your website nonprofit, but selling a t-shirt is a profit business. no way it can be underfair use.
It is copyrigth infrigiment only if the images are really copyright someone else and there is no license to use them. Somehow I doubt amiga.org would be selling the stuff if there were any copyright/license issues... But following your own advice, you've already reported the infrigiment to Amiga, inc. right?
most writers used fake names and were involved in groups that cracked games at the time.
Irrelevant. This is no way connected to copyright of other works. Even if you're a criminal you don't lose the copyright of your own work.
If they used a fake name It would be near impossible to prove it is them now.
Actually even if you make your work under pseudonym, you're rewarded the copyright regardless. So, really, I don't see what the problem there is: It's the same anyway, you still need to prove you're the author...
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weirdami wrote:
ll the demos are freely (and legally) downloadable
Freely available does not mean free to profit from and does not mean public domain.
No, it's the fact that the demos were released into the public domain by the authors, distributed by Public Domain libraries on disks with "Public Domain software" printed on them in big black letters, reviewed in the "Public Domain" sections of Amiga magazines, distributed as public domain for over a decade, included on numerous Public Domain CD compilations, distributed as Public Domain on the internet, on BBS's, and by mail swappers that made them public domain.
If they weren't public domain the authors should have done something about it then and sued Future publishing, ACP & TCP, 17-bit, Almathera, PDSoft, Amiga BBS's, and all the rest. Not have a few people who know nothing about it abritrarily decide on their behalf 15 years after the fact that they weren't public domain after all.
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Incidentally, acp & tcp are still selling the 'Scene Archives' CD collections (approx 1000 scene demos / intros per CD) at 10 Euro each, and Vesalia is selling the Amiga CD Sensation - Demos are Forever compilation for 3 Euro.
So, if those of you who say you are against this on principle, and aren't just applying your rule selectively, you can drop them a line (contact email addresses on their respective websites) and let them know what dirty pirates they are.
And, of course, the links to their sites can be deleted from Amiga.org (just as the link to the DVD the guy was selling originally was).
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Jesus, I can't believe they are still harping on about this!
Funny how some people have absolutely no life at all.
Anyway, just looking back at what that idiot Piru has posted:
You need to make a distinction between actual copyrighted pictures, and pictures of copyrighted work (something else than a picture). These are two different things.
Hmm, well that equates to my DVD: I am not distributing the code (which is what any copyright would apply to), but moving images of the output from the code, a bit like a screenshot of a game (yep, fair use then!)
Also,
Pictures of hardware are copyright by the person taking the photo.
So, I used my hardware to take a moving 'photo' of the demos, therefore I own the copyright to the 'moving photos' (videos).
haha, he is talking absolute cack, and has basically just agreed that I hold the copyright to the videos I made.
(as I suspected, the guy's a tool!) :lol:
PS: Thank you lando... you are about the only person around here that is displaying any common sense whatsoever.