Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: bootneck on March 30, 2006, 07:56:56 PM
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can the mediator run a normal pci usb card or does it have to be a spider?
The price difference is considerable
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I have been trying to get OpenPCI.library + ArakAttak + PCI USB card to work but haven't got it to work yet. Maybe the PCI card is not supported by ArakAttack.
Openpciscan finds the card and it is recocnized by Trident.
Anyone here who have tried this and got it to work ?
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i try a cheap (10 euro) usb2 with prometheus pci board, using openpci arakattack and poseidon stuck. all the software can communicate with the card but don't work because of known prometheus dma problems. at open pci (http://bvernoux.free.fr/DevPCI.php#download) site it says that 100% compatibility with mediator finished but it's not clear if the driver has released.
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There is nothing like a 'normal PCI USB card' - there are different chip sets around and they do need separate drivers. If your card has a chip set that's not supported, you're outa luck. Maybe someone can tell you what chip set the Spider uses to get a similar card.
Just because Windoze has lots of different drivers already built in, doesn't mean that all USB cards have to work on any system.
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Nickman wrote:
Openpciscan finds the card and it is recocnized by Trident.
that means that ArakAttack that works as a plug in of poseidon can recocnize the usb card too.
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Maybe someone can tell you what chip set the Spider uses to get a similar card.
Won't work. "Spider USB" is regular NEC USB card with modified PCI ID so that you can't buy one from your local dealer. The elbox driver is locked to check for the modified PCI ID.
In order to f*ck up anyone attempting to modify the driver to accept regular NEC USB cards (available everywhere), the driver was made to wipe out RDB of the system disk (http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/elboxdecrypt/) if modified. While the RDB trashing code was removed under public pressure, the driver still is locked to only Elbox Spider cards.
So, your're limited to "Spider USB" card or using some other solution.
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Cool to hear - now I know what I'm not gonna buy if hell hasn't frozen over yet... :-o
In Germany this (destroying data or access to it) is absolutely illegal and would make them liable to a nice compensation
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now that's realy ''cheap pci cards to amiga'' policy...
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This is just disgusting - I'm pretty sure I won't buy anything from Elbox ever - and I was very seriously thinking about a Mediator, or a Dragon if it actually happens to surface. :madashell:
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thanks everyone, ive just come back into the amiga world after a 10 year gap and cannot get over how helpfull everyone is
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i think that we couldn't servive in any other way all these years :-)
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If you buy something from Elbox, they do however offer amazing technical support. I've always been satisfied with products made by them. There are certainly other choices out there that are definitely worth looking into, especially as far as USB cards go.
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Piru wrote:
Maybe someone can tell you what chip set the Spider uses to get a similar card.
Won't work. "Spider USB" is regular NEC USB card with modified PCI ID so that you can't buy one from your local dealer. The elbox driver is locked to check for the modified PCI ID.
This is MY opinion only, take it for what you will.
This is my biggest grudge against the state of the Amiga as it stands.
Here's the thing....
Vendors have been doing this for years, it's nothing new.
We have a similar situation on the Mac, we call it the "Mac tax" - a regular AGP graphics card for the PC (For arguments sake) would cost maybe $150. The Mac version, which is identical to the PC (In every way except the onboard VGA BIOS) costs at least double that.
Is that fair?
It's also the same with a few IDE controller cards, the PC only Promise Ultra66 for instance. It's the same card with only 3 SMD resistors moved around and a Mac BIOS, the price difference is astounding.
On to my main point, if you're handy with DOS and maybe some SMD rework gear you can transform the USB card into the Amiga equivalent for no more than maybe 30mins work.
Of course this raises ethical issues with the writers of the Spider BIOS, if it even contains one.
It's a catch-22 situation with both Amiga and Mac, people are willing to spend way over the odds for a card which truthfully has only minor modifications (Sometimes none at all), the developers/marketers know that they'll only sell a few to the Ami/Mac minority so they have to make their cash on the Amiga tax.
They also know that they have the market cornered which forces a lot of people out of the Amiga scene.
And you wonder why the number of Amigans is shrinking.
If you're willing to pay $60+ for what is essentially a $15 USB card, fair enough - you're supporting the developers.
On the other hand if these vendors maybe sold the card at a premium to the early adpoters, then gradually bought the price down over time, more people would buy it, they'd make more money and everybody would be happy. The "Gotta have it now" crowd would have their card, the developers would get their slice and the regular "I'll wait for the price to come down" guys would eventually get the card.
That's how the business model works in every retail situation and it does work.
I for one won't (and can't) buy something like the Spider. I don't have the cash and this USB card (In my opinion) isn't worth anywhere near what retailers are charging for it so people like myself have to get creative and if you have the skills it will save you a lot of money.
FYI - I have 2 identical cards sitting in front of me, one in my PC and one in my Mac, both working perfectly.
I bought them 2 weeks ago brand new for $15 each.
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Just an addition regarding custom designed cards built from the ground-up for the Amigas.
These people put a lot of effort into making life with the Amiga better and my rant isn't directed toward them.
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@Phonic:
Some very good points. Another sucky fact about Spider is that the whole point of owning a Mediator PCI board is to not have to pay premium prices on custom made Zorro cards. :-(
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MAC Tax? Wtf?
The reason xxx card for the mac costs double the price of an identical card on the pc will almost certainly be down to the scale that the cards are produced at. Thus you pay more to fund the people who wrote the firmware.
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lorddef wrote:
MAC Tax? Wtf?
The reason xxx card for the mac costs double the price of an identical card on the pc will almost certainly be down to the scale that the cards are produced at. Thus you pay more to fund the people who wrote the firmware.
That's a contradiction.
If the cards are identical, made at the same fab with the same components by the same people how are they producing more of the PC variety?
They all come off the same line and they're all built to the same budget until a few are pulled out and flashed with the Mac compatible ROM.
You can't honestly believe that a relatively simple modification to a 64KB file justifies a 100% price hike even after factoring in R&D, testing etc.
Oh, and don't forget the sticker on the front of the box....
"Mac Edition"
Must cost hundreds to design that.
The Mac tax.
Back on topic, if anyone wants to know where to get one of the USB cards, shoot me a PM.
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Phonic wrote:
They all come off the same line and they're all built to the same budget until a few are pulled out and flashed with the Mac compatible ROM.
You can't honestly believe that a relatively simple modification to a 64KB file justifies a 100% price hike even after factoring in R&D, testing etc.
Oh, and don't forget the sticker on the front of the box....
Sure it does. Let's say it costs $10,000/per platform to develop firmware/drivers for a particular GPU. If they are going to sell 10 times as many cards for one platform, then the card/firmware for the other platform is going to have to cost more, or be subsidised by the more popular platform which could effect sales and profit margins.
Call it MacTax, but it's really an effect of marketshare.
BTW, most USB/Firewire cards work with both Mac and PC (even if they say they don't). I got a 19.99 special at Fry's that is USB2.0 and Firewire for my Mac.
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Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with them modifying the vendor ID to make sure you buy custom hardware from them. They want to make money, and if what they offer is worth it, I buy it. If I don't like it I don't have to buy it. I have only a very small problem with them fortifying their driver to withstand simple patching.
But I have a really huge problem with them delivering a time bomb that triggers when I play around with my system drivers or when some RAM chip accidentally breaks or when it just feels like it. This disqualfies them for me for all times.
Sure, restoring the RDB is not that big a problem, but WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY F**KING WITH MY HDD??
Anyone got a Prometheus card for sale?
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@Zac67
It was obviously a huge mistake for Elbox to do that. If you can't forgive them that's fine, but move on. It's been years since this happened and people still bring it up like it's in the current drivers.
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I have only just heard about this. I think it's a disgrace. I understand Elbox's desire to have their driver used only for "their" hardware, but they don't need to trash someone's RDB to do this. They could just make the driver stop running if a non-Spider card is detected (which I suspect is what happens now).
Now that the RDB trashing code has been removed, what is stopping the driver from being modified to work with with non-Spider USB cards which use the same chipset but don't contain the Spider identifier?
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moto
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@adolescent
It was obviously a huge mistake for Elbox to do that. If you can't forgive them that's fine, but move on. It's been years since this happened and people still bring it up like it's in the current drivers.
It was the way Elbox handled this that demands constant reminding. No apologizes for wrongdoing, no remorse. Denial of the problem and outright lying.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=6302
http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_13a.html
http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_18b.html
I will continue to remind people of this as long as I see fit (I will stop when Elbox confesses the wrongdoing and apologizes). And if someone is thinking if I am the one who discovered this ('qwe'), no I am not.
@motorollin
Now that the RDB trashing code has been removed, what is stopping the driver from being modified to work with with non-Spider USB cards which use the same chipset but don't contain the Spider identifier?
It hasn't been impossible before either, and skilled hacker could have easily disabled the RDB trashing code, and also made the driver work with regular NEC cards.
It's copyright infrigiment to redistribute such hacked drivers, and in most countries it's illegal to distribute tool(s) that modify the driver to accept any such card. In some countries it's even illegal to "crack" the driver for your own purposes (it's illegal in Finland since jan 1st 2006, for example).
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Piru wrote:
(I will stop when Elbox confesses the wrongdoing and apologizes).
Apolgizes to who? The 0 people that got a trashed RDB?
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@adolescent
Apolgizes to who?
To their users for putting them at risk of RDB trashing. Unlike what Elbox says the code could have been triggered without any hack attempt. AmigaOS is not protected environment and proper memory poking would have been enough to zap the RDB.
Some part of the apology should go to the hacker who brought this to everyone's attention. Without him every Elbox user would probably still be at risk.
The 0 people that got a trashed RDB?
How can you tell there weren't any?
The code is quiet, it doesn't tell that "Hey there mate, I just zapped your RDB!". If someone lost his RDB for no apparent reason there is no way to tell if Elbox driver did it.
Another silly argument is that you can easily restore the RDB if it's lost. That migth be if you have actually backed it up before, and know what losing RDB looks like. If you have never seen it, you could easily assume you've just lost all your data for good, or assume the HDD is defect.
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Piru wrote:
It's copyright infrigiment to redistribute such hacked drivers, and in most countries it's illegal to distribute tool(s) that modify the driver to accept any such card. In some countries it's even illegal to "crack" the driver for your own purposes (it's illegal in Finland since jan 1st 2006, for example).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering
Some good reading.
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@Phonic
I know what reverse engineering is, and I've done it quite a bit myself.
However, to be legal here you'd need to rewrite the drivers completely. This might work in some country with lax copyright law.
This wouldn't work in Finland anymore though, the new Copyright law makes this illegal (at least if the goal is to circumvent a protection).