Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: redrumloa on April 21, 2003, 04:21:20 PM
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Since the other thread has deteriorated to the typical mud slinging I started a new one which WILL stay on topic. If you want to fling mud, go to the other one.
So the interest includes:
1)Loads of pics.
2)Unbiased as possible.
3)Don't hide either pros or cons.
4)First impressions.
Anything else? Looks like there will be multiple reviews, maybe seperate or possibly combined. Any feedback please post here.
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Sounds good to me.
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redfox
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Yes a good honest review would be nice and also let us know if the t-shirt fits ;-)
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@red:
re: off-topic -- Sorry, my fault. Feel free to moderate even me as required.
re: the real topic. I am waiting on a check from my employer so that I can buy the memory, video card, etcetera needed to build my machine. Once that's done, I'll start evaluating. I got a chance to tinker with Targhan's Pegasos machine Saturday during a visit and I can honestly say that I cannot wait. I am also buying a new digicam so it should come in especially handy.
Wayne
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@red
Things you might want to add:
How hard/easy was it to get your data&apps from your AOS-setup to the Peg.
What works, what not, what requires 3rd-party SW to be installed,
what needed manual adjustement/install.
How fast/slow is it compared to your UAE-setup (you are running
UAE or am I mistaken ?) But don't go back to typical benches with
no real use. Better use stuff like browsing or some GFX-work to
determin the difference.
Also try to compare how the stability is compared to an
"normal" OS3.x-setup. but don't do that before you got your
setup straight.
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Is there a list of working progs available anywhere?
edited by admin : off topic
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edited by admin : off topic
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There is a list at http://www.telusplanet.net/public/samel/pegasos/compatibility.txt
Eventhough there are currently 28 items in my compined bug- & feature-request list, I'd say MOS is ready for normal daily already. I have had no unexpected lock-ups for example.
Two utilities I tend to use all the time are causing a little problems. Magellan, giving wrong partitionsizes, has minor graphical bugs and sometimes freezes the computer when transferring a big file over the network.
The other one being AmigaAmp.
The lack of audio.device is a big minus. I would like to use HippoPlayer for example, but at the moment this is no possibility. Was told today that such thing will come eventually.
Now, my Pegasos's uptime is 9 hours.. been doing some normal daily routines all day, like: Irc, surfing the net, listening to mods with UADE, listening to MP3's with AmiNetRadio, typing text with CED PPC and using a mail client.. have even tested some WarpOS software which I'd suppose should less compatible.
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@Wayne,
edited by admin : off topic
On to the reason for this topic...
I look forward to anyone's reviews of Pegasos or AOne on this website. Now that there actually is new hardware, I am interested to see how it fares against the current crop of PC hardware (yes, P4 included).
I am also interested to hear reviews of MorphOS and (eventually...hopefully) OS4.
So start those reviews people! :-)
Regards,
Lee Stanford
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re: off-topic -- Sorry, my fault. Feel free to moderate even me as required.
Naw, I'm pointing no fingers. I was in there too:-) Same goes for me, moderate me where needed:-)
re: the real topic. I am waiting on a check from my employer so that I can buy the memory, video card, etcetera needed to build my machine. Once that's done, I'll start evaluating. I got a chance to tinker with Targhan's Pegasos machine Saturday during a visit and I can honestly say that I cannot wait. I am also buying a new digicam so it should come in especially handy.
I have a new camera to use so the pics from my end should be plentiful. While my Pegasos is arriving this week, i probably won't be assembling it until this weekend. I am lacking some basic parts like spare case, registered memory, vid card etc and there is a 'computer show' this weekend. We'll see if I can be patient though, I am VERY eager to fire it up, I may end up buying at a local dealer out of lack of patience. I am like this with any new computer toy, it's like I have ants in my pants;-)
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edited by admin : off topic
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Two questions
Can the pegasos machine be turned off straight away? (obviously without any disk activity)
Does it run 68K software great? (ie you do not notice any degrading from using PPC software then to 68K)
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@Paul
As to your first question, I saw Targhan's machine Saturday, and yes, it can be turned off by switch (no "shutdown" required).
As to the second part, I have ImageFX and a few other programs here that I'm going to test when I get this machine together. Will let you know.
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Thanks, i will rephrase the first question as it looks like comedy.
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@Paul_Gadd
Atm there are only 2 ways to turn a Peg down.
a) Pull the plug ;-)
b) Hold the PWR-button for a few sec till the PSU shuts off.
I'm sure you would notice quite a difference if you ran the 68k
version of a renderer and than compare it to an PPC one, but as
long as you use "normal" 68k-SW you won't notice any slowdown
even with the static-emu (JIT is still only for Betatester_1).
Stuff like GoldED (with highest coloring-setup in C++-mode) or
IBrowse work just as fast as on 1-2ghz WinUAE-setup.
The reason for this lies probraly partly in the missing under-
lying OS (like Windows), completly refusing to do any chipset
emu and the fact that these kind of SW runs mainly in the OS
(for calling GFX-routines/doing GUI-stuff) which is allready in PPC.
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I'd like to add one thing to Kronos' comment. 68k emulation is not only fast, but it is also very finished... pretty much anything systemfriendly you throw at it, it works.
/me napping fingers onto table and waits for JIT :)
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interesting.
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Does it have support for USB modems? (alcatel adsl)
Whats the power requirements to run a fully stocked board, 200 or 250 watt be enough?
Does it fit inside a Power Tower?
Does it come shipped with 3d drivers for the newer video cards? or available to download
Can it run newer Amiga PPC titles like Heretic 2/shogo/Quake 2?
How well do they run?
Will it eventually have support (licence) for OS4?
If i read correctly having OS4 on the peggy 2 may be impossible? (this may be aimed more at BBRV so apologies)
While on paper the pegy /2 looks like a nice bit of h/w and something i would even look at, but no os4 would mean i will only have 1 New h/w of choice for the New amiga OS ex. Classic PPC Amiga's.
Having both the Amigaone and pegy for choice on the new Amiga OS opens up alot more sales for Genesi.
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@Calen,
Good questions, but some of these things appear to be much better suited for an online FAQ than a review. Perhaps you should consider sending these to bbrv?
Wayne
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@Calen
There is a licence (and driver) for Poseidon included, so
if that supports your modem so will MorphOS.
If the PowerTower meets ATX-standard (which I doubt).
3D-drivers or in the work/testing.
Those games have been reported to run in SW-renderer, but
I have no personal experience as none of these games interest me.
About OS4 on the Peg.... oh well that is flame-war terretory ...
But I will say this:
As long as OS4 isn't out, Genesi isn't missing a single costumer,
and no we don't want to discuss how long it is till the A1-version
of OS4 (which would be the base for a potential Peg-version) is out.
I also think the "no OS4 for Peg" will mean more lost costumers to
Hyperion as it would to Genesi.
And yes this is just my opinion.
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Calen wrote:
Does it have support for USB modems? (alcatel adsl)
Check with the Poseiden documentation, but I think "no" at this time.
Whats the power requirements to run a fully stocked board, 200 or 250 watt be enough?
I'm running mine on 125W, if that helps
Does it fit inside a Power Tower?
Depends on which model. I believe there was a model that fit both an ATX and A1200 motherboard, so that model would work. But if it's straight Amiga form factor, then no
Does it come shipped with 3d drivers for the newer video cards? or available to download
Not at this time, as they are still in beta
Can it run newer Amiga PPC titles like Heretic 2/shogo/Quake 2?
I've seen it run Quake2, and someone told me they had Shogo running.
How well do they run?
Q2 ran like a champ
Will it eventually have support (licence) for OS4?
If i read correctly having OS4 on the peggy 2 may be impossible? (this may be aimed more at BBRV so apologies)
Up to Hyperion, as we have tried to discuss some kind of accomidation to no luck
While on paper the pegy /2 looks like a nice bit of h/w and something i would even look at, but no os4 would mean i will only have 1 New h/w of choice for the New amiga OS ex. Classic PPC Amiga's.
Having both the Amigaone and pegy for choice on the new Amiga OS opens up alot more sales for Genesi.
Have you given any thought to MorphOS?
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Thanks for your comments Kronos & downix
Have you given any thought to MorphOS?
I take into consideration its cost, what it can run and what support it has, OS4 has been and still is my OS of choice, having pegy to give me the choice to run whichever i want when i want is a big selling point to me, without OS4, it pretty much rules pegy out of my future h/w purchases which is a shame.
Not just for me but for other buyers who might have had pegy as one of there options but they to rule it out cause of no future OS4 and beyond...
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If I may have the soapbox for a moment... Here are some facts, please take them with a grain of salt.
The motherboard is a fairly standard micro-atx design (save for the backplate, which a replacement for most pc-backplates is included). Even some of the larger towers support this design. The screw-holes match up with any case that supports micro-atx.
The memory is picky. If you consider this solution, do your homework on memory before purchasing any dimms. I cannot emphasize this enough. I had no trouble, but I did my homework first. There are horror stories around about using the wrong memory, so this is where you must be careful.
Use UDMA cables, they allow for better data-transfer (btw, this also applies to amithlon setups). Remember disk-access affects anything that reads/writes a cache.
General perfomance: It's faster than my Amithlon ( 950MHZ ). No if's, and's, or but's... this thing is FAST. It makes Win2k on the same 950MHZ peecee (as amithlon) look like a Timex Sinclaire trying to run Quake.
Compatability: You're going to find mixed answers for this. I've got a compatability FAQ on MorphZone, with links to some other compatability links as well. The biggest thing that doesn't work, that I would like to work, is AmiDock. However, if you run Magellen or NetConnect's dock--you will hardly miss it.
To get back to my original point: do your homework. Whether you are building for MOS, OS4, Amithlon, or a PeeCee--do your homework. If you spend the time up front to check with others about what hardware works, and what does not, you will save yourself all kinds of headaches.
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>Can it run (...)
There is a (German) list done by DJBase of software
he uses with his Pegasos and MorphOS. You may
have a look here (http://www.djbase.de/pegasos/helpguide/mos13_kompatibilitaet.php) and check if your dialy
used software is listed there. Of course this list is
not complete, however everyone is free to send
DJBase a list of the software he or she used so that
it can be updated.
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is it possible to choke on vitamins suchas flintstones vitamins? :-?
(/me hehehehhhehe)
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edited by admin : off topic
Hehe no, that's a fake edit. :-D
I just wanted to say that, even though Red's review will no doubt be interesting, if all goes well I won't need it. :-)
And something Wayne and Red don't need me to advise either: you'll have to be sharp on that edit button, since the trolls will have a field day when you do post the review.
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Targhan wrote:
If I may have the soapbox for a moment... Here are some facts, please take them with a grain of salt.
The motherboard is a fairly standard micro-atx design (save for the backplate, which a replacement for most pc-backplates is included). Even some of the larger towers support this design. The screw-holes match up with any case that supports micro-atx.
The memory is picky. If you consider this solution, do your homework on memory before purchasing any dimms. I cannot emphasize this enough. I had no trouble, but I did my homework first. There are horror stories around about using the wrong memory, so this is where you must be careful.
Use UDMA cables, they allow for better data-transfer (btw, this also applies to amithlon setups). Remember disk-access affects anything that reads/writes a cache.
General perfomance: It's faster than my Amithlon ( 950MHZ ). No if's, and's, or but's... this thing is FAST. It makes Win2k on the same 950MHZ peecee (as amithlon) look like a Timex Sinclaire trying to run Quake.
Compatability: You're going to find mixed answers for this. I've got a compatability FAQ on MorphZone, with links to some other compatability links as well. The biggest thing that doesn't work, that I would like to work, is AmiDock. However, if you run Magellen or NetConnect's dock--you will hardly miss it.
To get back to my original point: do your homework. Whether you are building for MOS, OS4, Amithlon, or a PeeCee--do your homework. If you spend the time up front to check with others about what hardware works, and what does not, you will save yourself all kinds of headaches.
Do you have any 68k-based benchmarks (e.g. Amiga Mark)?
(All of my AMD Athlon based boxes exceeds 1.3Ghz…)
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Hi All!
Of course, we are interested in getting as much feedback as possible. Sending out the motherboards as we have was a risk as the number of configurations conceived and implemented is beyond our control. Nevertheless, the feedback has been useful and tremendous. The next thing are of course the applications.
Information about this is the subject of discussion here (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=183&post_id=1354&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=1353&forum=9#1354) and on the Phoenix mailing list. Anton Reinauer is starting to get the whole bundled application list organized and once this is fairly solid we will start putting the whole thing together.
We are thinking this package might be a tool to assist the Resellers in getting their efforts off the ground. Just ideas at this point that we will begin discussing at PhReseller@phinixi.com this week.
Thanks to all you new Pegasos owners!
Best regards,
Raquel and Bill :-)
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[Amiga Mark]
Unfortunately, I've not had the time to devote to benchmarking. Instead, I've written an installer to fix something that annoyed me about MorphOS (it has cool skins, but they were annoying to install/change. So, I had to do something about it!), and of coarse that means I hosed it up a lot. Now that I've got that released, I'll be adding software and testing things.
I've been meaning to give AmiGOD a whirl, but haven't got off of my tail to do it yet ;-)
I would love to have done a review of the Pegasos, but it's difficult to not be biased. It's one of those things that when you get it in your possesion--you know you've got something special. I guess it's worth noting that it was easier to install Pegasos than Amithlon, but not as easy as an Amiga (from floppy) install.
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Targhan wrote:
I would love to have done a review of the Pegasos, but it's difficult to not be biased.
This was the case with my review (http://snews.vim.hu/pages/200101/pegasoseng.htm) too. Many things changed since I wrote it, I've discovered new bugs, and new stunning features I didn't dream of before (have u checked what your middle mouse button can make with an ambient window? and when you click it twice? :-)), yet I think the review is still fair as being only 6 days after receiving my Pegasos.
And for a full depth review I still don't feel myself experienced enough. These days I'm busy watching all the huge movies which my BVPPC/060 was not fast enough for. :-)
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Methinks that an Amithlon is much faster (emulated CPU wise) than the current Pegasos with G3. This depends on the machine/real cpu you use though. But Amithlon will never look like these...
MorphZone's desktop gallery (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=ambient2k3)
Mine is in the lower right corner. :-)
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@Warface
Which is just the exact same reason why I have been waiting, and will wait till MorphOS gets next update.
No reason to go out spreading false or inaccurate for public because one hasn't gotten even used to the new OS.
I discover new bugs and lack of features almost every day. And the bugs which are not fixed, or simple features not added in next update, I will of course mention in my review.
Doing a review of something one don't know very well reminds me of a boy who is just about to lose his virginity.. just when it gets exciting we find out that the thing has decided to go off ;-)
Excuse for lame metaphoras .. its because of the damn heat!!
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@Wayne:
I am waiting on a check from my employer so that I can buy the memory, video card, etcetera needed to build my machine. Once that's done, I'll start evaluating. I got a chance to tinker with Targhan's Pegasos machine Saturday during a visit and I can honestly say that I cannot wait. I am also buying a new digicam so it should come in especially handy.
Yowzers! I though you were an X86 only man these days and not remotely interested in any new "amiga-like" machine if it was on PPC. Guess I was wrong - sorry.
@Everyone:
It wasn't that long ago that I was convinced I'd never say this but:
I have ordered mine today. :pint:
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/me being slightly disoriented/
The Peg is currently not able to run AOS but will I be able to run MOS on A1? :-? My supplier has both boards and MOS do look very nice.
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In theory, why not. Depends of AmigaOne vs Pegasos2 price I guess.. if MOS will someday run on AmigaOne, and if AmigaOne will be considerebly cheaper than Peg2.
But there are so many if's I wouldn't get my hopes up.
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hmm.. thx. just have to wait and see, i guess.
how is pc networking with the peg/mos?
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I get better transfer speeds from XP -> Pegasos (with NcFTP) than from XP -> XP (FlashFXP). I have 10mb homenetwork and run samba to share drives. Works like a dream with MiamiDX.
I did have problems with internal networkcard and its drivers though, broken in MOS1.3 as has worked on MOS1.2 I heard.
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And you can do VNC stuff aswell? I saw some pix on http://thendipo.alias.domicile.fr/us/ of a VNC client.
Some of my work can only be done from a x86 (java), so I figured it would be kewl if I could work on the MOS and let the pc handle the pc native stuff.
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@filson
Hopefully when everyone gets their Pegasos/A1 boards and both OS`s have been out for while, the developers on both sides will do a version for the other board.
Move customers more revenue.
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@Wayne
I am waiting on a check from my employer so that I can buy the memory, video card, etcetera needed to build my machine. Once that's done, I'll start evaluating. I got a chance to tinker with Targhan's Pegasos machine Saturday during a visit and I can honestly say that I cannot wait. I am also buying a new digicam so it should come in especially handy.
Wow so you went to the trouble of laying out for a Pegasos but
didn't order the bits needed to get up and running?
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@red
Forgive me if someone else has asked this question, but I only have experience with the "Classic" Amiga boxes. I have no idea what a Pegasos actually is, although I've heard others talk about it. Could you elaborate? I'd really like to know. Is it like an A1, or something totally different? Would it be something that I could appreciate, as someone who is more at home with soldering and metalworking? Or is it something more for programming types? Thanks for any info.
Regards...Art
:-)
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For all intents and purposes its the same concept as the
A1 except the lord giveth ( e.g. a firewire revision ) and
taketh away ( e.g. a PCI slot ) with two major exceptions.
Exception 1: It doesn't and doesn't seem to have no prospect of
running any official Amiga OS post 3.9. (add) A1 does not yet have a
post 3.9 OS release on it.
Exception 2: The AmigaONE XE and up uses a CPU slot and has available
processors for G3/G4 upgrades which are completely incompatible
with the Pegasos CPU slot which is *promised* to have its
own G4 model Real Soon Now and is probably On Schedule
And Rocking. Frankly I prefer to chuck the whole board away and
upgrade more than just a CPU but horses for courses.
Every other difference is minor. You can emulate AOS3.x
on both - at the moment on A1 through UAE and on Pegasos
the same and also hosted on a "sandbox" on its Amiga A Like
OS "MorphOS".
No doubt this is going to turn into a bitch frag but those
are the major differences for a newcomer who is classic
Amiga savvy and doesn't care about the finer points of motherboard
technology ( e.g. not a trainspotter ).
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@DaveP
I would say that was a pretty much, straightforward way of putting it.
Can`t see any reason for you to get flamed for that.
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Yep. Totally unbiased and fair description.
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>And you can do VNC stuff aswell?
There is a VNC client available called zvnc:
http://zapek.meanmachine.ch/ (http://zapek.meanmachine.ch/)
It has no display support and is only meant to control
other machines that have an own display.
If you need display support there are VNC client and
server software available in Aminet.
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DaveP wrote:
Wow so you went to the trouble of laying out for a Pegasos but
didn't order the bits needed to get up and running?
Not exactly. Gensi sent him an evaluation board. Wayne will have to send it back when he is done, I'd expect.
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the grass allways looks greener or should i
say bluer on the other side and the moaners
and groaners start on gensi like amiga inc
allthough the cheap pegasos board looks
good and i think emulating each system will
happen just like warp os emulates powerup ?
:-o and what about Amiga DE on both systems
then producing software might be viable
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artman wrote:
@red
Forgive me if someone else has asked this question, but I only have experience with the "Classic" Amiga boxes. I have no idea what a Pegasos actually is, although I've heard others talk about it. Could you elaborate? I'd really like to know. Is it like an A1, or something totally different? Would it be something that I could appreciate, as someone who is more at home with soldering and metalworking? Or is it something more for programming types? Thanks for any info.
Regards...Art
:-)
Dave described it pretty well. I will add from a user perspection(of what I expect) from my understanding. It is a PPC motherboard capable of running MOS. MOS is a new OS with some compatability to amigaOS 3.X software. It was made with Amiga users in mind.
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@DaveP
Putting MorphOS in the same categorey with UAE is quite a stretch ....
MorphOS runs on its own (the Quark-kernel is just an invisible part).
MorphOS runs PPC-SW written for PuP/WOS, UAE doesn't.
MorphOS has a 100% native OS, while UAE has only a partly native
GFX-driver (which redirected through XWindows instead of going
directly to the HW).
MorphOS has it own native PPC-apps, UAE doesn't.
MorphOS(non-JIT) 68k emu is about 5-10 times faster than UAE on
the same CPU (and the native OS helps speeding up 68k-SW even more).
So comparing UAE to MorphOS is like comparing an A500 to a full featured
Draco (or A4000/060).
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@ Wilse
Wilse wrote:
It wasn't that long ago that I was convinced I'd never say this but:
I have ordered mine today. :pint:
:-o :-o :-o :-o :-o
Good for you! :-)
Did you have any problems in finding a dealer with Pegasos'es in stock, or did you get one from Phoenix?
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DaveP
there is one differance wich (if you look at it in a certin light) is major... that bieng the issue of the dongle or rom or whatever you want to call it on the AmigaOne... that for me was the decideing factor that I was going for a Pegasos...
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@DaveP
Thanks for taking the time to explain things to me, looks like something I'm going to keep an eye on, although I'm into the Clasic Amiga at this time, it's only natural to evolve to something else at a later time. Thanks agian...Art
:-)
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@red
Thank you also for responding, I really appreciate all of you helping me to better understand the new focus that the Amiga and it's OS is taking. Who would have thought back in "86"?
:-o
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artman wrote:
@red
Thank you also for responding, I really appreciate all of you helping me to better understand the new focus that the Amiga and it's OS is taking. Who would have thought back in "86"?
:-o
No problem:-) I just want to make sure you understand thought that Pegasos/MorphOS is not 'the Amiga'. This has been the cause of countless flamewars and I really don't want another to start:-) It *is* somewhat Amiga compatible and of interest to Amiga users, but the AmigaOne/OS4 is the official path. No one can say which one will be better, only time will tell.
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artman wrote:
@red
Thank you also for responding, I really appreciate all of you helping me to better understand the new focus that the Amiga and it's OS is taking. Who would have thought back in "86"?
:-o
Who would have thought back in -96? :-)
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Hooligan: Who would have thought back in -96? :-)
Dare I even mention '06? ; }
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When is Trance going to be once again available?
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@strobe:
At last, a constructive use for an avatar - thanks, that's a very interesting and useful site.
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@Redrumloa
Thanks for clearing that up.
@Kronos
I did not say it was UAE or compared it to that depth, but Im sure the extra info is appreciated.
@mips_proc
IIRC you were pretty pro pegasos and anti Amiga Inc before the "Rom Dongle" debacle. :-D
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the whole reason I got into the community again was because of the AmigaOne DaveP ... then it soured for me when I heard 'rom' and 'dongle' and whatnot bieng thrown around... and then a gust of fresh air...the Pegasos... but my point is that it is quite a big deal... it's not something to 'ignore...
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@tmhg:
Did you have any problems in finding a dealer with Pegasos'es in stock, or did you get one from Phoenix?
The lovely Phoenix people! :pint:
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mips_proc wrote:
the whole reason I got into the community again was because of the AmigaOne DaveP ... then it soured for me when I heard 'rom' and 'dongle' and whatnot bieng thrown around... and then a gust of fresh air...the Pegasos... but my point is that it is quite a big deal... it's not something to 'ignore...
What exactly does this 'dongle' on the A1 stop you from doing and in what way is the Pegasos any different?
The way I see it, at the moment, they're both in exactly the same boat. You can't run MorphOS on an A1 and you can't run AOS4 on a Pegasos.
Until that changes, your point is not only completely irrelevant but also misleading.
That's why I'm getting both!
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Wilse: That's why I'm getting both!
Am I going to have to come over there and take that Pegasos away from you, Wilse? ; }
Seriously, I look forward to hearing some great music from you and seeing you cranking out audio for the apps and games developers. And it's been a pleasure making sure you and the others get what's coming to y-- er, get your Pegaoses ; }
All the best,
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Wilse wrote:
That's why I'm getting both!
Hope to see the reviews soon :-)
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Wilse wondered:
What exactly does this 'dongle' on the A1 stop you from doing and in what way is the Pegasos any different?
;-) The way I understand it, AmigaOS 4 and later will look for proprietary code in the motherboard’s BIOS ROM at boot time. If it isn’t there, it will not boot, and you can’t run the OS.
If a manufacturer wishes to add such code to his motherboards, so that his customers can run AOS 4, he will have to license the “dongle code” from Amiga, Inc. The license will require that any board manufactured with such code onboard must be sold with a copy of AmigaOS 4, and not without it.
The sum of these two requirements is that anyone who CAN run AmigaOS 4 will already have a copy, so the pirate has no one to whom to sell his fifty or so burned “backup” copies of AmigaOS 4.
This decision was made by Amiga, Inc., who have more data than most of the rest of us regarding just how many copies of AOS 3.9 are legit, and how many are pirate. Whether the decision to require “dongle code” on the motherboard is a wise decision or not is another matter, and goes beyond the scope of this thread.
:roll: It’s also been the subject for many flame wars on this and other web sites.
Genesis’ Pegasos doesn’t have Amiga’s code onboard, and so will not be able to run AOS4. MorphOS does not require anything similar to Amiga’s “dongle code” and thus should run on an AmigaOne. (Whether it will is another matter. Someone will surely try it and let us know.)
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On the edge of going off topic again ... ;-)
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Either way it is a spurious difference to most people and
only if you want to take up a political stance over it will you remotely care. If enough Peg/Peg2 owners want to run AOS4 on their Pegs then Im sure they can arrange with a reseller for the reseller to get a license.
However if you ARE interested in taking a political stance over it then Seehund put together a petition against it but I don't remember where it was. I know its in his sig so if you do a search for Seehund you will probably come to the petition.
Back on the review, can you make sure you run as many games/demos as you possibly can? Compile something, use StormC or whatever. One of the things that is going to sell or not sell these new PPC solutions is their ability to run existing programs that people have forked out wodges for.
Stuff like:
PageStream 4.1
Aladdin 4D
Hisoft C++
Storm C
etc...
That requires money to get a license.
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There are a couple of compatibility lists floating around. Here's a couple of links for anyone interested:
Link 1 (French) (http://gilles.mathevet.free.fr/pegasos/programme.html) - English translation (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr?tt=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgilles.mathevet.free.fr%2Fpegasos%2Fprogramme.html&lp=fr_en) by altavista.
Link 2 (http://www.djbase.de/pegasos/helpguide/mos13_kompatibilitaet.php)
I believe there is going to be a central list at some point in time.
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DaveP wrote:
Stuff like:
PageStream 4.1
Aladdin 4D
Hisoft C++
Storm C
etc...
Sorry, but AFAIK both AmigaOS4 and MorphOS will rely on GCC. Having those 68K (and WarpOS) target compilers is rather pointless IMHO. Again, AFAIK it's VBCC which has up to date target support besides GCC, but it's claimed to produce slower code (maybe easier to use and program for/with) and most importantly free.
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Not at all pointless. Without this you will find it difficult to
write/build stuff for earlier Amigas.
If you cant use something system friendly like StormC and Hisoft C then MorphOS can't be up to much ;-).
I am sure that over time people will migrate to GCC but to start with they will want something familiar.
Tell me, what is to stop me installing Dice C on MorphOS and the includes from the Developer CD 2.1 and running a compile job?
:-?
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@greenboy:
Am I going to have to come over there and take that Pegasos away from you, Wilse? ; }
Aarrgggghhh! :hammer:
Me locks the doors, boards up the windows and hides the peg..oh! It ain't here yet! :-D
Seriously, I look forward to hearing some great music from you and seeing you cranking out audio for the apps and games developers.
Indeedy-oh! I can't wait to get my hands on PSA and start putting it through it's paces.
And it's been a pleasure making sure you and the others get what's coming to y-- er, get your Pegaoses ; }
I appreciate it very much.
Cheers! :pint:
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DaveP wrote:
Not at all pointless. Without this you will find it difficult to
write/build stuff for earlier Amigas.
Why would you develop with something that has no support for your current OS? I doubt StormC or HiSoftC will support OS4 or MOS.
Back in the old days I abandoned MasterSeka assembler when I got my A1200 and used AsmOne instead - never used MasterSeka to write 68000 only programs on my A1200, as AsmOne was able to do that and of course had 68020 support too.
GCC and VBCC has support for 68K/PUP/WOS/MOS and surely will have support for OS4.
-
So in regards to this dongle stuff does it mean that AOS 4.1+ will have to be shipped with new hardware aswell? regardless of the fact that one already have a board with official OS? or is it going to be all boing bag stuff till each next major revision of the hardware?
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@Warface
Because you might want to write stuff that works for more
than just the few hundred that own and run MorphOS.
Do the current ADKs and compilers with the new OSes ( osses? osssesss? damn plurals ) also have previous version of the OS support that is rock solid/stable and all the includes required?
Plus there is also the case where someone doesn't want to sit down and work out how to learn makefiles instead of using projects - or how to migrate from SAS for example. People like a gradual transition.
Actually I use HisoftC for project building and code editing and GCC for compilation anyway so it wouldn't be a problem for *me*.
The point being, just because you don't understand why someone would want to do it, doesn't mean that someone doesn't have a valid reason for wanting to do it *or* will not actually want to do it. :-D
Methinks you doth protest too much ;-)
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DaveP wrote:
@Warface
Methinks you doth protest too much ;-)
No way, I don't use Amiga C compilers at all, it was just striking and surprising to me :-) And still it is :-)
Someone will surely test them tho, as I'm rarely using C I don't have them. (StormC costs a fortune, dunno about HiSoftC) So it will hopefully turn out. :-)
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StormC costs a fortune
hmm, haage-partner has a discount on the stormc right now.
its 49.95 euro atm.
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@DaveP
When my Peg was brandnew I tried StormC_4 (on MOS-1.1).
The compiler itself worked o.k., but the big list gadget
in the project-windows had trashed GFX. Haven't tried it under
newer MOS-versions as I switched to a GoldED+GCC setup.
Never saw a reason to look back, cos it does all StormC did
(except the debugger, but I never used that) in a nicer way.
It is easy to setup as GoldED comes with ready to run versions
of both vbcc (68k,PuP,WOS,MOS) and gcc (68k +?WOS?).
All I had to do was to set the GG-assigns to the MOS-GG install,
and if I ever wanted to compile 68k again I could easily
revert that.
-
I will load and test StormC 3 and 4 this weekend. Personally, I like StormC; I just haven't had the time to test it.
Here is something that I've not been able to get to work yet: PPaint 7.1. I've tried different PPaint settings, and it hasn't worked yet. From the way it acts, it could be a settings issue on CyberGraphics, but I'm not sure.
I really like the netconnect-2 toolbar on the system, it works well. Unfortunately, the tools menu hack does not work :-( There goes my favorite menu-item "unLZX" :-/
I've heard that some folks have gotten ImageFX to work, but I haven't tried that yet either. Other things I intend to test include: ArtEffect, Rexecute, BlitzBasic, AmigaWriter, FinalWriter, and Opus5.
What I've tested (myself) so far: AmIRC, Voyager, IBrowse, Microdot-II, ContactManager (vapor version), Miami (not dx), Genesis (mui--does not work with dial up), AmTelnet, GoldED, BareED, X-Arc, SnoopDOS, and my on little "SkinShuffle." Oh yeah, I've tested Filer from the Aminet CD's. There are probably some other mundane things I've tested, but can't think of right now ;-)
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I've heard that some folks have gotten ImageFX to work, but I haven't tried that yet either. Other things I intend to test include: ArtEffect, Rexecute, BlitzBasic, AmigaWriter, FinalWriter, and Opus5.
ImageFX4 works beautifully. Which is odd, even more stable than when I run it on real Amiga. It tend to be a bit unstable with PowerPC plugins and in overall.
Maybe because I now have less patches, or maybe it didn't work on P96/PicassoIV correctly... who knows. Can't be memory issue though, I have more memory on my Amiga than on my Peggy.
-
Btw, big Thanks must go to Heikki Orsila who sold it to me for 20 finnish marks (a bit over 3€) after he won it at Finnish Amiga Users Club's lottery.
It sure has paid it's price :-D
-
basically DaveP you're saying people will want to write apps that run in emulation when they can write apps that will run native?... i like the idea of native MOS apps... or OS4 (should I buy it someday) apps... out with the old...in with the new...
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Just a few quick notes:
We have spoken to Juergen Haage about a special StormC release for MorphOS, but that is all that has happened so far...just a discussion.
In the meanwhile Felix Schwarz has taken over the management of the PhApp mailing list and is beginning to do an excellent job organizing third party development. The essence of Felix's efforts:
o relations with third party developers
o 3rd party developer support
o primary source of developer information and news
o stimulate the creativity of 3rd party developers by providing means for them to discuss and organize
o help to keep track of the big picture regarding 3rd party developments
o constantly seeking for interesting projects - forward info on those of strategic interest to Genesi
Felix, may also work with Genesi developers so that they *can* take part in discussions as well or use the ideas brought up in the PhApp discussions.
In the meanwhile Genesi will handle:
o core MOS and employed developers
o technical, organizational and communication infrastructure
o contracting (for bundling) of important/essential developments
o the organizational chart
Finally, here is a small status update on the SDK:
GoldED/MorphED: Dietmar has begun full-time work on MorphED last Friday and is still working on it.
Cheers!
Raquel and Bill :-)
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GoldED -> MorphED...
ahem...
SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!!!
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If only you could convince someone to port and update FileMaster to MOS... (sigh, I'd better quit dreaming :-))
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@ bbrv
1) Any thoughts of a Basic compiler/IDE, á la AMOS, Blitz, etc?
2) You are saying that MorphED = GoldED, *morphed* (:-P) into a MorphOS native version? :-o :-)
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@mips
People will want to do everything with a new system that
you haven't told them that they cannot do.
@takemehomegrandma
I just knew someone would bring up AMOS ;-)
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DaveP wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
I just knew someone would bring up AMOS ;-)
To write some more Vulcan Software Games? ;-)
-
...hey guys tell us how...;-)
R&B
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Hi BBRV
Just contact Blitz author (Mark Silby) and ask if He's interested on gettign a lot new users to his Software (+ nice licensing deal for
inclusion of that software with every Pegasos).. I have Blitz3D for windowse and it's just great.
And next version is going to be even better for porting cause it'll
uses OpenGL and has Mac + Linux suport alongside WIndowse..
Based on Website (www.blitzbasic.co.nz), he lives in Aucland NZ, it's relatively close to australia and there is Cebit
there quite soon? ;-)
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Those Blitz3D screenshots are surely convincing. There will be a little trouble on Amiga side to generate formats it accepts (3DS, BSP), but it still seems to be simple and yet very powerful.
(Wonder why I didn't know about it? :-))
-
There are also time-limited demo versions of those softwares on
download area. Unfortunately one needs to have Windowse PC to use
them. Those Blitz formats are so well defined there are translation
tools for many common 3D softwares. Of course getting them to Mos
woudl be a bit hard, but personally I would be quite happy with even
2D version of that Software.
*mostly irrelevant sidenote*... This and my previous message on
this thread have been written using Voyager Running on Pegasos/Mos1.3.
:-)
-
If they fix up powerbasic for MOS it does most of the 2D stuff from the PC blitz distibution.
-
Thanks Joanna, we will check it out. Also, thanks for the PM. Things are starting to get normal again for us and we are coming back to focus again on all theings Genesi...:-)
Speaking of New Zealand we had "fman" here in our new Genesi Paris office yesterday. His real name is Francois Prowse and we all thought it was pretty cool he came by ALL THE WAY from New Zealand (Ok, he was on his honeymoon with his new wife from Holland, but still :-D ). Earlier in the week we had Gunne Steen, so we are thinking of getting a map up with Pegasos pins in all the locations the Pegasos can be found in the world. Plus, we are thinking to post a Pegasos visitor list too... ;-)
Anyway, have a great day!
Raquel and Bill :-)
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...anyone else?
:-D
R&B
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@bbrv
Yep, me too BBRV, don't forget.
I'm still holding a huge amount of interest in getting a pegasos, just getting my business off the ground. (btw we're now open, Jenn and I got the business license last thursday ;)
Cheers,
Lorne in Canada
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@ JoannaK:
As you will know, "BlitzMax" (based on OpenGL) is still a looooong way off. Don't even think about it for now, Joanna. Also, there is a new release called BlitzPlus which is aimed towards more serious programmers but was designed specificially to use the Window GUI (native windows, etc.). Porting BlitzPlus wouldn't be easy either even though it lacks all the cool 3D features.
Please note that the basic idea to have something like Blitz3D running on MorphOS, is most certainly an exciting one. This could increase the quantity of released software by quite a bit. I just feel that the PC version of Blitz is probably not an option at this point in time. Perhaps we should rather concentrate to support efforts such as PowerD or a MorphOS port of AmiBlitz2000 (Open Source variant of the former BlitzBasic for Amiga).
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Yikes!
We forgot about you Lorne!!!!
Sorry.
The Phoenix Game Team was slowed down slightly by a customer who keeps changing his mind... :-? BUT, things will be back on track next week... :-D
More soon!
R&B
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@JoannaK
My first time typing a responce on the Pegasos as well. (I'm
downloading the apps I need in order to work, my PC died on Thursday,
poor old Athlon 500 couldn't take it any more)
-
Hi Nate, in this case we are VERY interested to know how it is going...there will be another 40 new Pegasos owners next week that will probably need some assistance...:-)
Raquel and Bill
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The DHL guy was here at 8:30am this morning. :-) I haven't torn open the box yet to look at all the stuff inside, but I was once again reminded just how small the board is by the size of the box. It's the size of the box most harddrives come in.. :-o
I've got the digital camera out, and will take shots for a write up I'll do once it's up and running.
As a side note, it's rather interesting how tracking systems can be fouled up. The package was listed as leaving Brussels on the 25th. The last entry this morning said it had arrived at the Brussels facility on the 27th. :-P
-
A friend of mine received his board today as well. He was just as surprised when the delivery guys handed him over the package :-) His Pegasos works flawlessly so far, and he's busy trying the applications. :-)
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@bbrv
So far so good, been spending the past few days finding the most
optimum configuration of hardware, using the spare parts I have lying
around. So far, gotten the best performance out of this:
Permedia 2, got 3% faster redraw than my Voodoo and 14% faster than my
S3. Don't have a Radeon to test, but Linux liked my Rage128 quite
well (and it is an OF card, so got the system booted and configured
faster).
A 128MB stick (Samsung unregistered memory, of all things) and a 64MB
Viking ECC have given me the least amount of hastle. (running just
one I kept having system reboots or shutdowns after an hour or so,
together I'm having no problems)
Conexant based TV tuner card, best thing since the VCR I feel.
external Zoom 56k modem, gets better performance under Miami than
Linux's integrated TCP stack.
Hard drive is where I keep getting hit hard, as I can't use the
largest HD, as that's got all of my data on it (don't want to rely
100% on the tape backups). So I'm running a 4GB IBM and a 1.8GB
Western Digital. (the WD is my old A1200's hard drive)
CD-ROM is a Phillips model. My CD-RW keeps powering-down during reads
for some unusual reason unless there is a second CD-ROM on the same
IDE channel.
ethernet is running fine, have a network between the Pegasos and my
in-laws PC (which has my tape backup SCSI drive attached to it at the
moment).
Monitor is some no-name 15" that has been in constant use since the
early 90's.
Other than some issues with Microdot-2, software has been a breeze.
(Thanks everyone that's pointed out some great apps to use) I even
began porting some of the apps I've created over to MorphOS, to see
how well they'd do.
-
My board is here and it is working flawelessly so far:-D
-
Andre: I know that BlitzMax is a big project for (essentially) single coder but if he's going to make Linux + Mac versios of it anyhow, then he have to solve most problems anyhow. Like moving to OpenGL and supporting PPC byte order thruout entire environment.
IMHO after those two hindrances are done rest of MOS port should be quite doable. Of course things like GUI are system dependant but I have been in assumption some of those details are going to be solved by Mos team anyhow (due other porting projects?).
Blitz 2000 could be nice but it is years behind in development, and making it to behave cleanly and producing PPC code is a *lot* work.
-
If only you could convince someone to port and update FileMaster to MOS
The FM sources are on Aminet (FM2000) .. we can only hope.. ;-)
A MUI gui and better datatype & RTG support.. Ahh!
I asked Toni about it, but he said that those new machines aren't Amigas, so he's not going to bother.
(Amiga == Classic Amiga to him :-)
Who needs Dopus when you have Filemaster. ;-)
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Congrats Redrumloa!
Make sure you get on the beta2 m/l. There is lots of good information there. Also, swing by MorphZone's faqs. If you see anything missing, let me know.
My Pegasos is great. I think the biggest issue I have with it is based on the picky-ness of the RAM. I hope this is corrected for P-II. :-)
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@ Joanna
I know that BlitzMax is a big project for (essentially) single coder but if he's going to make Linux + Mac versios of it anyhow, then he have to solve most problems anyhow. Like moving to OpenGL and supporting PPC byte order thruout entire environment.
The question is not how much work it will be to support MorphOS in addition to MacOS, but *when* BlitzMax for Mac will be released. I strongly believe that BlitzMax for Windows is at least one year away from being finished. The next version that is likely to appear after the Windows version, is quite obviously the Linux port. This should take another 3 months before he can concentrate on the Mac version....
As you can see, BlitzMax is far from being a short-term solution. Moreover, it is not sure whether BlitzMax will get done at all. There is a high risk involved.
Blitz 2000 could be nice but it is years behind in development, and making it to behave cleanly and producing PPC code is a *lot* work.
Yet it is probably a more realistic option than BlitzMax. (See above.)
-
Targhan wrote:
Congrats Redrumloa!
Make sure you get on the beta2 m/l. There is lots of good information there. Also, swing by MorphZone's faqs. If you see anything missing, let me know.
My Pegasos is great. I think the biggest issue I have with it is based on the picky-ness of the RAM. I hope this is corrected for P-II. :-)
Thanks for the advise. I won't be doing much for the next day or 2. I'm very sick atm :-x I hate being sick, and this is the worst type :-x
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@redrum:
(http://www.cnib.ca/score/score2000/project_food/images/orange%20juice.jpg)
Drink lots of it and get well soon :-).
-
Well I got mine yesterday. I went out and bought the missing components and I'm attempting to get it to run. ;)
I got the whole thing setup by around 11pm. Had a problem with the CDRom, moved it to the primary bus (as slave) and that cleared up.
Tried getting MOS to boot up, it just seems to stop after it's done loading everything. Haven't had much chance to try and see what the serial debug will say.
So far, well, the BIOS looks familiar... (stares at the SUN station in my office.)
-
I was so close to giving up last night. If I tried to play anything with AHI the machine locked. If I tried to use the onboard ethernet the machine locked. Put in a Realtek 8139 nic and ditto.
Right before giving up I tried one more thing and presto: Everything worked.
-
...well we definately need a better "help" system for the mass market.
We REALLY appreciate the dedication. Thanks for ALL the effort.
Best regards,
Raquel and Bill :-)
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We have had some excellent feedback.
Thanks!
Raquel and Bill :-)
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(http://lka.hu/pic/alkotok/emericshot/emeric_sm.jpg)
If you'd like to have a similar desktop download the desktop background here (http://snews.vim.hu/bootlogo04d.png)
Please don't use it in anything commercial, as the winged horse is from a photo I found on the net, just retouched it a bit. Hope you like it (and I typed all Xoops stuff right in IBrowse :-))
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Thanks for making that background available! It's really sharp
looking.
@BBRV: The community wants to help, I think all of us (no matter
which side of the fence we are on) are hungry for success.
@redrumloa and other new Pegasos owners:
1. Congradulations
2. If you need any help, don't hesitate to ask.
-
If you'd like to have a similar desktop download the desktop background here
Link doesn't work anymore :-(
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Cool desktop!
:-D
R&B
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Cool desktop!
:-D
R&B
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Well... I'm finally posting this via my Pegasos!
I spent too much time trying various tricks to get my Catweasel to
read amiga disks. In the end I ended up simply trying another drive
(ending up disabling another PC.)
Oh well...
Set up so far: USB, Catweasel (PC and Amiga disk support), Miami,
AMISSL, Rexx, Installer. YAY... I'm even able to do my online
banking via my webbrowser! It's *almost* there. :)
I'm quite pleased with the results. Now I'm going to need to spend
some time repairing my PC's. :P
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Hooligan_DCS wrote:
If you'd like to have a similar desktop download the desktop background here
Link doesn't work anymore :-(
One more time it's me to blame: it happens that I mistyped something being busy with the Xoops stuff. I referred to the image as jpg, but it's a png. Hope it works now, and sorry for the inconvenience.
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Thanks for the very informative posts redromlua.
Just one quick question to readers of this thread. If (i.e. it's hypothetical) OS4 was a competent effort and made available on Pegasos / Pegasos II at a fair price, would you buy it? Personally, I think OS4 on the Pegasos would be a win-win situation for everyone involved. And if (again, that 'if' is important) Pegasos users are willing to buy OS4, maybe Hyperion can be coaxed in writing a version for it.
Hyperion would sell more copies, developers would have a larger base, Pegasos owners would have more choice, clashes in the community would be mitigated and Genesis could concentrate more on hardware.
Finally, a more technical question. Would the Peg run happily in a MicroATX case with a 150W PSU. I have an old PC with a Voodoo3 3000 Card, 128Mb Samsung DIMM and 12Gb IBM Hard Disk. It seems ideal to be turned in a Pegasos computer (currently uses an ALI Aladdin board with a Cyrix 550MHz CPU).
Thanks ppl
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Jethro_Tull wrote:
Thanks for the very informative posts redromlua.
Just one quick question to readers of this thread. If (i.e. it's hypothetical) OS4 was a competent effort and made available on Pegasos / Pegasos II at a fair price, would you buy it? Personally, I think OS4 on the Pegasos would be a win-win situation for everyone involved. And if (again, that 'if' is important) Pegasos users are willing to buy OS4, maybe Hyperion can be coaxed in writing a version for it.
I for one would definitely buy OS4 sooner or later. It's not just about the OS (which I can compare to MOS then, and use the better) but about having new Hyperion game titles for my Pegasos as well as I have almost all of their older titles.
Hope a dual boot will be possibble (in case OS4 will be available for Pegasos one day of course)
EDIT
Have I mentioned that the farthest texture of the desktop background below started it's carrier as an OS4 backdrop? :-) Well, it was a few months back though, I didn't have my pegasos back then.
-
Multiple boot options for OS4, MacOnLinux and maybe MorphOS would definitly the best option. Is a program similar to Partition Magic available for the Peg?
-
I would certainly buy it to run alongside
MOS (hypothetically).
-
Jethro, just sent you the video. The system you described works fine.
R&B :-)