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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: alexh on February 16, 2006, 09:44:21 PM
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Hi everyone,
I've got a problem with the information on the Big Book of Amiga hardware about the Amiga custom chip revisions. At best it's sketchy, at worse it's just plain wrong.
The "regular" table about Agnuses (Agni?) is here:
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=1448
Agnus (512K) 8361 252125-01 A1000 (NTSC), A2000A (NTSC)
Agnus (512K) 8361 R3
Agnus (512K) 8367 252362-01 A1000 (PAL), A2000A (PAL)
Agnus (512K) 8370 318070-01 A500 (NTSC), A2000 (NTSC)
Agnus (512K) 8371 318071-01 A500 (PAL), A2000 (PAL)
Agnus (1 MB) 8372 318069-02 A500 (PAL), A2000 (PAL) Regular Type
Agnus (1 MB) 8372A 318069-029 A500 (PAL), A2000 (PAL) (changed after some damage)
Agnus (2 MB) 8372AB 318069-03 A3000 (PAL), A3000T (PAL) (came after 8375B)
Agnus (2 MB) 8372B
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 R0 318069-18 A500+ (PAL), A600 (PAL)
Agnus (1 MB) 8375VBB / 8375 R1 318069-16 A500 (PAL), A2000 (PAL)
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 R2 318069-10 A500+ (PAL), A600 (PAL)
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 318069-11
Agnus (1 MB) 8375 318069-17 A500 (NTSC), A2000 (NTSC)
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 318069-19 A3000 (NTSC), A3000T (NTSC)
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 390544-01 A500+ (PAL), A600 (PAL)
Agnus (2 MB) 8375 390544-02 A500+ (NTSC), A600 (NTSC)
I have some problems with this table:
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> Agnus (2 MB) 8372AB 318069-03 A3000 (PAL), A3000T (PAL)(came after 8375B)[/i]
1) There is NO 8375B in the table (and there should there be!)
2) Look at the date codes on the three chips with the same number (318069-03)
8372AB 318069-03 = 4589, 5089, 5289 = 1989
8372B 318069-03 = 3591, 3791 = 1991
8375B 318069-03 = 5292 = 1992
8372AB
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a3000rev70.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/megachip2000_1_big.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a3000rev61mb_1_big.jpg
8372B
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a3000rev9_big.jpg
8375B
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/achipabig.jpg
In my mind that means that 8372AB came first, then 8372B and then 8375B, correct?
An EAB webmaster has said that their 8372B 318069-03 (3791) came from an A3000D. Anyone else? This variant is missing a description.
What the crap is commodore doing having 3 chips with the same code, were they bonded out differently with the same silicon inside? Did they do different things?
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> Agnus (2 MB) 8375 318069-11[/i]
This has no description. I know myself that this is an NTSC variant used in the A500+ / A600. I have one myself in a DKB Megachip I stoopidly ordered from the US before I knew there were NTSC and PAL Agni
Here is some confirmation, an A600 with one 8375 318069-11 (4592) = 1992
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a600mbrev2b_1.jpg
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> Agnus (2 MB) 8375 R2 318069-10 A500+ (PAL), A600 (PAL)
There is no R2 silked on a 318060-10 Agnus, and hence having it in the table is meaningless.
8375 318069-10 = 0992, 4292, 4792, 4992 = 1992
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/achipa_1_big.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a500plusrev8amb.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/minimegichip_1_big.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a600mbrev13.jpg
It is the later version of the 8375, but I plan to get some date codes in the table to make that obvious.
Does anyone have this version with an R2 on it??
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AFAIK VBB is not part of the chip designation.[/i]
There are other chips with VBB on them. I am almost sure (but need confirmation) that it is something to do with the processing. Anyone confirm this?
I've only got one photo of this part 318069-16 and so I cannot deny 100% that it never had R1 on it... anyone?
As you can see with a datecode of 1493 = 1993 this is a later agnus than the one in the table marked R2!! This makes much more sense as it has a later revision number.
Anyone any idea why this is marked as a 1Mbyte Agnus??
http://eab.abime.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10266&d=1140039662
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> Agnus (2 MB) 8375 R0 318069-18 A500+ (PAL), A600 (PAL)[/i]
There is definately Agnus chips silked 8375R0, but the only picture I've been able to find is of the 390544-01
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/3statechip2mb_1_big.jpg
As both these chips are designated PAL I think there has been a mixup, but more information is required to be 100% sure.
A date code of 0392 = 1992 is not consistant. There are earlier versions of the 390544-01 8375 WITHOUT the R0 dated 3591, 4291, 4391, 5291 = 1991. Need some more pictures of R0's to be sure!
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/megichip_1_big.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a500_68010_big.jpg
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a600mbrev1_big.jpg
Hmm, I would assume that they introduced the R0 silk on later chips because they ran two lines? There are some 8375 318069-10 dated 0992 which is only 6 weeks different.
Can ANYONE provide a shot of a 318069-18? To be doubly sure?
############################################################
Does anyone know if there were A3000 specific Agnus's? This table shows that certain ones were ONLY in A3000's. I think we've dispelled that myth as some are on MegaChip type adapters, but does anyone know for sure?
############################################################
If everyone who knows about Amiga's can come together now with hard information, we can clear up this grey spot for good.
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alexh wrote:
Agnus's (Agni?)
Agnuses.
--
moto
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Anyone got any serious info to input. I know that it doesnt really affect most Amiga users, their agnus is what they got and they really dont care, but to strange screwed up individuals like myself, trying to add 2Mbyte chip RAM to older Amiga's and CDTV's, information like this is priceless. Finding out that it's all wrong is maddening!
Someone once wrote: "Before re-using someone elses wheel, always check that it is round."
On the internet, No-one seems to care for this saying and certain areas of Amiga hardware documentation are WRONG and have been copied and used as if it were correct all over the net :(
Finding the REAL information is very difficult :madashell:
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This page has some good serious info.. maybe it will help you.. in france douh.
http://obligement.free.fr/articles/chipsetamiga.php
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http://obligement.free.fr/articles/chipsetamiga.php
This is a subset of the same info as contained within The big book of Amiga hardware but in a different format. It contains information that I've already set out to prove is wrong or partially wrong.
8375VBB[/i] - VBB is not a version code. It's some process code.
8375R0 318069-18[/i] - All the 8375R0 photo's I can find are marked 390544-01.
I dont really need links to other websites as they all seem to have copied one another. (unless you are sure they contain really good / different info)
I need some more empirical information, either first hand numbers off your AGNUS, information off one of the engineers who worked on these chips, links to photographs of agnuses not on the http://www.Amiga-Hardware.com website or http://amiga.resource.cx
Everything appreciated. Lets get our holy grail of Amiga hardware (Big book of Amiga hardware) upto date and correct.
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A3000/25 PAL, early '92
Agnus 318069-03 8372B, original part, PAL/NTSC switchable
Denise 390433-02 8373R4PD, orignal part
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Ian chapman, owner of "The big book of Amiga Hardware" website has endorsed my work to bring this information accurately up-to-date. Get reading and submitting the codes off the top of your Agnuses to this thread.
There is an Agnus in every OCS/ECS amiga.
I need the full text printed on top of the chip so I can work out dates of manufacture. Also say which computer it came from (A1000, A500, A500+, A600, A1500, A2000, B2000, A3000, CDTV)
If you also want to check your Denise at the same time ;)
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Here's another a3000 agnus, from a rev8 motherboard.
318069-03
8372B
3791 23
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A3000 PAL, rev 9 motherboard:
318069-03
8372B
3791-23
A500 PAL, rev 6a motherboard:
318069-02
8372A
2089-23
other systems info to be added later
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A3000 rev 9:
318069-03
8372B
3591 23
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Great work... keep em comming. The date codes are really usefull in working out a timeline for these beasts.
We really need more info on the -16 Agnuses and above.
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alexh wrote:
8375VBB[/i] - VBB is not a version code. It's some process code.
Yup, the Alice in my A1200 has a VBB marking too.
Isn't VBB sometimes used as a pin name for a bias/reference voltage?( I don't think that's the case here though as there's no specific pin marker and the 'VBB' covers 5 or 6 pins)
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I think that VBB refers to the fact that these chips can take a reference voltage to determine the voltage difference between a digital high '1' and low '0' perhaps to enable them to connect to chips which have different I/O (ECL, TTL, CMOS). Beside the point, VBB isnt anything to do with the version of chip as you concur.
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> Agnus (512K) 8361 R3[/i]
This has been spotted as a DIP version of Agnus in an early A1000. Date code = 2685 = 1985!
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a1000mbrev6.jpg
What is strange is that it has no commodore product number, no dash code. It has no other markings to differentiate that it might have two versions and so I dont know if it is PAL or NTSC!
Keep posting the numbers off your Agnus chips people. I'm making a detailed list of parts numbers and date codes. If you can also tell me what model amiga it comes from that too is appreciated.
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maybe Vbb is for 5V and indicates its not 3.3v cmos chip, dunno :(
i will try to look at my 3000 machines.
all we need 100% correct&confirmed agnus list 8-)
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okay, my ntsc A3000 has: fat agnus
8372B
31069-03
4190 23
and P/N rev 9/03
I'll have to open up the other machines, the Beast has that 'funny' mobo so it might be a unique but the rest of them should be normal. I have to install a new floppy drive in the Sister of the Beast so I should have that open today or tomorrow.
BTW since I haven't gotten this thing to boot yet, how does one know if a machine that isn't booting and is newly acquired is in fact NTSC or PAL? Might be part of my problem, ya know?
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I dont think it matters what VBB stood for...
The list is being updated at the moment, photographs, date codes, pinouts all being collected and the results will be posted via Amiga-Hardware.com
I'm still missing several examples of chips though, 3875 -17, -18 are very illusive.
I also have no way of telling PAL from NTSC on the earliest version Agnus (the DIL ones) There is no product code on the top (they must have been printed underneath) and so no way to differentiate from chips in boards.
If you look at the Agnus on this A1000
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a1000mbrev6.jpg
It says:
MOS
8361R3
2685 S
There is no code indicating if it was PAL or NTSC.. no product number. Gonna need someone who's got one of these to help out.
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Hi,
If it's of any use, my A1000 has the following:
8367RD 1486S - Agnus
8364R4 06-86 - Paula
8362R6 5185S - Denise
This is a PAL machine from the UK.
Regards,
- Ali
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@alexh: PAL/NTSC machines use the very same Denise, all vertical blanking timing/data flow is managed by Agnus.
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8367RD 1486S - Agnus
Could that be 8367R0 rather than a D? :-D A photo would be VERY good.
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@Zac
This entire thread is about AGNUS. I know that AGNUS controls the timing. HOWEVER there are NTSC Agnuses, and there are PAL Agnuses (the 8372 version is both PAL AND NTSC).
Most of the time you can work out which variety (PAL or NTSC) you have for a particular revision of Agnus from the code written on the top.
However the very early A1000 Agnuses (8361) do not have this code on the top of the chips. Now perhaps they were both PAL and NTSC like the 8372 (but I do not think so), perhaps they were not marked in any way, OR I speculate that the code was underneath, but I do not really know.
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Sorry, must've misunderstood your post.
AFAIK the early DIP40 Agnuses had different ID codes, a 8361 was NTSC and a 8367(?) PAL - might be wrong. They were definitely not switchable; a friend of mine had a PAL-modded NTSC A1000 that wouldn't do NTSC any more.
I always thought all ECS Agnuses were switchable (my first one was) but obviously this is wrong.
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I just received 2 A500's I purchased off of ebay. They are REV 5 motherboards, NTSC, and have 8372A 318069-02 chips.
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
I never knew angus controlled 25 DMA channels!!
WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW. thats incredible considering the moderm PC only has like 10.
amiga rox.
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alexh wrote:
8367RD 1486S - Agnus
Could that be 8367R0 rather than a D? :-D A photo would be VERY good.
Err.. oops! Yes, it's a zero. I've found a photo now, will email it to you.
- Ali
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My contribute:
Amiga500 Green Power Led K1.3 Purchased:1989 PAL Italy
(Made in Hong Kong)
MOTHERBOARD: REV. 6a
FAT AGNUS: 8372A
318069-02
2491 23
DENISE: 8362R8
4191 28
Saturday I'll write data for Amiga500 Red Power Led K1.3 1988
(Made in Germany)
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AFAIK the early DIP40 Agnuses had different ID codes, a 8361 was NTSC and a 8367(?) PAL - might be wrong.
[/b]
Ahhh, you are probably correct. That still doesnt explain where commodore part numbers listed on the Amiga-Hardware Anus page for 8367 and 8361 Agnuses come from?
> Agnus (512K) 8361 252125-01 A1000 (NTSC), A2000A (NTSC)
> Agnus (512K) 8367 252362-01 A1000 (PAL), A2000A (PAL)
All of the photo's of I have seen just have "MOS 8367 XXYY S" where XXYY is the manufacture date code. I see no 252125-01 or 252362-01 on any! Perhaps they are printed on the underside of the chips?
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There's a pic of my chipset (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=370=6) here. Early NTSC A1000.
Numbers are not 100% clear
Paula 8364R4 - 0886
Agnus 8361R5 - 0186
Daphne 8362R5 - 0686?
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Hmm, I remember dimly that there was something on the underside...
PS: from A500 PAL OCS (my first Amiga):
8371
2387 21
underside:
Philippines
IM242209
HC-30
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Daphne 8362R5 - 0686?
Denise. Great work, another shot of an Agnus I dont have. The database is improving. Another week or two and I'll release the results via Amiga-Hardware.
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alexh wrote:
Denise.
That's what I thought as well but according to thread here a few days back the very early A1000s chips were called Daphne. From a dig on google groups I can find a few references to Daphne but according to a post from Dale Luck they would have been dropped before March 1985.
BTW Paula was called Portia at one point.
I don't know what the distinction is though I did find out Extra_halfbright mode first appeared in 8362R6.
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Could you verify that EHB is not working on your 8362R5? I heard it's not supposed to have been in the early revs, but in reality it was always working in production chips.
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a500 ntsc rev 5 modified to 1meg chip by commodore
agnus 8372A / 318069-02 / 1091 23
denise 8362r8 / 4988 28
gary 5719 / 0189 42
paula 8364r7 / 2990 27
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Here you go.
Amiga 500 Rev 5. Pal.
Agnus - 8371, 1589 22.
Denise- 8362R8, 1389 28.
Amiga 1500 (B-2000) Rev 6. Pal.
Agnus - 8372A, 318069-02, 3490 23.
Denise - 8362R8, 3190 28.
Amiga 1000 Rev A. Pal.
Agnus - 8367R0, 1486S.
Denise - 8362R6, 0986S.
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Thanks to everyone who is supplying information. It is helping create a database of dates.
All I am lacking at the moment are some details on the -17, -18 variants of the 8375. Anyone got one?
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Any more for anymore?
If I cannot get any information about 8375 -17, 8375 -18 I'll just have to hand my report to Amiga-Hardware "as is".
Alex
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have you tried aworld? some of them don't come here and vice versa. who knows there may be more data to gather.
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By accident I discover a -17 Agnus...
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/download_photos/a2000mb_rev64_2.jpg