Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: El_Duduarino on April 16, 2003, 07:00:05 AM
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A JAVA VM
oh and a kitchen sink :-P
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ahh #### this was meant to go in another thread (os4 apps)
apologies
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oh cool a language filter
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prick
ass
arse
wanker
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El_Duduarino wrote:
oh cool a language filter
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prick
ass
arse
wanker
:lol:
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@El_Duduarino
Hehe, your pic looks like a Monty Pyton animation.
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Is a Java VM really needed on OS4?
Granted, they should probably develop (or someone develop for them) one that is optionally installable (or optionally downloadable?), but who here really needs a Java VM? (not a rhetorical question, I'm interested to know if anyone actually uses/needs it on a semi-regular basis)
I think having one available to install should you need it adds a bit more attraction to the platform, the fact that it supports something like that.
The only time I can remember using Java for anything was for the ADSL speed test at adslguide.org.uk (http://www.adslguide.co.uk/). I think I can safely say that was the only occasion in the last 3 years :-)
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Java is not *needed*. A good class library, good documentation
and a good C/C++ compiler is *needed*. Fortunately they
are all present for AOS4.
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A JavaVM is desperately needed. And I'm not talking about J2ME stuff like in AmigaDE/AmigaAnywhere/... .
With an uptodate JavaVM (J2SE 1.4.n) we would instantly get lots of applications from the Java domain for 'free'.
There are Office suites, all kind of IDEs, games, graphics and sounds utils ... you name it.
It would be a big mistake (tm) not to have a full Java implementation on the Amiga.
But, this is going to be a huge project. Not a one man show.
Regards,
Santa
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I use JAVA on an almost daily basis, there is a lot of apps that are able to bridge the Gab between diffrent systems. And the best part is - Most is Free or shareware.
example: check out the Excelent Titan clone Colossus. :-D
But its not all sunshine. JAVA uses a LOT of system power; RAM, CPU-time and then applets are not small.
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@ Santa
why is a Java VM "deperately needed"?
IMO, we'd be in a very desperate situation (hopeless, actually) if we had to rely on new applications to come from the Java domain...
And it would be nice to actually see a Java app that doesn't suck performancewise (well, more GUI responsiveness rather than 'performance', but they're kind of the same bag).
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There are many people who will speak for or against Java, for many various reasons.
But, objectivly speaking, I'll agree with Santa. There are lots and lots applications written in Java.
My self, if Java will be available in OS4, I can easily replace my linux box at work.
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@ MrZammler
Would you want to replace your linux-natively-written apps at work with apps under Java emulation though?
I'm not on this thread to speak for or against Java, I'd just like to hear people say why /they/ want Java with AmigaOS4 (be it in the various availability options I previously suggested). To me, to do otherwise is a bit like say "I really need a Spectrum emulator on AmigaOS4!" "Why? Oh, erm, I just want one!"
Even if people just want to say "I use Java for x purpose from time to time", that would be interesting/useful to hear.
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Java is getting very cool, and fairly powerful. As well as automaticaly gaining lots of free apps, you would also attract Java developers, -and these days there's a hell of a lot of them ( what with most modern mobiles and PDA's having it built in) giving us more kudos+ developers/purchasers, and perhaps seeing the A1 deployed as a business solution for Java developers. It's also a fairly nice language to start learning on, with the pleasure of knowing you can take the app/game you have written to a work/college/interview and it will work.
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Subjectively I agree with the persons saying we should have Java, especially since I am fiddling around with it atm ;)
Sincerely,
Kenneth Straarup.
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Would you want to replace your linux-natively-written apps at work with apps under Java emulation though?
There are only a couple of good desktop applications, although more are coming, since JDK1.4 speeds up GUI a lot more and also has full-screen, hardware accelleration etc. So more games will start appearing as well.
But that's not where java is strongest. Think about Jakarte-tomcat, Ant and a lot of other server/developer-applications.
I am a professional java-developer and I would love to work on Amiga One.. I can't, because java is not available. I'm forced to use Windows and Linux instead.
I use java and java-written tools on a daily basis... One of the best client-applications with Swing-interface is the editor/IDE I use ... IntelliJ's IDEA. It is a resource hog, but it is also fast, responsive and is a very good overal IDE.
Oh.. and it could bring JaZilla (java version of Mozilla, currently in development) to Amiga as well.
regards,
Onno
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who here really needs a Java VM? (not a rhetorical question, I'm interested to know if anyone actually uses/needs it on a semi-regular basis)
an honest question. I do. My dayly livings are earned by programming Java. Some might say that all they need is C/C++, well... Maybe thats because thats all they know?!
Java is immencely powerfull for midsize to very large applications. C is also good but if you just need a small program then you should use Ruby and if you need a very large program you should use Java. C's only real benefit is its runtime speed. It is most certainly not fast for coding or debugging.
And for those small things like render loops or the like that needs very fast code, you can embed assembler or C or whatever you like in Java aswell.
So if Amiga ever dreams about entering the enterprices sectors and become more than a geek platform (sorry fellas :-D ) then we need Java, and that sooner than later. Allans ideas about serverfarms of Amigas aren't realy going to happen without Java.
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mikeymike wrote:
who here really needs Java VM?
me waves frantically!
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And it would be nice to actually see a Java app that doesn't suck performancewise (well, more GUI responsiveness rather than 'performance', but they're kind of the same bag).
He he. Half of the performance hit is from translating the bytecode. This part is very much improved if you use Java 1.4.x and even more so if you use the -server flag. The client was made for applets and small apps that needed fast loads, so that was what they got. If you turn on -server you get all sorts of runtime optimizations like method inlining and a vastly improved garbage collector.
The server version can give you everything from slower speeds till a 100% boost depending on the code.
The other half is because people get class/thread happy and they don't use "final" (alows the runtime optimizations) stuff. They blow their code out the window that way. I do a lot of MySQL stuff and you don't get C code that beats Java in performance in that area.
Remember that the SUN version of Java for SPARC is much faster than the x86 version. Thats simply because it is possible to tweak your runtime to every single hardware feature your platform can support.
Don't judge Java on some annoying 1.1 applet you saw on Geocities.
Oh, and it would be mighty kewl to see "Powered by/Hosted on Amiga" on websites. That only takes the Apache Tomcat webserver and a Java runtime.
Plus, you get to fart in microsofts direction :-D :-D
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No Java is not desperately needed, its a nice to have. What
is needed is the tools that are required in the first place
* to compile and build JVM sources, and also to use with JNI
* to develop fast native applications, tools etc
That sayes C/C++. In order to have Java you must first have
something that compiles the VM sources, that is C & C++.
There is no point in getting to a Java is good/bad debate over it - look at the prereq tree for bringing it to the platform please.
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erhm... don't we already have a c/c++ compiler ?
if not how do they get the stuff done?
Javac is naturaly part of the JDK. but its 400KB of code compared to 100MB. Javah (jni) is even smaller ...
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We do have a C/C++ compiler, but I would say the environment is far from polished and Java is not exactly something that should be released with AOS4 ahead of a polished C/C++ IDE.
Javac is often written in a combo of Java and JNI ( to invoke it! ). This allows you to compile java source code to bytecode.
Javah allows you to generate stub code from java classes for JNI. I can't remember what it is written in.
The Sun JVM is seperate from both of those things and the source tree is huge and is written in a combination of C and C++.
Java ( .exe ) which actually invokes the JVM is written in C last I saw it and basically does a JNI call to init the VM and pass it your classpath, arguments then it initialises the class you specifies, locates the main method and calls it.
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Kaffe is coming. Although it's not certified by Sun, it more or less obeys the Java description. It's open source, anyone can download the source and compile it (bring your lunch).
I've got it running on the Amiga 68k platform now, using the interpreter. I'm currently trying to find out why the JIT translator crashes - I'm going to slap myself when I finally find it.
All the changes I have made to the Amiga platform configuration have been put back into the source tree. I've also made a few changes to the m68k Linux platform (I've made a Linux partition on the Amiga and run Linux on it just to compare the Linux and Amiga versions of kaffe).
Once I get hold of an AmigaOne I'll start the PPC Linux version. By the time I get that working, AOS4 should be out and I can start again with the PPC Amiga version. I'll be busy here for a few years.
tony
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#### nice one. :-D
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Would you want to replace your linux-natively-written apps at work with apps under Java emulation though?
My mainly used apps, *are* Java. Eclipse, Aqua Data Studio, jEdit, are some of those.
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@ MrZammler
There's a first :-)
Ok, so far we've got one person who actually uses/needs Java on a semi-regular basis. The rest of you think it's cool and/or would like to learn it.
Just putting things in perspective :-)
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@mikeymike
*lol* I use tomcat and eclipse everyday. Besides I program for a proprietary web engine (something like php/jsp) in Java. And I'm preparing releases for the demo scene in Java aswell.
does that count as using java ? :-P
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There's a first
Ok, so far we've got one person who actually uses/needs Java on a semi-regular basis. The rest of you think it's cool and/or would like to learn it.
Hee.. you forgot me :-D .. I posted that I use Java on a daily basis as well.. I NEED java, that's how I make a living. And now I'm forced to use Windows or Linux (or Mac).
I want to work on Amiga One with OS4 :)
regards,
Onno
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@ Ohno
Yep, I did forget you and noticed you after my last post, but as you're only a mere Hobbyist you don't matter :-D
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Ahem.
Not only have I been involved in porting Java I have been using
Java in the enterprise since around 98 as a professional.
I just don't happen to think it is essential.
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@DaveP
and we don't think you are essential :-D :-D :-D
sorry. ;-)
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On a serious note, if we don't make a port or get some kaffe running for AOS 4, how are the Amiga going to enter the Enterprise sector where buying 200 machines is just a signature away?
Perhaps you all can enlighten me on this? I doubt maya/3dmax will be very willing to port their stuff and SAP/R4 allready runs very nicely with Java, not to mention that ensurance companies seem to like it alot too.
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Im not. Im a nice to have.
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It's no secret that the Amiga market dried out quite a bit compared to 1990. We still have a couple of good apps and games, but some areas are a pity.
We are in difficult times (I wouldn't say hopeless).
There is not much acceptance for our platform of choice. The platform can barely feed the remaining developers. This is no selfcontaining situation.
What we need is a bigger community buying apps and spreading the name further.
To get a bigger community it would help to have more apps and games so a bigger number of people can satisfy there computing needs with an Amiga.
Porting Java SE 1.4 over to Amiga would allow a huge stack of apps to run on Amiga.
I'd prefer native applications on Amiga anyday. But this will take more time and time is nothing we have plenty of.
Java applications don't suck performancewise in general. It's bad coding style, which has most impact on speed. I've been working on a number of commercial Java projects and with a proper design speed is not an issue.
Regards,
Santa
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@Santa: Good post, at least someone has a clue.
I use the development tools almost daily, JBuilder(s) and XML generators. Additionally, the codecs supplied by JVMF will add extra media capabilities to the new platform.
Certainly the networking API's are desireable.
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It touches my heart to see that someone realy think about what will help the Amiga now and later. :-D :-D
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@ Fozzy
I think you've got me wrong - I'm not saying literally "no-one uses Java", I'm not saying it's utterly useless either. All I am saying is, people keep saying how absolutely necessary it is that Java gets ported to OS4 asap, without really taking into account that normally, everyday usage, not many people actually use Java. If whoever is a person that uses Java day in, day out, then they have a good reason to be wanting Java to be ported as soon as possible, but I don't get the random flagwaving in Java's favour, which is why I asked who actually uses it on a semi-regular basis to try and get my point across.
I think AOS4 should get Java sooner rather than later, just like the porting of quite a few popular applications such as Mozilla and OpenOffice need to happen to boost the credibility of the platform, as well as providing the stepping-stone for many users to move to AOS4 and know they can use a familiar product on the unfamiliar platform, so the risk seems less.