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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:17:46 PM

Title: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:17:46 PM
Only one word can sum up how I feel at the moment, and I think it will be censored. But I'll try anyway.

BOLLOCKS.

In the process of trying to get my 4-way IDE interface working, Elbox have suggested that the problem was caused by the RDB of my hard drive. So I plugged in another hard drive, installed and partitioned it, and copied all my data over.

I then rebooted to the backed up data, ran HDToolBox and reinstalled the RDB on my main drive. I then recreated the partitions and rebooted, planning to boot up to the backup drive again, and copy the data back over.

I rebooted, and the machine hung. Wouldn't boot. Powered off and back on again, floppy started clicking, hard drive light flashed, then the power light started flashing on and off, and the machine hung.

I then decided my first priority was to make sure my data was ok on the backup drive. So I reconnected my CD-ROM and booted to an OS3.9 Emergency Disk. No partitions showing on Workbench. If I run Setpatch from the CLI so I can see it's output, I see an error something like "Failed to activate BD1:" (the second partition on the backup drive).

Is my data gone forever?  :-?

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigaoneproductions on January 30, 2006, 06:23:50 PM
If you can get the RDB back to the way it used to be,  you should be able to then read the data,  failing that I would try QuaterbackTools, or in fact any data recovery tool that is able to read from a quickformatted drive (which is basically what you have as far as data recovery is concerned)

All is not lost,  it depends on how much work you are willing to do
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:25:20 PM
So you're saying that if I put the RDB back how it was on the original drive, it would be as if I had never formatted it? How do I do that?

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: doctorq on January 30, 2006, 06:26:56 PM
Download RDBRecov from Aminet, and follow the docs. Most likely it will bring your data back.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:29:07 PM
I did reinstall it and created FFS partitions (I didn't have SmartFileSystem handy and just wanted to get it working). I also quick formatted the FFS partitions. Does this destroy any data? Can it still find SFS partitions if FFS ones have been created?

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: doctorq on January 30, 2006, 06:31:03 PM
Nope, your data is gone for good I'm afraid.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:33:35 PM
Why :cry:

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: doctorq on January 30, 2006, 06:37:38 PM
Because the RDB is overwritten with the new information you installed. Until you formatted the new partitions your data was still there, but as you formatted, everything got screwed up.

It's a pain, went through the same myself, but I managed to solve the problem; took me over a week to get everything up and running. I'm guessing you have no chance, sorry.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 06:45:39 PM
I have a backup of the system partition on a Zip disk, so at least I don't have to set up all my drivers. And I have just found an ABackup image of my other partition dated 31 December 05. The only thing that has changed is I've added some games. So it's not a disaster after all :-)  Just extremely inconvenient.

Thanks for the replies.

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Thomas on January 30, 2006, 07:14:26 PM
Well, formatting is deadly. Quick format is not as deadly but still critical. I am not sure but I think the RDBRecov manual several times states "DO NOT FORMAT ANYTHING !!!". You should have read it before you started any action.

However, as I see it, you still have the backup on the second HDD. You probably just forgot to install SFS on it. So get the latest SFS archive from wherever it is, unpack it, copy SmartFileSystem to your emergency disk, swap HDDs so that the new drive is in there, boot from the emergency disk, run HDToolbox, select the HDD, go to "Partition drive", go to "Add/Update" and add SmartFileSystem. Save changes, remove the emergency disk and reboot. Should work now.

Regarding your first HDD, it is silly to think that FFS could find anything on a former SFS partition and vice versa. If it could it would do so at once, without formatting. By formatting you tell it there was no useful data on it before, so it throws away everything.

With a little bit luck you could get back your data on the first HDD by just installing SFS on it the same way as with the backup HDD. But I doubt it. By formatting at least the boot block has been destroyed. Perhaps SFSsalv can stil find something.

And next time you start your experiments, you should read the docs of any software you are about to use, *before* you use it. Especially the installation instructions for SFS.

As for your FastATA problems, probably you set up a too high speed in FastATAPrefs. Was the same for me. If I choose PIO5, it won't boot but with PIO4 everything is ok.

Bye,
Thomas
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 07:45:48 PM
what softwear you have use at first place to save the rdb of the disk? you know, you don't need any other softwear except HDToolbox, i believe is the safest option. and of course it was a big mistake to install the ffs in a previus sfs disk and to want to save it... from now on, after you setup the disk save the rdb and a mountlist of the partitions from hdtoolbox and with the latest sfs save them in every possible place just in case... (i have both the setups of 1200 and 3000 in every partition of both the amigas plus cdroms and emergency disks...) http://strohmayer.org/sfs/files/SFS_1.247.lha
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: minator on January 30, 2006, 07:48:01 PM
Can RDBRecov work from UAE in Windows?
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 08:00:25 PM
in theory if you use a hardfile or an amiga formated disk with uae it will work
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Thomas on January 30, 2006, 08:02:12 PM
Quote

minator wrote:
Can RDBRecov work from UAE in Windows?


It does not find FAT32 or NTFS partitions on a PC drive if you mean that. But it can find Amiga partitions on an Amiga HDD connected to the PC. And it can find Amiga partitions on a partitioned HDF.

Bye,
Thomas
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: ncafferkey on January 30, 2006, 08:08:06 PM
Unless I've missed something, shouldn't you be able to boot from your back-up drive again if you disconnect the main drive (and maybe the CDROM too)? You've already booted from it, and you didn't change the partitions on it since then.

Also, AFAIK a quick format only writes to a small number of blocks, so most of the data should still be intact on the main drive. The question though is whether the available recovery tools are able to find old partitions in these circumstances.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 08:27:56 PM
Quote

ncafferkey wrote:
The question though is whether the available recovery tools are able to find old partitions in these circumstances.



in my amigas all the known hd tools don't work with sfs and the disk of motorolin if i remember well was formated with sfs

-edit-
@motorolin: as i see you didn't save the rdb before you start all this mesh... now, if you remember excactly the number of blocks that was on the partitions in first place and you install the disk with sfs from scratch and setup the partitions with the same blocks the partitions would be back ok... or... they sould be back ok if you didn't involve the ffs and quick format the drive...
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 09:10:51 PM
I don't have enough information to recover the original drive. However, I see no good reason why the backup drive isn't working, as the partitions are still there and haven't been formatted since the data was copied on to them.

In HDToolBox, I can see that SFS is installed in the RDB with the identifier "0x444F5303". The partition is set to use the filesystem "SFS/00" with identifier "0x5346300". Could this be the problem, that the partition's filesystem identifier is incorrect? If I change the identifier to match the one for SFS and then save the changes, will it destroy any information in the partition, or can I safely change the identifier to get it working?

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 09:21:41 PM
the identifier of sfs in my disk is 0x53465300 sfs\00
the 0x444F5303 is the identifier of the ffs
it's a bit risky but i thing that you must remove the ffs completly from the disk. the identifier that you write for sfs is wrong too. read it carefuly.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 09:23:47 PM
FFS has already been removed from the disk. Can I change the identifier on the partitions to match the one SFS is set to in the RDB?

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 09:32:36 PM
yes you can, the easyest way is to remove the sfs and reinstall it. after the sellect of sfs from disk the identifier is ''editable'' (if i can use this word). you must type this: 0x53465300. after this the identifier is selected automaticaly when you set the file system of the partition
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 09:40:06 PM
Great! I can't do this yet as I don't have SFS on a floppy disk, and I have no floppy drives except the one in my Amiga! I'll copy SFS to a DOS floppy tomorrow at workand copy it to my OS3.9 Emergency Disk.

Thanks a lot - here's hoping it works :-)

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 09:44:14 PM
format the floppy in amiga because the winxp don't do it for 720kb disks:) and good luck
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 30, 2006, 09:53:33 PM
Yep will do, I'll format PC0 and put sfs.lha on it. Then I open HDToolBox, remove the existing SFS from the disk, re-add it using L:SmartFileSystem, give it the same identifier as the partitions are using, and then it should find the filesystem and mount the partitions. I hope I got that right :roll:

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 09:58:04 PM
don't use the identifier that hdtoolbox will give you by it self. use this: 0x53465300 and it would be ok.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Hyperspeed on January 30, 2006, 10:22:10 PM
I don't think I could live without DiskSalv... that's why I still use FFS over SFS.

I don't know why Angela Schmidt hasn't made RDB-Salv freeware now, it's not nice to keep this program restricted - it could save someone's life. She must have made enough money with MakeCD anyway!

I'm crossing my fingers for your idea motorollin!
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 10:27:08 PM
the HDToolbox is good enough for this job and it's ''free'' as it's part of the workbench tools, as for disksalv i never try a less usefull stuff (for me) in amiga as this.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: billt on January 30, 2006, 10:40:03 PM
I once had a pretty bad situation like this. I had a 9gig drive, and didn't know that using full format above the 4gig line wsa a bad idea due to a bug. I did want to format an upper partition, but it looped around and wiped out the lower part of the drive including the RDB information.

I had originally laid out the particions with OS3.1, and my OS3.9 hdtoolbox on a bootable ZIP disk of course used different block size by default. Some fiddling around with a sector editor and a data recovery tool (don't remember the name, it wasn't disksalv but a newer one in an early-ish release) to figure out how file pointers were working to get clues of where the partition boundaries used to be. Couldn't quite get things working right with OS3.9 HDtoolbox, someone mentioned to try the OS3.1 version to get the smaller block size, which seemed to finally work out, and I was able to recover most stuff residing above where format cleaned the disk.

I don't remember how I did some of that anymore, but hopefully I won't have to ever again.
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Hyperspeed on January 30, 2006, 11:04:09 PM
When it comes to backing up your hard disk I often hear of Emergency Boot diskettes, CD-ROMs, ZiP/Jazz disks but there's one thing I never hear mentioned...

Next time you're in the Early Startup Menu have a look for CC0: - a nice 2MB PCMCIA SRAM card would boot silently, instantly and would hold far more data for recovery purposes than an 880k floppy. You could put DiskSalv, SFS-salv, DOpus, AmiCDFS, RDB-Salv and whatever else on it.

Remember that CC0: has boot priority 3 - higher than floppy and hard disk and of course, unlike ZiP or CD-ROM the driver is permanently in ROM (which is thankfully write protected!).

:-)
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 30, 2006, 11:09:42 PM
that's a good point, except that at least in my amigas floppy has boot priority 5
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Hyperspeed on January 30, 2006, 11:40:18 PM
Oh yeah, you're right.

Well if DF0: has boot priority 5, and it's advised that DH0: be boot priority 4 - then CC0: on priority 3 will allow you to leave the SRAM card permanently in the PCMCIA slot without fear of booting off it.

Should your hard disk die it will be there like Superman to haul your ass out of trouble.

:-)
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 31, 2006, 04:34:57 PM
ta daaah or like super goofy lol:) but it's a good idea:)
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: motorollin on January 31, 2006, 05:25:25 PM
Well I brought my company laptop home complete with floppy drive and did the following:

1. Booted a Workbench floppy.
2. Mounted and formatted PC0:
3. Copied SmartFileSystem from the PC to my CrossDOS floppy
4. Copied SmartFileSystem from my CrossDOS floppy to RAM:
5. Copied SmartFileSystem from RAM: to my OS3.9 Boot Floppy
6. Booted from the OS3.9 Emergency Disk
7. Ran HDToolBox
8. Removed SFS from the backup drive
9. Re-added SFS to the backup drive, making sure the identifier matched the one the partitions were looking for.
10. Saved changes
11. Rebooted

Guess what... the backup drive now boots and my data is all there  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Thanks all for the suggestions!

--
moto
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 31, 2006, 05:31:08 PM
yeh we save the world once again  :-)  :-)  :-)
good work moto :-)

-edit-
now, load HDToolbox and save the rdb and a mountlist of the hard drive, just in case... :-)
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigaoneproductions on January 31, 2006, 07:10:12 PM
Quote
Guess what... the backup drive now boots and my data is all there


Excellent news,  Is your hard drive called Kenny by any chance  "Oh No they killed Kenny",  Of course Kenny comes back to life in the next episode.
 :lol:
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 31, 2006, 07:21:53 PM
yes it's sounds like a shoap opera :-)
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Boot_WB on January 31, 2006, 07:50:17 PM
Congratulations!!  Having had a few catastrophes myself with the OS my heart went out to you having to re-install from scratch (yet again).
Since last time, I have a hand-written (on jen-yew-ine paper) list of all the applications, patches etc in the order I installed them.  
Have also just done the same with my new Win2k machine, however that takes about a week to get right, rather than the 2 days with OS3.9. :-)  
Have been thinking about ripping the innards out of the various installation scripts to create a single, all-installing installation script, just in case my backups go toes-up aswell.
I've recently found a copy of Abackup on an amigaformat disk (#42 I believe) which works very well - allows me to back up my workbench and work partitions to .lhas in very little time - it seems far quicker to create backups to the ram disk, then copy the .lha from ram to hdd - I get transfer rates of about 2mb/s through a1200 IDE port: as I don't own a power flyer (and don't have scsi (yet)) it's the fastest I've ever had!
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on January 31, 2006, 10:31:03 PM
and what do you do all this lha files after that? how can you be sure that the hard disk won't crash completly and you will loose all the data on all partitions? in my 1200 a have a cdrw connected as slave in the plain ide port and it works fine. it saved me a lot of times from really big adventures:)))
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: Hyperspeed on February 01, 2006, 02:26:09 AM
Phew! Close one...

One of the nastiest things that's ever happened here was when ReOrg3.1 (a disk defragmenter) had trouble right in the middle of a partition, crashed and of course took the block/directory details with it.

I think if you're going to defragment a drive like that you have to remove every single other application, tool or patch and make sure your power-supply is reliable. One mistake with defragging and it can do serious harm that even DiskSalv can't save you from.

Anyone got a UPS here?
Title: Re: My data is all gone
Post by: amigagr on February 02, 2006, 09:09:45 PM
i saw this nightmare once, back in the floppy days, because of  amiback tools, in the middle of an optimize it crashed, and i restore all my progs back, file by file from a mountain of floppys, originals and backups. it take a week and tones of coffee too :-)