Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: CHR_ZD on January 10, 2006, 12:31:40 PM
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From the book "Freax"
— What's your opinion about the new Amiga successors, the Amiga One and the Pegasos? Do you think they have future?
They're both just PCs with PPCs. Nothing more, nothing less. If a PowerPC is something you find interesting, look at these. If not, they're barely a blip on the radar. What really bothers me is the business case. I don't think anyone working on these things has actually run a company before, certainly not a real company.
First question: who are your customers? If you can't answer that, you are not in business. Both seem to be saying "old Amiga users", but I don't believe that alone is a market large enough to sustain one new computer platform, much less two. Second question: how dedicated are your customers? AmigaOS/MorphOS require custom hardware. So it's $800-$1600 invested before you boot to Workbench. Once there, you don't have applications yet. So it's just a toy.
My claim is and has been that AmigaOS, or a clone, should have been ported to a PC. I just bought a 2.6GHz P4/Celeron machine, including 80GB hard drive, DVD/CD-R/CD-RW drive, 256MB of DDR-DRAM, etc. for $199. Ok, it was a good sale, this is one of my son's Christmas presents. This runs many times faster than any "neo-Amiga" class PPC machine. And many other people have PCs, they don't have PPC machines. What this means: there's a barrier to entry for new Amigas. In the old days, we had advances in hardware and software. But when the hardware is substandard and expensive, why bother? AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.
Ok, so my opposition will say something like "but, if it runs Windows, they'll just run Windows, not AmigaOS". Dudes... Newsflash! They're already doing that. No one will accidently run AmigaOS rather than Windows. Everyone running AmigaOS, or MorphOS, made that decision. They're early supporters, they see something better. So they absolutely will run things on AmigaOS, if they can run them on AmigaOS. This is exactly how Linux has been growing.
Flip the coin around... if there's a job I need to do, that I can't do under AmigaOS or MorphOS today, that's a reason to not buy. I might also have reasons, such as interest to buy. Add them up, and there's my purchase decision. It's a threshold thing. If the path-independent means to getting AmigaOS on my desktop is $100 rather than $1000, more will sign up. Likely, many more, because the threshold of rejection is a log scale. You might find, for every 100 people willing to buy a New Amiga, there are 1000 or 10,000 willing to buy the software to run this environment on their PC. This is only made more obvious by the fact that none of the hardware is even as good as the cheap PC stuff. If it was better than PC, you'd have a big geek attractor there, even if they didn't know Amiga. Today, it's a big geek repellant, they understand all the details, and don't want to be made fool of.
And all of these issues are largely independent of the OS itself. In OS terms, "better" gets some curious people, if there's a free download. "Dramatically better" gets more, if there's a free download. "Dramatically better, with applications" is where the revolution might begin.
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A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.
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moto
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Prima facie you can't really argue with that.
AROS anyone?
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AROS anyone?
maybe when it's "Dramatically better, with applications"
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A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.
I doubt they would of even listened, the commodore way or the highway :crazy:
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He tells Commodore CEOs where not even listening to the engineers. Try "The Deathbed Vigil" movie on Commodore Bankruptcy.
motorollin wrote:
A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.
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moto
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Even after all of these years, Dave is still the purveyor of truth.
-AmigaEd
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Just don't post this on AW.net, or you'll be 'trolling'
/ducks
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I will post.
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don't forget about MorphZone, both camps has way too much fun even without x86, need to straighten them out, ok?
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u guys must be mental or something ..sorry but wtf are you guys on about?
we have 3 alternatives on X86 allready , have they sold so much copies of new games or software the last years to actually make that arguement valuable?...NO.
you guys (and haynie too) are missing a crucial thing here, morphos and os4 has been dooing everyting on their own more or less and with slaggin like this...we just feel very proud ...ugh.
look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has, look how stagnated the 68k arena is, ever crossed your mind why? ...well they moved to the new plattforms to build it up for the final release or whatever ,sure there is problems but its nothing daily to write an os and trying to keep up with the ever so fast growing times of the OS wars (by that i mean keeping up with all the dubious standards microsoft creates or whatever etc)
putting all PPC efforts in a catagory like has been done here today is disturbing and one thing is for sure , you can not run a company if you havent got it close to your heart.
The biggest problem that is on linux theese days is (and has been for many years) is that since its an second alternative OS to windows (for most USERS anyway) ...so what do that mean? ... well it means alot of things but one thing in particular, they expect everything on linux to be FREE and if they buy a game for windows they expect it to be free on linux because it got released 1 day later or 3 years later, this is why companies like Loki died though some survived but hardly because theyre running linux only companies and living of the actual sales.
i agree with things haynie says and thoose are the commercially viable stuff like if we go mainstream...we wont make much progress with any of our alternatives (morphos/amigaos) as it stand today because of the current MHZ /GB wars but hello... i belived it was time to show the world what a slow ass machine can do if the OS running on it was amazing , doing such on a x86..sure would probably be cool but who will support and make drivers for the millions of types of boards and so on? ..who will pay for that? ..u would be bankrupt before 4 dentists showed up with a big money bag because you wouldnt even have had something to show them in the scheme u set up in advance...
people are too obsessed by owning everything a store has ...what happened to..buy something ...let it be a washermachine or a dvd player and use it till it fails and not run and upgrade just because it has the wrong color or the new model has a new feature that you wouldnt use anyway.
anyway i find this thread insulting to our efforts with both OS4 and MorphOS , afterall they are the future OS's you guys will most likely use (since this is still an Amiga board...aint it?....) (aros and morphos works closely at some parts it seems and winuae is getting better every day but the future of OS4 and MorphOS last i checked was not X86....)
and btw to all thoose in here who belive in x86 and so on.... commodore (and amiga) died because of their x86 waste of money (and time) production runs just to try and make money...it didnt go very well ofcourse as we know ;)
sorry for going bananas here but u guys pressed a nerve and damned good too ....Stop that.
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yours is just a religion but people doesn't have faith in that.
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Well I agree somewhat with both sides of this argument. But I do not believe x86 is the way forward for Amiga as the hardware is too diverse. And in my personal experience, diversity of hardware with a common OS is a Bad Thing.
One reason why Amiga's (and to some extent Apple's) platforms are so stable is because the OS and the hardware are/were developed by the same people. It makes sense: if you know the hardware inside out, then you can tailor your OS to fit it exactly. As soon as the hardware is out of your control, you have to rely on 3rd party hardware manufacturers to conform to standards in order to keep your OS compatible and stable, and that is one reason why x86 operating systems like Windows and even Linux can be unstable.
I can see Dave's point, that in order to attack the market and really be successful Amiga need to appeal to existing Windows and Linux users, i.e. those who are using an x86 platform. This means porting AmigaOS or a clone to an x86 platform. But I fear that would compromise the speed and stability that Amiga Classic/AmigaOne/MorphOS users enjoy.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
As soon as the hardware is out of your control, you have to rely on 3rd party hardware manufacturers to conform to standards in order to keep your OS compatible and stable, and that is one reason why x86 operating systems like Windows and even Linux can be unstable.
moto
Dave opinion is Windows is not unstable anymore:
- Some say it's perhaps better that the Amiga died, because sooner or later it would've developed into some unstable and unreliable thing like the PC is. What do you think?
- No, I don't think so. For one, the PC is very, very reliable. The hardware all works together, very nicely. Maybe it's 98% or so, better by far than the HW developed over time for the Amiga.
On the software side, you have issues. Linux tends to be rock solid, and lately even does expansion fairly well. Windows has had problems, it still does expansion wrong, but even at that, it's not generally unreliable anymore. As in most software and hardware interfaces, there are issues of algorithm and implementation. Early Windows was simply brain dead in all things: nothing was well designed, and what was well designed was poorly implemented. In modern Windows (NT-kernel-based), they have fixed more than half of the bad ideas, and even more bugs. But there are still bad ideas. Those are the ones that don't necessarily get fixed, like the way Windows does autoconfig. They're totally wrong about how they do that, and yet, don't understand that they're wrong. So they won't fix it. But that's more of a boot-time than runtime issue. Windows may screw up your network configuration, but it'll happily run for months without crash with that incorrect configuration.
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motorollin wrote:
I can see Dave's point, that in order to attack the market and really be successful Amiga need to appeal to existing Windows and Linux users, i.e. those who are using an x86 platform. This means porting AmigaOS or a clone to an x86 platform. But I fear that would compromise the speed and stability that Amiga Classic/AmigaOne/MorphOS users enjoy.
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moto
But you've missed Dave's more important point... Why bother using cheap industry standard parts (ie PCI), as the A1 and Peg do... but not use a nice cheap CPU as well?
I agree that MacOS X has a huge advantage over Windows just because the engineers know exactly what hardware it runs on and can test it completly.
But AmigaOS going X86 doesn't mean you can't do that... if drivers are only written for specific hardware components... then you can force the users of the OS to stick with certain harware... unless they choose to write their own drivers.
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CHR_ZD wrote:
Dave opinion is Windows is not unstable anymore
I disagree.
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moto
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lempkee wrote:
and btw to all thoose in here who belive in x86 and so on.... commodore (and amiga) died because of their x86 waste of money (and time) production runs just to try and make money...it didnt go very well ofcourse as we know ;)
Close, but no cigar.....
C= died because they tried to run their x86 leg the same way as Amiga.
No support, shaddy quality, medicore peformance and the same HW for years (a slighter case of the same mistake was also what killed Escom). If C= had played their (x86)cards well they could have been on par with HP,Dell and others.
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Well I agree somewhat with both sides of this argument. But I do not believe x86 is the way forward for Amiga as the hardware is too diverse. And in my personal experience, diversity of hardware with a common OS is a Bad Thing.
Hardware such as what? Considering that most of the cards used together with either the Pegasos or the AmigaOne is old PCI cards which in time will become harder and harder to get hold of (and more expensive)... I can't see anything but the motherboard in itself being the hardware obstacle to overcome if either OS would be ported to x86 (and how often is the motherboard in itself an issue on the PC-side, really?). Besides the motherboards, the hardware is JUST as diverse no matter if you're running on a PPC motherboard or a x86 motherboard.
I really seldom comment on the AmigaOne / Pegasos discussion, but the hardware diversity problem you stated above, is something I really can't understand. Could you please clarify?
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Legerdemain wrote:
Well I agree somewhat with both sides of this argument. But I do not believe x86 is the way forward for Amiga as the hardware is too diverse. And in my personal experience, diversity of hardware with a common OS is a Bad Thing.
Hardware such as what?
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I really seldom comment on the AmigaOne / Pegasos discussion, but the hardware diversity problem you stated above, is something I really can't understand. Could you please clarify?
Motherboard chipsets, graphics cards, sound cards, PCI buses, just for a start. I have seen so many (x86) machines come back to me when I had to build them from cheap components requested by the customer, which had obscure chipsets I had never heard of. Windows had to use generic drivers, and my guess is that these drivers make guesses about the hardware in order to maintain compatibility. Needless to say the machines were unstable.
The machines that were built with well known boards with widely used chipsets were rock solid.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
The machines that were built with well known boards with widely used chipsets were rock solid.
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moto
Exactly, so only support specific boards and you will be fine...
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It's about the money, dummies! Put vanilla AmigaOS on x86, and it will cost $299.00 + Genuine AmigaOS. MS Windows = $299.00 + Genuine Windows. The reason MAC went to x86 is the built in security in the new Intel chip. MAC/OS will be $299.00 + Genuine MAC. There's no getting around the new breed of OS. Amiga is way too far behind on this simple philosophy - SECURITY). To be competitive, the industry says "you must sell at $299.00. But Amiga, plus an attractor (something special - but with all the industry standard stuff), could make money. Price point to buyer. AmigaOS could sell cheaper than MS or MAC; a lot cheaper on x86 if they wanted to. But they would also need to make money. They would, by providing an OS at a reasonable price with APPS and games. That's what made Amiga so great in the first place. Industry support. Especially in the game arena. They need to allow for 3rd party support at a good price point. Or, even free... like OpenOffice.
Now, what Dave is saying is x86 hardware is dirt cheap. No custom hardware. Does it do what you want? YUP! It's about the money!
Now, IMHO, "Genuine" anything (when I say Genuine I mean - "you are NOT going to use it with out paying") is going to kill off the average consumer if SOMEONE doesn't come up with a way to deliver the OS and the APPS at a reasonable price. That's what Linux is all about. It's about the money! Amiga, or anyone for that fact, has an opportunity to, RIGHT NOW, fill the market with what Linux is trying to do; take the market away from MS and MAC. Linux will NEVER do that. But someone could if they just would come up with a great OS at a great price, with APPS!
Someone could make a killing in the market just by stopping the price creep and give it to the masses with app support! A lot of software developers would come back too. 3rd party developers don't care about any particular OS. They want to sell their wares, period. MAC tried, but had the stupid idea that they had to make their OS "SPECIAL". That failed! They are now on the MONEY bandwagon. OS/X was a great leap for MAC. Then they jumped ship on IBM. They got a business plan!
Dave is saying - "do the same thing!" Seriously, AmigaOS needs to be ported to x86! FAST! Intel has already done the hard part for any OS developer - "built in security!"
Let Intel worry about Security! They want to sell chips! If the industry can't use Intel with the existing MS and MAC OS's, MS and MAC would bail too! But, Intel got their sh*t together and is now perfectly poised for the next 5 years! That's why MAC bailed on IBM! It's about the money!
Amiga has a great opportunity here... they just can't see it. Jump on x86. There's plenty of room in the market for another "commercially supported OS". It would take right off, I gaurantee it. Especially true "Amiga" flavored (not a MAC clone). Oh, and "MARKET" it! :-o That's what used to make all the old magazines great. I go right to sleep whenever I read PC magazine anymore.
OK, done..... :-P
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bloodline wrote:
motorollin wrote:
The machines that were built with well known boards with widely used chipsets were rock solid.
Exactly, so only support specific boards and you will be fine...
Isn't that exactly what they have done, with the A1/Peg? That is what I was getting at when I talked about Amiga/Apple being stable because they restrict the hardware their OS will run on.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
bloodline wrote:
motorollin wrote:
The machines that were built with well known boards with widely used chipsets were rock solid.
Exactly, so only support specific boards and you will be fine...
Isn't that exactly what they have done, with the A1/Peg? That is what I was getting at when I talked about Amiga/Apple being stable because they restrict the hardware their OS will run on.
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moto
Specific as in "nForce4", for example... ie cheap and reliable.
-Edit- Exactly what apple are doing. Now they are using totally off-the-shelf harware, they can cut costs and increase performance!
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Sad really can`t agree with him. My G-3/600MHZ Pegasos2 running Mplayer on MorphOS, plays Divx video, that my Athlon 1GHZ WinXP locks up and can`t handle. Cheaper is not always better. Apple makes the switch to jump on the money train. Eating their own words that the PPC is better. Sony doesn`t seem to want to switch. They seem to produce tons of PPC machines that sell less than $150. One word "CELL"
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Even a PIII at 500Mhz can handle Divx videos without problems. If your 1GHZ Athlon fails it means you need to reinstall the codecs.
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@CHR_ZD
Divx made with Vidomi is more the problem. My point being that a person doesn`t have to a big blouted OS and a ton of ram to have a good system. Windows 2020 will probally take up
9 GB to install.
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chd:
maybe he should just reinstall windows and maybe buy better hw because its old crap anyway?
nitro:
only 9GB ?? i think you meant 9TB. :-)
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Nitro wrote:
Sad really can`t agree with him. My G-3/600MHZ Pegasos2 running Mplayer on MorphOS, plays Divx video, that my Athlon 1GHZ WinXP locks up and can`t handle. Cheaper is not always better. Apple makes the switch to jump on the money train. Eating their own words that the PPC is better.
Steve Jobs wanted to move the Mac to x86 as soon as he was rehired by Apple... it was only IBM promises that kept him with the PPC... IBM failed and gave up with the desktop PPC.
Sony doesn`t seem to want to switch.
Sony don't make PPC desktops.
They seem to produce tons of PPC machines that sell less than $150. One word "CELL"
Sony haven't made a PPC machine yet, and the PS3 is in a horrible state at the moment... they had nothing to show at the CES!
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Off topic the big book of amiga hardware is back online hooray!!
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So what? 9 GB? Modern hard disks have hundreds of gigabytes for very low prices. Desktop systems with 200GB Hard Disks 512/1024MB of ram and fast 3d cards like Nvidia or ATI are priced under 500$
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Motherboard chipsets, graphics cards, sound cards, PCI buses, just for a start. I have seen so many (x86) machines come back to me when I had to build them from cheap components requested by the customer, which had obscure chipsets I had never heard of. Windows had to use generic drivers, and my guess is that these drivers make guesses about the hardware in order to maintain compatibility. Needless to say the machines were unstable.
But besides the chipsets directly on the motherboard, all the others, the graphic cards, the sound cards, network cards and the "everything related to PCI" they are the same no matter if you are running PPC or x86. I still don't really see your point? The motherboards will be cheaper, and as long as some fairly common ones are supported (in fact, considering basic motherboards, how much is there really to support?), the rest of the drivers will mainly concern PCI cards... which, again, will be the same no matter what motherboard you use?
If you are talking about AOS4 working on EVERY PC that can be found out there. Yes. Then there will be a problem. But why on earth stick to extremely expensive hardware (PPC), just because there's so many different x86 PC's to chose from? There no one saying that there is a need for every single hardware to be supported, because just like now some few PCI-cards can be supported. Just like now, people would consider what hardware they bought, so I can't really se the difference, besides it just being much cheaper.
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chd: ..ofcourse you wouldnt mind if the OS was 9 GB or TB ..sorta tells more about you than i would like ot know ;) , btw the article youre quoting is 3 years old!.
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I am not triggering anyone. What is it? You can't post arguments? So, what is the problem of the article being 3 years old? What happened in the last 3 years to Amiga? A rebirth? I don't see that. It could be 3 years old but it could have been written tomorrow.
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Legerdemain wrote:
Motherboard chipsets, graphics cards, sound cards, PCI buses, just for a start. I have seen so many (x86) machines come back to me when I had to build them from cheap components requested by the customer, which had obscure chipsets I had never heard of. Windows had to use generic drivers, and my guess is that these drivers make guesses about the hardware in order to maintain compatibility. Needless to say the machines were unstable.
But besides the chipsets directly on the motherboard, all the others, the graphic cards, the sound cards, network cards and the "everything related to PCI" they are the same no matter if you are running PPC or x86.
Ok, point taken. If you start adding expansions to the machine then you could start having problems. Speaking personally, I don't need anything more than my iBook provides. The on board video, sound and network capabilities suit my needs perfectly so I don't see why I would need to add any 3rd party addons. Consequently, my iBook is rock solid. I suppose other people would want to expand though.
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moto
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lempkee wrote:
chd: ..ofcourse you wouldnt mind if the OS was 9 GB or TB ..sorta tells more about you than i would like ot know ;)
Oh please. I see, you are the kind of guy who needs to move on horses because you don't see what improvement a car is.... Why would we need the wheel if we can just push and pull objects around?
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Ahhhhh! what a great thread! but lets keep it positive and encouraging. Lets send this to Amiga Inc.
I agree with Dave Haynie.....also with Lempkee and Motorollin.
Here is the Deal the way I see it.
The only hope right at this Moment for Amiga Inc (If it were somehow possible that is) is to recreate the Amiga and release it exactly in the same way as before. Just 10 times more modern, but same principles.
What that is is this:
A Real Amiga...............by Amiga Inc that wns their own Chip plant and owns their own OS. This AMiga has to absolutely be a Hyrbid between a Game console and Computer just as the A1000..but of course 10 times more powerful than the X-Box 360 at the very least. A nice business plan for hardware upgrades in advance. but that still allow it to be a custom machine thats not a Mac or PC..........but atthe same time contain Chip slots for a x86 CPU for 100% emulation (or actually becoming a real PC) witht he capability of running OS X at full speed and Windows Vista at full blown x86 Intel speeds....simply because this Amiga would also be a real PC) But yet is really a Custom Chipset Amiga. Removable gfx chip on the board with a very expandable CPU slot of the same CPU type so that old software continues to work for the next 15 years.
THis is what an Amiga was and what made it succesful................also we need to take back the TV Overscan correct resolution.and not conform to Microsoft STUPID "640 x 480 is video standard now but stretched reolution" crap.
Notice how now 320 x 240 and 640 x 480 is now video? its so wacko....Microsoft and PC incapabilities forced everyone to use this substandard format.
We need an Amiga with HDTV output as its main Native video..but in Double or triple that resolution, being able to be displayed on an HDTV in the same way SuperHiRes in Overscan can be seen on a TV thats normally for 720 x 480 output.
Amigas were always True convergence. Man I despise PC's! and all the greed for money it entails. Thats what all these Unecessary new formats are for.....to keep the customer spending unecessarily....there are otherways to do this legitimately with Creative new ideas that people will genuinly would want.
a good example is USB and USB 2.0..same connector...just upgraded.............this is good..............unlike for instance Memory Stick........and Memory stick Pro DUO wich one has to buy a new slot to get to work.....Sny could have made it possible to make it work by keeping the shape the same.
I may be wrong with the memory stick thing here but you get the idea.
AMiga might believe they are going somewhere with the Phone content thing....and they indeed might.........but thats the wrong direction for the name "Amiga" go ahead and continue that..........but change the name for that deprtment to Commodore.........or Agnus Content or something. Leave Amiga for the good stuff and for its possible coming Glory.
Commodore is being prostituded right now.........Amiga is doing similar. Lets not do this. its making Amiga fake and commodore fake...........people pick up on this.
Fake fake fake. this is a formula to shoot oneself in the foot.
Solution is as all I have said.....plus merge Amiga back into one company....owning its OS and a Hardware plant.
At the very least focus on one thing! even just a plain old Killer Console....then take the moeny and run..and rebuild Amiga as a Computer.
Never ever tell me it cant be done............it can! it always can! If we think out of the box.....never conform to human thought..which always limits people.
I perform at a Club on Saturdays using my CD32 for Visuals. last week they hired to VJ's using High powered Mac Laptops for Visuals using MotionDive Tokyo and Archaos.
The Club workers were so dissapointed with their crappy visuals, compared to my CD32!!!! And I suck at animating!
what they liked was the resolution my CD32/SX32 pro outputs and how good and clear it looks! they were only able to output 320 x 240 to be able to run visuals smoothly and mix them..............I run my Visuals at 752 x 480 where ever I can and still run it smooth.
man it was kind satifsying to hear that. :-)
Amiga makes it Posible. I can run Flash quality animations on an Amiga and so can you..if you "THINK" out of the box. How you say? FLASH is just a fancy word that makes people think their computers are up to date. But take a FLASH anim and convert it to Anim5 or ANIM8_32..........and its still Flash.......it still looks good...........and still high quality..........tell people its FLASH and they willbelieve it..........and it really is............just running on a different Harddrive..thats all!
Iff someone asks me if I can run a Flash presentation for them that they created.......I say sure thing..............I go do it and display it on the projector..........they say "Thanks!" and never know I ran it in Anim8 format on a different computer..........all they know is their animation looked exactly the same.............I equate it to it bieng made on a DVD.....and just simply transfered to DV tape.........nothing loss really...just its not a DVD anyore...but it is still 720 x 480.
lets not conform! lets Transform!
transform the way poeple think that is!
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BeOS was "the Amiga done right" - according to Jean-Louis Gassée, founder of Be Inc.
yellowTAB's Zeta OS is the successor to BeOS (www.yellowtab.com). Check out the Zeta liveCD to get an idea of how Amiga might look/function on X86. Quite a few driver issues, as one would expert, but FAST booting, a good collection of applications (GoBe Productive office suite, Firefox, etc.), ports of Linux utils (Bash, NdisWrapper, VLC, etc), and a lot more.
If Amiga moved to X86 right now, it'd have a LOT of catching up to do, not to mention the fact that Zeta is really pretty good. Is there room for two similarly modern OSs on Intel hardware?
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If Amiga moved to X86 right now, it'd have a LOT of catching up to do.
That's something of an understatement, any of the Amiga/like OSs needs what is essentially a complete rewrite, MorphOS at least has the Quark kernel but no Q-Box API to speak of. BeOS had a modern kernel and API 10 years ago.
Is there room for two similarly modern OSs on Intel hardware?
No, one will have to use AMD hardware :-D
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anyway i find this thread insulting to our efforts with both OS4 and MorphOS , afterall they are the future OS's you guys will most likely use (since this is still an Amiga board...aint it?....) (aros and morphos works closely at some parts it seems and winuae is getting better every day but the future of OS4 and MorphOS last i checked was not X86....)
Dont see it as insulting, but more as constructive criticism. The things that need to be done to bring the platform back into the limelight arent happening. Maybe somebody will listen and put forth some products worth buying.
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@CHR_ZD
am not triggering anyone. What is it? You can't post arguments?
You posted a article that does not put the Amiga in a positive light. If it is not pro Amiga, you will be shot down in flames (see how f/cked up this thread has turned on aw.net, all thanks to a moderator)
Coincidence that thread has vanished, supposedly due to a forum reshuffle.
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who are your customers?
I think that says it all.
I use Windows XP on PC and it does everything I want a computer to do.
That statement goes for the mayority of people on the globe.
Amiga had the image of a toy when it went down. For the people that still remember the thing it is still a toy.
Yes, a toy! Even the die hard Amiga fundamentalists.
Once there, you don't have applications yet. So it's just a toy.
There is not even a decent browser on the amiga.
And would there be one I'd need something RTG to make it go.
And then we would have....
....just PCs with PPCs
So those who are still working on Amiga things are not doing anything what will shake the world.
Maybe someday when all microsoft goes bad and the AmigaOS is that cheap and is able to run on stock hardware, people might take notice.
I think I'll have more chance being struck by lightning or win the lottery (which I do not participate in).
I'm going back playing SWOS on my Amiga which is a toy to me for a long time. And that is what it will always be.
Nice article dave.
EDIT:
As I understand those fundamentalists are to be found at AW.net on which I would be shot on sight for my point of view.
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I always thought Dave was a super smart guy. Still do.
Plaz
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The future of AmigaOS is x86.
I have always felt whenever I have used Workbench 3.1 that why must the OS be locked down to specific hardware. WB is to nice to be locked to a 600 dollar motherboards or classic amigas with 300 dollar turbo boards.
Think about it. If WB 3.1 was x86 I could probably run it reasonably well on my old 486 (ie a 486 is about the same speed as a 040).
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@cv643D
(ie a 486 is about the same speed as a 040).
-------------------------------------------------------
I know what you are trying to say.....but just a sidenote.
a 486 is NOT the same speed as an 040...........though they were in competition with each other at the time and existed around the same time............an 040 will destroy a 486...........an 040 plugged into an Amiga is more like a Pentium II in my experience.
Mathematically calculating...........Yes a 486 will render about the same or faster. But in actual use..a 486 is super unusable...........heck........my CD32/SX32 pro is 030 50 Mhz and its faster and smoother than any Pentium II.
Just amore satisfying experience is what I really mean.
an 030 cant play Quicktme or edit Video like a Pentium II, but when it comes to responsiveness..........Ah man! Amiga kills in this area.
I cant use a Pentium II today....too slow!....... but my CD32 however, is my main machine and even use it over my Pentium 4!
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Amiga Format magazine in the UK compared Quake running on an AGA '060 system to it running on a 486 DX100.
The DX100 is alledgedly faster than the Pentium-1 60Mhz so I would tend to agree with this. It just seems faster as AmigaOS is so efficient.
I think the PowerPC '601' was made to compete with the Pentium-1, the '602', 603(/e) & 604 with Pentium-2 etc.
I admire Dave Haynie (doesn't he have an electric hybrid car?) and his programs have saved my life... but I think the old Amiga engineers' favour for PCI and x86 may have been a contributor to the demise of Amiga more than Commodore's poor business decisions. If only the AAA chipset had been completed!
:-)
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leirbag28 wrote:
Have you ever compared Apples for Apples ? Have you ever compiled a peice of source code for your CD32 and the same code for a Pentium II and proved that the 030 is faster/smoother/slicker/tastier ?
Just curious is all, as I'm finding it hard to stretch my imagination enough that a CD32 can outperform a Pentium II (no matter if the Pentium II is running Windows 98/2000/XP or Linux.
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Doppie... that was a very negative post...
We should all have the enthusiasm of Leirbag28.
I think the Amiga's main strength was it's video capability although I do think we cheated in that to get 31Khz horizontal refresh like PCs get we would be running at 50% speed due to ChipRAM bandwidth.
I hear the Commodore logo has been slapped onto some rubbish Windows based handheld PC again, let's hope the Amiga brand stays safe. Maybe it's time someone wrote a letter to Sir Alan Sugar or some other decent European entrepreneur to inject some serious backing into the Amiga, perhaps even re-buying the company.
If at the end of 1999 the Amiga and it's patents were bought for $10m, how hard would it be to raise that these days... it's peanuts in a market where Microsoft counts the success of the X-Box on how many hundreds of millions $$$ less it lost this year compared to last.
Custom hardware, assembly coded apps, low requirements for programs, hardcore gamer/creator users and a crazy demo-scene made the Amiga for me. I know the Amiga is an American machine but it has survived mainly in Germany so I believe a German hardware firm should ressurrect it.
There's still Amstrad though...
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Hyperspeed wrote:
Doppie... that was a very negative post...
I don't know, I think Doppie is right on track. I'll be sticking with my "Classic" Amiga because I like some of the old programs and messing with the hardware. I'll work with my new x86 Mac that can dual boot into Windows XP and OS X. I'll play with my Amiga...
Mike
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@Sparky
Hiya Sparky! :-D
Don't worry......I am not crazy........I know for sure that a Pentium 2 can process 30 jpg images and convert them to 256 colored Floyed Steinberg dithered images in the same time it takes my CD32 to just do one.
I know that............I mentioned that in my post when I said mathematically. But performancewise....my Amiga always looks slicker............read higher above in my Original post how what I displayed put Two laptops users to shame. One was probably a Mac. Never even met them.
This was in a real enviromnet popping up images an animations real fast on the screen and intime with the music........I didnt say a word.........this was just what one of the Lighting personell there had to say.....plus they hired me and my Amiga.....and not those guys.
I know he was partially right......as I have seen how these apps look crappy and play crappy.......so far I have not seen much that my Amiga cannot do! especially if I had a DCTV connected.
Even if it wasnt for the Amiga.......I have seen that the Amiga can stand up in these matters....especially with a Toaster4000.
I dont think I'm cool or anything.......I rather think I kinda suck and am not good enough. But PC's just simply.....are much suckier. Probably more correctly said if I blamed it on WIndows. As I always say:
"It's NOT that Amigas are really GOOD, it's that PC's really suck!"
Im using Elan Performer and Scala MM300 on my CD32/SX32 pro 50mhz 128mb RAM 40 gig HD with MASPlaer MP3 hardware. and DSS8 plus. also the MindEYE hardware with software.
Honestly dude.....my Amiga rocks hardcore. Imagine if I knew how to animate Visuals like Demo coders......
An Amiga is never obsolete.....just like a Piano isnt obsolete......it still does its job..and does it well.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@cv643D
(ie a 486 is about the same speed as a 040).
-------------------------------------------------------
I know what you are trying to say.....but just a sidenote.
a 486 is NOT the same speed as an 040...........though they were in competition with each other at the time and existed around the same time............an 040 will destroy a 486...........an 040 plugged into an Amiga is more like a Pentium II in my experience.
Mathematically calculating...........Yes a 486 will render about the same or faster. But in actual use..a 486 is super unusable...........heck........my CD32/SX32 pro is 030 50 Mhz and its faster and smoother than any Pentium II.
Just amore satisfying experience is what I really mean.
an 030 cant play Quicktme or edit Video like a Pentium II, but when it comes to responsiveness..........Ah man! Amiga kills in this area.
I cant use a Pentium II today....too slow!....... but my CD32 however, is my main machine and even use it over my Pentium 4!
ACK!!!!!
I don't post much, but I have to on this one.
First, your earlier post about Amiga having to come back as a hardware company may be partailly correct, only it is impossible. In a perfect world Amiga execs would have $100 dollar bills on rolls like toilet paper but it does not work that way. Amiga will never return like that. x86 would be a better avenue. If there was an x86 port with open office and firefox I would be running it on this laptop right now. I would spend the $100 price tag without batting an eye and have a portable Amiga environment.
Now...as for your 040=Pentium 2 comment.
The only way an 040 is close to a pentium 2 is that they both run hot. The P2 runs laps around the 040. The absolute slowest P2's were 133? On the high end, there were 600 Mhz and higher P2's. A 600Mhz p2 will playback 16bit MP3 while surfing the web and playing Quake in a window at 30fps without any serious slow down...that while running windoze 98! A 40Mhz 040 cannot even play back MP3 well. Maybe if you run songplayer and cut your quality to crap it will, but if you try to do more than IRC it will skip.
My P2 generation celeron desktop is in my son's room and it will play DIVX files full screen in 1024x768 24bit. Try that on an 040. Can you lower the resolution and color depth enough to get the image to move?
A 600Mhz P2 is more on par with a Cyberstorm PPC233/060 board, with the context switches thrown in to slow things down. The P2 would beat it at most CPU intensive tasks though. The slower P2's were on par with an 060. Once PC hit P3, Amiga has nothing even close, including am1ga. This laptop is a slow 1.13Ghz p3 mobile. I installed UAE on it with OS3.9 and it benchmarked faster than my miggy, but it was a pain to deal with so I dumped it. If I could do a complete native OS install, I would be there in a heartbeat.
I don't understand why that is so difficult for Amiga companies to understand. Sure there will be more piracy if you move the AmigaOS to PC, but you will sell so many more units that the pirated units will be insignificant by comparison. I was a huge amiga fan. I had an A4000PPC/060 system built to the gills. I will probably never buy another Amiga system because the gap in hardware is so significant, especially given the premium price. If I could log into Tigerdirect and order a $450 wintergreen PC that includes a DVD+/-RW, 512Mb ram, 80Gb HD, nic, AC97, etc...slap a $5 case sticker on it with a boing ball, and install OS4 for $100, I would do it within the next month.
But $500 for a bare motherboard that is 4 years out of date? I might spend $50 on a tee-shirt, but I am not THAT gullible.
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I just wish people could stop trying to compare Amigas to PCs or other platforms. There's no comparison because their intended functions are completely different.
The "IBM PC Compatable" computers have always been designed for general business use. Walk into a cube farm today, or in 1994, you'll see a PC. A Mac perhaps if you go into the publishing department.
Where do you find the Amiga? TV stations (many still use them today for titling). Graphics studios (Took SGI workstations to pry Amigas out of the hands of the folks at Foundation Imaging, and most of them took their Amigas home). And of course, the home gamers, who loved the superior graphics capabilities and ease of use.
Amigas are graphics workstations. Always have been. Specialized machines designed for a specific task. Great games came as a result of the graphics cababilities. Trying to turn Amiga into a general business machine is rediculous at best, and doomed to failure.
If someone were actually serious about bringing the Amiga back from the shadows, they'd be sitting down with AMD and nVidia and designing a new kick-ass graphics workstation... Not x86 based, but the best RISC CPU AMD can dream up... Combined with the best chipset and GPU nVidia can crank out. Keep the simplicity of the OS, designed specifically for the architectural design. As it was before.
In other words, don't compete with Microsoft and Apple... Compete with SGI and SUN. Wow Animators and movie studios. The games will take care of themselves. Applications will of course follow suit as they always do.
Haynie is getting his wish already... AROS. It's success will be in combining the simplicity of AmigaOS with the cheapness of x86 hardware.
Perhaps this is blasphemy, but I believe the PPC is dying. Apple's announcement has essentially signed its death warrant. It's doomed to the same fate as the DEC Aplha Generation processors. Cost is determined by production, which is determined by demand. PPC costs will soar to unreasonable heights, making it useless for anything other than embeded systems... Which is not what Amiga is about (that's what BeOS and QNX are for).
Haynie is almost right... Amiga's future lies in the past. Follow the original model that succeded, and you will find success once again. But x86 is not the way (tho with enough support, AROS can beat Linux here).
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Dr_Righteous wrote:
AROS can beat Linux here.
ahem (http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/faq.php#why-are-you-using-linux-and-x11)...
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Ahem what? Linux is being used to aid in development. So what? I still say done right, and with enough community support, AROS has a chance to unseat Linux as the number 2 x86 OS.
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Did anyone see the see the New Intel Macs (MacBook Pro and IMac) using the IntelDuo processor?? They are 2-3x faster than the G4 and G5 macs (depending on the model you get)..
The differences people seemed to be shocked about here seems to be the difference between the US computer market and the European Market. A long time ago I quit being religous about which processor something is based on. The only better CPU is the FASTER one..
This week I am buying a motherboard with a dual-core 64-bit processor with a PCI express video card. I am looking at buying one with 1 Gigabyte of it's own memory and two GPUs on one card with SLI support 4 more cards of the same type.
Ask yourself a question does Amiga Operating System directly support this kinda hardware? If it did is there drivers for it? Does the Amiga OS still stay competitive? I still like the way it works, but until it edits my 1080i recorded video programs, I can do realtime modeling with shaders, and network all my multimedia jukebox style over my UPnP media extenders, then I really won't have a good reason to be using AmigaOS. Amiga used to be the multimedia machine. Now with just the OS left on what is now less than spectacular hardware that could you some major tech leaps no one here in the USA is gonna wanna use it, or innovate software for it.
I love the Amiga, but I see nails in the coffin every day. My portable media player now will run AmigaOS, and that's a Playstation Portable..
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@A3KOne
I think you respond unecessarily......as I already explained that....if you read more closely, I think you will get what I am saying. Already said that the Pentium II will win in Mathematical area.
but I think this part of my comment sums it up:
"Just a more satisfying experience is what I really mean.
an 030 cant play Quicktme or edit Video like a Pentium II, but when it comes to responsiveness..........Ah man! Amiga kills in this area."
Plus you compare unfairly.........add a Picasso IV and a VLAB motion to an 040..and it can do quite amazingly.............no it wont play "DIVX" but will play Divx quality movies.........one just has to know what they are doing......or if someone took the time to convert it to an Amiga format......you will be amazed.
its all about the Closeness of everything in the Amiga working together and AmigaOS
Windows is a horrible OS, horribly organized.
Amiga wins in Responsiveness and better overall system.
Keep in mind, one can easily say a Pentium II is even comparable to an AmigaONE...in some ways one can see that.......but in reality they would be wrong........as they are judging it based on lack of Apps, including DIVX playback, or FLASH or Quicktime.............these things just need to be written.
I think most would choose an Amiga with 040 VLAB and picasso set up correctly over a Pentium II any day.
Heck.....I personally would choose an AGA 030 Amiga over the fastest Pentium III
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@ Dr_Righteous wrote:
Ahem what? Linux is being used to aid in development. So what? I still say done right, and with enough community support, AROS has a chance to unseat Linux as the number 2 x86 OS.
AROS cannot qualify as an operating system until they have their own kernel. I would like to remind you that it has taken nearly 10 years for linux to become what it is today (with a support AROS will never have). Also being the number 2 x86 OS does not mean anything anymore because x86 will be obsolete in a few years time. Right now it's too late to design an OS for this architecture.
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SO!
whos gonna do the x86 port of OS4?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHA! manical laughter
no one.....
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motorollin wrote:
A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.
He didn't have to say nothing, this is all COMMON SENSE! In fact, I mentioned all those points Dave mentioned directly to the current developers of OS4 on ann.lu before they even started development. I'm sure many here can recall the massive flame wars that ravaged the Amiga community back then, and most of it was over these points.
- Mike
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look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has
Oh yeah, well here's something it doesn't have: a user base! A small handful of people doesn't make a viable computer market. Dangle a few million installs infront of me and I'd consider writing software for it. Otherwise, you may want to buy some ear plugs as all the laughing will really get annoying soon.
- Mike
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...and in 10 years Linux is still unusable by anyone but patient geeks and network admins.
Kernels alone don't make an operating system. BIOS and GUI/CLI are just as vital. AROS is concentrating on the interface first... Top-down design at its finest.
x86 has been obsolete for a long long time... It's been emulated by RISC processors since the late 90's. Even that hasn't managed to kill the instruction set... Expanding it to 64 bits won't kill it either. I suppose I should have said RISC86 instead.
If that's not what you meant, I'd like to know what you think will replace RISC86/x86.
"Support AROS will never have?" We'll see... I meerly suggest it is possible.
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Hey leirbag28!
I completely support you in your Amiga promoting and it's good the platform has some people who feel so strongly for it, however ...
I will swim up to the US and forcibly remove your fingers if you don't stop abusing the poor "." key! My brain pauses for long intervals when I read your posts!
:-D
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Dr_Righteous wrote:
If that's not what you meant, I'd like to know what you think will replace RISC86/x86.
I mean 64 bit x86 architecture and cell/new generation PPC architectures (xenon in xbox360, etc).
"Support AROS will never have?" We'll see... I meerly suggest it is possible.
nothing is impossible, I just wanted to say you underestimate linux and how much work put into it and overlook the fact that it's the kernel which is the most time consuming to code and critically important for OS' robustness and usability.
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Maybe AmigaOS should focus on the ARM cored platform. Intel will be dominated by Windows, with Linux making strides every day.
Something like AmigaOS with a really flexible GUI that can cope with really small / unusual screens and other output devices. Something along the lines of Contiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiki )
That would avoid the need for solving the memory management code and would capitalise on the strength of Amiga, keeping it simple.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@cv643D
(ie a 486 is about the same speed as a 040).
-------------------------------------------------------
I know what you are trying to say.....but just a sidenote.
a 486 is NOT the same speed as an 040...........though they were in competition with each other at the time and existed around the same time............an 040 will destroy a 486...........an 040 plugged into an Amiga is more like a Pentium II in my experience.
Mathematically calculating...........Yes a 486 will render about the same or faster. But in actual use..a 486 is super unusable...........heck........my CD32/SX32 pro is 030 50 Mhz and its faster and smoother than any Pentium II.
Just amore satisfying experience is what I really mean.
an 030 cant play Quicktme or edit Video like a Pentium II, but when it comes to responsiveness..........Ah man! Amiga kills in this area.
I cant use a Pentium II today....too slow!....... but my CD32 however, is my main machine and even use it over my Pentium 4!
Actually, when I used to run AROS on an old 25Mhz 486 it ran exactly as my 040 Amiga does... similar response times etc.
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countzero wrote:
@ Dr_Righteous wrote:
Ahem what? Linux is being used to aid in development. So what? I still say done right, and with enough community support, AROS has a chance to unseat Linux as the number 2 x86 OS.
AROS cannot qualify as an operating system until they have their own kernel. I would like to remind you that it has taken nearly 10 years for linux to become what it is today (with a support AROS will never have). Also being the number 2 x86 OS does not mean anything anymore because x86 will be obsolete in a few years time. Right now it's too late to design an OS for this architecture.
Oops, perhaps we should get rid of those old documents :-(
AROS has be a stand-alone operating system for over 6 years... It does have the ability to run on top of Linux (or FreeBSD) to allow easy development (though some developers use VMware to get similar functionality without the need for Linux). Aros can and does run without any other OS required.
If you want to see AROS running all by itself, just try out the AROS-MAX distribution.
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am not triggering anyone. What is it? You can't post arguments?
You posted a article that does not put the Amiga in a positive light. If it is not pro Amiga, you will be shot down in flames (see how f/cked up this thread has turned on aw.net, all thanks to a moderator)
Coincidence that thread has vanished, supposedly due to a forum reshuffle.[/quote]
That's the problem. If Amiga supporter can't see how the world around is changing to learn from it and instead stick to the past Amiga is dead already. Yesterday Mcintosh launched Intel based machines and they also have their OS running on it. This was done in 1 year. Amiga development is running at less than 7Mhz!
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leirbag28 wrote:
Amiga wins in Responsiveness and better overall system.
Absolutely not. Any system where one app behaving badly through unintentional error causes the entire machine to freeze is BAD. Any system which doesn't offer built-in security to prevent unauthorised access to crucial system components is BAD.
I also saw something about sticking a VLAB and a Picasso IV in an Amiga and then compare it to a Pentium II. My dear Leirbag, let's be fair, then, and stick a GeForce2 MX (better yet, a Riva TNT) in the Pentium. The Amiga will be gently blown away, like a feather in a light breeze. And please note that Pentium II's are museum pieces, although the P2 @ 366 MHz in my Thinkpad laptop performed to full satisfaction until the screen gave out. I compiled, I drew, I wrote Java, I played Diablo II and Civilization III, I listened to MP3s---it was a wonderful machine. (And that was with a crippled video card.)
I can sum up a great deal of numbers, all of which point to the same thing: the P2 has more bandwidth, performs computations much faster, and is therefore, given the same algorithms embedded in software, the better machine. Period.
The truth is hard and painful sometimes.
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chd: no arguments? , i posted a long post just with arguments and you just ignored it like usual.
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I probably didn't find that post any smart.
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@nitro
What? a 1ghz amd having problems playing divx?.Even my p2 266 plays divx at decent rate. Definitely you have wrong setuped codecs or a dying os. Try finding the problem out or if you can't, reinstall it. It's incredible how people blame hardware when the problem really is in the bad configured software.
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leirbag28 wrote:
I think most would choose an Amiga with 040 VLAB and picasso set up correctly over a Pentium II any day.
Heck.....I personally would choose an AGA 030 Amiga over the fastest Pentium III
First of all you are going to be hardpressed to find a P3 these days much less a P2. My pentium 4 plays back 4 simultaneous uncompressed streams of D1 video while mixing them, thats something you cant do with your 040 VLAB system or even a much better Toaster/Flyer. (though it will do 2 streams of D2 at a time). The Laptop that Apple released yesterday edits uncompressed HD video, it costs $2K and it comes with software to edit HD, for $500 more you can upgrade to one of the best HD editors on the planet and edit in your hammock in the backyard and then stream it wireless to your customer for approval. This is what we need to overcome if we are going to become a "graphics" computer again. And I just don't see Hyperion/Eyetech getting us there.
-Tig
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@ThEcRow
Yes well it is one of my old machines. I started making DivX movies in 2000, with Vidomi. They are very compressed. The machine I`m setting on right now is An Athlon XP2600+, 512MB Ram, Radeon 9200, doesn`t have these problems. Please guys start ragging my hardware I`m just a poor Department of Defence employee-Disabled Vet. It`s not like I`m rich or something. Besides that BSplayer works better for DivX. I haven`t messed with DivX in about 4 years since I got a DVD burner. Anyway the point I was trying to get across is Windows waste alot of resorces. If AmigaOS was port to x86, sure it will be faster, but nothing you have amiga will run on it. Everything would have to be rewritten. Like Dave said "make the best of it" is true. But we users are too busy fighting over Red team, Blue team, to unite under a common goal. Apple can afford to take the chance to change. You can nail apples to a telephone pole, but that don`t make it an apple tree. True the A1 and Pegasos are not true custom hardware Amigas. Dave would know that`s for sure, but at least the programs still run on PPC. x86 there`s Aros.
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AROS cannot qualify as an operating system until they have their own kernel.
Then AROS has been a Operating System for five plus years. Your not under the misunderstanding that it's all hosted, are you?
BTW, AROS should be AMD64 native in the coming months. See this bounty (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/bounty_details_21.html).
Dammy
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Yesterday Mcintosh launched Intel based machines and they also have their OS running on it. This was done in 1 year. Amiga development is running at less than 7Mhz!
what? i was under the impression that macintosh x86 was under development along side macintosh ppc development for many years. they have been planning this for more than just 1 year.
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jkirk wrote:
Yesterday Mcintosh launched Intel based machines and they also have their OS running on it. This was done in 1 year. Amiga development is running at less than 7Mhz!
what? i was under the impression that macintosh x86 was under development along side macintosh ppc development for many years. they have been planning this for more than just 1 year.
OSX ran on ia32 from day one.
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I've been saying the same as Dave for about five years now, but most of the time people have just scoffed. I don't expect the reaction would be very different now.
I haven't touched an Amiga or an Amiga emulator of any sort for about two years now, and you know what? I don't miss it one bit.
It's a shame, but the neo-Amigas are no more than toys, as Dave says. That's OK because people can still have fun with toys, but they don't register when people consider real computing solutions.
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Like always to disagree with Dave Haynie, is like going in a catholic church and talking bad about the pope. Welcome to the new Microsoft.org, never noticed so many Windows fans before. Anyway, Sony takes the Pegasos2-toy so serious that the have their Sony-Europe running off of it. OpenSolaris found it`s way to it. Along with many Linux distros. Apple will still have PPC for awhile. Genesi is doing better now more than ever with thier partners. Not bad for a toy company. Way to go Bill.
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Glaucus:
So youre actually saying that 68k has more active users and developers than morphos/os4 ones? ..
i fail to see how you could come up with such an argument, pathetic.
read my post before trying to troll it down.
and yes i have bought ear plugs because thats the only way i can cope with your ludicrus statements :-)
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chr: ofcourse you didnt because i had an aguement for every thing your orginal posts said.
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@CHR_ZD
:roflmao: OK man, you win, I`ll reinstall the codecs.
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Dr_Righteous wrote:
...and in 10 years Linux is still unusable by anyone but patient geeks and network admins.
Kernels alone don't make an operating system. BIOS and GUI/CLI are just as vital. AROS is concentrating on the interface first... Top-down design at its finest.
x86 has been obsolete for a long long time... It's been emulated by RISC processors since the late 90's. Even that hasn't managed to kill the instruction set... Expanding it to 64 bits won't kill it either. I suppose I should have said RISC86 instead.
If that's not what you meant, I'd like to know what you think will replace RISC86/x86.
"Support AROS will never have?" We'll see... I meerly suggest it is possible.
Dang... Where do we start....
The design methodology of starting with the GUI and working your way down to everything else virtually guarantees failure in all but the simpliest of projects.
Would you design the braking system for a truck to fit around the design of the wheels? You would most likely find out in mid development of your breaking system, that the rim design would have to be changed to accomidate the braking system. Now you have to redesign the braking system and the wheel.
You would probably want to start out with the engine, then the frame, then the brakes, then the wheels, etc. A from the ground up design, similar to any other engineering practice.
I dont think what you said even apples to aros, as they modeled the kernel first, then wrote the outer layers.
Now for the x86 statement.
How did you come to the conclusion that x86 is obsloete? Then you mention the instruction set. So what about the instruction set? All that really matters is that you can run blah alogrithm on blah hardware with blah efficiency. The c compilers are better at producing efficient assembler code than the majority of programmers out there so thats not an issue either. x86 provides good performance at a reasonable price. Whats wrong with that? I think your main issue isnt hardware, but the quality of software.
Sure, aros will continue to gain some momentum, but it will top out at some point, much lower than linux because it's just not modern enough to be useful to most people. Even worse, as more and more people start developing for the platform, the more bad quality software there will be runining the end users experience. Then aros will gain reputation for being buggy crap and nobody will want to use it except for religious amiga users.
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Are there really honestly people who still believe that the Amiga can somehow take on Microsoft?
I mean really?
Here and now in 2006?
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Wed 11th Jan 2006: Me!
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koaftder wrote:
How did you come to the conclusion that x86 is obsloete? Then you mention the instruction set. So what about the instruction set? All that really matters is that you can run blah alogrithm on blah hardware with blah efficiency. The c compilers are better at producing efficient assembler code than the majority of programmers out there so thats not an issue either. x86 provides good performance at a reasonable price. Whats wrong with that? I think your main issue isnt hardware, but the quality of software.
I agree with you 99.9%. 99.9 because there is a little voice inside me which insists that good algorithms should run on elegant hardware too. I know, in practice it doesn't make one iota of difference save in speed, but that's because I am an engineer by training, and we all have our little fetishes.
Right?
The only thing which truly matters right now is multicore (whether on-chip, or on-motherboard) and multithreading capabilities. The rest is no longer an issue for the normal consumer market. The embedded market is something else, however.
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leirbag28 wrote:
@A3KOne
I think you respond unecessarily......as I already explained that....if you read more closely, I think you will get what I am saying. Already said that the Pentium II will win in Mathematical area.
but I think this part of my comment sums it up:
"Just a more satisfying experience is what I really mean.
an 030 cant play Quicktme or edit Video like a Pentium II, but when it comes to responsiveness..........Ah man! Amiga kills in this area."
Plus you compare unfairly.........add a Picasso IV and a VLAB motion to an 040..and it can do quite amazingly.............no it wont play "DIVX" but will play Divx quality movies.........one just has to know what they are doing......or if someone took the time to convert it to an Amiga format......you will be amazed.
its all about the Closeness of everything in the Amiga working together and AmigaOS
Windows is a horrible OS, horribly organized.
Amiga wins in Responsiveness and better overall system.
Keep in mind, one can easily say a Pentium II is even comparable to an AmigaONE...in some ways one can see that.......but in reality they would be wrong........as they are judging it based on lack of Apps, including DIVX playback, or FLASH or Quicktime.............these things just need to be written.
I think most would choose an Amiga with 040 VLAB and picasso set up correctly over a Pentium II any day.
Heck.....I personally would choose an AGA 030 Amiga over the fastest Pentium III
In the case of my 500Mhz celeron PC, it uses an intel 810 Gfx chipset. My PPC Amiga had a CybervisionPPC board. The Permedia2 on a local PCI was probably faster than the intel.
The PC was as fast or faster playing video. At the time I Got rid of my miggy, there was no DIVX. The CPU was the bottleneck. My underpowered x86 win98 box was just as fast.
I agree that responsiveness is an issue...but the fact is, if you ported OS4 to x86 and had it running on cheap PC hardware, it would be even more responsive. A cheap integrated P4 3Ghz motherboard, with a cheap SiS integrated chip set and shared ram would run circles around the fastest Amiga or clone on the market (or drawing board).
I am posting this from my IBM Thinkpad T23 1.13Ghz P3M laptop with 384Mb ram that I bought used for $400 almost a year ago. I am running Debian Sarge that I installed for free, and using a wireless network card that I paid $12 for, from TigerDirect. I use OpenOffice and FireFox every day, and If AmigaOS was available for it, I would gladly pay $100 for it...and it would fly...and I would be happy.
The fact is, OS4 was rewritten to uncouple it from the legacy Amiga hardware...unfortunately it has been couple to another dinosaur, the PowerPC.
If Hyperion or Amiga was serious about moving forward and making Amiga a viable platform again, they would move to x86. The only reason I can see that they would not, is if their intentions are not for the desktop market anyway...and I think that is likely the case. I spent more money on Amiga hardware than most people, but here is reality...my antique laptop with Linux will outperform the fastest am1ga solution in every way, responsiveness included.
I wish AROS well, but without official support, I don't see them becoming more than a hobbyist OS. An official Amiga x86 release could potentially be more.
I want Amiga to succeed. I REALLY WANT an Amiga solution. I am not going to pay a ridiculous price for vintage hardware to get it. You can flame me or insult me or whatever, but here is the truth. Most people care about how well something works and how much it costs. AmigaOS on x86 would work better than on PPC, and cost MUCH less. Most people do not care if the chip says motorola instead of intel on it. The only people who do are the fanatical Amiga purists, and there are not enough of them left to buy the am1ga to make it a viable platform for the future.
In the end when the question is asked "who killed Amiga?"
The sad answer will be "The people who loved it most."
Even sadder is that they will blame someone else...Medhi Ali and Jack Tramiel are not around to blame anymore, but I am sure that they will find someone.
-
I wish AROS well, but without official support, I don't see them becoming more than a hobbyist OS. An official Amiga x86 release could potentially be more.
If you think any BoingBall OS is going to make a dent in the desktop market, your in for a rude awakening. Is AROS a hobbiest OS? Sure, right along with MOS and OS4. They are all hobbiest OSs and anything beyond that is mearly an exercise in fantasy or out right delusions.
Dammy
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It's not official support that makes the difference, it's developer support. None of the neo-Amiga platforms have adequate developer support, which is why they are no more than toys for geeks at the moment.
Fun toys for those with the money to burn, perhaps, but still toys.
I think the term "hobbyist" is a bit grand, really. "Cult" would be more appropriate.
Anyway, time to climb back into my box again. :lol:
-
@Sparky
Sorry.........hehe.....I need that"." key to help me convey my thoughts :-D
@Cymric
Quote:
leirbag28 wrote:
Amiga wins in Responsiveness and better overall system.
Absolutely not. Any system where one app behaving badly through unintentional error causes the entire machine to freeze is BAD. Any system which doesn't offer built-in security to prevent unauthorised access to crucial system components is BAD.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???
Partly its because of its responsiveness............When I am Doing Visuals I use:
Scala MM300
Elan Performer
DSS8
MindEYE
Trip A Tron
Brilliance
AMPlifier
all at the same Time! on a 68030 CD32/SX32 and I swap between them with the LEFT AMIGA + M key! Never seen a PC swap that fast! and still no slowdown.
Everyone knows PC's are massive headaches...I have never ever in my entire life had a pleasurable PC experience. not even with my Pentium 4.......thats why we and all Mac users consistently complain....The Proof is in the Pudding. PC's just suck and so does Windows. Something is just not right.
Amigas are very productive......imagine if updated properly..........WooHoo!
Im not excited because I am a fanatic......I am excited because I know what this machine can do at such low specs.....and only imagine if there was the AAA Chipset and a 400Mhz 68090 with Workbench 3.6 Nuclear Edition with a free bottle of Plutonium for powering your CPU. hehe!
@Nitro
"Welcome to the new Microsoft.org, never noticed so many Windows fans before."
Hahahahahah! :-D thats darn funny! Microsoft.Org hehehe
-
Like Dave said...Geeks want something cool.
There is nothing cool about 600Mhz G3 other than operating temperature.
Geek toy? No.
Fanatic toy? Yes.
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A3KOne wrote:
Geek toy? No.
Fanatic toy? Yes.
I was trying to be polite. ;-)
-
lempkee wrote:
Glaucus:
So youre actually saying that 68k has more active users and developers than morphos/os4 ones? ..
Nope. I wasn't diferentiating between 68K/OS4/MOS, but the entire Amiga & Amiga-like market to the mainstream market. There is no viable software for the 68k/OS4/MOS markets. If you wanna play the latest games, you can't be serious about any of those. If you want serious business software, you can't be serious of any of those (and never could). Even desktop video and graphics software is better on the mainstream market. If you just want to surf your time away on the web, you'd still be better off with the mainstream market.
Get my point? No one is gonna invest big bucks into a computer that has almost zero utility. If you want to start off a new OS you'd best do so in such a way so that it's easy and cheap for people to buy into it. Ideally, OS4 would have been on PC hardware and software would have been given out for free or very little cost. The PC hardware would have been easy to do, the free release not so much. But still, even at a reasonable cost, AmigaOS4 could have been viable on standard hardware. That's my point.
- Mike
-
Hi Bill! Long time no see. How are things?
- Mike
-
Glaucus wrote:
Hi Bill! Long time no see. How are things?
- Mike
Reasonably good. I've been away from all things Amiga for many months now - don't even have a posting account on ANN! :lol:
Mind you, nowt's changed. I might have been away for no more than a week.
Get my point? No one is gonna invest big bucks into a computer that has almost zero utility. If you want to start off a new OS you'd best do so in such a way so that it's easy and cheap for people to buy into it. Ideally, OS4 would have been on PC hardware and software would have been given out for free or very little cost. The PC hardware would have been easy to do, the free release not so much. But still, even at a reasonable cost, AmigaOS4 could have been viable on standard hardware. That's my point
I think that's the point Dave was making too.It was a path that suited some of the existing user base, but one which excluded for ever any opportunity for growth. It's amazing that even five years later people keep vehemently denying it against all available evidence.
-
Personally I feel that making OS4 available on both PPC and X86 platforms would've been a good move
-
by lempkee on 2006/1/10 8:38:56
u guys must be mental or something ..sorry but wtf are you guys on about?
Yes, I am mental! Why else would I still love to use an Amiga?
you guys (and haynie too) are missing a crucial thing here, morphos and os4 has been dooing everyting on their own more or less
So which is it the more or the less? I'm going with the later until I see something I can get my hands on. (even if it is four years late)
look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has, look how stagnated the 68k arena is, ever crossed your mind why?
First of all, my 68K Amiga exists and I can touch it and use it. I can't speak about MOS, but as far as OS4 is concerned... How the heck do you expect me to "look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has". I can't buy OS4 software, even if I could buy it, what hardware am I to run it on? That doesn't seem to exist either. The only people who have OS4 are the few select developers who did get it. This is not the majority of the Amiga user base. How many people own an Amiga one? I'm hearing people on here talking of jumping on the first available opportunity to dump their Micro A1. What conclusion should that bring to someone's mind?
i belived it was time to show the world what a slow ass machine can do if the OS running on it was amazing , doing such on a x86..sure would probably be cool but who will support and make drivers for the millions of types of boards and so on?
Yeah, sure that would be cool. But why shoot for the bottom of the pile? Think of how much cooler it would be to run OS4 on a top of the line state of the art system. (The system that Amiga once was.) Wouldn't it be cool to walk into your local Walmart and pay $499 USD for a system and the clerk says to you "So which operating system would you like with that? Do you want the Bloated Windows operating system that will use up the majority of your hard drive space so that you won't have any room for your pictures and movies and that will require gigabytes worth up updates to keep it from crashing and to keep you safe from every threat known to a CPU register? OR... would you rather have this kick ass Amiga operating system that uses less than a Gig of your hard drive space, supports open document formats, runs at more than twice the speed of it's nearest counter part and is fully backward compatible so that you can also play all of those old games you remember from your childhood. Oh, and by the way, if you really want to run Windows, well you can run that under emulation, along with OS-X, Linux, etc."
If the only concern was running super fast on outdated hardware then Amithlon would be sufficient to appease the masses who would soon loose interest anyway.
As far as who writes the drivers, well, who writes the drivers of X86 hardware now? It seems that it would be more detremental to an operating system to try to support hardware that is old and going obsolete than it would be to support current and upcomming hardware. How much hardware from 1994 does Windows XP support? Even Bill gates realizes that there comes a time to pull the plug and kill the life support on somethings.
Look, I'm willing to support any development that supports the Amiga. If OS4 comes out and some matching hardware, I will probably buy it. But no developer has the right, nor should they have an expectation for support from a community for which they have developed nothing.
and that is exactley what it is right now... NOTHING!
Oh yes, I know it hurts the developers to hear this, I've been there myself. But the reality is until OS4 hits the shelf in a box with a price sticker on it and a hardware platform that it can run on exists then it is NOTHING! Yes, I know developers have toiled away for hours at code, but one bean counter can kill all of that effort with one mighty stroke of the pen through a zero!
As much as you may find this thread insulting to your efforts with OS4, many people would find it insulting to be told something that has no evidence of existance is the future we should be looking to. I'm not even talking that tangible evidence is required. Hell, lie to us if you want but at least be convincing. Amiga, Inc, etc. has done a pretty poor job of that to say the least.
You know, I typically hate reading this stuff and even more so hate propagating and contributing to these types of threads, but come on guys! Lets face the truth! OS4 development has been slow and misguided by almost any standard. It's time to SH#T or get off the pot!
And NO I'm not trolling! I don't have any agenda for any of these platforms or OS's! Most of them suck equally! I just love my Amiga (as so many of us do), so BUILD IT and I will come!
:destroy: :flame: :argue: :furious: :admonish:
Regards,
AmigaEd
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Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???
Because they are Amigans?
No, seriously, I could NEVER do with only an Amiga as my main machine. I can surf the web using IBrowse and be extremely fascinated over how fast it is on my 060. I can be impressed with how well Shapeshifter runs. I can bash my head against the wall when I realise that there is no pixel-GFX-proggy on the PC side which comes close to what DPaint and Brilliance has to offer. I can play games and cry somewhat when I realise how extremely well programmed they must be considering what a mess the Amiga must have been to program really advanced games on...
...I can do many things with my Amiga...
...but 50% of what I do, is just out of pure fascination on what it COULD do considering WHEN it could do those very things and how EFFECTIVE it actually was in some aspects... not to mention thinking about how time not have managed to make other OS'es cacth up in every single aspect, yet...
...another 45% I do to be inspired how things COULD have looked today if everything didn't go so wrong as it did, even wishing that OS:es of today could be inspired of some of the extremely effective and smart solutions classic AOS has had, and to some extent still has, to offer...
...and the remaining 5% I actally spend on doing things that I still can't do in a pleasing manner elsewhere. Pixling with DPaint V (did never surrender to the favourable Brilliance II, don't know why) for example. Can't find a way to do it on the PC... Photoshop, Grafx2, PaintShopPro... no way! I could always emulate it, but DPaint doesn't behave entirely correctly and Brilliance doesn't seem to work at all as it should under WinUAE, well, anyways...
...but, 100% of the time I spend with my Amiga I spend because it makes me feel so good sitting playing around with it. I love the OS, no matter that it lacks many things and have many things to be complained about, and I love many other things related to it, aswell...
...but, once again, I couldn't have it as my main machine. What it offers to me today is a source of inspiration, dreams of better times and extremely high nostalgic value. No matter if I actually use it for a couple of things I haven't found a way to do pleasantly elsewhere.
It is a sort of lifestyle and a hobby.
Everyone knows PC's are massive headaches...I have never ever in my entire life had a pleasurable PC experience. not even with my Pentium 4.......
I feel sorry for you. I've had extremely much pleasure with my PC's. Yes, they have given me headaches from time to time, but all in all I think they the best affordable alternative there is, at the moment. Possibly Mac's can be counted in here, aswell, but I am not to familiar with them yet (they have always intrigued me, but never have I owned one to toy around with... I have mostly emulated Classic Mac with the help of Shapeshifter on the Amiga and from time to time seen bits and pieces of MacOS X in action).
If it isn't headache to get a complete crash of the system, no matter what important tasks were running in the backgroung, a crash you will get on the Amiga almost anytime and anywhere when toying around too much in AOS, then I don't know what is a total headache. Of course I've had problems with Windows aswell, but only one time during the three or four, don't know really, years I've used XP it has completely crasched on me.
PC's just suck and so does Windows.
No they don't and no it doesn't.
It may be that the Windows, all of the different versions of it, has big flaws, and that there are too many things to be complained about concerning the OS in itself, but suck Windows does not.
Why do PC's suck, according to you? And why does Windows suck, according to you?
-
AmigaED: no idea where you have been the last year(s) but OS4 was released in pre release summer 2004 and since then its been updated 3 times (ie downloadable updates) but yes only for thoose who bought the AmigaOne Hw plattform.
as for Classic , OS4.0 will be on sale for classic. (and bundled with other new Amiga motherboards that will appear)
As for Morphos , both available for Pegasos1/2 and Classic atm.
so i dont understand your point ..if you want something for X86 ... go aros if you want something thats beeing updated regulary...or uae ...dont expect amithlon to do that though.
edit: why people wanna dump their micro a1 when something new comes ..well thats up to them to decide aint it? but here is a few reasons i think plays a big role , USB1.1 and only a 32mb gfx card onboard ..the other stuff is fairly ok.
If i was to like say, i want to dump my classic because my a1 beats the {bleep} out of it....wtf does that mean really? ..will the world go under and stop using Classic? ..sorry but lol.
-
by lempkee on 2006/1/11 21:06:47
but yes only for thoose who bought the AmigaOne Hw plattform.
Yep! Wasn't there with cash in hand in 2004 so, now what? Was that it? Obsolete 2004 Amiga One or nothing?
as for Classic , OS4.0 will be on sale for classic. (and bundled with other new Amiga motherboards that will appear)
Yep, that's great if it happens and as I said I'll most likely buy one. But honestly, don't you think people get tired of waiting for the carrot?
so i dont understand your point ..if you want something for X86 ... go aros if you want something thats beeing updated regulary...or uae ...dont expect amithlon to do that though.
Point is I don't give a hoot which platform it exists for, but at least give me something I can get. As I said Amithlon is great for putting on an old x86 system, but the novelty will wear off quickly. I use both AROS and WinUAE. They are available, they are what they are. No More, No Less. Hmmmm...OS4, want to buy, can't get it. Hmmmm....Can't get it with out the hardware, Hmmmm... can't get the hardware. Hmmmm....dying of old age!
edit: why people wanna dump their micro a1 when something new comes ..well thats up to them to decide aint it? but here is a few reasons i think plays a big role , USB1.1 and only a 32mb gfx card onboard ..the other stuff is fairly ok.
Point well, made. Outdated before it even came close to hitting the shelves. You know, now I'm glad I didn't have the money in 2004.
i want to dump my classic because my a1 beats the {bleep} out of it....wtf does that mean really?
Perhaps I would consider dumping my classic if I could get my hands on an A1 with OS4. But there in lies the problem.
..will the world go under and stop using Classic?
Not likely, considering the "world" is using Windows on x86 systems.
The people using the classic systems will continue to do so. It's what they have, it's what they like, They appreciate the history and quirks of the Amiga.
..sorry but lol.
Good luck with that... hope it all works out for you.
-AmigaEd
-
leirbag28 wrote:
Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???
Because you know every nook and cranny of the machine. You know its idiosyncracies. You know at what phase of the Moon you should ritually slaughter a chicken and perform dark magic rites to exorcise the pent-up bad juju.
Partly its because of its responsiveness............When I am Doing Visuals I use:
Scala MM300
Elan Performer
DSS8
MindEYE
Trip A Tron
Brilliance
AMPlifier
all at the same Time! on a 68030 CD32/SX32 and I swap between them with the LEFT AMIGA + M key! Never seen a PC swap that fast! and still no slowdown.
You are a sick masochist to use all that on a 68030 simultaneously. You know what I think? I think that you are grossly overestimating the response time of your tiny setup, and grossly underestimating that of a PC. You are also comparing task switching times when none of these programs are busy doing calculations and are in fact just waiting for user input. (The reason why I joined this forum was a discussion on task switching times. Someone wrote a program to demonstrate that Windows Sucked Badly. Unfortunately, he silently ignored setup delays, memory paging, and what not. And I am very certain you are ignoring that, too.)
I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.
Everyone knows PC's are massive headaches...I have never ever in my entire life had a pleasurable PC experience. not even with my Pentium 4.......thats why we and all Mac users consistently complain....The Proof is in the Pudding. PC's just suck and so does Windows. Something is just not right.
You know, this sort of fanboy talk just makes me smile vaguely. Somehow the word of anonymous users, all of whom are of course implied computer experts, must make it credible. My dear Leirbag: it won't, so stop wasting bandwidth on tactics you know are blatantly obvious. Let's start at the beginning. Define a 'pleasurable experience'. Explain to me why your Pentium IV can't give you that, but your whoefully underpowered and stressed-to-breaking-point 68030 can.
Im not excited because I am a fanatic......I am excited because I know what this machine can do at such low specs.....and only imagine if there was the AAA Chipset and a 400Mhz 68090 with Workbench 3.6 Nuclear Edition with a free bottle of Plutonium for powering your CPU. hehe!
You are a fanatic---in more ways than one, I should add---and ignoring that fact, so blatantly obvious to anyone else, won't make it go away. I think you never really, genuinely, looked at what the other machines can do when they are flexing their muscles.
Oh, and I noticed that you ignored my remarks on why Amigas are BAD, and chose to counter it with meaningless issues on task switching and anonymous computer users complaining. I have this awful sense of déja vu when I think of other discussion subjects where people behave in the same way---and that also means I should stop discussing things right here and now.
-
@Cymric
Quote:
leirbag28 wrote:
Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???
------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you know every nook and cranny of the machine. You know its idiosyncracies. You know at what phase of the Moon you should ritually slaughter a chicken and perform dark magic rites to exorcise the pent-up bad juju.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Cymric......this is partially part of the reason.......but with Good Reason! The Amiga is excellent!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Partly its because of its responsiveness............When I am Doing Visuals I use:
Scala MM300
Elan Performer
DSS8
MindEYE
Trip A Tron
Brilliance
AMPlifier
all at the same Time! on a 68030 CD32/SX32 and I swap between them with the LEFT AMIGA + M key! Never seen a PC swap that fast! and still no slowdown.
------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a sick masochist to use all that on a 68030 simultaneously. You know what I think? I think that you are grossly overestimating the response time of your tiny setup, and grossly underestimating that of a PC. You are also comparing task switching times when none of these programs are busy doing calculations and are in fact just waiting for user input. (The reason why I joined this forum was a discussion on task switching times. Someone wrote a program to demonstrate that Windows Sucked Badly. Unfortunately, he silently ignored setup delays, memory paging, and what not. And I am very certain you are ignoring that, too.)
I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is also True (some of it) SO I say ok then..... Task Switching on PC's Suck! :-D
By the way Try my setup.......68030 50mhz 128mb 40 gighd MASPlayer and see for yourself..........SCALA can run scripts and you can press LEFT AMIGA M and switch to workbench and run an MP3 from AMPlifier with not much difference..........and SCALA is still running it presentation. My Amiga needs to be capable of this.........the Club has no time to wait for me to Load software. This is activiely happening for 4 to 5 hours straight.
I will again say...Task switching on PC's definitely suck..................Due in part to the way VGA monitors wait to change sync......and also due to the Stupid start menu..........even key combination switching is just not the same............Draggable Amiga screens and clicking the top right corner icon on Amiga is simply unmatched.......Sorry, this is one of my favorite Amiga features........its just done right.......
........and....I'm not a masochist.......you only think that because you think my Amiga is slowing down. Its Not! I do however only probably use only 2 apps at a time (and yes you are right that they are just waiting user input) although all of them are open even though I only have 2mb Chip RAM :-D again....amazing considering how my P4 slows down if I have 4 apps open.
Ohhhh boy! And I am definitely not overestimating response Times. Do me a favor......Get Elan Performer load animations on to every single key.......preload them into RAM (the reason I need 128mb of RAM) or get a SCSI HD.......now Perform! as fast as you can! See! Thats why its called "PERFORMER" the best app of its kind on the Amiga..........theres tons of imitations on the PC (Archoas, Composite Station, GRID 2, Resolume,) and I find mine to be the slickest, even on my teeny weeny 030.
This speed may not impress you if your not a VJ.but think in terms of Fast Techno Music...and every image or animation on that key popping up at will intime with the music.
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Your right on this passage in almost all acounts.............But I use my PC every day..........every morning....every night..............to search for solutions to replace tasks on my Amiga................namely FIle conversion and Video Playback.
My conclusion..............a PC can never be used professionally for what I use it for reliably.............unless you never connect that PC to the internet and keep it clean and uncluttered. and use another PC for downloading.email etc.....just burn what you need to CD to put it on that PC.....................even wth all this......it still doesnt feel right.......Windows' directory file structure makes no sence.......its the most WACKO of its kind..............PC users are blind to this cuz they never knew anything better. So they dont get it when I say something like this.
I dont think PC's automatically suck........ one of my quotes is "Its not that Amigas are really good......it's that PC's really suck"
I dont think Amigas are all that great........I just think they are done Properly..and PC are not............Amiga has a good foundation OS, the PC does not..they just add Rockets and Turo Boost to a horrible OS to hide its crappiness By painting over it with More RAM more Mhz, More HD space...........Ridiculous! considering what the Amiga can do with such low specs............I will even completely cast out OS3.9 and below and just compare OS4 to Windows and Macs..........its still wayyyyyyy more efficient.
And by the way.......I never Said "I was NOT a Fanatic" I definitely am............I was just saying thats NOT the reason why I was saying what I was saying.
And some people might not get it......but I am one of those people who believes he can take on Microsoft with Amiga OS and win! YES! in this Day and age right now.
For some reason people always misunderstand a statement like that and think:
"You think you can take on WindowsXP with AmigaOS 3.1? Hardee Har har....your insane!.....and you think You can take on a Pentium 4 with an OLD custom chipset? HArdee Har har! Your insane"
and the answer is NO........Im speaking of a Modern day Equivalent Amiga with OS 3.6 (or OS 5.2) and a Modern XBOX beating custom Chipset..that can emulate 4 XBOX at once.....but wont come with that capability out of the Box......only with the capability of emulating 2.
Completely fascinate people in the way it looks and works.
All for the Price of $600....being a Full blown computer and Game machine HDTV Component and S-Video out a Native, DVD,VCD,CD+G,PhotoCD, QuickTime DIVX, PhotoJPG and more....able to boot from these kinds of discs, to be viewed immediately, just like a CD32' VCD, AudioCD, CD+G capability and VLM (Jeff Minters Virtual Light Machine type Visuals).....4 joypad ports as standard (Non USB).....and more which I wont mention)
To me Any machine that has anything less of what I mentioned and is released as an "Amiga" today.......is NO Amiga.....its just a Computer with the name slapped on. A nice comparable machine to PC's and Macs it may be........but for that...I would rather get a Mac..which is safer buy and is more established. Simply becaue that kind of "Amiga" will not succeed or make a dent in this day and age.
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The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it. :lol:
If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.
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bhoggett wrote:
The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it. :lol:
Now that is one true thing. I had my amiga stashed away during some renovation of my house. All that time a couldn't use it. Perhaps that is the closest what I got to feeling a complete starved junky.
Anyway, about that responsiveness; Why does my amiga freeze when I hold the mouse button down. Only to come back alive on release. Is this an amiga thing? Or do I have a crap setup ;-).
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@ leirbag28: hear hear (mostly:-)
What's with you people? For Pete's sake this is an AMIGA site, no? I don't come here to hear why Windoze or anything else is or might be better than Miggy (of course everything has to be taken with a grain of salt; ie if somebody claims that they can run Quake on their Miggy at 1024x756 at 100 fps that has to raise some eyebrows). Let's some Microshaft site do that. I use a Windoze box everyday, I work on them, I put them together for people. Been doing that for years. Still don't like them. Not because I don't like Microshaft (that's another story) but because of the way Windoze works (or doesn't;-). True, it allows one to do more things but not necessarily better and only because of it's market share. It's easy to throw more RAM or a faster CPU in the computer and call it "better". But is it? A computer can do billions of operations a second but it's all useless if it doesn't do what you want it to. Many people still find value in their Miggies and software and more power to them. And I think that's what this site is about. Saying "ohh, but Windoze (or whatever) does that better" is no good. It serves no purpose other than flamewar. We shouldn't allow ourselves fall for such things. If you think Windoze is better, great for you. Use it but do not try to tell me that because that is not why I am here.
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bhoggett wrote:
The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it. :lol:
If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.
Didnt the amiga come out about the same time crack cocaine took over washington DC? Maybe this has something to do with it.
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bhoggett wrote:
If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.
But doesn't that give a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside? :-D
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Sad really can`t agree with him. My G-3/600MHZ Pegasos2 running Mplayer on MorphOS, plays Divx video, that my Athlon 1GHZ WinXP locks up and can`t handle.
Just don't run DIVX-HD on G3 processor.
Cheaper is not always better. Apple makes the switch to jump on the money train. Eating their own words that the PPC is better. Sony doesn`t seem to want to switch. They seem to produce tons of PPC machines that sell less than $150. One word "CELL"
Pitiful VMX performance (e.g. Alias cloth simulation). Hence SJ’s statement on Cell being less effective than G5.
Refer
http://www.research.ibm.com/cell/whitepapers/alias_cloth.pdf
Using 8-way SPU’s 5 time over 1-way Pentium IV is unwised since this didn’t factor in Intel’s Tigerton.
In "Porting to the Cell Architecture"
Porting to the Cell Architecture
The most notable features of the Cell processor architecture are the IBM® Power-based RISC
CPU core (PPE), the 8 SIMD vector units (SPEs) and the impressive bandwidth that can be
leveraged to obtain maximum performance from the architecture.
In order to port the prototype cloth simulator to the Cell processor, the code and data structures
had to be restructured. First, changes had to be made to allow for parallelization of the algorithm(1).
Even for more conventional multi-core targets, this is a challenging process. With the Cell
architecture, there is the additional requirement to manage memory transfers between the main
processor (the PPE) and the SPEs. Second, where feasible, scalar code was re-written to take
advantage of the vector support in both the PPE and the SIMD units.
It seems that Pentium IV’s code was not optimized, since the original code needed to be restructured for vectorization and parallelization i.e.
such optimizations also benefit Pentium IV side (1) i.e. for SSE2/SSE3 and SMT.
In Alias|Wavefront Maya 6.0 Zoo Render benchmarks, Opteron @2Ghz easily beats Intel Nocona Xeon @3.4 GHz. In most cases, Yonah is clock to clock similar to Athlon 64 X2.
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You know... one thing that amazes me is that the fanatics will start off saying how fast and responsive and powerful their Amiga with an 030 (powered by a squirrel in a cage) processor is, and then will use Cell processors or some other incredibly overpriced -yet obsolete by the time it is mass marketable- CPU as justification for sticking with PPC tech.
Reality:
AmigaOS ported and running native on a $300 PC would run circles around any PowerPC alternative currently available.
A specifically chosen aftermarket Amiga seller (maybe one on each continent) could build a single system based around a specific motherboard and gfx chip combo specified by Hyperion, and the hardware support issues would be gone. Future upgrades and additional gfx card alternatives could be handled via RTG drivers released for the specific cards. The Amiga 1000/500/2000/3000/1200/4000 did not support a vast lineup of gfx cards. Commodore did not sell motherboards stand alone unless it was a replacement part. With the price of PC hardware being as low as it is, you could replace a motherboard 4 or 5 times for the cost of a single PPC A1.
It is really simple. An official Amiga x86 package is selected and released. It comes with everything in the box to work when you plug it in. It could have a custom case, or there could even be multiple solutions released...IE: an A1200 style system with a fully integrated motherboard and a big box system with the supported gfx card on a high speed pci or agp bus.
Upgraded gfx cards could come later as drivers are written for newer hardware. Amiga dealers could sell the off the shelf PC GFX cards at the same price as the PC dealer + a nominal fee for the driver. You would not have to support every chipset on the planet. The systems would be low cost and Amiga users could purchase them for $500 or less, loaded and ready to go. Since the hardware would be bog standard PC stuff, if a user desired to purchase the hardware and build their own system, all they would need to do is buy the OS. If they are upset because their Funkytronic xs5000 gfx card is not supported, they will have to deal with it. AmigaOS 3.1 did not support anything but AGA/ECS. At least OS4 has RTG built in for future expansion. The reality is, the prebuilt system will be just as cheap as do-it-yourself because the Amiga builder will be buying the components at an OEM price. He can sell it and make a profit without killing the consumer. Lot of successful PC companies started this way...Dell comes to mind.
Some people will immediately scream WHAT ABOUT PIRACY?!?
Well...newsflash! Piracy may or may not happen...it probably will to some degree. The fact is, if you sell 100,000 copies of OS4 and 10,000 are pirated, you have lost some money, but it is still better than selling 5,000 copies with no piracy. In all likelihood the same number will be pirated regardless. The l33t h4xX0rZ will be l33t h4xX0rZ regardless. The difference in piracy numbers will be nominal...the difference in sales will not be.
100% of new users could not possibly care less about what CPU the computer uses. They just want it to work and work well. An x86 Amiga could and would work well.
80% of Amiga users would immediately be happy with this solution. They would have a fast an powerful Amiga.
10% of Amiga users would be happy with this solution once they used it and saw how fast/powerful it is.
10% will not be happy unless Jesus raises Jay Miner from the dead so he can design a new Amiga complete with new custom chips, that is then built by CBM/Amiga at their plant in Germany using chips fabricated by MOS technologies.
That is the truth as I see it.
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Commodore did not sell motherboards stand alone unless it was a replacement part.
Actually as someone who bought thousands of motherboards from Commodore, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point, however everything else is pretty much right on.
-Tig
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Tigger wrote:
Commodore did not sell motherboards stand alone unless it was a replacement part.
Actually as someone who bought thousands of motherboards from Commodore, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point, however everything else is pretty much right on.
-Tig
I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or trying to say) about the motherboards.
There were not 500 different motherboards. Sure there were revisions, but they were the same motherboards with bug fixes...just replacement parts. There were a couple of exceptions such as the short lived A3000 030/16. You would not buy a new motherboard from CBM to put in your A3000 because it was a huge upgrade. You might replace the buster because of flaws in the original. There was never a "WoW! I gotta run out and buy that new motherboard for my Amiga 500!"
Nor would you buy an Amiga motherboard to install it in the new case from brand-X and build your own...unless you were a hardware hacker. It was not like PC's today.
I doubt you ever had to install new drivers because you changed motherboards.
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Have to agree with A3KOne about x86 amigas.
edit- actually, I know a lot of people these days whos home computers are mostly just for fun. People who work all day with windows, and don't really want/need to use windows when they go home at night. Some of these friends still turn on their old classic Amigas just to play and tinker. I asked one of my friends why he used his A3000 in this fashion, instead of his all powerful PC sitting right next to it, and he just said "nah, windows: use it all day". I think these people would be happy with an x86 Amiga OS.
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I cant agree with Dave Haynie more!
As a bonafide C= hardware engineer, is there anyone in Amiga-land who can counter his argument with more authority?
It's kinda nice when it comes from straight the horses mouth isnt it?
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Responding to the apples and oranges of Amiga comparisons to PCs. Some people are just religious. I bought my Amiga long ago in 1985, after I saw it's multi-tasking, it's amazing graphics design software, and after seeing it genlock and realizing that I could use this as a great video editing and production platform.
We were told this is what the Amiga was all about. What passes for Amiga today is just an OS and those amazing capabilities have been dwarfed by others. There is no Amiga equivalent to Media Center or Apple's Front Row on the platform. The Amiga doesn't know what 1080i or 1080p is in hardware support these days.
AMD and ATI and NVidia are already doing what mr. R suggests, in that they have a 64 bit cpu in it's own native mode that does all of this stuff already. To say that it's not happening is just not really the case.
As far as TV stations using Amigas etc. They aren't using PowerPC based ones they used the other ones, I worked for several of them. But this isn't really happening anymore because they can't get replacement parts and they are all becoming antiquities thanks to companies like NewTek Scala, who did this stuff on the Amiga and now do it on modern PC hardware.
If the Amiga is to regain it's nitch in these areas, a lot of hardware and software inventiveness would have to happen. The old companies surely ain't coming back for something they have done elsewhere including ancient powerpc macs..
Aros is a great OS people need to write programs for it and innovate with it, if the spirit of the machine is to survive. Apple's new Intel machines are 4x-5x faster than the powerpc versions because the development is just that far ahead. The platform needs cheap cool new cutting edge hardware and a new direction, if this is to come back.
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Oliver wrote:
Have to agree with A3KOne about x86 amigas.
edit- actually, I know a lot of people these days whos home computers are mostly just for fun. People who work all day with windows, and don't really want/need to use windows when they go home at night. Some of these friends still turn on their old classic Amigas just to play and tinker. I asked one of my friends why he used his A3000 in this fashion, instead of his all powerful PC sitting right next to it, and he just said "nah, windows: use it all day". I think these people would be happy with an x86 Amiga OS.
You know, if done correctly, an x86 Amiga could turn the tables on Windows and do some of the same things to Windows that has been done to Amiga.
Think about it... implement Wine on AmigaOS and have Windows apps running in a windows compatible API...or make a sandbox environment where Windows can be booted within AmigaOS. It would be easier than UAE because there would be less hardware emulation required. With the bright minds in the Amiga community, it would be interesting to see a WINE port. I bet it would be cleaner and more usable than the Linux version. Amiga Installer could be used to take care of all the config issues so it would not be as complicated as the Linux version.
This would be important because the AmigaOS would, in a sense, be tied to the hardware. The difference in the x86 AmigaOS would be that the extent of the hardware dependence would be minimal... Chances are that if someone wanted to upgrade speed, a new motherboard would exist that would be 100% compatible. The only legacy hardware would be the gfx card. support for integrated ethernet and ac97 would not be a big deal since there are not that many commonly used chipsets. When the time approaches when a significant speed upgrade is needed, Hyperion or Amiga or whoever could find a motherboard that is reasonably close, release a patch or two, and make that motherboard the certified Amiga board. There would probably be numerous PC hardware manufacturers willing to provide docs to get the additional business. Again, the key is quality and price, not quantity. There is no need to support every single motherboard combo.
If there is an A1200 style machine, that is even easier. There are a limited number of Mini motherboard providers. Amiga companies seem to like strategic partnerships and are good at making them. There would be an opportunity to have one that is worthwhile. Via makes good boards and they are reasonably priced. There are others...
To me, it seems insane to go the PPC route at this juncture.
In 2000, I was all for it, but now it is the wrong thing. PC hardware has advanced a great deal. Legacy ISA is gone. The PC is much closer to Amiga in hardware philosophy than it used to be. When the AmigaOne was first announced, the most common Mac was a G3 or a slow G4. Speeds of 1Ghz were rare in the PPC world. The AmigaOne was already behind, but not that much. The PC world was not that far over 1Ghz, either...2Ghz systems were extremely expensive.
In 2005, 3Ghz on a PC is cheap and the AmigaOne is still stuck at 600-800Mhz. Even Apple has bailed on PPC.
Hyperion said a long time ago that they were moving the OS to a much more portable language. It was said that porting to other architectures would be easy.
If that is the case, it is time to consider it. We need to swallow our pride and realize that the PC world evolved past us. It is foolish to forsake powerful, inexpensive hardware, for overpriced pocket calculators. Compare the Amy05 to the Dell Axim x51v, which is a 624Mhz PDA with integrated 802.11b, bluetooth, 256Mb rom, 64Mb sdram,16Mb video ram and is multimedia capable, and pocket calculator is not far from the truth.
I know the zealots are probably fuming by now... I used to be one of you and I would have been fuming too. I finally woke up and realized that computers are tools to allow me to do things. Amiga just happens to be a more fun tool to use for many. The OS is what you see and what you use...the hardware is only as imporant as its performance and price. The fact is that the current hardware options AmigaOS has are outdated and have little to no support. At least main stream PC hardware would have a warranty that would be easy to take advantage of. If you are in the USA and have trouble with your AmigaOne (which appears to be common), good luck getting it fixed. By the time you pay to ship it overseas to someone who can fix it, you could have bought another PC motherboard...and like it or not, the Amiga is a PC...personal computer. Some people have forgotten this.
Hyperion...please...if you read this. Move the desktop OS to x86. Read what I said and consider it...I believe that is the only hope for a successful return of Amiga.
edit- one other thing...I believe the only hope for success is if the system has the name Amiga. There is still value in the tired old girl, believe it or not. While Aros and Morphos are worthy efforts and nicely done, they will never experience the widespread acceptance that Amiga potentially could with the release of a new hardware/software platform, even if it is x86 based. Aros and Morphos are great for hobby computers if that is all you want. If there is any hope of a return to levels where major software houses port recent software, it lies solely in the hands of the name that started it all...Amiga...and in my opinion the AmigaOne and Amy type names need to go the way of the dodo. Any new hardware/software platform should return to the naming scheme from the old days... something like...Amiga 1100...Amiga 510...Amiga 610...Amiga 2200...Amiga 3300...etc.
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Mmm.. what i have to say to this is that all follow up incarnations of Amiga, are not real Amigas to me.
I admit, that people working on their own to get it to the point of beeing Amigalike, but there is no developed hardware to it.
Besides, what it would need is software like EA's Amiga Deluxe Paint etc.
To me, the Amiga died that very day Commodore went bankcrupt. From that point only if you were a diehard you sticked to the Amiga.
Linux is nice as an alternative, but it really lacks userfriendly support. If someone has no freaking knowledge about compiling he/she has to stick with what ever comes with the disk.
And the linux community, well most have the "read the stupid howto faq" attitute, which makes you hate linux pretty much.
In my case, i sold my Amigas long ago and have no software from the time (i had a lot). The only Amiga, i call an Amiga, would be the original Amiga. But then you have a 12 year old hardware (or older) and don't have upgrades.
Like i said, if you a diehard and you really love the machine and like to work with it, its cool.
But otherwise you better stick with a PC (or a Mac).
MorphOS is a nice attempt, but somehow its just teasing the Amigafeeling.
Don't get me wrong. Its nice to see development. But i believe there has to be a leading hardware before and even the Pegasos board is not a leap ahead of times, considering that PCIx is to replace AGP and even Apple says goodbye to PPC G series. :cry:
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@yester64
If someone has no freaking knowledge about compiling he/she has to stick with what ever comes with the disk.
Hmmm, and he/she can't use binary packages?
Last I checked I could install and keep uptodate linux without any compiling.
And the linux community, well most have the "read the stupid howto faq" attitute, which makes you hate linux pretty much.
Yeah well, at least the faq is there to read. Agreed some of the community are a bit rude, but I've always found help when I needed it.
Still they do have a point: If you're never going to try to solve the problems yourself, you're never going to learn either. And, if you're not ready to learn, then Windows XP is better for you... :-)
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@yester64
Can't really agree with your take on the need for Amiga hardware development, in order for it to be an Amiga. The old hardware, in most facets, has been superceded many times over, and what people seem to miss most is a damn good operating system. Needs for specialised harwdare can always be met with periferals, when the core architecture is sufficient.
The OS was fast and efficient. It was simple for normal users, and also allowed advanced users to take a hands on approach. It was not overloaded with vast amounts of code to autoconfig and auto cache your machine to death.
The old Amiga hardware provided performance and features which were unseen at that time. Furthermore, there was a lot of competition in the hardware and OS markets at that time. That level of competition doesn't exist at the moment. As the x86 hardware has had so much development, it would be foolish not to leverage that. I spoke with a microelectronics researcher, who worked for Intel last year, who said something equivalent, in regard to transistor technology. SiCMOS is not the most advanced transistor technology around, but when so much investment and development has gone into it, it just makes sound commercial sense to keep using and developing it to its limits. This is done to great success, regardless of SiCMOS not having the greatest potential of all transistor technology, but just because its so well established. Same thing applies to other technologies. If there is good hardware available, that already has a lion's share of the market, then it makes commercial sense to leverage it. o/w it's just too hard to compete. To develop a complete platform of custom hardware to compete with highly specialised multibillion dollar industries just isn't feasible. As there is currently powerful hardware available, which is so widely used, there just isn't the need (or the opportunity) for a custom hardware platform.
Furthermore, users demand compatibility as much as anything else. This is most easily and cheaply achieved by using a common basis for a new platform.
Plenty of people dislike windows, and personally I know a lot of ex-amigans who were interested in the idea of a modern amiga, but just couldn't justify the investment in specialised architecture. Just like Haynie said with his argument of a threshold for investment. If I could run a well developed and commercially supported Amiga OS on my windows box, absolutely I would, and I know a large number of others who would too (maybe around a hundred friends/aquaintances have said as much to me). Custom hardware just doesn't come into it. I don't care if it's 68k, AGA, Zorrow or whatever: I use the OS and apps, I look at the screen, listen to the speakers, and touch the keyboard and mouse. To my thinking, the experience of the OS is probably the most critical factor in making a computer an Amiga.
If an OS seriously outperforms others on the same architecture, with a good set of features, it could really generate interest.
Well, I know this has all been said before. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Actually, this is what I thought years ago, before the AOne was ever made. From what has been said on this forum, the AOne seems to be a reasonable platform in its own right, but one can not possibly say its a commercial success. I also seriously doubt that 'Amiga anywhere' will be raking in the cash either, and certainly doesn't do anything great for technology or users.
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Piru wrote:And, if you're not ready to learn, then Windows XP is better for you... :-)
:lol: :lol: Hahahaha :lol: :lol:
Actually, I really believe that intellectual laziness is one of the main reasons for windows success. If something doesn't work, just:
1) Delete everything and reinstall windows, cos chances are that windows has destroyed itself anyway
2) Buy all the latest hardware and software, cos 800MHz/256MB just simply aint enough to run a word processor
Hardware and software vendors just love the perpetual re-investment which is driven by shoddy design.
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@thecrow
Even my p2 266 plays divx at decent rate.
Yeah! Sure! I watch 640x480 DivX on my pentium75 too ;-P
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edit- one other thing...I believe the only hope for success is if the system has the name Amiga. There is still value in the tired old girl, believe it or not. While Aros and Morphos are worthy efforts and nicely done, they will never experience the widespread acceptance that Amiga potentially could with the release of a new hardware/software platform, even if it is x86 based. Aros and Morphos are great for hobby computers if that is all you want. If there is any hope of a return to levels where major software houses port recent software, it lies solely in the hands of the name that started it all...Amiga...and in my opinion the AmigaOne and Amy type names need to go the way of the dodo. Any new hardware/software platform should return to the naming scheme from the old days... something like...Amiga 1100...Amiga 510...Amiga 610...Amiga 2200...Amiga 3300...etc.
Which has been proven untrue by A1 unit sales. The "Amiga" market is not a financially viable market.
Dammy
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Which has been proven untrue by A1 unit sales. The "Amiga" market is not a financially viable market.
Dammy
Actually, A3kOne only said it would be necessary to use the Amiga name, he didn't say it would be sufficient. The AOne is not a product along the lines of what he was advocating.
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Interesting that Dave rightly complains (about PegasOS box and Amiga Oee) "They're both just PCs with PPCs. Nothing more, nothing less" and yet he in effect argues for sticking the OS into x86.
...which would make it just a PC with AmigaOS, Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh and calling him "lead" C-A engineer is giving him a bit of a promotion. Dave did busses and memory controllers and processor interfacing, but what made the Amiga more than a Mac or ST was the exotic ASICS it was designed with.
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boing wrote:
Interesting that Dave rightly complains (about PegasOS box and Amiga Oee) "They're both just PCs with PPCs. Nothing more, nothing less" and yet he in effect argues for sticking the OS into x86.
...which would make it just a PC with AmigaOS, Nothing more, nothing less.
You've missed the point of what Dave is saying!!! Why bother having all these cheap PC peripherals, and then connect them to an expensive underpowered CPU* via an expensive buggy north-bridge.
Just go the whole hog and get the whole system standard!
*You do realise the the G4 has remained architecturally unchanged for 6 years, just a few process tweaks to bump the clock speed, nothing more!! CPU technology has moved on... The Athlon64 and the new Intel Core chips are several generations ahead of even the best G5 (which has had little work done on it for 4 years).
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Hyperion said a long time ago that they were moving the OS to a much more portable language. It was said that porting to other architectures would be easy.
Yes... and, really, how small are the chances that they haven't tested to compile OS4 for x86 machines already? Would you have tried it if you were Hyperion? If yes, you know, they are human too... =)
To be honest. I think that everyone that objects against AOS4 being released on x86 would change their mind the minute they would see it outperform their PPC machine. And, really, releasing it for x86 wouldn't have to mean a cancelation of the PPC releases.
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bhoggett wrote:
The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it. :lol:
If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.
lol!
@thread
If I hear one more "...but the x86 has too much hardware for it, that means we'd have to support it all" comment I'll have to start knocking some heads, screaming doesn't work anymore! :lol:
THE PPC AMIGAOS DOES NOT SUPPORT ALL PPC HARDWARE EITHER...
THEY PICKED WHAT THEY WANTED AND SUPPORTED A SUBSET. Why, oh why, oh WHY would this be any different than AmigaOS on x86?
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Oliver: If an OS seriously outperforms others on the same architecture, with a good set of features, it could really generate interest.
Performance takes experience.
Also, speed shouldn't be confused with performance. What really matters is that it meets the needs of the customers.
What do Amigans want? An OS that runs in 1MB of memory while every PC has 256MB minimum. Does that make sense?
Start loading some *real* software on OS4, and watch the system bog down in a hurry. Start trying to get OS4 to do things like Windows, and watch the bloat pile up in a hurry.
God, I am so mad QNX was turned down. At least that was a *real* OS, made by people who have been doing it for years, and know how to keep bloat under control.
Boing: ...which would make it just a PC with AmigaOS, Nothing more, nothing less.
PC hardware today is nothing like PC hardware when the Amiga was in its prime.
Amiga Custom Chip = GPU
C'mon. Even game consoles are based on PC hardware these days, albiet with all the useful, high-level stuff stripped out.
T_Bone: THE PPC AMIGAOS DOES NOT SUPPORT ALL PPC HARDWARE EITHER...
Thank you. People just can't get it into their heads that an x86 OS is not legally required to support 50 different chipsets dating back to 1990.
PICK ONE NOW! Pick another in two years! There's plenty of them!
Sheesh. People don't know what they want. A realistic development philosophy and new interface guidelines whould be nice.
THEY PICKED WHAT THEY WANTED AND SUPPORTED A SUBSET. Why, oh why, oh WHY would this be any different than AmigaOS on x86?
Because x86 = Windows. Windows is evil, therefore, x86 is evil. EVIL I SAY!
So evil, Macs will be using it, soon.
Unfortunately, the PC industry as we know it is dying, and Amiga is convinced that they have to move to PDAs and cell phones to survive. Just more gadgets, really. No "Amiga" in sight. Just "content delivery," as opposed to "having fun making your own content."
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Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it. It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it. It may one day be better than OS4. They choices are all ready in front of everyone. It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. Dave is a legend no dought about that, but alot of people have worked hard over the past years to try to keep things going. If all the "neo-Amiga" companys said, the market is too small it`s not worth it for us to do it, we would still be sitting around with 3.1 installed. No new hardware, no new software. This topic has been talked about for years. None of use have alot of say in how to make it better (Aros not included). Dave Haynie has giving the community alot. It would be kinda nice if Dave could be active in some future development. Maybe a new mainboard, even a low scale 68060 would be cool. (Just for hobby users)
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Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it.
So why is anyone using MorphOS or AmigaOS at all? Because Aros isn't there yet.
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@ T_Bone
I use MorphOS because it is backwards compatable with Amiga 68k/WOS. I can`t speak about OS4, because I don`t have an A1, but if I did I would say the same for it. If more boards go into production I will buy one. If someone writes a PPCAmiga emulator for x86, I`ll download or buy it, because there are still some cool Wos/Mos apps out there.
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Nitro wrote:
Sony doesn`t seem to want to switch. They seem to produce tons of PPC machines that sell less than $150. One word "CELL"
Sony isn't selling an OS, or a computer. It's a videogame console. CELL is a lousy tool for a desktop OS.
Tools for the job.
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Nitro wrote:
@ T_Bone
I use MorphOS because it is backwards compatable with Amiga 68k/WOS.
I'll be getting one as a last resort, if nothing else works out, or I get sick of waiting, whichever comes first... ;-)
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@T_Bone
Yes Sony does not sell an OS or a computer. What I never understood is everyone says that the cost of PPC is so high because there isn`t a large demand for PPC. Yet there are millions of Playstations out there alone without PPC computers put in these numbers. Each with a PPC inside.
Intel was not always a cheap way to go. It wasn`t until years of progress from AMD that lowered the price. IBM will still have Apple as a partner a while longer. They sold their PC divison. There is not that many PPC mainboard companys out there. Could this be the time the IBM looks to Amiga? Maybe not, but MorphOS has about 2000 users or so. Now from the BBRV blog"It is hard not to look ahead to 2006 with a little excitement. We closed out the end of the year with our first orders for the Open Server Workstation and our first big (50,000 units)" That`s alot of MorphOS compatiable computers is it not.
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@Nitro.
As of right now there are a total of ZERO playstations with a PPC CPU.
The PS1 had a MIPS R3000A-compatible (R3051) 32bit RISC chip running at 33.8688 MHz.
The PS2 has a MIPS R5900 CPU core, 64 bit.
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Ok correction noted. I was thinking RISC for some reason
(Just a little general information, what is the chips that are used in the Mac's?
Unlike windows computers and the old Mac's that use CISC (Compressed Instruction Set Computing) chips, todays current Macintoshes use RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) chips. Hence we have the difference between the old CISC 680x0 Macintosh computers, the Quadra's, II's, LC's and early (three number) Performa's, and todays new Power Mac's, Performa's and clones. Today software is being written that is "Power Mac Native", so what's the difference?)
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Nitro wrote:
@T_Bone
Yes Sony does not sell an OS or a computer. What I never understood is everyone says that the cost of PPC is so high because there isn`t a large demand for PPC.
Ok, lets get something straight... PPC is not a CPU. It's an "Instruction Set Architecture" (ISA for short). This is simply the language the CPU "speaks" nothing more nothing less, it's a compiler option. What is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more important when thinking about running an OS is the PLATFORM architecture, this is what Operating systems are written for.
What you must remember when someone says PPC, they could mean any CPU that "speak" PPC. The ISA has little to do with performance (I know there are some issues here, but I'm talking about the overall picture). For example the G4 and the G5 are architecturally totally different beasts, nothing like each other in any way... they just happen to use the PPC ISA.
Now with all this in mind, the idea of porting an OS (lets say AOS4 for sake of example) from the A1 to a Normal PC woudl be much eaiser than porting AOS4 from the A1 to a Playstation3. The reason is that the A1 and a standard have a very similar platform architecture... the PS3 is something totally different, no one knows what's going on inside there and that's how Sony like it.
In the mid 90's the 603 and 604 line of CPU's were really great (they happen to use the PPC ISA by the way), but that was 10 years ago, and the G4 is still based on the 603!!! intel and AMD has pushed ahead using the latest ideas and developments to make new architectures which give better performance and use less power... Now IBM have no intention of investing in the G5 and Freescale are more than happy with the G4 (744x), ther are currently no CPU's using the PPC ISA which is suitable for a modern laptop, and with no developement from IBM or Freescale their usefulness on the desktop has come to an end.
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@bloodline
Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86. Scary.
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Nitro wrote:
@bloodline
Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86. Scary.
I should clarify that, if IBM and/or Freescale were to pump some serious money into their CPU products, they could easily make PPC competitor to the current x86 offerings. IBM proved this when they made the PPC 970 (G5), which was designed to compete with the AthlonXP (The AMD K7)and the Pentium4 (intel Netbust)... which it did very well! Now they need to compete with processors like the Athlon64 (The AMD K8) and the new Intel Core Duo (Intel Yonah)... so a new architecture is required.
Don't worry about the idea of x86, it's just an ISA :-) as I said before... it's nothing more than an option in the compiler, if AMD wanted they could put a PPC ISA frontend on to their K8 architecture and create a really powerfull PPC chip (ok, there are a few technical issues that would need to be addressed... the K8 is geared towards x86, but the theory is correct).
-Edit-
The Apple switch to x86 is due to this stagnation of desktop capable PPC chips. intel was chosen to provide the CPU's for the first range of x86 Macs because;
1. They have huge capacity, so no cpu shortages like Apple suffered with from both Freescale and IBM
2. They do great discounts for volume buyers ;-)
3. intel provide a complete solution... from the cpu, to the chipset to the motherboard design. Steve Jobs keynote address a few days ago cleary stated that intel had done the Hardware work on the new Macs!
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I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take. Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo. They big question is will they? Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM. If there is a stagnation of development of desktop capable PPC chips, like you said, then the only clear path for many of Amiga developers is to go to PC hardware. A smart move by Airsoft Softwair, as to develope in all directions with Hollywood 2.0.
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Nitro wrote:
We closed out the end of the year with our first orders for the Open Server Workstation and our first big (50,000 units)" That`s alot of MorphOS compatiable computers is it not.
It sure as hell is! Nice Job!
Unless they're running MorphOS and using Amiga applications though, it doesn't affect the Amiga userbase much. Does anyone know what these machines are being used for?
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@T_Bone
I`d say they have The OpenSolaris project, or Linux in mind.
More than likely none will use MorphOS. The Genesi plan was "ride the linux wave". It will atleast keep a bussiness going that makes hardware that can run MorphOS. Perhaps some of people that use these machine will try MorphOS.
This atleast is good for users that the hardware still be available. The Morph community kinda accepted this.
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Nitro wrote:
I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take. Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo. They big question is will they? Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM.
IBM aren't interested in the desktop (They never really have been!), they recently sold off their PC devision. IBM make "super computers", chips for others (AMD, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo the list is endless) and they sell services...
If there is a stagnation of development of desktop capable PPC chips, like you said, then the only clear path for many of Amiga developers is to go to PC hardware. A smart move by Airsoft Softwair, as to develope in all directions with Hollywood 2.0.
I don't see where the next desktop PPC cpu is going to come from, Apple couldn't either.
There really isn't any need to make a desktop/laptop PPC CPU... the companies which produce PPC CPU's are doing very well in the embedded market (Cars, washing machines, games consoles etc...).
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Piru wrote:
@yester64
If someone has no freaking knowledge about compiling he/she has to stick with what ever comes with the disk.
Piru wrote:Hmmm, and he/she can't use binary packages?
Last I checked I could install and keep uptodate linux without any compiling.
Yes, that would be fine. But the truth is, there are software were you don't get a binaery. Of course, you maybe stick just to whats available as a binaery.
And the linux community, well most have the "read the stupid howto faq" attitute, which makes you hate linux pretty much.
Piru wrote:Yeah well, at least the faq is there to read. Agreed some of the community are a bit rude, but I've always found help when I needed it.
Still they do have a point: If you're never going to try to solve the problems yourself, you're never going to learn either. And, if you're not ready to learn, then Windows XP is better for you... :-)
Thats not the point. The point is, that a system should be userfriendly. I've seen Linux for awhile and yes, its getting better.
But still, if it comes to the ease of use, windows is a better choice. Or you don't see linux as a competing system to windows. Then it does not matter at all.
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Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it. It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it. It may one day be better than OS4. They choices are all ready in front of everyone. It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)
And you have answered the "why" question.
Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...
OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros. The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
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A3KOne wrote:
Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it. It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it. It may one day be better than OS4. They choices are all ready in front of everyone. It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)
And you have answered the "why" question.
Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...
OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros. The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
Nothing would change for the AROS team, AROS isn't x86... it multiplatform! Actually the x86 version of AROS might gain some software if anyone made something for the x86 verison of AOS4 :-D
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Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86. Scary.
X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.
Dammy
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The Amiga was defined over hardware & software. So yes, hardware is also an issue.
The thing is, that there is only the system left. So no hardware.
Today you use, what everybody uses as a machine. So nothing special anymore.
The software is nice, but it is only intended for those who like use an modern Amiga OS today, not for the masses, which is contrare to the Amiga idea.
Personally, i think any attempt to bring something out and place it on the market to compete against Windows, will have a hard, hard time.
A transition to a new OS coult be done, if developer would port their software. Well, that mostlikly will not happen.
It is unfortunate, but i guess, thats why most people own a PC and nobody, except Amigalovers, notice that there is even an Amiga OS.
I think, thats just how it is and i doubt it will change.
Like i said, to me Amiga as a machine is death. As far as software i agree that the Amiga OS getting better and more modern. But it is only targeted to Amiga owners. Well, i guess thats fine. :-(
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@ dammy X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.
Ok you know what I meant. Instead of pancakes it`s waffles we should think about.
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A3KOne wrote:
The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.
Staf.
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Fats wrote:
A3KOne wrote:
The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.
Staf.
I don't disagree with you, but my point remains.
It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.
There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way. IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is. There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.
This same thread has been going on over on aw.net and Dave Haynie himself has been involved. I agree with pretty much everything he has said over there.
What Hyperion is doing is akin to this...
Imagine that computers were cars and the OS is the fuel...the Amiga was a car and fuel provider that was decade ahead of Ford and Chevrolet (or Daimler or whoever) and Microsoft (the fuel company). Amiga did not build a car for two decades and the fuel stayed the same.
Now Hyperion has upgraded the fuel but has made it where it works exclusively in an ugly car that gets horrible fuel mileage, runs really slow, breaks down a lot and has no one to work on it, and has horrible safety and emissions ratings, that no one drives, few people want, and fewer people can afford.
In the mean while, Chevrolet has built a car that goes really fast, gets great gas mileage, is reliable, cheap to repair, parts are readily available for it, and it is safe...and it costs less than half what the Amiga car costs. There are tens of millions of people driving it already and many are looking for a better performing fuel, including several million who were Amiga drivers twenty years ago and would love to relive the memory.
Hyperion is afraid that if their gas will work in the Chevrolet, people will pump it and drive off without paying for it, when the fact is that people who want to steal gas will steal it anyway.
They are not looking at the fact that so few people will buy their gas that they will not make anything anyway. If it ran in the Chevrolet, the amount they sell would more than make up for a few drive-offs.
Amiga on x86 makes sense.
I like Hyperion. I am a fan of their work...but...
If a fuel company did what Hyperion is doing, they would be the laughingstock of the business world.
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A3KOne wrote:
There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way. IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is.
Many bought pegs and use MOS because A1's were expensive/unavailable. I think many would jump ship and become reds if they could buy AmigaOSx86 for <$200 and throw it on their Asus board.
it would be hard to be a MOS advocate in an era where AmigaOS4 running on modern x86 motherboards kicks it in the teeth. it would be seriously hard.
There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.
We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.
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We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.
Good luck to ya. I think you're aiming for the impossible because the purveyors of these attitudes will go to their graves before they change their minds.
Just look at the justifications:
- It was the only reasonable thing to do given the resources...
So, given that you have so few if any resources you take the option which will bring least revenue, therefore guaranteeing that there will never be any resources to do anything else?
- OS4 is meant for embedded systems. It was designed from ground up for that purpose
Funny, that was never even remotely mentioned until Eyetech's plans bit the dust. So, an embedded platform with a completely unfamiliar API, requiring a completely new learning curve for developers, and also no Java capability? Seems a rather cavalier and reckless approach to me, specially for a company without the resources to fund the spread of their platform themselves.
- There would have been all these x86 trolls demanding to know why it didn't run on their machine...
Simply a matter of drivers. Supply a properly designed API and documentation and people will write drivers. AROS seems to work on a lot of motherboards, though of course not all devices are supported. Amithlon worked on a lot of systems too, despite having problems with driver delivery. Just supply a compatibility list and the responsibility is with the user to adhere to it.
- People would be able to use Windows or Linux instead and they would choose that ahead of AmigaOS...
Ever heard of multi-boot? Of course people will use other platforms for what they can't do through AmigaOS. If the apps/games appear for AmigaOS, I'm sure most would use that; if not, then at least the user knows he won't be crippled. This is already the case to some extent with AmigaOnes - there are a series of things you can do as a Linux user for which there is no alternative under AmigaOS.The only difference is that they have to do it on expensive unreliable and increasingly unavailable hardware.
Hyperion don't seem to know what they are doing from a business point of view. To the outsider, they seem to shift their apparent aims to fit in with whatever can be passed off as most plausible at any given time, irrespective of whether they have the resources or expertise to service the market they are supposed to be targetting.
So, considering Hyperion's "business plan" is most likely vapourware, and the whole original premise of bringing growth back through PPC desktops is in tatters, what happens next?
Dave speaks a lot of sense, and has done so for years, but no one's listening. Now some - a minority - are starting to ask themselves: "Did we do the right thing? Were we really justified?". Well, it doesn't matter any more. As Mikey_C himself said on AWN: "the train has left the station", and those who made the wrong choice are left sitting on the platform. There are now only two choices left: ( a ) insist that it was the right choice regardless of the mounting evidence that would suggest otherwise, or ( b ) give up, move on and treasure the memories.
If there is a problem, it's too late to fix it.
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Dave speaks a lot of sense, and has done so for years, but no one's listening. Now some - a minority - are starting to ask themselves: "Did we do the right thing? Were we really justified?". Well, it doesn't matter any more. As Mikey_C himself said on AWN: "the train has left the station", and those who made the wrong choice are left sitting on the platform. There are now only two choices left: ( a ) insist that it was the right choice regardless of the mounting evidence that would suggest otherwise, or ( b ) give up, move on and treasure the memories.
If there is a problem, it's too late to fix it.
I agree with all of what you said except for this last part.
One of the things that Hyperion supposedly has done is to rewrite the OS into a language (c?) that is easily portable to other architectures. If this is the case, it may be faster to port to x86 than to wait on someone to finally deliver a viable ppc machine... if they are willing to swallow their pride and do what it takes to make it happen...which I doubt.
One thing I have learned about the Amiga community, it is never too late. I would have thought you all would have gone away 5 years ago.
If they wait another year or two, then I might agree with the summation that it is too late.
I believe it will eventually happen. AmigaOS is not Gem or some other crappy OS...it is too good for it not to happen. It may take another owner or two and the community to completely disolve before one day we see a commercial or a print ad for AmigaOS...Hopefully it will not come to that.
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bhoggett, wot he said +1.
If only theyd ported to even a limited number of modern X86 boards, I wouldve gone out the next day bought said board and a copy of OS4 and had myself a AmigaOS-only-PC up and running that day.
I think there are more than a few other Amiga-folk who wouldve too?
To hell with hardware zealotry!
The Amiga cant afford it, anyone carrying on with that old tradition, should be shot down in pieces by the rest of the community for being self indulgent and short sighted.
On the other hand, if obscurity is what the hardcore element wants, they're more than welcome to it, just dont complain that your skills and knowledge are redundant in the modern computing world.
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Oh yea i'd def. been on that boat! (AmigaOS on x86 Laptop, not kludgy PAWS attempt stuff)
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coldfish wrote:
I think there are more than a few other Amiga-folk who wouldve too?
I would have. Actually, I probably would have bought a couple. I still would. If it could go on a laptop too, I'd be there, though I know it's not quite the same game.
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bloodline wrote:
Nitro wrote:
I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take. Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo. They big question is will they? Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM.
IBM aren't interested in the desktop (They never really have been!), they recently sold off their PC devision. IBM make "super computers", chips for others (AMD, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo the list is endless) and they sell services...
One problem, IBM Japan is a co-developer of AMD’s Yamato laptop project. IBM jettison its PC division was a good move or trick since it also jettison its related debts.
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A3KOne: One of the things that Hyperion supposedly has done is to rewrite the OS into a language (c?) that is easily portable to other architectures.
I'm not too sure about that. I have a feeling OS4 is just a bit too PPC friendly, and Hyperion will jump off a cliff to support this one CPU over all others.
Haven't they, already?
Politics ruins everything.
One thing I have learned about the Amiga community, it is never too late. I would have thought you all would have gone away 5 years ago.
I think it's too late for an NG platform without starting all over again. The Teron really is a bare system, so it's pretty much a PPC and nothing else. There's not much that can be done from the hardware side of things. As for software... hello? How about a nice, modern OS with a new Workbench? Yeah, I've got your "multiplatform" right here.
I mean, so long as the file system doesn't resemble UNIX. "Send it to /bin" is not my idea of a well-organized system. MacOS X and Be have failed to impress me in this respect. The low-level interfaces are still obviously just UNIX clones. We should be going beyond that, like, using good old Volumes again, instead of mount points.
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A3KOne wrote:
It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.
Maybe this is true for some vocal part of the AROS users. (Like people with blood in their nickname :-D). I'm a developer working on the build system of AROS and in the future I would want to use this work to make it easier to make programs running on all amiga-like systems, of course if time permits.
I also own an A1 and develop for AROS. I happily use both. Other AROS devs are doing the same with Pegasos.
greets,
Staf.
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Fats wrote:
A3KOne wrote:
It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.
Maybe this is true for some vocal part of the AROS users. (Like people with blood in their nickname :-D). I'm a developer working on the build system of AROS and in the future I would want to use this work to make it easier to make programs running on all amiga-like systems, of course if time permits.
I also own an A1 and develop for AROS. I happily use both. Other AROS devs are doing the same with Pegasos.
greets,
Staf.
Hey Staf, you know that I would buy an x86 version of AOS4, I've said it a few times on the mailing list :-D