Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: asian1 on April 05, 2003, 06:02:19 PM
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Boycott French Products (http://howtobuyamerican.leethost.com/b-db-boycottfrance.shtml)
There is a movement to boycott French and German products in US and UK.
Does this movement include boycotting Pegasos and MorphOS (from Genesi / Thendic France and Bplan German)?
What about AmigaOS 4 (Hyperion, German)?
:-)
On the other side, there is a strong Anti-American boycott movement in Asia & Africa.
If they boycott INTEL, AMD, SPARC, ALPHA, PA-RISC, MIPS, Transmeta (USA), ARM (UK), NEC/Fujitsu and VIA (Taiwan) CPU, what kind of CPU do they use?
:-)
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Oh dear. Now computers are being dragged into the middle of this lousy war.
Frankly, I think whoever came up with this boycott needs better things to do. The cash I get back from the Feds on this year's tax returns is going straight to Germany for a new Delfina.
In fact, I think I'll go out later today and stock up on French products. :-D
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Interesting to boycott countries for not going to wars. :-o
I think boycotting is a good way to get your point across. But I don't think it's fair or just to boycott companies from a whole country for what their governments decided. I chose to boycott some companies for THEIR actions, not for the government in that country's actions.
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Love the site in that link.. Fire-Button ..how can I have missed this.
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Humm
That's funny - GW Bush decided to boycott European steel before he even dreamt up a way to subvert the "war against terrorism" into the "axis of evil campaign".
bty - I'm for the war despite Bush Baby!
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I think boycotting is a good way to get your point across. But I don't think it's fair or just to boycott companies from a whole country for what their governments decided. I chose to boycott some companies for THEIR actions, not for the government in that country's actions.
its an evil idea
but i would probably boycott product made by the french government
anyone know of any? is it that socialist?
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I would feel more inclined to boycott any French products after the defacing of the war memorial, that was just sick.
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I think Hyperion is based in Belgium not Germany.
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I don't think there is a "movement" to boycott French and German products. 500,000 people in the streets of London against a pre-emptive war: that is a movement. If there was a boycott (other than mouse-sized), it would be totally moronic: these are only two voices in a much larger world-spanning group of equally critical countries and populations. Or maybe I missed the announcement that boycots of fries are now a reasonable alternative to persuading with arguments ;)
As to French-bashing: there obviously was a campaign on conservative (often Murdoch-controlled) US papers and Fox News, clearly targeted at incensing people. It appears as if the stories were primarily pushed as a lightening rod to defer attention from US failure: Blaming the French was much easier than taking the consequences of inept behaviour (the rumblings of Rummy alienating many Europeans early in the process) like a man.
> I would feel more inclined to boycott any French products after the defacing of the war memorial, that was just sick
Care to explain your reasoning ? I don't see any logic in that statement. It's like proposing a boycott of English umbrellas to remedy the problem of English hooligans abroad: you have a problem and suggest a totally inadequate "solution". Except that it is not only inadequate but very dangerous: you alienate your European friends and neighbours.
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i agree with the boycot on france the quality of french made stuff is below poor besides there a smelly bunch of backstabing cowards why would the french help with the war when they support sadam the evil murderer they make loads of money out of sales to iraq .What they done to the graves of people who whent to war to help france just goes to show what there like.
say no to france (http://www.notofrance.com/) :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Anyone for Freedom Fries or Mecca Cola?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein
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Belgium Veto (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/10/nato_veto020310)
>Belgium - Hyperion
Belgium was one of 3 countries (with France & German) that vetoed US proposal to support Turkey during war with Iraq (Feb. 10, 2003).
>Company - Country relation.
The company pay tax to the country who support / against the war. Many companies who operate in US is actually based overseas (ie old Amiga Corp in Bahama - 1990s)
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its ashame it takes a war to boycott french products...I mean c'mon ppl....
nevertheless I am no fan of bush to say the least.
there is an old saying, those who trade freedom for security, end up with neither.
we are in the process of ending up with neither.
my wife is a legal resident, but we are waiting on one govm't agency to send us paperwork we can forward to another govm't agency, and as a result of the delay, she is being harassed, she can't get a drivers license, work, nothing....
thank george bush....the country has gone mad.
but its 'necessary', people think...it is entirely unnecessary to harass legal residents because they were foreign born. That is a huge lie. What is necessary and what is convenient or cheap, or politically expedient, are different things. It is absolutley not necessary to harass a 23 year old woman, and wife of an american citizen. Thats @#$@#.
I want to use harsher words, but I'll just upset everyone....
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There is a growing movement in europe to boycott usa products , especially the oil companies...
And in the light of america announcing the 15 (all american) preferred companies to rebuild iraq, ranging from replacement mobile-phone technology to heavy industry , and ignoring any competitive offers from other UN countries;
I, personally, have chosen not to buy any products made in the usa.
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I, personally, have chosen not to buy any products made in the usa.
but why?
what have those particular manufacturers done to you?
i certainly wouldnt want people to stop buying my products just because they disagree with the policies of the particular government running the country that im in
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Hi,
Well what can you expect from someone from Tn.
I don't like Bush, and the whole country has gone mad!!
Phrases like this want to make me puke.
If you don't like what America is doing then go to france or germany. Just think then you could be a gay natzi.
Quite frankly I won't buy anything made in france or germany and now possibly turkey. I am American, I support my country and the troops and the war that they are fighting to free the Iraq people. If you dumb rednecks in tenn. can't watch the news to see what is really happening and let your political party thoughts stand in the way then watch out, because you may see foot prints over your back for getting in the way.
Have a nice day!!
Remember the original Amiga was made in America by Americans for Americans. It was someone from another country (India) I believe that we trusted to finance the project that finally gave up on the Amiga, thats what happens when you get them there foriegners involved with something good.
Smerf
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Hi blobrana,
Don't buy American products, we don't need your two cents anyway. By the way include the Amiga in your boycott, it was made in America.
Us people in the US feel we don't need the UN or any other of you wussy countries to help us, but you know what you do need us. We helped bail out france in WWII and we helped re establish germany, as a matter of fact we have generally tried to help every country in the world, what do we get in return the old finger wave and no support from the UN which by the way gets 85% of their funding from the good old US and is one of the things that we strongly supported until now. If the United Nations makes these rules for countries to follow and then does not back them up then what good is the United Nations, the United States gave the UN and saddam every bit of patience that we could muster, there is a time though to say enough is enough and go in and kick some butt when regulations are not followed, and thats what we are doing. America has woke up since 9/11 and we know that the rest of the world don't like it, too bad. These fanatics have played with America and now we are slowly roundin em up and putting em on the old meat hooks to say the least. We didn't want to have these wars, we wanted peace but some other pissant people wanted to ring our chimes, well they rung em and guess what we are ringing loud and clear, and we won't stop until terrorism is gone. Have a nice day and keep your two cents of purchases from America we really don't need it.
Smerf
and when you feel the rain of bombs on you, remember it's brought to you by the courtesy of the red white and blue.
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Hi Matt h,
Got a better idea than stocking up on french products, why don't you just move to france you look like a frenchman anyway.
Smerf
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Hi Amigamad,
Like your thinking, france not only stabbed us in the back but they turned the knife while they were doing it. Don't worry, I hear that the FBI and CIA have found lots of records of sales to Iraq by certian countries during the last couple of days, hmmm wonder if that is why old puddin is calling Bush and saying that he hopes our slight differences in this subject won't keep our countries apart (Ruskie and America). Oh well we will just have to wait and see how it plays out.
My vote "keep france germany and russia out of the rebuild of Iraq when we ask for UN support to help the new Iraq government.
Smerf
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Hi dietmar,
Not one of my American dollars will go to france or germany for a long, long time. I was thinking about buying a VW but bought a KIA instead since germany started playing there veto game on the US. As for water I guess I will switch to Culligan for water, all I have to say is pfffft to the french and germans.
Smerf
Original Amiga was made by Americans in America for Americans and accepted by the rest of the world.
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Its right not to let france or germany rebuild iraq how many people have they lost in the war none because they are not helping. they just want to cash in on the lives of our people that our risking theres. They just want to make money out of our peoples hard work with out getting there fingers burnt.as for computers that our now sold amiga, apple mac and the windows operating system most people use is american what have france given the world apart from peugot citreon and renault 3 cars which have just been anounced as the most unreliable in a survey. my french sagem myx5 phone needs to be replaced because it suffers from lockups sometimes. ill be buying a motorola or a british sendo next .
france can kiss my a** im not buying from the cowards. :-)
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I think the whole anti-french anti-germany anti-russia thing is stupid...its childish... makes me feel like saying 'hey government? yeah you government... can you please grow up!... you preach tollerance and dont tollerate other countrys choices'...
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Yes , it`s unfortunate that the US public and certain companies will suffer the effects of boycotts (and short-term Tax increases),
but there it is a peaceful protest that WILL be recognised by the government.
It is up to the government to judge if it`s current global policy's are really worth carrying out...
@smerf
The fact remains that 9/11 has nothing to do with iraq ; And as of this time it seems that there are no WMD...
It seems to me that this is an illegal war, who`s only good outcome will be the deposing of an evil dictator,
but , i do not believe that The allies attacked iraq for humanitarian reasons. It would be too naive to ignore all the dirty covert operations that the US government has (and is) done in the past.
However, if the US do not want to control EVERYTHING in the post iraq war reconstruction, and perhaps allow the UN to bid for the lucrative commercial contracts, then i may reconsider...
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Freedom fries ??????
/me allways thought it was just a bad joke .....
Whats next ? Rename Hamburgers to liberation-bullets ?
(sneaked in a german word game : bullette = meat-ball)
America the land of the fat and the home of the dumb ....
And then I read stuff about the US wanting to control IRAQ instead
of the UN, and even wanting to control who can rebuilt what.
Sounds pretty much like a colony, and you can just ask the
french how having a muslim colony will end.
Bin_Laden_replacement_breeding_ground that is what the Iraq will be.
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Bush and Blair are in a tiny minority. The Azores summit last month saw just four leaders gather out of the world's 191 states. Even on these mid-Atlantic islands they could not escape anti-war protesters.
Bush and Blair can not even claim to speak decisively for their own people, never mind the people of Iraq or the rest of the world.
Gallup polls in Britain showed only 15% support for a nuilateral assault on Iraq, and there was only a bare majority in the USA.
The war against Iraq is one of the most undemocratic acts in human history.
I leave it to a great American to sum up this war:
"With its banner of the Prince of Peace in one hand and its loot-basket and its butcher-knife in the other"
MARK TWAIN describing the US's first imperial adventure 100 years ago.
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Hi everyone
I am french...
So what Chirac is against War ! He is only an opportunist He know that 90% percent French people are against this War ... so he is against !!
About our commercial exchange with Iraq they are near nothing remenber there is an embargo.
(Major commercial exchange are with US & Germany you know Michelin,Dannone, Airbus, Sodexho, Vivendi-Universal, etc...)
Some intellectual said that Europoean got now a post-modern civilsation : war is no more the solution for us.
WE DONT WANT 21 TH CENTURY TO BE THE SAME AS THE PREVIOUS
It seems that some (few) US people think they are still in the 1950's : Right War for Peace
What a bullshit !!!
Alain - Paris - France
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Hooligan_DCS wrote:
Love the site in that link.. Fire-Button ..how can I have missed this.
...Indeed ! I too think they ROCK !
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mikeymike wrote:
I would feel more inclined to boycott any French products after the defacing of the war memorial, that was just sick.
What ?? They did WHAT ? I'm french, ocver-informed, and have not even heard about that.
Mind you, we have sick and deranged ppl in France, just as much as you have, I'm afraid
pX
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sorry my browser posted this twice
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@all the gun-holders here :
So France is doing business with Iraq, huh ? Look who's talking.
USA refused to control their mfg & selling of landmines and frag. Bombs, selling it to WHOEVER can pay good money for it.
And France shoul'nt be allowed to sell (crappy) cars to Iraq ?
The point in international business seems to be more about SELLING s h i t to ppl w/o KILLING too many of them.
Oh, and another thing. There once was a dream called France. It's now DEAD and buried.
Don't waiste your time bashing France, it does no longer even EXISTS.
France is now no more than just a rich country, trying to rob and steal other countries around, just like EVERYONE's doing. Bitter and pompous boutique-holders that slow everything down.
My only hope, as a french, is that it eventually *disappear* in the whole world scheme, for the better of humanity.
Countries... Pff... Earthtrash :-P
Come on, such concepts as frontiers, and even cultural differences, are IMHO unworthy of programmers, computer power-users and any technical intelligence. Happily the ppl working on ISS (http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/temp/StationLoc.html) are not babbling kids like us guys ;-)
pX
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@asian1
> Belgium was one of 3 countries (with France & German) that vetoed US proposal to support Turkey during war with Iraq (Feb. 10, 2003).
You got your facts wrong: these countries vetoed making NATO military decisions BEORE any war, not DURING the war. The military planning was vetoed because such planning was seen as creating facts before a final decision in the UN process. After the UN process ended, the veto was withdrawn and NATO equipment and personel from Germany etc. is now in Turkey (Patriots and AWACS).
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If I boycott US products it would either because I dislike that specific company (Macdonalds, Coca Cola)or because of the tradewar GW Bush launched almost directly after being"elected", he raised the tolls on steel and woodproducts. This not only affects Europe and Russia but also the Canadians and South Americans.
AND it won´t work because the US steel and lumber industry wont modernise their production and then they will get even more behind and inefficient compared to nonUS companies, which eventually led them to bankcrupcy. That´s what happened to our * shipbuilding industry in the 80s
About computer products most of them is manufactured in Asia (Skorea,Taiwan, Japan and China) so why care?
If you are against the war and against the Human rights abuses in China and want to boycott because of that then you simply cant buy any computers or electronics.
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@smerf
> since germany started playing there veto game on the US
There was no veto in the UN: the movement to vote on going to war with Iraq was withdrawn in face of three vetos (China, Russia and France) and up to six additional "no" votes, from Germany, Mexico, etc., on fear of loosing the vote. Dodging a vote doesn't look good in democracies, even if it happens in the terribly flawed institution of the UN security council. To counter that impression, the blame-the-French game started, to take public opinion away from an evaded vote.
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The statue of Liberty was imported from France. So by those boycotter standards should it be taken down or covered with a sheet/veil?
Really, I don't understand all this boycott goings on..
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i agree with the boycot on france the quality of french made stuff is below poor
So you aren't buying French products because they are of poor quality. I think that's called consumer choice, and not a boycott.
besides there a smelly bunch of backstabing cowards why would the french help with the war when they support sadam the evil murderer they make loads of money out of sales to iraq .
I take it you'll be boycotting all US products, for similar reasons?
What they done to the graves of people who whent to war to help france just goes to show what there like.
"They"? Last time I looked, the "French" as used in this context means the French government. Clearly it's absurd to suggest that everyone in France is anti-war, and I doubt that the grafitti was organised by the French government. I'm sure that at least once, there must have been some time when an individual vandalised graves in the US, so if this is the case, again will you be boycotting all US products (or indeed, any country where a grave ever got vandalised)?
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smerf wrote:
Us people in the US feel we don't need the UN or any other of you wussy countries to help us, but you know what you do need us. We helped bail out france in WWII
I never understood this tired argument of "a group of people [not 'we', unless you're actually a WW2 veteran] helped out a country once, therefore that country must agree with everything we do". The situation isn't the same since Iraq isn't invading countries - indeed, it's the US which is doing that, so it's entirely consistent to have opposed the German invasions in WW2, and to now oppose the US invasions.
Yes, if a new superpower emerged and threatened the world, I'll be glad to have the US on "my" side. As indeed I'd be glad even with no new superpowers emerging.
But this is exactly the point! - people aren't anti-war or anti-US because they think they don't need the US, or because they think it isn't powerful. It's *because* of the power, and that it is using this power to invade countries without any care what the rest of the world thinks is why some people are against it.
Your attitude of "we're the most powerful country and can do what we like, and you've no choice but to agree because you need us" is a perfect example of why people are anti-US.
and we helped re establish germany,
You were there were you? (Not that us brits can do much - I mean look at how the French defeated us in 1066 not too long ago).
as a matter of fact we have generally tried to help every country in the world,
That's the problem - I'm not convinced that the US' policy of invading countries, installing governments to their liking, and then crying ten years later when that country hates them is one that particularly works.
what do we get in return the old finger wave and no support from the UN which by the way gets 85% of their funding from the good old US and is one of the things that we strongly supported until now.
"Support" in the monetary sense, possibly, which is the "we're the richest country, we can do what we like" argument. This is hardly the first time the US have refused to go along with what the UN says (see http://www.cunr.org/priorities/treaties.htm (http://www.cunr.org/priorities/treaties.htm)).
If the United Nations makes these rules for countries to follow and then does not back them up then what good is the United Nations, the United States gave the UN and saddam every bit of patience that we could muster, there is a time though to say enough is enough and go in and kick some butt when regulations are not followed,
Well said! So, America should be punished for going against the UN.
and thats what we are doing. America has woke up since 9/11 and we know that the rest of the world don't like it, too bad. These fanatics have played with America and now we are slowly roundin em up and putting em on the old meat hooks to say the least.
Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11. It was someone who was trained and funded by the CIA. I can believe that this war might be about Iraq not following UN rules, or it might be about them possibly having WMD, or it might be to "liberate" the Iraqi ppl, or it might be about oil, but I think "terrorism" is the weakest argument for war. You won't catch any terrorists, and invading countries is a quick way to get lots more people hating you.
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I can understand that people want to boycott COMPANYS, or PERSONS directly involved with certain things. But I can't understand why anyone would boycott a NATION, I mean people can't help where they are born can they?
I think this whole discussion is stupid and sometimes I even feel the smell of racism.
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@blobrana
the war on iraq is not illegal, sadam is murdering inocent men woman and children for no reason these people cant say anything against saddam without a risk to their lives with sadam out of the way the people of iraq might have the freedom of speech and right to an opinion like the rest of us .all anti war people must be racist that believe it is correct to kill men women and children or are they just blind and stupid work shy idots. :-) :-?
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I think the best thing you can do is to boycott certain POLITICANS next election.
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This action has hurt many people, the world is happy when they have a place
to talk about it, the UN. They like to have my dollars that I work very
hard for to talk bad about the USA. I know that USA is not perfect, but
when they go and correct a country it is wrong, but when France goes to Africa
with there Army it is to Help? It's wrong for the US to sell soda and fast
food to France, but it's OK for France to sell Reactors to oil rich
countries. They like me to drink there wine which is good, but when I need
there help "USA" they'll vote no before I can explain why "UN". They're my
friends but with friends like them who needs a enemy. The British I know
are good people, They are helping the World, next time I buy something and
its made in England, I know that it must be good.
Last Note:
What do you call 100,000 french men with there hands up?
There Army
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oldman3000t wrote:
I know that USA is not perfect, but
when they go and correct a country it is wrong,
:-D
Oh yeah? So what is the alliance doing right now?
But that is different i suppose :-)
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f you don't like what America is doing then go to france or germany. Just think then you could be a gay natzi.
I thought this phrase was funny when said on the Daily Show the other night - even funnier to know it's actually used.
Still, maybe I will move there - I'm sure I'd enjoy the company of 'gay nazis' over ignorant biggots.
Quite frankly I won't buy anything made in france or germany and now possibly turkey.
Good for you! It's a breath of fresh air to see new ideas - this time a boycott for NOT going to war!
Spend your money on products that promote freedom and humanitarian ideals, like a new pair of Nikes.
If you dumb rednecks in tenn. can't watch the news to see what is really happening
As someone who works in the News, I for one say it's the last place you should turn to find out
what's really going on. (This applies to all stations... doubly for FOX).
and let your political party thoughts stand in the way then watch out, because you may see foot prints over your back for getting in the way.
Yep, I can see you've not let any political bias sway your statements in any way....
I don't, however, see the need to watch out for your foot personally.. In order to walk across my back, you'll have to take it out of your mouth first.
Siggy.
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Boycotting areas of the world is just silly.:crazy: :-(
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smerf,
I don't believe you are real, you seem like a cartoon character.
Nevertheless, your words aren't far off from what I'm talking about. These hate mongers don't just hate 'dictators' they hate most everything....
And who is going to get the worst of it? Not the europeans...the europeans have the luxury of being very far away...the people who will get the worst of it are OTHER AMERICANS....
McCarthyism is alive and well, we are already attacking our own.
I'm not worried about the obvious hate mongers like smerf. Ignorant people like him always exist, and are quickly marginalized. You won't see any respectable politician talking like smerf...they would be forced to resign almost immediately...remember Newt Gingrich, remember Trent Lott, they had to resign over much tamer language.
No, what concerns me, is people who had previously been somewhat reasonable people are now in a frenzy over the war. They don't believe in the consitution, they don't believe in due process...they are willing to let the government grab unprecedented levels of power, because they believe its 'necessary' for security.
Only, they forget, if people are so evil, then watch out for unlimited power...anywhere, even in the hands of government...in the end, government is made up of people, not different from anyone else....
more damage is done in the name of 'good causes' than anything else...what happened to restraint, caution, and good judgement....we aren't seeing it these days.
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As someone who works in the News, I for one say it's the last place you should turn to find out
Here, here. I wasn't planning on talking on this subject...but lets address it.
Fact: A mexican gets a state issued drivers license. Why? Because he knows how to drive and he applied...someone reports that to the news, and we get a big story.
NEWS HEADLINE: Driver's license being issued to illegal aliens.
What is really happening...driver's licenses are for driving skills, DOT is not an immigration agency.
But because of the war frenzy, and general hatred, it tries to become one anyway...
Fact: Legal residents now denied drivers licenses...Why? because the DOT doesn'tt understand the intricacies of the BCIS and how the 'out of status' levels that don't imply fault, and may, indeed be their own fault..
What the news reports: NOTHING
Don't worry so much about the news, the regular news is just a certain type of sensationalism that we are used to...but not any different from rags like the National Enquirer.
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@smerf
Not one of my American dollars will go to france or germany for a long, long time.
I take it that you won't be upgrading to OS3.5 or any of the next-gen Amiga systems? :-)
Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but boycotting companies just because their goverments have one idea is pointless. Plenty of people in the US don't support the war, and plenty in France/Germany do.
Completely one-sided views like yours will only give people the impression that all Americans are mindless Bush supporters with no concern for other people.
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Boycott other countries is absolutely nonsense! I would understand that u don`t wanna got to holliday to that countries-but not buying their products? I`m buying something `cause its good and I like it. Why should I change this?
War is never the best solution-but now we have one and its better gonna be a successfull one.
Stop that stupid boycott things!
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Hey Microsoft's American...lets show our glorious leaders what we're made of!
Microsoft = The Freedom OS!
Linux = some pinko euroweany hack
Who's with me?!
(and if you're not, well maybe that axis of evil just got bigger)
True fact: "Axis of Evil", originally "Axis of Hate" was coined by a Canadian- David Frum, former speech-writer to GWB.
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Both Mr. Bush and Blair have stockpiled WMDs in their country. And even worse, they both have nuclear bombs.
So, just for justice we should boycott all americans and britons :D
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f*** it man, boycott everything/
I wouldn't expect a boycott of all non-American produce to work once the population of that fine country realises they might have to start paying the wages to the people making them!!!
@smurf...
You are seriously warped, man.
:pissed:
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mikeymike wrote:
I would feel more inclined to boycott any French products after the defacing of the war memorial, that was just sick.
what is sick is sending 300.000 troops to kill countless of innocent people, regardless of missperception, when a team of SAS troopers could have wacked Sadam and his sons in 24 hours. that is sick. but you don't win any election campains on those kind of actions
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Hey everyone, the real issue is not with the UN but with NATO.
The UN was always a dodgy institution that rarely could ever get anything done. It isn't just the United States, but Russia too, and for that matter probably France, that couldn't ever get anything passed, always facing a veto from another country.
You don't think the United States ever veto'd anything? We may complain about veto's now, but we certainly have veto'd plenty a resolution ourselves. (and I'm not saying we shouldn't have)
the bigger issue here, is that NATO was always supposed to support member states, and NATO heretefore was an effective organization...but that ended over this matter cause Germany and France blocked the notification of member state Turkey, over this war effort. Now, NATO is a political machine and a joke just like the UN, and that represents a change, and a loss.
I really don't think anyone should boycott products based on their country of origin, and I don't think many people will....nevertheless France's economy is shaky with or without this boycott, and it looks like troubled waters ahead.
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These boycott sites are RIDICULUS
If USA people boycott these french companies that operate for most of them in the USA, if it has any negative effects it will be on the USA employees in these companies.
If these companies have to lay off people it will hurt nothing else than the USA economy.
BTW most of these international companies are "owned" by the people owning stocks and retirement plans.
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I already boycott every American and English product I can (especially CocaColla and McDonalds).
It is the minimum I can do to make this world a safer place! They won't pay their wars with my money!
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You don't think the United States ever veto'd anything? We may complain about veto's now, but we certainly have veto'd plenty a resolution ourselves. (and I'm not saying we shouldn't have)
Indeed: France has hardly ever exercised its veto right in the security council (the last time was in the sixties, I believe). Germany doesn't even have a veto. Nor does Japan, the second-largest economy of the world. Most vetoes, by far (and virtually countless), come from the US. In that sense, US diplomats have the most to lose if they sideline the UN.
Germany and France blocked the notification of member state Turkey, over this war effort. Now, NATO is a political machine and a joke just like the UN, and that represents a change, and a loss.
One has to be quite naive to believe that NATO isn't a political machine, especially in this context, when NATO was abused in an attempt to influence a UN decision (the US adminstration wanted to start NATO military planning during the UN process, two days (!) before the critical UN security council vote). It was a thinly veiled attempt to create the impression that the US had NATO backing before the ultimate vote. Which, as we now know, never took place. Contrary to public believe, the French didn't veto anything: the vote was evaded.
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what is sick is sending 300.000 troops to kill countless of innocent people, regardless of missperception, when a team of SAS troopers could have wacked Sadam and his sons in 24 hours. that is sick. but you don't win any election campains on those kind of actions
dont be stupid its more than just saddam and his son s that need to be got rid of if the people of iraq are to get freedom and what innocent people you moron there have been a lot of thought and skill put in to stop innocent people from getting hurt its there military that are getting wiped out your just spouting crap if thats what you believe.I support our boys and girls men and women of england america and all other countries that have the guts to put there life on the line for the people of iraq to have freedom.
:-D :-D
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@Dietmar,
the notification of member states in NATO was, heretofore sacrosanct...
of course NATO is political at a certain level, so is everything, but it has also been an historically effective organization, whereas UN is notorious for being political to the extreme in that it was rarely ever effective. Shall we say , it was once an order of magnitude more political than nato.
do you mean to suggest, avoiding the possibility of an 'impression' being created was a good reason to torpedo the effectiveness of NATO? That doesn't sound like a very good reason to me.
Notification of member states should have been sacrosanct...sure politicians will play their games, always...but some things should be out of play.
Now, with NATO, as with the UN, nothing is out of play...and its obvious that Nato will act as a 'collective'...only if by sheer coincidence allows that each individual state has the same interests...so much for NATO... it's done.
I think, that all the countries acted without honor to some extent. France and Germany for torpedoing the effectiveness of NATO just to avoid the possibility that someone might read something into routine notifications....and the U.S. for not demanding the UN vote and allowing it to be veto'd....
Now nato is a joke, the U.N. is (still) a joke....
It's not a good day for international politics, though, to be frank, I am more concerned about the damage going on now, internally in the United States...but that is for another post.
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pfff grow up guys, are you ten or something? oycotting a country just because its government has different views than yours is plain lame...
Most "French" products sold in the USA are actually manufactured there, do you really think that French companies charter boats full of tyres, yoghurts or razors?
French companies employ hundreds of thousands of Americans in their US subsidiaries, so you're just damaging your own economy when boycotting French goods...
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OK, I have stayed out of this war debate since it begun. Here is my view of things:
Many Americans seems to think that the US government have the world opinion with them in this case, and that France among others are some loners with a strange agenda. I am afraid that is not the case. The US president went to war without the UN's approval. USA has some countries with them (much thanks to alliances and agreements from the past, partly through threats, and they have also paid some good dollars to others for some support). But the rest of the world is actually pretty much against this war, and is against USA's initiative. Many would even say that the war is illigal.
I think that Saddam is a criminal. He is a danger, if not to the world, then at least to the citizens of Iraq. Dictatorship is never good. The world would be a much better place without him. My objections to President Bush's campaign does not regard this.
Since the second world war the United Nations has served as a security for the world stability. It has been a forum of diplomacy in which nations could discuss problems. It has been *the* way to sanction military actions when the *world* thought it would be necessary.
But the current US government (and it's few allies) went to war *against* the rest of the worlds approval. This results in at least one of the two conclusions:
1) The entire war is a crime against humanity, which is kind of interesting since the USA is the only country in the world that has been granted immunity towards war crimes. Neither president Bush, nor any of his generals or other officers can be brought to an international court to stand trial for their actions. The leaders of the former Jugoslavia could, but American leaders can't.
2) This is the new world order. The United Nations is now rendered useless and all countries can go to war whenever they feel it suits their needs.
This is *most* unfortunate for the future political stability of this planet. And it can not be made "undone" now.
If only President Bush could have managed to justify his war against Iraq to the world! Then the situation would have been different! But he couldn't. And his failure to do so (and by going to war against the will of the rest of the world) has in a very short time:
1) Damaged the United Nations. This is extremely severe to the future of this world.
2) Caused a crack in Nato. This is extremely severe to the post WW2 western countries.
3) Caused a crack in the European Union, which is bad for the entire future Europe.
4) Caused cracks in many governments. Some good UK ministers has even resigned.
5) Further damaged the stability in the Arab world.
6) Created thousands of new potential Bin Ladin's.
And he has crashed the US economy in the process.
It's so easy to raze what has taken so long time for the world to build up. Well, let's just hope that Bush's military forces actually manage to kill or capture Saddam this time. Otherwize he will propably just go to the Usama Holiday Resort to make plans of revange.
Please don't get me wrong on this. I *do* think that Saddam would serve this world in a better way as a corpse. And I *am not* against USA in any general way. I have been to the USA several times for both business and pleasure (California, Washington and Florida) and I really like the country as well as it's citizens I have met. This has nothing to do about that. But the long term consequences to the world from this campaign will remain long after the short term "profits" has been consumed.
Let's just say that I think that the world was a better and safer place back in Clinton's days. This whole mess is most unfortunate and I wish that it just would go away and that there will be a way to heal the world after this.
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BTW, US boycotts of french products because of the french opinion in this conflict is not a very good idea IMO. It might make sense for an American citizen that has been filled with President Bush's domestic nationalistic wartime propaganda. Sure. But to the rest of the world this is just a ridiculous. It will only be counter-productive and will add fuel to the fire. Nothing good can come out of this.
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@MarkTime:
While I have no idea what "notification" is, changes in NATO shouldn't surprise anyone. During the cold war, smaller countries couldn't afford to speak their mind, upsetting a careful balance. Now they can, and I think that is a healthy democratic clarifying process. For the US position, it's a loss of taken-for-granted influence, but they'll get over it. For France and Germany, the same waking-up process has happend in the EU.
> do you mean to suggest, avoiding the possibility of an 'impression' being created was a good reason to torpedo the effectiveness of NATO?
NATO has outlived itself if it remains a primarily military alliance, after removal of the confrontational situation of the cold war. To answer your question, both sides have bluffed and overplayed their cards, but it was a minor incident. The incident has highlighted divergence in NATO, it didn't create it.
> all the countries acted without honor to some extent ... the U.S. for not demanding the UN vote and allowing it to be veto'd
That was a sensible end-game decision to avoid total destruction of the UN (as would have happend if going to war after loosing a vote, openly violating the UN charta). The US administration is to blame much earlier, for its overall approach: extremely poor diplomatic skills, arbitrarily shifting focus, shady evidence, and, primarily, dissing the rest of the world by announcing the outcome at the beginning of the process: "if the UN doesn't take up it's responsibilty, we will, with a coalition of the willing".
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> Since the second world war the United Nations has served as a security for the world stability. It has been a forum of diplomacy in which nations could discuss problems.
The ironic aspect is that, inspite of all the gloomy talk about the UN being destroyed, this process has considerably strengthened the UN: for the first time, you have had massive public interest: for months, there was coverage worthy of presidental elections. Battles in the security councily, success, failure, hasty statements, suspense, second-guessing, instant polls etc. Foreign ministers are stars now. Before, nobody knew who was the foreign minister of France or England. What was sidelined before by bottomless lack of public interest is sidelined now only by intention. But the public is interested: terrific entertainment. That's good news for anybody who thinks that the UN is a good idea (and I guess that includes the USA, considering that the UN was conceived by the USA).
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Many Americans seems to think that the US government have the world opinion with them in this case, and that France among others are some loners with a strange agenda. I am afraid that is not the case. The US president went to war without the UN's approval.
United States seem to be using the old UN resolution i.e. to finish off the 1991 job.
USA has some countries with them (much thanks to alliances and agreements from the past, partly through threats, and they have also paid some good dollars to others for some support).
France has stated (in effect) that it will unconditionally veto any resolution that involves the use of force. Reason for this; France (and Russia) has trade deals with Saddam’s regime, which involves billions of dollars.
1) Damaged the United Nations. This is extremely severe to the future of this world.
Already damaged before the current conflict due to self-interest within security members e.g. France is more dependent on Middle East oil than the United States.
2) Caused a crack in Nato. This is extremely severe to the post WW2 western countries.
It will take the next top 14~15 countries(including United Kingdom) to equal United States in military expenditure. With such magnitude it's no wonder that the US was involve in this current conflict. US government does worry about US public option btw.
3) Caused a crack in the European Union, which is bad for the entire future Europe.
It only solidifies some major parts of the old British Empire i.e. United States, United Kingdom and Australia.
4) Caused cracks in many governments. Some good UK ministers has even resigned.
To be specific, UK's Labour government.
Let's just say that I think that the world was a better and safer place back in Clinton's days.
Appeasement diplomacy has it’s limits (e.g. WW2 as an example).
5) Further damaged the stability in the Arab world.
Israel/Palestine issues would be the brick that would weight down US relationship with Arab countries. It would seems that the cursed ‘old world’ conflict has bitten US.
I do recall (from history books), the original founding of United States is for people fleeing the ‘old world’ problems. I just don’t why US are involving such a mess (involvement started around WWII).
IF nations develop alternative to petroleum based engines, this ‘old world’ problems could be reduced i.e.
1. France wouldn’t have same level of self-interest to veto the new resolution.
2. United States wouldn’t have same level of self-interest in the Middle East i.e. wasting billion dollars in aid (a.k.a buying friends) or being involved with the mess.
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Linux = some pinko euroweany hack
Note that the Microsoft of Linux is an US based company i.e. Red Hat Inc. Also, Linus works for Transmeta btw.
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I thought I would never post political comments in a computer portal. I just couldn't resist with all the BS I see in this forum.
First of all, USA is not a free country (certainly not more free than most others). If I go to a Bush's political meeting and shout "You are a fool" or "You are a murderer" I would be arrested. USA has a political system that Americans call "democracy". It's different than that of many coutries. So what ? Is it much better having the illusion that you are free; free to buy and watch porn movies while having CIA over your head when using PGP in emails ?
The major concern is not that USA has illegally forced into Iraq disregarding most other countries of this world. It's that there are American people who can easily believe the propaganda and the lies a child could have spot. Do you honestly believe that USA media are more objective than Iraq's ? We are watching USA's media funny reports on war and wonder if we live in another planet.
Nevertheless, the moment USA government will declare "heroes" the paid soldiers it sent to die for unlawful interests you should know that the rest of the world will remember them as murderers. George "the bomber" Bush doesn't seem to care how many of them will die - why should I ? Don't take me wrong. I value human life more than anything but my mind and prayers are only for innocent Iraqians victims and people who lost their lifes defending their country from the intruders.
I thank God I am NOT an American.
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Being American, all I can say is I didn't vote for Bush. But, that doesn't matter since we have a "representitive" democracy, anyway.
As for boycotts, why is it people will bitch about foreign products because of a stupid firecracker show on the other side of the world, but the same people will still pay an outrageous $18 for a CD or $25 for a DVD? I don't think anybody really knows what boycotting is all about. (Stealing via Kazaa doesn't count as a boycott)!!!
BTW, I just traded in my all-American Saturn for an off-the-boat, 100% Japanese Subaru Impreza. Why? Because GM has reduced Saturns to total s*** over the last few years. Buying a Subaru is my way of telling the Big Three to improve the quality of their cars.
Of course, my dad just bought two new Fords this year, too. *Sigh*
BTW, never forget stupid people exist all over the world. The British are supporting this moronic war, contrary to the will of the people, after all. And remember that Canadian politician that got fired for calling Bush a moron? Come on...
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Hi toRus,
I thank God that you are not American to. First of all America probably does show some propaganda during a war so that just in case the enemy are watching are news channels they will be confused in what is going on.
Secondly no you won't be arrested for calling President Bush a fool in America. The police may come in and drag you out because you are making a scene but that would be all (in other words you would be asked forcibly to make like a tree and leave).
Third of all and see if you can do this in your country, if the American people decide that the President is not doing what they want or is exceeding his powers than there is a thing called impeachment, this is where we get rid of the bum. So far this has not happened to Mr. Bush and you want to know why, it is because we like what he is doing, completing the job that should have been done in 1991, freeing the people of Iraq, getting rid of a bully dictator that has tortured, raped and killed many people since his reign of terror. I said it before and I will say it again, the people of America have woke up since 9/11 and we don't like what we saw, keep your murderous cowardly killers away from our shores because certianly when we find out where they are from a rain of fire will come down on you courtesy of the red white and blue.
USA government will declare "heroes" the paid soldiers it sent to die for unlawful interests
Sorry dude but these guys are hero's they fight for our country by the Presidents orders, some of them may even think that this war is wrong since we were not struck first by Iraq, I don't like not being struck first but after 9/11 and seeing 3000 people go down with the towers, I have no mercy for people like saddam, a person who kills, and tortures people, and children for just speaking out against him. A person where even the generals who work next to him are afraid to give him bad news because they might get executed. Today while watching the news I saw to little Iraq girls smiling as they walked away from our "paid soldiers" with food and water, both girls were between the ages of 10 and 12 and they looked happy during this terrible time. This is what it is about dude, freedom for the children, people not living in fear. It is not about oil, it's not about riches it is about people that are beginning to look happy, smiling as we go through their city. Another fearful dictator that bit the dust. Can you spell g o n e.
If I didn't think President Bush was right, and so pissed off at the french and germans because I thought they were our friends, I wouldn't be on this column.
Hey by the way did you see all the red marks on that girls face from those rubber bullets. Its on display at www.msn.com, I love those Oakland police and how they put down those BS peace demonstrations. Tell me if these people are so involved with peace, why did they throw soda pop bottles and rocks at the Oakland police. Seems a little bit of a warrior type attitude to me
Smerf
I would drop a million bombs on a country if I knew that it would free their children and bring smiles on their faces.
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Hi Siggy,
So you really liked my saying about gay natzi's, I thought it was pretty good to.
Can't really afford Nikes, I am not one of those rich moviestar liberals that could afford such an expensive pair of shoes.
You have to watch real careful at CNN news with Peter Jennings.
Did you know that it is impossible to put your foot in your mouth, we took a survey today at work, and 0 out of 100 workers there could not put there foot in their mouth. So all 100 of us want to know How did you get your foot in your mouth?
Smerf
"Nikes are just to expensive"
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Hi blobrana,
Lets look at this logically, WMD is there some where, I just don't believe that a lying sack of Sh__t like saddam got rid of them.
Saddam was never a real treat to America directly, but indirectly he could have sold stuff to other terrorist orginizations who would have been more than happy to use them against us or against some of our other allies, like Israel.
Yes we will get rid of the evil dictator, but then the other good that will come of it is that the children of Iraq will have freedom. This generation in Iraq has seen to much terror to really salvage. Hopefully the next generation will be happier.
Smerf
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boycotting... bah
buy because of a products quality/features not because of dumb political reasons
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Hi MarkTime,
Don't know if you noticed it but we got the worst of it during 9/11. Now if this don't make you angry and you think of Perl Harbor, well that was nothing, the Japanese only attacked a military base, civilian casulties were really collateral damage. But these terrorists from the Middle East, the one who claims we are the great satan's came in here and destroyed 2 buildings and murdered 3000 civilians without even a warning of an attack. Yes if I thought our gov't was going overboard then I would say so, because I am neither Democrat or Republican, I vote for the best man running and this time I believe that America has to make a very strong statement, that we are no longer wimpy ass liberals that wil stand around and say golly geez maa they only killed 3000 people this time, lets wait till they at least get to 9000 before we tell them foul.
Wake up and smell the bombs, it is better for them to fall over there than over here where our children are, at least we try to miss civilian's do they? 9/11
How many children were on those airplanes?
How many military men did they take out in 9/11?
What was their purpose?
Where was their warning?
When are you going to wake up and realize that these people don't care about your policies they just want to kill you and Americans?
Peace Bro, a lot of good men have died and are still dying so that you can have it.
A corrupt gov't in America can be dealth with by impeachment, the people still have the power.
America I believe in it because our leaders have the best information network in the world and by that can make more educated decisions where I being the low man on the totem pole don't see everything that they see or hear.
Smerf
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@Wacoon
BTW, I just traded in my all-American Saturn for an off-the-boat, 100% Japanese Subaru Impreza. Why? Because GM has reduced Saturns to total s*** over the last few years. Buying a Subaru is my way of telling the Big Three to improve the quality of their cars.
Funny thing is, you're probably also promoting American industry more by doing it. That Subaru was more than likely built in country - and the Ford your dad bought is more than likely built out of the country.
Thats why boycotts are silly on products are so silly in this day and age.
I could boycott a bunch of products and the only people who will really suffer are some taiwanese workers.. The corporations that own the product may well be picking up revenue on my second choice.
But buying something based on quality is a smart move and the way to go.
Siggy.
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So you really liked my saying about gay natzi's, I thought it was pretty good to.
No, I was saying it was laughable. A subtle difference, then again I'm sure with all the money you'll save from your boycott, you'll be able to save up the sheckles and buy a clue.
Can't really afford Nikes, I am not one of those rich moviestar liberals that could afford such an expensive pair of shoes.
Charlton Heston appreciates your kind words and broad stereotyping..
Perhaps I was being a bit obtuse -- spend your dollars on a U.S. product that runs sweat shops in the third world to turn a profit.... Thats a far lesser evil - there, that's it...
Did you know that it is impossible to put your foot in your mouth, we took a survey today at work, and 0 out of 100 workers there could not put there foot in their mouth.
Why not get Geraldo can draw you a map if you have trouble finding either of these items ? If you need help finding your a$$ or your elbow, be sure to drop me a line.
Nice to see you're spending your time productively and doing your bit to help the economy. Now if all 100 of you will kindly pick up your brooms and go back to work.....
Siggy.
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But these terrorists from the Middle East, the one who claims we are the great satan's came in here and destroyed 2 buildings and murdered 3000 civilians without even a warning of an attack.
Right, but the Afghanistan war was to avenge that, remember? This is Iraq we're talking about. There's little or no evidense that Al Kaeda has or had any connection to Iraq (despite Bush's attempt to link them in order to justify the invasion). I read of one instance of a Bin Laden cohort paying a visit to Sadam. OK, then, let's bomb Iraq. I imagine the rest of the countries on his travel itinerary are quaking in fear as we speak.
When are you going to wake up and realize that these people don't care about your policies they just want to kill you and Americans?
Saddam had ten years to do that since the last Gulf War. Why didn't he? And, by the way, where are all those WMDs? I saw they thought they found some chemical agents, but it turned out to be pesticides. But I'm sure there are massive stockpiles just waiting to be found. But as to your point, why exactly do you think these people want to kill Americans? Surely nothing to do with our foreign policies?
Peace Bro, a lot of good men have died and are still dying so that you can have it.
Don't tell me Americans (you forgot to mention the women that have died, which says a lot about your mindset.) are dieing in Iraq to protect my freedom. Iraq never threatened my freedom -- their own citizens' but not mine. Iraq may have threatened oil companies' freedom to drain the reserves, but I wouldn't know about that. What I worry about now is that, with Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest having whipped America into a fear frenzy and pissed off a whole new batch of nothing-to-lose types in the Middle East, my freedom is apt to be further encroached on as the Homeland Security monolith (geez, what a monstrosity) gets geared up and self-fulfilling and as a new generation of terrorists is spawned by the latest US incursion. (Remember that Bin Ladin's stated reason for 9/11 was to get the US military presence out of Saudi Arabia, which he considered sacrosanct. We sure fixed that problem, didn't we?)
Well, it's hard to know what to include here, and it's all for nothing anyway, judging from what's already been written. All I can say is that those goofball Freedom Fries and "boycott France" ideas only show how utterly stupid Americans can be at times. (As if there was anything French about a french fry, and as if any good whatsoever could come of boycotting "French" products.) Not to say that there aren't stupid people elsewhere, but, you know, when Americans do things, they tend to do them on a grand scale. ;-)
-- gary_c
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Hi Smerf,
So far this has not happened to Mr. Bush and you want to know why, it is because we like what he is doing
So you are free to vote between Clinton (invador of Yougoslavia) and George "the bomber" Bush (invador of Iraq). LOL !! Now that is freedom ! Get a clue, you have no options. Regardless which part wins the outcome will be the same. Terroririse foreign countries in order to ensure your economical and political interests.
... freeing the people of Iraq, getting rid of a bully dictator that has tortured, raped and killed many people since his reign of terror
Nobody asked you to play this role and you certainly didn't have the right.
Sorry dude but these guys are hero's they fight for our country by the Presidents orders, some of them may even think that this war is wrong since we were not struck first by Iraq,
They are not anything more than paid killers dude. They shoot and kill on orders. It's their job.
Today while watching the news I saw to little Iraq girls smiling as they walked away from our "paid soldiers" with food and water, both girls were between the ages of 10 and 12 and they looked happy during this terrible time.
You should better watch a Hollywood movie because it would have more trues than what your media channels are showing you.
This is the same policy USA has followed for decades. Destroy a country then give chocolates to kids while bullish economically and politically the country (and its nearby region). Ask them if they have any choice but cheer for Americans now.
Wake up dude. It has nothing to do with "liberation" and freedom. It has to do with power, money and oil.
I never liked Saddam. I don't like me as much as Bush (or any other USA president). That doesn't give you the right to invade in another country, especially when United Nations and many contries oppose to this.
I love those Oakland police and how they put down those BS peace demonstrations. Tell me if these people are so involved with peace, why did they throw soda pop bottles and rocks at the Oakland police.
I am sure you would prefer to have them shot with real bullets, wouldn't you ? There is nothing like peace. if you don't get this, take your gun and your cowboy hat and start shooting at people.
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@takemehomegrandma
) Caused cracks in many governments. Some good UK ministers has even resigned.
no good ministers resigned only that tosser robin cook the person that once sent arms to a country which gave them to kids of 14 .and claire cook who changed her mind after her stupid outburst .
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@Smerf
I don't know how many people have to tell you and in how many different ways, before you will understand. The war in Iraq is not related to 9/11. It wasn't justified in those terms, and they aren't related.
Your man George Bush can freely say that, if he wanted...he isn't saying that....no one is saying that, except you. Where do you dream this stuff up?
You know Alcaida terror cells operated in America, trained at American flight schools, used American dollars to fund some of their operations...maybe you want to say the United States supports Alcaida too? We don't, of course.
The reason that argument about Iraw was never made, is because it isn't a true statement. For all the horrible things he did...he didn't do that one...gotta remember Hussein was part of a specific tribe...all Arabs are not the same, there are divisions in the Arab world...Saddam didn't happen to be a big supporter of Alcaida.
Do you remember Afghanastan...now there was a government that supported Alcaida...and you know what, we went in there and removed that government. Destroyed the taliban....And everyone supported that, including me. There was hardly a voice of concern, even in the international community about that.
But where did you get the idea, that we have a license to invade any country at any time now? because of 9/11??
That just isn't logical thinking, that is your emotions talking. It is up to America to make responsible decisions.
And I'll be very blunt...we bombed a civilian restaurant because we thought Saddam Hussein might be eating there. We killed children and women, and WE, this country, decided it was acceptable.
Thats very wrong.
Saddam Hussein deserves to die, and he will die. We will catch him, but bombing civilians because we have to get him today, we can't get him next week? That is incredible.
And, its wrong.
And, being a tough guy won't prevent deaths. Thats where you are wrong. Eventually, the Tim McVeighs of this world will be commonplace. That is, if we keep heading down this path.
I hope it never happens....you and I have the same goals, but I don't agree that this is the right solution.
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@smerf
well said .did you see the people of iraq on the news when the americans pulled a statue of sadam the scumbag down for them they were so happy they jumped on it smacked their shoes into it and they got a hammer and smashed his head off and dragged it up the street, a day before i see an iraqi driving a coach dragging a boat behind it with no trailer, all the anti war people must be well upset that these people are being given freedom and hapiness and they are very happy made me happy to see these people smiling and cheering . :-D
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smerf wrote:
Wake up and smell the bombs, it is better for them to fall over there than over here where our children are,
From my own personal point of view, it is better if bombs fall on someone else's heads than my head. But that applies to everyone, and it doesn't make one case more right than the other.
at least we try to miss civilian's do they?
Yes. Why do you think they don't?
How many military men did they take out in 9/11?
I've never quite understood the argument that military deaths are okay, but civilian deaths aren't.
Where this argument applies is if a soldier is invading a country and shooting people - it can reasonably argued that it is necessary to shoot him, where as it's unfair to shoot random passerbys.
But in Iraq or Afganistan, the soldiers were defending their country, so I don't think that makes them fair targets. On top of that, I believe many in the army (in Iraq at least) are conscripts.
The only way these deaths are less unacceptable is in the sense that they are less avoidable - if your target is an enemy tank, it's difficult to destroy it without killing the occupants. On the other hand, bombing a residential area generally doesn't have any useful value.
But 9/11 was not an attack on a residential area! If you want to hurt America economically, militarily and politically, going after the World Trade Centre, the Pentagon and the White House seem obvious targets.
So in summary, I see Iraqi deaths as unacceptable as deaths in 9/11, and civilian vs military doesn't come in to it.
It's difficult to know the scale of Iraqi deaths. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52531-2003Apr7.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52531-2003Apr7.html) suggests between 2000 and 4000 soldiers, and between 877 and 1050 civilians have died.
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I thought I would never post political comments in a computer portal. I just couldn't resist with all the BS I see in this forum.
You have not defined the BS specifically.
First of all, USA is not a free country (certainly not more free than most others).
Defined most.
If I go to a Bush's political meeting and shout "You are a fool" or "You are a murderer" I would be arrested.
IF that’s true, Green peace and anti-war-protesters should have been arrested “by the masses”.
USA has a political system that Americans call "democracy".
Point being?
Is it much better having the illusion that you are free;
Define illusion.
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Smurf: Secondly no you won't be arrested for calling President Bush a fool in America. The police may come in and drag you out because you are making a scene but that would be all (in other words you would be asked forcibly to make like a tree and leave).
I dare you to try it! Where I live, if you call a police officer on obscenity, they can legally haul you off to a cell for the night for "disorderly conduct". Also, to sue the government, you need the government's permission. I think it's a better system than anything else, but calling it "free" is a stretch.
Siggy: Funny thing is, you're probably also promoting American industry more by doing it. That Subaru was more than likely built in country - and the Ford your dad bought is more than likely built out of the country.
If you live in America, it's hard not to promote American industry. But...
The Subaru I bought was built in Japan and shipped to America through the Panama Canal. So was the Impreza my brother-in-law bought. His WRX came off the very first shipment of 2000 Subarus in North America. :-)
It's worth pointing out that many Japanese cars are built or assembled in America. Toyotas, for example, are mostly made in California. Many of the parts still come from foreign countries, though.
As for Fords, I don't know for sure. But the window sticker says that 100% of engine and transmission parts are "made" in America. They also give a percentage of parts for the rest of the car, but I forget what it is. Of course, that assumes the numbers are accurate. I don't care enough about Ford to research it. ;-)
Wait... wasn't this forum about computers? This war is nothing more than a huge distraction. Where's the news coverage for the 2004 elections?!
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@amigamad
You are too simplistic. The fact is, as I hate strong armed tactics, and the worst offender of all is Saddam Hussein.
For all the bad decisions our government may have made, it isn't anything on par with the type of cruel, horrible tyrant Saddam Hussein is...I don't feel sorry for him at all. Given that he needed to be brought to justice, what is the best way? Not *IF* but how...
The best way, would have been for the iraqi ppl to do it, but they never did. But, nevertheless I am reminded of the many other options that don't include bombing children at restaurants.
Is it OK to consider them?
For some reason I think of Nicaragua, I guess because its an example where we tried to fund Contra rebels instead of invading ourselves, but its a bit of a lousy example. We supported the Samoza dictatorship for 40 years, and then when the people of Nicaragua FINALLY got rid of their dictator without our help, we then set about to destroy the Sandinistas....a government that took the illiteracy rate from 50% down to 13%...had free elections resulting in their party winning in a popular vote as well, but still we funded the contra's forcing the government to spend almost all its resources on defense.
Well that isn't a shining example of how to do it either....but its another option to consider.
We talk about the need to stop the Hitler's of the world, but how would have we stopped Stalin, Lennon, or Mao, even with 20/20 Hindsight....anyone going to suggest invading the one billion plus China?
Or a nuclear force, like Russia?
Eventually we will need to have some solutions in mind that will work against countries that aren't almost completely defenseless, so we should think about it....in some cases we will have to think about persuasion.
And considering that Hitler was freely elected, God forbid, but what if we ever elect a madman? (no we haven't done that, I support our president, as our president, even if I don't agree with his decisions and will vote against him)....but what if we ever did, remember....a president doesn't need to consult congress before starting wars, he has absolute control. We keep removing all our safety nets, calling them loopholes, instead of what they really were, which is thoughtful checks based on a study of history and abuses that occur with power.
I'm not a liberal, but I will say one thing, I believe absolutely is true. People like Timothy McVeigh, they weren't a result of too much love. Tim McVeigh knew people hated him (or thought they did), and he hated them back.
hate breads hate...it doesn't make the world safer.
Go ahead and criticize pacifists if you want, a true pacificist isn't going to kill you, and in the end, its the people doing the killing that are the problem. I think hating pacifists is a bit silly.
I'm no pacifist.....I was in the Army myself...oh ya, no kidding....
I am just concerned about the pro-war fever, it's too nationalistic, it isn't tempered with caution. It's too one sided.
In short, its scary. But I will be glad when the war is over, and I do think, that one good thing that will come of it, is a better government in Iraq, and I am happy for the Iraqi people in that regard.
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...all the anti war people must be well upset that these people are being given freedom and hapiness and they are very happy made me happy to see these people smiling and cheering . :-D
You are happy you saw a few hundred people (many of them being USA troops and reporters) cheering on the fallen Saddam statue. Baghdad population is 5.6 million. I bet there was a better percentage of people cheering for Nazis intruders while they were parading in their countries. It's a miracle what a little propaganda and a few dollars can do. Those people don't have an option but cheer for USA soldiers. It's a bit difficult to act differently against those having the guns, isn't it ?
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hey, i gona buy amiga os4. i dont care where it comes from. its kinda hard really to boycott everyone for the missleadings of a few high level people. i mean, it was not the french people that made the choice, not to go to war / sell wepons to folks they should not have, their leaders make mistakes like our leaders can or have done in the past. sure there is always people for and against things, and when we live in a country ,were bound by that leaders rules/notions/laws etc.
(just an idea) uncle willi
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You right, I did see a bigger respond when the Germans went into Pairs. I
think France owns 8 billion dollars to the UE, they own billions to other
countries. I believe the USA payes 85% of the cost of the UN. I think that
the jails being open in Iraq today is great, I am glad that the 150 kids
could go back to there Mom and Dads. Thank you France for selling all those
good weapon systems, thanks you germany for those bunker, and yes to the US
companies which we'll find out about and do our house cleaning too.
last item, if you are going to let more countries into the UE, lead, pay
your bills, don't wait 3 years and let your other countries suffer, that is
wrong, you all work as one, as long as you think like France or do what they
tell you, except for paying your bills I hope. Don't worry about Africa,
were going to help them, after your done killing them.
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Hi gary_c,
Well lets see Iraq invaded Kuwaite, Kuwaite asked for our help to oust Iraq troops out of kuwaite, We did it, (oust Iraq troops out of Kuwaite), Usama Bin Laden (head of the al queda) says that he will attack the lowly infidels of America for even thinking of setting foot on Arab holy land. usama bin laden plans and pays for the attack on twin towers killing 3000 people FOR OUR ATTACK ON IRAQ, America wipes out Afganistan causing al queda and taliban to run like the cowards they are, usama hides. Now for the good part, America goes back to Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, ousts saddam out of power wipes out his troops and frees the Iraq people. Hey usama are you really pissed now, show your cowardly head because America is in a fighting mood and would like to get two terrorists for the price of one. Our President said terroists where ever they are we will hunt them out and destroy them. How come you liberal's aren't complaining about are troops in the Phillipines? they are doing the same thing there to the abu sayah. Oh you really haven't noticed, it's not big enough to bitch about.
Why do we have troops in france, germany, S. Korea, and Japan. I'll tell you why to protect their butts if they are attacked, no one complains about that. Let us draw our troops out france and germany would cry and why? because our troops spend billions of dollars in their country.
[you forgot to mention the women that have died,]
You know you are very right here, must be because I am from old military where women were not allowed in combat. Lets forget about our disagreements at this time on war monger and dove and drop our heads and say a prayer for these brave soldiers.
For those of you who think that they are America's paid mercenaries please say a prayer for them and their families anyhow, Thanks Smerf.
Now for those of you who think that I am down on the french and germans, thats good, I am, it is really disappointing that two of our most trusted allies abandoned us during this time. Personally back in 1991 I wanted to finish the job and get saddam out of power back then, I was willing to die to do it after what I saw in Kuwaite, and after what I saw during this war I still agree that America did the right thing, personally when I see some one that kills children the hairs on back of my head bristle, my upper lip starts to quiver and I want to fight, and kill. These innocent children have no political views, they just want to play and have fun and learn. It is what we teach these children which will bring peace on earth. I thought my generation would at least stop war for the next 20 - 30 years once the cold war was over, a safe world for our children, but you know what we always have some dumb a-- hole who messes things up and we have to fight again, no war is not glorious, it is a freakin mess, people get hurt and killed. Watch the news see what these people went through to please the rich and keep the Iraq rich, rich. I just hope this brings out that cockaroach bin laden out of his hole so that we can exterminate him and his clan of killers.
Smerf
Believe it or not I am not a war monger, I hate war, America hates war, but get our ire up and watch out.
History has proven "America hates sneak attacks"
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Hi asian1,
Guess I won't be gettin a new Amigaone after all.
That is really to bad because I really like my Amiga 3000, 1200, CD32 and Amiga 1000.
Hey maybe I can use Linux on my Amigaone, that wouldn't break the boycott.
If those countries boycott our chip makers, they can buy a lot of abacus's
Smerf
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Hi siggy,
Nice to hear from you again.
"spend your dollars on a U.S. product that runs sweat shops in the third world to turn a profit...."
This is also one of those rich people things started by the liberals, you know the news headlines a couple of years ago when vice president gore took boeing and general motors over to china to start up manufacturing plants there to save these big mega buck companies money so that they could shut down several plants in America and put thousands of American workers out of work, of course their justification along with gore's was why should we pay an American worker $21.00 an hour when we could pay a chinese $21.00 a week to do the same thing, gore really likes good business sense and the other country sweatshops.
"Now if all 100 of you will kindly pick up your brooms and go back to work....."
Hey after the liberals ran the goverment for the past 8 years the American worker options are to sweep floors or work at a hamburger stand and quite frankly I am a lousy cook.
I hear clinton is going to start a cigar factory, the name of the cigar is going to be monica sweets.
by the way I can't really boycott french products they are to expensive for my budget.
Smerf
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Hi toRus,
Hey dude, name one country that America has defeated that we still own and that hasn't prospered after we have helped them rebuild.
We don't call it terrorizing, we just like to defend our interests throughout the world. It takes a lot of goods from other countries to make this country run and be free and we don't need some dictator dickwheat from some small third world piss ant country messing us up.
"They are not anything more than paid killers dude"
No they are American's being paid to defend their country and keep us free, otherwise we would have a lot of third world piss ant countries trying to destroy us. You don't stay free without good intelligence and a good military force to defend yourself with.
"Ask them if they have any choice but cheer for Americans now"
Sorry dude but most oppressed countries when freed from a terrifying dictator will cheer. You know this is something every American watched today, the reaction of the Iraq people, we really wanted to know if we did right or wrong, this was President Bush's pass or failure day, if the people would of boo'ed our military then we would have known we done wrong, but since they cheered us and gave our soldiers flowers and tore down saddam's statue then I get a pretty good feeling we did right. Now don't tell me our news media made it look that way because they did show people that were mad about our bombs killing members of their family during this war, for these people I truly grieve and they have a right to be angry with us. This kind of stuff happens in every war, we felt the same pain after 9/11. Collatoral damage as it is called is regrettable, but shown that 95% of the Iraq population is thanking President Bush, I think we done fairly well in this war. Low civilian and American deaths has shown the world that we can fight a pretty good antiseptic war.
"It has to do with power, money and oil."
Get out of town you blow hard, I wil be the first one in line to impeach President Bush if this is what this war was about and I will probably have to fight with 350 million other Americans to have this right if that was true, it is sort of against our grain to strike the first blow unless we really know something is going on.
I sort of have to laugh at peace demonstrators, they are yelling peace as they throw rocks, soda pop bottles and bricks at our police, remember these police are just doing there job, they have families to go home to too, how would you like to have your wife told that you were killed by a brick that struck you in the head during a peace demo. Get Real. As for the red marks on their necks they deserved it, and no I wouldn't have used real bullets just a bigger night stick.
By the way how did you know I wore a cowboy hat?
Smerf
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@Smerf
I must admit I find your replies both amusing and confusing at the same time.
It seems (in replies to me anyway) to be continuous sprout of 'liberal liberal money rich moviestar liberal'
The one 'fact' you may have gleaned is that I do work in News -- this doesn't necesarily make me 'rich' (photojournalists don't work on that side of the camera). And 'liberal' seems to be a derogatory slur you use for 'people who don't agree with me' - I think I'm supposed to take offence at it.. but more on that later.
Whatever the 'liberal' government (correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the name of that party was the Democrats) did 8 years ago is no concern of mine -- I didn't live in America, and as such had no sway over their actions.
In your terminology that would make me a 'wetback' .
So any effect those statements are supposed to have are lost on me.. You may as well be calling me a 'Bandersnatch' for all the insultive value 'liberal' has (i.e. none)
Now that said and done - if can can work up from the son of coalminer in a land far far away, through the military and educate myself through University, then move overseas and manage to live a successful life (without, I might add, any Government assistance - I don't come from the 3rd world), then any fault with your own life is from within yourself.
It probably has very little to do with what those 'darn liberals' did, or those 'rich liberals' say or what 'that hoochie momma liberal President' did.
It has to do with yourself.
It's easy to point the finger and be angry at the world - but the simple fact remains that it's much easier to bitch than to actually strive..
As for Clinton -- who cares? Why the 'Leader of the Free World' couldn't get him some decent looking tail is more cause for concern than where he put his cigar...
Siggy.
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You are happy you saw a few hundred people (many of them being USA troops and reporters) cheering on the fallen Saddam statue.
That would be your claim in regards to "many of them being USA troops and reporters) cheering on the fallen Saddam statue".
Baghdad population is 5.6 million.
The real test, IF the people vote Saddam back in.
It's a miracle what a little propaganda and a few dollars can do.
Anything specific?
Those people don't have an option but cheer for USA soldiers.
Where does it say this?
At least the USA stopped their nuclear test in the Pacific, unlike France (i.e. Why didn't France detonate its nukes near it's own backyard (i.e. main-land France) instead of some else "backyard"(i.e. Pacific Ocean)?)
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No, what concerns me, is people who had previously been somewhat reasonable people are now in a frenzy over the war. They don't believe in the consitution, they don't believe in due process...they are willing to let the government grab unprecedented levels of power, because they believe its 'necessary' for security.
Amen MarkTime.
I don't believe in these boycotts. If a company makes something I need then I shall by it from that company...no matter where that company is located.
America tends to be a melting pot so what happens if your neighbor is has German, French, or Russian ancestory. Do you boycott them too?
I think it is time to grow up.
Besides France and Germany are two countries (among many) in Europe that I wish to visit one day. :-D
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Besides France and Germany are two countries (among many) in Europe that I wish to visit one day.
Ready when you are. Big house here. South-west Paris.
pX
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Ready when you are. Big house here. South-west Paris.
Groovy. Thanks for the offer. :-)
I suppose this thread got waaay off topic somewhere along the way and should probably be under general discussion/Talk-About..
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by sTix on 2003/4/6 17:14:01
I can understand that people want to boycott COMPANYS, or PERSONS directly involved with certain things. But I can't understand why anyone would boycott a NATION, I mean people can't help where they are born can they?
I think this whole discussion is stupid and sometimes I even feel the smell of racism.
Well said. A discussion with the content "my country is better than yours" or similar has no place in a forum like this. Maybe the administrators would like to consider closing down the subject.
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Four british people in france on a sking holiday were asked if they supported the war everywhere they went, then when there minding there own buisness four french cowards stopped there car and got out and attacked them with baseball bats just because they were british ,it just goe,s to show what cowardly scum they are if it was not for us and america they would have been wiped out by hitler. :-)
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France, by using it's right to veto USA decision wasn't doing
some declaration of war but using it's freedom of speech.
We weren't against war, unlike everyone in USA wants to think,
but just wanting to leave more time to the UN to check for weapons
for the inspectors there asked for more time.
USA used it's veto 4 times more than France did, BTW. We never insult
our american friends each time their gvt did.
Please note that for a mad dictator that's got SO MUCH deadly
weapons (if I refer to our governments announcements), not a single one was fired.
Another thing, USA if by far a more interesting ally for France IRAK
ever was, whatever the point of view.
Note also that D.Rumsfeld ratified in 1983 the cooperation treaty bewteen IRAK and USA.
France wasn't alone as usual. Note also that France was at war
with IRAK during the first gulf war, and at cold since then.
As for the WWII comments, I have ancestors that fought to make USA alive, going with Lafayette troops to help raising this Great country.
Finally, forgive my bad english. all I wanted to say is that many
people shoots Europe all time round, but the fact is, we aren't the
enemy unlike everyone wants us to be.
Just be careful, Propaganda might be the enemy.
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The war is no longer so much about the weapons but getting rid of an evil regime so these people can enjoy freedom.
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France, by using it's right to veto USA decision
Except that France did NOT use its veto ;) There was no vote. Germany didn't veto. It has no veto, on top of having had no vote. Etc.
France probably would have vetoed, given an opportunity. But many additional nays and vetos would have come from all sides of the security council at that point, when the WMD case was not convincingly made (it still is not, I believe ?). Blaming only one party was a smart and intentional abuse of the French, to hide the extend of opposition. The move was happily picked up by many US/UK media. Now it's virtually accepted as fact. The problem with the media is that war is very good for ratings, especially "Iraq War Episode II: The Return". That clouds their coverage (and ultimately their credibility).
Talking about TV stations: I read a very funny story in a newspaper the other day (The Guardian): Some shop owner in the US actually believes that his country is currently at war with France, after watching cable TV. If you watch Fox, that's almost understandable ;)
Read Story (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,932223,00.html)
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Finally, forgive my bad english. all I wanted to say is that many people shoots Europe all time round,
Not all of Europe e.g. Spain, Poland, Italy, United Kingdom and ‘etc’.
Note also that D.Rumsfeld ratified in 1983 the cooperation treaty bewteen IRAK and USA.
His mistake...
and at cold since then.
Not with the trade deals between Iraq and France sometime after the 1st gulf war.
According to Arabic News, France is within the top two trading partners with Iraq. It even beats Iraq's third largest trade partner i.e. Egypt.
Reference;
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/010418/2001041828.html
Self-interest rears its ugly head yet again…
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Except that France did NOT use its veto ;) There was no vote. Germany didn't veto. It has no veto, on top of having had no vote. Etc.
Refer to France’s voting intentions...
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amigamad wrote:
four french cowards stopped there car and got out and attacked them with baseball bats just because they were british
Hate crimes are cowardly displays of ignorance no matter where they occur.
Be it British tourists in France, an Egyptian shot in a 7-11 in Sept 2001, a black man chained and dragged behind a truck in Texas, or Muslim women pelted with garbage in the suburbs of Las Vegas.
None are acceptable - and we should all look towards our own backyards before casting stones.
,it just goe,s to show what cowardly scum they are if it was not for us and america they would have been wiped out by hitler. :-)
And we can go back to History and find Frances part in helping shape America -- and if not for Spain the ships wouldn't have been sent - and if not for Italy Columbus wouldn't have sailed - and you can go back and extrapolate ad nausium on into the ludicrous:
If not for Odin Hitler could have won WWII!!!!!!
(Any norseman can trace his family line back to Odin, and the Russians were decendants of the Rus, Vikings, and if not for the mistakes fighting a war on two fronts, then Hitler could well have won...)
During that whole UN debarcle I had two close friends visiting France -- Americans -- and on returning the only thing they reported is that they had a wonderful time, made many great new friends, and would heartily recommend any and all to go visit.
This 'France is the Anti-Christ' bullsh*t is getting really old.
Siggy.
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Hi Siggy,
You know for a wetback, liberal, and bandersnatch, you are alright. Enjoyed the argument, enjoy the boards.
Smerf
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Hi ottomobiehl,
Whew couldn't you have picked some name like dude or something short and easy to spell.
Anyhow seeing that you are from Montana (I love that state, fresh air and nice scenery) I was just wondering how you could possibly stick up for the french and germans, I have been to both those countries and have found the french to be arrogant towards Americans and seem to snub and ignore them and this was way before all this other stuff broke out. The germans are really snobbish and gave me the impression that they thought Americans where really stupid. Now sometimes with my attitude I thought it just might be me, but I have heard from hundreds of other Americans they thought the same thing of france and germany. Now according to todays news the french jerkoff guy says he was only doing that to make America think before they acted. What a loser!!! Now he wants to take part in the rebuilding of Iraq. france, germany and russia are now having a meeting to discuss how they can assist in the negotiation with America on the rebuilding of Iraq and what part should the UN play in this rebuilding. How about 0, zero, we didn't need your help in the fight and we certianly don't need there help in the rebuild. Yes America is a melting pot and I saw French American, Russian American, and German American all fighting over there. I did not see any french, russian, or german military over there. This episode of our allies snubbing us during this time really has me jacked. I still say boycott their products. The last thing I bought was a delicious jelly made in germany that I really like, very flavorful but this was before they stabbed us in the back. Will I buy it again, certianlly not. Will I buy my wife any of that great french perfume? not any more. Don't know what I can boycott from russia does anybody know what russia makes that I can quit buying, I really can't think of anything except tanks and nukes so that make it easy I won't buy any tanks or nukes from russia.
Smerf
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does anybody know what russia makes
Commodities: Oil, gas, coal, steel and other metals, chemicals and petrochemicals, timber products (wood, paper), food (fish, crabs), cars and trucks, launch vehicles for satellites, nuclear power plants.
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Greetings smerf,
Whew couldn't you have picked some name like dude or something short and easy to spell.
Biehl is my last name (it is German) and the ottomo is added to make a play on words. But you knew that already.
Anyhow seeing that you are from Montana (I love that state, fresh air and nice scenery)
I am glad you love this state as it is a beautiful state with many wonderful natural resources. Montana tends to be a friendly state and welcomes it's visitors. It is a very nice place to live. What is your favorite part of the state?
I was just wondering how you could possibly stick up for the french and germans
First I need to know what you mean when you refer to the French and Germans. Do you mean the governments, any specific company or individual. France and Germany are two large countries made up of millions of people and each one of these people is unique and individual. It is not right to group them together as a whole. I would not say all black people in America are in gangs and want to rob and kill people. That is just plain stupid and most people know better anyway. But when you group the French together like that and the Germans you are making stereotypes and that is wrong.
I have been to both those countries and have found the french to be arrogant towards Americans and seem to snub and ignore them and this was way before all this other stuff broke out.
It is easy to throw claims out there just to make a point without backing up that claim with facts. Maybe you have been to those countries and maybe you haven't. I don't know that plus the statement you made of the French being rude and snobbish is another stereotype that you maybe laying claim to. Stereotypes are easy to come by and it doesn't take a lot of effort to keep perpetuating that stereotype. We have to be careful with them too. A lot of countries stereotype Americans as fat, lazy, greedy, warmongers. Anyone with intelligence knows that all Americans aren't like that. We know that a small minority are like that. So we need to give the French and the Germans the benefit of the doubt.
The germans are really snobbish and gave me the impression that they thought Americans where really stupid.
They gave you the impression...by doing what? This is the danger of just making vague, blanket type statements like this. Perhaps you were doing something that made them give you this impression. Maybe they weren't giving any impression and you just misread them. By the way who the hell is they? I have a hard time believing that you met every German person and they all gave you the same impression.
Now sometimes with my attitude I thought it just might be me, but I have heard from hundreds of other Americans they thought the same thing of france and germany.
So you know hundreds of Americans that have been to "both" Germany and France. Or perhaps you did a web poll to ask them how thier trips were. Or perhaps waiting in a line you met hundreds of Americans who all have happened to go to Europe and hated France and Germany but all of the other countries were fine. I know I am nitpicking here but that statement is very hard for me to believe. Maybe you do, maybe you don't but there is a proof thing here.
Now would be a good time to point out that during the American Revolution the French were our allies and if it wasn't for them we would probably not be a country right now. During WWII it was the French resistance that rescued alot of our downed pilots and crews in occupied France plus gave the allies a lot of sensitive info concerning Nazi Germany and its war effort. I will tip my hat to the French for that.
Also the French and the Germans were out thier helping us during the first gulf war. The U.S. has a hospital in Germany where many of our wounded have gone. If it wasn't for Germany helping us out there we would have lost a lot more U.S. soldiers. I think Germany is very helpful there.
And finally, since indicating in my previous post that I wouldn't mind visiting both Germany and France I have had several German and French offers of Hospitality from the Amiga community. A global community indeed. Things ranging from, "you can stay at my house" to "when you come you must see this." To me this is not hateful and spiteful peoples putting down the U.S. or it's citizens. It is more a gesture of goodwill and friendship. The world needs more of that.
Don't know what I can boycott from russia does anybody know what russia makes that I can quit buying, I really can't think of anything except tanks and nukes so that make it easy I won't buy any tanks or nukes from russia.
The Russians are well know for thier Vodka, which is delicious.
This will probably be read by the blind but I tried to explain my side of story. It is up to you, smerf, to look carefully at all sides of the issue before responding. Something that can be hard to do. ;-)
Thank you.