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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Dr_Righteous on November 26, 2005, 10:46:29 PM

Title: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Dr_Righteous on November 26, 2005, 10:46:29 PM
Here's an idea that'll never be built, but I thought I'd share it anyway... The Ultimate Amiga Upgrade or UAU (pronounced wow).

Designed with the A4000D in mind, a single "fatherboard" overlayed on top of the motherboard... Plugging into the CPU slot, the daughtercard slot, perhaps even the ROM sockets.

The idea is to create a whole new high-speed local bus for the CPU to directly access PCI expansion, ZorroII/III, USB, dual channel ATAPI interface, scan doubler/flicker fixer, 16550 UARTs and whatever else one can think of to modernize an A4000D.

All this connected directly to the processors (68060 AND 604e) and memory. OR perhaps a G4/G5 processor to run OS4.

Obviously, this would require a new tower case to house it all, but it'd be one HELL of an upgrade!
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: kedawa on November 27, 2005, 01:36:18 AM
I agree...

...it'll never be built.

It would make more sense to just make a completely new motherboard.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Karlos on November 27, 2005, 01:46:43 AM
Wasn't the original amiga one concept something like this? I remember the idea of it attaching to the A1200 trapdoor (in a tower config obviously) in order to get access to the legacy hardware.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: adonay on November 27, 2005, 06:27:11 AM
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Wasn't the original amiga one concept something like this? I remember the idea of it attaching to the A1200 trapdoor (in a tower config obviously) in order to get access to the legacy hardware.


yes it was i am so glad they hanged that idea and build`t something new instead. You can modify old hardware all you like but you will always have performance loss somewere along the way due to the design. If not if you were to have everything on a card like ide sound ppc DRAM etc were is the point in the orginal hardware for keyboard support???"

@Dr_Righteous: this would most likely be to exspensive to produce but its a nice idea tho and you would also need some one to make it design it etc i dont see that manny in the amiga market able to do so and for what proffit.

Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Sparky on November 27, 2005, 08:47:41 AM
It'd be easier to just put the custom chips onto a PCI and board and access them from there ... can't remember the name of the company who were doing such a thing, it fizzled anyway ... just like most other things Amiga.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: adonay on November 27, 2005, 10:38:11 AM
that would be the inside out from "Index Information"  was all custom chips on a pci card compatible with a whole a1200

adonay :-D here (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=41)
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: MarkAshley on November 27, 2005, 10:45:17 AM
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone
wheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetonewheredoigetone

 :-D

And more importantly, could we get it working on an A1?! Just think - OS4.0 with a FULL A1200 custom chipset. Total backwards compatability.

I think I've just p1ssed myself.  :lol:
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: hppacito on November 28, 2005, 02:22:38 PM
Something does not look right in that board...

Take a close look to that board.... Where the decoupling caps for the CIAs went ?

Where is the power supply for the 060, I mean the regulator 5->3.3 ?, may be they get 3.3 from the PCI bus... A crystal is missing to clock the 060...

Look at the Blizzard 060 or so, you will see tons of logic... where is the logic in this board ???

(Unless there are loads of ics on the other side of the board... (btw, were do they got the original chips ?)  :-?  :-?
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Sparky on November 28, 2005, 06:01:26 PM
The reason it looks empty is probabl because its not finished ... project never got completed.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: DamageX on November 28, 2005, 08:44:10 PM
If it's ambitious hardware proposals you want... I say buy up some modern manufacturing equipment and crank out some low-voltage, high-speed 68K CPUs with large on-chip cache, integrated FPU, and maximum backwards-compatibility. Make some accelerators. Then make an AGA-compatible chip with scan doubler, SVGA, and 16-bit sound built in and make some new motherboards.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: KThunder on November 28, 2005, 09:33:00 PM
3.5ghz 68090 with 512k on chip cache
500mhz aga emulator chip with rtg and 3d acceleration
16bit 44khz wave table dolby5.1 paula
1gb ram
500 gb hd
free beer
all for about $150
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Doppie1200 on November 28, 2005, 10:19:09 PM
Quote

KThunder wrote:
3.5ghz 68090 with 512k on chip cache
500mhz aga emulator chip with rtg and 3d acceleration
16bit 44khz wave table dolby5.1 paula
1gb ram
500 gb hd
free beer
all for about $150


The free beer makes up for the lack of modern software. Who needs an internet browser when drunk! :) Hell, create anything that produces free beer and you have a winner.

But somehow I think the moment you call it an Amiga you will get into financial difficulty. It is a curse.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: coldfish on November 29, 2005, 02:42:36 AM
Something has always bugged me about creating a new computer architecture, then attaching it to old hardware.

It sounds a bit like to 32X add-on for the old sega Genesis/megadrive.

Kinda good as a concept, but the reality is you end up with a not-quite-new machine that cant-quite-do modern computing tasks and is held back by all the legacy dependencies.

And how many A4000's are out there anyway?
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: MskoDestny on November 29, 2005, 04:57:58 AM
Quote

coldfish wrote:
It sounds a bit like to 32X add-on for the old sega Genesis/megadrive.

Kinda good as a concept, but the reality is you end up with a not-quite-new machine that cant-quite-do modern computing tasks and is held back by all the legacy dependencies.

The 32X didn't really have this problem. The SH-2s operated more or less indepedentantly from the 68K. It's limitations in performance were mostly tied to efforts to control costs rather than compromises due to it's connection to the Genesis/Megadrive.

That said, things are getting kind of out of hand with these upgrades to classic Amigas. Some of the proposed upgrades (Dragon, ACK, etc.) are pretty much a whole new computer plugged into a classic Amiga. Someone needs to implement the basic Amiga chipset in FPGA and build a new system around that.

What seems to make the most sense to me, would be to make a PCI card with an FPGA implementation of the basic chipset (perhaps beefed up a bit for more modern stuff). This could be sold alone for AmigaOne users and the like (or even x86 AROS boxes once 68K emulation is integrated) or sold with a ColdFire or PowerPC board maybe in a passive PCI backplane setup with the processor on it's own PCI card. This would allow you to leverage the economies of scale of the Sonnet Crescendo 7200 if you want PowerPC. You could probably even rig it up in a classic Amiga with a PCI busboard and use the MMU to redirect chip memory and direct chipset access to the souped-up PCI version.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Dr_Righteous on November 29, 2005, 06:08:17 AM
Actually, I realized I was calling for a complete computer on top of the A4000 board right after I wrote that... Really I was just trying to come up with a way to get around the PCI/Zorro bottleneck. And then of course throw in all the other modernizations to help out the old gal.

Of course I'd really love to see a board built from the ground up... Custom chips updated and placed on PLDs. Of course that would require some serious reverse engineering of the chips... Or someone creative enough to turn UAE into hardware.

Oh well, a guy can dream...
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Dr_Righteous on November 29, 2005, 06:25:01 AM
You know, there may not be that many of us A4000 users out here, but I KNOW many of us have A2000s... And there isn't a PCI upgrade, nor many high-end CPU upgrades for it... Perhaps a CPU/PCI combo could work here? Hell, it'd only take a handfull of chips.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: coldfish on November 29, 2005, 09:41:25 AM
I have to admit, everytime I see an old junked 030, 040 or PPC based Apple at my local computer salvage shop I still think, "Damn, If only I could rip the guts out of that and put it in an Amiga."

I think I may be long past buying anything new when it comes to Amiga.

Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: orange on November 29, 2005, 10:02:10 AM
That reminds me of link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus) I found on slashdot.. interesting
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: bloodline on November 29, 2005, 10:28:44 AM
Quote

coldfish wrote:
I have to admit, everytime I see an old junked 030, 040 or PPC based Apple at my local computer salvage shop I still think, "Damn, If only I could rip the guts out of that and put it in an Amiga."



You could pick it up and run 68k AROS on it...
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Waccoon on November 29, 2005, 10:54:08 AM
Quote
Coldfish:  Something has always bugged me about creating a new computer architecture, then attaching it to old hardware.

It's a bad Amiga habit.  I see no point in tuning up and old Amiga when a brand new computer could be made that just feels like the old one.  It's cheaper, too.

Quote
MskoDestny:  Someone needs to implement the basic Amiga chipset in FPGA and build a new system around that.

Why?  Just emulate everything.  The only software that needs the old chipset is the hardware bangin' stuff, and that generally doesn't get a speed boost.

I get annoyed when people say that a "genuine" chipset would offer more compatibility than an emulator.  The nice thing about WinUAE is that you can configure it many different ways.  I have a much harder time getting OCS games working with my A1200 than I do getting it to work with WinUAE.  I wish WinUAE had a better config management system.

Quote
Dr Righteous:  Or someone creative enough to turn UAE into hardware.

The holy grail of computing is to turn hardware into software, and we don't want to get into a situation where the hardware is built, and there's no way to improve compatibility later.  Wrappers for a GPU even a few years old would blow away any attempt at an updated AGA chipset.

You know what I want to see?  An affordable floppy reader.  If I could get a $40 USB floppy drive adapter for my PC that reads Amiga disks seamlessly with UAE, I'd buy it instantly.  I'm very, very disappointed that the AmigaOne doesn't have some kind of floppy adapter of any sort.  That alone would convince me it's not "just a Teron."

Quote
orange:  That reminds me of link I found on slashdot.. interesting

I've always wondered... if you enter a teleporter on Star Trek, do you die, and a mere physical copy of yourself takes your place?

I sure wouldn't want to be beamed all over the place... especially when I can drive my WRX.  :-D
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Amiga1200PPC on November 29, 2005, 11:23:33 AM
Try the Catweasel.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: asian1 on November 29, 2005, 12:03:34 PM
Perhaps in the future there will be Accelerator PCIe card/Co-processor card based on PA SEMI Pwrficient SOC for running AmigaOS 4/AROS/Linux PowerPC/BSD PowerPC/MacOnLinux.

The card will be based on Slotserver or similar technology.

http://www.14south.com/

The connection to the main computer is through PCIe, Ethernet, Zorro (board with dual golden finger), dual ported ram or shared hard disk space.

Perhaps a card with dual bus design with jumper (PCIe or Zorro), similar to IRMA convertible:

http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPF-Attachmate_Irma_3_Convertible_143207_65
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: MskoDestny on November 29, 2005, 02:15:47 PM
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Quote
MskoDestny:  Someone needs to implement the basic Amiga chipset in FPGA and build a new system around that.

Why?  Just emulate everything.  The only software that needs the old chipset is the hardware bangin' stuff, and that generally doesn't get a speed boost.

Because real hardware is more fun. Besides it's obvious that emulators aren't satisfying everyone's desires. If they were we wouldn't see ridiculous prices on obsolete accelerators.

Quote
and we don't want to get into a situation where the hardware is built, and there's no way to improve compatibility later.

That's the beauty of programmable logic. Find a bug after the hardware ships? Just send out a firmware update. Assuming your hardware was designed with user-perform firmware updates in mind unlike say the Prometheus.

Quote
I've always wondered... if you enter a teleporter on Star Trek, do you die, and a mere physical copy of yourself takes your place?

There was an outer limits episode like this
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: daydreamer on November 29, 2005, 03:17:37 PM
Transportation as in Star Trek - I've seen Space Balls and Galaxy Quest, I hope I don't ever have to try it.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: minator on November 29, 2005, 04:31:18 PM
Quote
I've always wondered... if you enter a teleporter on Star Trek, do you die, and a mere physical copy of yourself takes your place?


I believe in Star trek the idea is that you are transmitted to another place and reassembled so no.

However experiments have been performed which do what you say (thankfully not on people!).

Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: bloodline on November 29, 2005, 04:36:09 PM
Quote

minator wrote:
Quote
I've always wondered... if you enter a teleporter on Star Trek, do you die, and a mere physical copy of yourself takes your place?


I believe in Star trek the idea is that you are transmitted to another place and reassembled so no.



But only information can be transmitted at any great speed (ie the speed of light), so it would make more sense to destroy the object/person at the source while mapping the exactly location of each particle (Heisenberg compensators on full power!), and then build and identical copy at the destination based on that information.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: billt on November 29, 2005, 04:50:07 PM
@MskoDestny

Quote

Someone needs to implement the basic Amiga chipset in FPGA and build a new system around that.


BoXeR tried and failed, and they had a good bit of money involved.

At this point, with OS4 no longer relying on the classic chipset, why must it be present at all? AmigaOne doesn't need it. If Troika works out that won't need it. (I refuse to call it Prometheus as I already bought an Amiga harware by that name, I wish Troika would rename theirs to something unique) There's no TECHNICAL reason OS4 couldn't run on Pegasos, only political, and it doesn't rely on the old chipset.

So I don't see any reason to have it at all anymore. Maybe Jeri will make an Amiga in a joystick someday to play classic games like Lemmings on TV or something, to complement the C64 joystick, but other than that I don't see any reason to bother anymore.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: billt on November 29, 2005, 04:59:57 PM
Quote
Really I was just trying to come up with a way to get around the PCI/Zorro bottleneck.


Get rid of Zorro completely. The Grex pretty much does that for you already bt going direct through the CSPPC's expansion connector and avoiding Zorro that Mediator is still subject to. I'm not sure what more beyond that you'd want from your proposed "fatherboard".

I know it's hard to find Grex, and I'm not sure how well OS4 supports it, but it is one already existing candidate for you.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Doppie1200 on November 29, 2005, 07:26:05 PM
Toss zorro? Emulate the chipset? mmmm....

I'm seeying alot of these upgrade threads about these days.
Question to all you guys and gals; what makes a piece of hardware that uses all kinds of modern techniques an Amiga?

The way I see it now is that these threads are about creating something that is somehow able to run amiga software without using an emulator and is thus an amiga. Sticking it in an old amiga case seems to add to the fun.

Now that thread about that A600 accelerator lately. That was a good idea!
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Dr_Righteous on November 30, 2005, 04:12:00 AM
@billt

Hmm, I never knew the GREX 4000D existed... I'd only ever seen the one for the Blizzard. Excellent! Now I know what to save my pennies for. Then of course comes the real trick... Finding one someone'd part with.

PS: I remember that Outer Limits episode... Spooky as f&%$!
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Jeff on November 30, 2005, 04:18:58 AM
Here ya go. These don't show up often :-).

http://cgi.ebay.com/G-rex-PCI-4000D-PCI-for-Amiga-4000-A4000_W0QQitemZ8730981124QQcategoryZ4598QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: MskoDestny on November 30, 2005, 06:45:13 AM
Quote

billt wrote:
@MskoDestny

Quote

Someone needs to implement the basic Amiga chipset in FPGA and build a new system around that.

BoXeR tried and failed, and they had a good bit of money involved.

One failure doesn't make it an impossible task and from what I understand the failure was largely a business one. From what I've read there were more or less finished prototypes put together.

Quote
At this point, with OS4 no longer relying on the classic chipset, why must it be present at all?

There's still a group of people that don't see these "new Amigas" as "real" Amigas. These new PPC based machines are pretty generic and for some people it was the unique combination of the OS AND the hardware that made the Amiga special. An improved AGA might not be the most practical audio and video solution, but the current Amiga market is hardly about being practical.

At the very least trying to put together a new classic system can't be any more silly than trying to shoehorn new accelerators that practically include a whole new computer into 10+ year old classic hardware.

Quote
I wish Troika would rename theirs to something unique)

They have. It's called the Amy 05 now or something like that.
Title: Re: The most ambitious hardware proposal ever... UAU (wow)
Post by: Dr_Righteous on December 01, 2005, 05:31:44 AM
I will say this... I'm a hardware guy. I like hardware. Software to me is simply instructions telling the hardware to do something cool.

When software talks to other software to translate the instructions to do something cool into something the hardware can understand, then it's sucking up my CPU time... Thus the whole point of the custom chipset in the first place: to take the load off the CPU.

Why do any of us own an Amiga at all? Why not just stick with UAE and toss out that old outdated machine? Simple, we're hardware junkies.

I want an Amiga. I don't want emulation. OS4 is great... A great step forward. But I'd rather run it on a CSPPC than an A1.

I'm sick enough to want a G5/060 accellerator. Or G5/ColdFire w/ the missing instructions routed to a PLD containing them.

No choice but to emulate? Fine, do it with a programable piece of hardware.

I am a hardware junkie.