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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: wonea on November 04, 2005, 11:58:38 AM
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Hello,
I've been looking at AOS4 and I want it. Feed up with my slow Mac. Is it going to be released this christmas? If so, I need a cheap AmigaONE. >£600 is WAY too much for a casual layman.
Regards
Wonea
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In order :-
So do I.
I would be too!
It certainly looks like it now.
So do I.
It definitely is!
M
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I've seen some pegasos's going cheap. Would these be able to run AOS4, or am I chancing death? MOS looks okay, but checking out morphos.net makes me think its not worth bothering. Plus I remember an interview with Carl Sassenrath about him not getting paid, plus someone from either FreeBSD or OpenBSD not getting paid. Should I be giving money to a company like this?
Amiga Inc don't seem trust worthy either, but Hyperion seem committed though I'd like to see more web presence.
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Why exactly is the AmigaONE twice the price of a more powerful Pegasos? Who can afford those prices? I want an AmigaONE.
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MOS looks okay, but checking out morphos.net makes me think its not worth bothering.
Well, the claim that "Any new version of MorphOS for the Pegasos won't happen before the above counters reach zero" is not true. Mr Gerber can't stop new MorphOS releases, and there has in fact been already two releases since that claim. Obviously unpaid people should be paid, but this is not stopping MorphOS development.
Plus I remember an interview with Carl Sassenrath about him not getting paid
Sassenrath non-payment isn't related to Pegasos or MorphOS, but Viscorp.
plus someone from either FreeBSD or OpenBSD not getting paid.
It was Dale Rahn and OpenBSD.
Should I be giving money to a company like this?
I haven't heard of any end user being mishandled by them, and at least they have a working guarantee system (broken systems are getting replaced/fixed).
Agreed, the company isn't all roses, but the product is solid.
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Thanks for the info. I have an obvious question. Which one will you go for, if any?
AOS4 or MorphOS?
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@wonea
For a cheap AmigaOne alternative that will be out soon see the Troika website (http://troikang.com).
-edit- Piru is a developer of MorphOS so don't bother asking.
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@wonea
Which one will you go for, if any?
Being one of the MorphOS developers I obviously went for Pegasos on MorphOS. I have Pegasos I (G3@600) and Pegasos II (G4@1000) (My computers (http://www.iki.fi/sintonen/hw.html)).
What you should go for depends on what you need, the available budget and other factors, such as hardware availability. I suggest you read more about both systems, visit www.amigaworld.net (http://www.amigaworld.net/) and MorphZone (http://www.morphzone.org). If you're unfamiliar with MorphOS, An Introduction to MorphOS (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/IntroToMorphOS/) should answer many of your questions.
Obviously I personally prefer MorphOS, but everyone should make up their own mind.
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
@wonea
For a cheap AmigaOne alternative that will be out soon see the Troika website (http://troikang.com).
-edit- Piru is a developer of MorphOS so don't bother asking.
Don't bother asking what?
I think the original poster should go for a MacMini... and protect his software investment.
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a pegasos can only run MorphOS - and some linux distros (mine doesn't, but I have a Pre-April peg)
Carl Sassenrath was owed money years ago and so are a bunch of others more recently. Altho the details are quite complex. Someday the book will be written. :lol:
while I personally don't trust most companies, like you I am impressed with amiga developers who write the software. I've seen OS4 continue to grow and improve daily. if it's possible, try to see one in action at a user meeting.
i'd love to get an amigaOne or Micro or whatever is being made, but i just don't have the money. anyway, it's very difficult for people in the US to get these. here or on amigaworld.net you may be able to find people near you to see one in action.
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wonea wrote:
Hello,
I've been looking at AOS4 and I want it. Feed up with my slow Mac. Is it going to be released this christmas? If so, I need a cheap AmigaONE. >£600 is WAY too much for a casual layman.
OS4 is not done, AmigaOnes are not available and there is a good chance they won't be available again, so I think AmigaOne with its hardware flaws is a bad idea. Troika is supposed to be coming, it gets away from MAI's flawed part, so it should run better then the AmigaOnes, however the OS is still not done, why buy a computer to run an incomplete unfinished OS thats 3 years late at the moment. If it gets done and Troika's are running well, look at it then. WinUAE outruns them all if you need to run your old software faster, ImageFX is really fast and would have been even faster if AI hadnt killed Amithlon. MorphOS computers are cheaper, better and the OS runs more older programs then OS4 at this point, so if its a compatibility issue, OS4 is the low one on the totem pole.
-Tig
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Tigger wrote:
OS4 is not done, AmigaOnes are not available and there is a good chance they won't be available again, so I think AmigaOne with its hardware flaws is a bad idea. Troika is supposed to be coming, it gets away from MAI's flawed part, so it should run better then the AmigaOnes, however the OS is still not done, why buy a computer to run an incomplete unfinished OS thats 3 years late at the moment.
Done seems to be a rather arbitrary metric at the moment. It seems that OS4 is complete enough that Hyperion can declare it done whenever they feel like it. Besides more 3D drivers, I don't particularly see what's not done at the moment.
WinUAE outruns them all if you need to run your old software faster, ImageFX is really fast
Petunia seems pretty fast from the videos I've seen. I suppose if you throw a fast enough machine at it, WinUAE is probably faster since current PCs are quite a bit faster than either of the PPC new "Amigas."
MorphOS computers are cheaper, better and the OS runs more older programs then OS4 at this point, so if its a compatibility issue, OS4 is the low one on the totem pole.
There's always E-UAE for stuff that won't run in OS 4's OS native emulation.
Of course there's always AROS. It's not as far along as either MorphOS or OS4, but it's free and runs on plain PC hardware. It doesn't have built-in emulation, but it does have an E-UAE port.
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I've got both and I cannot say which one is better. I more like AmigaOS but this is my personal opinion.
Trying to be objective they are just differet but none is better. MorphOS is an AmigaOS clone and AmigaOS 4 is AmigaOS. If you come from AmigaOS 3.9, you will see that in AmigaOS 4 everything still is where it was while MorphOS introduces a lot of new concepts (from a user's point of view). On AmigaOS 4 you can immediately start to work as you always did while on MorphOS you first have to search this and that. If you liked AmigaOS's concepts, probably AmigaOS 4 is fine. If you always thought that some parts should be different, perhaps you like MorphOS more.
Regarding trolls like Tigger, they always tell that MorphOS is done and AmigaOS4 is not. Well, from my subjective opinion AmigaOS 4 pre 3 feels much more "done" than MorphOS 1.4.5. There are many points in MorphOS where you bump against a wall because it either lacks expected features or just is not finished. I cannot help but on AmigaOS 4 I never had such an experience.
Bye,
Thomas
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
@wonea
For a cheap AmigaOne alternative that will be out soon see the Troika website (http://troikang.com).
It "will be out soon"? Can you post a link to where you read the release date? I'm interested. Thanks. Oh, and a link to the new pricing info would be nice too. The currently quoted projected price "Less than £400" on the website is still horrendously expensive (more than either the Micro-A1 or the original A1 cost). If it was "less than £200" (which is still very expensive for such an underpowered board) I may give it a second look.
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Thomas wrote:
Regarding trolls like Tigger, they always tell that MorphOS is done and AmigaOS4 is not. Well, from my subjective opinion AmigaOS 4 pre 3 feels much more "done" than MorphOS 1.4.5.
I'm sorry Thomas, but I am fairly sure calling me a Troll is against the policies of the website. I didnt say MorphOS is done did I. Ben & company keep preaching that there product is not done yet. I dont think anyone should buy an OS that is described by those selling it as "not done yet". It doesnt really matter because at this point there is no new hardware available that runs OS4. I really dont care about MorphOS, if he wants a PPC solution however he can buy one now unlike the current AmigaOne solution. And Genesi's hardware is better then the Teron boards, sorry but MAI's chip is busted thats why everyone except Eyetech dumped them. We didnt do it because it was fun, Rockwell didnt do it because it was fun, the Barbie folks didnt do it because it was fun, the part has flaws, lots of companies had to drop them because of it. When/If new hardware is available (Troika as I mentioned), it won't have the flaws and hopefully will have better prices and OS4 may be an alternative, but right now if he wants to run his current amiga software, one of the UAE clients will run it fastest (on a cheap x86), followed by Pegasos boards (which are available at faster speeds then the currently non-shipping A1's) followed by used A1 because new ones are not available. Thats not trolling, thats the facts in the current situation.
-Tig
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As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.
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@Tigger
Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated. Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's. But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.
Every motherboard, chipset, and cpu have errata. Most of these are worked around in firmware or software. That is exactly the case with the MicroA1 "C" version. It works as advertised with USB/DMA/IDE/Video, etc.
So, update your facts. Since the last year the only shipping AmigaONE's (new ones) have been MicroA1 "C" versions, which, as far as the end user is concerned, work without [hardware] problems of the earlier (might I add: developer pre-release) boards.
The fact that no new boards are available and the price is rather high is a separate issue.
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HammerD wrote:
@Tigger
Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated.
No there not, but thanks for playing.
Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's. But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.
Sure there are, now drivers have been written to get around the hardware problems in the MicroA1, but it is still using a flawed Articia bridge which prevents the hardware from running as it should and requires the system to perform in a substandard manner. Before you go into a big rant about no it doesnt, have you worked with the MAI part in question, have you worked with people that have, explain exactly how you think the drivers are getting around the articia's problem without slowing the system down??
Every motherboard, chipset, and cpu have errata. Most of these are worked around in firmware or software. That is exactly the case with the MicroA1 "C" version. It works as advertised with USB/DMA/IDE/Video, etc.
Works like advertised in what way?? DMA has been slowed down, drops TCP/IP packets for fun, is that part of the advertisement I missed?? Every system has errata is pretty much true, however most systems dont have a fatally flawed chip on them. In fact I believe the Terons/A1's are the only product who shipped with the Articia, though lots of us were designing with it at one time.
So, update your facts. Since the last year the only shipping AmigaONE's (new ones) have been MicroA1 "C" versions, which, as far as the end user is concerned, work without [hardware] problems of the earlier (might I add: developer pre-release) boards.
I'm sorry the early boards were not sold as developer pre-releases, I can't take any of your comments seriously if you actually believe that. Eyetech and Hyperion sold them to anyone with money and told them OS4 was coming soon, 3 years later its still not done according to them, there is no more hardware and we have people explaining that they were developer pre-releases, thats why there were problems. Funny Alan nor Benji brought that up at any of the shows I saw them at hawking there wares.
The fact that no new boards are available and the price is rather high is a separate issue.
No its actually the same issue. MAI's parts are unavailable because the people at Rockwell and others who used there faulty parts dealt with them. Telling people buy OS4 because you think its great but not pointing out that the hardware currently in use will likely never be available again is pretty silly dont you think. Hopefully Troika comes around, runs great and is a new home for OS4, but right now OS4 is an unfinished OS running on unavailable hardware.
-Tig
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reflect wrote:
As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.
ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand. Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced. MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake. Plug in you monitor, keyboard and mouse and go. For $499, Dell will sell me a laptop that runs WinUAE faster then an A1, again AmigaOne is overpriced, its not currently available and Hyperion says the OS to run on it isnt done yet.
-Tig
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Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's.
Didn't know the price of AmigaOne had gone down, for me is its biggest flaw.. :roll:
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@ Tigger
Sorry, I have owned a microA1 "C" now for a year and don't have any of these problems you are describing. I think you should get your facts straight before continuing to make yourself look like someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about.
Do you even own a microA1 "C" version and do you have hard data to backup your claims of these "problems"?
I'm not saying there aren't problems with chips. The MAI chip does work a bit differently than one would expect but this does not mean it is "flawed". This is how it was designed. You can argue whether or not that was a poor design decision or not, but the bottom line for the end user is that if they purchase a microA1 "C" production version all advertised features will work for OS4. That includes onboard graphics, sound, UDMA-100, DMA Ethernet, USB, etc etc.
If you choose to believe (and again I'd like to see your hard data) that there are existing, under the current version of OS4, these problems you mention, that is your own judgement. But back it up with proof otherwise you're just trolling.
@thread
Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...
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Well comparing it to the Mac Mini isn't terribly fair since it's arguable that the Pegasos is overpriced in comparison to the Mac Mini as well. Not as overpriced as the A1 of course, but neither are exactly great deals.
I don't understand why it's so important to you that the folks at Hyperion declare OS4 finished. What the people in charge say about it's level of completion has no effect on the user experience. I might question their business sense, but I suppose I might question the business sense of anyone trying to revive the Amiga platform in any way shape or form.
The cache coherency bug is unfortunate, but it's not a showstopper (at least not as far as OS4 is concerned, it's a problem if you want to run PPC Linux though). Obviously manually flushing cache lines before doing DMA is less than ideal, but it's not like there aren't other platforms with this limitation (the SH-4 for instance doesn't support hardware cache coherency at all and it did a reasonable job in the Dreamcast).
On a personal level, the showstopper is the price. A1 boards are just too expensive for my tastes (the lack of availability besides second hand sales is a bit of a damper as well). Hopefully Troika's board will be out soon, but they haven't set a release date.
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ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand. Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced. MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake.
And you compare the Mac mini, something that is selling by the thousands each week, with this board? Please connect some wires before you open your mouth.
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Tigger wrote:
reflect wrote:
As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.
ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand. Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced. MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake. Plug in you monitor, keyboard and mouse and go. For $499, Dell will sell me a laptop that runs WinUAE faster then an A1, again AmigaOne is overpriced, its not currently available and Hyperion says the OS to run on it isnt done yet.
-Tig
and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price. as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.
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HammerD wrote:
@Tigger
Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated. Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's. But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.
exactly. I really think people have to see an Micro in action. OS4 has been improved and seems to me about 95% done. Programs like DVPlayer was great in beta and just gets better now that it's available.
it's exciting to see how things improve and move forward. and that excitment is what pulled me into the amiga years and years ago!
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jkirk wrote:
and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price. as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.
Guys understand AmigaOne is not as high priced as it is because its made in small quantities, I know your heroes Alan and Benji tell you that, but its not true. Alans stuff is made at made at a major contract manufacturer (not as big as us, but not a small company) and the reason for the cost is who Alan has to pay, not how much Alan has to pay for production. Production on the Micro is sub 250, thats parts, thats labor, thats finished tested boards. I'm sorry but at $800+ there is alot of fluff. The Yellow Dog Linux guys were going to sell the board for $449 and make money on it till they found out it wouldnt run Linux, how could they do that, if the production costs are super high as you guys keep saying??
-Tig
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Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...
Well, they do now, yes (at least with OS4, although not with Linux, as the Linux authors don't want dozens of workarounds for the A1 hardware flaws entered into the main source tree).
That is part of the reason OS4 is ~3 years late - the time it's taken them to work around the broken aspects of the Articia.
But this is completely irrelevant now, anyway, since there are / will be no more A1's, unless you can find one second hand (and if you do, I wouldn't pay more than £100 for it, with OS4).
The biggest problem has been Eyetech. The closest they have ever been to hardware production is printing out stickers for Terons, DCE scandoublers and G-Rex PCI busboards (sorry... I mean AmigaOnes, Eyetech INSD2 scandoublers and Eyetech Predator SE PCI busboards)... No wonder there have been problems.
At the end of the day, anyone stupid enough to pay $800+ for one of those things got what they deserved. I have no sympathy.
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At first I thought of quoting and pointing out the mistakes. But that would have me dig up the numerous posts and news to "prove" that (eventually I guess). Flame me, but I couldn't be bothered.
Bottom line: In this community you have AmigaOS4 and MorphOS. Both are (doing) the same thing from a user point of view. Search the web for the reason(s) of having two AmigaOS (classic) successors and why people think their OS is best. From a HW point of view: OS4 need an A1 to work on (untill now at least) and MorphOS a Pegasos (untill now at least). Search the web about specs, pros and cons.
This might not be incredibly helpful, but I'm afraid it's the only sensible advice there is. History has led this community to split up and favour his/hers choice of OS to be "better" than the other to a point that "better" equals "It's teh real" or "it would be AmigaOS if it hadn't for..."
Search the web for teh truth, or wait for this thread (or another) to exactly point out why one OS and HW platform is better than the other. I advice Google ;-)
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HammerD wrote:
@ Tigger
Sorry, I have owned a microA1 "C" now for a year and don't have any of these problems you are describing. I think you should get your facts straight before continuing to make yourself look like someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about.
Sure you do, to get rid of the cache coherancy issue (and other issues with the Articia) Hyperion hacked the drivers, slowing the entire DMA system down, its great you don't see a problem it doesnt mean the systems DMA isn't dog slow because of the hack. As for the TCP/IP issue, thats directly from the Roadshow/Eth3com.device guys, if you think you know more then them and I about TCP/IP, hey thats great, I got a job for you. Please send me your resume.
I'm not saying there aren't problems with chips. The MAI chip does work a bit differently than one would expect but this does not mean it is "flawed". This is how it was designed.
No, its not how it was designed, if it was how it was designed then when I or the Rockwell guys or the Barbie guys call them up telling them it doesnt work according to their spec, and telling them what it really does, they dont argue with you, they dont blame other equipment, they dont suggest ESD damage, you get the idea. I've got a dozen of the chips in my lab, if you have fewer than that, and have never hooked a scope to one, please stop arguing that the parts work correctly.
You can argue whether or not that was a poor design decision or not, but the bottom line for the end user is that if they purchase a microA1 "C" production version all advertised features will work for OS4. That includes onboard graphics, sound, UDMA-100, DMA Ethernet, USB, etc etc.
As I have pointed out, and as others have, DMA was crippled by fixing the hardware problem in the drivers, the Ethernet port has problems according to the folks doing your ethernet driver and TCP/IP stack, who exactly are you to be telling them they are wrong??
@thread
Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...
@thread
Don't let someone who knows nothing about how something works vs how its supposed to work convince you that the broken board is not broken. Its not an real issue anymore, because the broken board is also not going to be manufactured anymore.
-Tig
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Funny how these arguments always break out when someone mentions Pegasos and AmigaOne in the same sentence.
I have two points for you:
1) I'm posting this on an AmigaOne (A1XE-G4@800, latest AWeb, AOS4 PR3)
2) I'm not selling it.
I think both of those points are a pretty good way of refuting the "A1 is broken" argument, myself. :)
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MskoDestny: I don't understand why it's so important to you that the folks at Hyperion declare OS4 finished.
Neither do I. Software is never "finished." :-)
Besides, once it's "finished," people who don't own an AmigaOne will just continue to complain about how many things are missing, which means we enter Windows territory: patch mania.
Come on. When I bought my Mac mini, the first thing I had to do was connect to Apple Update and download 300+ Megs of pathces and updates. Yes, that's right. 300MB.
jkirk: without a large production run the cost is high.
Of course. But, somebody felt the PPC decision was the right way to go, and had to realize that supply would be a problem -- and didn't care.
Hyperion et al are looking beyond the Amiga community to make money. That's what makes it so puzzling to me why PPC was the only real choice as the platform. If they are looking towards potential markets where backwards compatibility with existing PPC Amiga software is a non-issue, why focus on a CPU that is really only popular in servers, routers, and game machines? Surely companies involved in these markets already have OS partners of their own, using systems far more powerful and robust than OS4.
Isn't this against everything Amiga Inc. told us about DE (or AA, or WhatEver)? Funny how they are trying to sell most of their pocket games on ARM machines while their future OS runs on PPC. OS4 on the Playstation3? The PSP is based on MIPS.
Maybe instead of making an expensive PPC board and port a "lightweight" OS to it, they should have used x86 and stuck 2 Gigs of RAM in it. It would still be cheaper! :-)
Lando: That is part of the reason OS4 is ~3 years late - the time it's taken them to work around the broken aspects of the Articia.
I don't buy that for a second. Hyperion simply overcommitted to a very huge task. Porting an OS is a lot more complicated than porting a game.
Didn't they have to pause OS4 development for a while becuase they needed to work on other projects to make some money?
Tigger: Sure you do, to get rid of the cache coherancy issue (and other issues with the Articia) Hyperion hacked the drivers, slowing the entire DMA system down, its great you don't see a problem it doesnt mean the systems DMA isn't dog slow because of the hack.
I buy this. As a PC user, I notice hard drive throughput right away on each system I use, while CPU speed is pretty much irrelevent. Most people I know blame the CPU for everything, and easily don't notice performance issues that are releated to the motherboard. Yet another reason why "budget" comptuers can sell with such high-end CPUs, and still offer lousy performance (and provide mucho fuel for x86 bashers). People just don't realize that the whole system has to be matched and tuned to get good performance, and that the chipset makes a HUGE difference.
Besides, to what will an ArticaS board be compared? It's not like there's a hundred PPC boards out there available for benchmarks, like in the PC world, and good, x86 vs PPC benchmarks are rarely unbiased. ArticaS follows hardware standards several years old, too. Is is fair to compare it to a brand new PC, or do we compare it to a Pentium3?
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wonea wrote:
I've seen some pegasos's going cheap. Would these be able to run AOS4, or am I chancing death?
Of course they are perfectly able to run AmigaOS4, and so is most PPC consumer hardware (which nowadays basically means "a Mac").
The problem is not hardware or its vendors. The problem is AmigaOS not being allowed by its own IP-owners to be adapted to and sold for more hardware to more people on an open market. See my signature and this site (http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk/)...
BTW, I wouldn't call the Pegasoses "cheap". Of course they're cheap when compared to a so-called "AmigaOne", but it takes quite some effort to be THAT expensive! The Pegasos 2 is actually functioning as advertised and is obviously better hardware with better support (from a company that at least seems to know what they're doing regarding their own product) than anything offered with an "AmigaOne" sticker. Another advantage is that it's also available to buy. I don't see how there can be any discussion on what's the better hardware. The bummer is that you're not allowed to choose whether to run AOS and/or MOS on it.
If you've already decided to get AmigaOS4, I suggest you hold off buying anything until AOS4 is commercially available, and see what hardware they're going to allow you to buy as an AmigaOS user then. Who knows, maybe common sense will prevail and the IMO retarded and harmful "Amiga hardware" requirement will eventually be thrown back on the scrap heap of history where it belongs.
MOS looks okay, but checking out morphos.net makes me think its not worth bothering. Plus I remember an interview with Carl Sassenrath about him not getting paid, plus someone from either FreeBSD or OpenBSD not getting paid. Should I be giving money to a company like this?
Others have already addressed that here, and I don't dare to touch the subject. :) Here (http://www.phinixi.com/tiki-print.php?page=OpenBSD-Peg%20Wrap-up) is a collection of links to statements from all involved parties regarding the OpenBSD controversy.
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@thread
Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...
For that matter, even the older ones aren't as "flawed" as the opposition originally tried to claim, and still trie to portray. The onboard AC97 sound on my A1XE is working quite nicely now. I had it running concurrently with Thor, AWeb PPC and DNET working on OGR25. THere was no sound breakup, no loss of throughput on web sites or email downloads/uploads. So I'm not sure what the problem might be with either TCP/IP, ethernet port or sound. Maybe I just lucked out on every periphral I've purcvhased for my A1 so far. They all work. (oops, OK, the Catweasel doesn't do anything useful yet bevause Jens hasn't written any floppy drivers for OS4. But that's not an A1 hardware issue is it then?)
DMA? Sure, there is a "problem" there. It's fixable for about $30 with shipping and handling included. But I've been anjoying my A1 too much to take it apart and send it in. I just bought a Sii DMA 133 card and run my main drives from there. Besides, this also helps get areound the problem of having the ability to connect only four devices. I was used to my 4000 with its Phase5 SCSI plus onboard IDE. Lots of devices!
So what do we have? We have some early hardware (sorry Tigger, but you're wrong here, too. I ordered my XE when it was still being called a "developer" board. Actually, I ordered the SE, because that's all there was when I ordered. But the XE's came out just in the nick of time so I could change my order to an XE. But it was still beofre the "EARLYBIRD" era.)
Everything you so conveniently blame on the Articia isn't even because of the Articia. THe sound has been traced to a problem in the Via southbridge and is now fixed in AHI.
But cheer up, Tig. I'lll agree with you on one thing. The A1's are expensive. On the other hand, you're claim that there will be no more manufactured is rumour and conjecture, like so much else that you write.
Disclaimer: I do not have an electronics laboratory of my own like Tigger apparently has. I do not possess several Articia chips. (just the one that's been working in my A1 for a couple years nnow without problem.) I am not trained in electronics engeneering. Nor am I tied in any way to a computer baord manufacturing company.
But I do know this: As a complet Linux newbie, I had my A1 up and running and taking care of my email and web surfing from day one. I played around a litle with GIMP and Abiword. I think it took about four months from delivery before OS4 pre1 was released. I didn't know I was suposed to turn off DMA until about the last three weeks of Linux use. I didn't have any trouble even with DMA on. . . Not even while I was online.
So, after all this long rambling, I can only say that Tigger is taking some known flaws and making mountains out of molehills. Tkae his rant with a grain of salt.
Hey, Tig, ya' know what. My Windoze box at work (fairly old now) has an Asus motherboard with a Via chipset. I wouldn't do sound at all until I downloaded new firmare and isntalled it.
Paul
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jkirk wrote:
and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price.
The end-customer price for a Teron once it's been relabeled to "AmigaOne" is severely inflated. That's a matter of fact. When Mai ordered even smaller Teron production volumes than Eyetech did (because the boards were meant to be included in Mai's Articia developer kits only), then you could still buy a Teron from Mai for ~$300 less than Eyetech's price for the exact same hardware, and AmigaOS was not included in Eyetech's price at the time.
Tigger's already mentioned Terrasoft announcing Teron PX sales at an initial (=high) price below $500 (including taxes, Yellow Dog Linux, support -- and a profit margin). That plan failed because the hardware was and is flawed and unsellable (by a reputable company) at any price.
as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.
I wonder where this mythology has its origins? Genesi aren't "skirting around" anything and aren't underhandedly "subsidizing" anything or whatever other wacko theories I've seen been suggested as excuses for the price difference between Pegasoses (or whatever hardware) and "AmigaOnes".
Pegs are expensive, not cheap. It's relatively low-volume PowerPC hardware, after all. "AmigaOnes" are expensive and overpriced by an unnecessary middleman with a de facto monopoly on an artificially created pseudo-market consisting to a large part of customers who will pay anything for something with an "Amiga" related trademark, simple as that.
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Paul wrote:
@thread
Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...
For that matter, even the older ones aren't as "flawed" as the opposition originally tried to claim, and still trie to portray.
"The opposition"? "Claim"? Why is it that exposed and repeatedly proven hardware flaws are "claims from the opposition" around this part of the computing world when it comes to this particular series of motherboards, but if it were about e.g. ASUS motherboards then there would be no debate? "The USB on the ASUS A7M-266D mobo is broken, here's the proof. Don't buy it. Buy another product."
To answer myself, I think it could have something to do with the unfortunate lack of "another product" (combined with the irrational zealotry that tends to taint anything associated with The Trademark).
Combine this with hardware "reviews" consisting of community members posting screenshots and dnetc benchmarks, together with customers who have lived in isolation and now are drowning in their own drool to finally see something that's faster than their one decade old Amigas, even if it costs up to 80 times as much as similarly performing (and functional) x86 hardware from 1999.
"MD5SUM, what's that? Who need's 100Mbit throughput? It only corrupts data occasionally! The IDE issues are almost fixed, just get a 3rd party IDE controller card! 133 MHz bus schmus, 100 MHz works fine! The A4000 used to cost $3000, and I can't even remember what companies used to pay for a PDP-11!"
So what do we have? We have some early hardware (sorry Tigger, but you're wrong here, too. I ordered my XE when it was still being called a "developer" board.
It has never been sold as a "developer" board or with any disclaimer whatsoever with regards to the hardware. Never. That is a recently invented lie in response to warranty claims (I think it happened in (one of) the last "Q&As" with Redhouse on aw.net).
All Terons ever sold by Eyetech (with the possible exception for a very small number of Teron CX's of the first VIA686A revision, I'm not sure about that one detail today) have been sold as "AmigaOnes". I.e. with the alleged certified quality, guaranteed compatibility, having passed stringent testing, with full support et c. Those were among the reasons for why people were supposed to buy "AmigaOnes" from Eyetech instead of Terons from Mai, TSS, Inguard or whoever. This was the hardware end-users were supposed to buy now and later use with AmigaOS. People weren't supposed to buy new hardware again, once AmigaOS is released!
The only caveat posted before that lie was regarding software: AmigaOS is not yet finished, and firmware updates might be released, and that alone is why the "Earlybird" offer was said to be not suitable "for everyone".
The word "Earlybird" was the name of the offer where you would get AmigaOS for free (when available) if you bought an "AmigaOne" before a certain date. It had nothing to do with "developer" or "beta-testing" hardware.
And how the hell would a customer "develop" a motherboard that he's bought anyway?
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At the end of the day, anyone stupid enough to pay $800+ for one of those things got what they deserved. I have no sympathy.
If you have no sympathy why don't you just quit and stop repeating yourself? There are greener fields in the horizon you are looking at, I am sure.
I paid 800+ Euro for my MicroA1, and I don't feel sorry about this. I received working board with working AmigaOS 4, and that's what I expected. The software releases and updates in the past months are more than what I expected.
Seems you are smarter, after calling people like me stupid, but your rant about the price shows that your aren't paid good enough else that $800+ wouldn't be a fortune for you. In the end of the day, I might be a stupid but I can spent big money for whatever I want, and I don't care what you think. And I am happy with my purchase, that's the most important.
P.S. If you are that smart, why aren't you wealthy enough to buy both solutions and decide from first hand which is better? Ok, just enjoy you free MorphOS T-Shirt and be happy.
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drHirudo wrote:
At the end of the day, anyone stupid enough to pay $800+ for one of those things got what they deserved. I have no sympathy.
If you have no sympathy why don't you just quit and stop repeating yourself? There are greener fields in the horizon you are looking at, I am sure.
I paid 800+ Euro for my MicroA1, and I don't feel sorry about this. I received working board with working AmigaOS 4, and that's what I expected. The software releases and updates in the past months are more than what I expected.
Seems you are smarter, after calling people like me stupid, but your rant about the price shows that your aren't paid good enough else that $800+ wouldn't be a fortune for you.
This is getting silly.
If I put out an ad for pine tree cones dipped in elk faeces and say I want $10 for each, then I don't think the reason to why you wouldn't want to buy one would be because you don't have $10!
Lots, maybe a majority, of adult employed people in the western industrialised world have $800. Amazingly enough, Eyetech have not sold a couple of hundred million "AmigaOnes" yet. :P
In the end of the day, I might be a stupid but I can spent big money for whatever I want, and I don't care what you think. And I am happy with my purchase, that's the most important.
With regards to the potential for survival and commercial viability of AmigaOS, the most important thing is not whether "drHirudo" is happy or not. :)
P.S. If you are that smart, why aren't you wealthy enough to buy both solutions and decide from first hand which is better? Ok, just enjoy you free MorphOS T-Shirt and be happy.
One usually can decide which hardware is better without buying it. Lando seems wealthy enough to buy an iBook G4 anyway... :)
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Lots, maybe a majority, of adult employed people in the western industrialised world have $800. Amazingly enough, Eyetech have not sold a couple of hundred million "AmigaOnes" yet. :P
The AmigaOne isn't aimed to the majority of the adult employed people in the western industrialised world. It's releases till now were mostly for the current or past Amiga users, which are not that much nowadays.
With regards to the potential for survival and commercial viability of AmigaOS, the most important thing is not whether "drHirudo" is happy or not. :)
It's the most important for me. For me these 800 Euros were reasonable spent.
One usually can decide which hardware is better without buying it. Lando seems wealthy enough to buy an iBook G4 anyway... :)
I can buy one too, but it wouldn't run AmigaOS 4 :( Also a 14" monitor is not a good one. After getting used to 20", everything smaller than that is crap for me :-D
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I can buy one too, but it wouldn't run AmigaOS 4
see, that's the main thing some people forget. why would anyone want an amigaone/micro or for that matter a peg?
so they can run amiga programs.
do i state the obvious?
well, Duh!
this is all about being able to play with a fun OS. I've looked over some of the recent posts here and it's all a description of people buying what they wanted and HAVING FUN with it!
the boring debate about price and HW is basically irrelevant. certainly people can debate tech issues all they want. that's "fun" for some people. but for others, just HAVING a toy to play with is exactly the point.
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Why are the developers of AOS4 tying the OS to specific hardware. This is how the Amiga got in this mess in the first place by not allowing Amiga-Compatible computers. When IBM allowed anyone to make a clone of its computers the amiga was left in the dust.
Where is the business sense in this? They could make a lot more money off the OS than with hardware. Palm realized this when they started to license their OS to Sony and other PDA manufacturers.
Give me AOS4 I can install on a PPC system of my choice and I'll buy it.
I wish someone with some common sense had the cash to buy all the rights when Commodore went bankrupt. Commodore may have made huge mistakes but they look like geniuses compared to who has controlled the Amiga since then.
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Mangar wrote:
Why are the developers of AOS4 tying the OS to specific hardware.
The developers (Hyperion) aren't the ones behind the tying. Reading between the lines when they post on forums, they don't give the impression of being overly enthusiastic about it either.
The ones behind the tying are a computer shop (Eyetech) and the company controlling the trademark and IP behind the OS (Amiga, Inc.).
Why? God knows.
Eyetech probably thought there would be money in it. Heh. So they printed their "AmigaOne" stickers and got the expected 1000-something people to empty their wallets. Now what?
As for AInc, they don't seem to have given a sh!t about AmigaOS when they accepted Eyetech's compulsory licensing idea, and AInc might have been tempted by a little quick (but small and short-term) licensing cash when everything was falling apart around them.
This is how the Amiga got in this mess in the first place by not allowing Amiga-Compatible computers. When IBM allowed anyone to make a clone of its computers the amiga was left in the dust.
Where is the business sense in this? They could make a lot more money off the OS than with hardware. Palm realized this when they started to license their OS to Sony and other PDA manufacturers.
Obviously there is no business sense. Maybe someone once thought there could be, but in that case I'd say they've been proven wrong over and over again for 3 years now.
Officially AInc do claim to welcome new hardware vendor licensees. In reality, everyone who so far has enquired and even negotiated (even to the point of a missing signature on the licensing agreement!) has been ignored or eventually turned down.
Regarding Palm, AmigaOS is not meant for or suitable for being embedded in PDA-type devices (even if Hyperion's new website strange enough says it is), and that's the sort of market where hardware vendor licensing is standard and expected. Not many users care about or even know about the OS that runs their calendar and address book apps, or install PDA OSs themselves.
Desktop computer end-user OSs are of course licensed for bundling by hardware vendors too, and if anyone actually would be interested to buy such a licence for AmigaOS then more power to them. The retarded thing that's done by AInc/Eyetech is making the licensing/bundling compulsory, and making the OS and its users dependent on abundant existence of hardware licensees. The OS is only supposed to be available bundled with "licenced" hardware on a market separated from the normal open market for that hardware. No separately sold copies for people to buy and install themselves. We may not buy the exact same hardware but sold by a normal "unlicensed" vendor.
No licence for vendor of hardware X = no port for hardware X and no sales for hardware X.
Give me AOS4 I can install on a PPC system of my choice and I'll buy it.
Yup. The most common "outsider's" comment posted in response to AmigaOS stories on e.g. OSNews seems to be along the lines of "if they insist on PPC, why the hell can't I buy it for a cheaper, better and faster Mac?"
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drHirudo wrote:
Lots, maybe a majority, of adult employed people in the western industrialised world have $800. Amazingly enough, Eyetech have not sold a couple of hundred million "AmigaOnes" yet. :P
The AmigaOne isn't aimed to the majority of the adult employed people in the western industrialised world. It's releases till now were mostly for the current or past Amiga users, which are not that much nowadays.
I think you might have missed my point. I was trying to say that it doesn't matter if you have the money, if you don't think the product is worth the money (or if you simply aren't interested).
I wasn't serious about the "Eyetech haven't sold millions" bit. Really! :) I was just trying to show how silly it looked when you speculated on Lando's (or anybody else's, for that matter) lack of funds as the reason for not buying an "AmigaOne".
With regards to the potential for survival and commercial viability of AmigaOS, the most important thing is not whether "drHirudo" is happy or not. :)
It's the most important for me. For me these 800 Euros were reasonable spent.
I know that's the most important for you, you just said so. I'm not arguing against your personal reasons.
One usually can decide which hardware is better without buying it. Lando seems wealthy enough to buy an iBook G4 anyway... :)
I can buy one too, but it wouldn't run AmigaOS 4 :( Also a 14" monitor is not a good one. After getting used to 20", everything smaller than that is crap for me :-D
Well, there you go. You haven't bought an iBook because you don't like it or you don't think it's worth the money for your purposes. Not because you can't afford it. QED.
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Seehund wrote:
Mangar wrote:
Why are the developers of AOS4 tying the OS to specific hardware.
The developers (Hyperion) aren't the ones behind the tying. Reading between the lines when they post on forums, they don't give the impression of being overly enthusiastic about it either.
The ones behind the tying are a computer shop (Eyetech) and the company controlling the trademark and IP behind the OS (Amiga, Inc.).
I would agree with you except for one thing, Ben works/worked for Hyperion, and Ben bragged about writing the contract. If one of your directors writes you a bad contract, and you sign it, saying its not your companies fault is an incorrect premise in my belief system. I'm sorry OS4 is tied to shoddy unavailable hardware, before they had shipping hardware, we were talking why dont you make it run on G3 Imacs, but there hardware was better, etc then Apple, and going to be cheaper too. None of that actually happened and we have no hardware available for OS4 at the moment.
-Tig
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spirantho wrote:
Funny how these arguments always break out when someone mentions Pegasos and AmigaOne in the same sentence.
I have two points for you:
1) I'm posting this on an AmigaOne (A1XE-G4@800, latest AWeb, AOS4 PR3)
2) I'm not selling it.
I think both of those points are a pretty good way of refuting the "A1 is broken" argument, myself. :)
This arguement surely didnt start because of mention of Pegasos, I for one, and most of the people on here could care less about Pegasos, as for you points.
1) Proves absolutely nothing, what do you think it proves.
2) Again proves nothing, what do you think it proves.
The A1 is broken is a hardware fact. I can mess with the OS until the hardware bugs aren't apparent to most is also a fact, however it doesnt change the first fact. We fixed the Dpaint bug by fixing the AmigaDos 2.0 rom with a fix we called clickity split, it doesnt mean that Dpaint didnt have a bug in it, we masked it to help out the customer. Hyperion is continuing to add software fixes to there OS to cover the broken parts of the hardware, if that doesnt effect you and what you do, thats fine, but that doesnt mean the hardware doesnt have a problem or that when you start trying something new with your computer it might not work because of the hardware bugs.
-Tig
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Tigger wrote:
I would agree with you except for one thing, Ben works/worked for Hyperion, and Ben bragged about writing the contract. If one of your directors writes you a bad contract, and you sign it, saying its not your companies fault is an incorrect premise in my belief system.
I agree with that reasoning. I should have written "the developers which I've seen speaking on the matter" instead of just "Hyperion".
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Paul wrote:
Everything you so conveniently blame on the Articia isn't even because of the Articia. THe sound has been traced to a problem in the Via southbridge and is now fixed in AHI.
Sorry Paul, I'm not wrong, as has been pointed out by me, and half a dozen others who actually design hardware for a living half of the things that Eyetech blame the Via chip for, don't even go through the southbridge. It would be more correct to blame Paula for a blitting problem on a classic Amiga then it would be to blame the southbridge for most of the issues on an AmigaOne, we finally even have Ben fessing up to that, so lets get out of the backpedal to blaming Via again.
On the other hand, you're claim that there will be no more manufactured is rumour and conjecture, like so much else that you write.
Chips are EOL, what exactly do you think they are going to do about that?? Alan basically said he wasnt going to make more in his interview months ago. What exactly do you think is going to happen in this situation.
But I do know this: As a complet Linux newbie, I had my A1 up and running and taking care of my email and web surfing from day one. I played around a litle with GIMP and Abiword. I think it took about four months from delivery before OS4 pre1 was released. I didn't know I was suposed to turn off DMA until about the last three weeks of Linux use. I didn't have any trouble even with DMA on. . . Not even while I was online.
Which means you didnt use anything that used DMA, or you didnt really have DMA on, because the DMA problem is there, thats not my opinion, thats the opinion of everyone who uses the chips, that even Hyperion's opinion now, thats why they fixed there driver to cover the problem, thats why the Terrasoft people didnt sell the board, thats why all the Linux builds abandoned the board, you think they are all wrong and you are right??
So, after all this long rambling, I can only say that Tigger is taking some known flaws and making mountains out of molehills. Tkae his rant with a grain of salt.
No Tigger is pointing out that the current OS4 hardware has flaws and isnt currently being manufactured, thats all true.
-Tig
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MskoDestny wrote:
Done seems to be a rather arbitrary metric at the moment. It seems that OS4 is complete enough that Hyperion can declare it done whenever they feel like it. Besides more 3D drivers, I don't particularly see what's not done at the moment.
Its not my metric though, its Hyperions. Hyperion constantly says they are not done yet. I personally believe thats a business decision, because once they are done, they have lots of checks to write, as long as its "not done yet", they dont have to, and plus if something isnt working they can go on that its not done yet, and its unfair to compare us to xxx, because we arent dont yet. Right now, completing OS4 would be a huge financial burden to Hyperion, they can't sell anymore because there is no hardware, but they owe CDs to 1000 users (I believe final CDs are going to be shipped right), plus money to all the developers, and may owe money to AI and/or Eyetech. So we aren't going to see OS4 done, until they can make money selling it, and I unfortunately think that means new hardware, not already available hardware (ie Macs).
-Tig
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Mangar: Why are the developers of AOS4 tying the OS to specific hardware. This is how the Amiga got in this mess in the first place by not allowing Amiga-Compatible computers.
I guess they're trying to mimic Apple, but with little success. Apple stays in business by selling apps, services, and other goodies with their computers, not just hardware and a raw OS.
Hyperion also mentioned piracy as having a major role in the decision. By avoiding x86, the likliness of getting OS4 running on unlicensed hardware is less. Of course, any platform developer will tell you that by restricting the volume, you almost guarantee that critical mass cannot be reached. Everyone pirates Photoshop and Flash, yet, these are the kind of world-standard applications that drive the Internet.
Let's face it. Flash is the greatest media format invented so far this century. It runs on anything, and far, far better than Sun ever promised Java could. It includes a good scripting system that may evolve into a real programming language, and it's only a matter of time until Macromedia adds 3D graphics to replace all those "fake" 3D tools people have already been using for years.
Mangar: They could make a lot more money off the OS than with hardware. Palm realized this when they started to license their OS to Sony and other PDA manufacturers.
Again, I find it amusing that Hyperion is looking towards other PPC platforms to make money. OS4 may be lean on resources while operating, but it's also lean on capabilites. My brother-in-law works on Java-powered cell phones, and I can tell you right now that OS4 doesn't have a chance breaking into markets where such a low-porformance, resource-hungry platform like Java running on Linux is making an explosion.
Interoperability is more important than resources, and always has been. Make a 200GB hard drive, and software developers will find a way to fill it up. Apple makes an OS that has a 12 Gig installation and runs poorly with less than 512MB of RAM, and people are buying in excess of "1,000 a day."
Seehund: As for AInc, they don't seem to have given a {NRRRT!} about AmigaOS when they accepted Eyetech's compulsory licensing idea
Why bother with a new AmigaOS when intent already runs fine on Linux?
Seehund: Officially AInc do claim to welcome new hardware vendor licensees. In reality, everyone who so far has enquired and even negotiated (even to the point of a missing signature on the licensing agreement!) has been ignored or eventually turned down.
When I bought my SDK, I found it impossible to contact Amiga Inc. to register. After a month, I gave up.
This was about the same time their phones were shut off. :-)
Tigger: If one of your directors writes you a bad contract, and you sign it, saying its not your companies fault is an incorrect premise in my belief system.
I feel this way about the hardware issue. If everyone had tested things more thouroughly first, or bought from a reputible manufacturer, maybe these problems wouldn't have been so severe.
That's the way it is in small, proprietary markets, as my experience with using Kodak photographic workstations shows. $5,000 for a 400Mhz dual-Xeon workstation with striped SCSI drives, which is less powerful than my $1,000 single-CPU 2.4Ghz P4 with a Western Digital SATA drive? Oh, please -- enter the 21st century! Also, that workstation price is only for the hardware, not the additional $35,000 software license, which was based on WinNT 4 (the company claims their software wouldn't even run on Win2000).
Tigger: Sorry Paul, I'm not wrong, as has been pointed out by me, and half a dozen others who actually design hardware for a living half of the things that Eyetech blame the Via chip for, don't even go through the southbridge.
While I haven't bothered to research any of the causes of the AmigaOne issues, I can say that it's all too easy to blame VIA due to their reputation. People blame VIA for hardware issues like they blame Microsoft for software issues.
Given that Mai Logic's website hasn't been updated in a long time, and has lots of b0rken links and images, it really looks like their venture into PPC chipsets hasn't gone too well. That's all I really need to know to avoid the company.
Tigger: ...thats why the Terrasoft people didnt sell the board, thats why all the Linux builds abandoned the board, you think they are all wrong and you are right??
Either that, or they don't want to bother. There's other plaforms to support, now that Mai seems to be MIA.
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
For a cheap AmigaOne alternative that will be out soon see the Troika website (http://troikang.com).
asking.
Hmmm Seen the posting about the AMY'05 for a while now..
Until they have a product on the shelves, it's vapour IMHO
hell -- their website still doesn't have a hard price -- only speculation on it:
Q What is the price of the Amy'05 motherboard?
The price of Amy'05 is dependent upon country: local taxes, shipping etc. We released a highly cautious, conservative estimate of less than £400 in the UK . Amy'05 will be priced for high volume production and availability. We can manufacture Amy'05 in Asia, the US , or Mexico, and ship worldwide from the US or Canada. Depending on volume, hypothetically Amy'05 could retail at an estimated price of $400 US which of course would greatly reduce the price in other currencies (such as Euro or Sterling ).
I wish them all well and hope they do well.. but I am not putting too much faith in it until i see at least something more concrete.
dB The DBA
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whoa, Tigger is on a rampage. :)
well, I'll just add/reemphasise (sp) these points:
1. Pegasos2 is cheaper and more highly specced than AmigaOne hardware, and is currently available
2. MorphOS and AmigaOS4 software bases are nearly identical, but with some very noteworthy exceptions such as (but not limited to) early versions of Blender, Pixel32, and soon KHTML!.. thats a good bit of software I reckon.
3. MorphOS is reputedly more compatible with older amigaos3.x software.
I have an AmigaOneXE. I wanted to go with the official direction, and I dont regret it at all. This is my first "kickass Amiga". It's the A4000 I could never afford back in 1994 and I absolutely love it.
OS4 feels very complete. The only thing I miss is AmigaInput support. Software wise, I'd love a more modern browser. The hardware has flaws here and there.. they're well known.. but they dont affect my daily usage in the slightest, which others have mentioned here.
My opinion, the MorphOS platform has the edge atm. :) But I enjoy OS4 nonetheless.
I know theres been a lot of political squabbling in the past, and a lot of important people in the scene may never get over it. I wont hold that against anyone. But I wish we could kiss and make up, and get OS4 going on hardware such as the Pegasos2. I know, liscenes blah blah blah. But someone somehow needs to make it happen.
In my opinion, the day of the Amiga branded computer is over. For me, anything that runs AmigaOS natively will be an "Amiga". I say "Amiga" because what defines "Amiga" is different for everyone, and I dont like to force my defination on others.
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I am bitter because the companies involved in the AmigaONE and AOS4, have lied and stringed along the users since the very start. Despite being a user since the late 80s, i refuse to give money to anyone of those companies.
@drHirudo
It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not somebody can or can not afford a Amigaone board, but more like people will not give money to rotten liars and cheats.
Everything in Amigaland is SOUR and the companies trying to save the Amiga and its OS are the worst of the bunch :-(
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Everything in Amigaland is SOUR and the companies trying to save the Amiga and its OS are the worst of the bunch
Which is why I champion the Open Source (http://www.aros.org/) version of AmigaOS.
Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/)
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Which is why I champion the Open Source version of AmigaOS.
This is not a version of AmigaOS. From the site you are linking:
AROS is a portable and free desktop operating system aiming at being compatible with AmigaOS 3.1,
It's a standalone operating system aimed at being compatible with AmigaOS, but it's not AmigaOS, like MorphOS is not an AmigaOS, despite it's also AmigaOS binary compatible (at some level). They don't belong to the AmigaOS version tree.
If I write an OS for university project, which is source or binary level compatible with Windows (at some degree) would that mean that I would write a version of Windows then?
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by drHirudo on 2005/11/6 10:54:43
It's a standalone operating system aimed at being compatible with AmigaOS, but it's not AmigaOS, like MorphOS is not an AmigaOS, despite it's also AmigaOS binary compatible (at some level). They don't belong to the AmigaOS version tree.
Of course it's not AmigaOS, that's owned by someone else. It is a open source version of AmigaOS and even MOS is based on AROS. That does not make it a foriegn OS, but a very fimliar one to all of us who have owned Amigas over the years. No where did I say that AROS should be in Hyperion's CVS, but Hyperion is free to do so, if they so wished, since it is under a open source license.
If I write an OS for university project, which is source or binary level compatible with Windows (at some degree) would that mean that I would write a version of Windows then?
Sure. I would say that is a drHirudo version of windows then. Wether you open source it or not is another matter.
Have I connected enough dots for you, or do I need to go into further detail why AROS is an alternative to closed sourced AOS/Amiga-likeOSs?
Dammy
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You guys don't make it easy for me!
The points I've seen are;
MorphOS looks great
Available hardware, at a price which I will buy
AmigaOS4 is the official way which I like, looks interesting.
AmigaONE is ridicously expensive, new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives if ever? Been waiting for over a year!
AROS has a great philosophy, but highly doubt it will be finished for a couple of years
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wonea wrote:
Why exactly is the AmigaONE twice the price of a more powerful Pegasos? Who can afford those prices? I want an AmigaONE.
Very good question... I personally want one too, but cannot afford it at this price. I hope the troika is not vaporware and will have a OS4 license. It will be much cheaper than the current aone according to their faq.
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OS4 is not done, AmigaOnes are not available and there is a good chance they won't be available again, so I think AmigaOne with its hardware flaws is a bad idea. Troika is supposed to be coming, it gets away from MAI's flawed part, so it should run better then the AmigaOnes, however the OS is still not done, why buy a computer to run an incomplete unfinished OS thats 3 years late at the moment.
But according to those who have aones, the OS4 prerelease is fully usable even now, even though it misses some features of the planned final version. If he is ok with how the pre release now runs, then why should he not want it?
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The thing that strikes me as funny when people are comparing prices are this;
They take a commodity motherboard with equivalent or better specs, then compare the prices and come up "the A1 is overpriced!". Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?
As in, licensing/buying the schematics for the design you're going to use? Paying someone to make changes to that design .. cause, no matter what some people say, the original Teron and the A1 aren't exactly the same. They have evolved over time, and that's not cause someone was nice enough to just update them for free.
Let's take an example.. someone spends 50k USD on design. That same someone spends another 50k USD on producing 100 boards.
Now, production costs alone reach 500USD per board, but that's without counting the previous 50K USD used in design. It's also without adding the price for the operating system (let's face it, Hyperion have spent 3+ years on this and they've done a pretty damn good job). Big question is, do you support this someone spending *alot* of their hard earned cash in giving you a new platform, or don't you? Is it unfair to charge alot more than what it costs to produce? I'd say it depends on the other, hidden costs that most people don't have a clue about - often the same people handing out long rants about how boards are overpriced and obsolete.
Wake up and smell the coffee, this isn't about being state of the art, it's not about being the cheapest on the block either. It's about bringing people something so that they can run their favourite operating system.
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reflect wrote:
The thing that strikes me as funny when people are comparing prices are this;
They take a commodity motherboard with equivalent or better specs, then compare the prices and come up "the A1 is overpriced!". Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?
As in, licensing/buying the schematics for the design you're going to use? Paying someone to make changes to that design .. cause, no matter what some people say, the original Teron and the A1 aren't exactly the same. They have evolved over time, and that's not cause someone was nice enough to just update them for free.
Let's take an example.. someone spends 50k USD on design. That same someone spends another 50k USD on producing 100 boards.
Now, production costs alone reach 500USD per board, but that's without counting the previous 50K USD used in design. It's also without adding the price for the operating system (let's face it, Hyperion have spent 3+ years on this and they've done a pretty damn good job). Big question is, do you support this someone spending *alot* of their hard earned cash in giving you a new platform, or don't you? Is it unfair to charge alot more than what it costs to produce? I'd say it depends on the other, hidden costs that most people don't have a clue about - often the same people handing out long rants about how boards are overpriced and obsolete.
Wake up and smell the coffee, this isn't about being state of the art, it's not about being the cheapest on the block either. It's about bringing people something so that they can run their favourite operating system.
Your argument only holds true if you discount the fact that Eyetech could very easily bought a Commodity x86 board and used a Custom BIOS (for the OS 4 lock in) on it, called an AmigaONE and sold it very cheaply.
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by reflect on 2005/11/6 14:15:16
They take a commodity motherboard with equivalent or better specs, then compare the prices and come up "the A1 is overpriced!". Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?
But that is not the consumer's problem, it's Eyetechs. Consumers want quality for their hard earned money. Things get even worse when the prices are far too high and quality is far too low. Hell, it's pushed A1s into laptop pricing, and not too many people are going to spend that type of money for an OS not out of beta running on a buggy mobo. Let alone the other items you need to buy to make the mobo/cpu into a computer.
The A1 series is a flop, get over it already.
Dammy
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So now the argument shifts from money to quality? Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway. The A1 ownerns I've met and know, most of them have said "yeah, DMA/Ethernet/USB is a shame, but I(or my dealer) have worked around that problem so it's no longer a problem for me" and they all seem quite happy with their purchase.
It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.
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I'll agree with you that the A1 is a flop at the current time, simply because it's not readily available. (Its owners certainly seem pleased with it, though 8-)).
However, OS4 is already an awesome achievement - as is, and the final version is due by year's end. Here's hoping that new hardware (such as Troika's Amy) also materializes soon. Obviously, that will be key to OS4's future.
Btw, all the best on AROS. Very cool project.
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wonea wrote:
AmigaOS4 is the official way which I like, looks interesting.
I'm not sure what this "official" thing really means. I've had my hands on MorphOS, OS4, WinUAE and AROS. they ALL "Feel" like amiga. They each have certain things that are different, but as an Amiga user since about the mid/late-80's I'd have to say I know an Amiga when I touch it.
AmigaONE is ridicously expensive, new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives if ever? Been waiting for over a year!
it's only expensive if you don't want to pay that price. If I had the money I'd get a Micro because that motherboard fixed a few problems that the previous boards had, Plus it's smaller (for me, that's a plus). And USB does work on an amigaone, altho it depends on the device. believe me, I'm the one at all the meeting I go to who is BE-tching about this!
I think this idea that "new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives" is incorrect. I've never heard that the HW is waiting on the software. In fact from what I've seen the continuing development of HW is not connected to the software at all. I mean, the beta testers for OS4 continue to make improvements on a daily basis. Which is why the OS is basically "done" at this point. I wouldn't be waiting for anything if you wanted a Micro. The only issue seems to be finding a board from a dealer. dealers have to order a certain number at a time (prepayed). and they have to order the exact same number of OS4 copies. It's a bit clumsy, but that's the way it is. It's not like anyone asked MY opinion on how to do this. :roll:
AROS has a great philosophy, but highly doubt it will be finished for a couple of years
As I said, I've played around with AROS and it has alot of potential. You can't actually DO anything ATM, really. But I like seeing it develop. It rather exciting.
as far as I'm concerned anything that keeps amiga moving along is a good thing. this way we don't have all our eggs in one basket. there will always be amiga in some form around. to which I say, Yippie!
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reflect wrote:
Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?
As in, licensing/buying the schematics for the design you're going to use? Paying someone to make changes to that design .. cause, no matter what some people say, the original Teron and the A1 aren't exactly the same. They have evolved over time, and that's not cause someone was nice enough to just update them for free.
I realize you dont know alot about this stuff, but now you are just getting silly. The production Teron boards and the Production A1's are the same hardware, built from the same raw PWB, with the same parts list, Eyetech just reflashes the ROM so OS4 will run on it, something monkeys or even Alan can be trained to do. Eyetech didnt pay to have the board redesigned, get real. As for your 50K, thats pretty good pay for 2 or 3 weeks work, really know companies that pay like that for board designers, if so let me know, I need to send them some resumes. A complete board design gets done here in 2 months tops, a redesign (as you are claiming happened) gets done in a few weeks, virutally noone pays 50K for 3 weeks work. They would be better of hiring a guy for a year at 50K, and get half a dozen boards out of him. But then you wouldnt have your 50K example of how much it cost Eyetech to do a redesign they didn't do. Eyetech is recovering money from their failed design that never worked, you might not have a problem with that, but I do. I dont think the Amiga community should be paying for Alans failed attempt at making his own PPC board.
-Tig
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I think this idea that "new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives" is incorrect. I've never heard that the HW is waiting on the software. In fact from what I've seen the continuing development of HW is not connected to the software at all. I mean, the beta testers for OS4 continue to make improvements on a daily basis. Which is why the OS is basically "done" at this point. I wouldn't be waiting for anything if you wanted a Micro. The only issue seems to be finding a board from a dealer. dealers have to order a certain number at a time (prepayed). and they have to order the exact same number of OS4 copies. It's a bit clumsy, but that's the way it is. It's not like anyone asked MY opinion on how to do this. :roll:
Cecilia,
There are no more Micro boards, we've had dealers for weeks talking about getting some in RSN, and that time has really come and gone. Due to the chip situation, I dont' think there will be any more boards (or in actuality a significant number of new boards) available ever. That means we are waiting for new hardware (likely Troika) or a port to another PPC platform (Apple, Genesi) to see a significant increase in OS4 sales. Otherwise we have what a jokingly refer to as the holy 1000, which will fade into oblivion over the next couple of years.
-Tig
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So now the argument shifts from money to quality? Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway. The A1 ownerns I've met and know, most of them have said "yeah, DMA/Ethernet/USB is a shame, but I(or my dealer) have worked around that problem so it's no longer a problem for me" and they all seem quite happy with their purchase.
Regardless if the software is disabling some/all the faulty MAI chipset's DMA capabilities, it's what the prospective customers are thinking about that matters. I'm hearing on here and else where it's the price and the lack of support from Eyetech that makes people pass on A1 series. OS4 maybe a very nice OS, it's just not the only Amiga-like OS in town. That means there are alternatives to it and that gives alternatives to different machines other then Eyetech's.
I think sales of A1s prove my point, it's a financial flop. So much so, I'm betting Hyperion is in no hurry to release anything but "beta" code in fear of having a hord of coders wanting their long due monies. What's the English phrase for this, "buggered"?
Dammy
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It was an *example* - not something to be taken as truth. But if you think that the A1 has not undergone revisions and alterations, you're the one being silly.
Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design. That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.
Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts. The fact is, apart from the Phase5 Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC boards, what other boards are available right here, right now that are capable of running AOS4? Do you even own an A1? If not - you haven't shelled out for it and I wonder why you seem to have shouldered the title of "defender of the amiga community"? Contrary to VisCorp, Gateway and whatnot, Eyetech actually put a product out there. Now, you might not like the price, you might not like the specifications - FINE. I don't preach to you, so why do you feel the need to preach to me?
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reflect wrote:
Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design.
No thats not what they did.
That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.
No its not, finished boards get sent to Eyetech these are the same boards as the Terons, all that happens to the board after the manufacturer makes them and ships them to Eyetech is they flash the Rom. Eyetech is not tweaking the boards, thats not there job, and as they have proven in the past, its not something they are capable of doing.
Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts.
Again you don't understand the story. Before deciding to buy the Terons, Alan spent alot of money failing to design his own PPC. I dont think the Amiga Community should have to pay more for the Teron, because Alan spent lots of money making boards that didnt work when power was applied to them.
-Tig
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reflect wrote:
So now the argument shifts from money to quality?
I think it's about both, and then some.
Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway.
That's the main thing that matters to THEM, the happy current "AmigaOne" customers. But AmigaOS must be sold to more people than those who are (still) happy with their already purchased "AmigaOnes".
Also, Eyetech are presumably like other computer shops, and would like to attract more customers as well, so in case anyone gives a toss about Eyetech's business, they too would benefit from actually finding good hardware to offer at sane prices.
It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.
Huh? On the contrary, I find it quite obvious and natural that those who shun a product for obvious and well documented reasons (faults, price, availability, customer support, whatever) would NOT spend their money on buying that product.
In case anyone would care, personally I'm not trying to discourage others from buying an "AmigaOne". Go on, have fun. But that doesn't mean I'm supposed to feel compelled to shut up when I see false marketing for it, or that I will abstain from mentioning the damage that this product and its vendors and licensors have done, only because we'd be expected to have some misguided loyalty to an arbitrarily applied trademark.
OTOH, one weird thing is that some of the product's biggest "unpaid salespersons" have NOT bought the product, at the same time as they work to hide flaws and discredit valid criticism and skeptics. Same thing with inexperienced users, who often don't seem to have much computer experience other than from their old Amigas, who join in the praising chant and argue against the exposure of any flaws and disadvantages.
(No names, but obviously I'm not referring to you, reflect).
In case you're talking about some boring old "red vs blue" game, then it seems to me like it's almost only "AmigaOne" users who have made the product's more or less hidden faults visible through use, and thus they are the people who have taken the hits. Faults isolated to the ArticiaS have been exposed by several parties though, both independent ones as well as "red and blue".
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reflect wrote:
Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design. That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.
[edit: Tigger already set you straight on that bit.]
Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts. The fact is, apart from the Phase5 Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC boards, what other boards are available right here, right now that are capable of running AOS4?
Macs and Pegasoses is the glaringly obvious answer to the question "if one makes a consumer PPC desktop OS, for which hardware would one try to sell it?" They're perfectly capable of running AmigaOS. It's AmigaOS, or whatever other OS, that needs to be adapted to hardware, not vice versa. From the developers we always hear how quick and easy it would be to make AOS4 run on Pegs/Macs, it's certainly not technical issues that's the problem here.
There might be more obscure options, but why not go with the obvious and with what more people could actually be expected to buy or already own for starters? Few options is the unfortunate effect of going PPC only, but that's actually a (partially) technical matter for once.
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reflect: It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.
For people who believe the AmigaOne is an update to a classic Amiga, then, yes, I suppose it's worth it, especially given the prices of the alternatives. For those who want a new Amiga that will be viable in the future, AmigaOne doesn't cut it. Compared to non-official solutions like Pegasos, AmigaOne still doesn't cut it.
I'm sure most people are looking for a bright future for Amiga, not a re-hash of 90's technology and software. We've had a looooooong time to deal with Amiga since Commodore went under. It's time to move forward with new systems, or dump all this marketting nonsense that attempts to woo PC users to the Amiga platform, like Hyperion's "20 Reasons" list.
No matter what, there's just not enough interest to justify further development. I know I keep saying "critical mass" over and over, but that's precicely the problem. So long as Amiga makes money, the platform can live. Whether they make money depends on demand, and with no future support, there is no demand.
What about people who bought AmigaOne as a replacement for their classic Amigas? Are they going to continue to run their classic applications, and avoid buying any "new" Amiga hardware? Re-releases have short-term profit potential, like the Atari Flashback, but that's no way to establish a solid market.
Tigger: The production Teron boards and the Production A1's are the same hardware, built from the same raw PWB, with the same parts list, Eyetech just reflashes the ROM so OS4 will run on it, something monkeys or even Alan can be trained to do.
My impression is that the Teron was semi-modular, allowing certain changes without a complere redesign and recertification (made-to-order, if you will). Replacing a flashable EEPROM with a ROM is one example. With so little official information available, I've all but gotten lost regarding the manufacturing details, but I have heard that Eyetech had to contract a manufacturer to build the boards based on Mai's design, and they did have certain "substitutions", such as the ROM lock.
I believe you're right that a redesign wasn't used for the AmigaOne, but it's not strictly a stock Teron board. People did just have an argument recently about whether the AmigaOne's on-board audio works or not, and found that some AmigaOnes have the audio chip, while others do not. Or, did that only apply to the AmigaOne Micro?
Maybe the audio chips just fell off in transit, and Eyetech decided to sell the boards, anyway.
Dammy: Regardless if the software is disabling some/all the faulty MAI chipset's DMA capabilities, it's what the prospective customers are thinking about that matters.
Yup. Based on Mai Logic's broken website, it doesn't appear the company is very active. So, where do we go from here? How can I feel confident about AmigaOne when its only hardware supplier is playing dead?
Dammy: So much so, I'm betting Hyperion is in no hurry to release anything but "beta" code in fear of having a hord of coders wanting their long due monies
Now this is unfair. How long has OS4 been in the testing phase and has seen active development after the prerelease? This is not a "beta" project.
Hyperion is probably the only company that has given a damn about the Amiga over the last decade. Arguably, even longer, given how much Commodore screwed it up.
Seehund: In case anyone would care, personally I'm not trying to discourage others from buying an "AmigaOne". Go on, have fun.
Yes. The reason for complaining is so companies get the message that they could be doing things better. If you're happy with AmigaOne, then good for you. But, it just could be so much more, and could sell much more, too.
Not to mention work properly.
Seehund: Macs and Pegasoses is the glaringly obvious answer to the question "if one makes a consumer PPC desktop OS, for which hardware would one try to sell it?" They're perfectly capable of running AmigaOS. It's AmigaOS, or whatever other OS, that needs to be adapted to hardware, not vice versa.
The holy grail of computing is turning hardware into software. I don't care about the hardware so long as it doesn't suck and is affordable. It's AmigaOS I want.
Well, sort of. I'm becoming more and more aware of severe design flaws in UNIX and other OSes, and AmigaOS isn't exactly a gem, either. I guess what I should say is I want something new that resembles AmigaOS.
I miss being able to have fun with a computer without resorting to playing games.
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Waccoon wrote:
I believe you're right that a redesign wasn't used for the AmigaOne, but it's not strictly a stock Teron board. People did just have an argument recently about whether the AmigaOne's on-board audio works or not, and found that some AmigaOnes have the audio chip, while others do not. Or, did that only apply to the AmigaOne Micro?
Maybe the audio chips just fell off in transit, and Eyetech decided to sell the boards, anyway.
Originally the sound chip didnt work, it was believed to be a hardware problem in the PWB, so on subsequent builds of the board, the part was deleted from the partlist, thats why on the majority of A1's there are pads for the part, but no part. In recent weeks, a sound driver for the chip has been written, which seems to be working fine, of course now the majority of the A1's dont have the chip the driver is trying to support, however if you have the chip, the on board sound is now working. Part deletion saved a dollar or two I would guess on parts cost, if someone tells me the actual chip number, I could give you a more definitive cost.
-Tig
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@Tiger
If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.
C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.
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by FrankBrana on 2005/11/7 13:18:16
Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.
Why buy it all if they do not have any advantage to other computers? It's the OS that matters, not the machine. With the era of ~$500 laptops that are faster and cheaper then the bare bone PPC cpu/mobo , it's rather foolish to pay for more and get less.
That is why Amiga was a big success, it did far more for far less. Yet today, people think of doing far less for more cash is a winner.
Dammy
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FrankBrana wrote:
@Tiger
If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.
C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.
UAE runs on real and modern hardware. There is no Amiga hardware and no of evolution of such, and I don't think that many dreamt of poorly performing, faulty and overpriced Terons back when people used to think there one day could come new Amigas. That was when people wanted new Amigas because the old Amigas had lost against the competition due to poor performance and a high price!
So in case anyone would be interested in "supporting" a hardware vendor for their production of real and modern hardware, then he could do so by running UAE on such hardware. He would not do it by buying an "AmigaOne", which nowadays is only barely real (as in "available") and it's not more modern today than it was 4 years ago.
If we're supposed to think of what/who we're supporting when we buy something, then I think buying an "AmigaOne" is supporting consumer fraud, an unnecessary and mostly(?) unwanted monopoly, and stagnation of development. But all hardware vendors are commercial enterprises and shouldn't need "support" to be viable, at least not of the enforced "Amiga hardware licensing" kind. I think what you as a customer want and/or need is more relevant. Buy an "AmigaOne" or whatever because you like it or need it.
I feel no obligation to "support" Eyetech just because they have bought the rights to arbitrarily use a certain trademark for their distribution of 3rd party hardware. It's too bad that the current AOS4 sales model is apparently created to subsidise an otherwise irrelevant hardware vendor.
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FrankBrana wrote:
@Tiger
If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.
C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.
Amithlon would have allowed revolution on x86 hardware, it was done years ago, and we would have had 2 or 3 major updates since then. AROS will eventually supass that effort and will be open source. We don't need to build our own hardware (AmigaOne) to update the OS to PPC (or x86 for that matter). Macs are plentiful, at this point Pegasos' are available as well. AmigaOne aren't being manufactured now, and when they were, were more expensive then either of those alternatives, weren't as powerful and weren't being repaired under warranty (the biggest complaint of them all). Plus the AmigaOne has the hardware problems brought on by the Articia. I'm all for updating the OS, I'm against tying it to a faulty albatross called AmigaOne. 1 days production of the Mac Mini would more then double those using OS4. At $100 (or even $150) a pop, there is literally 100's of 1000's of dollars worth of sales available on a Mac port. Less for a Pegasos port, but even then lots of money, right now, OS4 has been sold to every AmigaOne owner, until it there is new hardware, there is no new OS4 sales. Thats not good for Hyperion, and not good for the OS4 community. The Troika folks have picked good parts for there design, but honestly I doubt they will have shipping hardware for Christmas, so we have no sales of OS4, till January or later, how is that better then doing a Mac port and selling the hell out of it??
-Tig
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Imagine OS4 on now prehistoric Macs like my G3 Powerbook, it would mean it could run a rather quick and cool OS. OS X is just too damn slow on it and OS9...well that's just sucks almost as bad as Win95.