Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmiDude on October 26, 2005, 03:44:33 PM
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I've noticed that there ary many questions about where
to get a good scandoubler / flickerfixer. Well, I've bought
a "Scart Video to XGA Converter" CM345S. I hooked it up on
my Miggy, and it works realy GREAT! It gives a sharp & clear picture and the quality is much better then the external SD/FF like the MV1200 or others. Take a look on this links:
www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/100.html
www.lektropacks.com/view_item.php?product=46&&category=13
www.bcsistem.com/conversores/cm345s.htm
www.cypress.com.tw/product.php?PId=90518&CId=001&CName=PC%
www.hificables.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/11100/groupID/712/categoryID/2400/v/99e3e8d7-969d-41ca-b2fe-431f50a179e0
www.electrashop.co.uk/tv-tuner.htm
The CM345S comes with all needed cables, power-adapter
and even a remote-control! Look at the tech. specs.
The only thing you need is to buy an 23-pin Video to Scart cable. They are frequently on sale on eBay for about 10 euro's. After testing a lot of external SD/FF's, I was fedup with the poor image quality and the 5 minute
"warming-up" time. I'm very satisfied with this unit, it works great with all Amiga's! Highly recommended!
:-D
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Interesting. I have seen composite to VGA/XGA adapters but never RGB to XGA. A bit pricey but better than the current price of scandoublers...
Nice one!
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but it has always been my understanding that the quality of the display is lessened or degraded when converted from the Amiga's 23 pin RGB to a composite output. I know that the composite output jacks on the Amiga's themselves when connected to a video monitor/TV definitely have a much less sharp display. So, my thinking is that any scan doubler/ficker fixer that is designed for composite input to VGA or XVGA output would not yeild the same results as a scan doubler/flicker fixer designed for the 23 pin RGB 15kHz output of the Amiga.
If I am wrong, than your suggestions for solutions should be valid ones, but I think it is a little harder to find SCART connections here in the US.
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If the adapter converts the Amiga RGB output to composite and then converts that composite signal to XGA, then yes you would experience a loss of quality. But if the adapter converts the RGB signal directly to XGA then I would imagine the quality would be the same as with a scandoubler (because that's what it is...).
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Interesting. I've had the same unit for the last 12 months or so and was unable to get a stable or clear picture. Works great on my xbox or gamecube though. What amiga are you using it on? Mine was a PAL 1200.
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What type of input does your one have?
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I use an RGB scart cable. I know the cables ok as my current solution (an LG box!) works fine.
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How are you getting the scart connection from your Amiga? And your xbox? If you are using scart cables which contain the RGB signals then the effect should be identical whether you connect the Amiga or the xbox. But scart cables also contain a composite signal - so be careful your Amiga cable is not using this signal instead of the RGB, otherwise you will suffer poor quality.
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On the amiga from the 23pin video port, the xbox by a genuine m$oft rgb lead. I agree with you, the signals SHOULD be identical given their both rgb wired but their not! I have the same problem with most of my older machines and consoles, rgb and composite. I also cant get any of my vintage single game consoles to tune into modern tv's properly. No idea why but would love to know! Anyone shed any light?
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That is strange indeed. Maybe it's to do with the strength of the signal? If the older devices are using a slightly lower voltage in their RGB connections then the conversion to XGA may be more lossy than with a more modern device.
Sounds like a long shot but it's the only thing I can think of!
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Amigadave wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it has always been my understanding that the quality of the display is lessened or degraded when converted from the Amiga's 23 pin RGB to a composite output. I know that the composite output jacks on the Amiga's themselves when connected to a video monitor/TV definitely have a much less sharp display.
yes , you're right about the composite output, but this
baby converts 23-pin RGB SCART directly to XGA and not composite.
As it's a well known fact that connecting your Amiga by
an RGB-SCART cable to, for instance, a TV-set, gives you a far more sharper picture than if you use only a cable from your composite output.
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zx6r6 wrote:
Interesting. I've had the same unit for the last 12 months or so and was unable to get a stable or clear picture. Works great on my xbox or gamecube though. What amiga are you using it on? Mine was a PAL 1200.
I've used it on my A600 and A4000 without any problems.
The first time I hooked it up and put the power on,
I didn't get a picture, but after I pushed the input button on the remote-control,I got a clear & sharp
picture on my PC-monitor! Maybe you did something wrong. Sorry if I'm not correct. Read carefully the user-manual.
It should work with any Amiga. There are also brightness,
color, contrast, sharpness, tint, sound, resolution and sleep-timer controls. It's realy a great piece of hardware!
:-)
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If anyone is interested in doing this, here is a schematic for an Amiga to SCART cable:
http://www.hardwarebook.net/cable/av/amigascart.html
I went to Maplin Electronics today to get the components but unfortunately couldn't find a 23 pin D connector :-?
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The 23-pin connectors are a bit hard to get hold of... unless you've got something you can cannibalise one from!
Alternatively, you can buy pre-made RGB SCART leads for the Amiga from eBay for about £10 and save yourself the hassle of soldering one manually. See here... (http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.co.uk%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=Amiga+SCART&category0=)
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Ok........Dont know if anyone knows this, But here in the Good ole US of A, we dont use SCART......we either use the RGB out or S-Video out for clear pictures...........Now I imagine SCART is the UK's version of S-Video.so I also imagie their is a USA version of this RGB to XGA convertor..if not..........I think I know how to get it to work..........their is an RB cable for the AMiga that splits up into those 4 color composite BNC thingies.........I think they were for the Toaster..........so just plug those 4 cables into the BNC to SCART thingy and the SCART into the XGA box :-) That might do it ? :-)
If not...I will have to buy a SCART cable. I hate those things. :-)
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leirbag28 wrote: Now I imagine SCART is the UK's version of S-Video.
Nope. SCART is not any kind of signal, it's simply a connector which is common in Europe (originates from France). SCART can carry either S-Video or RGB signals at the same time.
their is an RB cable for the AMiga that splits up into those 4 color composite BNC thingies
Hmmm, I am not 100% sure what you mean here but maybe you confuse it with Component video? The connectors look like BNC-connectors but you need to do a color-tranformation when going from RGB to Component YPbPr - so it does not work with a simple cable.
Going from RGBHV to BNC should not be a problem however.
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humppa wrote:
leirbag28 wrote: Now I imagine SCART is the UK's version of S-Video.
Nope. SCART is not any kind of signal, it's simply a connector which is common in Europe (originates from France). SCART can carry either S-Video or RGB signals at the same time.
Okay, the SCART carrying both signals at the same time is something that most American Amiga users might not know. It appeared to me that the devices being pointed to accepted composite video in sources, not 15kHz RGB sources and scan doubled them to output on a PC monitor or LCD screen. There was also a 15 pin VGA pass-through so you could also connect your PC video card output and just use one monitor/LCD screen to view both devices. I want to believe that these things work on an Amiga for everyone's sake, but I have not heard from anyone using one that has convinced me that it is scan doubling the RGB signal and not the composite signal, which it appears they were designed for.
Still, they are not cheap, but at least they are in production.
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If you are speaking of simple VGA/TV boxes, yes, they usually use HF, Composite, S-Video, sometimes also Component input.
The device AmiDude was pointing at, however, could possibly accept RGB over SCART *directly*. This would mean a big improvement in picture quality since there is no signal loss.
However, I am not sure what they mean with "SCART Input - RGB Composite". Hopefully this is *real* RGB input, leaving Amiga's signal unchanged.
I recently bought a TV box (scan doubler if you want) and was very disappointed with image quality. For games it this would be acceptable, but the picture was also jumping up and down 10 pixels. That's why I am also looking for a different solution.
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amigadave wrote:
I want to believe that these things work on an Amiga for everyone's sake, but I have not heard from anyone using one that has convinced me that it is scan doubling the RGB signal and not the composite signal, which it appears they were designed for.
Like I mentioned before: This device scandoubles the RGB-
SCART signal direct to VGA-SVGA-XGA, so no problem there!
If you're looking for a real good SD/FF, then this is simply it! You can even hook and power-up your Amiga and PC at the same time! you can switch between the 2 computers by the remote-control's input button. ;-)
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the "cypress" web site has the manual of the CM345S in pdf.
It says (page 3):
QUOTE
Input Selection :
Press the button to select between SCART input and PC-loop throught.
When scart input is selected CM-345S will outomatically detect the
SCART input as a RGB signal or composite video signal.
/QUOTE
so it seems to be what we were looking for... :-)
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@AmiDude: You could maybe post some screenshots of the box running games/workbench on your monitor?
icbrkr posted a review some time ago which I found very helpful:
http://tinyurl.com/ayuv9
http://www.particles.org/reviews/vgabox.php
It would be great to see the difference between the two boxes (input Composite vs. input RGB).
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Yes.
A review would be great. And how about Super Hires modes? If it works there it would be super-hires great. ;-)
In the manual it states:
QUOTE:
50/60 Hz framerate conversion ensures glitch-free display of PAL source on any monitor.
ENDQUOTE
What do this mean?
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@humppa
I will make some photo's of the workbench and games
with the CM345S powered on. I'll try to upload this
to the forum as soon as possible. I could tell you
right now that the quality of those composite to vga/xga
boxes, are much less than this SCART-RGB to XGA device!
I know, because a few months ago I purcased an "XGA-box" with Composite/S-VHS input and it's really a piece of c**p! It gives a very fuzzy picture. I returned it to the store to get my money back. So, don't get one of those Composite2VGA boxes. You really get disapointed. :-(
@tobiaspb
It works with Super-Hires too! It gives a flicker-free picture in al Amiga Laced modes. So it's not only a
Scandoubler, but also a Flickerfixer! :-) :banana:
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This indeed sounds like a great device! Great to hear that you will upload some photos so that we can spot the difference.
Don't forget to include some close-ups like in the review.
I just hate this colour-bleeding which you get from TV/VGA-boxes when using Composite input.
I bought this one: http://www.px.com.tw/e/p03-Hotpro-3.php
A complete disaster! The picture never got stable with modes such as 640x256 or 320x256. Only when using interlace modes such as 640x512 the picture wasnt jittering - but no interlace, so flickering as hell. It also did not accept any signal from my good ole C64.
I just need to be sure that PAL game-resolutions look fine...
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Could you post a pic of super hires laced on it? I'd love to see that working. No flicker? Really? Is this an LCD monitor or a standard monitor?
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I've uploaded 11 pictures to the "Miscellaneous Amiga Images" section of this site. The names all start with
"CM345S", so it's easy to find.
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?c=16
I don't know when they're gonna be visible to watch though.
:roll:
@vic20owner
There's absolutely no flicker visible when displaying Super-Hires-Laced screenmode!
:-D
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Aaaaargh....I don't believe it! After spending a fortune on boxes I thought I'd give my CM345S another try as your still singing its praises.
I tried it on my pc TFT monitor this time as opposed to my (CRT) Iiyama pro 454. Bl**dy thing works a treat!!! Being as my scart lead isnt shielded I can only assume that the Iiyama interferes with it in the same way that it does my wireless mouse and keyboard. Maybe this box isn't as tollerant as my current box with regards to noise. I would recommend this box and would say that the quality is almost as good as my internal scan doubler/flicker fixer in my other miggys, maybe it'll be as good with a better scart lead!
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Wow... DPaint on a BIG 21' TFT... I think we found our holy grail. :-o :-) I want one. Now.
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@AmiDude
THe pictures you posted look great! except the game pictures.
it seems to blurrrr 320 x 200
AM I correct?
nevertheless the Workbench images and DM2 screens look crisp as can be.
Can you answer me.........I would need an Amiga RGB port to SCART cable correct? where can I get one?
Have you tested in PAL and NTSC? how does it work? does the screen go blank when it switches? or does it remain smooth?
Another Question..............what if you were to put a RGB to VGA adaptor on the Amiga and plug it in the VGA in............would it scan double that? please try it.......my guess is that you would have to put it in Productivity (Multiscan) mode or DblPAL or DblNTSC..but try it............if it works.I will sing!!!! because this would be an easier solution than buying a SCART cable!!!
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@leirbag28
The game pictures look a little blur, because
I didn't hold the camera stable, I guess.:nervous:
You must keep in mind that taking pictures
of images on monitors doesn't look great at all.
But in real the games look as crisp as can be.
All native Amiga resolutions are displayed just fine!
:-)
About the RGB-SCART cable: You can buy them on eBay
for about 10-15$.
I did a little PAL to NTSC-switch test in the early
startup control. It seems that the screen's going blank
for about 2-3 seconds. It does that also without the CM345S and with a 15Khz monitor connected to it.
But, why would you switch from PAL to NTSC? Certainly
not frequently...:-?
About the RGB to VGA-adapter: I can't try that for you,
because then I would need a VGA to SCART-cable. I do
have an RGB to VGA-adapter, but no VGA to SCART-cable.
But I guess it should work though...:idea:
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@leirbag
OK, I didn't understand you correctly about the
RGB-VGA adapter. But now I've just tested it.
First I saved de Multiscan resolution and then
I plugged the VGA-cable to the PC-in, and it works!
Very sharp and stable picture. But that was Workbench only.. If you use the CM345S this way, you can't play
games or run any other application in the native Amiga
screenmodes. So, if you wanna play games etc..you must
buy an RGB to SCART-cable.
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@AmiDude
Thanks for testing that........but you missed the most important test of all.
Dont save it into Multiscan mode a Im sure that would work anyway on any PC monitor.
What I am asking is connect it from the RGB to VGA adaptor straight into the VGA PC input of your box............but! without putting it in Multiscan................leave it in NTSC or PAL..............just to see if it would scan double this RGB NTSC/PAL signal coming in from the VGA input of your box where a PC would normally be connected. if it does, then we wont need a SCART cable! WooHooo!
I will be masively surprise if this works.
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Hmm... I'm still sceptical of the FF ability. All of those pictures are HiRes but not laced, therefore there IS no flicker. How about SuperHiRes Lace? Will it do it?
It is definately a lot better than the VGA box I had. It looks ok so far...but I'm waiting to see the HiRes and SuperHiRes interlaced modes.
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@vic20owner
There's 1 picture in HIRES+LACED mode:
1 Workbench shot.
Take a look again... It's a very good Flickerfixer!
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=1161
:-D
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@leirbag28
The VGA input of the CM345S is only a passtrough
for a PC or Amiga with SD/FF(PicassoIV), so you
can switch with one press on the input button
from one computer to another.
But it don't scandoubles the input.
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@Amidude
Yes, I am sure thats what it probably is.................can can you still test it? pretty Pleaseeeeee??? :-D
Maybe the circuits dont care where the signal is coming from and it might still SD/FF it.......because maybe it was also intended for ATI cards when they output NTSC signals...one never knows :-D
Please please try it. :-D
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@leirbag
I tried it, but with no result, sorry.
I guess you need to use an RGB2SCART-cable
after all. They're frequently for sale on eBay.
:-)
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Wow! The interlaced wb shot looks better than with an internal scan doubler (at least better than on my LCD monitor).
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@amidude
what about you feeling ? i mean for eyes. I am have in my a1200 micronic scandy internal scandoubler. And want to said that is SUXX ! of course it is usable, but 30hz refrash rate ! it is really pain for eyes. What you feel with cm345s ? 60hz it is a bit more good the 30. So, how it ? Can you use it for hours ?
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Any idea if the color space is 16-bit or 24-bit? Perhaps someone could open this case and identify the video processing chips. I'm sure the specs could be found on the Internet.
Also, is this thing avaliable in North America?
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@kas1e
The refresh rate is indeed 60Hz. I've powered the CM345S
on for the whole day with an A630HD connected to it, without any problems! It looks real good. I have tested
a few SD/FF's before, but this one really beats 'm all!
I would highly reccomended it to every Amiga user!
:-D
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@bubba
I guess it's true 24-bit, but I'm not sure...
I've placed a few links in this post, from where
you can buy an CM345S. The full name is:
"Presenter1 Scart Video to XGA Converter CM345S"
:-)
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@amidude
Btw, what kind of SD/FF do you try before you a found this one ? And how much money you spend for it ? On links i found price from 200 usd to 99F. But 99f it 150 usd ?
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@kas1e
I've tried the MV1200, ScandoublerFF, Scandex and
an XGA-VGA box. The last one was really c**p!
I've purchased the CM345S for 150 Euro + 15 shipping
costs from this online store:
www.bcsistem.com/conversores/cm345s.htm
but there are also others who sell it. Look at the
links I've placed on top of this post.
:-)
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amidude, no any problems with custom house for you i hope ?:)
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kas1e wrote:
amidude, no any problems with custom house for you i hope ?:)
I'm not sure what you mean by that... :-?
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As always my {bleep}i english :) customhouse=cuctoms ,etc
Organization which cheked all incoming from other countres :)
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@AmiDude: Did you try any other devices than your Amiga? I am wondering if my C64 would work with it. The resolution 320x240 should not be a problem since it works with the Amiga.
The problem could be that the C64 delivers an S-Video Signal over SCART which maybe needs to be "downgraded" to Composite first.
Would be great if I could use the CM-345S as a universal scandoubler, not just for the Amiga. It's quite pricey...
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@humppa
I don't own an C64, so I cannot test it, but the
CM345S scandoubles any incoming 15Khz signal to 31Khz.
So all 15Khz devices such as DVD, Video, any game-console and the C64 should work just fine. The only thing is
that you need a SCART cable with a different plug on the
other end to connect it. It's an universal SD/FF allright!
:-)
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@Amidude
What do you mean about 15->31 ? In tech doc said '60'. My internal scandoubler give me 31 (is suxx as ia said). I hope cms35 take 15, scandoubles to 31, and fixing to 60 ?
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@kas1e
It converts 15 to 31Khz signal input. But it gives a 50/60Hz frame/refresh rate conversion.
:-)
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Does the refresh rate of 60hz affect the scrolling in PAL-games somehow?
I remember when using my crappy VGA-box games with ultra-smooth scrolling (e.g. Turrican or SOTB) used to stutter a bit due to the conversion from 50 to 60hz.
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@humppa
I didn't encounter any problems when playing
games such as Galaga, TurricanII or ProjectX
on my A600HD with 68030/40Mhz.
Here's what the description says:
Features:
* High quality video scaler
* Supports SCART RGB/composiet input
* Supports PC output resolution up to XGA (1024x768)
* 50/60 Hz frame rate conversion ensures glitch-free display of Pal source on any monitors
*3D motion adaptive de-interlacing ensures jaggy-free picture
*Adaptive non-linear noise reduction
*Luminance/Color Transient improvement
*OSD Controls: Brightness, Contrast, Tint, Color and
sharpness adjustment
BTW:
You can't compare an ordinary VGA-box with this superior
CM345S device. I once had one, and I returned it to the store for a refund!
:-)
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I'm quite tempted by one of these boxes even though the price is quite high.
I'm probably stating the obvious to some people, but since it hasn't been touched upon yet... If you're using a TFT monitor, any resolution other than it's native resolution will look bad, so if you're planning on using one of these with a TFT monitor, make sure that it's native resolution is one of the ones supported. CRT monitors won't have this problem because they don't have a native resolution.
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Yep, I already thought about that since I am concerning to buy a 20" TFT. The idea is to hook everything up to this TFT (C64, Amiga, PC). Although my CRT really serves me well (Nokia 21"), it is way too bulky and takes up nearly 75% of my desk space.
Since the TFT has a native resolution of 1600x1200, I won't find a converter box in the consumer-price-range anyway that supports this resolution. Most TFTs nowadays are 1280x1024, it would be nice if a future version of the CM345S would support it (some cheaper VGA boxes already do!).
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@parapete
The CM345S doubles the horizontal frequency of all 15Khz native Amiga screen modes (Lowres, Hires, Super-Hires, Euro36) by connecting it to the RGB/SCART-input. All other modes (including Multiscan) are passed through by connecting it to the VGA PC-input. This is the same for
both CRT or TFT monitors. There's no difference between them.
:-)
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Take a look what zx6r6 has to say about this after
testing it with his TFT-monitor:
Aaaaargh....I don't believe it! After spending a fortune on boxes I thought I'd give my CM345S another try as your still singing its praises.
I tried it on my pc TFT monitor this time as opposed to my (CRT) Iiyama pro 454. Bl**dy thing works a treat!!! Being as my scart lead isnt shielded I can only assume that the Iiyama interferes with it in the same way that it does my wireless mouse and keyboard. Maybe this box isn't as tollerant as my current box with regards to noise. I would recommend this box and would say that the quality is almost as good as my internal scan doubler/flicker fixer in my other miggys, maybe it'll be as good with a better scart lead!
So, no problems when using a TFT-monitor!
:-)
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There are two potential problems when using a TFT monitor with VGA/RGB boxes.
1) Most TFTs do not accept vertical scan frequency as low as 50hz. So you won't get a picture. This only applies to very old & cheap VGA boxes and to Amiga scandoublers (no to the CM345S since it converts to 60hz!).
2) When the VGA/RGB box cannot output the native TFT resolution, the TFT interpolates and the picture will get somehow blurry. In this case, the sharpness you will get from CRTs will be much better.
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@humppa wrote:
When the VGA/RGB box cannot output the native TFT resolution, the TFT interpolates and the picture will get somehow blurry. In this case, the sharpness you will get from CRTs will be much better.
Did you personally test the CM345S yourself with a TFT-monitor?
If not, how can you be so sure? zx6r6 sure did test
the thing and seems to be very satisfied with the result.
It's not some cheap VGA-box.
This is what the manual says:
Output can be set to VGA, SVGA or XGA depending on your requirements, and can be viewed on a standard CRT monitor, LCD monitor, Plasma screen or projector.
So, it works also with LCD-TFT monitors!
:-)
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Did you personally test the CM345S yourself with a TFT-monitor? If not, how can you be so sure?
Sure about what? The only thing I am sure about is that TFTs *have to* interpolate to display an input signal fullscreen when it is not the native resolution of the TFT.
This is a purely TFT-related technical fact, that is not related to the CM345S.
Most 17" and 19" TFT have a native resolution of 1280x1024, so any signal which is input below (like XGA from CM345S) will result in a considerable drop in sharpness.
It's not some cheap VGA-box.
I never said something like that.
So, it works also with LCD-TFT monitors!
Did I say something different? Nope.
I was just pointing out that the device is unable to output 1280x1024 resolutions. Therefore most TFTs (>=17") will have to interpolate to properly display the signal fullscreen.
If zx6r6 is satisfied with the result - fine! I think I would also be "satisfied" with the CM345S (esp. when comparing it to VGA boxes with no RGB input). The quality is ok for playing games, even if resolutions on TFTs are interpolated.
For workbench-stuff however, I will rather rely on the Voodoo...
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@humppa
Well, I'm glad you pointed that all out! :-)
humppa wrote:
The quality is ok for playing games, even if resolutions on TFTs are interpolated.
For workbench-stuff however, I will rather rely on the Voodoo...
Yes, I understand that, but this thread is all about
an external SD/FF.
BTW: If you want a better picture quality, you can always use a standard CRT-PC monitor instead of a TFT monitor.
:-)
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Dudes...
I just ordered that Presenter 1 and I will be getting the SCART lead off ebay.
Here's what I am going to do: I am going to compare the native AGA screens as displayed through my PIV, to native AGA screens as shown through the unit. Then, if I get the time I will make split-screen composites of the two displays as seen on my 17" CRT, and post those in the Photo Album.
Before anyone asks why I got that when I have a PIV: I have an A500 and a PS2 that I will try too. If it all goes well, I may ditch this M1438s monitor for good (it has an intermittent red fault anyway)
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@X-ray
OK dude! Welcome to newly-formed CM345S club! :lol:
:banana:
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Yep...I just await the unit and the cable. Then we will see what is what, ja?
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i can't say anything, not having tryed it personally but IMHO this device seems the right one :-)
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humppa wrote:The quality is ok for playing games, even if resolutions on TFTs are interpolated.
For workbench-stuff however, I will rather rely on the Voodoo...
Yes, I understand that, but this thread is all about an external SD/FF.
...well I consider VGA-passtrough (for the Voodoo) also a feature of the CM345S: I don't have to switch cables or use a separate VGA-switch.
BTW: If you want a better picture quality, you can always use a standard CRT-PC monitor instead of a TFT monitor.
That's basically what I was saying in my last two posts.:crazy:
It just would have been great to finally be able to remove this bulky CRT from my desk...
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Blatent plug I know but I'm selling mine on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CM-345S-Presenter-1-SCART-RGB-to-XGA-Converter_W0QQitemZ8230052879QQcategoryZ98928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) if anyones interested! :)
Just to confirm that this does work on TFT's and I've used my Amiga,Atari St,Gamecube,Xbox,PS2 and C64 on it.
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@EVERYONE
For all of you who have bought this unit or plan to buy it...........How about you thank the company? let them know its for an Amiga!! let them know where all these sales will be coming from..tell them to tell their boss...........and maybe ask them to release a smaller version that takes power from the
parralel port or something.....
I think its encouragement and necessary!
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I might just do that, but first I wanna test it.
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Good idea! :idea:
Here's the link to the manufacturer:
www.cypress.com.tw/profile.html
...and here's the link for the distributors:
www.cypress.com.tw/distributor.html
I will send them an email with suggestions as
soon as possible.
:-)
-
@amidude
What happens to 31Khz AGA modes (Multiscan, DBLPAL) if the Amiga output is connected to the RGB/SCART input? are they passed through?
I ask because, if not, one has to unplug/plug cables when swithching from a 15Khz mode to a 31Khz or the other way round. I hope that's not the case.
-
@darkcoder
Like I mentioned before: The device's RGB/SCART port
only scandoubles 15Khz>31Khz. Therefore it recognizes
only 15Khz signals like all other Scandoubler/Flickerfixers.
For 31Khz> passtrough you will need the VGA PC-in port.
Why would you switch frequently from 15 to 31Khz anyway? :-?
-
AmiDude wrote: Why would you switch frequently from 15 to 31Khz anyway? :-?
For example if you are running your WB in Productivity Mode and starting games with Whdload and later on switching back to WB. Maybe in this case a VGA splitter/switcher could work so that you can plug Amiga's signal in both SCART and VGA passtrough inputs.
-
@humppa
I guess it would be handy if one just use
Workbench in 15Khz screenmode... :-D
I don't know if there are any external SD/FF's
out there that passtrough 31Khz> screenmodes.
A splitter/switcher is a possibility though...
-
If I am very lucky I will get a Cypress CM345S tomorrow for testing purposes. I will then post here about my findings.
As an alternative to the CM345S, one might consider the Daewoo DSA-9310E which has been mentioned in this thread:
http://tinyurl.com/bwt54 by zx6r6.
It has 2xSCART, 2xAV(Cinch), S-Video, PC+2xAudio inputs and a TV/Cable tuner.
zx6r6 wrote:
For your info I've tried :-
V-Stream xpert tv box hi-res (about£50) - dreafull all round!
Vision VTB100 (£120) - jumpy picture
Cypress tech scart rgb to xga convertor (£100) - very fuzzy but useable for games(just)
Daewoo DSA-9310E - best of all but not even tv modulator quality!
Theyve all been tried through both composite and RGB scart. The vtb100 and v-stream by going into a Keene electronics rgb scart to svideo convertor.
I've since bitten the bullet and paid a fortune for an internal scan doubler and flicker fixer on ebay. Just wish I'd done that in the first place!
-
Well, once my disability check comes in I think I may have to buy one of these. I've been loking at similar products off and on for awhile now, trying to figure out which is best. This is one I put on my "A" list. Isn't it ironic, though, boys and girls, that one of the reasons the Amiga did not do so well is that computer freaks considered it to be 'merely a game machine' and now a device which is designed to help gamers put their games on their computer monitor is gonna help a lot of ageing Amigas get their display up?! This means I will have spent upwards of $300 to get my Beast's display onto my NEC XV17+ monitor. Not an outrageous price I suppose. Thanks...
-
I finally received my CM-345S today. However, it DOES NOT WORK with my RGB to SCART cable!
The only thing I am getting is a white picture. It also displays "PAL SECAM" in the top left, which I find quite odd.
Connecting the Amiga via a Composite to SCART adapter is not a problem. The picture quality however is extremely fuzzy and there is a lot of ghosting. No surprise - it's just a Composite/Video signal.
My C64 also works with the device. Picture quality is not as great as with the television, but it's ok.
I just want to get RGB through SCART working! That's basically why I bought the CM-345S.
I am suspecting the Amiga SCART cable which is maybe not wired correctly or the CM-345S is expecting different input at certain Pins.
@AmiDude: It would be VERY nice if you could check the pin-outs of your SCART cable. Since I found different circuits for this cable on the internet, I am unsure if I have the right one:
http://pinouts.ru/data/AmigaScart_pinout.shtml
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_rgbscart.html
I am especially unsure about PIN16, which is "Switch RGB signal/Blanking". This is usually connected to PIN22 at the Amiga (+12V) using a 150 Ohm resistor.
I did not find a resistor in my cable and it is connected to PIN23 (+5V) instead of PIN22 (+12V). If this could be the problem?
Would it make a difference to RGB if I would disconnect PIN20 (Composite Sync)? Just to be sure that no Composite signal is used.
Thanks for any help!!!
-
Ok, trying to narrow down what the problem is.
First observation: It's not the cable!
I connected my old A500 to the CM-345S and it gave me a very nice picture.
Then I measured the video pinout of both Amigas. The difference was that my towered A1200 did not deliver +5V on Pin23!!! The +5V line is needed for SCART since it "tells" the CM-345S that it's actually a RGB and not (when 0V) a Composite signal.
This just adds to the various power-issues I have with this mainboard. The other weird (off-topic) problem is that I am unable to write to floppy disks! Reading works fine, but writing/copying is not possible.
It seems that although the +5V rail is plugged into the power connector, it is lost at a certain point on the mainboard. I think I will finally exchange this MB. Hopefully I can soon enjoy the CM-345S with full RGB...
-
@humppa
First take a look at this SCART-link:
http://kmt.hku.nl/~pieter/HARD/MON/MON.html#amiga
You have to disconnect the following pins:
1-3-10-12-14-18-19
It's very important that you disconnect pin 19!
(Video Output Composite) Otherwise the CM345S
is getting a composite signal instead of RGB!
That's causing the fuzzy picture.
Leave pin 16 alone, but you can try to disconnect
pin 20 (Video Input Composite). My pin20 is still
connected, but I'm sure it's allright to disconnect it.
The "PAL SECAM" text is displayed for a few seconds
when getting a SCART-in signal, it's just an indicator
that the device is getting a signal. Nothing to worry about.
If all works well, you should get a nice sharp picture.
Also, don't forget to adjust the color, brightness and
contrast control to get even a more nicer picture.
:-)
-
I think the problem is all due to the connection between PIN 23 (Amiga) to PIN 16 (SCART).
On my old Amiga I am getting a nice sharp picture. Thats because the CM-345S gets more than 1V on PIN 16 and therefore switches to RGB input.
Using the same cable on the A1200 does not work. Thats because the A1200 might have some faulty/fried ICs or some other flaws. It delivers something like -0.15V on PIN 23 (should be at +5V) and PIN 21 is -1.2V instead of -12V.
I already checked the mainboard many times, but I am unable to find the problem. I guess getting a new motherboard is the only solution...
P.S.: How is Pin 16 connected on your cable? Using a resistor to get it into the 1-3V range or simply to Pin 23 (+5V)?
-
Pin16 on the SCART plug is directly connected
to pin23(+5V). I've tested this device on my
A600, A4000 and A2500 whit good results, so I
must presume that your A1200 has serious problems
like you mentioned already before.
-
@bubba wrote:
Any idea if the color space is 16-bit or 24-bit? Perhaps someone could open this case and identify the video processing chips. I'm sure the specs could be found on the Internet.
OK, I've uploaded a photo of the inside of the CM345S:
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=1176
I also found some specs of the main processor of the board.
It's called the "Smartasic STV108". Take a look here:
www.smartasic.com/PDF/STV108_Feature_Sheet.PDF
It seems it can handle 24bit input-output indeed!
:-D
-
Humppa:
where did you buy the cm345s? What's the price?
Best REgards
Rod
-
@Rod_cl: I bought it here in Germany at www.normawandler.de for 175 Euros. Thats a bit more expensive than this Spanish shop: http://www.bcsistem.com/conversores/cm345s.htm
But they had higher shipping costs and I had the possibility to return it within 2 weeks without having a reason.
-
Thanks humppa.
I'll buy one in a couple of weeks. Is it really working good for Workbench usage?
Bye
Rod
-
@Rod_cl
Take a look at this pictures I uploaded:
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?u=3445
All the pictures are taken with the CM345S connected
to my A630HD. In real the games pictures are sharper.
If you're looking for a good external SD/FF, then this
is it! I've tested a few other SD/FF's, but this one
beats 'm all!
:-)
-
Rod_cl wrote:
Is it really working good for Workbench usage?
Well, since it does not work with the RGB output of my Amiga, the Workbench looks really horrible because I am stuck with using the Compsite output: Colour bleeding, horizontal lines and a fuzzy picture.
My Amiga does not output +5V on Pin23 of the RGB connector - I don't know why. To put it simple, the CM345S "needs" this signal (well actually something in the range +1V and +3V) to recognize that the signal is RGB and not Composite (below +1V).
I think this is a problem specific to my mainboard - I'll exchange it and then hope I'll get RGB finally working...
-
I've had a good ol' look at this thread and think perhaps a little video overview may be in order. I have worked in the video industry for some 5 years now (as a DVD Author and Graphic Designer) so this is a subject I know very well. So here goes.
As far as signal standards are concerned the Amiga outputs RGB, Composite, RF and of course native vga modes.
Composite carries all colour, Luminescence & Sync on only 1 wire with audio carried seperately on it's own wires. Composite is CRAP, let's get this right now, when I say crap I mean it! Don't use composite at all unless you have no other choice except RF (tv aerial) as RF is composite plus Audio, modulated into a radio frequency then demodulated at the other end (the display) and is doubly crap.
Component (yuv)
Seperate cables for Colour, Luminescence etc.. but not a standard on the Amiga anyway and it is in the name of component that causes confusion as RGB is also known as Component RGB.
SVideo (SVHS)
I'm not even going to begin to explain how the signals are contrived here, it's not quite as simple as putting colour or Luminescence on a certain wire, Svid mixes them up in order to squeeze in more information for the number of wires, very clever. A good signal but inferior to RGB and not a standard Amiga output (except on CD32).
Component (RGB)
The Amiga's best out put. Seperate wires for Red, Green and Blue etc.. Use this at all times if pos.
Native VGA.
OK so the amiga can go to a vga display with no more than a £15 adapter, the signal here is not converted as the adapter is just putting the signals to the correct pins but as we should all know this is no good for all those games using video modes.
Well that may be the signal standards but they can be plugged up in a variety of ways. SCART is an interesting option and even if some people don't like it, it is a versatile plug that can carry RGB, composite or SVideo and Audio. This is bidirectional (inputs and outputs on seperate pins) and supports other features such as line 21 information (this can carry information such as Aspect ratio). Be very carefull when buying leads, buy "all pins connected" leads (often sold as RGB Scart leads) or you may find yourself with a lead that will only carry a composite signal. Another point to note is just becuase a device has Scart it does not mean that the signal (either input or output) is of the same standard as another device with Scart. eg..Amiga to TV with 2 Scart sockets. My Sony TV has 2 Scart sockets 1 of them carries RGB and composite but the other carries SVHS and composite. If I plugged in an A1200 it would go in the RGB (best signal) but a CD32 would require the second (SVHS) Scart as this is the best CD32 output (unless it has been upgraded of course).
BNC.
Used to carry all video standards but most known for YUV and RGB.BNC RGB input is available on such displays as the NEC 1801 Pivot Multisync (no flicker fixer required, this baby takes native video). It would not be too hard to wire up an Amiga to have RGB on BNC and still use the VGA. Just take apart an Amiga VGA adapter and solder the extra wires for the BNC.
As far as using a conversion from RGB Scart to XGA is concerned...I have RGB on my 1084 and that's fine for video resolutions. If I need high res I use VGA. At the momment I have to unplug but I don't see any real problems in wiring a switch. I would expect RGB to XGA to give you a certain amount of Generation Loss but if the conversion is done by scan doubling then there should be no loss at all. I'll stick to two displays myself as I allready have them.
-
humppa wrote:
I think the problem is all due to the connection between PIN 23 (Amiga) to PIN 16 (SCART).
On my old Amiga I am getting a nice sharp picture. Thats because the CM-345S gets more than 1V on PIN 16 and therefore switches to RGB input.
Using the same cable on the A1200 does not work. Thats because the A1200 might have some faulty/fried ICs or some other flaws. It delivers something like -0.15V on PIN 23 (should be at +5V) and PIN 21 is -1.2V instead of -12V.
I already checked the mainboard many times, but I am unable to find the problem. I guess getting a new motherboard is the only solution...
P.S.: How is Pin 16 connected on your cable? Using a resistor to get it into the 1-3V range or simply to Pin 23 (+5V)?
Take a look at this. pin 23 is not used.
http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pincabtvm_amiga_scart (http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pincabtvm_amiga_scart)
-
@Tripitaka
Your right about the difference in RGB-SCART cables.
I've used a different cable before the cable I use now,
and that cable only passed trough a composite signal.
The picture quality was really horrible! Now I'm using
a real RGB-SCART cable wit all pins connected except for some non RGB-related ones.
@Everybody
If you're planning to buy this CM345S device, beware
of using the wrong RGB-SCART cable, because some of
them only passes trough a crappy composite signal!
:-)
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Take a look at this. pin 23 is not used.
http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pincabtvm_amiga_scart (http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pincabtvm_amiga_scart)
On my RGB->SCART connector (and the one of AmiDude), Pin 23 IS used.
There are actually two ways of feeding the "Hello-it's-an-RGB-current" to SCART Pin 16:
1) By using Amiga Pin 22 (+12V) and connect it to SCART-Pin 16 using a 150 Ohm resistor.
2) Connecting Amiga Pin 23 (+5V) directly to SCART-Pin 16. The 5 Volts are a bit out of the specs (+1V to 3V for RGB signals), but it works in most cases.
-
Can somebody who actually owns one of these devices clear things up a little. Does this device actually work as well as, say, a DCE scan double/Flicker fixer?? Will it display _ALL_ native Amiga resolutions across the board...including Productivity and Super Hires Workbench modes? Or is it limited to 320x256 lowres game-type modes....
Can someone do some tests using it with all rsolutions and post your findings??? that would be very useful....
-
@dillinger
You can find an answer to all your questions,
if you read the whole thread from the start!
It's all explained before...
And yes, it's a real SD/FF!
-
but i can't really be bothered...it's a very long/technical thread - you know. :-)
-
Chaps...
I have the unit and a scart cable and I did some quick tests, and I must advise you NOT to get it just yet. I am doing more tests but so far the CM345S isn't living up to my expectations. Just have to iron out a few variables here, but hold the phone as it were...
-
X-ray wrote: I am doing more tests but so far the CM345S isn't living up to my expectations. Just have to iron out a few variables here, but hold the phone as it were...
Now I am curious... Hope you are not running Composite over SCART though.
AmiDude wrote: I also found some specs of the main processor of the board. It's called the "Smartasic STV108". Take a look here:
www.smartasic.com/PDF/STV108_Feature_Sheet.PDF
It seems it can handle 24bit input-output indeed!
Yeah - and it supports PiP and higher refresh rates. But why didn't they use these features? Too lazy to program?
-
@humppa wrote:
Yeah - and it supports PiP and higher refresh rates. But why didn't they use these features? Too lazy too program?
Why not ask them?
>>>>> www.cypress.com.tw/contact.html <<<<<
@X-ray
Make sure you DON'T get a composite-SCART signal.
It has to be real RGB-SCART for getting the best quality.
:-)
-
@ Amidude
Here is a test that I would like you to try please:
1) Connect your A4000 to the CYP like this: PIV output connected to PC input on the CYP, and the scart cable connected from your 23-pin video out, to the scart connector on the CYP.
2) Boot the A4000 and change the screenmode to PAL or NTSC HiRes Laced.
3) Swap the feeds with the 'input' button on the CYP remote control, checking the fonts on your screen as you do.
When I do this on my A4000T, the PIV screen as passed through unaltered by the CYP easily beats the CYP scandoubled HiRes screen through the scart. Even when I tweak the CYP settings (contrast, brightness, colour and tint) I can't get an image that doesn't have softened and fuzzy edges.
Now I don't think it is my cable, but I want to know what your test reveals. Do you get fuzzy edges, and 'crawling' of patterns on the CYP signal?
Just for giggles I connected my PS2 to the CYP. This is definitely a composite through scart cable, and that image was terrible. It was bad for games and it was bad for DVDs. Much worse than the Amiga scart image. Secondly, when I connect the Amiga via its scart cable directly to my TV (it has scart) the image is surprisingly good and only suffers bad flicker from super HiRes laced screen modes. But the edges are sharp, the image isn't fuzzy, that's why I think my cable is the real deal. I got it on Ebay from Chaotic Jelly (they sell all sorts of retro stuff).
So let's see what your test reveals.
As a matter of interest I loaded up DPaint V and made a gradient fill (red). Switching from PIV to CYP did not reveal any loss of gradation or posterisation, but it is difficult to tweak the CYP settings to get the same contrast/colour of the PIV image. Nonetheless I am pretty certain that the CYP does not short-change on colour.
All that remains is the following:
1) See if my tests are matched by Amidude
2) If so, then the question we need to ask is whether the CYP's quality beats that of other FF/SDs out there, whether internal or external. My tentative evaluation at the moment is to say that the CYP fails to match the PIV scandoubler by quite a long shot.
-
@X-Ray: It would be great if you could open up your SCART-cable an report the schematics here.
Since we all have different results, it might be wise to compare how the cables are wired up.
I suspect that the CM-345S is quite picky about that and will process the Composite instead of RGB-signal if SCART Pin16 does not get the proper voltage.
When opening up your connectors, which of the two methods (mentioned above) applies to your cable? Are there any resistors in the cable for getting the right voltage on Pin16?
The patterns you mention appear only in Composite mode on my setup. These are mostly red horizontal lines that are crwaling over the screen. I made two screenshots, but they did not appear yet in the Gallery. Note: The Tint only works for NTSC modes.
-
@ humppa
I opened it up and here is what I found:
1) There are resistors in place at pin 16 and pin 20
2) There is a connecting wire between pin 4 and pin 7
If you like I can take pics of this setup, and email them to you.
-
Now thats a strange wiring! Is that really the SCART connector you are looking at?
X-ray wrote: 1) There are resistors in place at pin 16 and pin 20
There should be resistors at pin 8 and pin 16! Pin 20 (at SCART connector) is the Video/FBAS-signal. Why should you place a resistor there?
2) There is a connecting wire between pin 4 and pin 7
RGB blue is connected to Ground (Audio). Huh? I am wondering that you are getting a picture at all! Did you compare this setup to just using the Composite Out of the Amiga? Then you could compare if there is any difference between Composite and your strange RGB(?)-SCART cable. There are cheap plugs, where you have Video+Audio on the one side and SCART on the other.
If you like I can take pics of this setup, and email them to you.
Yes, that would be nice! Maybe you could also post the screenshots in the gallery on amiga.org.
-
@X-ray
check again the pins position numbering . . . its easy to mix things, depending from the point of view.
Pin 20, in a RGB+CSync enviroment, is used as Composite Sync.
I've read somewhere, that this device uses "SyncOnGreen" even if i highly doubt about this!
http://www.bcsistem.com/conversores/cm345s.htm
"RGB con el sincro en el verde mediante euroconector."
-
It seems that there are two variants of the CM-345S. One with "standard" RGB:
http://www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/100.html
and the other with RGB Sync on green:
http://www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/102.html
-
@X-ray
I'm pretty sure that you have the wrong SCART-pinout.
Here's how my SCART looks like: The following pins are
connected:
2-4-5-6-7-8-9-11-13-15-16-17-20
A ground wire is connected to pin5
NOT connected:
1-3-10-12-14-18-19
Also, on my SCART wires aren't any resistors!
When I do the A4000 test, like you mentioned, I don't
have any fuzzy edges. And you must keep in mind that
the CM345S is an external SD/FF; You simply can't
compare it with the superb PicassoIV. I know, because
I own one and nothing can beats the PIV! I'm only saying
that this device (if using the right SCART-pinout)is better than the (external) ones I tested before. It seems that it all depends on what kind of SCART-pinout you've got.For me it all works fine, and I'm getting a sharp picture out of it. Try to make the same SCART-pinout like mine. Then all should work just fine!
:-)
-
@humppa wrote:
It seems that there are two variants of the CM-345S. One with "standard" RGB:......and the other with RGB Sync on green:
Yes, I've noticed that too. I was wondering what the difference is between them? :-?
-
AmiDude wrote: Yes, I've noticed that too. I was wondering what the difference is between them? :-?
The name says it all. One accepts both RGB and Composite input and the other just RGB Sync on green.
The latter signal is mainly used in old fixed-frequency workstation monitors as far as I know. Maybe Tripitaka can give us some insight here?
-
@X-ray wrote:
Secondly, when I connect the Amiga via its scart cable directly to my TV (it has scart) the image is surprisingly good and only suffers bad flicker from super HiRes laced screen modes. But the edges are sharp, the image isn't fuzzy, that's why I think my cable is the real deal.
Nope, you're wrong about you thinking that you're cable is
the real deal...
Let me explain; I've got 2 SCART-cables with different
pin-outs. The one I use now with the CM345S is a REAL
RGB-SCART cable with good picture quality on my PC-monitor, but when I'm using it to connect my Amiga with the TV-set, I'm not getting any picture at all!
The other cable however, when connected to my TV, gives my a sharp picture like you mentioned, but when I use it with the CM345S on my PC-monitor, the image quality is dramaticly reduced! Very strange, huh?!
The cable you got is only good for use with a TV-set.
Not for using it with such a device like the CM345S.
:-)
-
AmiDude wrote: The one I use now with the CM345S is a REAL RGB-SCART cable with good picture quality on my PC-monitor, but when I'm using it to connect my Amiga with the TV-set, I'm not getting any picture at all!
This rather sounds as if your TV does not support RGB (a lot of older TVs do not!).
The other cable however, when connected to my TV, gives my a sharp picture like you mentioned, but when I use it with the CM345S on my PC-monitor, the image quality is dramaticly reduced!
This sounds as if the cable only puts through Composite video. Although it is surprising then if image quality is good on the TV.
Have you comared the wiring in both cables? That would be very interesting!
-
@humppa
OK, this is the pinout of the second SCART cable
I've got:
Connected:
2-4-6-7-8-11-15-16-17-18-20
Pin20 got a resistor.
Pin17 is connected to pin18
A ground wire is connected to the shield.
NOT connected:
1-3-5-9-13-19 > NOTE: Pins 5-9-13 Have to be connected
for real RGB signal. That's why you get a fuzzy image
when used with the CM345S, when not connected. But on my Philips TV (2 years old), it gives a sharp picture.
For more info, look at the chapter "SCART Interface"
on this link:
http://kmt.hku.nl/~pieter/HARD/MON/MON.html#amiga
:-)
-
pin 17 connected to pin 18= Composite automatic switch.
Copy the same pins layout of the working Scart.
And then . . . a resistor on pin 20?!?
EDIT- just to semplify things . . . you have no need of any automatic switch facility with this scan-doubler.
You have the in-built manual switch to chose Composite or RGB IN.
Those automatic switches/blanking, are used by monitor/TVsets (and yes, some-like Sony- requires a resistor to get it working)
-
@Everyone
To prevent any confusion on which SCART-Pinout
is the best for use with the CM345S, here is
the good pin-out:
connected:
2-4-5-6-7-8-9-11-13-15-16-17-20
A ground wire is connected to pin5
NOT connected:
1-3-10-12-14-18-19
********************
Bad pinout for use with TV only:
Connected:
2-4-6-7-8-11-15-16-17-18-20
Pin20 got a resistor.
Pin17 is connected to pin18
A ground wire is connected to the shield.
NOT connected:
1-3-5-9-13-19
:-)
-
@Framiga wrote:
you have no need of any automatic switch facility with this scan-doubler.You have the in-built manual switch to chose Composite or RGB IN.Those automatic switches/blanking, are used by monitor/TVsets (and yes, some-like Sony- requires a resistor to get it working)
I was just explaining that by showing the pin-outs of
the different SCART-cables...
:-)
-
@ Thread
Okay, here is my pinout in detail (and just to verify that I know which pins are which, pin 20 is the one at the angled corner of the connector):
Connected: 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17, 20
Not connected: 1, 3, 10, 12, 14, 18, 19
Cross connections:
(Framiga you were right, I needed spectacles, it is not 4 + 7 as I stated earlier)
5 -- 4
|
9
|
13
|
17
|
ground
(grounding wire on 17)
resistors on 16 and 20
pins 5, 9, 13 and 17 are not directly connected from the cable, but get their connections from pin 4
So, in total, I have 9 wires + 1 ground coming out of the cable, and all the other connections are cross-connections.
Now what sort of cable is this?
edit: @ humppa -- pictures won't be useful, not unless I take about 8, and I don't want to spam the photo album with that. If you PM me your email I'll send them to you directly.
-
@X-ray wrote:
pins 5, 9, 13 and 17 are not directly connected from the cable, but get their connections from pin 4
That's realy weird...Because pin4 is an audio signal...
:-?
Looks like your not getting a real RGB signal.
-
@ AmiDude
Well, I looked it up a bit more and that whole 4-5-9-13-17 setup seems okay, it is just grounding and it fits in with the CYP pin specs and the Scart pin specs according to Karl Jeacle (http://www.jeacle.ie/pub/articles/scart/). My scart cable has separate left and right RCA audio connectors that originate from the 23 pin D-connector of the cable.
The only thing I am not sure about is the resistor on pin 16. Does this tell the CYP I have Scart RGB or does it tell it that I have composite?
Resistor on pin 20 seems normal, according to Karl Jeacle.
-
Have a look at this website:
http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/index.html
and scroll a bit down to read about the "SCART Control Signals".
In some cases it will even work without connecting Pin 16. This is a very simple cabling: http://www.jeacle.ie/pub/articles/scart/
-
if you need to use this cable with the CM345S scandoubler, you have NO need to the RGB switching on pin 16.
-
@ humppa
These are the pinouts of the SCART connector on the CYP side:
1. Audio O/P 1, Right Channel
2. Audio I/P 1, Right Channel
3. Audio O/P, Left Channel
4. GND (Audio)
5. GND (Blue)
6. Audio I/P 2, Left Channel
7. RGB I/P, Blue (B)
8. Switch Siggnal Video (No use)
9. GND (green)
10. Not connected
11. RGB I/P, Green (G)
12. Not conected
13. GND (red)
14. Not connected
15. RGB I/P, Red (R)
16. Switch Signal RGB (blanking)
17. GND (video)
18. GND (blanking)
19. Video O/P
20 Video I/P
21. Shield
So it would appear that if I do have a problem with my Scart cable, it is likely to involve pin 16, 17, 18, or 20.
Does that sound right?
-
@ Framiga
This pin 16 business is what I want to clear up. Currently it is connected, with a resistor. What should I do:
1) Disconnect it?
2) Take out the resistor?
-
Framiga wrote: if you need to use this cable with the CM345S scandoubler, you have NO need to the RGB switching on pin 16.
In the manual of my CM-345S there is a schematic of the SCART connector. Pin 8 is shown as "no use" while Pin 16 is "Switch Signal RGB (Blanking)".
The fact that the CM-345S does not work on one of my Amigas which cannot supply +5V to Pin 16 makes me believe that Pin 16 DOES matter.
-
I'm not using any resistors at all,
so I guess it's allright to take it out.
You can always try it.
:-)
-
If you leave the connections as they are and just take out the resistors, it would just mean that more voltage is input put to the CM-345S.
Note that the cabling is different when using no resistors (pin16 is either unconnected or connected to Amiga Pin 23 so that the voltage is lower).
Just be careful not to fry your CM-345S!
-
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay...
So I now have three options:
1) Disconnect 16
2) Take out only the resistor (possibly damage the CYP)
3) Take out the resistor and rewire the Amiga side of the wire that currently connects to pin 16.
:-?
-
Try and fry :lol:
I would start with 1) and see what happens. Then I would try 2) and rewire to Pin 23 on the Amiga side. 3) does not make any sense - why should you put even more voltage to Pin 16?
-
@ humppa
My number (3) is the same as your number number (2), just a wording issue. Anyway I'll try the disconnect first.
-
I've just disconnected pin 8, 16 and 17.
It seems that they had no use for incoming
RGB-signal and the picture quality is even
slightly improved! It's also save to take
out any resistors. I'm having no problem at all!
:-)
Edit:>
Maybe some useless (composite) wires are causing
some sort of interfence with the RGB wires?
It's better to disconnect them.
-
Interesting... So did you also try to disconnect Pin 20 (Composite Sync)? Or is this Sync signal also needed for RGB?
We definately need some radio/video technicians here!
@X-ray: I mixed it up. I would have tried in this order: 1>3>2
-
I've also tried to disconnect pin20, but then
There's no picture. So I connected it again...
Tomorrow I'm gonna rewiring that other SCART cable
I've got, connecting only the 3RGB wires + 3 RGB-ground
+ video I/P and disable the audio wires.
There's something else I'm gonna try too: Take a look at the picture of the inside of the CM345S:
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=1176=38
Notice the little purple wire that's connecting pin11
to pin 20 on the back of the SCART connector.
Strange...what's it doing there? I'm gonna disconnect it,
and then let's see what happens!
I'm just experimenting! :-D
-
The experiments continue here too:
I found out that the wire that connects to pin 16 of my SCART cable is in fact coming from pin 23 on the Amiga side. So it is 5V. Lucky it was the only black wire there because I have no multimeter or any skills to use it.
I opened the SCART side of my cable and disconnected the wire to pin 16 (desoldered it between the resistor and the pin). Then plugged it (open) into my CYP. Did three tests, all with a PAL High Res Laced screenmode:
1) Left it disconnected. Result: Grey screen (all resolutions of the CYP)
2) Reconnect. Result: unsharpness as described before, on all resolutions of the CYP.
3) Reconnect, but bypass resistor. Result: unsharpness marginally worse on 1024 x 768 resolution, but unsharpness lessened (better picture quality) on 800 x 600 and on 640 x 480 on the CYP.
So at the moment I am going to resolder that wire back to pin 16, but I am going to ditch the resistor.
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Some other info:
The unit has to draw power for it to act as a pass through for your PC. This is understandable because it isn't a mechanical monitor switcher. I can vouch that it passes that signal through completely untouched. There is no ghosting or image degradation of any kind. The same applies to my passed-through PIV signal. This means you could run a big box Amiga with A PIV through here as well as a wedge (A500 etc) with a SCART cable, and switch between the two with the remote control of the CYP. This is a plus. I don't know what the difference in power consumption is between the unit being 'off' and being on, but in both cases the unit draws power and the central light is on.
-
@AmiDude:
The composite signal in the scart cable carries both the horizontal and vertical sync (it can also in addition to the syncs carry an image-signal) and without it, it will ofcourse not work.
The resistors and pin 8 and 16 are used to tell TVs to automatically switch to the scart-input it is connected to and to use the RGB signals for the image instead of the image that might be supplied in the composite signal. Check this (http://www.hardwarebook.net/cable/av/amigascart.html) page.
/Patrik
-
@patrik
Yeah, I know. But I wanna rewiring my RGB-SCART cable
to get the best picture quality when using it with
my CM345S SD/FF device on a PC-monitor. Pin 8 & 16
have no use when I'm connecting it to the CM345S,
because this device automaticly recognizes composite
or RGB-signal. So, I'm doing some experiments here!
The link you pointed at is only for using a SCART cable with a TV-set.
:-)
-
@AmiDude:
If you want to optimize the cable, make sure the composite, red, green and blue signals are carried through 75Ohm coaxial cables with their shielding connected to their respective grounds.
/Patrik
-
Framiga wrote:
I've read somewhere, that this device uses "SyncOnGreen" even if i highly doubt about this!
Sync should be either on the Green OR on a seperate wire in RGB, This is STANDARD in video.
While i'm here I should mention that some video signals require termination eg. BNC cables should be terminated.
(I missed that bit earlier).
-
@patrick
Thanks for the information! I will test it tomorrow.
Does it have to be coaxial cables?
:-)
-
@AmiDude:
Yeah, werent you working on optimizing the cable? They need to have 75Ohm impedance to match the rest too. Dont expect any miracles though as the 15kHz video-signal isnt super sensitive.
The biggest source of image-artefacts will most definately be that flickerfixer itself.
/Patrik
-
patrik wrote:
@AmiDude:
The biggest source of image-artefacts will most definately be that flickerfixer itself.
/Patrik
That's beyond a doubt.
-
The biggest source of image-artefacts will most definately be that flickerfixer itself.
Well, I'm getting a pretty good image quality out
of it already. But I was wondering if I can get
it as good as a PIV SD/FF.
:-)
-
AmiDude wrote: Pin 8 & 16 have no use when I'm connecting it to the CM345S, because this device automaticly recognizes composite or RGB-signal.
What makes you so sure about this? X-Ray got a grey screen when disconnecting it. A TV is also usually "automatically" recognizing if a signal is RGB or Composite. How? Simply by checking Pin 16. This is SCART standard.
The link you pointed at is only for using a SCART cable with a TV-set.
Yes - and that's why it should work! The CM-345S was rather produced with DVD/VCR-players in mind than Amigas!
-
@humppa wrote:
What makes you so sure about this?
Because I've disconnected pin16 and it works!
If you also disconnect the composite signals then
it doesn't have to check if it's a composite
or RGB input signal, because it only gets an RGB
signal then! That's how sure I am about it!
:-)
-
@humppa wrote:
X-Ray got a grey screen when disconnecting it
Well, X-ray got the wires all mixed up I guess...
:-)
-
Very interesting all these things are!
Amidude can you tell which Pins are now connected and can you give the connection diagram from Amiga 23 Pin to Scart?
It would be very helpful cause I found a lot of rgb to scart diagrams in the internet. Can your cable be used in TV as well?
-
AmiDude wrote: Because I've disconnected pin16 and it works!
Ok, but we just have you and X-ray. He had the completely adverse result, a grey picture. What do we need? More cable scientists :lol:
Now where was this soldering iron again?
-
Hello Marios!
On this point I've got the following pins
connected:
2-4-5-6-7-9-11-13-15-20
A ground wire is connected to pin 5, 9 and 13
NOT connected:
1-3-8-10-12-14-16-17-18-19
This pin-layout works great! But I can't use
it with my TV no more...Only with the CM345S.
:-)
-
@humppa wrote:
Now where was this soldering iron again?
Yeah! Allright dude! You have to experiment yourself
like I do. I'm having fun!
:banana: :-)
-
AmiDude wrote: But you can't use
it with a TV no more...Only with the CM345S.
Hey, that's not scientific! :lol: If you make assumptions you gotta prove them! "I can't use it with MY TV no more" would be the correct term. Greetings, Prof. Dr. Humppa (RgB.)
-
@ All
If pin 16 is not connected, you get a grey screen, period. I tried this several times on purpose and it happened one time accidentally (my solder job came undone and my image went to plain grey). I have checked and my wiring matches the SCART standard (you still get an image with a resistor or without a resistor on pin 16, but you have to have pin 16. If that wasn't the case, they would have disabled it on the CYP side).
Secondly, the pattern interference that I mentioned earlier changes with a change in PAL / NTSC screenmode selection. If you use PAL, the 'crawl' is top to bottom. This isn't the red-edged composite crawl that we all know (and which I see with my PS2 going through composite) this is an artefact caused by the flicker fixer. Possibly it is worse through my monitor than AmiDudes, but interestingly my PIV displays crystal clear through this CRT. It is a 17" Proview. PAL modes are reported as SECAM by the CYP.
If you select an NTSC screenmode, the 'crawl' is gross and is left-to-right, like ripples in a pool. The frequency of these waves changes and I have even seen a change in direction: try to explain that by blaming my cable (I don't know enough about this but it seems logical to me that a cable problem will produce a consistent artefact since the source of the artefact is not changing).
My bottom line for now:
The CYP is absolutely unsuitable for any device that outputs a composite signal. I proved that with my PS2. The image was terrible for games and would only be acceptable for a fast-paced action DVD film.
As an Amiga Flicker Fixer and Scandoubler: I can't recommend it. I say this because I can't believe that other flicker fixers are going to be worse than this (apart from the colour short-changing on other models). I think its best use is for High-res Laced screens, with the CYP resolution set to 800 x 600, and with the brightness turned down and the contrast turned down and the colour turned up slightly. But fonts are blurred (readable, still) and there is that crawling that is noticeable especially on patterns. It is definitely not recommended for those of you doing graphics work, but perhaps an A500 user who just wants to play games will find the quality acceptable.
And unless there is something I have overlooked, that is my 2 South African cents on the matter.
-
@humppa
You're right! I'm gonna change that sentence right now!
:lol: :-)
-
Thanks Amidude but I meant if you can give me the diagram from the 23 pins to Scart, not the Scart pins you use :)
For example:
Amiga --> Scart
1 -----------> 1
3 -----------> 2
Please help me!
-
@X-ray wrote:
If pin 16 is not connected, you get a grey screen, period.
Not on my monitor it don't...
I think its best use is for High-res Laced screens, with the CYP resolution set to 800 x 600
Weird...Mine is working best if I use 1024x768 mode.
If you select an NTSC screenmode, the 'crawl' is gross and is left-to-right, like ripples in a pool.
I never seen a "crawl" or "ripples" on my screen...
Look at my uploaded pictures...
As an Amiga Flicker Fixer and Scandoubler: I can't recommend it. I say this because I can't believe that other flicker fixers are going to be worse than this (apart from the colour short-changing on other models).
Well, I've tested several external SD/FF's, and this
one is superb to them all! Did you tested any other external SD/FF?
My conclusion is that you're using the wrong SCART-cable with the wrong pin-out. Period. Like I mentioned many
times before: I'm getting a clear and sharp picture
with the CM345S. That's for sure!
:-)
-
Well then the only thing for it is for you to send me your cable and I send you mine. There must be something else about yours that is different from mine, that we don't know about. I can't just follow your instructions about which pins to connect and disconnect, because already that doesn't work: I get no picture without pin 16.
So, do you wanna try it? Where are you located?
Otherwise we are going to have to say that there is a 'lucky' cable and monitor combination that produces a nice picture. My combination doesn't.
-
@mfilos
Marios, take a look at this links:
www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pincabtvm_amiga_scart
www.jeacle.ie/pub/articles/scart/
:-)
-
No success here after my first soldering-session. I still do not get a picture from the RGB connector of my A1200. Only Composite (Chinch) is working.
Before I did anything, I got a white "SECAM" picture on my A1200 and a very nice one with my A500 (tiny bit of ghosting, but no artifacts, lines, etc.).
First I desoldered Pin16. Nothing changed, picture was still white and SECAM.
Then I desoldered Pin20 (Comp Sync). The image went completely black. No more SECAM, nothing.
Finally I connected Pin22 (+12V) on Pin 16 and the picture stayed white.
I thought experimenting with Pin16 would be worth it since thats the only difference between my A500 (+5V on P16) and A1200 (0V on Pin16). Unfortunately, I dont have the right resistors, otherwise I could get the perfect voltage for Pin16 by taking +12V from Pin22. Can everybody follow? :-o
-
@X-Ray and Amidude: I cannot see any difference between your cables. The first "good" one posted by AmiDude has P16 connected. The difference to your cable is that you have cross connection for grounding on pins 5,9,13,17.
Maybe I would remove this from P4 since it might get interference from it. Just a guess...
-
@humppa
This is my pin-out for the moment:
Pins 2-4-5-6-7-9-11-13-15-20 are connected.
A ground wire is connected to pin 5 and
crosswired to 9 and 13. It works fine for me.
I'm starting to develop a PIN-head on my shoulder!:crazy:
:laughing:
I don't know why X-ray is getting bad results.
Maybe it's got to do with his Amiga 23-Pin plug,
that's having a mixed up wiring or something...
:-)
-
@X-ray wrote:
Well then the only thing for it is for you to send me your cable and I send you mine.
I certainly not gonna send you my precious SCART-cable! You wanna choose the easy way out, but have to try it yourself. So kick yourself under the butt, grab your soldering iron and try it again!
:lol:
-
AmiDude wrote:
@humppa
This is my pin-out for the moment:
Pins 2-4-5-6-7-9-11-13-15-20 are connected.
A ground wire is connected to pin 5 and
crosswired to 9 and 13. It works fine for me.
Maybe it's got to do with his Amiga 23-Pin plug,
that's having a mixed up wiring or something...
Yeah, quite possible. That's why it would be nice if you could finally post some kind of Pin x-->Pin x diagram, not only saying "what is connected".
For example, where is the ground wire coming from? Is it Amiga Pin17 (Video Gnd), Amiga Pin19 (Video Gnd for CHV Sync) or some other Pin?
I just thought that I also could get a VGA->SCART cable with this Amiga2VGA adapter I have. They just seem to be cheaper...
-
@humppa wrote:
Yeah, quite possible. That's why it would be nice if you could finally post some kind of Pin x-->Pin x diagram, not only saying "what is connected".
Ok, I'm gonna post the Amiga pin connections tomorrow.
I just thought that I also could get a VGA->SCART cable with this Amiga2VGA adapter I have. They just seem to be cheaper...
That's also a possibility...Good thinking dude!
:-)
-
This is strange, when I use my atari st or any of my other consoles on the box it comes up with SCART PAL and not the usual SECAM that I get on the Amiga. I made another cable for my Amiga by copying the Atari pin outs exactly. Unless the user manual is incorrect my Atari lead has horizontal sync going to scart pin 16! I wired my amiga lead the same way but it didnt work. I then wired amiga 23 via a 220 ohm resistor to scart 16 (measured 1.3V), got a picture but still comes up with SECAM!
I've had a look in my other console scart leads, most have capacitors in between the red,green and blue feeds in the scart plugs. The only exception is the ST which has resistors in the same places. I've got some capacitors kicking about so will try them tomorrow.
-
@ Humppa and AmiDude
Okay lemme try to clear up this cable business. Here is the wiring of my cable:
23-pin connector...........SCART connector
-------------------------------------------
3 -------------------------------> 15
4 -------------------------------> 11
5 -------------------------------> 7
10 ------------> resistor --> 20
16, 17, 18, 19, 20 --------> 4, 5, 9, 13, 17 via one wire
22 ------------------------------> 8
23 -----------------------------> 16
L Amiga Audio (rca) -------> 2
R Amiga Audio (rca) -------> 6
L + R Audio ground --------> 4
-
Don't you think that a good way for the Amiga community to repond to this possible great news is to request that the product and proper cables be supplied by our favorite Amiga dealers. If there was interest and if we e-mailed them requesting the p[roduct with a desire for a decent price. A reputable dealer would meet our demands if he wants to sell quantity. In the USA, I already contacted WWW.Softhut.com, they said they never heard of the product. I am sure if they get enough requests, they would carry thje product.
-
OK, here's (finaly) my Amiga 23-Pin D-sub to SCART wiring:
AMIGA: ***** SCART:
RED : 3 ------------ 15
GREEN : 4 ------------ 11
BLUE : 5 ------------ 7
Comp. SYNC : 10 ----------- 20
Ground : 16 - 20 -------------- 5 > crosswired > 9 > 13
Pin 16,17,18,19 & 20 are all connected to each other.
I've disabled the audio wires, because I connected my
Amiga straight to a stereo.
CM345S OSD-controls:
PICTURE:
Brightness - 210
Contrast - 100
Color - 100
Tint - NTSC only
RESOLUTION:
1024x768
Monitor: Philips 107E 17"
That's it dudes...I hope you will get
a nice & sharp picture display out of it,
like I do.
:-)
-
My scart cable is wired exactly the same as yours bar scart pins 8 and 16 are connected. I know 8 isnt used so it doesn't matter but if I disconnect 16 I get no picture. I noticed your box has a purple wire linking 2 pins internally, I copied this on mine and it gave me a picture but it was all in grey tones and not useable.
-
@X-Ray
10 ------------> resistor --> 20
WHY?!?
remove that resistor. Pin 10 (CompSync) MUST go directly on the Scart pin 20.
-
@zx6r6
Hmm....strange. Didn't your box has the
purple wire? It's supposed to be standard.
:-?
-
@Framiga
:-? What resistor? I never mentioned any resistor...
-
@Framiga
Sorry...I thought you mentioned me...
:-)
-
@zx6r6
That maybe the solution...Take out any resistors.
:-)
-
Nope! I've had mine for quite a while so I'd assume the purple wire is a modification of some description. If your box is a newer revised version that may explain why you don't need pin 16 and other people do, myself included!
-
or better take out ALL the wires but:
R_G_B plus CSync to pin 20 and get rid of ALL the automatic switch signals (not needed with this device).
EDIT- that purple wire gose from pin 11 (Green) to pin 20(CSync).
Its a dirty patch to see working, that device that delivers the SyncOnGreen.
Probably you have 2 different variant of the same scandoubler.
-
@Framiga
That's exactly what I did...
Except for the ground wires. If I remove them,
I got a very fuzzy picture.
:-)
-
The only resistor I've got is on 16. I've tried it with and without resistors, it doesnt make any difference.
-
@zx6r6 wrote:
Nope! I've had mine for quite a while so I'd assume the purple wire is a modification of some description. If your box is a newer revised version that may explain why you don't need pin 16 and other people do, myself included!
That should explain a lot. Maybe that's why X-ray
got such bad results..
-
"That's exactly what I did...
Except for the ground wires. If I remove them,
I got a very fuzzy picture."
eh, eh . . thats quite obvious ;-)
-
@Framiga wrote:
Probably you have 2 different variant of the same scandoubler.
That could be the case...
My CM345S device got the following
serial number:
200411180018
and also this number: EE0042
-
@Framiga wrote:
eh, eh . . thats quite obvious
I was only experimenting!
:lol:
-
For reference my serial is 200401050033, the other numbers are the same. I wonder if the first few of the serial are year,month and day of manufacture. Seems to make sense considering when I bought mine.
-
@zx6r6
If that's the case then my device is
manufactured on 18th of november 2004.
It's quite possible that I got an updated version.
:-)
-
jokes apart . . . in the above URLs, there are all the answers to your questions (not you AmiDude . . . you are already OK).
Every component video signal (R-G-B and CSYNC) MUST have its own shield (don't care then if tyed togheter inside the SCART)
Follow the scheme here
http://kmt.hku.nl/~pieter/HARD/MON/MON.html#amiga
WITH and WITHOUT the switch lines (8 and 16 in the SCART)
-
by Tripitaka on 2005/11/7 21:16:27
Framiga wrote:
I've read somewhere, that this device uses "SyncOnGreen" even if i highly doubt about this!
Sync should be either on the Green OR on a seperate wire in RGB, This is STANDARD in video.
While i'm here I should mention that some video signals require termination eg. BNC cables should be terminated.
(I missed that bit earlier).
a video device (like this) must be enabled to accept SyncONGreen or separated CSync. Its NOT standard . . are variants.
And about video signals . . . they MUST always be terminated (75 Ohm) indipendently by which connectors you are using.
-
@ Framiga
I tried without the resistor between Amiga 10 and Scart 20, and here is what I found:
1) NTSC HiRes Laced: No resistor...no change in wave artefact, slightly better edges but a kind of 'twinkle' on fonts, almost like noise.
2) PAL HiRes Laced: No resistor...no change in crawl artefact, slightly worse edges and also a kind of 'twinkle' on fonts, like noise.
Conclusion: since my A500 is PAL and I am likely to use PAl screens mainly, it is not sensible to take out the resistor between Amiga 10 and Scart 20.
@ All
I opened my CYP and it does NOT have any additional wire like AmiDude's CYP. My serial number is 200404050039. The model number is EE0042.
There isn't anything else I can do cable-wise: I have covered all the options now and had quite a bit of soldering and messing about. I will do extra tests:
1) Dig out the A500 and see what that picture is like (I don't expect a difference).
2) I may have a genuine Scart cable for my PS2 somewhere. I will try that if I can find it (eliminate the Amiga variables).
But as it stands, my feeling is AmiDude has a non-standard CYP. He is lucky, but I think it is a risk buying such a unit for £99 when they are not all the same.
-
There appear to be two versions of the CM-345s. One that takes composite sync and one that takes sync on green both via SCART. Here are URLs for evidence:
Composite Sync Version:
http://www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/100.html
Sync on Green Version:
http://www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/102.html
I suspect you have a sync-on green model and are getting a composite video signal regardless of your RGB wiring since the Amiga does not output sync-on-green.
-bubba
-
@bubba:
The A4000 can actually output sync-on-green. It is set with the J500 motherboard jumper - see this (http://wonkity.com/~wblock/a4000hard/mbjumper.html) page.
/Patrik
-
@ bubba
My unit is not a sync-on-green unit. My manual matches exactly the PDF manual that is seen in your RGB/composite unit link. (Your 1st link)
-
Just for the record - my unit is
Model EE0042
Serial No. 200504080038
So it seems like the most recent version. NO bridge-wire connected between Pin20 and Pin11.
Manual is also the one of the "generic" Composite/RGB Version.
-
Ok, finally did a quite drastic test with this revision.
I had my old A500 running with the CM-345S with an open SCART-connector.
First disconnected anything from Pin16. White picture, "SECAM".
Then reconnected +5V to it (coming from Amiga Pin23). It always showed a picture when it was connected and the picture disappeared when I removed the cable on Pin16.
-
That is the same way I tested my setup, except I tested pin 16 and pin 20 with and without resistors, on PAL and NTSC modes respectively. I grafted a bit there, I tell you.
-
@humppa @X-ray
I disconnected the little purple wire, just to
see what happens. It displayed Workbench, but whit
a bright light yellow/greenisch color. So I connected
it again.
Did you guys have tested my pinout like I mentioned
before, without the resistors? Whit what results?
If the results where bad, then try to connect pin
20(Comp. SYNC) to pin11(Green) just like the wire
in my box. But you can connect it inside the SCART-plug.
Another thing: I have a little sticker on my box, located
near the serial number. It says:"CM-345SRGsB". I wonder
where the "s" stands for? Could it be the "s" from
"Sync on Green"? Also, on the backside of the carton box
it was send in, there's a handwriting that says "Sync on Green". Could it be that I've got a Sync on Green device? That could explain why there is a Comp.-SYNC to Green wire hack in my device. But like you dudes, it came with the Composite/RGB manual, not the S on G manual.
It's becoming more and more mysterious...:inquisitive:
But at least I got a good picture out of it!
EDIT:
p.s. Don't worry about the "SECAM" display,
mine does that too, if I change input or turn
of the power then it displays "PAL".
:-)
-
@AmiDude
this explains a thing.(at least)
You have a "modded" scandoubler, that would works with both RGB+Sync and SyncOnGreen.
If you had an A4000 after setting the mobo jumpers to SyncOnGreen, you "could" use it even without that purple jumper wire
For the others guys . . . hands up :-( . . . there something screwed up or with your device/cable wiring or with some misunderstandings here.
-
AmiDude wrote:
Did you guys have tested my pinout like I mentioned
before, without the resistors? Whit what results?
Yes, I was never using any resistors. Your setup without Pin16 connected gave me a completely white picture.
If the results where bad, then try to connect pin
20(Comp. SYNC) to pin11(Green) just like the wire
in my box. But you can connect it inside the SCART-plug.
No, I do not see any need to do this. When putting +5V on Pin16, I get a nice picture (on my A500). For the A1200, I have to exchange the Mobo since I am getting really strange voltages on Pin 21-23 - which is also the reason why the CM-345S does not work on the A1200.
About your RGsB device: Did you see that empty jumper/connector inside the CM-345S? It is named JMP2 and I was wondering what it does... If your device is in fact "Sync on green" then there must be some way to set this configuration.
Like you proposed to me - maybe it would be wise to contact CGY to clear up some of these questions.
-
@humppa wrote:
Your setup without Pin16 connected gave me a completely white picture.
Very, véry strange! Pin 16 is for RGB switch control.
The CM345S doesn't need a switch control signal,
because it detects the RGB signal itself.
About your RGsB device: Did you see that empty jumper/connector inside the CM-345S? It is named JMP2 and I was wondering what it does...
If you mean the jumper that's next to the white sticker;
It's labeled JMP1. NOT JMP2.
Like you mentioned, you should contact the manufacterer
to clear things up.
:-)
-
@Framiga wrote:
You have a "modded" scandoubler, that would works with both RGB+Sync and SyncOnGreen.
So I guess I've got some sort of "hybrid" SD/FF then!
Cool!
:-D
-
AmiDude wrote:
Very, véry strange! Pin 16 is for RGB switch control.
The CM345S doesn't need a switch control signal,
because it detects the RGB signal itself.
Arrggh! How often do we have to repeat it: X-Rays and my CM-345S NEED RGB switch control. Our units do not detect anything automatically. Maybe the fact that your uni works without it has something to do with the fact that it does not seem to be a "generic" Composite/RGB unit (wire 11/20; printing on box and unit case).
-
Don't forget me! Mine needs 16 aswell! :)
-
@humppa wrote:
Arrggh!
Don't panick!!! :crazy:
:lol:
Now serious, you're saying that you got a nice
picture on your A500. Is it as good as the
quality as shown on my uploaded pictures?
Because X-ray seems to have very poor quality
on the same device as yours.
:-)
-
Exactly, gentlemen, EXACTLY!!!
Now me and Humppa have two units with serial numbers that suggest that mine was made last year and his was made this year, they are both NOT Sync on green models, and they both must have pin 16 connected. Now I have run mine in all the configuartions I can, in terms of SCART wiring, and I can tell you that the picture is not what I call good quality. Maybe AmiDude got lucky with his unusual box. But the indications are that if you buy a CYP you are going to get what Humppa and I got, and the other guy (ZX6r6?) has too. And with all of us there are problems, so I must advise not to get it.
-
@X-ray wrote:
And with all of us there are problems, so I must advise not to get it.
You're always advising "not to get it". This is like the 3th time... Because you have negative experiences, it doesn't mean that this device is not OK. Í don't have
any problems with it and the quality is very good!
If one would buy this device, they just have to ask
for the Sync on Green version. Problem solved!
I suggest you and the others have to return your
boxes to the store and switch it with a Sync on Green one!
:-)
-
@ AmiDude
When you bought yours, did you know you were buying a sync-on-green unit?
-
AmiDude wrote:
Don't panick!!!
It's not panicking, it's just that I (we?) are tired of repeating things again and again.
Now serious, you're saying that you got a nice
picture on your A500. Is it as good as the
quality as shown on my uploaded pictures?
Yes, I as far as I can tell from the pictures - yes.
But even when uploading pictures, to tell if it's "good" or "not so good" quality remains subjective. A video technician would look at it differently than a usual gamer.
Anyway, I will upload some screenshots from my A500 tonight.
-
@humppa wrote:
It's not panicking, it's just that I (we?) are tired of repeating things again and again.
So do I...! :lol:
Anyway, I will upload some screenshots from my A500 tonight.
OK, dude....I will look forward to it.
:-)
-
@ AmiDude
Is there any way for you to find out exactly what kind of CYP you have? And can you tell us what sort of CYP you thought you were buying? Because at the moment I can't tell if you have a modified RGB CYP or if you have a Sync-on-green unit. Do you see what my concern is? As for sending the units back, we can't, because we have opened them, and besides, we don't even know what unit you have :-(
-
Personally I'm quite happy with my box, the picture isn't superb but its way better than most boxes I've tried. I only started 'fiddling' as I thought I may be able to improve the picture. I have marginally but this is due to me using a premium quality oxygen free blah blah scart cable.
-
@X-ray
I must say I didn't. Otherwise I did tell you guys
about the difference. True the experiments for the
last couple of days we figured it all out together.
It's realy a shame that you got (probably) the wrong unit.
:-(
I guess I was one lucky dude!
:-)
-
Very lucky indeed.
-
i would try this (if i were you)
Seen that those purple wire, carry the CSync from the pin 20 to the GreenIN (pin 11), why don't try you too?
Its not dangerous but to be 100% sure put a resistor in series
pin 11 >>>>> 1kOhm resistor >>>>> pin 20
EDIT- and contact anyway the Company as i'm quite sure that they are already aware of this kind of problems.
-
@zx6r6
I'm very glad you're not as disappointed as X-ray.
:-)
But how come he's getting a bad image-quality,
and you and humppa seems to have a nice picture?
You're all having the same device...
:-?
-
@X-ray wrote:
Is there any way for you to find out exactly what kind of CYP you have?
After all experiments and discussions we had, I'm quite
sure that I've got the "Sync on Green" version of the
CM345S device, because of the purple wire hack, and I've discoverd a label on the box that says: "CM-345SRGsB".
Also, on the backside of the carton box it was send in, there's a handwriting that says "Sync on Green". I just noticed it this morning. (Now I'm also repeating myself:crazy: )
:-)
-
It would be great if we could see (i.e. visualize) what we are talking about the whole time. I'd like to see a screenshot of the interference/lines that X-ray had with his device, I'd like to see what zx6r6 is "quite happy with" and also I will show what I call a "nice image quality".
Since everything is based on our own subjective impressions, it might be too early to clearly draw conclusions from it like "The Sync on Green version gives a better image quality", etc.
I never owned an Amiga-scandoubler, so I have no idea how it compares, but anyway I am really happy with the output of the CM-345S. I can only compare with the VGA-box that I had for a week - the CM-345S is waayyy beyond
-
I couldn't agree more with that! I did my part of it already. Let's show some pics!
:-)
-
Some "close-ups" on letters/icons/artifacts would be interesting - not just pictures of the whole monitor frame.
When I do photos of my whole monitor (21" that is), the image looks even "ok" when I have it connected via Composite - although the image is completely crappy.
-
I'm still a little confused. Here's a summary of what I think is going on:
* AmiDude has a RGsB (sync-on-green) Unit with an unmodified Amiga-RGB Scart cable and it works great
* humppa has an RGBS (composite-sync) Unit with an unmodified Amiga-RGB Scart cable and it works good, we need to see pictures to see if it's great
* x-ray has an RGBS Unit, has tried various cable pin-outs, and it sucks
I find it odd that the RGsB unit works at all.
-bubba
-
@bubba wrote:
AmiDude has a RGsB (sync-on-green) Unit with an unmodified Amiga-RGB Scart cable and it works great
That's not exactly true... I've modified my SCART cable
by taking out all the RGB switch, audio pins & wires and resistors.
I find it odd that the RGsB unit works at all.
It's not odd at all, considering that my device is modified
by a pin20(Comp. SYNC) to pin11(Green) hack.
:-)
-
@AmiDude: Maybe I am now also repeating myself because you might have stated that earlier: Did you try out the CM-345S with all of your Amiga's? If yes, did you see any difference between them?
I was just thinking that some models probably could deliver more noise/interference on the RGB port while others don't.
Slightly OT, but my A1200 (Rev.1D.1) first had a "flicker-problem", i.e. always when there was HD-access, the picture flickered and horizontal lines went over the image. I solved it by soldering a capacitor to the Mobo. This problem is common to most 1D.1 mainboards. The fix is described on Aminet.
-
@humppa
Yes, I've tried it with my other Amiga's too,
with same (good) results. There's no difference
between them.
:-)
-
Ok, here we go... I finally made some screenshots.
Phew, this was more difficult than I thought! You get all this kind of interference/moiree patterns when using a digital camera with a CRT screen.
I just wanted to be sure that you don't think these patterns are related to the CM-345S - they are not!
Anyway, I think it can't get much better than this...
http://tinyurl.com/blr2c
http://tinyurl.com/7m3va
http://tinyurl.com/7k9pc
http://tinyurl.com/exrlb
http://tinyurl.com/a56yj
http://tinyurl.com/c95fx
http://tinyurl.com/83fsj
My monitor is a Nokia 445Xpro (21" CRT).
-
Okay some more tests here:
I found that SCART cable for the PS2, and I can vouch that there is nothing wrong with the CYP in terms of detecting a SCART RBG or composite signal. I ran GT4, loaded up a car and set it up on one of those photo shoot options. I chose a nice metallic red car with a Las Vegas neon-lit background (if that doesn't show up problems I don't know what will). I saved the same static image on a USB flashcard too. The image via SCART RGB and CYP was very nice on my PC monitor, almost as good as the same image on TV via SCART in. The difference in quality is so small that I think it can be ignored for games and for DVDs (I checked a DVD too afterwards). When I checked the image on my PC with ACDSee, it was better than the image via PS2 and CYP, but taking all the display differences into account I think the CYP handles PS2 SCART signals very well. The CYP reports it as a PAL display too. Then just to confirm what I already knew: I changed cables and gave the CYP a SCART composite signal of the same car image and it was really bad: fuzzy, pattern crawl problems, the lot. But note that when I say it was bad, it was not the same as the high res laced images from my Amiga. It was much worse.
Then I dug out the A500 and checked that out. The picture was quite a bit better than on my A4000T, but I can't test high res laced screens. All I have are a handful of games. I tried Troddlers and I tried Rodland, and I found a utility disk with X-Copy on it, and those all looked okay, just had small amount of ghosting, no bad artefact as visible on the A4000T.
Then I set up Rodland via WHDLoad on the A4KT and ran it: guess what...the image looked just as good as the A500 image. Now these aren't laced screens and they aren't high res either. I don't know why they looked okay but they did. Maybe my Workbench screen is more sensitive/revealing when it comes to artefacts, especially since I have been testing all the laced modes.
So the mystery continues, but at least for me I have a display route for my A500. I can tell you that the sound switching is good too on the CYP. The arrangement now is that the PC audio out goes to the CYP, the Amiga/PS2 (whichever is connected) has the audio in the SCART, and there is an output via L and R RCA from the CYP to my speakers. That works fine, no problem there.
But I can't get nice Workbench screens at all. If I can figure out how to get a laced screen out of this 1.3 A500, I will try that next.
Edit: okay, just found a Protracker disk and loaded it on the A500. Tbere was a read error on the disk and it dropped out to a grey screen with a read error requester. On that grey screen I could see the same kind of artefact (not as bad as on the laced A4KT though) and also some crawling on the fonts. There is a problem under certain circumstances, and it is difficult to pin down. My Amiga SCART cable displays a nice image on my TV, but I can't get nice images on my CYP.
@ Amidude : what laced modes have you tried?
-
@X-ray
I've tested it with my A4000D/060 with very good results.
The Workbench screenmode was in Hires+Laced 640x512.
I also put a 256 color jpeg image on the background, and it looks really nice with no decrease of image-quality!
Then I loaded a real 24Bit image with VieuwJPG and VT,
and I was astonisht of the very good quality. It was
really ful 24Bit display! As good as my PicassoIV.
I don't know why you have that crawling effect on your
WB-screen though...Maybe you got some interfence from
something.
:-)
-
bubba wrote:
I find it odd that the RGsB unit works at all.
-bubba
Why? It's what I would have used.
-
I could only test 640x512 Interlaced until now, since my A500 has nothing but an OCS chipset.
I can assure you that the image quality in this screen mode is as good as on the photos showing the Lowres resolutions that I did - and completely flicker-free.
For Highres Interlaced in PAL, you have to switch to 800x600 or 1024x768 however, otherwise 32 Pixels will be cropped.
-
Just checked another composite source: my digital camera. Same bad quality as PS2 composite, so one thing is certain, this device is no good for composite signals, the quality is really bad.
-
Ok, but what do you expect from a composite video source? I have my C64 connected using Composite over SCART and the quality is reasonable for this type of signal.
It's a pity that the CM-345S doesn't accept S-Video over SCART because the C64 can deliver separate Chroma/Luma YC signals (which would improve sharpness a lot).
-
@X-ray wrote:
so one thing is certain, this device is no good for composite signals, the quality is really bad.
That counts for all Composite to VGA adapters. Composite
is really terrible. So if you want a good quality,
than one must use an RGB signal with this device.
:-)
-
Hmm, when I recall what I got over Composite with my old (horrible) VGA box, I must even say that the CM-345S does a really nice job.
The combfilter of the Micronas chip seems to do a good job.
Some Composite-screenshots of my C64:
http://tinyurl.com/ajfzb
http://tinyurl.com/92plg
http://tinyurl.com/82vdj
When considering that it's only a Composite signal, there is quite few color-bleeding and fuzzyness. Every pixel (ok, the C64 graphics look quite blocky) is well separated.
@X-ray: Still waiting for you pictures ;-)
-
@ Humps
I will email you a few short movies, because here is the thing: the pics look deceptively good when I take shots of the screen with my camera. The major problem I have with image quality can't be demonstrated on a still image. I'll get on to it tomorrow and mail them to you.
-
@X-ray
Email them also to me, I'm very curious...
:roll:
-
Alright, you too, Amidude, you too...no need to roll your eyes, pal. :-)
-
OK dude!:-D
-
email me movie too :) or, just email me it. and i put it on web for all on public and drop link here
-
@ kas1e
Thanks for the offer to host the files. I think it is the most sensible solution (I can't host them). I will email them to you only. I'll get on it tomorrow.
-
X-ray wrote:
I will email you a few short movies, because here is the thing: the pics look deceptively good when I take shots of the screen with my camera. The major problem I have with image quality can't be demonstrated on a still image. I'll get on to it tomorrow and mail them to you.
That's funny because I had the completely opposite experience: The pictures I made usually looked worse than what I was actually seeing on screen. Due to differences in resolutions, the digital camera used to pic up strange moirée patterns which you do not see when using your (hopefully) higher-resolution eyes ;-)
-
If you look at my pictures, you could see that
the image quality is very good. What type of
camera do you guys use?
Mine is a Canon PowerShot A70 3.2 Mega Pixels.
:-)
-
Chaps...
I regret to say that filming the screen has not been useful. The artefact is lost in the natural scanline of the monitor as detected by the camera sensor. There are also the Newton rings type distortions to consider. In fact, as it stands, if I didn't know myself and I read this thread as an outsider, I would say "X-ray is full of fuggen sh1t because he moans about the CYP on the A4KT, but can't produce evidence."
So, I have bad image quality and it doesn't show up on camera, whether I take a still image or a movie. Take note that a Canon G6 is a crap camera for movies and I never intended to use it for movies. I dunno if another camera would work better.
Anyway, what we need is another person with a CYP (a standard one, not hacked like AmiDude's) to tell us how their picture is on a high-res laced screen on an A1200 or A4000. I guess we haven't had anybody else who can tell us about it yet.
But as it stands, I can't be of any further use to you guys in evaluating this CYP, so you can choose whether you ignore my comments on it and take a chance yourself, and get your own CYP, or wait for another user to report.
-
Thumbs up for CYP's technical support! Below is what I got as a reply to my questions about the CM-345S.
________________
Dear Mr. X,
Firstly thank you for using our product of CM-345S Scart scaling converter.
There are two versions on this machine we designed, one is SCART RGB/composite to XGA converter/ the standard version (model name we called CM-345S), the other is SCART RGsB to XGA (model name we called CM-345SRGS) the modification which is on your hand.
For your description as below, it is our CM-345SRGB ( Sync on green ) which you have there **I posted a link to your photo, AmiDude**. We modified it from the standard CM-345S with both firmware and hardware modification. We use a wire to connect the SCART pin between 20 and 11 as shown the photo offered by you. The firmware is also different. So you'll have to change microchip as well.
We are very happy to know that our CM-345SRGB works well with your equipment between Commodore Amiga computers (15.6khz RGB output) and CRT/TFT monitors. For CM-345SRGB, the input is always fixed at RGB and can't be switched to composite video.
While our CM-345S standard version as described in your point-2. The input of CM-345S can be either SCART RGB or composite through detection of the pin-16 and then outputs to the PC resolution in the ranging from VGA to XGA. The source device will send a high or low through pin16 to command the CM-345S to switch to RGB or video mode.
It all depends on your source device to decide which model is suitable for you. However, we think for most of the home video sources such as DVD or VCR the standard version CM-345S is the choice. CM-345SRGB is more suitable for some sync on green signal source such as CGA game console.
Any question on CM-345S series, please let me know.
-
We modified it from the standard CM-345S with both firmware and hardware modification.
Well, this explains it all! That's why I got other
results with the SCART pinout and image quality.
So, like I mentioned before, if one would buy this device
they should get an "Sync on Green". It's a fact that
it works pretty good.
:-)
-
So, as result, only CM-345SRGB can be used. Not CM-345S.
-
kas1e wrote: So, as result, only CM-345SRGB can be used. Not CM-345S.
Wrong. Both devices can be used. AmiDude had good results with the CM-345RGsB and I had good results (see pictures) with the Composite/RGB version of the device.
An advantage of the latter unit is that you can also use Composite/Video sources. So the use of the device is not only limited to RGsB sources.
As an example, I have hooked up my C64 to the CM-345S. Using a cheap SCART switchbox, I can now switch between them.
-
Does anyone know where I can buy the RGB version in the UK?
I am unsure if this is it:
http://www.hificables.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/11100/groupID/712/categoryID/2400/v/99e3e8d7-969d-41ca-b2fe-431f50a179e0
and don't want to waste £100
Help please, oh learn-ed ones :-)
-
That is the one I bought, and from the same dealer too! I can vouch that their service is excellent. If you do get that, I would be keen to hear how you rate the image.
-
Thanks for the reply
Are you happy with it?
All I want to do is play games with my a1200 through my tft monitor
-
Well, I tested it on an ordinary 17" monitor. I cannot say how good it will be on a TFT. Also, I didn't like the quality of my workbench screens through the device, but I have no other flicker fixer to compare it to, other than my Picasso IV which is probably the best you can get. I tried two games on my A500 through the CYP and they were alright, but on lighter screens / patterned workbench screens I haven't seen an acceptable image on either the A500 or my A4000T yet. I seem to be in the minority though, in that assessment.
-
Thanks Xray
Anyone happy with the tft results of this device?
-
@DomN76 wrote:
Anyone happy with the tft results of this device?
Yes, I am very happy with the quality of the CM-345S!
Look at the screenshots I uploaded here:
www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?u=3445
I've tested also other (external) SD/FF, but this one
beats them all. It's also a very good Flickerfixer and
can output in real 24Bit.
:-)
EDIT:
I did not test it on a TFT monitor though...
So I can't tell you what the quality is on
such screens.
-
DomN76 wrote:
Anyone happy with the tft results of this device?
TFT's generally will work fine since the CM-345S ouputs 60Hz. Image quality will however be less optimal when using the TFT not at its native resolution. In this case, interpolation from e.g. 1024x768 to 1280x1024 will slightly degrade image sharpness.
Note however that this is simply the way how TFTs work and not related to the CM-345S.
-
@hummpa
I agree with that, but there is good news:
I contacted the manufacturer and they say that
they gonna produce a new model in March or April
next year, wich can output higher resolution.
So there won't be any problem anymore with TFT
screens.
:-)
-
Great news, Amidude! Hmm, maybe I should already start saving on that one :roll:
-
Thanks everyone! Not sure I can wait until Spring for the new version, however!
-
gday all,
I purchased a magic vga box by mayflash,video to vga converter and it displays game screens perfectly through the composite video output of the a1200 and a600 but the workbench screens were of poor quality.
So I used the a520 modulator and the video output from their to the converter and the workbench screens and game screens displayed clear and crisp.
The only problem is so far I cant get the resolution to display 640 x 480 or above it can display 640x 480 but not without flickering.
What is the screen modes of the workbenches that were uploaded?I know this is a different device that the one discussed here but at $75.00 australian I think it is well worth it as it has the abilit to switch back and forth from pc to video display so you can have the pc and amiga through the same monitor.
-
@nahoo7
The pictures are at PAL Hires(640x256) and Hires+Laced(640x512). But I've tested also SuperHires+Laced with
very good results.
I've had one of those "Magic VGA" boxes too, and it's
really a piece of c**p! Because of the composite output.
The CM-345S however outputs RGB, so much better quality.
This device has also a VGA passtrough connector for
switching from Amiga to PC.
:-)
-
@ nahoo 7
One thing that the CYP does very well is handle the audio and video from PC and Amiga, to one set of speakers and one monitor. You can swap with the remote too, if you like. Its monitor switching is better than a mechanical switcher: I have both and the CYP cannot be faulted at all for monitor switching (and audio switching)
-
Hey AmiDude, You're not getting a commission on those things are you? ;-)
-
@uncharted wrote:
Hey AmiDude, You're not getting a commission on those things are you?;-)
:lol:
No, im not actually. But it's just that I'm very enthusiastic
about the quality of this CM-345S device!
:-)
-
AmiDude wrote:
No, im not actually. But it's just that I'm very enthusiastic
about the quality of this CM-345S device!:-)
What do you think, maybe we should in fact charge them for commission for tricking poor Amiga-users in buying this expensive device? :lol:
-
@humppa
Good idea! :idea:
:lol:
-
@AmiDude
If you are in contact with them,maybe you can suggest a minor
modification which could be a good improvement for Amiga use.
Asfar as I know, the RGB input port will not pass-through a 31Khz signal. Because in general signal through RGB are always 15Khz. But the Amiga can generate 31Khz signal through RGB port, and I use a lot displays with 31Khz. Of course, swithching cables when switching from a PAL to a VGA screen
or back, is not a solution.
I understand that Amiga userbase is very little and does not justify custom modification, but maybe this one is a very cheap one (I don't know whether it's easy&cheap or not for them to do the modification)
my 2 cent
-
@darkcoder
Good point, I also mentioned this little annoyance earlier.
As a consequence, you can use Highres-Interlace (overscan) as the default WB-resolution.
There is not much need anymore for the 31Khz resolutions such as productivity since Highres-Interlace is flicker-free and displayed with 60Hz refresh-rate.
The CM-345S is really handy in conjunction with a graphics card since you can use it as an electronic KVM-switch for switching between WB (e.g. Voodoo) and AGA (games).
-
Amen...
:angel:
-
Well boys, I've just bought one of these to check out the issues for myself.
I got the Composite Sync model, but I'm going to check with the store to see if they'll exchange it for the green sync one of I can't get it working right.
I'm crossing the fingers that this puppy works. I'll be using it with my A1200, A600 and CD32 and Sony 21" CRT. I'll post my feelings on the image quality to add some fuel to the fire.
-
@ ExtremeWays
I will definitely be keen to see what you find, especially when testing Workbench screens such as PAL HiRes Laced. I want to see if you get that same pattern artefact and the 'crawling' effect I got.
-
ExtremeWays wrote: I got the Composite Sync model, but I'm going to check with the store to see if they'll exchange it for the green sync one of I can't get it working right.
Look at the quote from Cypress (CGY), the Composite Sync model should be the right choice. It's working fine here and quality is great with Highres Interlace. Crawling patterns and such are typical signs of bad quality cabling (no proper shielding) and interference from other sources.
The Amiga does not support Sync on green, it will still work since they have bridged two connectors (see Amidudes version).
An advantage of the "generic" version is that it also supports Composite video sources. My C64 works great with it!
Oh, oh, I don't want to start arguing with Amidude about that again. :love:
-
@ Humppa
I was under the impression that you couldn't test an AGA high res Workbench screen because your video out had a problem. Have you fixed it?
-
@X-Ray:
Yeah, I fixed it by changing the mainboard. It's working fine now :-)
Problem was that some strange power issues were going on and no voltage was supplied on Video Pin23. Result was that the CM-345S did not recognize it was a RGB signal, since no voltage was supplied on SCART Pin16.
-
@humppa
Don't worry! We're not gonna arguing again.
I'm just glad that it also works fine for you. :-D
It's a shame though, that X-ray can't get a better
picture out of it. :-(
I really hope that ExtremeWays got better luck!
:-)
-
@ Humppa
So your screens are good then, no ripples, waves or other 'features?'
Because if that is the case then I need to investigate further why I don't get the same quality. Trouble is I'm not sure where to start.
-
@X-ray
Start with the wiring. Maybe there's some sort of interfence...
-
@ AmiDude
I don't know what to do to check whether the cable is susceptible to interference. I suppose I can turn everything else off, and just use the A500. But otherwise this is just a standard SCART cable (in terms of construction). The only variables we have had have been the connected pins and the resistors, and it seems we have solved that.
-
X-ray wrote:
@ Humppa So your screens are good then, no ripples, waves or other 'features?'
Absolutely! I really suppose that bad shielding is causing your problems.
I just got a new shielded cable for my C64 and image quality is WAY better than before (see my images posted here) when I was using a simple audio chinch-cable.
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@X-ray
Yes, we've been true all that...The problem is that
I've got a different version so I guess I can't tell
you how to rewire the cable. I don't even have the resistors on the Scart and 23Pin connector.
:-)
EDIT:
I rewired my cable totally and I'm using 3 seperate
75ohm cables for Red-Green-Blue. Big improvement!
:-)
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Just use a standard Amiga-SCART cable.
Resistors are not necessary. Just make sure that more than +1V is delivered on SCART Pin16. Easiest way to do this is by getting +5V from Amiga Pin23. Most Amiga-SCART cable you can buy on Ebay/from some stores have this wiring.
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AmiDude wrote:
Big improvement!
How can it improve if it was already "perfect" as you stated earlier?
;-)
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@humppa
OK, I was a little bit exaggerating!
:lol:
But maybe it could be for X-ray a big improvement
when using 75ohm cables too.
:-)
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Good news and bad news boys...
The good news is that I've got a scart cable off ebay, and my composite sync rgb - xga converter.
The bad news is that the cable I bought isn't giving a picture. I'm going to try and copy the pinout of Humppa's cable to see if i get a picture.
Heh.. the little transformer that powers the unit was also faulty.. not impressed, so I'm using a matching spec unit from an adsl modem :)
Let the fun and games begin..
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AmiDude wrote:
I emailed CYP and a lady called Barbara said to phone back this week...
they've just got the first 'improved' versions in stock and one of them is winging its way to me as we speak. £125; not cheap but hopefully a gift that will keep giving!
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interesting THREAD . Xray have you tried with another CRT screen it could be the crt that is picky i had the same thing when i moved from the bvision -> voodoo on my amiga not that is the same thing but i changed monitor and the voodoo got better .
Adonay :-D
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@ Adonay
I don't have another CRT unfortunately, but I can tell you that my monitor hasn't ever displayed a bad picture from the PIV, even if I mess around with the settings on the PIV. If there is a problem the monitor goes blank and gives me a 'frequency out of range' message. That's the worst that it does.
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Both my AMIGA's also support a horizontal resolution of 1280.
What does that look like on the 1024x768 output of this
"Presenter 1 (CM-345)" converter ?
An output signal of 1280x1024 would be better, since it would
match most current 17i and 19i PC LCD Monitors, and it would
repesent the AMIGA's horizontal resolution 1:1 and vertical
1:2 (with 512 PAL interlaced lines).
Great for doing programming work on a four colour workbench :)
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oleimann wrote:
Both my AMIGA's also support a horizontal resolution of 1280.
What does that look like on the 1024x768 output of this
"Presenter 1 (CM-345)" converter ?
An output signal of 1280x1024 would be better
You are speaking of 31khz resolutions here, right? The Cm-345S has two inputs, one SCART for 15khz RGB (e.g. Amiga AGA) and a second one for 31khz VGA passthrough.
The second connector is not limited in resolution whatsoever since it is an electronic switch with passthrough. I am running a Voodoo3 at 1280x1024 through this port.
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Not quite - the 1280x256/512 (Super HiRes) is simply put just a doubling in resolution (dot frequency) - it's still 60/50Hz interlaced with 15Khz line frequency PAL/NTSC and is very unsharp on the composite output.
Which is why the flickerfixer in the A2000 actually flickers horizontally (not vertically) - it appears to alternate for the left and right pixels randomly, since its memory only supports a horizontal resolution of 640+ pixels.
The flickerfixer output works fine for a VGA monitor otherwise.
According to the original poster Super Hires also looks great, but he's using a CRT not an LCD, although the output resolution is supposed to be 1024x768 ?
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indications are that if you buy a CYP you are going to get what Humppa and I got, and the other guy (ZX6r6?) has too. And with all of us there are problems, so I must advise not to get it.
Thats good enough for me :-D I think I was sleeping while they where handing out free soldering lessons.
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Okay fellas, I've made some progress.
I've tried every combination of cable that I can find on the net. all of the ones posted by Humppa and AmiDude. None of them give me any picture at all.
There is only one way I can get a picture and that is by applying that internal hack that AmiDude has. Connecting Green RGB input to the Composite Sync. Pin 11 - Pin 20 on the SCART connector.
This gives a picture, but it is BLACK AND WHITE!! Doh Doh Doh.. So close..
Any ideas anybody. The picture is acceptable at the moment, but a little faint. I will try and solve the colour problem first then work on why it is so faint.
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I would not use the Sync on green hack on the Comp Sync model - nobody knows if this is the only difference between both version of the CM-345S. Maybe there is also a different firmware on the Sync on green.
If it does not work with the initial configuration, I would try different cables and make sure that the CM-345S gets the proper voltage on Pin16. If it still does not work, the device is faulty and I would exchange it.
indications are that if you buy a CYP you are going to get what Humppa and I got, and the other guy (ZX6r6?) has too. And with all of us there are problems, so I must advise not to get it.
I do not have and did not have any problems with the CM-345S. The inital problem was due to voltage problems of my old A1200 mainboard. The CM-345S gives me a great picture.
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I did try and read the 14 pages, but i have to admit to there being some confusing stuff in there. From the first couple of pages I read, this box seemed it was what I was looking for to replace my (broken)scan doubler. Then when I read on it seemed that you have to mod the cable just to get it to display a picture rather than a grey screen. Call me stupid but I'm not to keen on buying this box ain't gonna do what I want it to do and have to mod a cable just to get the thing to work. So my question in theory if I buy this box and get a hold of a rgb>scart lead will this box be able to do what I want it to do without needing to make any mods, and that is simply work like my scan magic did on my 1200T?
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@ humppa
The point was that (at the time) not one of us with the standard model could say for sure whether it was working properly with the Amiga. It's nice to say now that you never had a problem, but the issue was whether the device was suitable or not, and we just didn't know (yes, that includes you).
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Can I just add that I purchased the improved version from CYP on 23rd of Dec and that it is currently displaying a pretty good picture (by my gaming standards) through my 19" TFT
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The CM354S gives me a very good picture,
better then other external SD/FF's or
the crappy VGA-boxes I tested. It's also
the only external SD/FF that can handle
real 24-Bit output. So if you wanna use
it with DPaint or any other graphics program,
then this is the best solution!
:-)
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Yea all Im wanting it for is a for dpaint other pal screenmode software and Whdload. Guess I'll just buy and try atleast I know where to go if I have any problems with it :-D
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Then when I read on it seemed that you have to mod the cable just to get it to display a picture rather than a grey screen.
I never had to mod the cable in order to get a picture from the CM-345S.
I did some soldering to test if the Comp-Sync version of the CM-345S needed a certain voltage on Pin16 in order to display RGB properly. Result was that it is easiest to wire up Amiga Pin23 (+5V) to SCART Pin16 to get RGB display from it. The sync on green version did not need this voltage, because it can only display RGB (no Composite!), so there is no need to detect which kind of signal is used.
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DomN76 wrote:
Can I just add that I purchased the improved version from CYP on 23rd of Dec and that it is currently displaying a pretty good picture (by my gaming standards) through my 19" TFT[/quote]
Is the model number the same? I have been considering purchasing this scandoubler for a long time. What is the standard resolution for this "improved" version? If it will work on my current 19LCD (1280x1024) I want to take the plunge.
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Can I just add that I purchased the improved version from CYP on 23rd of Dec and that it is currently displaying a pretty good picture (by my gaming standards) through my 19" TFT
Any idea what the changes are compared to he old one? I hope that it at least supports 1280x1024 resolution so your TFT does not need to interpolate?
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Where can one buy the new version of the CM-345S?
Does it work with NTSC modes, or is it PAL only?
-bubba
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I bought one of these CM-345S about a month back, and IMHO its nowhere as good as my DCE ScanMagic. But it does its job, my version can only display 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 from the scart input! and on these screenmodes the picture is'nt that sharp, I'm sure I read somewhere in this post that someone said you could adjust the sharpness but its one option I dont have!
Does it work with NTSC modes, or is it PAL only?
I can display NTSC/PAL modes, from the scart input!
And one thing, I really dont like about this CM-345S is the stupid little control I keep losing. :pissed:
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Hi,
I noticed that you seem to be quite up on the CM345S.
I have just purchased one of these units and have hooked up my own scart connector but am having trouble getting things to work.
Ive tried reading through the forum but there are that many posts about what to wire to where that I can't follow it.
Ive tried uploading a picture for you to look at but cant get it to upload so heres a description of that ive got.
Amiga Scart
3 15 R
4 11 G
5 7 B
16 13 RG
17 9 GG
18 5 BG
19 18 BLANKING GROUND
FRAME 21 FRAME GND
Please help me :-?
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I just got a CM345s and I am having some issues. When connected to my 19" LCD, I get horizontal color banding and jittering in screen areas that are dithered. I was going to try it on a CRT, but a connection SCART cable broke.
Has anyone seen similar problems? I'm hoping it's an issue with the LCD as I had similar problem when using a toast scan on the same LCD.
-bubba
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@ Amidude - love the avatar.
@ Brass
I think your Amiga/scart connections aren't right. I built my own some time back and it works great outputting RGB to LCD TV's. Should work with your CM345S.
Try this:
Function ------ Amiga ----- Scart
Red ------------- 3 -------- 15
Green ----------- 4 -------- 11
Blue ------------ 5 --------- 7
Blanking Gnd --- 19 -------- 18
Video Gnd ------ 17 -------- 17
Composite Sync - 10 -------- 20
+12v Blanking -- 22 -------- 16 (via 150 ohm resistor)
+12v RGB Switch- 22 --------- 8 (via 1K ohm resistor)
Right Audio ----------------- 2
Left Audio ----------------- 6
R + L Audio Gnd ------------ 4
Shield Gnd ----------------- 21
Dr Dekker
ps - sorry for the wibbly-wobbly details - looked great until they were submitted! :lol:
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Thanks for the response, getting stuck into it this evening, do you also know ?
I noted that the many of the connections specified mention 75ohms, would using 75ohm sheilded coax acheive a better result than any other form of wiring ?
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I'm sure it would. However, I used a cheapo scart lead bought from Aldi - cost only 2 quid. The RGB wiring is 75 ohm shielded. I simply replaced one scart connector with a 23-pin D-sub (adding the resistors to this end) and disconnected any unused wires from both ends. The display to my LCD TV (via RGB) is crystal clear. :-)
One thing that I think I may have missed off the connection details, was that the RGB grounds are also connected to the video ground.
SCART - R gnd 13, G gnd 9, B gnd 5.
Amiga - Video gnd 16-20.
I'm not too sure whether I connected all the ground pins (16-20) together and then connected the rgb grounds, or I just assigned a separate pin to each ground. I don't think it matters really. I'll take a look tonight to see what I've done and let you know.
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Anyone ever try this?:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009Y7B1I/sr/ref=pd_cp_e_title/002-9040532-8628023?ie=UTF8&qid=1177854774&sr=8-7&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_r=1RY08R71T5WWMQGW8G76&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=250314601&pf_rd_i=B000MD79PE
Regards.
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I just want to give AmiDude and others in this thread a big Thank you! for the tip on the CM345S.
I bought one last week from hificables.co.uk, plugged in my A600 and a 19" CRT and it worked! But best of all, the picture quality is absolutely amazing!!
Thank you all,
Peter
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Christ, this thread still going? :-o
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@magistral
the one on amazon.com, doesn't supports RGB in input. Hence the very lower qualty.
I'll go with the CM345S me too. It looks like a good device.
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You mentioned it works in NTSC mode, but that's on a PAL machine in NTSC mode... does it actually work with an NTSC machine? This link says it is PAL to VGA only...
http://www.firebird-systems.com/graphics/tuners/cmt345.shtml
Does that even matter for the RGB input? I don't think there is any difference between PAL and NTSC in RGB except for the refresh rate.
Only the composite and s-video signals would be different.. so those inputs would not work correctly I bet.
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Just followed the link - at approx £91 that's well cheap!!!
In the 'dear' old (rip-off) UK, that'd cost you £150 - approx $300. :madashell:
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no voltage was supplied on Video Pin23.
its just the blown fuse, very common problem. trivial to replace. but its pretty expensive because its small, so called microfuse .
I had it on A2000 motherboard. RF modulator wouldnt work without it.. obviously
this thread is too long, can someone give me conclusion?
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vic20owner wrote:
You mentioned it works in NTSC mode, but that's on a PAL machine in NTSC mode... does it actually work with an NTSC machine? This link says it is PAL to VGA only...
http://www.firebird-systems.com/graphics/tuners/cmt345.shtml
Does that even matter for the RGB input? I don't think there is any difference between PAL and NTSC in RGB except for the refresh rate.
Only the composite and s-video signals would be different.. so those inputs would not work correctly I bet.
your posted link is related to the Component input only (not the RGB that we need).
Keep as reference the Cypress home page (http://www.cypress.com.tw/product.php?PId=90518&CId=001&CName=PC%)
and the "PAL" is related to the Composite-YC and tuner bits.
Here the tuner/component version CM345T unuseful with Amigas (http://www.cypress.com.tw/product.php?PId=40069&CId=001&CName=PC%25&SR=0)
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I'm hoping someone with a CM345s will test this for me:
As per AlexH from a different thread regarding 24 bit scan converters:
As an example, open this image in windows with a 24-bit (or 32-bit) screen.
http://www.spronkey.com/sdc-gradients.png
Then change the colours to 16-bit. You will see the loss of information on the 256-colour (smooth) gradient bars.
Someone with a CM345s and an AGA equipped Amiga please open this image and see if you see gradient bars in a 24 bit mode.
Thanks,
Sigmason
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http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35527
Jens Schoenfeld's post near the end of that topic blows away all other scandoublers. It is internal, so no DIGITAL->ANALOG->DIGITAL->ANALOG issues. 24-bit supports all Amiga screen modes.
It's what A1200 users want!
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It's what A1200 users want!
And it's useless for all the other models and the Video Toaster. So sadly, while I completely agree that avoiding the reconversion is a great thing, it's of little value to me as I don't have an A1200.
This isn't about a market to me, it's about making it work. If it were about money, I'd be sitting here with my logic analyzer and a schematic tearing apart my Amiga boards.
I just want something simple and with limited risk to chips that won't be easy to replace, even if it may cause some issues.
Sigmason
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Double post - deleted.
Sigmason