Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: harima_kun on October 12, 2005, 11:14:07 PM
-
So the XBox 360 is coming out next month, what do you guys think is this a system worth investing in? I must admit I am quite interested plus I can get it from Japan for 80 quid less than the Uk :)
-
Investing is a curious word when used in conjunction with the purchase of equipment that immediately depreciates in value!
I'd personally hang on and see what happens with the XBox 360 vs the Playstation 3... I guess it depends on whether or not backwards compatibility is important, plus which system has the potential to run homebrew code / emulators, plus the set of games available at launch, game cost, etc...
I rushed in at the launch of the previous generation of consoles and bought a GameCube - which on paper at least would appear more capable than the PS2, but history has shown that I made the wrong choice in terms of the availability and cost of the games available...
So this time, I'll wait and see, and maybe make a decision once the initial hype has worn off! Besides, the ol' GameCube still plays Burnout and Burnout 2 fine - which is mainly what I use it for!
- Ali
-
harima_kun wrote:
So the XBox 360 is coming out next month, what do you guys think is this a system worth investing in? I must admit I am quite interested plus I can get it from Japan for 80 quid less than the Uk :)
Wait until your neighbor gets one... Then steal it.
-
Interesting, although the PS2 is more popular, the Gamecube is my favourite of the 3 current generation consoles and is much more fun IMO.
-
I think I'll wait for the PS3 since it is rumored to be more open with an open-source operating system on the optional hard drive and a faster processor.
-
SamuraiCrow wrote:
I think I'll wait for the PS3 since it is rumored to be more open with an open-source operating system on the optional hard drive and a faster processor.
The processor is theoretically faster, but it requires a greater shift in programming methodology to achieve that performance. The XBox 360 has 3 general purpose cores whereas the PS3 has one general purpose cores and seven SPEs that are largely dedicated to vector math.
I'm currently in the XBox 360 camp. By the time the PS3 comes out it will have a bigger library (assuming you don't count titles from the previous generation) and it looks like it will be more developer friendly than the PS3 (in difficulty to program, not necessarily in openness).
I like the motion sensing of the Revolution's controller, but I'm not crazy about the idea of having to attach junk to my TV for it to work. The remote control format doesn't really jive with my sensibilities either. Also Nintendo has given me little reason to believe that it won't be quite underpowered compared to the competition (they're announced 2-3x more powerful than the Gamecube isn't terribly encouraging).
Regardless, the smartest thing to do is wait until they're out and see which one has more games that you want to play. Even on the basis of graphics alone, everything is mostly speculation (to a lesser extent on the XBox360 since there's been more content shown, the leaked PGR3 video is quite impressive).
-
I'm not willing to pay 200-300 bucks for a console and then 50-60 bucks a game for it. Thats why i usually stay one system behind. I recently got a game cube for 50 dollars, with 2 controllers and 2 games + extension cords. I can get games for like 10 bucks at k-mart. Before that i had a dream cast i bought at a thrift store for 20 bucks, and i could get games for it at like 2 dollars a piece.
The only difference between older consoles and the new ones is the level of detial in graphics. Most games suck really bad anyway, only a handful are really worth playing. I'd say theres probably on average only a dozen really good games per each generation of console.
I'll pick up an xbox 360 4 or 5 years from now.
-
@ SamuraiCrow
Open-source and Sony dont go in the same sentence. See the recent PSP firmware lockouts for one example.
Sure, there will probably be a poorly supported and extremely rare official linux port, but if PS2 is any example it will be expensive and next to useless.
Using a console to run general computer tasks is like using a motorbike to tow a trailer; possible, but ultimately it's missing the point.
-
coldfish wrote:
@ SamuraiCrow
Open-source and Sony dont go in the same sentence. See the recent PSP firmware lockouts for one example.
Sure, there will probably be a poorly supported and extremely rare official linux port, but if PS2 is any example it will be expensive and next to useless.
Using a console to run general computer tasks is like using a motorbike to tow a trailer; possible, but ultimately it's missing the point.
The lockout stuff they put into consoles is interesting, but whats the point of it? Homebrew games on the consoles are usually very sub standard, and almost nobody playes them. ( Take a look at some of the dream cast home brews). Almost nobody buys a console just for running linux/net bsd, and thoes who do usually end up buying a few games anyway, so no skin off the manufacturers back. If a company tried to make a game for a console and market it without going through the proper legal crap and contracts with nintendo/ms/sony etc, they would be sued to obilivion.
The only reasons i can think of for putting these mesaures in the devices is for region limiting and antipiracy stuff. Also probably so they get more legal leverage with the new freedom limiting laws that seem to keep getting railed through government, like the DMCA.
Do they really give a rats ass if a few geeks turn their video game hardware into useless *nix boxes?
-
Well one thing to consider is what type of games you like. If you like PC games, then the 360 would probably be a good go. If you are more into the "what's hot at the moment" type of title, the you are definatly a Sony guy. Otherwise if you want some long forgotten classic, paired with originality and innovation, then you may want to hold out for Nintendo.
I HIGHLY doubt that Sony or M$ machine will be anything near as fast as they say. I have a feeling these CPU's are kind of the the Celerons of PPC. The price is too low, and Apple has shown disgust in the design of the Sony CPU. Infact when Sony asked to have OSX on the Sony, Apple turned them down outright, though that may change. None the less, I'm sure Steve Jobs had reasons, and I'm willing to bet it's because the CPU isn't as full featured as the typical PPC CPU that you'd find in a Mac.
So if Sony has cut corners on the CPU somehow to save costs, then I'm sure Microsloth is too. They are doing all labor in China, and you know they don't pay them crap, so I'm sure they'll cut any corner they can!
The second thing to take into account is that Microsloth is known for sucking ballz. Though that's only when it comes to software and fair play. When it comes to hardware, they are right on! About all my hardware is Microsloth, that being my XBOX, Mouse, Keyboard, etc.
Sony on the other hand is known for lying out the ass, and on top of that, they have a bad rap with v 1-8 of the PS2, as they used all the cheapest components possible, making returns, and refurbs commen place with the Sony croud. As for the lying bit, well I think we were all amazed when the PS2 first came out, had less video RAM than the Dreamcast (which took them 3 years to work around), it was hard to code for, most Dreamcast games looked better in compared to the PS2's 1st 2 gernerations (even many modern titles), it DID NOT make PS1 games look better, it was not near as fast, nor could it do near as many polys as they claimed, plus the DVD play back sux ballz!
Of course you have the occasional XBOX that is flakey, due to them using some a few Toshiba drives in some models, but for the most part, the Samsung drives that you find in a lot of XBOX's, hold up quite well.
Lastly there was the Gamecube, which I don't recall any false hype over, though I could be wrong. It just introduced itself as better than the PS2 (but of course) and a tad weaker than the XBOX, and delivered "once again" a ton of innovation, and great sequals to wonderful classics in a style that only Nintendo has.
As for the next generation, don't worry about GFX unless yo have a hi-def TV. Pretty much all systems will look the same, and as with the 1st Nintendo and the Sega Master System, or the Genesis and the SNES, each system with have its strenghts, and each its weaknesses. Though personally I feel we are at that point that those weaknesses and differences will not be very apparent, with the exception of Nintedo who is doing some fun stuff with how we interact with games, thus creating a new type of gaming like the DS is doing.
Me:
I'll prolly buy all 3, though the Sony will ONLY be if OSX or a VERY user friendly Unix clone comes with the hard drive, and only if it has a STRONG homebrew community, cause really, that's where it's at, HOMEBREW!
-
The lockout stuff they put into consoles is interesting, but whats the point of it? Homebrew games on the consoles are usually very sub standard, and almost nobody playes them. ( Take a look at some of the dream cast home brews).
The Dreamcast homebrew scene is rather alive still. 80% of what I currently am running on my Dreamcast is homebrew applications. This I haven't even tried yet, but it was said to be rather interesting: http://www.drill.rr.nu/ ...but anyways, that wasn't my point. My point was that the point with lockout stuff, in my world, is to prevent the following:
1. If region lockout: That people will import games from regions releasing the games before their own region, making the launch of the title in their own region not as comercially succesful as planned.
2. If cd- or dvdr lockout: What do you think killed the Dreamcast (or at least made it last so extremely shortly) besides not all too many big titles being released?
I am pretty sure that if the Gamecubes lockout had been busted earlier than it was the console wouldn't be alive by today. For some reason the companies developing games seems okay with the fictious thought that if a game should be released for the Gamecube it must be adjusted to suit children, thus the lack of "mature" titles to be found. EVen when Square returned to Nintendo they didn't bring a blockbuster title to the Gamecube, no, they played along with this "it has to be for children"-thought and brought the world the extremely crappy multiplayer Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles which no one seems to like the slightest. The console is doomed, not due to lack of power, but due to lack of prejudice. And if it hadn't been due to nobody being able to bust the lockout all too early, I think it would have been dead as a console by today.
I wonder how well the AMiGA would be doing by today if every single commercial game being played at people's homes would have been bought. Utopia, yes, but just a thought anyways.
-
Maybe something along the lines of the 3DO only on crack? :)
-
Buy a console for the games. It wasn't until two years after the system was released that I found games that justified the investment into a PS2. Also, I don't like the idea of buying a system right when it comes out. I bought my PSX on pre-order, and it blew up within a couple of weeks due to overheating. The replacement they gave me still has the damned choppy video problem.
I'll probably get a PS3 a year after it's released. XBox games have never interested me, and I want to play my existing PS2 titles on an HDTV display. Hopefully, Sony will add antialiasing support to the PS2 emulator in the PS3. That would be AWESOME.
Actually, that's a good question. Does anyone know if XBox 360 or PS3 runs games better than the previous systems, or if they are designed to run old software "as is"? My guess would be the latter. The PSXe emulator on the PC proved that you could substantially improve the quality of an old game, but the backwards compatibility built into the PS2 absolutely sucked (even the "fast" CD mode has never worked for me).
As for getting an OS to run on a console, none of these companies have ever put any serious effort into getting a decent OS for these systems. We'll probably just see the usual sproutings of "media centers" and other silly gimicks before everybody realizes, once again, that these systems are still game machines, and the marketeers are just trying to whip up some more hype.
Can you say, "Emotion Engine"? Pretty fancy name for an embedded MIPS. :-)
-
oes anyone know if XBox 360 or PS3 runs games better than the previous systems, or if they are designed to run old software "as is"?
The XBox 360 won't support full backwards compitability as far as I know. There are even some criterias that must be met in order to be able to play the old games (but concerning how the actual emulation will work I don't know anything about):
1. In order to run old games your XBox 360 must not be of the "light" version without the harddrive... or...
2. The games released for the old XBox must have an inbedded emulator (which in other words means that only new games that includes this emulator software will run unless you have the non "light" version of the XBox 360).
To make things even more interesting... the "light" version of the XBox 360 will not be able to run some of the XBox 360 games, since some of them will require a harddrive. How great is that, not?
It may be that the PS2 never did run old games the way it initially was told to do (with better looking graphics and less loading times), but at least it ran all the old PS1 titles (as far as I've seen) wihtout any problems.
As far as ePSXe is concerning for running PS1 titles under Windows... well, I've finally managed to make a setup which seems to run what I've tested the way it is meant to be run... but the plugin system used really sucks. Not only is one confronted with the hassle of finding which plugins to use (and which are most compatible with the games that one wants to run), after that there is a mess of options to deal with. Yet I haven't found a good way to run Final Fantasy IX, the copy protection on the original CD's are to dependent on the emulator emulating the PS1 perfectly... and furthermore I still haven't managed to get Symphony Of The Night to run flawlessly... for some reason I always get down to the option of running it not in fullscreen, or in fullscreen always besides when the actual gameplay kicks in where I suddenly get big black borders on top and bottom of the screen. But, since the rest of my games seems to work so well, I just won't bother adjusting the settings any more, I will probably just end up screwing it all up again.
Why can't emulation work as well as in Shapeshifter... or in AmiMastergear which is one hell of an emulator (besides not running one of my favourite SMS games ever, the rather cute port of Ys).
Oh well.
-
I use&like PS2 very much. it has some problems playing divx (dvds are fine), but its designed for games anyway. driving simulations and platform games are really awesome on it. OTOH fps games suck without mouse and keyboard. Although you can connect USB mouse, its very low quality in games.
Xbox??? why would you want a nonupgradeable PC.. it doesn't seem to me like a console or a computer, and its M$ product anyway :angry:
-
Thanks for all your help guys, it is good to see the range of opinon, I must admit that I think I will probably get all three systems as I am going to be moving to Japan in the next few months but at the moment I am console.....less....or something so I was intruiged by the XBox 360, I did like my previous XBox, Live and Doom 3 were fantastic and it really felt like there were games more for the older generation on the XBox but the PS 3 really does look amazing ...... oh well, prob get the XBox 360 in December from Japan and then get the PS 3 when it comes out :) I gotta admit I like my gadgets lol Cheers for all your help though guys it good to hear from people who know what they are talking about!
-
But, really... Doom 3 does anything but run smoothly on the XBox... =/ ...(my guess is that) it was a bit too demanding for the system thus the not really high framerate. But on the other hand, Doom 3 for the PC must be one of the worst written games ever... I mean, what hardware does it demand? It ain't that much nicer than Half Life 2 (if at all), and Half Life 2 runs rather nice on even a <2GHz Pentium with 256MB of RAM and a somewhat decent GFX-card. I am yet to see Doom 3 run really smooth on ANY system.
Alien Breed 3D II, anyone? I am still waiting... but running smooth it ain't, ever.
-
HopperJF wrote:
Interesting, although the PS2 is more popular, the Gamecube is my favourite of the 3 current generation consoles and is much more fun IMO.
Ditto!
If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360. That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox. Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's. Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.
Nintendo states that their system is going to be 3-5 times more powerful than the GC. What you don't understand is that when they make that statement, it applies to every aspect of the system, not an overall value. That said, it seems they will use a full PPC chip again. Any by that I mean -not a Celeron'd version like in the 360. It will be 2.5GHz out-of-order executing PPC G5. The 360 is using an in-order executing core...to save money but have a higher clock. O-O has better efficiency. It's what current PC cpu's behave like now and have been for a long time.
Look at the G3 Gekko (GX) in the Gamecube now. It's a full PPC chip with an extra 37 SIMD instructions (similar to altivec on the Motorola G4) to boost performance and can run on a 200Mhz bus. The previous IBM offering could (G3 FX) could only run a 133MHz bus. Though in the GC it is downclocked to 162.5 in order to do a 3x cpu:gpu clock ratio. The orginal design was for a 200MHz flipper and 400MHz G3. Now it's a 486Mhz G3 and 162.5 MHz Flipper. I guess the developers wanted that.
The interesting thing is that this change in specs was made about 4 months before launch. Makes me think that by playing with a few resistors on the GC's board you can custom select some frequencies.
Also, when Nintendo posts performance numbers, they are always real-world numbers. The PS2 and XBOX posted 70million and 125 million polygons per seconds capabilities respectively and Nintendo said they could do 12 million real world, textured ...etc... polygons per second.
Show me one cross platform game that looks better on the PS2 than on the Gamecube! - Exactly - doesn't exist. But I can show you many games that do look better on the Gamecube than on the PS2. The entire Resident Evil series (um - hello! who said there were no MATURE titles on the Gamecube?) comes to mind instantly for starters.
Nintendo is also coming out about 9 months after the 360. ATI has been developing the next Nintendo GPU for a year and a half longer than they developed the 360's GPU.
Don't count out Nintendo. That's all I'm saying. 100% Gamecube compatability and downloadable NES, SNES and N64 (and possibly GB/GBA) titles won't hurt either. That 3D motion and positional sensing controller with plug-in configurations will make FPS games a dream to play on the machine...not to mention RTS. It will be a better interface than the mouse. The next step is to make a 3d holographic display...and then where will we be? Nice.
-
Ah yeah Alien Breed 3D II now that would be amazing, that is a game which IMHO should be done up and converted to all consoles because that game deserves a make over and would seriously kick ass! Well I don't have a PC to be honest so the closest I have got to playing PC games is the XBox.
-
I also like the Gamecube the most.
I just find it so sad that no one seems to dare to make any good ports or original games for the console. There are remakes and continuations of already existing series... but I have yet to see a large scale developed game to hit the cube the last few years. And I also find it sad that it is looked upon as a children console, but fact is, that there is no PS2 game that couldn't have been made and even made better on the Gamecube. It just so happens that there is something going on at the moment in the market where people seem to think that games for "adults" must be gray, green or dark and/or lots of blood and violence in them.
How could it be that Metroid Prime 2 - Echoes were so overlooked? It is an "adult" game. But, no, when there are adult games released for the system they seem to be ignored. Last time it seemed to work was when Resident Evil 4 were released... but, alas, don't they just have to make a port for the PS2 aswell. My guess is that is because of the fact that they are realising that there is much more money to make out of that port than the original Gamecube release because now the game has got the hype that they were looking for and now the real consumers, the mass, will be treated with the game with some goodies added.
Thing is. The Dreamcast killed all the competition when it was released. But it didn't make it. It could easily have lived on and competed with the PS2 if there were larger developer support for the machine (and if it hadn't been so darn easy to play pirated games on the console). In fact, it does sometimes feel like the battle should have been between the Dreamcast and the PS2, not between the Gamecube, PS2 and XBox. But, at least nowadays the developers seems to have overcome the obstacles that made it so hard to develop games for the PS2 using what the hardware really had to offer. But, when I start to play games like Shenmue, Rayman 2 or Ikaruga on my Dreamcast... dear god... what could that machine have been able to deliver it it would have had the time to be explored, just like the PS2?
Oh, well... back to the Gamecube... I love the console for its potential... and the fact that most games, even the PAL ones, can be run in perfectly smooth 60Hz. Looking at the various versions of GTA for the PS2, I can't understand how people can even accept the crappy framerate (in Vice City they have tried to hide it behind some kind of blur filter when things are going to fast, but the effect is rather bad control at that times instead).
Why can't the world wake up and realise what they need to do?
*grumble*
-
harima_kun wrote:
Ah yeah Alien Breed 3D II now that would be amazing, that is a game which IMHO should be done up and converted to all consoles because that game deserves a make over and would seriously kick ass! Well I don't have a PC to be honest so the closest I have got to playing PC games is the XBox.
Hmmm. I played Alien Breed 1 & 2 and 3d. What I liked about 1 & 2 was the puzzle aspects along with the action. I'm now playing Metroid Prime on the GameCube and THAT is exactly what it is. It's Alien Breed 3D - 4 or something. It's just so beautiful, huge and awesome.
-
Hmmm. I played Alien Breed 1 & 2 and 3d. What I liked about 1 & 2 was the puzzle aspects along with the action. I'm now playing Metroid Prime on the GameCube and THAT is exactly what it is. It's Alien Breed 3D - 4 or something. It's just so beautiful, huge and awesome.
Alien Breed have never been about getting that item over there then backtracking ones way back to the very beginning of the game to realise that it can be used there to unlock something entirely new (as far as I've played the series, which isn't really that much). Alien Breed has always been about minor puzzles solved in each level just to progress to the next. Even the 3D ones in the series. Though, if they had developed their concept it could have gotten somewhere closer in touch with the Metroid series, maybe.
That is one thing I have always found lacking in AMiGA games in general. They didn't develop their concepts. Turrican II did try some daring things, like making three stages in the otherwise rather ordinary (but excellent, may I add) platform game shoot'em up ones... and it worked perfectly. Why didn't that game inspire other to dare aswell?
For one thing, most platformers used this concept of instead of creating really huge, smart laid out and intriguing stages, which held the player occupied for some time, making them short and too complex with so much crammed in there that was physically possible... just to lengthen the time of playing by adding something that needed to be collected before one could exit the stage... Super Frog, Zool, Kid Chaos, and so on... not that I consider Super Frog being a bad game, but it could have done so much better with nicer layout of the levels without that boring coincollecting.
Concerning Metroid, once again, Exile is often compared to that very game... I haven't played Exile much at all, but I have yet to find any similarities?
-
Well, SEGA shot themselves in the foot by releasing the 32X and Saturn practically at the same time then the DC only 2-3 years later. Too many systems for it's own fans to support. Then ontop of that, they were so keen on pushing their sports titles that they never went out and got EA on board.
You can't piss off EA. Sad but true.
Finally, many DC games were ported to the GC as director's cuts. Skies of Arcadia was incredible. Ikaranga (spelling?) was also ported...and it's sequel I believe.
The DC could out texture the PS2 but the PS2 had a slight polygon count edge. The DC was easier to program for. The Gamecube out does both in every aspect. The only thing the PS2 has on the GC is 12cm 4.7GB DVD's vs. 8cm 1.8GB DVD's, digital sound output and Nintendos lack of online-enabled game support...though it did offer a broadband adapter...
The GC's memory card size was initially a limitation but they fixed that soon enough.
The GBA-connectivity was neat but mostly a whatever the Dreamcast can do, Nintendo can do better feature...though it's brilliant in Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles and Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure...however if those 2 games were online-enabled, they would have sold millions. It's hard to get 4 people with 4 GBA's and link cables to come together long enough to finish those games.
XBOX is just a PC in console's clothing so it was never a worthwhile investment for me as I already own a much more powerful PC already. It brought nothing new to the table except for pushing online play. I'd much rather play HALO on the PC than the XBOX. The best XBOX titles (mind you those are few and far between) also have superior PC releases. Microsoft initially delayed the PC release on purpose on many a title in order to "push" the XBOX on people... That's OK, I can wait.
-
Finally, many DC games were ported to the GC as director's cuts. Skies of Arcadia was incredible. Ikaranga (spelling?) was also ported...and it's sequel I believe.
Concerning the rest you said I agree. SEGA did themselves no favour when not getting EA onboard, and neither by releasing the SEGA CD, SEGA 32X and SEGA Saturn in a row. Not good planning.
But, back to the ports... the port of Skies of Arcadia was really a work of haste. Not only did they screw up the music (it sounds like bad midi music on the Gamecube) but also the blur-filter which was used on the Dreamcast (you can see it at approx 50% of the screen and upwards on both consles, the textures do get kind of blurry) probably mainly due to not making the game lose FPS was not needed on the Gamecube... but it is there anyways. They could have raised the FPS, but no. And another problem was that the Gamecube version became too sharp at times... grahicswise. Just look at the clouds in the very intro/titlescreen on the Dreamcast and compare them with the Gamecube dito... they look terrible... =)
Oh well. Bad port, but fantastic game anyways. I love it!
Ikaruga, made by Treasure (oh, that company can make me wet my pants at times), yep... it is an indirect sequel to the Saturn/Arcade game Radiant Silvergun (it may be that the game has recieved an unbelievable amount of praise, but I have never spent so many hours with a shooter before... and that even though I just got hold of it a couple of weeks ago for the Saturn). Radiant Silvergun to me is the best shooter ever, and Ikaruga is great aswell... but a tad too hard.
Speaking of shooters... noticed some few shooters on the AMiGA which were rather good. The R-Type port is very playable... but not fantastic. R-Type 2 was better. But I had completely overlooked Disposable Hero and Z-Out... those games were great! Often I hear people praise Project X, but in reality I find that game nothing but very nice to look at and way too hard for its own good. I am quite an experienced shoot'em up player (a bit above average, maybe), but I have really much problems with getting past the very first levels of Project X.
Hahahaha... this must be one of the threads were I speak about most things... talk about having problems sticking to the very topic! I just got started, I guess... I can't help myself.
-
Yeah the Sega Saturn and Dreamcast really were for me the best consoles with some of the most innovative games and I don't mean by hardware but what the developers did within the confinded space of a standard saturn/dc pad. It is strange but the X Box for me is basically a Dreamcast 2, Sega have put a lot support behind it and for me that is why I support the XBox not because of MS but because of Sega's support which many people seem to ignore but if you were in Japan you would see how people perceive the X Box as more a Sega games platform, I loved playing Outrun 2 on the XBox that was amazing, monkey ball is coming out and the House of the Dead III, for people who like Sega arcade games sadly the X Box is the next step.
-
If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360. That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox. Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's. Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.
I'm going to take a wild guess here, but i bet they will be wiritng their games in c++. C++ obviously wasnt designed with concurrency in mind, so the compilers dont inheriently make use of multiple cores, but hey, thats what a threading library is for. Create your thread, assign it to a core, or just let the kernel take care of spreading your threads accross the cores. I am sure you are familiar with this, having used the windows threading library, or maybe even pthreads.
Or they could just use something like occam, but then you would have a high rate of suicide in the game programmer community.
-
lou_dias wrote:
If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360. That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox. Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's. Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.
You don't need a good compiler to take advantage of all 3 cores, you need to learn how to write a multi-threaded game. It won't be an incredibly easy transition, but games that were actually designed for next-gen hardware (like PGR3) instead of just beefed up versions of current-gen games look quite good already. Compilers still could stand to be better given that the cores are in order and have relatively poor branch prediction, but things are looking good with current compilers.
Nintendo states that their system is going to be 3-5 times more powerful than the GC.
Source please. Only numbers I've heard from Nintendo are 2-3 times more powerful not 3-5.
What you don't understand is that when they make that statement, it applies to every aspect of the system, not an overall value.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. They said the Revolution would be 2-3x more powerful than the Gamecube, not that each individual component would be.
It will be 2.5GHz out-of-order executing PPC G5. The 360 is using an in-order executing core...to save money but have a higher clock.
That's just rumor at the moment and I don't particularly buy it. The G5 is an expensive part and it would have been foolish of Nintendo to say that the Revolution would only be 2-3x more powerful when the chip that would power it has 5x the clockspeed a more complete vector unit and a substantially improved FPU.
Show me one cross platform game that looks better on the PS2 than on the Gamecube! - Exactly - doesn't exist.
The PS2 has a "weird" architecture compared to the Gamecube and XBox. Getting anywhere near what it's capable of requires that you tailor your game around the hardware. When developing a multi-platform game you have to shoot for the middle of the pack. In the next generation, the PS3 and XBox360 will be relatively similar. Both have high speed, but not incredibly sophisticated processors and both depend on thread level parallelism for high performance. If the rumors about the Revolution are true, then it will be the odd-man out next generation, much like the PS2 was this generation.
Nintendo is also coming out about 9 months after the 360.
Nintendo hasn't published a release date other than saying sometime in 2006.
Don't count out Nintendo.
They've sold fewer consoles with each generation and I so no reason that trend won't continue. The Gamecube has some great first and second party games, but the third party lineup was quite weak and that's not going to improve unless they manage to get some more marketshare.
That 3D motion and positional sensing controller with plug-in configurations will make FPS games a dream to play on the machine...not to mention RTS. It will be a better interface than the mouse.
FPS games will still suck on the console for lack of buttons. I'll reserve judgement on how well the whole motion sensing works out until I can try one, but I'm not crazy about having to attach extra junk to my TV to make it work. The plug-in concept seems to defeat the purpose of making the controller simple and remote shaped in the first place. The thing was supposed to be simple and approachable, but the plug-in add-ons just make the thing mroe complicated. I sort of see the following situation happening. Some games just need the remote, some need the analog stick, Gamecube/N64/SNES games and maybe some multi-platform games need the funny shell that makes it more like a standard controller. Would have been simpler if they had just added the motion/position sensing to the Gamecube controller and given it a minor tweak or two.
As for the XBox 360 and compatability, the game itself doesn't have to come with an emulator. The emulator comes with the hard drive. At the moment it's unclear which games will work. Popular titles like Halo and Halo 2 will definately work, more niche titles are more of a crap shoot at the moment. If compatability is important to you, I'd wait for a few months and see what people say. My guess is they will try their best to make every game work, but they aren't likely to test all games.
-
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5. They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.
As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:
cpu: 486Mhz vs. 2.5GHz > 5
disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3
memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5
sound: 64 channels Prologic IItrue Dolby Digital expected.
gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3
as for my claims on the cpu. You act like a G5 is expensive these days. The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers. If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime. Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board. A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5.
I'd still like to see your source of this information.
They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.
Shortly after is somewhat of a relative term and is a far cry to commiting to a release date.
As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:
Basically you're making your claim based on specs leaked by supposed developers who also claim that Nintendo hasn't even decided on the final specs yet.
disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3
I thought the revolution would use standard DVDs? Wouldn't that be either 4.7 or 8.something GBs?
memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5
Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.
gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3
I don't think the longer relationship argument is going to go very far. ATI must have had offered Microsoft a pretty sweet chip (or perhaps a really sweet pricing deal) to lure them away from nVidia (thus making backwards compatability more complicated). Furthermore, it seems it's a safe bet that Microsoft can promise to buy more chips than Nintendo.
as for my claims on the cpu. You act like a G5 is expensive these days.
Well it is expensive and Nintendo has this habit of trying to make a profit on every console they sell.
The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers.
And just how expensive is the cheapest Mac with a 2.5GHz or higher G5? If they were shoving them in Mac minis, I might agree that it's cheap.
If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime.
Apple sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.25 million Macintoshes in the last quarter. Hard to say how many of those were G5s, but all of the PowerMacs have two CPUs these days. Given that Nintendo has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 million Gamecubes I don't think they're in different ballparks.
Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board. A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.
And that means diddly squat. Microsoft's early dev machines were dual 2.5GHz G5s. That's not what they released in the end.
-
Making judgements on systems that aren't even finalized is foolish. Of course, making judgements based on specs alone is even more so. It all comes down to the games.
Even Nintendo agrees with this... Revolution Less Powerful (http://cube.ign.com/articles/654/654764p1.html)
Myself, I'll be picking up an XBox360 since it is available soon, and there are games that I want to play on it (Perfect Dark Zero, Project Gotham Racing 3, Madden 06, etc.)
If/when the PS3 and Rev come out I'll probably pick up those as well, provided there are good games for them.
For the GCN, it appears that the focus has officially shifted to the Rev, leaving it to an early death. Rapidly declining sales, lack of games, premiere titles falling off the release list and/or being delayed, etc. I think everyone could see this happening for a long time. After all, if your best launch title is Luigi's Mansion, then you have a problem.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5.
I'd still like to see your source of this information.
Go to ign.com or Nintendo.com and search old new articles from May
They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.
Shortly after is somewhat of a relative term and is a far cry to commiting to a release date.
to me shortly means - shortly, not the following quarter to thereafter.
As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:
Basically you're making your claim based on specs leaked by supposed developers who also claim that Nintendo hasn't even decided on the final specs yet.
disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3
I thought the revolution would use standard DVDs? Wouldn't that be either 4.7 or 8.something GBs?
read for yourself: http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=02ea1a40-ac09-4cdf-9548-91e5a4e78746&page=home the 6GB figure was stated by Perry Kaplan in an article around that time and on IGN.com
memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5
Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.
they've stated they will be less expensive than the 360 or PS3. Having more RAM makes that harder to achieve. Bet on 128 or 256MB.
gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3
I don't think the longer relationship argument is going to go very far. ATI must have had offered Microsoft a pretty sweet chip (or perhaps a really sweet pricing deal) to lure them away from nVidia (thus making backwards compatability more complicated). Furthermore, it seems it's a safe bet that Microsoft can promise to buy more chips than Nintendo.
Promises mean nothing. ATI designed the chip but MS owns the rights to it and can have anyone manufacture it. That's a fact.
as for my claims on the cpu. You act like a G5 is expensive these days.
Well it is expensive and Nintendo has this habit of trying to make a profit on every console they sell.
it's a simple law of economics. Any technology that has been around for a number of years gets cheaper because R&D costs have already been re-couped and manufacturing processes streamlined.
The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers.
And just how expensive is the cheapest Mac with a 2.5GHz or higher G5? If they were shoving them in Mac minis, I might agree that it's cheap.
when you buy a PPC Mac, you are not paying for a CPU and getting MAC OS X as a bonus, it's more like the other way around. You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime.
Apple sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.25 million Macintoshes in the last quarter. Hard to say how many of those were G5s, but all of the PowerMacs have two CPUs these days. Given that Nintendo has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 million Gamecubes I don't think they're in different ballparks.
about 20 million GC's have been sold in 5 years. Again you are paying for a brand with Apple not a cpu.
Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board. A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.
And that means diddly squat. Microsoft's early dev machines were dual 2.5GHz G5s. That's not what they released in the end.
[/quote]
yes, we all know early 360 devkits were MACs. So what? 2 magazines have made these statements. The same magazines that told us what the 360 devkits were.
Information leaks. You can ignore it or listen and get an idea of what to expect.
Here's the bottome line. To be easily 100% backwards compatible with the GC, Nintendo's only choice is to go with the G5. I for one won't complain.
Here's a Revolution FAQ: http://cube.ign.com/articles/522/522559p1.html
I believe it's page 3 that mention the "2-3 times more powerful" statement as being FALSE.
-
BTW, to the original poster. I'd be warry of buying a Japanese 360. First, it will be NTSC not the PAL video mode you need. Plus, it's probably that region protection will exist limiting you to only Japanese games.
-
Go to ign.com or Nintendo.com and search old new articles from May
By telling people to search for the information themselves, are you betting that they won't bother?
Showing sources generally involves links, not to mention more recent news than from May. :-)
Any technology that has been around for a number of years gets cheaper because R&D costs have already been re-couped and manufacturing processes streamlined.
What does that have to do with whether Revolution is based on a G5 or not? Nintendo is paying for a custom CPU design, but a G5 is still more expensive to manufacture than a G4, regardless of yield.
You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
Given your religious devotion to Nintendo, don't you find this statement even slightly ironic?
-
Hi mate, no worries I am moving to Japan anyways so that is why I am gonna buy a Japanese one but I thought while I am still in the UK might as well get to know it as it is cheaper :D
-
Waccoon wrote:
Go to ign.com or Nintendo.com and search old new articles from May
By telling people to search for the information themselves, are you betting that they won't bother?
Showing sources generally involves links, not to mention more recent news than from May. :-)
where's the proof of there counter claims to begin with. Atleast I point them in the CORRECT direction.
Any technology that has been around for a number of years gets cheaper because R&D costs have already been re-couped and manufacturing processes streamlined.
What does that have to do with whether Revolution is based on a G5 or not? Nintendo is paying for a custom CPU design, but a G5 is still more expensive to manufacture than a G4, regardless of yield.
Well the G4's been around alot longer than the G5 so that's expected. Also there is a natural progression to smaller dyes to get more chips out of each wafer. Are you arguing over common sense and the laws of economics? What for - using an existing chip design is less expensive than developing a completely new one. Have you ever heard of a triple-core cpu before the 360? Double - yes, quad - yes. Triple - NO! A new 3.2Ghz triple-core cpu is going to be more expensive than an established design. Just leaving out a branch predicter isn't going to save them that much money. They wanted a fast cpu to claim equal power to the PS3. Nintendo isn't going to top-of-the-line processing power, there systems have always been about efficiency, not raw power.
You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
Given your religious devotion to Nintendo, don't you find this statement even slightly ironic?
[/quote]
How so? Nintendo's GC was the least expensive this gen as 'Revolution' will be next gen. Apple chooses to charge a premium for their hardware. They sell enough products as much as any $40 x86 individual motherboard manufacturer and yet you are going to tell me that OS X should be more expensive than Windows when it has less built-in functionality and is based on BSD to begin with? Oh wait, we are getting back to the laws of economics aren't we. Apple sells 5 million copies of it's OS a year and Microsoft sells 100 million. That's why you pay a premium for the Apple OS + hardware bundle...sounds like the A1/OS4 bundle...
As far as Nintendo's image goes - they sell inexpensive but high quality (it don't break) hardware and charge a premium for their HIGH QUALITY SOFTWARE. Nintendo is primarily a games maker. Making the consoles just ensures them an untamed outlet for their creativity. Nintendo isn't trying to be the #1 console. They are trying to be everyone's second console. At a launch price of $200-250, they will be. As long as they can make a profit on hardware, they will create new consoles. When they can't then they will go the way of Sega.
BTW, the Gamecube may go down it price to $60-80 new by Christmas and I'd still like to stick AROS on it.
ps,
May be I'll start a new thread: "potential G5 PPC Amiga real cheap!"
Let's see, people can complain about no hard drive, then I can say hook one up to one of the USB 2.0 ports... Then they can say oh, that PPC isn't binary compatible...and dare me to prove them wrong meanwhile PPC compilers have been generating GC homebrew code just fine and will continue to do so as well on Revolution. Then they'll complain the hardware is out of date yet the last time they bought a PC was 1991... Then they'll complain that 802.11b/g Wi-Fi is too slow meanwhile no actual real-world internet download speed have exceeded .8Mbit/s partially because upload speeds from whomever you are downloading from is always alot less than download speeds... Then they'll complain it's not secure when Broadcom has the most secure Wi-Fi with transparent security built-in... Yadda yadda yadda... :rtfm:
But trolls will be trolls - I guess. :lol:
-
Man, people that didn't buy XBOX crack me up. Either they say Microsloth is crooked and run to Sony's teet to suck upon, who also run by crooked politics, and also favors international slave labour, not to mention that they are bad liers.
The other group say,"I don't want a locked down PC".
Well here's reality. It's not a PC. You don't have to install windows, you don't have a monitor, you don't have to keep your files sorted, virus',adware, trojans scanned, repair registry, wait for windows to figure out how to open up a text file, etc. Infact the ONLY thing winblows about it is the kernal. So what you get is "yes" a PC based machine, but no resources are wasted on a bloated OS! You just got a black box with 4 controller ports, that happens to boot and play games directly off the DVD, unless you've hacked your stuff into a Gaming Juke Box like I have.
It don't matter what's under the hood, it's how well it plays that counts. And I can say I've totally enjoyed having the XBOX around, and I can totally say that the PS2 looks like total crap in comparison and has nothing on it hardware wise. NOTHING!
But it's all in the games anyhow isn't it? Thus I have Gamecube for the inner child, and the XBOX for my adult side. I never got into Sony cause I had a computer when PS1 came out and at that time, PS1 looked like hell in comparison, but since the XBOX was Juke Boxable I got into it, and dsicovered there was a VERY unique library available for it, then Sega, and Ninteno are self explanitory...
...I'm 30. ;)
So when is a decent Atari coming out anyhow?!?!?!
-
Yeah I know what you mean, so many people put down the xbox for the most silly reasons ..... i know i used too as well, but when you get an xbox and play on live, you start to realise how much of a good system it is, for myself i love the sega games on the xbox it really is almost like having a dreamcast 2 and it looks like sega are behind the xbox 360 this time too, so down with microsoft but up with xbox! lol
-
lou_dias wrote:
Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.
they've stated they will be less expensive than the 360 or PS3. Having more RAM makes that harder to achieve. Bet on 128 or 256MB.
So you believe the leaks when it comes to the CPU, but not when it comes to the RAM?
Promises mean nothing. ATI designed the chip but MS owns the rights to it and can have anyone manufacture it. That's a fact.
All depends on the deal they struck with ATI and I have seen nothing to indicate that they actually bought the design from ATI. Everything would seem to suggest that ATI still owns the design and Microsoft is just going to buy chips from them. That's the way it works elsewhere, I don't see why it wouldn't work that way here as well.
when you buy a PPC Mac, you are not paying for a CPU and getting MAC OS X as a bonus, it's more like the other way around. You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
Top end PowerMacs are equivalent in price of high end machines of similar spec from other manufacturers. But lets do a little exercise. The Mac Mini is estimated to have a profit margin of around 50% so that means it contains about $250 of parts and it only has a lowly G4. For the most part it has similar parts to what you would find in your rumored Revolution except that most of them are less capable (the only exception being that the Mini has a hard drive and the Revolution has flash). Since the G5 is certainly a good deal more expensive than the G4 and the new GPU from ATI is certainly more expensive than the Radeon 9200 in the Mini, the manufacturing cost starts to put the console right in with Sony and Microsoft which Nintendo has publicly stated they won't do.
yes, we all know early 360 devkits were MACs. So what? 2 magazines have made these statements. The same magazines that told us what the 360 devkits were.
My point is that the 360 devkits and the final hardware weren't incredibly similar so there's little reason to believe that the Nintendo devkits are any more similar to the final hardware.
Here's the bottome line. To be easily 100% backwards compatible with the GC, Nintendo's only choice is to go with the G5.
They could go with any number of PowerPC processors from the G4 to one or more of the PPEs found in the X360 and PS3.
Here's a Revolution FAQ: http://cube.ign.com/articles/522/522559p1.html
I believe it's page 3 that mention the "2-3 times more powerful" statement as being FALSE.
It also says they haven't said how powerful it will be since then which puts a bit of a damper on the 3-5x argument.
In the same FAQ they also publicly stated that the machine will be less powerful than Microsoft's and Sony's offerings.
-
@Waccoon
"Emotion Engine" isn't the name for the mips main processor, it's just the name of one of the custom chips designed for the ps2.
-
@Legerdemain
Are you saying that the graphics improvement of ps1 titles isn't working. Well, among others, i played mgs1 with accelerated textures(instead of the blocky ones), and played very well. And for the other guy telling that the faster loading option didn't work, false, it works, the only thing it does is reducing the loading speeds in some games, not all.
-
How so? Nintendo's GC was the least expensive this gen as 'Revolution' will be next gen. Apple chooses to charge a premium for their hardware. They sell enough products as much as any $40 x86 individual motherboard manufacturer and yet you are going to tell me that OS X should be more expensive than Windows when it has less built-in functionality and is based on BSD to begin with?
OSX is not based on BSD. OSX is a NeXT system with a BSD compatability layer. To say that OSX has less built in functionality than a windows install indicates that you dont know much about OSX.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.
they've stated they will be less expensive than the 360 or PS3. Having more RAM makes that harder to achieve. Bet on 128 or 256MB.
So you believe the leaks when it comes to the CPU, but not when it comes to the RAM?
The leaks said 128 and 256, you are the one who alluded to an outrageous amount of RAM based on something you think you heard.
Promises mean nothing. ATI designed the chip but MS owns the rights to it and can have anyone manufacture it. That's a fact.
All depends on the deal they struck with ATI and I have seen nothing to indicate that they actually bought the design from ATI. Everything would seem to suggest that ATI still owns the design and Microsoft is just going to buy chips from them. That's the way it works elsewhere, I don't see why it wouldn't work that way here as well.
This is a matter of public record. MS owns the designs and can have anyone manufacture the chips. That's the difference between the XBOX and 360, now MS can find cheaper manufacturers...
...now they can run into the same quality issues Sony has had. :lol:
when you buy a PPC Mac, you are not paying for a CPU and getting MAC OS X as a bonus, it's more like the other way around. You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
Top end PowerMacs are equivalent in price of high end machines of similar spec from other manufacturers. But lets do a little exercise. The Mac Mini is estimated to have a profit margin of around 50% so that means it contains about $250 of parts and it only has a lowly G4. For the most part it has similar parts to what you would find in your rumored Revolution except that most of them are less capable (the only exception being that the Mini has a hard drive and the Revolution has flash). Since the G5 is certainly a good deal more expensive than the G4 and the new GPU from ATI is certainly more expensive than the Radeon 9200 in the Mini, the manufacturing cost starts to put the console right in with Sony and Microsoft which Nintendo has publicly stated they won't do.
You are ignoring the fact that a Radeon 9200 is a card. A card has to have supporting hardware to conform to AGP/PCIe standards. Also, any card you buy comes with driver software and packaging. Also there is bundled software. You pay for all that whether you realize it or not. Your cost comparisons are invalid.
yes, we all know early 360 devkits were MACs. So what? 2 magazines have made these statements. The same magazines that told us what the 360 devkits were.
My point is that the 360 devkits and the final hardware weren't incredibly similar so there's little reason to believe that the Nintendo devkits are any more similar to the final hardware.
[/quote]
That was the path Microsoft took because their total development time for the 360 was 2 1/2 years. They needed PPC hardware and compilers to test on and the Mac was a quick way to do that. That's their issue not anybody else's.
Nintendo, on the otherhand, has been doing R&D on Revolution since the GC was released (Nov 2001). Their development process is different as is Sony's. Nintendo prototype hardware leaks have only occurred within the last 6-8 months.
Here's the bottome line. To be easily 100% backwards compatible with the GC, Nintendo's only choice is to go with the G5.
They could go with any number of PowerPC processors from the G4 to one or more of the PPEs found in the X360 and PS3.
They could but then they would have so-called similar power levels to those systems. The GC's G3 (GX) 'Gekko' was an enhanced G3 FX that had a high fsb and 37 additional SIMD instructions. Expect similar enhancements to Nintendo's G5 after all it needs to do everything the 'Gekko' did. Finally, the G4 is a MOTOROLA chip. Nintendo has a contract with IBM, not MOTOROLA so read my typing: YOU WILL NOT SEE A G4 IN A NINTENDO PRODUCT.
Here's a Revolution FAQ: http://cube.ign.com/articles/522/522559p1.html
I believe it's page 3 that mention the "2-3 times more powerful" statement as being FALSE.
It also says they haven't said how powerful it will be since then which puts a bit of a damper on the 3-5x argument.
In the same FAQ they also publicly stated that the machine will be less powerful than Microsoft's and Sony's offerings.
Your point?
All I ever said or alluded to is that you will not see 100% processing power out of a PS3 or 360 in the first wave/generation of titles that are released because a fundamental change in programming and compilers is required to do so. What I did say is based on that developers have said that early 360 titles are only going to take advantage of about twice the power of the current XBOX.
If you read editorials reviewing the TGS in September, you could see proof of this as 360 games look beautiful in their level of detail but the animation is choppy and apparent A.I. is weak...and that can be due to a lack of cpu processing power.
Also, since, (this is my opinion now) I expect Nintendo to use a full G5 + enhancements, that Nintendo titles will be able to run at maxiumum system efficency and produce quality software from the beginning. Unforuntately, Nintendo hasn't committed to HD visuals even though it will still support 720x480 progressive scan (which is not considered 'hi-def').
-
oh...and what is NeXT based on? and by functionality, I meant to the apparent user, MS provides a browser, a firewall...etc... Apple provides an OS and QuickTime. I don't care that one kernal is superior to another. Either way is OS X was based on some pre-existing kernal then the R&D to gui it a MAC-gui couldn't have been that high. And that is where most of the R&D went.
-
lou_dias wrote:
BTW, the Gamecube may go down it price to $60-80 new by Christmas and I'd still like to stick AROS on it.
Possible, but with no good titles coming out, who will buy one? The Mario Party 7 bundle shows that Nintendo is trying to clear excess inventory.
ps,
May be I'll start a new thread: "potential G5 PPC Amiga real cheap!"
Let's see, people can complain about no hard drive, then I can say hook one up to one of the USB 2.0 ports... Then they can say oh, that PPC isn't binary compatible...and dare me to prove them wrong meanwhile PPC compilers have been generating GC homebrew code just fine and will continue to do so as well on Revolution. Then they'll complain the hardware is out of date yet the last time they bought a PC was 1991... Then they'll complain that 802.11b/g Wi-Fi is too slow meanwhile no actual real-world internet download speed have exceeded .8Mbit/s partially because upload speeds from whomever you are downloading from is always alot less than download speeds... Then they'll complain it's not secure when Broadcom has the most secure Wi-Fi with transparent security built-in... Yadda yadda yadda... :rtfm:
I'd wait until the specs are at least finalized/known. Right now your speculation isn't based on any facts or real information, just rumors.
".8Mbit/s" :crazy: :crazy:
But trolls will be trolls - I guess. :lol:
Yes, since you trolled this post and made it into another Nintendo fanboy rant...
-
Possible, but with no good titles coming out, who will buy one? The Mario Party 7 bundle shows that Nintendo is trying to clear excess inventory.
I just bought a Super Smash Bros Bundle to install my qoob chip on.
I'm not a Pokemon fan but since XD is a true RPG, I may check it out. Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (RPG) is out on Monday. I will be picking that up. Spartan:Total Warrior and other multi-platform games. Baten Kaitos 2 (RPG) might be out in time...Then there's the anime fighters like Zatch Bell; One Piece is out already...
They are releasing 2 bundles, a Pokemon XD bundle as well with an extra controller. MP7 comes with the microphone. The Bundles are still at $99 as a consumer I don't care as long as the price comes down. Means nothing to me, I already own 2. Every time they lower their price, sales go up. PS2 is expected to price drop to $99, I guess Sony is trying to clear excess inventory too - huh?
Microsoft is excepted to NOT lower the price of the XBOX. Now is it because they've stopped production and are already at a huge loss and are releasing the 360 anyway at a smaller loss, or is it because XBOX's are flying off the shelves?
May be I'll start a new thread: "potential G5 PPC Amiga real cheap!"
Let's see, people can complain about no hard drive, then I can say hook one up to one of the USB 2.0 ports... Then they can say oh, that PPC isn't binary compatible...and dare me to prove them wrong meanwhile PPC compilers have been generating GC homebrew code just fine and will continue to do so as well on Revolution. Then they'll complain the hardware is out of date yet the last time they bought a PC was 1991... Then they'll complain that 802.11b/g Wi-Fi is too slow meanwhile no actual real-world internet download speed have exceeded .8Mbit/s partially because upload speeds from whomever you are downloading from is always alot less than download speeds... Then they'll complain it's not secure when Broadcom has the most secure Wi-Fi with transparent security built-in... Yadda yadda yadda... :rtfm:
I'd wait until the specs are at least finalized/known. Right now your speculation isn't based on any facts or real information, just rumors.
".8Mbit/s" :crazy: :crazy:
show me a site where I can download a file from faster than 800k/s - even that figure was generous.
But trolls will be trolls - I guess. :lol:
Yes, since you trolled this post and made it into another Nintendo fanboy rant...
I'm glad you can appreciate a pupil following in your well-travelled footsteps, you sir are now trolling an accused troll.
Don't troll my 'so called' trolling fanboy rants and then maybe the trolling will end. But alas, you can take the poster out of the thread but you can't take the troll out of the poster...
-
I'll just ignore the Nintentroll and give some reasons to buy the XBox360.
#1 Perfect Dark Zero
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/perfectdarkzero/images/sim-5.jpg)
#2 Project Gotham Racing 3
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/e32005/pgr3/images/sim-ss4.jpg)
#3 Kameo
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/e32005/kameo/images/sim-kameo-021.jpg)
etc... These are launch titles, it's only going to get better as time goes on.
-
Bloody hec!!!! Those are some nice gfx, well what the hell there won't be another new system for half a year, might as well enjoy the power the xbox 360 can offer now :D
-
I used to be anti-microsft when I was younger.
As time progressed, you just learn to like them. :-)
I have two xbox's right now, and I am really looking forward to the xbox 360. Awsome power, and I like everything the original xbox offered.
My only favorite playstation is the original playstation. Awsome game lineup and never gets old, but I cant say the same about the playstation 2, since I personally think Dreamcast was by far superior.
The bottom line is, whatever your favorite games will be on, then buy that console. I am more of a retro gamer anyways. Though im 19, Atari 2600 dominates all. :-D
-
adolescent wrote:
I'll just ignore the Nintentroll and give some reasons to buy the XBox360.
#1 Perfect Dark Zero
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/perfectdarkzero/images/sim-5.jpg)
#2 Project Gotham Racing 3
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/e32005/pgr3/images/sim-ss4.jpg)
#3 Kameo
(http://www.xbox.com/assets/en-us/e32005/kameo/images/sim-kameo-021.jpg)
etc... These are launch titles, it's only going to get better as time goes on.
Try reading EXACTLY what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote or want to believe I wrote.
I said that the editors of major web/print magaines said the DETAIL LEVEL IS IMPRESSIVE, it's the animation and AI that is lacking because they can't take advantage of all the cores yet.
Yes, I agree it will get better.
-
i was also one of them that hated xbox becouse it was a microsoft product. but i got one cheap with chip and i just loved it, it did bring back all the fun that pc games where missing. i am gonna get a xbox360 when there is a mod chip for it thats for sure... and i am pretty sure xbox360 is gonna win the console competition. ps3 will come second and nintendo revolution will be squeezed out in the end.. who want child games anyway... its grown ups that play games for the most of the time now days.. nintendo was big in the supernintendo days but that was back in the 90's now its 2005...
calling a xbox for a pc is just silly and show that you dont know what you are talking about.... nintendo started the console revolution, playstation did take it to the next step, xbox is taking it future!....
________
612 scaglietti (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_612_Scaglietti)
-
Sports fans? Of course, all are these will be playable online...
Madden 06
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1199/1128350050.jpg)
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1199/1127611508.jpg)
FIFA 06
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1220/1128346442.jpg)
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1220/1128346445.jpg)
NBA Live 06
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1214/1128360139.jpg)
(http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1214/1120053626.jpg)
-
i like the pirate flag :)
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)
-
@_ThEcRoW
Are you saying that the graphics improvement of ps1 titles isn't working. Well, among others, i played mgs1 with accelerated textures(instead of the blocky ones), and played very well. And for the other guy telling that the faster loading option didn't work, false, it works, the only thing it does is reducing the loading speeds in some games, not all.
Nope, I am saying that it never was realised the way it was intended (or the way I thought it was intended in the beginning when they announced the feature).
The only difference I've seen in the graphics is that the textures are somewhat dithered. Doesn't look much prettier, and pherhaps they never said that it would look much prettier, but in relation to what I came to expect after their announcement, let's just say that I got... not much. Even the unfinished and hacked Bleem! emulator that someone showed me, running some PS1 titles on the Dreamcast, made some of the old games on the PS1 look prettier than on the PS2... and that's rather sad... but yet somewhat funny... =)
-
The only thing I have against the XBos is the lineup of games. Yes, there are RPG:s. Yes there are platformers. Yes, there are some odd games... But... still... mainly the lineup feels like a PC-games lineup.
You have got them racing games.
You have got them sports games.
You have got them FPS games.
Not until rather recently I have actually started to notice that there are some games of interest that have been released for the system... not at all saying that racing/sports/FPS are bad, just that I've seen it all before and it feels very PC and not at all innovative. Sure, the XBox lineup was great for those that wanted to bring PC-like titles to their television sets and playing them using a console, and the best yet online based system ever having graced a console (not all too updated concerning what have happened or is happening in that very area, but this far it seems that XBox Live! have beaten all competition by far).
So. To sum it up. I have nothing against XBox as a console. But I would not go as far as saying that it is taking anything to the next level. It just takes already existing concepts, trying to perfect them.
Nintendo would be the ones I consider trying taking the console industry to the next level, if any company. It may work. It may fail. But they are certainly the ones avant garde at the moment.
-
"who want child games anyway... its grown ups that play games for the most of the time now days.. "
Well... Me for one. The grown up world is grown up enough for me. I want a game that I can pick up, learn to play fairly quikly, put down when their are other things to do, and pick back up and play from time to time.
Replayability (if thats a word). Though I agree, I probobly won't buy a Revolution unless Nintendo blows my socks off.
-
The XBox does have a lot of PC like games yes but also look at the Sega arcade back log and the the games by Temco the XBox alone is worth owning just for the fantastic games released by these two companies which are usually xbox exclusives. Plus you had a Metal Slug 3 which ran perfectly on the xbox, there are some real gems which are not pc like and are true arcade quality which people seem to miss for some reason.
-
The XBox does have a lot of PC like games yes but also look at the Sega arcade back log and the the games by Temco the XBox alone is worth owning just for the fantastic games released by these two companies which are usually xbox exclusives. Plus you had a Metal Slug 3 which ran perfectly on the xbox, there are some real gems which are not pc like and are true arcade quality which people seem to miss for some reason.
In a way I am willing to agree. In another way I am about to disagree. I don't think people are unaware that there are good, unique and arcade perfect games having graced, say, the XBox. But I think that if there is an overall lack of certain prefered types of games one doesn't really search through the entire library of games for that specific console just to find those games one could consider gems.
I have never ever played a Neo Geo, for example, but I have heard people raving about Metal Slug for ages. But since like 90% of the entire catalogue for the Neo Geo consists of fighting games I have never been attracted to the system. Bad example, maybe, since that very game exists on many other system, but anyways. Point is, one game doesn't make me buy a console... it's the overall availabitlity of the types of games I prefer.
Last time I bought a console I bought the Gamecube. I love the console, but being into Japanese RPG:s it was really a bad choice. There's no option to owning a Playstation 2 (or Super Nintendo for that matter if one wants more old-school RPG:s) if one is locking for solid Japanese RPG:s. There's no real support for those kind of games on the XBox or the Gamecube (even though the Gamecube have been graced with rather some good RPG:s lately). Main reason for this is probably the huge lack of support of the original XBox in Japan. Even if there would be one major Japanese RPG released for the box which really looks awesome I wouldn't buy the system. Not for one game (or some few other gems).
-
Lou: You are buying a brand and paying a premium price for that brand in order to maintain an image.
Waccoon: Given your religious devotion to Nintendo, don't you find this statement even slightly ironic?
How so?
Uh, the fact that you are proclaiming Revolution the Best Console in the World(TM), even though final specs haven't been released? So, aren't you just a wee bit obsessed with the brand name? Nintendo has had its share of stinkers, which is how they lost their monopoly on the market in the first place.
Lou (on Apple): They sell enough products as much as any $40 x86 individual motherboard manufacturer and yet you are going to tell me that OS X should be more expensive than Windows when it has less built-in functionality and is based on BSD to begin with?
I don't recall suggesting anything about the cost of OS X. I said your devotion to Nintendo is ironic when you complained about branding and corporate image.
Me, I buy systems for the software that's available, not because of who made the hardware. For example, I own both a PS2 and a Gamecube, and though I'm a PC fanatic, I just bought a Mac mini, too.
That's what bugs me most about you and your Game'tude posts. Commodity and the quality of software possible on a given platform means nothing to you, and you always think that a hardware limitation is irrelevant since you can just buy some frankenstein hardware hack to solder to the guts of your console. You just want to force a Nintendo platform to be something it isn't.
where's the proof of there counter claims to begin with. Atleast I point them in the CORRECT direction.
The counter-claims are that there is no proof. Everything is speculation. Pointing people towards 3rd party gaming sites (read: rumor mills), and making them look for the unofficial information themselves can hardly be considered a "correct" direction.
Lou: ...now they can run into the same quality issues Sony has had.
So, you're suggesting that since Microsoft can have anyone make their chips, quality control will go down the drain?
Lou: You are ignoring the fact that a Radeon 9200 is a card. A card has to have supporting hardware to conform to AGP/PCIe standards. Also, any card you buy comes with driver software and packaging. Also there is bundled software. You pay for all that whether you realize it or not. Your cost comparisons are invalid.
Funny, I don't see a "card" in the Mac mini -- the board layout looks a lot like a game console and lacks all the extra hardware you usually see on PC graphics cards.
Game systems need bus logic just like any PC graphics card. Are you suggesting that AGP and PCIe standards cost a million times more than the custom busses used in consoles?
A "Free" driver for a PC GPU is the same as developer APIs for a game system. The end user pays for everything in one way or another.
Bundled software varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some cards come with 10 games, some come with nothing but raw drivers. This is all reflected in the retail price.
Lou: The GC's G3 (GX) 'Gekko' was an enhanced G3 FX that had a high fsb and 37 additional SIMD instructions.
So, the "G3" in the Gamecube isn't a G3. Maybe it's a G3.5.
Lou: YOU WILL NOT SEE A G4 IN A NINTENDO PRODUCT.
Official specs? Source? Illegal NDA-breaking insider information?
It's all custom engineering, anyway. A "G5" in Revolution won't be a G5.
BTW, nice use of all caps.
MskoDestny: In the same FAQ they also publicly stated that the machine will be less powerful than Microsoft's and Sony's offerings.
Lou: Your point?
Uh, that your specs are baseless?
If you read editorials reviewing the TGS in September, you could see proof of this as 360 games look beautiful in their level of detail but the animation is choppy and apparent A.I. is weak...and that can be due to a lack of cpu processing power.
Or, developers haven't find-tuned the engines for release. Even console demos always come with a disclaimer that says, "Does not relect quality of final product."
You know, I find it very difficult to find racing games that have decent, non-arcade-ish physics. Obviously, my CPU is completely to blame for this. The reason why cars bounce off walls unrealisticly is because my CPU is just not powerful enough. Hell, the hardware is to blame for everything!
Take a good look at the "XNA Crash Test" where a virtual Saleen is crashed into a wall at high speed and crumples. That animation was pretty damned smooth, IMO, and the physics are shockingly convincing.
oh...and what is NeXT based on?
MACH, the same microkernel used by BSD Unix.
Either way is OS X was based on some pre-existing kernal then the R&D to gui it a MAC-gui couldn't have been that high. And that is where most of the R&D went.
Yes. Amiga should've paid more attention to Apple in this respect. I'm concerned that there's a lot of hard-coding going on in the OS4 core, just because they don't have to support other CPU architectures, and this is really putting a strain on the GUI and the other parts of the OS that really make AmigaOS "feel" like an Amiga.
I'm still upset Amiga dumped QNX, especially since the company was so enthusiastic about supporting Amiga and actually delivered.
adolscent: Possible, but with no good titles coming out, who will buy one? The Mario Party 7 bundle shows that Nintendo is trying to clear excess inventory.
They... actually made a Mario Party 7? Geez, and I though Sega was taking Sonic spinoffs to rediculous levels.
Lou: PS2 is expected to price drop to $99, I guess Sony is trying to clear excess inventory too - huh?
Well, they did redesign the console to make it much cheaper to manufacture, so even though Sony pretty much owns the market right now, a price drop makes sense.
Lou: I said that the editors of major web/print magaines said the DETAIL LEVEL IS IMPRESSIVE, it's the animation and AI that is lacking because they can't take advantage of all the cores yet.
Released games are what matter.
You keep droning on that multiple cores in the XBox 360 are holding back developers, but isn't Revolution supposed to have muti-cores, too, and have less power than XBox 360?
How is Revolution supposed to improve on this? Nintendo just waits for programmers figure out how to use next-gen hardware before they release their own next-gen hardware? I suppose being an underpowered latecomer is to be considered a virtue?
Lou: Yes, I agree it will get better.
But it will never be better than Nintendo, of course, because such a contravention would force a rupture in the space/time continuum!
c64 d0c: calling a xbox for a pc is just silly and show that you dont know what you are talking about.
It is silly. XBox has exclusive titles just like any other console, and follows a diffent development philosophy than PC games. It's major fault is that it's expensive, and since Microsoft wasn't too bright when they struck their deal with nVidia, they can't redesign it like Sony did the PS2.
Karima Hun: The XBox does have a lot of PC like games
Microsoft's inexperience in dealing with console companies really shows, here. I expect XBox 360 will resolve this, as Microsoft broadens their scope. Bad software licensing really held back the original XBox.
Sony has this down pat.
Nintendo is doing more of the same, and I don't see Revolution being much of a success. They just haven't recovered from the N64 slump.
-
I can see what you mean and to be honest I am more a japanese gamer myself and I will be getting a PS 3 when it comes out but I think if people can afford an xbox it would be worthwhile investing, there are some really classic games on the machine and now with loads of Japanese support for the xbox 360 there is more reason to own a PS 3 and XBox 360 .... well that is at least what I think. :D
-
If Microsoft have managed to persuade diehard Amiga users, among others, to buy an Xbox and ignore who it's made by, then their job -this generation- is done!
Roll on next-gen!
-
"Me, I buy systems for the software that's available, not because of who made the hardware.
Not me. I would like to buy a Sony to support the direction they are going hardware wise, but...
"Commodity and the quality of software possible on a given platform means nothing to you,"
I think software is one of Nintendo strong points (mostly their software) and why I bought a Gamecube.
When I chose Gamecube I chose it for the then to be released MarioCart DD, Super Monkey ball 2 and Godzilla. In retrospect Godzilla soon came out for xBox and slightly less cool version of Monkey Ball came out on xBox. And the gamecube is less "hackable." All in all though I still love my cube because it DOES have the games I like to play except the driving games. :-( To be fair all the consoles have a lot of interesting games and I think everybody missed out on one or two of their choice title except those hardcores who bought more than one. I am too pressed for time or money to fool with that,