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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Legerdemain on September 12, 2005, 05:55:41 PM
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I'm really bothered by the low quality scandoublers that are to be found everywhere when looking for a scandoubler for the AMiGA.
Why on earth can't I find one single scandoubler which is able to show AGA correctly? I'm rather tired of not being able to use AGA in a somewhat decent way with my monitor, having the green colours look like they can be shown in no more than 16 variations... what on earth is this? Where they simply lazy when they made the scandoublers (I think I've tried three myself and seen some three more being used, and they all looked horrible when showing AGA colours).
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Check out eBay, there is a Videoslot Scandoubler/flickerfixer there right now, as well a DCE flickermagic (clips on to Alice & Lisa) for A1200/A4000 ( =made for AGA)
The external ones often seem to perform poorly with AGA.
-Paul
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@PaSHa:
All DCE scandoubler/flickerfixers only has one 8-bit channel - the red. Both the green and blue channel are only 4-bits (16 variations). So they are better than a 4:4:4 OCS/ECS scandoubler, but not by much.
/Patrik
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Do any scan doublers handle 24-bit color? The best one I've heard of is 16-bit.
I suspect there is a huge market for scandoublers right now. I'd gladly pay $200 for a 24-bit AGA scan doubler/flicker fixer, especially of it handled the super-hi res and super72 modes.
I'd build one myself if I had the skills.
-bubba
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All DCE scandoubler/flickerfixers only has one 8-bit channel - the red. Both the green and blue channel are only 4-bits (16 variations). So they are better than a 4:4:4 OCS/ECS scandoubler, but not by much.
I wonder why they chose red to have the 8-bit channel, it is much more apparent with green that variations are missing. And, I wonder, was this just something done to cut down on the production costs? However, things get even weirder. Sometimes some colours even appear completely out of bound. I'm not that unfamiliar with purple appearing on the most unexpected occasions (and this is the case with both the DCE ones I've tried).
I wonder why I've heard so extremely little complaints about this very issue, that there are so few scandoublers with 8:8:8 to offer (if any). Picasso IV has it, I've heard, but that feels a bit far fetched... to get hold of that GFX-card only for the scandoubler.
I guess I'm a bit out of luck here.
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@Legerdemain:
The ones I know for sure that supports 24-bit are the DblScan 4000 from Petsoff, the PicassoIV from Village Tronic and the ScanDoubler II from CompServ (quite possibly the first ScanDoubler revision too, but I cant confirm it).
/Patrik
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@Patrik
You could add the Video Magician to the list and maybe the DCE/Phase 5 CV64/3D scan doubler.
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@Argus:
The DCE/Phase4 CV64/3D scandoubler is not 24-bit, only 8:4:4 as the rest of the DCE based stuff.
The Video Magician is made for video use and looks like a advanced and quite expensive card so it is most definately 24-bit.
/Patrik
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Get a Jens Schoenfeld scandoubler / flicker fixer.
It's called Indivision and is about 99 Euro or $129
http://www.jschoenfeld.de/news/news56_e.htm
Now finding one will be the issue :)
I think it used to be called "ToastScan".
It's out of production, but they made one or two.
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Arxon internal A4000 scandoubler is also 24bit.
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What about the SD/FF from eyetech? The only title it gives is Digital internal for A1200/A4000...
I just ordered one and the ppl. I talked to had no complaints about it...
J-Golden
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I would settle FOR a scandoubler, of the external kind. I have plenty of older Amigas and an incresaing shortage of monitors than they can be demoed on. My beautiful A-1000 will be pointless if I cannot display it working.
I have lost a 1084S, and my 1942 doesn't smell good. the last Amiga I got had a VGA monitor and an internal scandoubler.
Where ARE all the scandoublers?
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I'm wondering whether there is enough of a market to put the one I did in production. At this point of course the 23 pin connectors are probably an issue to find, but everything else should be relatively easy even if I had to replace a component or two with something not EOL.
-Tig
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Wow, congrats on building one. What are the specs? Can it do 24-bit color and non-15khz modes? I'm sure the design could be refined by an electronics manufacturer for production.
Regarding the connections, you could use a vga connector or bnc's on the scan dobuler for R/G/B/Vsyn/Hsync, and require the amiga to have a 23-to-15 pin adapter. If you used bnc, you would just need a vga adapter + break-out cable.
I'm not a electrical engineer, but these circuits look pretty simple. I took a look at the picture of the circuit board for the DCE scan doubler and could easily google for the chips on board: a 6-bit ADC from Phillips, a 24-bit DAC, ram chips, and one mystery chip.
Let's grass roots this thing!
-bubba
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Not sure if this is what your after but I noticed this ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/scandoubler-ELBOX-FF-external-for-Amiga_W0QQitemZ8218758201QQcategoryZ98928QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I almost fell of my chair when I saw the price!
:-?
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Tigger - you could do an internal one for the a1200, which wouldn't need a 23 pin connector (or an external casing)?
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hektic wrote:
Not sure if this is what your after but I noticed this ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/scandoubler-ELBOX-FF-external-for-Amiga_W0QQitemZ8218758201QQcategoryZ98928QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I almost fell of my chair when I saw the price!
:-?
But this is Martin-Flash... he buys his amiga stuff for almost nothing from poor Polish Amiga users and flogs them in the UK for 10x price
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Does anyone have any specs for this eyetech SD/FF?
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gafstu wrote:
Does anyone have any specs for this eyetech SD/FF?
It cost less than £199 brand new...
I have an early MV1200 (same thing) that needs 10 minutes to warm up before it can produce a stable picture, and then it gets insanely hot.
@all: there is a Compserv AGA Scandoubler-II for sale on german eBay, this thing is pretty good and also deinterlaces Super72 and DblPAL/DblNTSC/Multiscan, and also does PAL/NTSC SuperHiRes properly. This is an internal card for the video-slot.
-Paul
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bubba wrote:
Wow, congrats on building one. What are the specs? Can it do 24-bit color and non-15khz modes? I'm sure the design could be refined by an electronics manufacturer for production.
I work for one of the largest electronics manufacturer (in fact we used to make most of the SMT amigas) so I'm not sure there is alot to refine.
I'm not a electrical engineer, but these circuits look pretty simple. I took a look at the picture of the circuit board for the DCE scan doubler and could easily google for the chips on board: a 6-bit ADC from Phillips, a 24-bit DAC, ram chips, and one mystery chip.
Depending on how they did it, some kind of FPGA to handle non-15kHz screens or a programmed PAL to do much the same thing.
15 pin to 15 pin idea is fairly clever, that would get rid of one of the possible snags, though one of the big part vendors used to stock 23's forever so that might not be an issue.
-Tig
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BenShep wrote:
Tigger - you could do an internal one for the a1200, which wouldn't need a 23 pin connector (or an external casing)?
Yeah I could, the only issue with that is that I have now cut the market to only 1200's an external could work for every amiga on the planet. Lots of my 500's, 2K, 3K & 4ks out there and even CD32's that would probably like to run on a VGA moniter.
-Tig
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@ Tig
*Mystical voice* "If you build it, we will buy.." or failing that, schematics etc would be nice. I do like the 15pin idea... Tho I would prefer one with cables as opposed to PCB soldered. Don't want my A4000 10 feet from the wall because of a huge dongle hanging off the back.
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I've been chasing an external scan doubler for years. Tried many a supplier. Rare as hens teeth those beasties.
Closest I've gotten to finding a retailer is Softhut saying maybe in 2 months they'll do a new run of their design..
I already use a DCE scandoubler/flicker fixer in my A1200. Cost me A$200, and the picture quality ain't that great, but it's better than squinting into a fading 1084s.
What sort of order numbers would you need for a production run. Count me down for an external model, as long as the price is around the A$250/UKP100/US$150 mark.
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saw this on E-bay, but it's UK only shipping :-?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Amiga-Scan-doubler-Flicker-Fixer-Use-pc-monitors_W0QQitemZ8219199453QQcategoryZ98928QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
that aside, isn't the denise clip missing? doesn't that make it completely useless???
J-Golden
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Hey Tigger,
Mark me down as interested too (for my A1200T).
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J-Golden wrote:
.......
that aside, isn't the denise clip missing? doesn't that make it completely useless???
J-Golden
Nah, this version is intended for use in A1200D's, and gets the required signal(s) from the 23-pin RGB-port.
-Paul
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One benefit of the 23-pin connector is the availability of power off the pins. With a VGA connector, you would need an external power source which would add to the total package cost. Anyway, with all the A1200 power issues it might be the better design option.
So, how much would it cost to build a prototype? Any idea on manufacturing costs? Someone should create a poll to see how many people would actually buy one.
Perhaps we could start the American version of Individual Computers with this scan doubler!
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I've been quiet about something because I wanted to try it myself first and see if it really works. But I'm not going to be trying this anytime soon so maybe someone here has already tried, or is willing to.
Many of the "Sceptre" flat panel monitors list specifications that they sync down to 15khz. You may be able to just use a 15-23 pin adapter and see all your screen modes. Anyone want to try? These monitors were sold on NewEgg, and at Sam's Club for a while, but I don't know who carries them now. - Lars
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This company makes a NTSC/PAL scan doubler and flicker fixer single-chip solution, the AL250, that will handle an RBG source:
http://www.averlogic.com.tw/
The input is only 16-bit RGB, so AGA would have the same quality degradation with many of the current scan doublers. Can someone comment on the suitablility of this chip for an Amiga flicker fixer?
-bubba
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16-bit is better than what scandoublers designed for OCS/ECS can do (12-bit), but I doubt it handles all the funny resolutions the Amiga can put out.
I've got a rough design in my head for a hybrid internal/external 24-bit scandoubler. Basically a CPLD, some SRAMS (they don't make 5V DRAMs anymore), a Triple 8-bit DAC, and a Triple 8-bit ADC and few latches and tri-state-able buffers (mostly so I don't need a CPLD with a ridiculous pin count). The ADC and 23-pin D-Sub connector could be easily dropped to make a less expensive internal-only version (the PCB would probably still be the same unless I hand manufacture them).
Might play around with it a bit to see if I can get something working with some spare parts I have here. Don't get your hopes up though.
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Check out this Ebay auction (http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5245748949&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1) which is not a perfect solution but it does the job in Pal Hires very well and at a starting bid of one USD and will certainly not go as high as those other "real" scandoublers :-)
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I have asked this question a few times and never really been satisfied with the answer. I suppose it all depends, but whey couldn't I use my Supergen to pass the Amiga video output to a TV/monitor or a composite monitor? My wife used to watch her games off a VCR using the genlock to send out the signal. She analyzed her shoot-em-ups to improve her game. Another question I have is why can't I use a bridgecard and a svga video card to send a signal to a normal svga monitor? I suppose in the second case it's a question of the bridgecard not being able to pass the Amiga picture through? I don't have a manual for the bridgecard, it came as a 'happy surprise' when I bought a couple of used A2000s on ebay. Lastly, what about someone(or a team) making a list of flat screen monitors, rgb projectors, etc that can scan down to 15hz? It would be a handy addition to this site since a lot of us Amiga hardware junkies are having to deal with old monitors getting harder to find. I have two 1084s in my garage marked, "dead" and "mostly dead" and three mostly useless multisynch monitors that just don't quite reach 15 hz.
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The whole Amiga and monitors thing does cause a few problems. I've given up on getting a scandoubler and have decided to bid on one of those Magic VGA boxes that are designed for playing consoles off a PC monitor. I hope the quality's ok.
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At Ebay there´s a nice Micronik Zorro scandoubler (http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5245010512&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&rd=1) for sale that will end in less than an hour. At the moment it´s at 60 Euro ... don´´t know if this is good enough for you ??? :-?
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One problem with Magic VGA... isn't the composite port on the A1200 only black and white?
Here's one on auction connected to an amiga... screen shots are there:
http://cgi.ebay.com/External-scandoubler-tested-on-Amiga-1200_W0QQitemZ5245748949QQcategoryZ4598QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Those with a PC next to their Amiga might want to consider
using a TV-tuner card as a way to get the Amiga's video onto
the VGA monitor.
I have an RGB->S-video converter and the output goes to an
older TV-tuner card (BT-848 chipset). Not only does it
de-interlace but has the added bonus of letting me stretch
the screen out to about 710x480 which is outside the visible
area on some 15KHz TVs/monitors. The disadvantage is that
PAL screen modes have no color. Also, the full 1280
resolution can't be displayed.