Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: Cyberus on August 18, 2005, 04:01:24 AM
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call me lazy or incompetent, but I find ebaY's website very difficult to navigate, e.g. when you want to make a complaint or something. How would I go about reporting this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MOONSTONE-A-HARD-DAYS-KNIGHT-AMIGA_W0QQitemZ8212519845QQcategoryZ98929QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) for example?
Thanks
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Geeeeeeeeeeezuz! Who cares! :-o
Unless the guy is your uncle, and making some bucks from YOUR hard drive's, hard work! :lol:
Just kiddin' Dude! :-P
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Use the Safety Centre link at the bottom of the page.
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Geee... selling pirated games as-is... that's a classic.
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Click on 'Help' at the top
Click on 'Contact us' on the left hand side
Than you have to answer some questions (is automated)
after that press 'Continue'
click on 'email us'
Now you have to give them the item number(s)
click 'send'
click on 'Submit'
Come on. Lets get him
:pissed: :pissed:
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As long as the auction states or hints to the fact that it is home made, or if he at least offers a refund, I would leave him be, really. You really don't know how badly the Bank of England, the Federal Reserve, and these giant Coporations are playing you, and all of the rest of us.
Ignore there propaganda, they are NOT loosing profits, listen to the experts from the Universities, not some lame rep from within there own company. The system is designed to give the people as little money as possible, and horde all the rest, why do you think we all keep going into recession?!!? It is NO mistake that the people no longer print and control there own money, you are being screwed!!!
Anyhow, if you do have a valid complaint beyond ruining this guy's (most likely) low income desparate life, and do not believe in Free Trade (which has been dead for years), then check Ebay HELP and do a search for what ever it is he did.
Sent you an item that was not described and refused a refund, broken item, non-paying, ignoring E-mail, etc.
Good luck!
Otherwise just do your search in Ebay's HELP, for what ever it is that the guy did to you. Refused refund, etc.
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Oh. My. Dog. You must be kidding.
Here we see another over-reaction from a person who really believes the lie that "piracy killed the Amiga". It was malfeasance and stupid managers who killed the company. Piracy probably helped as much as hurt. A lot of people got Amigas based upon some nifty programs they could get copies of.
Anyway, why would anybody care about this? Is the software on ebay still being developed? No. Still being supported? Still being produced? If it was new software, I could see the concern. But it's not.
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Hi,
Perhaps the seller should have described the item as "Four ****RARE**** 3.5 inch double density disks" instead!
Bargain price of £1 each! :-)
- Ali
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Jesus guys, do you think I'm going to the hassle of reporting him?
I just wanted to know HOW, and quoted an example of an auction, as I have seen a few auctions where I would like to report the person in question as they have overstepped the mark.
Some of you guys should learn to read English more carefully.
'How WOULD I go about....'
Does anyone here see the distinction between that and
'I want to....'
Anyway, in response to Boing specifically, selling other people's work is wrong IMO. If I wrote some software back in the eighties and some smelly little oik was selling copies of it on eBay, I'd be bloody annoyed. If it was freely distributed on the internet, I wouldn't mind.
Do you see the difference?
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I wouldnt care to report anyone.. unless its some new game thats out and being sold as copies.. if its old stuff...and located in the USA... hell, I'd probably bid on it. :lol:
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He says it's on public domain. Is this true?
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TheMagicM wrote:
I wouldnt care to report anyone.. unless its some new game thats out and being sold as copies.. if its old stuff...and located in the USA... hell, I'd probably bid on it. :lol:
Well I wouldn't either - too much bloody hassle!
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Pirate copies are a big problem for all publisher where like release software in future for the amiga.
example we make only one game. no new game are in developing from us. to many pirate copies.
i found every week 1-2 shops where the user can buy DVDs with many pirate copies. for a big money. this shops make money with the work from the developers :((
example: http://www.apc-tcp.de/piratee.html
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AndreasM wrote:
i found every week 1-2 shops where the user can buy DVDs with many pirate copies. for a big money. this shops make money with the work from the developers :((
That is my point. I'm not saying that we should get armed officers swooping down on someone because they gave a copy of Defender of the Crown to their nextdoor neighbour, but I think it is morally objectionable that people should make a living out of someone else's hard work *
* Damn, that's what people have been doing for hundreds of years, its called 'Capitalism' :lol:
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"hurting the few remaining Amiga developers and retailers"
What????. In what manner is harming the amiga developers?. How many comercially games for the classic amiga are being developed lately? and i´m not saying about quakes or pc conversions, i refer to original amiga games. Well the answer is nothing. Those classic floppy games are long time shelf out of the shops and developers don´t care about them, indeed, they leave the amiga long time ago so copying these games isn´t hurting anyone. At the other end i think that if the copy of the games is sold for the cost of storage media, who cares?.
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I think regardless if it’s hurting anyone, selling copied software for profit is illegal unless you have permission of the software author and that’s exactly how the law would see it.
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thecrow: thats exactly how I feel.
AndreasM: your situation is different.. you're still developing software and selling it now so thats different.
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Being honest i doubt they will do anything for pirated amiga software, they only do something if its a big company like microsoft so they dont get sued .Now if that was pirate mp3 cd,s they would ban him straight away, i know i reported someone that sold some after they did not do nothing to the same seller for selling pirate amiga cd,s.
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@TheMagicM
>AndreasM: your situation is different.. you're still developing software and selling it now so thats different.
not really. the users, shop, auctions dont make any difference between old or new software.
exampole a englisch company where makes "Classic Collecstion". 2 DVDs with many illegal copies. included 7 illegal copies from our software. and write on the cover and page that the company are the rightholders from all software on the dvds. sell it to dealer and there sell it on ebay. i close in the last months mor as 300 auctions with thsi dvds worldwide and delete some powersellers from ebay.
i think this company in Swindon sells 1.000+ copies from this dvd set. every set for Euro 20+
now teher have a porblem with many dealers, police and our lawyer :)
or a whdload pirate page. spread 2 games from us 1+ year. now there become a visit from the police and when i have a little time we close the page...
we release only one game in some weeks. all other games have we cancel for amiga and we dont start to develope news games for the amiga. to many illegal copies and (!) to many users where say that is ok to make illegal copies.
@amigamad
everybody can what do again the pirate copies. dont accept pirate users. dont support pirate users!
@boing
yes and no. a hardware need many software. pirate copies is a point that the users buy the hardware. but the last years is the amiga place very small. now the pirate copies make a new problem. many pirate copies = low sell rate = no new software for the amiga. in this point is it correct when a user say "pirate copies damage the amiga".
and users dojt make any different between old non supportet software and new software. example planetemu, amiga nostalgia, amiga4u, spaceballs, amiag dream, rommania, eggmans, total emulation, EAB, goldflesh, killergoria and and and (and some pages dont exits in the future :)))
btw. i know, my english is very bad :)))
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boing wrote:
Oh. My. Dog. You must be kidding.
Here we see another over-reaction from a person who really believes the lie that "piracy killed the Amiga". It was malfeasance and stupid managers who killed the company. Piracy probably helped as much as hurt. A lot of people got Amigas based upon some nifty programs they could get copies of.
Anyway, why would anybody care about this? Is the software on ebay still being developed? No. Still being supported? Still being produced? If it was new software, I could see the concern. But it's not.
Well - it seems that you were wrong on most of these premises, as Andreas has testified...
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AndreasM: This witchhunt you are doing are only damaging your reputation in the amiga scene, dragging people to court over this is very lame ..
Release some new games and we will see, dont come here and say the old: piracy is to much on the amiga..The problem now is that it is not enough users (even to pirate IMO!!) ..
Do you think you can stop pirating, or do you only want more money ??
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AndreasM: This witchhunt you are doing are only damaging your reputation in the amiga scene, dragging people to court over this is very lame ..
Release some new games and we will see, dont come here and say the old: piracy is to much on the amiga..The problem now is that it is not enough users (even to pirate IMO!!) ..
Do you think you can stop pirating, or do you only want more money ??
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I still think, that if I had spent days or months of my time working on something, staying up late, not going out and socialising, basically pouring my blood, sweat and tears into it, I would be mightily peeved if I saw someone else with a DVD burner making the money out of it.
Back in the day, we would call these people 'lamers'
I'm not saying that we should find every pirate and burn them at the stake, or that we should get up tight about a copy of Lemmings being bundled with an Amiga sold on eBaY, but making a reasonable amount of cash out of someone else's work, when they are not is just WRONG. I know everyone has different ethics, but I am very firm on this.
I'm not going to get into a deep conversation about whether piracy killed the Amiga. But I do know one thing, which I think is a great analogy....
After the revolution in Russia, the Bolsheviks requisitioned grain from the kulaks to feed the workers in the cities. So the kulaks, near destitute themselves, tending their fields got no money for their year's work.
The Bolsheviks went back the following year to requisition more grain for the workers in the cities. And guess what? The farmers hadn't bothered growing any. Why blame them, no idiot is going to work for a year so some city-dweller can come along and forcibly take the fruits of their labours from them....
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@Cyberus
I agree with your comment - it is spot on.
As an example, small companies like Cloanto invest a lot of money , time and effort to bring us products like the Amiga Forever and it is pirated wholesale on Ebay.
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>This witchhunt you are doing are only damaging your reputation in the amiga scene, dragging people to court over this is very lame ..
????
>Release some new games and we will see, dont come here and say the old: piracy is to much on the amiga..The problem now is that it is not enough users (even to pirate IMO!!) ..
NO, we dont start to develope new games!
yes, is correct. not enough users. but more as enough pirate pages. and enough users where buy illegal CDs and DVDs :(
>Do you think you can stop pirating, or do you only want more money ??
only want more money? hmm, do you like develope a game for us... for free?
sure we cant not stop the pirates. but we can make her life stronger. special pirates who make money with the illegal copies.
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"hurting the few remaining Amiga developers and retailers"
What????. In what manner is harming the amiga developers?. How many comercially games for the classic amiga are being developed lately? and i´m not saying about quakes or pc conversions, i refer to original amiga games. Well the answer is nothing. Those classic floppy games are long time shelf out of the shops and developers don´t care about them, indeed, they leave the amiga long time ago so copying these games isn´t hurting anyone. At the other end i think that if the copy of the games is sold for the cost of storage media, who cares?.
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In addition to this quote from someone on page1, which I generally agree with, lemme add a few things for you all to chew on...
1. I am against software pirating, be that known first and foremost.
2. I am also a semi-avid collector/enjoyer of my Amiga's, them currently being an A500 (with a bunch of addons) and an A2000 (also with a bunch of addons).
For my 'era' of the Amiga, there were no CD-ROMS. All games were distributed via 3.5 floppy. My Amiga 500 and parts have been sitting until just this past few months, where I bought my A2k at a yard sale, and unearthed (dug out of the closets) all my A500 stuff. This brings me to the next point.
3. The "AVERAGE" lifespan of a floppy disc is 10 years.
And I was quite pleased to see that 99% of my discs still work fine. There were some, luckily nothing important right now, that in fact were bad. Magnetic media, as used on a floppy again, has a 10 year lifespan. The FIRST thing I've been working on doing is copying/cloning EVERY SINGLE DISC I OWN to ensure that they will continue 'living' on. I paid for them, and I'll be damn certain that they continue working.
That gets us to the gray area.. Selling them.. How would I, an average guy here, treat that auction? Well, first off, I'm in luck because it's not a title I am looking for :) However, if it were I'd look a a couple things. First, his history.. Has he sold this game on ebay before? Does he, in fact think he's a software publisher, copying and selling other people's works? Has he done it in the past with other titles, and what were the conditions there?
I know this statement might not be popular. HOWEVER. Sometimes you are going to have to factor in real-life factors into the equation. It's not like you can go out and buy the game in a legit way. The pub. co. is gone, the software maker co. is gone. Just because the "NAME" "AMIGA" is still in existance, means nothing. It is not the same co. as it was, nor do they cater to "our day". And, unless Amiga/Commodore Published the game, even they do not control the software made/sold/created for it. So, weigh your factors. How close till Ami software of that generation is public domain? Is there anyone publishing the game so you can buy it? How long has it been since the game was made/will the original media still work?
Practically every auction has a clause in it "worked last time I used it" or something similar, relating to the whole media age thing.. Why do you think that is. In the blink of an eye your floppy which is possibly 20 years old could fail.
If you (you, the general public reading this, not any one person in particular) are so set in your ways, and cannot possibly consider accepting someone selling copied media, remember how you feel on the day that you need your Workbench 2.x disks, only to find one o fthem bad. Contact Commodore/Amiga for your replacement disk. And let me know if you get one from them, because God knows I, or many other people will need them here in time to come.
The other "right" thing to do would be this. Take it apon yourself to create a foundation which will/can legally buy the rights to all Amiga (Commodore era) games/programs. Your foundation could then reproduce ALL sofrtware, legally. And your foundation could then track down the programmers for all that software and give them their.. ..whatever it's called for actors and programmers after their product is out and checks continue to come in.. Word escapes me but you know what I mean.. That would be the ultimate thing to do. Would certainly keep the Amiga era ALIVE and legal. Yet, to my knowledge, no one has, or is doing that. Someone needs to get hot on what could be a great idea.
Rooster
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krize wrote:
AndreasM: This witchhunt you are doing are only damaging your reputation in the amiga scene, dragging people to court over this is very lame ..
How the hell is it damaging his reputation?
You expect him to just roll over and let other people rip off his work for their own profit?
Sorry but the only lame thing is stupid attitudes like yours. There's precious few developers left in the Amiga scene, we don't needs pirates or morons driving the rest of them away.
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@Andreas
You are one of the people who my post does not quite fit. Althoguh your site is German (I'm a silly American who knows little of other languages) I do belive when you said you make one product for the Amiga, you mean the newer ones.
Even if that is not the case, and you do make product for the "classic Amigas" as some call them, keep in mind your company DOES in fact exist, and we CAN buy it from you. As I mentioned, I refer to strictly companies who have dissolved/disappeared/left the scene way back when the Amiga "faded away". Just clarifying that so that you understand. I in no way condone priacy. What I do condone is the continuation of product. I do not believe that someone's work should simply disappear from the face of the Earth just because the media cannot sustain it life. I'm not saying it's right to take 1 copy (the original) and make 5000 copies and sell em. But I am saying if you hold 1 legal copy, be it from ebay or the original company 20 years ago, no matter whether it's on original media or not, you retain the right to that software.. Which would include moving it to newer media to allow it to continue to work. Until you sell it, of course, which then you would surrender your rights to the software. If that makes any sense at all..
All that aside, legal questions for anyone out there who knows. This topic got me curious. How many years in fact must pass for software to become public domain, assuming the company did not set it so when they shutdown/closed? And is there a list of such titles/companies anywhere?
Rooster
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You know. Generally I have very little to say on the forums. I have been registered for about 3/4 years but I have to say.
People. get a life.
What can you get off e-bay that you can't get through e-mule, Warez or Back to the Roots.
P-lease.
Sometimes. Just sometimes. Ignorance is bliss.
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>You are one of the people who my post does not quite fit. Althoguh your site is German (I'm a silly American who knows little of other languages) I do belive when you said you make one product for the Amiga, you mean the newer ones.
hmm, when you dont click on the button "english".. yes, than is the page only in german :)
>Even if that is not the case, and you do make product for the "classic Amigas" as some call them, keep in mind your company DOES in fact exist, and we CAN buy it from you. As
yes, we make something for classic and os4. is all on our page. only the tolls and game in develope are not on the page.
> I mentioned, I refer to strictly companies who have dissolved/disappeared/left the scene way back when the Amiga "faded away". Just clarifying that so that you understand. I in no way condone priacy. What I do condone is the continuation of product. I do not believe that someone's work should simply disappear from the face of the Earth just because the media cannot sustain it life. I'm not saying it's right to take 1 copy (the original) and make 5000 copies and sell em. But I am saying if you hold 1 legal copy, be it from ebay or the original company 20 years ago, no matter whether it's on original media or not, you retain the right to that software.. Which would include moving it to newer media to allow it to continue to work. Until you sell it, of course, which then you would surrender your rights to the software. If that makes any sense at all..
i never talk from software which the user can nowhere buy legal. i talk from the software where the user can buy on the legal way. but its give users/shops/auction where illegal copies from this software, too. thats the problem.
>All that aside, legal questions for anyone out there who knows. This topic got me curious. How many years in fact must pass for software to become public domain, assuming the company did not set it so when they shutdown/closed?
in germany 75 year after the dead from the copyrightholder.
and i have talk from our software. we are not closed. me make support for our fisrt product from 1992, too.
> And is there a list of such titles/companies anywhere?
a list from which software? old commerzial software what now are free? is a small list. i think 1% are free. not more.
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>You are one of the people who my post does not quite fit. Althoguh your site is German (I'm a silly American who knows little of other languages) I do belive when you said you make one product for the Amiga, you mean the newer ones.
>hmm, when you dont click on the button "english".. yes, than is the page only in german :)
Ok, do this, and put on your English cap. Click Englsih. Now, click the first icon/picture you see, entitled "Ausgabe 55".(not English) Yes, there is some English in the top text, but many of the buttons are what I assume is German. (a side-side totally OT: I love Settlers of Catan, a German-made (a company called Cosmos) makes it. There is an American conversion, but it is not as good. Anyway.. I do appologize for the snap comment on no English. I just didn't research it enough ;(
I did look over your site more now.. I hit the first link originally just to see what it was you did real quick that you were sharing links to. In fact, you seem to be the type of place to do exactly what I mentioned. You are a publisher, yes? Not specially a software house, programming games. Why is it that no pub., like yourself, by chance, swoops in and gets the rights to all these "dead" games/programs? I'd assume a decent amount of money could be made off it. They could be released, on a need be basis by order and demand on floppy. Has your company ever considered that, I mean, obviously they have, you ARE a publisher.. But what about something on a grander scale? There are plenty of "classic Amiga" fans who'd line up at your eDoor!
Rooster
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>>hmm, when you dont click on the button "english".. yes, than is the page only in german :)
>Ok, do this, and put on your English cap. Click Englsih. Now, click the first icon/picture you see, entitled "Ausgabe 55".(not English) Yes, there is some English in the top text, but many of the buttons are what I assume is German. (a side-side totally OT: I love Settlers of Catan, a German-made (a company called Cosmos) makes it. There is an American conversion, but it is not as good. Anyway.. I do appologize for the snap comment on no English. I just didn't research it enough ;(
argh, you are on the page from our german print mag :)
Amiga Future is a print mag not a company :)
www.apc-tcp.de is our company
>I did look over your site more now.. I hit the first link originally just to see what it was you did real quick that you were sharing links to. In fact, you seem to be the type of place to do exactly what I mentioned. You are a publisher, yes? Not specially a software house, programming games. Why is it that no pub., like yourself, by chance, swoops in and gets the rights to all these "dead" games/programs? I'd assume a decent amount of money could be made off it. They could be released, on a need be basis by order and demand on floppy. Has your company ever considered that, I mean, obviously they have, you ARE a publisher.. But what about something on a grander scale? There are plenty of "classic Amiga" fans who'd line up at your eDoor!
go on the correct page, than we can talk :))
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AndreasM: i'm not saying what you're donig is bad for YOUR software that YOU are selling. But if its old software that isnt being sold currently because of its age I dont care if its copied or not. What people do on their own time is their business.
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hmm, from wher you know how many copies from our softare we sell?
yes, what the people do is their own time and risk.
when we found someone where sell illegal copies (every way, donates an on the page is the same as selling) cost this the user many money. the price for the police and lawyer are not cheap :) but some user dont check this. dont know why.
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@ Magic-Merl
"...What can you get off e-bay that you can't get through e-mule, Warez or Back to the Roots..."
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Money, my friend. That is the crux of the matter. An individual is seeking to profit from the work of another. That is what leaves the bitter taste in the mouth, not any attempt to attach value to obsolete software. To this end, I regard an Ebay sale of copied software with significant disgust, whereas people who copy obsolete software for no financial gain have not received money that should otherwise have gone to the author.
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hmm, from wher you know how many copies from our softare we sell?
Did I say I knew how many copies? No offense but the software you have is of no use to me.
I have not bought any classic Amiga software in *years* (but I've been *given* alot of software, originals and copies). Hardware, thats a different story.. On the Amiga I'd rather just play old games and collect old hardware (but I prefer C=64,128,vic 20 though).
Now if Genesi and MorphOS would get their A$$ in gear maybe then I'd buy something. I'm tellin ya.. that Peg running Debian is sexy. :-o :-o :-o
-Alex
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X-ray wrote:
@ Magic-Merl
"...What can you get off e-bay that you can't get through e-mule, Warez or Back to the Roots..."
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Money, my friend. That is the crux of the matter. An individual is seeking to profit from the work of another. That is what leaves the bitter taste in the mouth, not any attempt to attach value to obsolete software. To this end, I regard an Ebay sale of copied software with significant disgust, whereas people who copy obsolete software for no financial gain have not received money that should otherwise have gone to the author.
You've hit the nail on the head, I've been trying to say exactly the same thing!!!
I really couldn't give a {bleep} about someone copying old software, and may I say it, ashamed though I am, I don't really care about people ripping off commercial software too much either e.g. Windows (unless they are really damaging some small production, as the German guy who posted on this thread suggests). Its just that if anyone should make MONEY from it, it should be the people who produced it. Call me a bleeding heart liberal, a commie or whatever, but its the same principle with coffee or whatever, sold at huge markups in the developed world, the people who did the work should be seeing the economic benefits, not some lamer who sits on his arse....
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@krize: you didn't get the point. Andreas *is* a developer or at least a publisher who tries to sell many recent games. But his company has suffered so much from piracy that he has cancelled all ongoing developments. They cannot sell enough copies because of piracy, so they rather put their effords into projects they can earn some money with.
There have been quite a few developers leaving the Amiga because of piracy in the last one or two years.
We all agree that spreading software for free might increase hardware sales. But there is no new Amiga hardware. Only software companies are left. Software companies have to earn money. If their software is spread for free, they stop developing new software -> the market is dead.
Commodore killed the Amiga but piracy killed the remaining Amiga market.
Bye,
Thomas
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people stopped buying software because there is only so much you can do with the current 'classic Amiga'. Its obsolete. Replacement parts will be harder to aquire at decent prices. The only people hanging on to their classics are the true die-hards.
Whats here and now is the A1 and the Pegasos. If software developers want to make money they should develop software for those systems, not a has-been 20yr old system* (or however old your classic is). (as rough as that sounds, its the truth).