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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Jose on August 07, 2005, 09:12:01 PM
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Hi. Sorry PC related ...Not that familiar with PC hardware, but know the basics.
I happend to have got hold of a SlotA Athlon Thunderbird at 1Gz. Yeah 8-) :lol:
Got it as a cheap upgrade to be able to Play DVDs at full speed, wich the old 600mhz Athlon couldn't (amazing). Maybe it was just the Gfx card, an old Riva128Zx. :-D
I haven't tried the 1Ghz TB yet. Yeah, I could've got a new mobo but that would mean new processor and memory too.
This is a rare processor as AMD only realeased the Thunderbird slot A versions to OEMs. The 1Ghz version is even more rare.
The motherboard is a good old Asus K7M with irongate chipset.
I'm planning to overclock it and see what it gets, after all this motherboard was famous for overclocking stability at it's time, and the Thunderbirds with it's faster L2 cache (at bus speed) and copper interconnects or something, is much more easier to overclock from tests I've read on the net.
So, what ram brand etc. would you recommend considering the bus is 200Mhz and the motherboard accepts pc100 modules (though I have a 133 128mb one in there and it works fine at 100mhz but the other one is a pc100 64mb). With the Athlon600 (older non TB version) I could raise the bus only to about 105mhz stable!!!
Do you think it's worth it ? :-D Anyone had any experience with a similar system, I know there's some AMD users out here too..
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The motherboard is a good old Asus K7M with irongate chipset.
I'm planning to overclock it and see what it gets, after all this motherboard was famous for overclocking stability at it's time, and the Thunderbirds with it's faster L2 cache (at bus speed) and copper interconnects or something, is much more easier to overclock from tests I've read on the net.
My advice is to avoid overclocking it unless you have a very good cooling solution. Thunderbirds were pretty hot at the time and I've seen a number of them burned in the past few years.
So, what ram brand etc. would you recommend considering the bus is 200Mhz and the motherboard accepts pc100 modules (though I have a 133 128mb one in there and it works fine at 100mhz but the other one is a pc100 64mb). With the Athlon600 (older non TB version) I could raise the bus only to about 105mhz stable!!!
It's getting hard to get PC133 these days, most of the RAM brands have dropped it. Kingston should still offer it though and their products are of excellent quality so I'd recomend picking a stick from them, especially if you are going to try some OC.
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Dunno what freq the Irongate is capable of - RAM should pose no trouble if you take PC133 and play with timing parameters a bit (CL etc).
Beware that o'cing the board will o'c the PCI and AGP as well - not all cards handle that well, and the Riva's probably not one of them.
The TBird most probably could handle 1300-1400 MHz with proper cooling - but does it run on the K7M? The reason AMD did not release the Slot TBird was lacking compatibility with existing boards...
O'cing the CPU w/o running the board beyond specs means changing the multiplier, so look for a goldfinger device or try to do it yourself (should be somewhere in the web).
But - is it really worth it? Much higher clocked Semprons are available cheaply and you can get cheap mbs, too.
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@Crystall
Hmm, but I want to overclock it 8-) As for the Ram, well there's still eBay, I'm sure I could find a few bargains there (or hope...)
@Zac67
The mobo I have can go up to 150mhz FSB, wich steps of 1mhz from 100 to 125 (or 133 can't remember).
"Beware that o'cing the board will o'c the PCI and AGP as well - not all cards handle that well, and the Riva's probably not one of them."
Yeah, maybe that was the problem with my Athlon600..
"The TBird most probably could handle 1300-1400 MHz with proper cooling - but does it run on the K7M? The reason AMD did not release the Slot TBird was lacking compatibility with existing boards..."
I didn't buy it without doind some research and I knew about that, my motherboard is fully compatible. There were faster chipsets lauched after the Irongate (Apollo etc..) that were not compatible..
"O'cing the CPU w/o running the board beyond specs means changing the multiplier, so look for a goldfinger device or try to do it yourself (should be somewhere in the web)"
The Thunderbird was locked.. dunno if there's anything will have to check it out, but I prefer to overclock the bus too.
"But - is it really worth it? Much higher clocked Semprons are available cheaply and you can get cheap mbs, too."
You're probably right, and that was my dillema before buying it. Even having to get another mobo would probably be worth it and not make much difference. But if it can play DVD's all the way, I'll be satisfied as the Athlon 600 already did most things I want (PC gaming is not worth it IMO, just get a console and play on the living rooms big TV).
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Got it as a cheap upgrade to be able to Play DVDs at full speed, wich the old 600mhz Athlon couldn't (amazing). Maybe it was just the Gfx card, an old Riva128Zx.
I have a silly question.. Did you activate the DMA for the dvdrom?? The dma for cdroms/dvdroms in windows are usually running without dma as default, and this would cause the dvd playback to be choppy.. I have had no problems playing back dvds even on a old pIII 450mhz.. A 600mhz athlon should definitely be up to the task.
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@Tomas
Already checked that! It still missed frames. I'm using PowerDVD BTW. I was assuming the Gfx card has the bandwith to do it and the blame's on the processor. If it'snot I'll have done something really stupid :-o
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Hi. I just checked the Bios and the stupid asshole where I bought the DVDRom installed it as Primary Slave. I was out of time and asked if they could install it for free if I bought it there. Thanks! The secondary channel is not being used at all. Will that disable DMA ? I'm not using the HD while the DVD is playing...
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Guess the mobo's making UDMA33 at best, the DVD's probably limited to MWDMA16, but that'd be fine unless you're using both at full load at the same time. I'd use the sec IDE for DVD though.
I can't think of why an Athlon600 should'nt play DVD flawlessly. Years ago I had a K6-III/400 on an old Socket7 mobo (T2P4) w/ a Voodoo Banshee and it was working AOK - maybe half the speed of your 600. I guess you're missing something... What OS is that on?
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The Slot A Tbird runs perfectly well on the AMD 750 Iron Gate chipset. It's the VIA KX133 chipset that didn't like it. I have a 900MHz Slot A Tbird and it run like a dream.
BTW With PowerDVD my K6-2 400MHz could just about play DVDs smoothly, an Athlon 600 should have no problem.
srg
BTW The Iron Gate chipset was also used on some Alpha 21264 boards AFAIK.
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DVD drives are best set as the master on the secondary bus. Having the DVD device set as a slave MAY cause jerky or uneven playback...
Good luck with the oc!
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Hi. Thx for all replies. I changed the DVD drive to master on the secondary bus but had the same result. I also made a benchmark with a DVD (Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio :-D ) and Sisoft Sandra said my drive was up to 6MB/s.
The OS is W2KPro. I have the latest drivers from AMD for the AGP port and Via ones for the south bridge. BTW isn't this the same southbridge as the A1's ? :-)
I want to solve this before overclocking the Thunderbird.
Any clues of what else could be? The Gfx card ?
BTW, I'm thinking about getting a good Vortex cooler, cause I want the overclock to be silent but also take it to extrems. If I burn it I'll probable make a video of me smashing it :-P
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Have you tried reading a DVD-ROM? Should be a lot faster than 6 MB/s, otherwise the drive is the problem...
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It still sounds like a possible DMA issue. I assume you have
already enabled it in the windows device manager or whatever
2000 calls it. In XP, the properties tab also tells me what
mode it is currently running. Maybe the w2k IDE channel
properties tab will report the status as well. Try the
following link to enable DMA if PIO is stuck on.
http://www.michna.com/kb/WxDMA.htm
I had to do the registry fix under the following heading:
"Re-enable DMA using the Registry Editor"
As far as overclocking, the northbridge will probably be
more of a factor than the memory. Everything on the irongate
runs in sync. The goldfinger device to change the CPU
mulitplier that some others mention will probably be the
best bet in order to allow the rest of the system to run at
spec. Even though you won't reach near PC133 speeds, just
stick with good quality PC133 ram so that it will run faster
than 100Mhz if you do choose to push the fsb. It will possibly
run tighter timings at 100Mhz than regular PC100. I ran
crucial in my slot A system, but I sure some of the other
top brands will work just as well.
One more note about memory, I have never had any luck running
1-sided memory in my K7M. Only recognizes half the capacity.
Stick with double-sided if at all possible.
C Snyder
BTW, are you using the w2k ide driver or VIA's? Stick with
the generic w2k drivers, but if you are running the VIA
set, check their site for the DMAtool, it might be required
to enable DMA if nothing else does.
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@Zac67
Yeah, but 6MB/s should be more than enouph anyway, MPEG2 is around 3.5MBits/s IIRC, unless the machine is unstable.
@ billchase
Hi.
"It still sounds like a possible DMA issue. I assume you have already enabled it in the windows device manager or whatever 2000 calls it. In XP, the properties tab also tells me what mode it is currently running. Maybe the w2k IDE channel properties tab will report the status as well. Try the following link to enable DMA if PIO is stuck on.
http://www.michna.com/kb/WxDMA.htm"
Properties tab reports Ultra DMA as the current mode.
"...
One more note about memory, I have never had any luck running 1-sided memory in my K7M. Only recognizes half the capacity. Stick with double-sided if at all possible."
I'll take that into account.
"BTW, are you using the w2k ide driver or VIA's? Stick with
the generic w2k drivers, but if you are running the VIA
set, check their site for the DMAtool, it might be required
to enable DMA if nothing else does."
VIA's, but W2K reports Ultra DMA as the current mode so it's working. I've also found some references on the net advicing to remove DMA tool before installing VIA drivers so I assume the drivers substitute it.
Still the same... :-)
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"VIA's, but W2K reports Ultra DMA as the current mode so it's working. I've also found some references on the net advicing to remove DMA tool before installing VIA drivers so I assume the drivers substitute it."
I actually I had heard that DMAtool was sometimes required to activate DMA
with the VIA drivers installed. Maybe newer versions of the drivers eliminate
the need for DMAtool. Probably wouldn't hurt to try it anyway.
Are you running with the ACPI HAL installed? I have also not had any
luck with ACPI on older hardware including irongate boards. If you are going
to do another install of Windows anyway, try just using the Standand PC HAL
if you are not already.
Good luck with it, outside of what has been suggested, I am not sure what else
it could be.
C Snyder
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Hi. Got bored and installed the 1Ghz Athlon. CLearly makes a difference but still not smooth!! Lowered the resolution to 800x600. Got a bit better but still not completely smooth.
Do you think getting a better video card would make a difference ? My current one is old and has only 8MB, but PowerDVD docs say 8MB is enouph. Also the card supports overlay and works in AGP 2x mode.
What the heck is going on :-?
ACPI is working, but (weird) when I overclock the FSB to 110 (+10%) a blue screen with white font appears complaining the BIOS is not ACPI compatible.
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ACPI will "work" on Slot A boards, but the reliabilty and
stability is questionable. When I was running W98, having
ACPI enabled (I forgot to use setup /p i during the install)
caused a big performance hit and stability issues. W2k's
implementation might be better, but I still wouldn't trust
it. Your video card might be the bottleneck as well, but
regardless, I highly recommend ditching ACPI due to the age
of the machine.
Do you have NERO by any chance? The Nero Infotool will help
confirm that DMA is indeed working. I have heard of windows
incorrectly reporting DMA status on VIA equipped boards.
I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse on this DMA issue, but
my gut instinct tells me its still a possible factor.
C Snyder
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I got Nero and run the Infotool. DMA is active, at least it says so. I also run SiSofSandra and compared my system to a few on the list... My system is practically equivalent to a P4 at 1.6Ghz! I bet it will beat the crap out of it when I overclock it.
Anyway, I'm gonna take it to a friends PC store and ask to try it out with a different Gfx card, WITHOUT hardware decoding of course...
:pint:
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Well that certainly helps close the door on the DMA issue.
My last random suggestion would be to try using an 80wire
ide cable instead of the old 40wire if you are not already
doing so. Have you also been able to test with another DVD
drive? If the GFX upgrade doesn't work, this is the only
other hardware factor I can think of.
C Snyder
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Jose wrote:
Yeah, but 6MB/s should be more than enouph anyway, MPEG2 is around 3.5MBits/s IIRC, unless the machine is unstable.
Don't have the specs at hand right now, but afaik a DVD peaks at about 8.5 Mbps and may use a sustained rate of at least 6 Mbps. Since you've got Nero, use CD-DVD Speed to check the transfer rate of a data or video DVD - it should never drop below 1x. If the graph isn't smooth, there's something wrong with the DVD or the drive.
If it's OK the bottle neck is somewhere else: some process eating up CPU power, graphics driver problems, AGP trouble, DirectX, ...
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After checking in device manager and also NeroInfoTool that DMA was on, I wasn't even gonna run CD-DVDSpeed but I decided to give it a go...
Speed: Cpu Usage:
1x 12%
2x 22%
4x 98%:-o
8x 100% :-o :-o
Still, DVD playback is 1x and running other tests it never dropped below that. The graph for speed wasn't regular but the peaks it had seem to be related to the kind of drive.
100% @ 8x is weird isn't it ? Now I have to determine if this the systems fault or not. Suggestions...(I checking for similar problems with this drive model now...)
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The drive is a Samsung DVD-Rom SD-616E BTW...
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I'm too lazy to think about this IDE problem, but...
-The Slot A boards used a slightly different electrical arrangement than the Socket A ones. I forget the details, but it suggests that pushing the FSB is a little trickier (if you're used to Socket A boards, where it was a piece of cake).
-I can confirm that the K7M has some delightful ACPI quirks, some of which may be worse in the final beta BIOS release for it. In fiddling with power management under DragonFly, I managed to get it into a nice 'fire hazard' state - the system woke, but not the CPU fan(s).
-Do you have a manual handy? This is a pretty 'classic' board, and there's a PCI slot interrupt-sharing map to be aware of.
Edit: Oh yeah, this thing can't handle '32x4' or whatever the common "high density" SDRAM is. So if you want to use SDRAM sticks >128MB, you basically suffer the same limitations of the old 440BX. If you spend through the nose for name-brand motherboard-matched RAM (e.g. Kingston), you'll be okay, of course. (And I now notice someone else already said that, but the issue is more annoying and befuddling than 'sidedness.')
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Jose wrote:
Speed: Cpu Usage:
4x 98%:-o
8x 100% :-o :-o
Seems like a DMA problem after all - try disabling UDMA in BIOS/DMATool, so hopefully Multiword DMA is used which might even work (and is fast enough for DVD).
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@Floid
Oddly enouph, I'm using the latest beta BIOS and ACPI seems to work fine, but I'm using Win2K wich seems to have a way better implementation than Win98.
I remember when I was running Win98 the system wouldn't even be able to shut down ALOT of times :lol: That disappeared when I got Win2K.
@Zac67
Yes, but at 1x the CPU load, though too high for normal DMA, shouldn't overload the CPU enouph to prevent MPEG2 decoding at a decent speed.
So, I noticed PowerDVD has some other tests and I decided to run the System Diagnostic and then do a diagnostic to test my Gfx card (which was being reported as having overlay and everything).
Didn't pass ANY of the YUV tests or any...! So it's the Gfx card too...
Looking on eBay for a Radeon 9700 right now, the fastest AGP2x compatible one. Before anyone says anything, the card will still be useable if I upgrade in the future so I don't mind if it's a bit overkill for my current system. And its going cheap on eBay. I think I'll get the Gigabyte one that has way better colling.
Still, I'd like to resolve the DMA issue if possible ...
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Jose wrote:
Looking on eBay for a Radeon 9700, the fastest AGP2x compatible one. Before anyone says anything, I guess the card will still be useable if I upgrade my system in the future so I don't mind if it's a bit overkill for my current system. And its going cheap on eBay.
Any AGP card is obsolete now, So don't pay over the odds.
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@bloodline
Still plenty AGP boards out there selling for 64 bit systems :-)
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FWIW I play full screen DVD's with no frame skipping on a P3 650 and a geforce 32 meg 2xAGP using Win98SE. The dvd is master on secondary cable. Like everyone else has been saying you should have ample CPU power
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Can someone recommend a test program that will test CPU load under DMA transfers to HD ? From SisSoftSandra (trial version here) results my HD manages 33MB/s, not bad since it's an ATA66 controler.
I'm assuming that if HD transfers don't have high CPU load then the fault for high cpu load in DVD accesses would be in the DVD itself or it's drivers..
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Hi. Be amazed!
Just runned Quick Bench...
Sequential Speed: Read- 39.2 MB/s
Write- 33.8 MB/s
...
...
Average CPU- 2% !!!!!!!
The average CPu was a bit higher when I first launched the program (>10%), lowering right after if I kept idle, but I think that was due to other task having just been terminated. If I kept idle and stoped the test in the middle and restarted again the CPU load would be 2% in the very beginning.
Now what it could be? The DVDROm drive, it's drivers, or the cable...?
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BTW, [stupid joke]... seems like I won't need an April fix on this system after all :roll:
I'll check the cable next...
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Just a thought before I go out and get an 80 wire cable, even if this cable is not appropriate or it's f**ked up, that wouldn't make CPU load go higher or would it ?
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The reason I suggested to try the 80 wire cable is that some
machines that I have worked on will not enable UltraATA modes
with just a 40 wire cable, though I haven't tested this with
the K7M. The BIOS on these machines will spit out an error
code disabling UltraATA transfers. It certainly won't hurt
anything to try it since they can be found pretty cheap at
most local computer shops. Since many DVD and CD drives now
support ATA33 and ATA66, it is a good idea to just retire the
40 wire variety altogether. Any luck with swapping GFX cards?
C Snyder
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For UDMA33 you don't need 80pin cables, UDMA66 and up requires them - but it doesn't hurt. I've had cables doing PIO4 and MWDMA2 (16 MB/s) reliably but no UDMA33.
Looking at the price of 80pin cables, I replace 40pins whenever I put my hand on them.
Lacking YUV overlays explains the problems you're having as DIB DRAW incl. conversion is a pain in the a** for the CPU.
The Riva128 should be able to do YUV overlays, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'll check it in a couple of days as we're just revamping an old RC440BX system, it's got a Riva onboard. ;-)
What drivers are you using? DirectX in good shape?
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Jose wrote:
@Floid
Oddly enouph, I'm using the latest beta BIOS and ACPI seems to work fine, but I'm using Win2K wich seems to have a way better implementation than Win98.
I remember when I was running Win98 the system wouldn't even be able to shut down ALOT of times :lol: That disappeared when I got Win2K.
Windows will tolerate certain 'out of spec' conditions. The BIOS authors test with Windows.
By all means switch to 80-wire cables -- it's an ATA66 controller, and many drives will not gracefully fallback when they're attached to such. (Try Knoppix or something similar, and watch for bus retries that might be bogging things down?)
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Ok, I'll get a new cable tomorrow and try it out.
Haven't tried a new Gfx card yet, got outbid for a Radeon 9700 right in the end.
"Lacking YUV overlays explains the problems you're having as DIB DRAW incl. conversion is a pain in the a** for the CPU.
The Riva128 should be able to do YUV overlays, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe I'll check it in a couple of days as we're just revamping an old RC440BX system, it's got a Riva onboard.
What drivers are you using? DirectX in good shape?"
It's supposed to, but didn't pass the PowerDVD tests. I tried getting the more recent drivers I could get from nVidia's site but they seemed to be the same ones on Win2K CD. DirectX 9.x here!
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I'd put my money on the drivers not enabling overlay properly under windows 2000... find a cheap radeon card... or if can borrow one to try ... but even the 600 should be able to play dvd's no problem with proper overlay support.