Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Cyberus on July 29, 2005, 11:48:48 PM
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Not only copyrighted software (the sticking point being the fact that the guy's SELLING it), but he even half-inched the A.Org logo!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98929&item=8208728157&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98929&item=8208728157&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
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I noticed this the other day :( Some guys on the English Amiga Board a while ago were talking about the piracy on eBay. They reported it to eBay and I think it was removed from the listings.
I guess it’s up to the webmaster to ask eBay to remove the Amiga.org banner if he wants to, I certainly would. I think there’s more than one guy using the banner on eBay btw.
Edit:Another Logo Thief! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11047&item=8208267259&rd=1)
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unbelievable :shocked:
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It's only a valid issue if Amiga.org has specific permission to use the logos in the first place. I'm not saying they do or don't but that's the first point that comes to mind. If AO doesn't have any specific permission then they have no rights of any type regarding ownership and are as much at fault as the eBay "pirates".
I'm probably alone in this, and that's fine, but I always laugh a little when someone makes their work readily available in a public place and then jumps up and down screaming bloody murder when it's copied. I've had several works of my own used by others, and in one specific case, by a competitor in direct competition with my own services. What can I do? Cry? Yell? Curse almighty God in heaven? I could, but that's about all the vindication I could scrape off. Otherwise, it's best just to accept it and move along. If you don't want your stuff copied, don't use a medium that you know full well is designed in part for that very purpose.
Get my drift, Spiff :-)?
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Yeah, it's a little annoying, but I really doubt Amiga.org would have the grounds to complain about it.
The piracy itself is a genuine concern. Not just from a moral/economical standpoint but also from mental health standpoint. Five DVDs, presumably home burns? Even with the cheapest media I doubt anyone's on the path to great riches selling this stuff.
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these 5 dvd`s were on ebay about a month or two ago.
the MF had nightlong,myst,quake ect. all the best games and more on it.I HOPE HE GET`s BUSTED !
:pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
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@Roj
IANAL (and this isn't /. ;-)), but...
While the multicolored checkmark is obviously an Amiga logo, the letter A, checkered ball, and tilted red square -individually - are probably not copyrightable (but definitely trademarks). However, the specific combination of the four is unique to this site, and are probably protected as an unregistered copyright.
I've had several works of my own used by others, and in one specific case, by a competitor in direct competition with my own services. What can I do? Cry? Yell? Curse almighty God in heaven? I could, but that's about all the vindication I could scrape off. Otherwise, it's best just to accept it and move along.
What you could do is talk to a good copyright lawyer. As you are in the US, you should be aware that the US no longer requires an original work to be registered in order to be protected under copyright laws. All it requires is for it to be published. Again, no legal training here, but I would think putting something on a website would qualify as published.
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This pirate has been reported, as it is a violation of International Trademark and copyright laws.
For the record, the Amiga.org logo is copyright 1995 to present by me, see the Wayback machine for example of first use dated 4/27/1995. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED! We also have consent from Gateway Inc, dated 9/21/98 and Amiga Inc, the current holders of the trademarks for the boing ball to use it, dated 1/19/2000.
Our use for the trademarked boing ball is limited to the Amiga.org Website only. The Amiga.org logo MAY NOT, in ANY CONDITION be used without express prior written consent.
What worries me is that the logo being displayed is ripped directly off of a proof file (300dpi original) that I have only shared with 3 people in the entire history of this site. How it got in the hands of this pirate is beyond me.
Wayne
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Could it be a low quality picture enhanced with a drawning program ??? :-?
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The images are clearly derived from a larger source. The uneven edges prove it, and can also rule out the possibility that someone made the image with a vector graphics program (edges to blurry. Either it was a really big source, or the delinquent used a pretty crappy image editor.
Hopefully the latter.
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@Wayne
Apolgies for my assumptions. :oops:
I remember seeing something similar to this in the gallery at one point. I'm not sure if it's the same though.
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@NoFastMem - Love the avatar, really brings back memories lol
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Wayne
if you try google images and type amigaorg you will get LOTS of pics like this:
http://pingu.ii.uj.edu.pl/~armo/homepage/amigallery/pix/amigaorg_1.jpg
!!!!!!!!!!!
So, somebody posted your 300 dpi somewhere and it travelled the world through the net... :-o
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Ebay dont seem to care about the selling of amiga software. Auctions containing such things rarely seem to be removed by their administrators.....
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I think that the fact that everything "Amiga" can be obtained on 5 little polycarbonate discs is far more disturbing...
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It is probably no 'all' things amiga in existance. But it is surely a substantial lot.
But I do not find it disturbing to all be on a few dvd's. Storage capacities are advancing rapidly. The software devoloped for amiga was mainly carried by DD 3.5" disks. Since classic amiga software development came to a standstill you can expect all things amiga to fit on one single data carrier in the future. Not disturbing, but progress.
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"...What worries me is that the logo being displayed is ripped directly off of a proof file (300dpi original) that I have only shared with 3 people in the entire history of this site. How it got in the hands of this pirate is beyond me..."
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Send those three to me...
"..vee haff vays unt means of making you tok, ja?
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Animagic,
Thanks. That clarifies how it got out. It was stolen from when we used to have a Cafepress store.
Wayne
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I now have the Amiga.org logo as a published copyright with ebay through their Vero program. Please take a moment to search ebay and let me know if this is still happening, so I can send in complaints and get the pirates booted.
Wayne
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what were theese exacly? they are all removed.
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I realize that I may be alone on this. This is actualy a good way to perserve some amiga software that may become lost. If a publisher has isses with those dvd's they should do something, fact is most publishers have moved on and could care less if the software lost for ever. Amix is just about lost becasue if this. I'm amazed that they can sell this and hope that more people can be turned onto cool amiga software. The window of oppertunity to make real money off the amiga is long gone! (most of that stuff is now abandon ware). Hey I understand it upsetting that somebody stole your logo but it may have brought some new people to this site. I just think at this point in history we should be happy to see amiga stuff, some of it hase to be pirited becasue the origional owners and long gone while there are still new users showing up! Man I wish I could get a Mami lic, or a MUI key, but it aint gonna happen is it.... O.k. now go ahead and hate me...
peace.
Pierre
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pierre wrote:
Man I wish I could get a Mami lic, or a MUI key, but it aint gonna happen is it.
Not for Miami, but you can still register MUI http://www.sasg.com/cgi-sasg/order_info?app=mui (http://www.sasg.com/cgi-sasg/order_info?app=mui)
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you are right and I did!! I ment magicWB.... get them confused...
Pierre
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Yep, the link is gone.
About :Being afraid of the lost of ....
Copying..ok?
Piracy...no!
I hope I will never get into such trouble!
Amiga is good, do not make it worse!
frisby
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Coolit wrote:
I noticed this the other day :( Some guys on the English Amiga Board a while ago were talking about the piracy on eBay. They reported it to eBay and I think it was removed from the listings.
I guess it’s up to the webmaster to ask eBay to remove the Amiga.org banner if he wants to, I certainly would. I think there’s more than one guy using the banner on eBay btw.
Edit:Another Logo Thief! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11047&item=8208267259&rd=1)
Didn't even know there was an English Amiga grp... will check that out... any web address please?
Nick H
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Wayne wrote:
What worries me is that the logo being displayed is ripped directly off of a proof file (300dpi original) that I have only shared with 3 people in the entire history of this site. How it got in the hands of this pirate is beyond me.
Wayne
It´s what pirates have they get what multibillions dollar companies can´t do.I always think that if all these power of the pirates and crackers was used for the good.........
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I think you'll find that one's a hare - not a rabbit!!!!
Hares run faster than rabbits, and as it's about fast ram
I imagine they would use a hare!!!!
Sorry to be pedantic - now there's a bit word for such an
early hour of Friday morning!!!
Yesnaby
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NIckH wrote:
Didn't even know there was an English Amiga grp... will check that out... any web address please?
Nick H
http://eab.abime.net/ (http://eab.abime.net/)
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Amiga DVDs (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THE-ULTIMATE-AMIGA-GAMES-COLLECTION-ON-3-DVDS-FOR-PC_W0QQitemZ300140371598QQihZ020QQcategoryZ98929QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)
Another lot. Interestingly enough this collection contains NightLong. The seller specifically states:
"Note to ebay staff: The version of software contained on this CD is public domain."
Nightlong is PD?!? If so where can I get it from?
-(e)
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sweetlilmre wrote:
Nightlong is PD?!? If so where can I get it from? -(e)
I doubt the validity of those claims. That DVD set also contains T-Zero, Wasted Dreams and Earth 2140. I know some of those are still sold by Amiga dealers. The guy is just bullsh!ting.
________
COLORADO DISPENSARIES (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)
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So he's pirating them...
Time to alert the Amiga.org Anti-Piracy Squad? :-D
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Or maybe just a friendly note to the current copyright holders, if you can find them, as they're the only ones that can legally file a complaint. Regardless of everyone's intentions, it's not legal--in the United States, at least--to make such a complaint unless you are the actual copyright holder or trademark owner. Keep that in mind the next time you feel like playing Batman. ;-)
EDIT
The reason I point that out is this: Let's say you make a formal complaint. eBay removes the auction based on your complaint. The auction holder then proves that yes, they were indeed authorized to sell or use the items in question. You as the complainant are now responsible for all losses incurred by the auction holder as a result of the removal of the auction.
Wayne is obviously entitled to protect his tradmark and copyrights. The rest of us, however, must tread lightly. Also recall that morality is entirely subjective, and the concept of ownership in the American and Westerm European sense is not universal. When in doubt, don't seek your own remedy. Instead, consult with an attorney.
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omg, I can't believe how many anal people I know in the Amiga community who jump up and down when they see Amiga software pirated, but then go and pirate Amstrad CPC or C64 software (which has NOT been officially placed into the public domain). double standard? I think so!
(btw, someone will probably delete this post as they did in the other similar thread - I guess they are one of these double-standard people)
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What I don't understand is why anyone cares any more?
I understand the current software publishers protecting their software and sales, but that is up to THEM to do, not the anal anti-piracy police here.
I understand AI wanting to protect Amiga OS and ROM piracy. They have a vested interest.
I will also go overboard to protect MY copyrighted Amiga.org logo image. Why? Because it's mine.
What I don't understand is a few people here going ape {bleep} over protecting long-dead software where the author has either moved on or completely forgotten about it in the first place.
Get over it people.
Granted, I'm not inviting pirates to invade AO here. I still kill pirate links where they're posted, but that's because I don't want AO to become a "accomplice" to piracy in itself. That's a slippery slope to come back from, about like the idiots using Amiga.org to promote Bill Buck and his crap.
I guess I just don't understand the people who are all "Oh My God! Someone's pirating a 20 year old, dead piece of software!" mentality, any more than I understand why this two year old, dead thread was resurrected..
Wayne
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I guess I just don't understand why this two year old, dead thread was resurrected..
Because it's a sticky topic. Just unsticky it and it will die automatically (again) :-)
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personally, I like the fact I get a nicely packaged product and generally buy them, but if others pirate software I couldn't care less - I'm especially against idiots who say it's ok to pirate eg: c64 software but not Amiga software - they are just inconsistent morons - pick a side ffs (I totally dislike people though selling it, that is a criminal offense here, and it takes away potential customers from my business)
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McVenco wrote:
Because it's a sticky topic. Just unsticky it and it will die automatically (again) :-)
Thanks man, I never realized it was sticky. Guess another moderator did that at some point. Need to go check all the forums to see what is and isn't sticky.
Wayne
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I also have no real problem with old, no longer commercially sold or supported software being passed around. We all state how bad we want the Amiga platform to remain alive and then in the next breath try to kill it. Most people would much prefer to own original software with original packaging and documentation. I know I would. But if you check the titles that were being offered on the "pirated" CD's and then do a search on EBay to find originals you will almost always find that if you want the game or program the "pirated" copy is your only option. If an original piece of software and a "pirated" copy are put up for sale at the same time I don't need to tell you which would sell for the highest price. If I want a program and I can get a "pirated" copy for $1 or the original for $25 I will buy the original every time and I think most people would. If we make it impossible for Amiga user's to get software that is no longer available or supported we have just closed the lid on the coffin. If I have an original program I have no problem or resentment that someone else has a copy. I have what I want and he most likely has the only thing he could get.
Dan :madashell:
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Nightlong is PD?!? If so where can I get it from?
Am I thinking of the wrong game, or wasn't there a demo verion of Nightlong origianlly available from Aminet long long ago? I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that I downloaded if from Aminet even before the commercial version was released. (Took a few days if I recall) Some one would have to get one of this guy's CDs and actually confirm it contains the PD and not the commercial version. He may be counting on the fact that no one will botherif it's truely the commercial version.
P.S. Yes, just did a bit of googling and I'm pretty sure there was a multi-floppy demo verion of this once on aminet. I probably couldn't find it among my old floppies even if you paid me to look though.
Plaz
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Most people here have been messing with amiga,s for years.how many can honestly say they have never had pirated amiga software personaly i have about 30 cds of it stored from the old days car boot sales and the like its what funded my amiga habit and im still here ive spent lots on commercial software/hardware over the years but kept the cds for back up purpose only and nostalgia hope this doesant offend anybody
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@Roj
I agree but I don't agree with the Bears Logo
GO BROWNS!!!!!!!!
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if you really want to upset the seller, buy it, then complain to ebay that it's a fake you get to keep the disks and get your money back. i have done that a few times! :lol:
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we are forgetting the fact that most amiga software isnt available to buy new anymore....and buying originals of the bay etc does nothing to help the developers who put it together....no cash goes into their pocket.
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in reality the availability of the software doesn't make it free for the taking/selling whether it's c64, amiga, amstrad cpc or gameboy advance. it doesn't matter whether there's a company around to sue or not. if you copy it for personal use or sell it though has different legal ramifications based on the law of where you live as to whether it's a criminal offence or not. but there is no distinguishing of one platform is ok to pirate for and another isn't. this is what I dislike about some anal people, they seem to have different opinions regarding platforms and piracy. honestly I don't think I know a single person (friends, or even colleges at work) who hasn't copied a computer program, a picture, a piece of text (without proper quoting), recorded a tv program prior to 3 years ago (which was illegal here), copies mp3s to their ipod etc... whether the copyright laws are moral or not, whether you pirate for personal use or not (ie: rip your music cds for listening on your computer), honestly I couldn't care less, but... what I hate is buying software on ebay and receiving pirated stuff. if they were outright open and said they were selling pirated software, fine, I'll just avoid it. the amount of pirated gameboy advance games are actually so bad on ebay that I just cannot buy gameboy advance games anymore from there. and no, I don't think amiga, c64, amstrad cpc software are ok to sell pirated.
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I also would be upset if I bought software on EBay that was presented as being original and when it arrived was a copy. But on the other hand if I bought something that was listed as being a back-up I would know exactly what I was getting and would buy it only if an original was not available. In my mind if a company stops making and selling a software title they are more or less giving up the ability to make money off of that software. If you read the small print on a lot of software you are not buying the software but only a license to use it. In those cases it is illegal to sell the original copy for someone elses use. The "only-original can be sold" crowd around here never seem to take this into account when passing judgement on others. They have drawn a moral line in the sand which is not always the legal line. Believe me, if the copyright owner has a problem with their software being illegally sold they will do something about it. We don't have to. I know this from first hand expierence with MicroSoft by having two different items I was selling taken off from EBay. Both times they were new still sealed software that was original but was meant to be sold with a computer system. I still think I had the right to sell them but MicroSoft and the law said otherwise, and they didn't need some do-gooder with nothing better to do than worry about someone else's business to tell them. They actively protect what is theirs. This is not the case with 10 and 20 year old Amiga software that hasn't been available for that long from the publisher. Over 90% of Amiga software is abandon-ware in the true sense.
Dan :getmad:
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I'd be especially upset since the WHDLoad installers require originals.
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I missed it..what was he selling??
Rich
ny
Cyberus wrote:
Not only copyrighted software (the sticking point being the fact that the guy's SELLING it), but he even half-inched the A.Org logo!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98929&item=8208728157&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98929&item=8208728157&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
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Someone Please list this guys EBAY name.. on this site..
Thanks
Rich
ny
sweetlilmre wrote:
Amiga DVDs (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THE-ULTIMATE-AMIGA-GAMES-COLLECTION-ON-3-DVDS-FOR-PC_W0QQitemZ300140371598QQihZ020QQcategoryZ98929QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)
Another lot. Interestingly enough this collection contains NightLong. The seller specifically states:
"Note to ebay staff: The version of software contained on this CD is public domain."
Nightlong is PD?!? If so where can I get it from?
-(e)
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dannyp1 wrote:
They have drawn a moral line in the sand which is not always the legal line.
Dan :getmad:
Let's look at it another way... so you are happy to screw over the few remaining retailers who may specialise in selling both new and used software for uncommon systems (eg: amstrad cpc, c64, amiga) but not the current developers?
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I guess if you ignore laws and base things on morals, everyone has different values. eg: you don't mind people selling pirated stuff if it doesn't hurt current developers (even though it hurts current retailers) and I don't mind people pirating stuff for their own purpose as long as they don't sell it... there's probably other grounds too. yes, i do download Amstrad CPC games and play them, and still buy NEW/used originals for it too (even though it's a 1984 computer!). I don't play Amiga games though and recently sold off all my Amiga games (not utilities) and got good prices mind you. I use the utilities on my Pegasos 2 and hense I kept the originals.
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I think you kind of made my point for me with your post. You don't want a moral judgement, you want a legal one. Well I'm willing to bet that some of the original software you sold was licensed to you to use. By you selling it you were illegally transferring the license. That is ignoring the law just as much as someone downloading an illegal copy. Either way it takes a sale away from the original publisher. Laws were broken both ways. You made your own moral judgement that one was OK to do and the other wasn't.
You also made my point when you stated that you got good prices for the programs you sold. Most people do want to own a "legal" version of the software and are willing to pay for it. Also many people acquire illegal games, try them out and like them, and then try to acquire an original.
It really boils down to eliminating the ability to acquire a large amount of the software for the Amiga from present and future hobbiests. This won't help the community grow and prosper, it will kill it.
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dannyp1 wrote:
By you selling it you were illegally transferring the license. That is ignoring the law just as much as someone downloading an illegal copy. Either way it takes a sale away from the original publisher. Laws were broken both ways. You made your own moral judgement that one was OK to do and the other wasn't.
No, legally this falls under the Doctrine of First Sale.
You also made my point when you stated that you got good prices for the programs you sold. Most people do want to own a "legal" version of the software and are willing to pay for it. Also many people acquire illegal games, try them out and like them, and then try to acquire an original.
It really boils down to eliminating the ability to acquire a large amount of the software for the Amiga from present and future hobbiests. This won't help the community grow and prosper, it will kill it.
I have a number of illegitimate software and games that I have acquired by way of numerous acquisitions of hardware and software, or unmarked boxes of Amiga stuff. Some of them I have tried out and decided that I would like to replace them with the originals. To me, doing so is not about supporting the original developers or distributors who are either not interested in the Amiga or just plain gone, but instead supporting those who have remained custodian over the items for however many years. I often buy new or used things from recognized dealers supporting the community. I also will buy from those who owned and used and cared for the items over the years, and I prefer to deal with those who love the spirit rather than those who wish to profit from it.
When I sell my stuff I am not doing so to "make a profit," I want to sell to someone who will appreciate and love them as much as I did. I feel that is a greater tribute to the original developers and to the hobbyist community.
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I generally don't buy software to support anyone. I buy it because I want an original. I am not going to "pay" for a copy. I won't actually pay for a download either (like Nintendo Wii Virtual Console games or things from itunes) for the reason, I want an original physical product.
As for licencing. I don't really care much for that. The fact I've bought something, that's enough for me. Heck, what was I supposed to do with my MS Windows XP which I bought? Tick I don't agree and therefore write off the money I bought it for? No, I tick agree regardless because I bought it. If they wanted me to agree to something, they should have got me to agree BEFORE selling it to me. Having said that, I haven't actually broken their EULA as far as I know, but it doesn't stop me totally disagreeing with it.
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zhulien wrote:
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whether the copyright laws are moral or not, whether you pirate for personal use or not (ie: rip your music cds for listening on your computer), honestly I couldn't care less, but... what I hate is buying software on ebay and receiving pirated stuff. if they were outright open and said they were selling pirated software, fine, I'll just avoid it. the amount of pirated gameboy advance games are actually so bad on ebay that I just cannot buy gameboy advance games anymore from there. and no, I don't think amiga, c64, amstrad cpc software are ok to sell pirated.
Recently, there has been a guy selling replicas of the Commodore 64 Promenade C1 EPROM burner machine.
But he makes it clear these are replicas and he sells them for about 100$ each.
The real machine I have seen sell in the past for up to 300$ but from a functional point of view, there is no difference between the real thing and the replica. The both work just as well.
However, some smart ass from Hong Kong bought a bunch of these replicas only to later sell them as the original thing... no need to mention the collectors who bought these replicas were quite pissed.
I find it right to replicate a product, software or hardware, if the owner of the intellectual property has made it explicit they couldn't care that people make copies, as was the case with the Promenade but at least sell them for what they are.
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eslapion wrote:
I find it right to replicate a product, software or hardware, if the owner of the intellectual property has made it explicit they couldn't care that people make copies
I agree