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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: MskoDestny on July 12, 2005, 04:34:25 PM
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Someone recently sent me a link to a low-cost Spartan 3 (an FPGA) dev board and it revived an idea I had for a hobby project. No idea whether or not I'll attempt it (or if I could complete it if I tried), but I think it's a fun idea to dream about.
Basically it would be a Coldfire V4e based computer with a mostly AGA compatible chipset and modern connectivity (PCI, USB, Ethernet). The AGA-like stuff would be implemented on FPGA and would support the classic modes and sound formats, but would also have updated modes for things like 24-bit color and 16-bit 5.1(6) channel sound. Nothing too fancy like 3D acceleration or a sound DSP, though I suppose with a PCI card and appropriate drivers you could get those as well.
Ideally it would be able to run Amiga OS 3.X (ROMs and install disks would probably have to be provided by the user) with the help of that 68K emulation and a new 680XX.library and AROS (obviously the Amiga port would have to be revived).
Personally, I think this would be really cool. It would retain the classic hardware that helped make the Amiga so cool, but would also bring the machine forward enough to be useful for lightweight computer tasks. Obviously it would be a rather foolish commercial venture, but I see this as more of a hobby project than anything.
So I guess the question is, in the unlikely event that I actually do this, would anyone buy one and how cheap would it have to be.
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Sure, it sounds interesting, but what about the legal issues in regards to this venture? Would there be a need for some sort of a license?
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150€? Well, for this Project you could try seek AROS, as they might allow you to avoid legal issues while having a full AmigaOS(like system)
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I'm just wondering if the chipset itself would be legal? Like if he were to create AGA compatible FPGA replacements... ?
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In theory patents could be an issue, but I seem to remember someone saying that the patents on the chipset have since expired. It's also possible the design would end up being different enough that it wouldn't be considered infringement. My friend's brother is a patent lawyer so in the unlikely event this goes anywhere I could ask him for advice.
As for Amiga OS copyrights, if I bundled it at all I would buy existing legitimate ROMs and disks or would see if Amiga Inc. would be willing to license it (I kind of doubt it, but if they're desparate for cash...).
I doubt I could do it for 150 euros. In low quantities (40+) the 266MHz V4e chips cost around $40 US. An appropriate FPGA would probably be in the neighborhood of $50 (not really sure on this one, I haven't done any FPGA work, just CPLDs so I'm not sure how big of an FPGA this will need). Add in board manufacturing and I might be able to sell one for $300, but that's just a guess.
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You could save a lot money/headache by using Soft-core 68K CPU fitted directly inside spartan fpga. It'll be fast enough and have a lot better compatibility with old code than Coldfires are able.
IIRC there may well be one suitable at www.opencores.org
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x56h34 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the chipset itself would be legal? Like if he were to create AGA compatible FPGA replacements... ?
You can only patent implementations, if he designes his own AGA compatible chip, he does not need to worry about patents any more than the UAE people do :-)
I like the idea though :-D
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JoannaK wrote:
You could save a lot money/headache by using Soft-core 68K CPU fitted directly inside spartan fpga. It'll be fast enough and have a lot better compatibility with old code than Coldfires are able.
IIRC there may well be one suitable at www.opencores.org
Personally, I would base the whole thing around an XScale CPU (With a 68K Jit emualtor) with a CPLD/FPGA (Whatever is cheapest) to emulate the AGA registers/features but with the GFX and audio output being directed to standard off-the-shelf video and audio parts.
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Depending on how many gates/cells it would require a Soft-core 68K might not be a bad idea for a compatibility mode, but I don't think it makes much sense for a main CPU. At the speeds I'd likely to be able to get I would probably just be better off with a 40MHz EC030 (~$60 from Digikey). Doesn't look like they have a 68000 at opencores anyway, just a 6800.
For me, the XScale + off-the-shelf solution would be cheating and not really a "real" Amiga anymore. Still, not a bad idea to keep in mind.
I think if I do attempt this I'll start with a Spartan 2 in a PCI form factor (fpga4fun sells a $99 board in this config) and work on AGA compatible video hardware. I could then modify UAE to send video writes to this card for testing. That way I can break down the system into pieces for testing.
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I needed to check, it's been some time since I visited that site. See :
http://www.opencores.org/projects.cgi/web/k68/overview
Apparently it's been uploaded about two years ago and has not been debugged since. Ah well, at least it's opensource and I think it could make nice start for project.
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Ah, okay. I didn't see it because I didn't turn off the filter that prevents beta cores from being shown.
It looks like it's relatively small. If I use a large enough Spartan 3 (maybe the 1000 part) and I'm thrifty with the AGA stuff I could probably fit it in. Definately a possibility for a compatability boot mode. If it doesn't fit, I suppose I could make a second core with just a standard AGA or even ECS to save space and just add an option at boot to choose a core.
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If you could keep the price around $300 I would surely buy one from you.
Should also be nice if it would fit in a mini tower or something.
Hope you will work it out.
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> I'm just wondering if the chipset itself would be legal?
> Like if he were to create AGA compatible FPGA replacements... ?
That's all the BoXeR was. Too bad that went down the tubes... This sounds like quite a project, I hope you actually get someplace with it.
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Ive worked on a project like this. Not the programmable logic but on the software side. The problem was simulair to this. The approach we took was like this.
To recreate the exact functionality of exsisting hardware lab proto's were buidt that could interface with the original hardware. For instance; you pop out the device you want to replace. Build a protoboard that connects to the original interface (or directly to the PCB) The protoboard contains glue circuitry and your programmable device. The glue is to cope with electrical incompatibilities between the new decive and the current interface.
You program your new design in your programmable device. When your design is functionally the same and all works as before you advance to the next device. After all devices are redesigned into seperate parts you can take the next step.
Melting your design into one fpga. At this point you can estimate how much of your design will fit into your target device. You could decide to split things in order to be more expandable.
Ofcourse this will require some redesigning because interfaces will change again. At least your functional blocks are correct. You verified them using the existing hardware.
When you have melted the blocks into your target devices, redesigned the PCB (with expandability in mind, and got it all working again you can add nice features to the design.
But I would first of all keep it simple.
A collegue of mine made a drop in replacement for the 6510 CPU this way just for fun. He has been expanding that design to a more modern architecture (he said he got to 68040 comparable performance) but the project is in the ice cabinet now since he has become father recently.
Still, I think these ventures are technically possible, but as a one man project it is probably too much work.
It also requires some cash. When you run into trouble (and you will) you need pretty expensive equipment to measure all the signals you are interested in.
But it is always nice to think about these projects.
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Since you're at it why not finish the AAA chipset instead and make it AGA compatible. Then you could implement it in FPGA in a PCI card so that any future Amiga could have classic compatibility. I think like that would make it much more comercially viable, just look at the Classic Amiga sales on eBay.
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Well I don't think testing the bits and pieces in an Amiga would be the most practical route for me. It gets me involved in more of a mess timing-wise and requires a logic analyzer much earlier in the process. If I test bits of pieces by attaching the FPGA to a PC and use a modified version of UAE, I can debug problems using simple testing software and an FPGA simulator.
I'm definately going to break it down into small pieces though. That's a lesson I've learned from application programming.
I'm willing to invest in a logic analyzer and scope when it becomes necessary (fortunately these are becoming available on ebay for reasonable prices), but I'm going to try and avoid that at least until I get the first prototype with the Coldfire and FPGA working together.
It is probably too much work for one person, which is why I think it unlikely I'll ever complete this project. I might try to rope someone else in at some point, but I think it will be difficult unless I can find someone locally (since there would need to be a lot of duplicated equipment otherwise) and currently I don't have any local friends who are interested in stuff this low level.
We'll see how it goes. I have to wait until I get a new job to start on the hardware (interview this Friday, here's hoping), but I might take a look at the AROS source again tonight and see just how much of a pain it will be to get a basic Amiga port going again.
EDIT:
Since you're at it why not finish the AAA chipset instead and make it AGA compatible. Then you could implement it in FPGA in a PCI card so that any future Amiga could have classic compatibility. I think like that would make it much more comercially viable, just look at the Classic Amiga sales on eBay.
Is there any real solid information on the operation of the AAA chipset other than basic specs? Even so, the AAA chipset was designed to work with classic 68Ks and all of those are rather slow compared to the Coldfire and the faster ones (040 or 060) are relatively expensive in comparison.
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MskoDestny wrote:
We'll see how it goes. I have to wait until I get a new job to start on the hardware (interview this Friday, here's hoping), but I might take a look at the AROS source again tonight and see just how much of a pain it will be to get a basic Amiga port going again.
AROS could take some of the sting out of the tail... I mean the OS abstracted quite a bit of the hardware away from the apps... you could use the 68k port of AROS and then run native Amiga software on that which would use off the shelf parts, Maybe with just CIA emulation at and first slowly adding more AGA functionailty to the FPGA.
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It was sad to see the BoXeR fizzle away without a trace. That Mick Tinker guy must have put a lot of work into it and in the end it didn't get the recognition and sales it deserved.
On the other hand, smaller and less ambitious projects may well have proved more fruitful such as the various USB adaptors, PCI bridges etc.
Judging by your finances and manpower I think you should look at things realistically and build up a buffer of cash and get some sort of team together. The Amiga community is full of genius and zero financial sense and this has to change before we erase ourselves right off the map.
Look at BMW for example, or Mercedes and Porsche. You could say they design some pretty bland and samey cars - they're conservative but underneath excellent. By evolving slowly they have evolved strongly and now BMW are talking of a 60,000 UKP car that can do 200MPH!
I think rather than design a novel motherboard or platform that you have a geek-dream about (Hey I have always dreamt of building a CD32 laptop!) you should find something that all Amiga consumers will want.
But whatever you do, do it to perfection. Like the Picasso IV or Blizzard 1230-IV!
;-)
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Finances will not be a problem if this interview goes well.
Again, this is really just a hobby project. If I do it, I'll be doing it to have fun and that will be my measure of success. Most of the equipment I'd need for testing I was planning on buying eventually anyway. Only reason I plan on selling them because I'd like to share my work with the Amiga community and I can't do that for free.
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What if someone wants a repair? You could get into a DCE situation where they struggled to find parts for the Cyberstorm PPC cards and you could have a linch mob on your hands!
:-)
Don't you think Eyetech have the motherboard market wrapped up now though with the distinctive AmigaOne brand and also there are Pegasos computers too!
Not many people understand what Aros is, myself included. Sounds a bit like DOpus Magellan to me - a sort of AmigaOS compatible replacement.
If I was to make a hardware wishlist here would be my Top 10:
01) GFX card for desktop A1200
02) AGA compatible laptop
03) Dual monitor capable PCI/Zorro GFX card
04) Hack to use 1.44MB floppy drive instead of A1200 880K drive
05) Video digitiser with hi-speed Teletext saving
06) 24-Bit capable scandoubler/flicker-fixer
07) Digital cooling system for 5.25" drivebays with links to clockport
08) Coldfire accelerator with integrated 3D GFX accelerator
09) A tablet Amiga
10) An Amiga TV-Games style joystick with 2-player support
:-)
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Hyperspeed wrote:
What if someone wants a repair? You could get into a DCE situation where they struggled to find parts for the Cyberstorm PPC cards and you could have a linch mob on your hands!
V4e coldfires and Spartan 3 FPGAs should be available for a long time. Besides unless it looks like these things are going to be fairly popular (at least >100 units) I doubt I'll sell these with a warranty (or at least not a very long one).
Don't you think Eyetech have the motherboard market wrapped up now though with the distinctive AmigaOne brand and also there are Pegasos computers too!
There seem to be a fair number of people who don't see these as "real" Amigas since the hardware isn't anything special. I would imagine the primary market for this device would be among those people, but once again this isn't designed to be a financial success, just a fun project.
Not many people understand what Aros is, myself included. Sounds a bit like DOpus Magellan to me - a sort of AmigaOS compatible replacement.
AROS is to Amiga OS as Linux is to Unix as FreeDOS is to MS DOS as ReactOS is to Windows etc. It's a clone. It's written from scratch to mimic Amiga OS. Also, this hardware should run Amiga OS 3.X with the appropriate ROMs and install disks. No AROS required.
01) GFX card for desktop A1200
I would think that a Mediator+PCI card would do better than I could.
02) AGA compatible laptop
If the desktop version sells well I'll consider converting it into a laptop form factor. It will be a relatively low-power machine so it won't take much jiggering to make a laptop with the same basic design.
03) Dual monitor capable PCI/Zorro GFX card
Such PCI cards exist, it's just a matter of hacking OS 3.X to support multiple monitors and writing a driver.
05) Video digitiser with hi-speed Teletext saving
Don't think I can help you there as I live in the US and the Television standards are different and I don't have any PAL equipment to test on.
06) 24-Bit capable scandoubler/flicker-fixer
Aren't there already a couple (admittedly hard to find) cards that can do this?
08) Coldfire accelerator with integrated 3D GFX accelerator
Supposedly the folks over at Elbox are working on this one...
09) A tablet Amiga
See 2.
10) An Amiga TV-Games style joystick with 2-player support
If the softcore fits along with the chipset I could theoretically make one of these too, but getting all those old games to work would probably be a pain because of timing issues.
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Depending on the degree of compatibility with the original platform I would be VERY interested in one, and maybe some Amiga stores would be too.
Here in Amsterdam I met a few people that just recently bought a brand new A1200, which should say somthing about the demand at the moment...
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If you got what it takes to design something this logic i would say go for it.Sounds like an exselent project i would probably buy on from you if you were to sucssed
adonay:-D
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@ Hyperspeed
04) Hack to use 1.44MB floppy drive instead of A1200 880K drive
http://www.inf.mit.bme.hu/private/fz357/
06) 24-Bit capable scandoubler/flicker-fixer
Pick one.... The DblScan4000 is 24-bit, as is the CV64/3D scandoubler and the Picasso-IV flickerfixer. Any external scandoubler should be 24-bit capable (being an analog device), but I'm not 100% sure about that, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
-Paul
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Tahoe wrote:
Depending on the degree of compatibility with the original platform I would be VERY interested in one, and maybe some Amiga stores would be too.
Here in Amsterdam I met a few people that just recently bought a brand new A1200, which should say somthing about the demand at the moment...
My goal is for most software that would run on an 040 A4000 would run on this machine. There will be some code that will break on the ColdFire because not everything can be emulated via trapping unimplemented instructions,(flags not being set on certain multiply instructions for instance) but it doesn't look like that should kill a huge number of applications. I hope to increase compatability with either (or maybe both) a softcore 68K in the FPGA or a modified version of UAE which can pass hardware access to the chipset in the machine and thunk OS calls to the OS running outside the emulation environment.
Any external scandoubler should be 24-bit capable (being an analog device), but I'm not 100% sure about that, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
I was under the impression that most external scandoublers worked by digitizing the analog signal into a framebuffer and then spitting the digitized image back out through a DAC at VGA timings. At least that's how I seem to remember some little homebrew one working. If that's the case, it really depends on the ADCs and DACs used. Of course, I could be wrong too.
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MskoDestny wrote:
My goal is for most software that would run on an 040 A4000 would run on this machine. There will be some code that will break on the ColdFire because not everything can be emulated via trapping unimplemented instructions,(flags not being set on certain multiply instructions for instance) but it doesn't look like that should kill a huge number of applications. I hope to increase compatability with either (or maybe both) a softcore 68K in the FPGA or a modified version of UAE which can pass hardware access to the chipset in the machine and thunk OS calls to the OS running outside the emulation environment.
Keep us updated, sounds really cool!
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PaSha: There is no way I'm going to follow that hack! It's a lot of work for something as minor as getting 1.76MB instead of 880K...
:-o
Whyever did Commodore put an 880K drive into the AGA A1200 and a 1.76MB into the AGA A4000!? PCs of that era had 1.44MB drives even on the 386 laptops like Amstrad ALT-386SX.
Maybe I'll just take the thing out and put a card reader in or something - but then I'd lose DF0: unless I rigged it up externally.
:-(
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Heh..... if I had the skills to do a Hobby Amiga ....
I would take an A1000 motherboard, measure it, and re-design an AGA (or even a simple ECS version) and try and somehow dual processor a pair of 060's right on the motherboard. (I mean actually create a brand new mobo replacement that fits exactly in the A1000)
Maybe even add PPC somehow. This coldfire CPU is also interesting. If you really want to do a hobby puter. Add a 3rd different type of CPU to the mix like that and come up with some new "tWisTeD AmIGA" in a 1000.
Why a 1000 case? Gotta have a keyboard garage babY!
I'd redo the power supply, making it half the size, so I can install some sort of new harddrive tray on the left side to hold a 3.5 HD. Intergrate a scan doubler, add some DIMM sockets, hell maybe even figure out a way to put a video card right there on the motherboard which the AGA (or ECS) can pass thru on it's way to the scan doubler.
Cut a hole in the plastic front panel big enough for one of those laptop CD drives.... plop down 2mb of chip ram mobo mem, 2 meg or so of video ram for whatever type of RTG system u add. And Poof!
A twisted fantasy Amiga!
Heh
Of course it sounds easy dreaming about it ;)
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Hyperspeed wrote:
PaSha: There is no way I'm going to follow that hack! It's a lot of work for something as minor as getting 1.76MB instead of 880K...
Hey... you asked for a HD floppy drive hack, and that's it. There is ofcourse also the Catweasel+kylwalda combo...
Whyever did Commodore put an 880K drive into the AGA A1200 and a 1.76MB into the AGA A4000!? PCs of that era had 1.44MB drives even on the 386 laptops like Amstrad ALT-386SX.
Money is the reason. The A1200 was made to have a low price, hence the 68EC020 (resulting in 24-bit design instead of 32-bit), missing clock and DD floppy drive (because DD floppy drives were way cheaper than custom made half-speed Amiga HD floppy drives). All Amiga software was shipped on DD floppies anyway.
And in case you didn't know: 1.44 MB drive and 1.76 MB drive = same hardware, it's just that the PC way of dealing with floppies is less efficient. So if you do the above hack, your 'minor' improvement will be the ability to read/write Amiga 880/1760 kB disks, PC 720/1440 kB disks and almost all other 3.5" DD/HD disk formats. And this is what you asked for, yes?
Apologies for the off-topicness of this post.
-Paul
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Tahoe wrote:
Here in Amsterdam I met a few people that just recently bought a brand new A1200, which should say somthing about the demand at the moment...
More about the city of Amsterdam, really. What on Earth have they been smoking...?
/ducks
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MuLTiViEW wrote:
I would take an A1000 motherboard, measure it, and re-design an AGA (or even a simple ECS version) and try and somehow dual processor a pair of 060's right on the motherboard. (I mean actually create a brand new mobo replacement that fits exactly in the A1000)
Maybe even add PPC somehow. This coldfire CPU is also interesting. If you really want to do a hobby puter. Add a 3rd different type of CPU to the mix like that and come up with some new "tWisTeD AmIGA" in a 1000.
Let's not get carried away now...
A single 266MHz V4e Coldfire is probably faster than 2 060s anyway at least when running code compiled for ColdFire (not sure how much overhead implementing the missing instructions adds or how frequently those instructions are used).
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Cymric wrote:
Tahoe wrote:
Here in Amsterdam I met a few people that just recently bought a brand new A1200, which should say somthing about the demand at the moment...
More about the city of Amsterdam, really. What on Earth have they been smoking...?
/ducks
Hahahahaha!!! I know, lot's of smoking. But be fair now, we even have a real retro computer store here, selling Atari's, C='s and lots of Game&Watch nintendo's :-D
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I wonder what happened to Mick Tinker and his designs.
From what I can remember they were along way to the path to completion. Does anyone know where he is now and what how far he had got, perhaps this can be revived as a hobbyist project.
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AFAIK, Anti-Gravity bought the designs from Mick and Blittersoft around 1999-2000.
Dunno what happened after that, did anyone ever get any money back from the pre-orders?