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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmireX on June 09, 2005, 06:23:53 AM
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Hi, yesterday I put a Cyberstorm MkIII 060/50 into my A3000 and strange things happened. If I start the machine without any Zorro card then sometimes :-( is starting up. But in some cases the power LED keeps half bright or I get a software failure (kick rom 3.1 crash's ??) two times I had a green boot screen (CHIP RAM Failure).
If I put my Ariadne I and Cybervision in the Zorro daughterboard then the power LED always keeps half bright and the machine is freezed. On the Cyberstorm card there is a SCSI UW controller (not connected).
On my A3000 motherboard is a Super Buster 07 (really old) but before the Cyberstorm MkIII I had a MkII 060/50 running in the same machine, with the same configuration ??? What is the different ? Is it the integrated SCSI controller on the MkIII (and so the additional DMA request) ?
Here the whole configuration:
A3000 25 Mhz, 2MB Chip, 16 MB Fast, Kick 3.1 / 40.68
Board Rev. 9/03, 08 Onboard SCSI chip
Super Buster 07
INT2 modification
Ariadne I
2GB SCSI Quantum
CyberVision 64 (4MB)
Buddha IDE controller + 160 GB IDE
Hope anybody could help, best regards ReX
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maybe your power supply is weak, check it and its connector.
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I *think* the CS MKIII requires different motherboard jumpers to the CS MKII?
"For the operation of the CYBERSTORM MKIII in the AMIGA 3000 three jumpers on the A3000 mainboard must be set as follows: Jumper (J102)BRDCLK to position EXT, jumper (J104)CPUCLK to position INT, and jumper (J100)QUADCLK to position EXT."
I know that not all of the cyberstorm 060 cards use the same jumper settings, check them out.
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Sorry, I forgot. The jumper settings are correct. This was my first mistake :-)
But the power supply could be weak. I'll try to check it.
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Edit: removed by myself, wasn't applicable to the problem after all.
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He's put in his first post that his A3k already HAS the INT2 mod!
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This sounds to me like a conflict between the on-board SCSI stuff and CSMKIII scsi controller.
I'd remove everything from the on-board SCSI chain and use only CSMKIII SCSI and see if it works.
CSPPC and MKIII are known to sometimes not behave well with A3000 units that are using the on-board motherboard SCSI.
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Does anybody know the real different between the Buster revisions (07 / 09 / 11).
My first idea was that the number of extension in the zorro slots and the additional SCSI controller of the CSMKIII (not so on the CSMKII) produce these strange effects.
It seems that the the machine is really instable. Without any card it boots up OFTEN but not EVER. Adding other expansions freezes the machine at boot time. :-? Eject the CSMKIII everything is working well (after correcting the jumpers).
Tommorow I'll get an Super Buster 11 and will change the '07.
There is always hope :-)
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Hi,
are you really shure that the MK III is Ok?
Sounds to me for a problem with the MK III itself.
Do you have any RAM on this accelerator board? If so, try to remove this and see if the system is running now.
Noster
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alexh wrote:
He's put in his first post that his A3k already HAS the INT2 mod!
oops... :roll: missed that one
Anyways, then I can do nothing but wish you good luck. Hope you get it working, nothing is more annoying than stuff that refuses to work for no obvious reasons.
-Paul
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Be careful when changing chips over. I think the Buster is a PLCC chip and the plastic that makes up the sockets gets brittle with age. ALWAYS use a real PLCC extractor tool (costs a few bucks).
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alexh wrote:
Be careful when changing chips over. I think the Buster is a PLCC chip and the plastic that makes up the sockets gets brittle with age. ALWAYS use a real PLCC extractor tool (costs a few bucks).
Ok, I used the extractor and changed the Buster 07 to Buster 11, but no success. The problem still remains :-(
I also used complete other SIMM modules and configured 2 or 4 SIMM's ... no effect. When I switch back to my Cyberstorm MkII, everything is working well. I hope that the new CSMKIII is not defect !
There seems to be one more different between MKII and MKIII. For the MKII I don't have to change any jumper on the A3k motherboard. But for the MkIII I have to change 2 jumper positions (QUADCLK to EXT, BRDCLK to EXT). The other jumper (CPUCLK) is INT for both cards ??? Seems to me that they changed the whole design.
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he other jumper (CPUCLK) is INT for both cards ???
Yes
Seems to me that they changed the whole design
I'm sure they had to for the Dual CPU / 233MHz clock rates.
Apparently the SCSI on the MKIII has to be terminated whether you are using it or not.
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There is a known problem with the ROM that was flashed on a batch of the Cyberstorm MK III's that Phase 5 put out. I spent a LONNNNGGGG time sending mine back to DCE who did eventually fix it for a pretty decent price (conidering it wasn't their unit)
Mine tending to act up as it got warmer. It may be just the unit but I'm not sure who works on them anymore.
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Seems to me that they changed the whole design
I'm sure they had to for the Dual CPU / 233MHz clock rates.
Apparently the SCSI on the MKIII has to be terminated whether you are using it or not.[/quote]
Dual CPU mean PPC and 060 ? There is an empty PPC place on the card. Unfortunately I have no terminator for UW SCSI. I'm getting more and more crazy :-)
The reason why I try to run the MKIII is that in my A3k are to systems, AOS 3.9 and Amix on an extra hdisk. Amix is running only with 030 CPU and so I wanted to switch of the 060 via software and then reboot to amix. Up to now I had two A3k's running one with Amix, the other one with AOS 3.9. The MkII isn't switchable via software.
If anybody knows a trick how to switch of a CSMKII .. all my problems are solved :-) I tried to make the voltage regulator make switchable. But when you turn it of then the CSMkII is running anyway and takes the needed current via CPU Fast slot (so my theory ..)
One card isn'nt to stop, the other one wont run :boohoo:
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@AmireX:
You could also try remove the motherboard fastmem, I recall some people had issues with that and the accelerator.
I guess it already has been said, but don't forget to set the busclock to external.
If that doesn't help you should check if the fragile solders of the 68060-socket are intact. To do that apply some gentle force on the 68060 with a finger (just a wee bit of force, you should definately not make the board bend!) and power up the computer while still having the finger there and see if it makes a difference.
/Patrik
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Now I changed the power supply .. no success. Then build the card in my second A3k and ... (what do you think .....)
FREEEZE, CRASH, BLINK the complete program :-(
I contacted the seller now, hope he can help ..
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If you need anyone to test it independantly ;)
If I were you, I would remove EVERYTHING except the accelerator.
Take out all the Zorro cards, all the hard drives, all the motherboard fast ram (as someone here said).
See if you can get it to boot to the KS screen. From there try and get some diagnostics on what version firmware it's got etc.
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alexh wrote:
If you need anyone to test it independantly ;)
If I were you, I would remove EVERYTHING except the accelerator.
Take out all the Zorro cards, all the hard drives, all the motherboard fast ram (as someone here said).
See if you can get it to boot to the KS screen. From there try and get some diagnostics on what version firmware it's got etc.
So I tested the whole time, empty A3k, no FAST MEM, no zorro cards, but the daughter board.
But now ----- TA TA TA ---
It R U U U U U U U U U U N S !! :-) :-) :-)
YEEEEEP, I saw a lot of dust on the whole card and the contacts of the fast slot connector were brown under the varnish. So I cleaned first the contacts with spirit, then new varnish. The card runs more often :-o
Then I cleaned the whole card with distilled water, moved the 060 out and in and then back into the A3k and voila ....
It runs stable now. Thanks to this fantastic forum. I learned a lot and now I know --- FIRST CLEAN THE CARD :-D
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I´m glad it runs now. As you wrote before in a mail "but the card wasn't running the last 2 years. Right ?? I cleaned the whole card and after that the problem was solved. This was a really long trip and now I go to sleep 2 hours." the card has indeed been out of work for a while as the seller has stopped using Amiga and only uses WinUAE on his pc. Sorry you had to go to all the trouble but look at it from the good side : you now have a better buster :lol:
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Just got a mail from AmireX that it still doesn´t work 100% and that it often crashes while running or doesn´t even boot correctly. Now I know for sure that the card has worked 100% in the A4000 Micronik tower where it was removed, together with a Picasso IV and Paloma and Z3 Powerflyer and Highway and so on ...
AmireX wants his money back ... as he writes :"
"Hi Effy,
dont know why, but the card isn't working in my two A3k's. I'd tried really everything
but the card and / or the combination A3k and CSMkIII is instable. For a short moment
I thought it runs, but the same evening the trouble begans again. That means in detail:
- the A3k does'nt boot, the power LED keeps half bright and nothing more happens
or
- the A3k power LED blinks and later I get a green screen or a Software Failure (GURU)
If I turn off the amiga for a while (2 minutes) then it often boots correctly but crash's later
in a sofware failure. Maybe there is a contact problem which depends on temperature of
the card. I invested a lot of work and tested it in 2 A3k's with a lot of combinations (I
removed all cards and the whole FAST MEM (this is really hard work)). I cleaned the
card and tested it with my own SIMM rams to find the problem. Believe me, I really, really
would like to have it work in my A3k and up to now I never had such a trouble with
any expansion card.
So let us come together in any way. Your argument could be -- I destroyed the
card while installing it. But maybe it is not working in a A3k or it were destroyed
while dismounting it ???? So my suggestion - you pay back 200 euro and I sent
you back your card completly with rams, manuals, disk and the box. So I
learned never to this again and you can try to sell the card to another one with
the hint "dont know wether it works in a A3k".
I have a long experience in electronic and software because of my work, but nobody is
perfect. Maybe you get it to run.
Greetings, ReX"
Now what ???
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Do we have to discuss it here ?
I really need such a CSMkIII because this CS version is turnable off via BootRom Update and this feature I need to run Amix on the same machine (it needs the original 030 processor).
So it makes no sense for me to buy this card for 249 euro to try 3 days get it to run (my home was a big battle field, 2 opened A3k's and a lot of screws and cards and chips ...) and then sent it back to you for 200 euro and donate you 49 euro for playing with a supsect CSMkIII. I have a lot of other hobbies :)
I could sell it on eBay as a working card (as you say) but I have 100% positive rating ...
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@Effy
you should refund the buyer at 100%.
You know perfectly that this things could happens with CS.
I've "quite" lost a friend, for a similar problem.
The board ALWAYS "works" to the seller home! sometimes its not 100% true.
Sorry but this is my thought.
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There is a lot of reasons why this CSMKIII may be a perfectly working card, however not exactly with this user's A3000 system.
I strongly suggest that the following criteria is matched:
- 3.1 roms installed (I think this is not a compromise with A3000)
- No devices installed on the motherboard SCSI
- INT2 hack is installed and verified to be working
- CSMKIII has proper memory installed (matching pairs must be used...it's best to simply get 128MB in terms of four matching 32MB 60ns simms)
- If you use SCSI devices on CSMKIII SCSI, the chain must be properly terminated (however I wouldn't install any SCSI devices on it until you manage to safely boot the system to the KS3.1 screen)
- No ram on the A3000 motherboard other than 2MB chip ram
- Check if A3000 clock jumpers are set according to the CSMKIII manual.
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x56h34 wrote:
There is a lot of reasons why this CSMKIII may be a perfectly working card, however not exactly with this user's A3000 system.
I strongly suggest that the following criteria is matched:
- 3.1 roms installed (I think this is not a compromise with A3000)
YES
- No devices installed on the motherboard SCSI
I removed everything except the daugtherboard. Complete FAST MEM, tried 2 different power supplies.
- INT2 hack is installed and verified to be working
Installed
- CSMKIII has proper memory installed (matching pairs must be used...it's best to simply get 128MB in terms of four matching 32MB 60ns simms)
Tried 128 MB and 64 MB with 2/4 pairs
- If you use SCSI devices on CSMKIII SCSI, the chain must be properly terminated (however I wouldn't install any SCSI devices on it until you manage to safely boot the system to the KS3.1 screen)
Not used.
- No ram on the A3000 motherboard other than 2MB chip ram
Done.
- Check if A3000 clock jumpers are set according to the CSMKIII manual.
Checked.
I think I'm getting an expert now :-)
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It just won't work, had the same thing here with a CyberstormPPC.
My A4000 the light remained dim, no matter what I tried it just wouldn't boot.
Upgraded the machine to Kick 3.1 and Buster 11, still no go. Even went as far as sending the card back to the seller but with him it worked, both in his 4000 and 1200 tower with Micronik Z3 board.
Eventually got it back and in the meantime got myself another 4000 and it worked straight away, no problems whatsoever.... Seems these cards are a little picky in which machine they run....
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AmireX : "- If you use SCSI devices on CSMKIII SCSI, the chain must be properly terminated (however I wouldn't install any SCSI devices on it until you manage to safely boot the system to the KS3.1 screen)
Not used."
In other words the scsi is not terminated ???
There were spaces in the package to mount the card in the processor slot, have you used them ???
Have you pushed the card hard enough into the processor slot ???
The 128 Mb memory was working when the card was in the tower, so that can not be the problem ...
You also wrote "Then I cleaned the whole card with distilled water, moved the 060 out and in and then back into the A3k and voila ...." but I learned that water on a pcb board is never good, or is it ??? Have you removed the 060 processor like you wrote ???
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Effy wrote:
AmireX : "- If you use SCSI devices on CSMKIII SCSI, the chain must be properly terminated (however I wouldn't install any SCSI devices on it until you manage to safely boot the system to the KS3.1 screen)
Not used."
In other words the scsi is not terminated ???
There are no SCSI devices on the controller !! And to terminate an empty controller makes no sense.
There were spaces in the package to mount the card in the processor slot, have you used them ???
Have you pushed the card hard enough into the processor slot ???
I pushed it and the spaces worked well with my old Cyberstorm card.
And YES I moved the 060 few millimeters in an out with a plastic tool to recontact it. After I cleaned the card with DISTILLED water I used a fan to make it dry again. And it worked for a while after that.
What is your message Effy ? Your card is perfect, but you wont get it back ? I have destroyed the card while mounting ?
The card didn't work from the beginning. All I have done was trying to get it to run. It dont make me happy to built in and out a stupid cpu card.
I think I lost my money ..
Anybody needs a perfect Cyberstorm MkIII with 128 MB RAM ?? (Maybe the card isn't working out of Belgium.)
Good luck with my money - Effy.
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@AmireX
try this before to "shoot" him :-D
Insert the 060 fully again and during the boot (if the system doesn't boot) press a little bit, onto the 060 with a finger.
If the system will boot, the problem is the usual crap unsoldered pin/s of the 060 socket.
About the intermittent freeze/crashes during the normal use, its more difficult.
I have managed to fix the 060 socket problem, with the right tools and much, much patience :-(
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@Framiga
Thank you .. I moved the 060 a little and hoped it helped but I didn't press it at while bootup.
I will try it :-)
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Anyway, if the problem is the socket, its fixable.
EDIT- its a Phase5 or a DCE?
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It's from Phase 5. And the quality of the board is really good. I have three other cards from Phase 5 (2 x Cybervision 64 and the other Cyberstorm MkII) and never had any problem.
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@ Amirex
"..I pushed it and the spaces worked well with my old Cyberstorm card.."
---------------------------------------------------------
I had a problem recently with using the wrong spacers on a PPC card. I had a MKII in my machine, and I got a PPC board, but I left the MKII spacers on my machine because they were difficult to remove and as far as I could see they were fine with the PPC. I also had boot problems, but mostly it didn't boot. Have a look at these pics (they are my A4KT, but the problem is the same):
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=872
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=873
You MUST use the spacers supplied with the card, whether the other spacers appear to work or not. Trust me on this, I made a big tit of myself because of these spacers.
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@ X-ray
Ok, I will check this. And your boot problems were solved with the right spacers ? I thougt they give only more stability to the card. But we will see :-)
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X-ray wrote:
I had a problem recently with using the wrong spacers on a PPC card. I had a MKII in my machine, and I got a PPC board, but I left the MKII spacers on my machine because they were difficult to remove and as far as I could see they were fine with the PPC. I also had boot problems, but mostly it didn't boot. Have a look at these pics (they are my A4KT, but the problem is the same):
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=872
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=873
You MUST use the spacers supplied with the card, whether the other spacers appear to work or not. Trust me on this, I made a big tit of myself because of these spacers.
The wrong-sized spacers were delivered by escom with A4000T's, and are too long, making the card sit in the fast slot at an angle.
Of course, the spacers you have may be something from an a4000t and hence too long. Safest bet is to try running it with no spacers. Anyways, the long spacers are easy to spot, if your CS isn't paralell with the a3000 mainboard, the spacers are too long. (It is quite visibly tilted with the long spacers).
-Paul
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I don't think you can use any kind of spacers other than the default metal ones that come with A3000. The motherboard has no holes for them. So basically, you need to secure your accelerator card by using a pair of non-conductive washers and a pair of screws. You can only do this for the left and right hole on the side that's close to the cpu slot connector. The other two holes on the other, far side are useless with A3000.
I like this method a little better since once your accelerator card is screwed in, in your A3000, it can never pop-out as it can with A4000, during movment or even shipping of your case. :-)
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Ok, back again and the last night I hope. In the A3k case there are other spacers then in the A4k. The card should working also without these spacers. If everything is running fine once can fix the card with 2 screws. That's not the problem.
I pressed the card a little at different positions and found an interesting electronic part. Dont know exactly what it is, but maybe a temperature fuse. If I do some pressure on this element the card is booting. But it needs decent pressure. So the card is twisting a little and the contact problem could be elsewhere.
But anyhow .. the magic part is labeled with "150 PU90" and it's made of two metal parts on top of each other. It is in the near of the voltage regulator and a little diode is direct connected labeled "PH-".
So the card has a problem, because, if I put my finger on this metal all the time it boots up, so my hardware config is ok. But I have only 2 hands and need them both :-)
How can I post a image ? Then I could show the special part.
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- Did you check the INT2 modification before you moved in the CSMK3?
- You say you have no SCSI devices (physically) connected, but what devices are logically connected? Switch of all devices with the CS boot menu screen.
- Is the card secure in the CPU slot (could be causing the occasional green screens)
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No success at all. The card has a contact problem or is incompatible in a special way with my A3k.
I GIVE UP - Thanks for the fantastic help and ..
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I take it he didn't want to refund you any money?
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AmireX . . . beleive me . . .its the 060 socket.
Don't care if you push (incidentally) on those component.
Pushing down on those "thing" you deform/bend a little bit the PCB and therefore the lacks of contact, will works then.
Its a coincidence . . . point your attention, on the 060 socket.
1- remove the 060 and with a small tip (its OK the Multimeter probe tip), check one at a time, ALL the female pins (i know its a nightmare).
Tilt gently, EVERY single pin until you'll find the one (or more) desoldered.
2- more easy . . . send it to Amiga France :-)
btw . . do you have SMD/reworking tools/skills?
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At work I have a SMD workplace and a good environment. But I dont want to do any hardware modification and measurements before Effy definitivly says, that he do not pay the money back.
Because if I pull out the 060 or do some measurements - he will say, that i have destroyed his perfect card ...
So I'm waiting 24 hours and then I know, that I lost my money. If you are really interested I can send you the card.
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me?!? try a "compromise" with Effy.
Everyone here, has lost some money before or after :-(
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Framiga wrote:
me?!? try a "compromise" with Effy.
For testing only of course, dont want to make the same "deal" like Effy.
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but . .don't you have someone closer to you?
I could even "attempt" to perform a fix but remember that this kind of things, are always a "jump in the dark".
btw . . .EFFYYY!!!! where are you? :-)
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"jump in the dark" :-)
I jumped and it was dark, couldnt find the light button ..
Nothing to loose. Let's wait for Effy, then we will see .. if he wants to help me find out or not ?
If not .. be free to jump :-)
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@AmireX
I wouldn't mind testing your board on my Amiga 4000 in case you are interested. I live North of you, so to speak :-)
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We could talk about it after Effy stated to the problem ..
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Back home now, I do happen to do afternoonshift this week so that sounds like a good reason for not answering in the afternoon :-)
AmireX : okay, I shall take your offer like you mailed me. Send the card back and you will get your money like you suggested. Do you feel better now ??? :-?
You got more lucky that I did. I bought this WarpEngine040/40 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8187936272&ed=1114512079000&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOTB:BENL:6) in April. Card appeared not to work, tried two A4000´s and asked the help of two friends. I tried to get my money back, asked the seller for advice but he didn´t want to refund, started the procedure on PayPal but after a week I got the message that his account is too empty to get a refund ... meaning that I lost my money ... :-o
The other thing is that I am not the real seller as the money you sent me has been transferred to the account of the real seller without keeping a single cent !! So who got screwed now do you think ??? :-?
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Effy, its not his fault.. now its up to you to work out the problem with whoever gave/sold you the card.
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Thank you Effy, I hope that the seller is correct like you ..
I'll send you the card this weekend. Let the seller test the card again in his A4k and I'm curious to know if it's working or not.
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Okay then. When the card arrives I shall send you the requested money. Please do send me a personal email with your IBAN+BIC codes ...
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happy for knowing the thing has been fixed :-)
@All
someone (techie) knows what is those metallic component near the TermPower diode/SCSI socket? (CSPPC-CSMK3)
X150---(not sure about the X-seems a simbol/logo)
OU9J---(not sure of the O--or 0)
Seems a drain/protection resistor or an inductance (0 OHM misured onboard)
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OK, so far I've tried not to interfere in this discussion because I was convinced that with the help of other people you would soon find out what the problem was. Seems I was wrong. Incidentally, I am the original owner of the Cyberstorm and so much nonsense was told here the last couple of days that I want to rectify some of the things that were told.
I have been a proud Amiga owner since 1987 and sold my beloved Amiga not because there was something wrong with it but because I recently bought a PC and simply don't have the space to keep two computers. Initially I wanted to sell to complete Micronik/A4000 with all the expansions and software I collected over the years as one lot, basically to be able to show to the buyer that everything was 100% OK and to avoid stupid incidents like this one.
The reason for stripping down the Micronik tower and selling it to Effy (as he already mentioned) was to do him a favor because he couldn't afford to buy the full setup at the time. Effy is a perfectly honest guy and as a favor to me he suggested to help me out and sell some of my remaining hardware.
Even now I am still convinced that there was nothing wrong with the Cyberstorm at the time it was shipped to Germany and that you should have contacted the person you bought it from (that is Effy or me) before starting to disassemble and 'wash' it! A refund at that point would have been absolutely no problem!
Now you got refunded too, but with the difference that I might be stuck with a wrecked Cyberstorm. In the process some people even accused Effy and me of being dishonest and trying to rip you off. This is pitiful to say the least.
I could go on like this for a while, but I'm not going to do that. Instead I hope that Effy can get the Cyberstorm running again (I no longer have an Amiga, so I can’t do it myself) in one of his Amiga’s to prove that you were wrong all the way!!!
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I'm suprised that this whole thread didn't bring any new naked pictures of Effy's girlfriend. I've been wasting my time reading it for nothing! ;-)
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You mean something like this internal scandoubler that I intended to sell on Ebay but instead sold for 50 euro (exc. shipping) to somebody in the UK ???
(http://users.pandora.be/DiscoVmax/Internal_Scand.jpg)
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:pint:
...however, you need some new material. We've already seen that one. :-D
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Sorry. I´m not selling much these days but when I shall get something cool enough then I shall beg my girlfriend to pose for me :lol:
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Meanwhile AmireX has sent the card to Belgium but appearantly not to me but to thw original owner who doesn´t have an Amiga anymore as I bought his one. The additional problem is that the card has been "offered" by TaxiPost on Thursday morning but the original owner was out for work and the next time they come back is next week :-o AmireX wrote me two mails to ask me where to send the card, but due to having done a lot of overtime at work I have replied a day later telling to send it to my own address which is at the bottom of each mail ... later that day I got the message back that he didn´t send it to me like I requested ... and now I still don´t have the card, so with all due respect, this means that I won´t do the refund yet until I have got it. Seems fair to me, doesn´t it :-?
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Yes, yes it all went wrong from the beginning ... I think the card has a bad karma :-o
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I prefer to think that the belgian Post has a bad carma, or never even had one ... :lol:
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Just for your information, the CS MK3 has finally arrived at the seller´s place and he has sent it to me today, so AmireX will get his requested refund. Fair is fair ...
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This matter has already been concluded, but I thought I would share my experinces as well..
I bought a CSMkIII ( new from Vesalia ) for my A3k and it wouldnt boot with the card mounted.. Sent it back for repair, and they had replaced the 060 socket.. Saying that I had to be very careful with it.. :-)
So it seems the socket is a piece of crap, even though it´s made in Germany.. I guess Doomy´s gonna have my head for that remark! :lol:
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So the thread end's here .. and Effy is a honest guy :-). Maybe next time I buy another CSMkIII, but until there I need some more hours of therapy to forget :-o