Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on March 20, 2005, 09:38:07 PM
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One thing that's been made very clear is that all future software development will be brought inhouse. IE Hyperion will NOT be producing OS4.1+.
16:07] what is the future of what we today call the AmigaOS technology? It only has a minor role on the new amiga inc website. Will there be an OS4.1, 4.2,.. etc? Will there be an OS5 based on the current amigaOS codebase (and not amigade/amigaanywhere)?
I think I answered this. We are interested in operating systems. We moved future product developemnt in-house last August. We do not publicly speculate on product development
Unless Bill and Fleecy learned to code in the last 12 months, AmigaOS is dead.
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Unless Bill and Fleecy learned to code in the last 12 months, AmigaOS is dead.
A bloke I worked with in London in 1999/2000 said he worked with a bloke back home in Scotland called "Fleecy Moss", and this Fleecy was a masterful genius at coding.
Whether it's the same fella I dunno.
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mdma wrote:
Unless Bill and Fleecy learned to code in the last 12 months, AmigaOS is dead.
A bloke I worked with in London in 1999/2000 said he worked with a bloke back home in Scotland called "Fleecy Moss", and this Fleecy was a masterful genius at coding.
Whether it's the same fella I dunno.
Sure it's the same guy... you do know that "coding" is Scotish slang for Bullsh1ting, right? ;-)
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For more of the chat
click here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2151&start=100#23074)
Not the transcript, just a cut and paste job from elwood. Readable tho..
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One thing that's been made very clear is that all future software development will be brought inhouse. IE Hyperion will NOT be producing OS4.1+.
Typical, get Hyperion to do the hard work making 4.0, then take it all out of their hands again :-/
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Typical, get Hyperion to do the hard work making 4.0, then take it all out of their hands again :-/
Welj, they do say they will honor Hyperions rights. And AFAIK, it always was the intention to buy back the rights of OS4...
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seer wrote:
Typical, get Hyperion to do the hard work making 4.0, then take it all out of their hands again :-/
Welj, they do say they will honor Hyperions rights. And AFAIK, it always was the intention to buy back the rights of OS4...
If we're lucky they'll buy it back. I read it to mean that OS4.0 will be the absolute end of AmigaOS as we know it. He obviously left it open for interpetation, but it seemed pretty clear to me...
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Sure it's the same guy... you do know that "coding" is Scotish slang for Bullsh1ting, right? ;-)
He had no reason to make it up though. He knew nothing about Amiga's, and up to that point knew nothing about my interest in them either as I'd only just started working with him.
Mark (the scottish bloke) was a Java programmer though, which as everyone knows isn't real programming! ;-)
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If we're lucky they'll buy it back. I read it to mean that OS4.0 will be the absolute end of AmigaOS as we know it. He obviously left it open for interpetation, but it seemed pretty clear to me...
Well.. So far he mentioned Amiga Anywhere, said they didn't call it Amiga DE, brought future OS dev in house (sounds like dev allready started), are using AOS as a base (more or less) for an "Internet OS" (?) that's why they bought a "storage technology" company..
Could mean lots of things..
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mdma wrote:
Sure it's the same guy... you do know that "coding" is Scotish slang for Bullsh1ting, right? ;-)
He had no reason to make it up though. He knew nothing about Amiga's, and up to that point knew nothing about my interest in them either as I'd only just started working with him.
Mark (the scottish bloke) was a Java programmer though, which as everyone knows isn't real programming! ;-)
Java is to programming, what etchasketch is to art...
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Unless Bill and Fleecy learned to code in the last 12 months, AmigaOS is dead.
wegster:
Garry, I'm sure you've presused the forums in preparation for coming here. Is there something you'd like to say to everyone here today that might give some hope, if not
details, for the future as it pertains to AmigaOS, and not just AA?
Garry:
wegster - I think I've done this, several times. We are interested in an "internet" operating system. We support the desktop. We hope OS 4.0 does well. We support AA on AmigaOne. We are proceeding with product development. What else can I say?
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mdma wrote:
Sure it's the same guy... you do know that "coding" is Scotish slang for Bullsh1ting, right? ;-)
He had no reason to make it up though. He knew nothing about Amiga's, and up to that point knew nothing about my interest in them either as I'd only just started working with him.
Mark (the scottish bloke) was a Java programmer though, which as everyone knows isn't real programming! ;-)
C, C++, asm or dead. Nothing else counts. Java is a programming language proper and might be the pinnacle of aspiration for script kiddies, but give me a healthy dose of of the others any day :lol:
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Karlos wrote:
mdma wrote:
Sure it's the same guy... you do know that "coding" is Scotish slang for Bullsh1ting, right? ;-)
He had no reason to make it up though. He knew nothing about Amiga's, and up to that point knew nothing about my interest in them either as I'd only just started working with him.
Mark (the scottish bloke) was a Java programmer though, which as everyone knows isn't real programming! ;-)
C, C++, asm or dead. Nothing else counts. Java is a programming language proper and might be the pinnacle of aspiration for script kiddies, but give me a healthy dose of of the others any day :lol:
Your prose is like poetry to the ears of a geek like me! :-D
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Edited by Admin: Personal Attack & Off-topic
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I can assure you that the future of AmigaOS 4.0 is quite safe and secured back in November of 2001.
Continued development of Amiga OS is certain provided there is sufficient financial return.
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Edited by Admin: Off-topic
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Edited by Admin: Off-topic
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If AmigaOS 4.0 is the end of AmigaOS, why don't release it under GPL and Open Source? Serious, if AmigaOS 4.0 realy goes open source, then maybe someone will make a Macintosh version of it. I think it would be possible to create a Macintosh version of the AmigaOS 4.0, that would work good too, if it only gets open source and GPL. I think that would be the best for AmigaOS, couse i don't think anyone else then the regualar old Amiga users are ready to buy a AmigaONE. In the end, Linux works great on both Macintosh and PC computers, MacOS X is a great operating system and Linux too, and there is many application for Windows XP and MacOS X. The best would be if there would be at least a Macintosh version of AmigaOS 4.0 that would work on the first G3 Mac computers and up. Then, maybe more people would start using AmigaOS, not as their primary OS, but for an alternative to the quite hard Linux.
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Edited by Admin: Personal Attack
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Edited by Admin: Off-Topic
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Edited by Admin: Personal Attack
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I have to agree with your synopsis. It wasn't as though we didn't already know it, but the Amiga desktop platform is dead. All they're doing is pushing the same tired old AmigaDE in a bright new package at people who don't want it.
Though I have no idea what did, or did not happen in reality, I would at least hope Bolton gets paid. I know what it's like to have a former employer screw you out of large sums of money then make up a malicious load of {bleep} about you.
Wayne
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HyperionMP wrote:
I can assure you that the future of AmigaOS 4.0 is quite safe and secured back in November of 2001.
Continued development of Amiga OS is certain provided there is sufficient financial return.
But what about os4.1 and so on?? I think most people are worried that there will be no further versions after OS4 is final.
I am one of those who wont invest in a AmigaONE if AmigaOS ends up being dropped after 4.0.
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@Ben,
That's a very interesting way of saying "OS4 is already in beta so we might as well finish it but we doubt any future releases would ever be done..." Thanks for confirming what Garry said..
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Red,
That's speculation. We don't know what Hyperion's contract covers in reguards to development of Amiga OS 4. It could be just 4.0 or the whole 4.x series. What Amiga, Inc. is working on in house could very well be AOS 5. Which would be sort of consistant with what Amiga, Inc.'s previous management laid out. Granted the grain of salt nature makes this all rather speculative and foggy.
Though I do thing that what Amiga OS 5 (what AI is working on operating systemwise) will be unlike any AOS we've seen. Which gets me abit concerned.
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Though I do thing that what Amiga OS 5 (what AI is working on operating systemwise) will be unlike any AOS we've seen. Which gets me abit concerned.
There's always AROS (http://aros.sf.net) if things do turn out for the worst with OS4.x.
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Red,
That's speculation.
It sure is.
Which would be sort of consistant with what Amiga, Inc.'s previous management laid out.
The old management is the current management.
Though I do thing that what Amiga OS 5 (what AI is working on operating systemwise) will be unlike any AOS we've seen. Which gets me abit concerned.
If anything ever becomes of OS5 before 2010 from the Bill & Fleecy show, track me down wherever I am and I will eat my shoe immediately.
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@Red
Is your shoe Atkins compatible? ;-)
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by HyperionMP on 2005/3/20 17:19:42 I can assure you that the future of AmigaOS 4.0 is quite safe and secured back in November of 2001. Continued development of Amiga OS is certain provided there is sufficient financial return.
Alot of us, I think, are more concerned about 4.1. Will ther e be further development in the Amiga OS 4.x series, given sufficient finacial returns, beyond Amiga OS 4.0? If so, will that be done by Hyperion or Amiga, Inc.?
We're just feeling alittle insecure about the future of Amiga OS is all and would like some reassurance.
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@Argo
That's speculation. We don't know what Hyperion's contract covers in reguards to development of Amiga OS 4. It could be just 4.0 or the whole 4.x series.
The voice of reason.
@redrumloa
I've always liked you, and you're one of the best dealers I've ever dealt with -- but what's happened to you? Your posts lately have become so "negative" (both here, and especially at AW) -- I don't know what the problem is, but hopefully they'll get worked out -- I miss the old red.
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@redrumloa
I've always liked you, and you're one of the best dealers I've ever dealt with -- but what's happened to you? Your posts lately have become so "negative" (both here, and especially at AW) -- I don't know what the problem is, but hopefully they'll get worked out -- I miss the old red.
I'm sorry if I seem so negative. A certain person really got under my skin...
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I also am seeing alot of negativity in the market, if you want more specifics email me, I'll happily elaborate. I need to cool my postings for the day though....
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by Wayne on 2005/3/20 18:50:23 @Ben, That's a very interesting way of saying "OS4 is already in beta so we might as well finish it but we doubt any future releases would ever be done..." Thanks for confirming what Garry said..
That's one way to look at it. Then again he just stated an obvious plain truth. Like the TV show will stay on the air as long as it recieve sufficent Nelson ratings. Well, of course it will. That's how business works. Though what is sufficent?
I'm seeing quite abit of saying something without really saying anything. Which leads to alot of reading inbetween the lines. Which doesn't help as some people use microscopes. All it gets you is a distorted version of what may be the truth.
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Argo wrote:
Like the TV show will stay on the air as long as it recieve sufficent Nelson ratings.
(http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/town/thumbnails/NelsonHahaThumb.gif)
(http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/town/thumbnails/NelsonHahaThumb.gif)
(http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/gallery/town/thumbnails/NelsonHahaThumb.gif)
"This post gets three Nelsons. Ha, ha!"
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Prrrpppppft! :lol
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mdma wrote:
Though I do thing that what Amiga OS 5 (what AI is working on operating systemwise) will be unlike any AOS we've seen. Which gets me abit concerned.
There's always AROS (http://aros.sf.net) if things do turn out for the worst with OS4.x.
Aros is still a very long way from being usable for the average user.. It badly needs needs some networking and apps like browser(s), irc clients, mail and so on.. Basicly all that you can use it for today, is running demos and maybe uae.
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Tomas wrote:
mdma wrote:
Though I do thing that what Amiga OS 5 (what AI is working on operating systemwise) will be unlike any AOS we've seen. Which gets me abit concerned.
There's always AROS (http://aros.sf.net) if things do turn out for the worst with OS4.x.
Aros is still a very long way from being usable for the average user.. It badly needs needs some networking and apps like browser(s), irc clients, mail and so on.. Basicly all that you can use it for today, is running demos and maybe uae.
AROS has networking already, with support for NE2000/Realtek and 3com network cards. It has Mosaic browser which isn't very good to be honest, but AWeb APL is on it's way.
Running demo's? Which ones? I haven't seen any demo's for AROS. I know there is one to be released soon, but AFAIK there are none currently. MPlayer is coming soon too.
If just half of the effort that was put into OS4 ports of apps was put into a quick port to x86-AROS, then the amount of apps available would be a lot more healthy. It's not as though it takes much effort to port to the same API is it! ;-)
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Running demo's? Which ones? I haven't seen any demo's for AROS. I know there is one to be released soon, but AFAIK there are none currently. MPlayer is coming soon too.
This is taken from the AROS site itself: i386-linux-system
The hosted version for Linux/i386. This is the most complete and mature port, which means that you can run all included programs and demos with it. This archive contains all AROS system binaries compiled from the CVS tree.
And i have also seen a video demo of aros running some small gfx demos, which i believe i also downloaded from the AROS site some months ago.
It didnt have networking added the last time i checked, but i think it is very good news that it is added now.
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Ahhh... I understand now. Those demos, I thought you meant these (http://ada.planet-d.net/) kind of demos! :-D
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Wayne wrote:
That's a very interesting way of saying "OS4 is already in beta so we might as well finish it but we doubt any future releases would ever be done..." Thanks for confirming what Garry said..
Nothing could be further from the truth.
To the extent Garry even said this (which I doubt), the fact remains that future revisions of Amiga OS 4 are a certainty provided there are sufficient sales of Amiga OS 4.0 for Hyperion to cover its development costs.
Hyperion developed OS 4.0 without any substantial support from Amiga Inc. I fail to see why suddenly this support would be required to develop subsequent versions of the OS.
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I went to bed fuming last night after that IRC session. I'm still very annoyed. There was just one question that everybody wanted an answer to: does AmigaOS have a future. He was asked several times, but he just wouldn't answer it.
But today, after Hyperion's posts, we know that "OS4.0" will be finished and Hyperion will develop "future revisions", note: not future versions because Amiga Inc will develop "FUTURE versions" (Hare's words) in-house.
So, for me the situation is an unclear as ever. I think that unless some clarity is provided then this will harm sales of OS4. Just who is going to buy AmigaOS when Amiga Inc keeps harping on about an unrelated technology that they've slapped the Amiga branding on, and developing future versions themselves, but won't define where this future version starts nor what it'll consist of, and when Hyperion will be developing future "revisions" (what does that mean? Bugfixes?).
As for "AmigaAnywhere", this is a 5-year old failed idea re-hashed! Why? Even 5 years ago the idea was risky, although had potential with the beginning of the mobile market. Today, this market is established - all the big players have seats at the table. Their ideas on AmigaAnywhere also seem rather un-specific - mobile games? Internet OS? What?
I'm disappointed, angry, and bewildered... for the at least 5th year we face yet more total uncertainty. I am fed up of all of this. Someone needs to produce a concise statement of WTF is going here, or else this disaster is going to turn into yet another exodus of Amiga users to the Mac or Linux.
smithy
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One has to be asking, why DEad now? We all know it was a complete failure, years ago, but why would anyone with an ounce of brains attempt to fly this wounded turkey? If we all know this as a given, what profit motive is there behind this? Could it be he smells quick and dirty VC investment before he rolls everything over to yet a new shell corporation? He already knows the phone industry pass it up five years ago with a "no thanks" response so that's out back when DE was just sort of out of date. He knows by sales numbers, not many of us give a rat's rearend five years ago, even less today. So who is left to get money from?
Dammy
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@smithy
Ben just said it all really. AmigaOS as we know it will be continued as long as we can sustain ourselves as a market. We may grow, we may shrink, but what Amiga Inc. does with their "AmigaOS" has nothing to do with us.
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Okay, so it´s about time OS4 gets finished and we can all start buying it so Hyperion gets paid and they can start working on the next revision :)
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@HyperionMP
Are future revisions of AmigaOS 4 developed by Hyperion or Amiga Inc?
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AFAIK, Amiga Inc are concentrating on Amiga Anywhere and Hyperion are developing AmigaOS.
I would suspect, in the future, that they would converge so that AmigaOS can run Amiga Anywhere programs. We need Java etc to do that.
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To the extent Garry even said this (which I doubt), the fact remains that future revisions of Amiga OS 4 are a certainty provided there are sufficient sales of Amiga OS 4.0 for Hyperion to cover its development costs.
Ben,
Now I know, or at least give you the benefit of doubt, that you're not stupid enough to sit here trying to convince everyone that you can continue to write OS4.x (or OS4 boing bag x) on sales of approximately a thousand units (or even two thousand for that matter). Especially since you -- or Amiga Inc -- already gave away OS4 to motherboard purchasers.
Face it. There is no market left. The Mac Mini killed your price point, and the Amiga PPC machine (as I said and was crucified for in 2001) has no external market left to sell to other than a couple thousand devoted fans. For all intents and purposes, it is a dead-end platform and this has been pretty well confirmed by the evasion of Garry Hare to answer the question without dancing around it.
I wish you and the others involved the very best. I really, sincerely do, but anyone who wants to pretend differently is just doing this as a hobby, and that's an eventual dead-end in itself. I should know. I've run this site as a hobby for the last 10 years.
Wayne
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@Wayne
A lot more than 1000 people are "interested" in OS4 (as evidenced by 4000+ downloads of the new OS4 video in the last two days ).
Once OS4 is released, a lot of us will take a more serious look at it (most of us do NOT want to be beta-testers!).
At that point, Hyperion can get back to porting games, where there IS potential for a small profit -- and the SAME users can be marketed to again & again.
Hyperion's only real crime has been being overly optimistic about how long it would take to port an entire operating system versus porting a game.
It's a long shot, but Hyperion has been willing to take it -- forget the "Chicken Little" routine and let's see how it plays out.
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It's a long shot, but Hyperion has been willing to take it -- forget the "Chicken Little" routine and let's see how it plays out.
At 10 years of waiting to see how it "plays out", watching the world pass it by (as I stated would happen in 2001) and being beaten up from every angle for my trouble, I'm pretty much out of interest.
Oh, and your comment measuring interest by the "4000 people who downloaded the video" is erroneous as well. I have absolutely zero interest in buying OS4 or the AmigaOne and I watched it just to see what it was about. Had to download it 3 times to get it to actually play right, and surely I'm not the only one. Perhaps you should actually do a grep on the log to see how many individuals have watched it and I'll bet your 4000 is going to be (astonishingly enough) less than 1500 to 2000 people...
Even granting you 2000, if each of those buys a copy of OS4.x (to go with their outdated, overpriced motherboard) (I say 4.x because 4.0 is free with the board) then that's only $100,000. Far short of the amount it would take to hire 4 or 5 competent programmers.
Wayne
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Even granting you 2000, if each of those buys a copy of OS4.x (to go with their outdated, overpriced motherboard) (I say 4.x because 4.0 is free with the board) then that's only $100,000. Far short of the amount it would take to hire 4 or 5 competent programmers.
Numbers can be so terribly cruel at times...
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Klesterjr kibitzed:
A lot more than 1000 people are "interested" in OS4 (as evidenced by 4000+ downloads of the new OS4 video in the last two days ).
Once OS4 is released, a lot of us will take a more serious look at it (most of us do NOT want to be beta-testers!).
;-) Count me among those who are very interested in AmigaOS 4, while not willing to be a beta tester. Not that I object to playing with the OS that much sooner, it's just that I wouldn't be much help to the team....
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@Wayne
I downloaded it in one go -- maybe there was something wrong with your connection?
Even so, 2000 x $100 (what Hyperion gets from each copy of OS4) is $200,000 (not $100,000) -- which is still a big loss, no question -- but that has nothing to do with what I said, now does it?
I thought my post was clear, but I guess not -- so, rather than reiterate my point, I'll just move along.
Have a nice day. :-)
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I already made my hardware exodus to the PC many years ago, it's cheap affordable, and runs all of my old stuff very very well..
As for my OS exodus.. Today I am putting a copy of AROS on one of my machines for good and I plan to stick with that, because it's a community supported product. I am not stuck with the motives of a profit-minded CEO..
Personally though, this is my thoughts on this.. If we look at OS 3.9 and OS 4.0 they were developed by different organizations.. The strategy of having someone else develop a later version of Amiga Inc.'s OS (which might be an OS not even related to current development and hardware) isn't unreasonable considering many companies adopt this kind of strategy.
Amiga Inc. being a viable company has every right to come up with a totally new product and go off in a different direction. It's how you stay in business. I refer to my Amiga computers that I own as Commodore-Amigas.. Because the reality of it, is they were computers made by Commodore that run an OS that was Commodore's design.
You can't blame Mr. Hare for wanting his own company and his own direction. It's a normal business motive.. Don't get stuck in 1985 folks. It's hard to let go of something you love, but sometimes you need to take a look at your spot in the world, and see if it's competitive or that it's viable today. The platform has weathered the storms and as long as people are still using it there will be a reason to talk about it and celebrate it's capabilities.
If you go to Atari.org you will notice there is a lot of people there still involved because they like that technology. They aren't bemoaning the fact that Atari label is now with a games company and the company that made the atari ST is no more..
I think the community can learn from that example and it's still very popular websites and community supported hardware.
@pjhutch: okay silly question why does Amiga need Java.. Microsoft's .Net is proof and Amiga Anywhere is further proof that you can do all of that yourself and build your own virtual machine.. Java YUCK!
-Don
PS Did Commodore try to make money off of selling the OS other than upgrading it? NO! They sold incredible hardware for it's time and provided a decent OS for that hardware.. Did they loose money off of the OS? Most certainly.. Their situation is very unlike today. Amiga is nothing but a brand, who needs to make money? Hyperion and Eyetech, does Amiga need to make money? If someone came out with a compatible OS that ran on the A1 hardware that ran the software they wouldn't even "need" the name Amiga to get customers.. You can't call it Amiga, but can you really say AInc. has much to do with the product (besides the license) anyway?? I think Mr. Hare is very smart to bring whatever they do back "in house".. it's a company directional issue..Maybe he will in essence create a new OS for mobile computing, the internet etc. and call it the "AmigaOS" that has nothing to do with the computer that this board is all about. It's well within their rights, and that's what I took that whole conversation to mean.
smithy wrote:
I'm disappointed, angry, and bewildered... for the at least 5th year we face yet more total uncertainty. I am fed up of all of this. Someone needs to produce a concise statement of WTF is going here, or else this disaster is going to turn into yet another exodus of Amiga users to the Mac or Linux.
smithy
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Quixote wrote:
Not that I object to playing with the OS that much sooner, it's just that I wouldn't be much help to the team....
Well, given the way work etc is going, I've been as much use as a chocolate teapot for the last few months :-(
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A lot more than 1000 people are "interested" in OS4 (as
evidenced by 4000+ downloads of the new OS4 video in the
last two days ).
I've downloaded that video too, but I can assure you, I will never buy an AmigaONE to run AOS4. Like me, there are so many others...
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falemagn wrote:
I've downloaded that video too, but I can assure you, I will never buy an AmigaONE to run AOS4. Like me, there are so many others...
Same here, I downloaded the video. While OS4 looks impressive, no way at all I would buy an A1 motherboard. I think you will find that with most downloaders. Interest in OS4, but zero interest in A1.
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I am sadly neither amazed or even surprised that after what must be at least one year away from all things Amiga I return for a quick check and see that practically nothing has changed.
What a waste! :-(
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falemagn wrote:
A lot more than 1000 people are "interested" in OS4 (as
evidenced by 4000+ downloads of the new OS4 video in the
last two days ).
I've downloaded that video too, but I can assure you, I will never buy an AmigaONE to run AOS4. Like me, there are so many others...
It is a waste! every good coder is welcome in the OS4/A1 comunity!
For me A1 is very good (with a sil or the fix), expensive yes... but older Amigas were expensive as well. A1 is one my best buy ever.
I hope you change your mind in the future, or that another hardware solutions will be able to run OS4... so you all can join the party.
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@Wayne
The same for the opposite. A lot of people interested in OS4 haven't dowloaded the video as well.
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bhoggett wrote:
I am sadly neither amazed or even surprised that after what must be at least one year away from all things Amiga I return for a quick check and see that practically nothing has changed.
What a waste! :-(
It's like the twilight zone!
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@Ben
"To the extent Garry even said this (which I doubt), the fact remains that future revisions of Amiga OS 4 are a certainty provided there are sufficient sales of Amiga OS 4.0 for Hyperion to cover its development costs"
So you're continue to develop it till AmigaOS4.999999(9) ?
Few would be as satisfied as me if AmigaOS4 succeded on PPC but AInc. is killing it. What do they mean with taking development inhouse ?
And this without talking about when he mentioned "filter developers". Same as Genesi, they're just using us but at least they should have the moral of giving something back.
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mdma wrote:
It's like the twilight zone!
More like a stasis chamber. Frightening, really.
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@Ben
You should drop the name and continue it with a different name if that's possible.
It's the only solution I see.
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More like a stasis chamber. Frightening, really.
What is the old Who classic line, "New Boss, same as the old Boss"?
Dammy
Didn't bother to download OS4 video
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Jose wrote:
@Ben
You should drop the name and continue it with a different name if that's possible.
It's the only solution I see.
Oh I can see the flame wars between the Red and Blue trolls if that ever happened!!
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My interpretion of the comments made in the IRC chat is that Gary Hare's primary interest in Amiga OS is for some Internet enabled set top box or something of that sort. Clearly, Amiga on the desktop is not a priority. However, it would seem they have an interest in supporting the Amiga desktop as a platform as long as it doesn't cost them much. Since modern set top boxes have a lot of the same OS needs as a desktop this isn't unreasonable (of course my set top box speculation could be entirely wrong). This does mean that there will probably be very few advancements that benefit the desktop unless they benefit the set top box (or whatever market Mr. Hare has in mind) or they come from Hyperion.
Hyperion's role in the future of Amiga OS is not entirely clear. The details of their agreement with Amiga Inc. have neve been made public. Comments made in this thread and in the IRC chat seem to suggest that they have some legal ability to enhance OS 4 beyond the initial release.
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MskoDestny wrote:
Comments made in this thread and in the IRC chat seem to suggest that they have some legal ability to enhance OS 4 beyond the initial release.
I hope so. Frankly, I don't trust Amiga Inc's ability to pour pee out of a boot with clear instructions on the heel.
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dammy wrote:
What is the old Who classic line, "New Boss, same as the old Boss"?
I think pretty much everyone with any sense knew that back then, but it's not just about the new/old Amiga Inc. Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time. Nothing has changed, nothing's moved on or evolved at all. You could cut and paste any old thread from the past four years into a thread on the same subject today and it would still make perfect sense. It would be virtually impossible to tell the comments were years apart.
I came back to see what was new on the scene after being away for so long, and the conclusion is "nothing". It's so sad.
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mdma wrote:
A bloke I worked with in London in 1999/2000 said he worked with a bloke back home in Scotland called "Fleecy Moss", and this Fleecy was a masterful genius at coding.
Whether it's the same fella I dunno.
Fleecy is not a programmer, in fact he's really not that technically competant as anyone who's had a long conversation about real technology with him will tell you. In fact anyone who attended Amiga Inc kickoff developer meeting at the Gateway show will tell you that Fleecy didn't have a good grasp of what they were trying to do and how the companies they were trying to emulate really did business.
-Tig
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Karlos wrote:
I hope so. Frankly, I don't trust Amiga Inc's ability to pour pee out of a boot with clear instructions on the heel.
:roflmao: :laugh:
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by bhoggett on 2005/3/21 11:58:50
Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time.
As far as AROS is concerned, I hope by the end of this year, you will retract that statement. :-)
Dammy
TeamAROS
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As far as AROS is concerned, I hope by the end of this year, you will retract that statement. :-)
Which offcourse could also have been c&ped out of a 2004 or 2003 thread......
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AmigaOS4 has also advanced prett much.. Not AIncs. merit though..
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Donny,
I don't doubt that it's Amiga Inc's name and they can do whatever makes them money. I really wish they would get off their ass and come up with something that WOULD make money but for {bleep}'s sake... If they'd just stop dicking the community around (to include giving vague non-committal answers -- admitting the fact that they have no interest in the desktop platform) "moving out of 1985" would be a hell of a lot easier for most folks.
Hell, if we KNEW (for the fact that it is) that all this future PPC crap was just crap, we could all ignore it and get back to supporting the real Amiga computer rather than tearing each other apart from one scam company to the next.
It's been 10 years of this crap, 5 years with the exact same people trying to squeeze blood out our little turnips (so to speak) and I'm basically just at a point where I wanna grab one of them shake hell out of em, and say "for once, in your {bleep}ing life, tell the truth!" Reading the transcript from Garry was worse than trying to figure out how exactly Dubya and his family are profiting from the war in the middle east (and they are).
Wayne
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@Wayne
I agreed with you 100% up until this point.
Reading the transcript from Garry was worse than trying to figure out how exactly Dubya and his family are profiting from the war in the middle east (and they are).
DOH! :smack:
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So... Last five years have been just a bad dream.. It's AmigaDE time again?
A-inc can have their De... I'm not going to get involved anynore.
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redrumloa wrote:
@Wayne
I agreed with you 100% up until this point.
Reading the transcript from Garry was worse than trying to figure out how exactly Dubya and his family are profiting from the war in the middle east (and they are).
DOH! :smack:
Ok, so maybe it wasn't quite THAT bad, but it was surely full of vague doubletalk. Very Dubya in my opinion, but yes, off-topic the Bush family is making money (they're oil people remember?)
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A-inc can have their De... I'm not going to get involved anynore.
Agreed! Thank god i didnt run out and get an A1 like I was planning to. However, if KMOS / Ainc want to sell STB's and generate income for the Amiga OS then thats cool, i mean any money is good money right?
I smell.... (sniff sniff sniff)... Bull$hit.
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by Kronos on 2005/3/21 12:19:49
hich offcourse could also have been c&ped out of a 2004 or 2003 thread......
The words, yes, the advancement that is being talked about (and hopefully work will begin 2H of 05) is pretty radical departure from current status quoa among AOS/MOS/AROS systems, AFAIK.
Dammy
TeamAROS
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I am sure glad I didn't buy this thing. Love Amgia but...all this time and we still can't get a straight answer.. Same old thing. More double talk with no real answers to the questins that matter to us.
Viva AROS...
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dammy wrote:
by Kronos on 2005/3/21 12:19:49
hich offcourse could also have been c&ped out of a 2004 or 2003 thread......
The words, yes, the advancement that is being talked about (and hopefully work will begin 2H of 05) is pretty radical departure from current status quoa among AOS/MOS/AROS systems, AFAIK.
Dammy
TeamAROS
Which advancement(s) are these?
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bhoggett wrote:
Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time. Nothing has changed, nothing's moved on or evolved at all.
Saying that AROS is frozen in time is a little harsh. Comparing it to molasses in January might be appropriate, but it is moving. It finally has a TCP/IP stack and a working browser, the lack of which really limited my interest before and surely others were in the same boat.
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Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time. Nothing has changed, nothing's moved on or evolved at all.
I think you might have just hit on the very obvious cause of everyone's frustrations. The small movements we have seen have been hit by huge setbacks and soap opera moments all around.
Speaking solely from my perspective, the continual lack of progress, lies, and drama does tend to add tedium to supporting the ever-degrading Amiga community. All of which could be resolved by one single, honest, non-duplicitous conversation from the company that everyone's busy playing sheep to.
My point is, if Amiga Inc wants to move on, that's their right and more power to them, but they should have the cahones to straight up say "this is this and that is that" so that all these drama-driven people can move on with whatever comes next.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time. Nothing has changed, nothing's moved on or evolved at all.
I think you might have just hit on the very obvious cause of everyone's frustrations. The small movements we have seen have been hit by huge setbacks and soap opera moments all around.
Speaking solely from my perspective, the continual lack of progress, lies, and drama does tend to add tedium to supporting the ever-degrading Amiga community. All of which could be resolved by one single, honest, non-duplicitous conversation from the company that everyone's busy playing sheep to.
My point is, if Amiga Inc wants to move on, that's their right and more power to them, but they should have the cahones to straight up say "this is this and that is that" so that all these drama-driven people can move on with whatever comes next.
Wayne
Me personally, I'd like for OS4 to succeed and continue, but I won't be that bothered if it doesn't. I've got my retro 90's amiga hardware hobby, and I'll still have my hobby if hyperion and ainc disappeared in a cloud of smoke.
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All I can say is that after the great many years of waiting, I have no expectations any more.
At one time I had a great affinity with everything Amiga. Now I remember fondly an old friend who has long since gone away. I doubt I will ever feel that way about any piece of technology again.
With my current outlook, I have been surprised by how positive I have felt about recent announcements and progress. With the AROS-Max distro, with AROS tcp, with the (imo) fantastic OS4 video, with me discovering Paihia is in development, with the announcement of the Open Office project, I have even almost wondered if a momentum was building.
With having no expectations, the above has all been seen as bonuses to me.
I may be mad, but I will most likely still buy the A1 hardware and OS4 when (if) complete.
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@JoannaK
Are you blind? Didn't you read the transcript? It's not DE, It's call AmigaAnywhere! :-D
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My point is, if Amiga Inc wants to move on, that's their right and more power to them, but they should have the cahones to straight up say "this is this and that is that"
It's so vague on the future I wonder if they have a plan at all. I suspect there's something political going on.
I notice Ben isn't talking about OS4 beyond 4.0 and tempering that with "if it makes money" I expect it's making something but not much...
My guess is Amiga inc. are not the least bit interested in OS4 and don't have any plans for OS5, but I don't think they're just going to give away the rights.
Why the interest in DE?
Probably because 674 million phones were sold *last year*.
To put it into perspective, the size of the Amiga market is not even 1/100,000 of a % of that.
It's a wonder they don't just give away the rights to OS4...
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minatorb wrote:
Why the interest in DE?
Probably because 674 million phones were sold *last year*.
Granted, but;
1) Why continue to screw over the loyal Commodore Amiga base with vague, non-descript, non-committal answers? You would think it's specifically just for their amusement at this point since they obviously want nothing to do with the community.
2) Why do they think they (of all people) have a single snowball's chance in hell in such a market already saturated with better options. Hell, they're even competing against the company that's providing their own software for them (Tao's Intent). Between Eyetech reselling the Teron and Amiga Inc reselling a rebadged Intent, there's not a single original thought floating in their region of space.
3) Why call this new cellphone OS "Amiga" when it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the historic platform? I *can* see a games company called Atari, because Atari did have games, but the Amiga never had jack to do with cellphones.
All of this has nothing to do with "the sky is falling". The Amiga sky took a nosedive in 2001 when everyone decided that overpriced, underpowered, closed-ended hardware was forced on everyone by "Fleecy" and guys who port (not write) games for a living.
I'm not saying OS4 won't be good, but unless they're planning to do an OS4 version 1.0, 1.1, 1.xyz, the platform is dead, not that it ever had much of a life.
Wayne
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@ All
I dont see why it's all doom and gloom.
Really, most of you are just speculating as to what AI have said.
It seemed pretty clear to me to be quite honest.
Garry has said he is very interested in the OS and it will be moving In House for future versions.
To me that means, well, future versions.
Being In House could mean ANYTHING.
The thing is, none of you have any idea on what that means because Gary is not going to tell you. It would only be speculation.
To be quite blunt, he shouldn't have to, and I bet that Hyperion won't tell you either. If they were going to tell you every little thing, Gary would have but as he said himself, no matter how creative you get at asking the question, he's not going to answer it, so seriously, stop asking.
Hyperion AI and whoever else may or may not be involved all have signed contracts that probably have some sort of non disclosure terms otherwise they would openly talk about it.
Gary has said, he's not going to talk, same with Hyperion, leave it at that. He has said the OS will continue and lots is going to happen including multi user, 3d and some sort of Internet conective interatcion etc..
You people need to stop going around saying, it's dead, no more Hyperion etc or Micorsoft have bought it or SUN or IBM, perhaps Apple are going to make it into the next I Pod. Come on, seriously, I think even you can now see just how silly all this is. Unless you have it in writing from Gary himself, which you don't, your only guessing at something you really have no idea on.
Let's all stop all this heresay now, Gary is at the helm, he is creating the AMIGA OS with whoever he chooses and is going to deliver on his promises. So far he hasn't let anyone down and has kept promises even down to trivial T-Shirts promised by former owners of now HIS company.
Let it be. The future will tell. I think it's going to be a good one, at last we have someone at the helm who is making progress, after all, we have all seen OS4 in sertan stages, it will continue, if you want to speculate eat this one...Perhaps Hyperion are going to become part of AI
The thing is, you just have no idea what's going on behind closed doors and you shouldn't unless you sign the contract too.
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Perhaps Hyperion are going to become part of AI
I have to admit, that thought has crossed my mind. Rogue said something on AW.net that got me thinking, after redrumloa said amigaos was dead inhouse at a company with no programmers.
Programmers can be hired. Does that concept surprise you?
Who else could Amiga Inc hire to develop their OS in house? Morphos Team? ;-)
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@Wayne
"I'm not saying OS4 won't be good, but unless they're planning to do an OS4 version 1.0, 1.1, 1.xyz, the platform is dead, not that it ever had much of a life."
-----------------------------------------------------------
I joined this forum because I thought it was pro Amiga. I
realize now I was wrong. :-(
You can't seriously think that a man that's using IRC, problably for the first time, can give you detailed answers
to questions in a 1 or 2 line response!
Hyperion has stated in this tread that they would continue to develop OS4 if it was financially possible. What part of that statement didn't you understand?
In-house doesn't mean a physical move, but a logistic move to co-ordinate businesss plans & makes perfect sense to me.
If AI is destroying the Amiga, their getting plenty of help from the naysayers on this forum.
Greetings to all true Amiga lovers.
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@sundown,
You're right. I'm sorry. I've only been dealing with this and trying to support the Amiga community for 10 years. Five of which have been spent apparently suspended in time. I've heard the same promises and "plans" SOOOO many times now, it's far too easy to be skeptical.
The Amiga earned my respect in 1997. Amiga Inc (in any reiteration) has yet to do so and the game of musical chairs going on with the IP and Amiga Inc hasn't changed a single thing in five years.
As such, I cannot hear yet another telling of the same {bleep} "plans" and vague non-responsive answers without feeling overwhelmingly -- I mean vehemently overwhelmingly -- skeptical.
Yes, I'm ranting, and yes, I've lost my damned mind, but I'm just frustrated beyond belief at the prospect of YET ANOTHER year of nothing. While perhaps not dead, I firmly believe the AmigaOne platform is dead-ended, and everything Ben has said has only served to confirm that fact.
I will refrain from commenting further on the Amiga situation, but that really, really, really leaves me little to talk about any more. Very sad. Alas to say I would personally have preferred Gateway to have sat on the trademarks and done nothing with them than to see the community have to go through yet another year of this same garbage.
Wayne
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@sundown
yeah, what you said. I don't understand all the doom and gloom either. Those that don't want to buy an A1 or uA1 probably aren't even using their old 68k amigas on this forum. If Hyperion releases OS4 say... next month, full version, it will create a stir and people will buy it and the hardware to run it. Of course sales are limited to developers and beta tester types right now but that is sure to pick up after launch. I personally think a uA1 m/b is a lot more interesting than a lousy miniMac cube (er.....sorry Wayne). Go Hyperion & Eyetech!!!!
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@ Wayne
Easy now, I understand your frustrations, and rightly so, but we all are frustrated. Most of us have old AMIGA hardware that's failing and really hard to fix. Most of us don't have the knowledge or access to people that do to fix it either.
It's all really dishartening haging on to a thread that keeps seeming to get shorter and thinner.
Unfortunatly, this is the process and I have learned to accpect it. Companies are not going to disclose all of their plans and ideas for future products. Gary really has said quite a bit in his posts, yes it is just words, but it's also HIS company. He didn't have to say anything at all really.
He seems like a good person, we all have seen some of the fruits of his leadership in the form of the OS4 development continuing to press forward, new Hardware platforms etc even T-Shirts promised by former company owners.
He really hasn't let anyone down yet and he is telling people like yourself and me that it's going to continue.
It's a waiting game. I don't think anyone here is going to dissagree with you that it's frustrating because it is. That's why he jumped on IRC in the first place. To try and let everyone know, it's all still hapening, but he's not going to give the game away.
We need to have faith in him now that he's in controll untill he lets us down I guess, only if he does mind you! then we can make another choice I guess.
I for one am really glad that you and others have a site like this to get info from Gary and others ;)
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Mr Hare (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2167) speaks some more. without the stupid IRC bots cutting him off.
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They should have developed OS 4.0 for x86 systems, all else, in my view, is a waste of time. Since the A1 boards have no custom chips, or Amiga specific parts anyway, why not provide the ease and coolness of the workbench, to a population that makes up probably 95% of the computer users worldwide, via x86 platform? I just don't get it, especially after how well amithlon was going, UAE emulation etc....
As far as buying an A1, why would you? You can buy any micro mobo and run amithlon or windows with amiga forever or something and get a whole setup for way cheaper. I could see if A1 was revolutionary....but it isn't.
Just my 2 cents, and yes, I own an Amiga.
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Hyperion has stated in this tread that they would continue to develop OS4 if it was financially possible. What part of that statement didn't you understand?
Oh, he understands. He just doesn't think that it is a finacially viable endevor. Sales of Amiga OS 4.0 have to pay for development of 4.1. What ever number of sales that is, he just doesn't feel that there will be enough sales to reach it. Mr. Hare did state that there needed to be about 2000 sales to finace the voucher deal. So, that sounds like a good target number as any. Will there be enough sale to continue development, I won't even hazard a guess. Mainly, because I feel the community has a rather unknown amount of dark matter.
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Hey, just thought you all might wanna know. Mr. Hare has made some new POST IRC discussion comments on amigaworld.net.. It looks like we all have nothing to fear with OS4 or the AmigaOne after all..
Gary Hare Further Comments (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2167)
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You really should read the follow-up in AmigaWorld.net news. IRC 'interview' sucked badly, but he's addressed most issues.
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I think he just siad it all over again personally.
It's a pretty good show of character on his behalf to take all this crap, shove it aside and even potentially break a NDA in some fashion.
Thanks Gary, if you take just one thing out of all of this, you could say, at least the people who await your product are really passionate about it.
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Donny,
It was not my intention to promote fear regarding either OS4 or the AmigaOne. Simply to vent my frustration at the disclosure that we're EXACTLY where we were four years ago. I'm quite sure that both the a1 and OS4 will arrive, but... No one yet (not even Ben) can firmly state that the A1/PPC platform will carry on past 4.0.
It's all about numbers -- as it should be -- and to be frank, the numbers simply aren't there (for many reasons including in-fighting and the fact that there is no real development base to make the A1 purchase attract ANYONE from outside this dwindling community).
Garry himself puts the number at 2000, which I'm fairly certain could be reached by a stretch, but beyond that...
I digress though, you tricked me into speaking out again.. Darn you... :)
Wayne
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<--- smiles at Wayne with an EVIL GRIN >:-)
Wayne: it's great when you speak out.. It's usually needed..
-Don
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I can understand the frustration, but sometimes we get to focused on what we hold dear. Understand that AI, Eyetech, & Hyperion know they could never make it producing desktops alone. Garry said that, but that's not what we wanted to hear. AI is looking at the embedded cpu control market. This was the reasoning behind the µA1 line, not desktops.
If AI can swing deals in that market, they could sell thousands of boards with the OS. This is were AA comes in & makes sense in that market setting.
Garry is a smart guy & if he is successful with his goals, the Amiga desktop will benefit as well.
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klesterjr: At that point, Hyperion can get back to porting games, where there IS potential for a small profit -- and the SAME users can be marketed to again & again.
Didn't they have to take a few breaks from working on OS4 and do other projects?
Wayne: Why continue to screw over the loyal Commodore Amiga base with vague, non-descript, non-committal answers? You would think it's specifically just for their amusement at this point since they obviously want nothing to do with the community.
Except take whatever cash they can get.
The only thing I find more surprising than the fact they released hardware with no software, is the fact that people actually bought it. In many ways, people in the Amiga community are begging to be misled. Nobody with sense buys hardware before a [reasonably verifyable] release date is set for the software.
Actually, that's not quite true. What I really find more surprising than the hardware, is that some people say they bought an AmigaOne to support the Amiga. It is Amiga's responsibility to support themselves until they release a complete product, not a mere piece.
SHADES: Being In House could mean ANYTHING.
Yes, but how many "in-house" products have Amiga Inc. released in the last six years? A cheezy game pack? That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
Also, I'm still confused about what is meant by in-house. Here's something from the IRC chat (quoted by Elwood):
smithy:
what is the future of what we today call the AmigaOS technology? It only has a minor role on the new amiga inc website. Will there be an OS4.1, 4.2,.. etc? Will there be an OS5 based on the current amigaOS codebase (and not amigade/amigaanywhere)?
GarryH:
I think I answered this. We are interested in operating systems. We moved future product developemnt in-house last August. We do not publicly speculate on product development.
Given that the question was about future development of AmigaOS, this does seem to imply that "operating systems", and not AA, has been moved in-house, since their Tao-based platform always has been in-house.
However, in that follow-up interview, this was posted:
2. Does Hyperion (I refer to AmigaOne Partners) have the right to extend OS 4.0 to say 4.1?
Yes they do. In fact, for you conspiracy theorists, that is the wrong question. Disclosing details of exactly what this means is confidential. Bottom line - they do have that right and I hope this comment doesn't violate our NDA.
Excuse me? Future versions of operating systems will be done in-house, but Hyperion will still do the work and they call the shots about what will and won't be done? Does that mean Hyperion is considered in-house, or does it mean Amiga is planing to do their own OS (5.x) that isn't based on OS4?
If all of this is my mis-interpretation, what, exactly, did Garry mean with that comment that future development has been moved in-house? Future development of what?
I didn't think these interviews were any help at all, especially since most questions ended up with (to paraphrase), "our partners are doing their work, we're doing ours, and we have NDAs over everything."
WTF? :-?
SHADES: To be quite blunt, he shouldn't have to, and I bet that Hyperion won't tell you either.
Yes, they both should -- if they expect people to acutally buy their products.
A company is nothing without its reputation.
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@ Wayne
Have you used Amiga OS 4.0 yet? You will like it.
:-)
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sundown wrote:
I joined this forum because I thought it was pro Amiga. I
realize now I was wrong. :-(
It's fairly simple, really. Amiga.org is for the realists, those who understand that the Amiga was a fun little computer in the past, or those who simply like the simple programming model so they can test out ideas before moving them to more complex environments. They resent the situation which is currently gripping the platform (much like that poor vegetating Terry Schiavo): the computer is braindead, alive but severely crippled, and its fate is decided by people who seem to care more about egos and their own selfish gain than the patient, in endless battles and debates which go nowhere. MorphOS is favoured by many around here because they feel it is here, and not just in slowly progressing beta and locked down to now rapidly aging hardware. Quite often they will voice support for either platform, that the programmers despite gruelling circumstances did a really good job, but keep in the back of their mind that the platform is so far away from other mainstream platforms it is just a hobby project at this time.
Amigaworld.net is for the fanatics, those who believe in a miracle resuscitation of the platform, and hang on tight to every morsel of positive information (someone mentioning the word Amiga, a small video, a little demo, the Frieden brothers speaking) about the Amiga to foster their belief in the second, third, fourth, n-th coming. They consider Amizilla and OpenOffice 2 viable projects which will surely see the light of day---you recognise these people by the posts they sometimes make on the Amizilla mailing list: 'Status report? Status report? Are you done yet? I wanna help despite having very little coding experience!', or by their cheerful, and unbelievably naive optimism that another program has been 'announced' for the platform. Economics are usually not their strong point.
Then there's ann.lu, which is just a cesspit of flames, fanboys, conceited egos and 'mine is bigger than yours'-arguments. Terrific to start rumours on, that you heard from a friend of a friend who has insider information that ... At least, it was that a few years ago, things might have changed though. (As in: administration with a big magnet.)
Then there's a few other forums, dedicated to AROS and MorphOS, for example. But their alignment is obvious from the website itself, so I won't bother to describe those.
Thus endeth the lesson. Chooseth now, for the right forum will bestow life upon thee, while the wrong forum will taketh it away from thee.
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It's fairly simple, really. Amiga.org is for the realists
No it is for the pessimistic ex amigans. The people that are hurting Amiga.
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@ikir:
Thank you very much for proving my point. To be honest, I was more or less counting on a reply from you when I wrote the above.
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So you already know you wrote a joke.
Bah'.....
BTW... have you read the Follow Up?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2167
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ikir wrote:
It's fairly simple, really. Amiga.org is for the realists
No it is for the pessimistic ex amigans. The people that are hurting Amiga.
If that's the case, what are you doing here? Just an observation.
Given Amiga's history for the last 10+ years, I think a realist has every right to be pessimistic.
BTW... have you read the Follow Up?
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2167 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2167)
Interesting read. Though if one reads the original transcript, I'm surprised how they could come up with the conclusion that OS4 has been canned.
Garry Hare wrote:
Other than this note, I won't be on public boards.
Wise move. Businesses getting dragged into flame wars is never a good plan.
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If that's the case, what are you doing here? Just an observation.
Posting news, informations, replying to who write *****.
BTW i submitted the news about the Eyetech interview and the followup from Garry Hare.
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BTW i submitted the news about the Eyetech interview and the followup from Garry Hare.
I was firts !! I submitted it firtst !! Really !!..
ERm.. What Eyetech interview.. /me reloading aw..
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ikir wrote:
If that's the case, what are you doing here? Just an observation.
Posting news, informations, replying to who write *****.
BTW i submitted the news about the Eyetech interview and the followup from Garry Hare.
Surely if we're all "pessimistic ex-amigans" here, we're lost causes?
I don't (know how to, and so don't try in case I screw things up) approve news articles.
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Interesting read. Though if one reads the original transcript, I'm surprised how they could come up with the conclusion that OS4 has been canned.
Pft.. The same way as everybody read Red's comment and jumped up and down screaming.. about nothing really.. Did you know lots of people read but can't read ?
Sure, I see what Rogue is saying, and the other thread Red made was far to much, the thread on AW should have been cut off way before it got to were it is now.
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No it is for the pessimistic ex amigans. The people that are hurting Amiga.
Why do you think being pessimistic is wrong? If users have bad vibes towards Amiga (Inc.) or Genesi and think they have found something interesting why not express them? This is a discussion forum after all.
As much as I hate reading bad news about Genesi it is just only a life. If it hurts MorphOS so be it. If MorphOS dies because of it so be it. Bad luck, life sucks and everyone cant win.
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"You kids shouldn't play so rough. Somebody's gonna start cryin'."
Reservoir Dogs
...
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"pessimistic" is not the same thing as "realistic".
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"You kids shouldn't play so rough. Somebody's gonna start cryin'."
:lol:
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ikir wrote:
"pessimistic" is not the same thing as "realistic".
Neither is "deluded", but don't let that stop you.
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@pyro
Quite honestly stated, I couldn't afford to buy one, even if I had any interest in doing so. I'm much more interested in buying a digital SLR camera than having yet another reason to sit behind this desk for more hours at a time.
I did try MorphOS when I had the chance, and I'm sure AmigaOS is pretty much identical in most respects. What I found though is that it didn't have any software that *I* would need to use. I suspect neither does, since the only software available for them is either simple commodities or stuff released before 1994.
That isn't a reflection on the Amiga or the Pegasos though. I am finding that I'm at an age where I am less and less interested in computers at all, so spending approximately $1200 to assemble an AmigaOne just to say I have one and use up more space in my closet simply doesn't appeal to me.
That's sad for me to have to admit, because where I wouldn't spend the exhorbitant amounts of money to buy an AmigaOne (or Pegasos) system, I might be tempted to spend $499 on a Mac Mini just to learn OSX.
To me, it's less about the hardware and OS, and more about the available software base and how I could actually get some use from it. Sadly, the Amiga desktop platform simply (IMHO) has no useable software base and no real development base. As it sits, I personally simply cannot see any way to establish any real software base either.
The AmigaOne/OS4 will sell to interested Amiga users. I'm absolutely sure of that. The problem becomes, how do you sell an overpriced, outdated, underpowered system with no real, usable software to more than that dwindling crowd of 2000 or so fiercely dedicated people?
Let me state, as clearly as I possibly can that I hope I'm wrong. I really, really, really do. I just can't see the Amiga PPC desktop platform as being viable. I couldn't see it in 2001 (and was thrown off the ACCM for strongly expressing my opinions and doubts), I can't see it now (though admittedly the platform hasn't moved at all since 2001, so that's to be expected). You can only "play dead" for so long before people start pronouncing you officially dead.
That doesn't mean that I wish the platform harm in any way. I don't. It's simply that no one to this day has demonstrated to me a clear and honest vision of how the Amiga PPC desktop is supposed to thrive and survive when there are better supported and cheaper platforms out there. "Who am I that I need or even deserve such demonstrations" you ask? No one really, simply someone who -- once upon a time -- would have been a customer.
Wayne
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by Wayne on 2005/3/21 13:36:27
Ok, so maybe it wasn't quite THAT bad, but it was surely full of vague doubletalk. Very Dubya in my opinion, but yes, off-topic the Bush family is making money (they're oil people remember?)
So is the Gore family with Occidental Petroleum Corporation.
:whack:
Now back to our regularly scheduled Amiga Inc Flame Fest.
Dammy
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by ikir on 2005/3/22 5:53:06
No it is for the pessimistic ex amigans. The people that are hurting Amiga.
If that is the case, guess your just another "pessimistic ex amigan" sinc your here posting?
Dammy
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dammy wrote:
by Wayne on 2005/3/21 13:36:27
Ok, so maybe it wasn't quite THAT bad, but it was surely full of vague doubletalk. Very Dubya in my opinion, but yes, off-topic the Bush family is making money (they're oil people remember?)
So is the Gore family with Occidental Petroleum Corporation.
:whack:
Now back to our regularly scheduled Amiga Inc Flame Fest.
Dammy
Which proves my point about American politics in another thread. "Same sh!t, different colour".
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"Same sh!t, different colour".
Might be true for european politics, but with american politics "same sh!t, different shades of brown" would be more accurate :-o
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Tsk tsk, and i thought the war was over.........
Why is there a war any longer anyway?
Nobody that is tired of shouting at eachother?
We ALL have the same roots ffs!
:-(
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I know it's difficult, but let's stay on topic please?
Wayne
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I just read the follow up from Garry, and it cleared up quite a bit of the worries i had atleast..
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45882 (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45882)
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This one time, at band camp... :-P
Seriously, though, if KMOS are truly serious with their intentions, and are going to make an embedded OS of AmigaOS, then at least something will happen with it. To be honest, I find that to be a better idea than trying to recreate a dying hobbyist platform.
The future of computing is within low-power embedded devices, handhelds, set-top boxes, phones, and advanced terminal clients. All those devices are going to need a small OS to run them, and the lack of development of AmigaOS make it a prime candidate for developing such OS's.
IF KMOS are serious, that is...
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I read the follow up, and while I thank him for taking the time, it didn't really fill in any blanks where I'm concerned. Just sounded like more of the same we've heard for the last 5 years.
I'm afraid that after 5 years of the SOS, only a full and complete disclosure (without doublespeak) would ever suffice to instill any sort of trust or belief that the future was anything but dead-ended. Anything short of that is just the SOS we've all heard before.
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new/old Amiga Inc. Everything about the Amiga scene - including AROS - seems frozen in time. Nothing has changed, nothing's moved on or evolved at all. You could cut and paste any old thread from the past four years into a thread on the same subject today and it would still make perfect sense. It would be virtually impossible to tell the comments were years apart.
Yeah, that's why I don't bother posting on these types of threads any more...
Btw, nice to see you back Bill.
- Mike
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@Wayne,
That doesn't mean that I wish the platform harm in any way. I don't. It's simply that no one to this day has demonstrated to me a clear and honest vision of how the Amiga PPC desktop is supposed to thrive and survive when there are better supported and cheaper platforms out there.
There is one chance, and it's a long shot... I heard rumors that MS is interested in re-releasing their OS on a PPC chip. If true (which I doubt, but anything is possible) it could totally change the PPC market and finally allow AmigaOS to run on semi-mainstram hardware for once.
Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything you've said, except that I'm just not that bitter about the whole thing. :-) I can see a PPC based OS4 making some profits in the hobbyist market, but it will depend greatly on the marketing behind it. The name Amiga can still stir up some great nostalgia, and most ex-Amigans probably have no clue about the current in-fighting or even of OS4's existance. Some clever marketing could exploit the brand name, but of course, the technology needs to be there as well...
- Mike
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I heard rumors that MS is interested in re-releasing their OS on a PPC chip. If true (which I doubt, but anything is possible) it could totally change the PPC market and finally allow AmigaOS to run on semi-mainstram hardware for once.
Speak to Holley. He's seen Windows XP running natively on a Mac.
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@ Waccoon
"Yes, but how many "in-house" products have Amiga Inc. released in the last six years? A cheezy game pack? That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
Also, I'm still confused about what is meant by in-house. Here's something from the IRC chat (quoted by Elwood)"
Well there you go, you just partly answerd your own questions there. AI have already released game packs weather you think they are cheesy is irrelevent. I haven't seen any OS4 released yet, at least they have released something. It shows to me that the company is busy. If you have no confidense in the company, what are you doing hanging around. Go elsewhere that does inspire confidense or stop shouting about nothing, which is what you are doing because we don't have a product yet.
As for In House, it's Gary's company, he can do whtever he likes and he made the comment In House because, well guess why? It's because he's not going to tell you anything else appart from that. So speculate or quote as much as you like, it's only speculation unless Gary wants to tell you more, which I'm almost certain, he does not.
"SHADES: To be quite blunt, he shouldn't have to, and I bet that Hyperion won't tell you either.
Yes, they both should -- if they expect people to acutally buy their products.
A company is nothing without its reputation."
That's just silly, no company in their right mind would disclose all their future plans. ATI wont do it for Nvidia
AMD won't do it for Intel, Transmetta won't do it for anyone lol, Sony perhaps??, not likely.
History shows that your type of thinking where companies share all thier future plans is company suicide.
It won't happen so dont even go there, if your not happy about that, well it's just too bad.
Gary is in this for the long term and he want's to make some money. He's not going to tell you. Call the wambulance.
I agree everyone is biting their nails, it's been a long and tiresome history for this platform.........but he's still not going to tell you :-) and neither would I if I was in his position :-D
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Glaucus wrote:
There is one chance, and it's a long shot... I heard rumors that MS is interested in re-releasing their OS on a PPC chip. If true (which I doubt, but anything is possible) it could totally change the PPC market and finally allow AmigaOS to run on semi-mainstram hardware for once.
So? That semi-mainstream hardware would still have to be sold by a "special" licensed vendor outside that semi-mainstream, if you want to run AmigaOS on it.
And there is semi-mainstream PPC consumer hardware today. Macs. Though that doesn't help us. Not because it can't help us, but because it's not ALLOWED to help us, and then I'm not talking about Apple but the compan(y|ies) that supposedly would have an interest in improving AmigaOS sales and market size.
And now -- depending on what the hell Hare really meant -- on top of the already sh|tty but reversible situation, it seems like Eyetech(!) are to be involved in the decisions about on which hardware AmigaOS4+ is to run on and who's to be granted a licence to sell us other people's hardware!
In other words, AmigaOS would not only have been fscked-up like I thought, but Fscked-Up Beyond Repair.
Other than amusing a thousand or so people who are prepared to buy insanely overpriced and underperforming new hardware from a company like Eyetech, the AmigaOS project has been rendered pointless. It's not a rebirth or even life support for AmigaOS. It's possibly a slight deceleration of the fall.
Regarding "in-house development" of "an Internet OS" or whatever, I'll believe it when I see it, and right now there is no reason whatsoever to believe that anyone will ever see it. That's unless you count "bbbbut AInc said so!" as a reason...
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@Cymric
That's a very downing speech you gave there.
I wonder if that's how oppressed people during wars felt.
Some of those wars went on for years and 10s of years with no end in site.
The only thing people had left was hope and the belief that it would end to give a brighter future.
I think it's the same in everything you do in life. To give up on something you believe in is to give up on living.
To me life is all about overcoming obsticals and striving for a better future. Families escaped Russia through China in the 2nd World war and they did this by squandering money. If you got caught doing this in China back then, you were shot where you stood. No questions, no nothing.
Some of these people hung on to hope and migrated. They fled to contries like US and AUS and most were able to make a life. Enough to get into homes and schooled and through UNI.
I hope I don't need to read to many posts like yours. Most people would be shot down in e-mail on site for being caught believing in AMIGA and a future.
Guess what, I believe, so come get me. You're not going to make everyone feel like no hope is left. You want to be realistic?? wars are very real. If people give up, they loose. Now that's the reality of life !
Then again, their only your views lol. I really shouldn't let them get to me the way it did. I must be tired.
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@restore2003
" Tsk tsk, and i thought the war was over.........
Why is there a war any longer anyway?
Nobody that is tired of shouting at eachother?
We ALL have the same roots ffs!"
War isn't over until people stop attacking. Well that's the way it seems to happen.
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Can't you find a new hobby? Please?
It's truly embarassing to see someone being wrong so consistently.
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Ben?
To whom are you speaking?
Wayne
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Seehund wrote:
So? That semi-mainstream hardware would still have to be sold by a "special" licensed vendor outside that semi-mainstream, if you want to run AmigaOS on it.
Maybe, maybe not - if what I said happens the market could change so drastically that today's Amiga hardware policies may be forced to change. Secondly, even if they don't, PPC technology will become more competetive on all fronts against the x86 line. Even if Eyetech still charges us more then Apple would for the same hardware, the overall price will still go down for both systems.
And there is semi-mainstream PPC consumer hardware today. Macs. Though that doesn't help us. Not because it can't help us, but because it's not ALLOWED to help us, and then I'm not talking about Apple but the compan(y|ies) that supposedly would have an interest in improving AmigaOS sales and market size.
Well, Apple certainly won't help us, and they would need to do so to make iMac's a viable option for Hyperion to invest their time and effort in porting any OS to it. But not only that, try buying an iMac without OSX pre-installed.
Don't get me wrong Seehund, I've been a strong advocate for porting AmigaOS to the x86 line right from the beginning. I fought bitterly with Ben on ann.lu years ago, but that battle was lost.
Regarding "in-house development" of "an Internet OS" or whatever, I'll believe it when I see it, and right now there is no reason whatsoever to believe that anyone will ever see it. That's unless you count "bbbbut AInc said so!" as a reason...
Honestly, who cares? I wish them the best of luck. All I care about is OS4.X, why even bring up AA?
- Mike
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@Glaucus
"Honestly, who cares? I wish them the best of luck. All I care about is OS4.X, why even bring up AA?"
I have to agree 100%
Who cares because all I want is OS4 too. I have no idea why I debate anything else. If people want the OS, it will suceed and the company with it.
As for AA, heck if it improves sales for the company who owns AOS, bring that on too, the more help for AOS, the better.
Bring on OS4.
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Glaucus wrote:
But not only that, try buying an iMac without OSX pre-installed.
Go to www.yellowdoglinux.com, and you'll get close. Granted, the Macs that Terra Soft sells are dual-booting, either Linux or OS X. But one distinction is that Linux is the primary OS. You must go to the Open Firmware boot screen to load OS X.
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Your right Wayne the price of entry is kind of high but @ least from a developer standpoint DiscreetFX finds Amiga OS 4.0 and MorphOS for that matter worthwhile and we are developing for it. And while a lack of software is a liability to you, to a developer it is an opportunity. We have high hopes for AOS 4 & MOS and time will tell. Go ahead and get that Mac Mini, we greatly enjoy the 2.5 Ghz Dual G5 that Apple gave us, you will find OS X a joy to use. Nothing like the very dated and underpowered Mac OS 9 and lower of former years.
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Wayne: I read the follow up, and while I thank him for taking the time, it didn't really fill in any blanks where I'm concerned. Just sounded like more of the same we've heard for the last 5 years.
True, but he repeatedly said that he is honoring Hyperion and Eyetech contracts, and letting them steer the direction of OS4. My interpretation, along with HyperionMP's statement that Amiga has had no significant contribution to OS4, tells me anything other than AA is essentially out of their hands.
Which is probably just as well. If they're not interested in an OS that bears their own damned brand name...
AI have already released game packs weather you think they are cheesy is irrelevent. I haven't seen any OS4 released yet, at least they have released something.
I suppose. It's just that it doesn't look any different or more advanced than the first game pack released years ago.
Me: Yes, they both should -- if they expect people to acutally buy their products.
A company is nothing without its reputation.
SHADES: That's just silly, no company in their right mind would disclose all their future plans.
I'm not talking about future plans or an extensive, 10-year projection, here. It should be obvious by now that "plans" are unimportant. More like, what can AA do that other platforms cannot? What's special about it? What does it do now? Well, they can't really tell you, but they did release some new games that don't really need the capabilities of their platform, and can easily be done on all their competitors' platforms.
It's too bad you think that the cheezyness is irrelevant, because that's exactly what Amiga is using to sell their product. Detailed information about the platform's capabilities is vital to long-term survival.
Java didn't become popular becuase they used Amiga Inc. business tactics. Hell, Sun has a very impressive documentation archive. You don't need the SDK, or even the runtime, to see what it can do.
Glaucus: Honestly, who cares? I wish them the best of luck. All I care about is OS4.X, why even bring up AA?
I'm the opposite, because architecture like OS4 is obsolete, and the idea of AA is promising, even if what they are doing with it is complete crap.
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Wayne wrote:
Ben?
To whom are you speaking?
Wayne
To the mirror (obviously) :-P
Bout that game-pack "released" by AInc:
The games were made be Zeneo (and others ??), the engine by TAO and who knows who did the packaging....
Even if they did those games, they are all combined no more than 1 years work for a talented developer and maybe another year fot the graphican.
The onl thing AInc seems to have done themself is that auto-scaling feature, not very imperessive for a 5 year journey (and I wouldn't be suprised to find out even that was done by someone else).
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With modern PDAs and Phones being introduced with 3D chips, the whole idea of AmigaDE's cheesy game packs seem less and less relevant to a modern market.
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Waccoon wrote:
I'm the opposite, because architecture like OS4 is obsolete, and the idea of AA is promising, even if what they are doing with it is complete crap.
Are you saying that OS4 is obsolete compared to other operating systems or that natively compiled programs running on natively compiled operating systems are obsolete and we should all just move to Java or .NET?
I would disagree with both assertions. While OS4 lacks some modern OS features (comprehensive memory protection, journaling file systems etc.) it's certainly not stuck in the stone ages. It's unfortunate the new amiga.com site doesn't have those articles on the steps to modernize Amiga OS for version 4, they were a rather good read.
As for device independent stuff like Java and .NET, natively compiled programs will never go away. Large applications like Adobe Photoshop or OO.o take an unacceptably long time to start even on a 1.8GHz machine. The Eclipse IDE is noticeably slowed by the fact that it's not a native application. Java and .NET are great technologies and they have their place, but I don't see them taking over the world.
I don't see how AA is promising. I don't see anything it can do that can't be done as well or better by its competitors. At least OS 4 has a few competitive (lean, fast, runs system friendly 68K apps quickly and seamlessly, etc.) advantages even if they are overshadowed by other shortcomings.
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@Waccoon
"I'm not talking about future plans or an extensive, 10-year projection, here. It should be obvious by now that "plans" are unimportant. More like, what can AA do that other platforms cannot? What's special about it? What does it do now? Well, they can't really tell you, but they did release some new games that don't really need the capabilities of their platform, and can easily be done on all their competitors' platforms."
I guess that's fair enough Waccoon, the thing is you just don't know what AIs 10 year plan is. It may well be OS4 or intergration of AA into AOS or a completly new way of thinking for desktop/handheld enviroments.
I would say it must have something to do with it because they are being very tight lipped about it all.
SUN were also very tight lipped when JAVA was in conception. People knew that they were working on something supposedly revolutionary, but that's about it. Now that it's available, sure!
My thoughts on this whole bit are that AI are still working on AA, maybe it's bigger than what we have seen so far. Maybe you only saw the cheezy bit.
Look, even i'm speculating about AIs future plans here, I don't have any real evidece appart from the obvious like OS4 is going to be a release etc... The thing is, if it's critical to the companies success, they are not going to say much. You could also see this as a positive! That they(AI) are kind of banking on it??
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@ All,
Just to throw a bone in the works, I too must admit, I find the hardware platform for AMIGA a little too pricy. I will still save to buy one, but I hope the price drops a bit. $50 won't even fill my tank of petrol these days, yet I can go buy a 900Mhz P3 for that. lol
ok, ok, that's second hand :) probably doesn't count lol
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> yet I can go buy a 900Mhz P3 for that.
While not exactly $50, you can get a PIII / 933 with mATX motherboard, cpu and fan for $85.00 according to Pricewatch. About the same speed and features at about 1/8th the price.
From Pricewatch;
eMachines - Pinole/P933
*In Stock* - eMachines Pinole Socket 370 Intel i810E chipset 133MHz FSB Audio & Video mATX 3-PCI/1-CNRSlots with cpu - Intel Pentium III 933MHz Socket 370 with fan and heatsink [White Box]
If you look around in the Good Will stores, you could find an entire system for less than $100, but that would be used so it probably doesn't count.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
I read the follow up, and while I thank him for taking the time, it didn't really fill in any blanks where I'm concerned. Just sounded like more of the same we've heard for the last 5 years.
I'm afraid that after 5 years of the SOS, only a full and complete disclosure (without doublespeak) would ever suffice to instill any sort of trust or belief that the future was anything but dead-ended. Anything short of that is just the SOS we've all heard before.
Wayne,
I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you to some extent, even a full disclosure is the "SOS we've all heard before."
The only way it is not the SOS is for them to just shut-up and produce something. I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something. I would rather them produce a product that I can not stand than talk about producing something I might want. I would also rather them not talk about 5 business partnerships that succeed than talk about 1 business deal that eventually fails. (Sharp Zauras PDA anyone?)
As much as I might enjoy knowing all the ins and outs about what is going on, I would much rather know nothing and have Amiga Inc. succeed at its business endeavors than know everything and watch it fail.
At this point, I am in the wait and see mode and am happy to stay there until they finally succeed or fail. As a fellow business man, I certainly wish them the best and hope it is the former, and not the later.
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Bloodline: With modern PDAs and Phones being introduced with 3D chips, the whole idea of AmigaDE's cheesy game packs seem less and less relevant to a modern market.
Right. Older PDAs were built like ancient PCs, with one CPU that did everything. Newer PDAs are using dedicated graphics chips and require more modern OS design to take full advantage of the hardware. What seems insane today won't be five years from now.
Chances are, many PDA OSes will start coming with all the tools needed for great graphics, like the new embedded version of OpenGL 2.0. What use is AA then?
MskoDestny: Are you saying that OS4 is obsolete compared to other operating systems or that natively compiled programs running on natively compiled operating systems are obsolete and we should all just move to Java or .NET?
Both. Seeing how much of OS3 had to be rewritten and replaced, I would classify the OS as obsolete. OS4 is less obsolete, but there's still a lot that needs to be replaced to make it fully modern, such as the security system. You just can't add security and expect huge numbers of things not to break, even if you use a fairly simple and widespread security system like the traditional UNIX model (I could fill a book with all the stupid file ownership problems I've run into as a web developer). I was very disappointed to see Hyperion didn't think about security at all with OS4, and publicly touted "security through obscurity". That might work just well for them with only a couple thousand machines out there, but not setting down ground rules now makes things a lot harder in the long run. Lots of things will have to be replaced in OS4 to make it OS5.
Besides, anything can be dragged into the modern era. It's a question of how much work it will take, compared to starting with a truly modern system and modifying it to run OS3 applications. Apple might have been able to make OS9 into a modern system, but they saw it easier to start with UNIX and work their way forward from there. Whether OS9 was bad is irrelevant. It's how much work it takes to make it modern.
I can't say Java is a lifesaver, though, as Sun has had more than its share of screw-ups, including the fact they replaced the entire UI toolkit at one point. .NET is hardly any better, though it at least it doesn't restrict you to just one language.
MskoDestny: As for device independent stuff like Java and .NET, natively compiled programs will never go away.
Not 100%, and definately not at the OS level, but a lot more than most people think. You also have to consider the application of most languages. Interpreted code is useless for a tool to search a database, but what about a chat program? The complexity of the two programs isn't all that much different, but the usage is. The server and workstation world may demand native code, but home computers do not. Performance isn't everything to an end user, as is quite obvious given how many PC users allow anti-virus software to suck up 50%+ of their CPU time, rather than learn how viruses get on computers in the first place and just use common sense.
Native code is also a liability when it comes to security. I feel more comfortable downloading a Java application than I do having to "install" an application, especially since many programs won't install unless you have admin priviledges. System security is irrelevant if you have to login as root to install anything.
Notice that almost all web programming languages are interpreted. People have been bashing interpreted and just-in-time compiled programs for years, but they just keep getting more popular, especially as they get closer to the performance of native code.
It's foolish to think that you only have to use one language (like C++) to write an entire application, and that interpreted languages are supposed to work universally on all platforms. The future of programming is to use a Java-like platform to write the application framework (largely because development is quicker and it's easier to debug), and maybe dip into low-level languages for performance. Use the right tool for the job. Why spend six months writing it in C when you can get it done in a month with a higher-level language? Development time and debugging is rarely considered among people who bash interpreted languages.
Also, applications are portable because developers want them to be, not becauase the language just works that way. If a Mac person sees a Java application, he or she may be upset that the Java program doesn't follow Mac interface rules. Sometimes, you have to fine-tune a program for a platform even if the language promises (and delivers) true architecture independence. It boils down to what you need to do, rather than how the language forces you (or doesn't force you) to do it.
But then, performance-critical tools don't have to be compiled with the application, either. There's nothing to stop you from using a natively compiled library with an interpreted framework. Tao's "tools" work like that. Tao's VP isn't about the universal compatibility offered by Java or another full-blown virtual machine. It's a shame people think all virtual processing languages work the same way and are basically clones of Java. Java is a step in the right direction, but is still heavily flawed.
I was hoping tha alliance between Tao and Amiga Inc. would give us the answer, but six years later, all we've gotten are games. Game packs don't show us anything that hasn't been done before.
Such a shame.
SHADES: I guess that's fair enough Waccoon, the thing is you just don't know what AIs 10 year plan is. It may well be OS4 or intergration of AA into AOS or a completly new way of thinking for desktop/handheld enviroments.
I don't care what their 10-year plan is. I want to know what's good about the work they're doing now. I want something that tells me they know what they are doing, and they don't have to tell me what they will make 10 years from now or make empty promises to do that.
There were many 10-years plans 10 years ago. Where did it get us today? Lots of plans, lots of promises, and absolutely nothing to prove they had any clue what they were doing and that buying their products was a good thing.
Keeping their mouthes shut doesn't solve the core of the problem, which is that they haven't released or demonstrated anything impressive.
SHADES: My thoughts on this whole bit are that AI are still working on AA, maybe it's bigger than what we have seen so far. Maybe you only saw the cheezy bit.
Maybe, but most companies don't take this long to make something so cheezy.
SHADES: The thing is, if it's critical to the companies success, they are not going to say much. You could also see this as a positive! That they(AI) are kind of banking on it??
10+ years is a long time without any new products. Constant trading of hands and a lot of silence will do that. Seeing how little Garry says I don't think he has much power in the company and the investors are the same as they were with Bill. What is it about their situation that has you so confident, especially after such a lackluster release as another game pack?
SirLancelotDuLac: I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something.
I agree, but there's nothing wrong with being loud and proud over what you've done. The release of AA version 1.5 was pretty much just a whimper.
Hey, at least it forced them to unify their website design. :-)
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Waccoon wrote:
SirLancelotDuLac: I would much rather they spend their resources producing something than talking about producing something.
I agree, but there's nothing wrong with being loud and proud over what you've done. The release of AA version 1.5 was pretty much just a whimper.
Hey, at least it forced them to unify their website design. :-)
Totally agreed, I thought that was my round-about point, but maybe I was not clear enough. They should keep silent until something is done, then announce it. AA 1.5 is complete and a good accomplishment as are the various new AA products for sale on the website. That should be announced and it has been, even if it was only "a whimper".
I personally feel the lower key announcement was more appropriate, considering the AA products are still only on two Microsoft platforms. When the product is ported to many more non-Microsoft platforms, a bigger announcement will be in order, IMHO.
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(warning, rambling ahead. It's pretty dis-connected, but it's the beginning of my thought processes anyway).
I have been thinking a lot about all of this since the infamous IRC conference, and I really don't understand the amount of frustration that's turning normally rational adults into mud-slinging children (myself included).
I find myself (probably like a lot of you) caught in a quandry. As of April 26th, I've spent 10 years wanting to do nothing else but support the Amiga community. That desire to support the community "professionally" combined with my frustration over the current Amiga situation has lead to me making more mistakes than I can remember.
Here's the problem. I love supporting the Amiga community. I really think very highly of all of you. I even have high regards for the few that go out of their way to intentionally try and piss me off. You're all reasonable rationable people who normally respond in an adult fashion.
For me though, the "Amiga" (to include AI and the PPC platform) doesn't hold any interest for me any more. To me, the classics (though useable) are dying due to the sheer age of the equipment and the "new" platform is pretty much stillborn.
Speaking entirely for myself, just to get it out in the open, I feel betrayed by Amiga Inc (and every other company except -- oddly enough -- Gateway that has come onto the scene). I have a lot of "war wounds" to prove it. I'm also continually frustrated by the fact that the "age of the Amiga desktop reigning supreme" appears to be over, and Amiga Inc (any version of it) doesn't seem to really care one way or the other. I'm upset that they're "wasting" the legacy and memory that was the Amiga on a mythical piece of software that has no chance of competing against the hoard of other companies who're more prepared and better funded.
How does one both "not care" (about the computer) and "care deeply" (about the community) at the same time without "shooting from the hip"?
In short, I feel like the more I try to help, the worse things get. I hate feeling this way and I really wish I knew of a way to fix the problems that're all driving each other nuts.
Here's the thing that we all need to understand. Garry et al bought the trademarks and they're obviously doing whatever they want, regardless of rhyme or reason (or direct begging from us). Whether or not a new Amiga desktop platform stands a snowball's chance in hell isn't really relevant. They're going to do what they're gonna do.
Anyway....
I had a 7 page long rambling post past this, but hell, it all boils down to whether or not we (as a community) are more interested any more in accepting the facts, or destroying each other trying to prove who's right (when it doesn't really matter any more anyway).
As for me, I'm weighing my continued participation in this site very heavily when I consider the pending anniversary of the 10 years I've put into it. Hell, even Kevin Hisel had the common sense to give up after 5 years. Anyway, I look back on what has become of my life and I literally see a curve, which pretty much follows the exact curve of the Amiga over the last 10 years.
I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit (like the big kits you see on e-bay), and to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe it's not such a joke. On the other hand, there are times when I feel that walking away from 10 years of effort would be a monumental mistake and one I'd live to regret. I've made a lot of mistakes in trying to do what's best for me as well as the platform. Everyone knows that, and sometimes I really feel that the Amiga really is "cursed". To those of you I've wronged, I apologize (again).
I'm not trying to be a martyr here, nor am I claiming to be any kind of saint. Hell, I'm pretty much one of the worst at letting emotions rule my actions where the Amiga is concerned. As such I screw up. A lot sometimes, sometimes not so much. In all though, I just want everyone who's bothered to read this far to take a few steps back from the Amiga for a moment. Breathe deeply and think about the things (about the Amiga) that are really frustrating you. Get to understand those things -- and the real reasons behind them..
Perhaps then we can all "sit down" (virtually speaking) and hash all these things out like the adults we really are.
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I dont know.. but... is it just me who sees more and more A500 enthusiasts posting on this site? There is specific community to serve which was ignored in the past.
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@itix,
When you said that, I instantly pictured Doomy and wondered whether we'll find out which machine really was the best ever made by which machine is physically "the last machine standing". They're all dropping like flies and parts are becoming more and more scarce.
:laughing:
Wayne
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Indeed! What we need is a retro machine to take its place.
An Amiga One, perhaps! :-D
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@whabang:
Joke of the day, hands down. :-)
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I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit (like the big kits you see on e-bay), and to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe it's not such a joke.
Okay everybody, let's pitch in and buy Wayne a nice Canon Digital Rebel XT kit (http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=11154). I think he deserves it! Hmmm... come to think of it, so do I! :-D
- Mike
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@wayne
:-D
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I've jokingly stated that I'd trade it all for a Canon Digital Rebel XT kit
How about gettting the camera anyway and thinking about it while you're off taking pictures?
BTW I thoroughly reccommend the EOS digital range, the quality is absolutely fantastic.I just want everyone who's bothered to read this far to take a few steps back from the Amiga for a moment. Breathe deeply and think about the things (about the Amiga) that are really frustrating you.
The trolls.
Arguments between the sides are to be expected but some folks like to make life difficult. Then there's the idiots - those who really believe theirs is the only "true" path.
There's not that many of either but unfortunately they are very noisy and very good at getting people arguing.
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The platform needs to be advanced if it is to grow and become anything better than a retro hobby. That means full memory protection and if possible at east partial POSIX compliance (will make life a lot easier if you want apps like OO or Firefox).
Doing these however will break compatibility with pretty much everything. However the suggestion of using an exo-kernel could help in that it allows 2 OSs to run simultaneously - you could have two very different versions of the same OS running side by side and with the Amiga using seperate windows for apps it could proably be made quite seamless.
That't be a good start, there'll be a lot more to do - BeOS was at that level 9 years ago...
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@wayne
But the real question is are there any military grade A500 enthusiasts on this site.
:-)
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Minatorb: However the suggestion of using an exo-kernel could help in that it allows 2 OSs to run simultaneously - you could have two very different versions of the same OS running side by side and with the Amiga using seperate windows for apps it could proably be made quite seamless
You know what really pi**es me off? The Amiga was so old and so many things have to run under emulation, anyway, putting everything into an emulation sandbox and making a brand new OS was such a good idea. UNIX has lots of warts, but a lot of innovative ideas can be added to an existing, modern OS. Linux isn't pretty, but it's a better starting point than OS3.
Now that they have made things AmigaOne native using OS4, there is really no realistic upgrade path but to dump everything and start all over. I don't want to see OS4 evolve into a terrible mess of hacks and patches like Windows (which is at the end of its life, too).
I don't see any future for Amiga as a platform. I see AA as a set of libraries, and that means you have to follow your host's interface guidelines. It's all invisible to the end user, so who cares if it's Amiga or not?
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I totally agree with you about being pissed, about what Amiga Inc's priority seems to be, they and a lot of us, are holding on to something that was ground breaking 20 years ago...who cares about an exact re-invention of the Amiga 500 now, or OS 3.9...4.0??? It is cool, damn me for loving it, but I do....BUT IT IS OLD...If I want old, I will EMULATE OLD, my son was playing Wings last night, you can pretty much emulate it exactly now, without any problems on a mid range PC......I ( THE GROWN UP GUY ) want a MODERN windows alternative with an IE 7.0 type browser, with plug-ins that play my freakin videos, post pictures correctly etc, that's all.... Hey I am a patient man, I still use my Voodoo 5500 card, for crying out loud!
AMIGA INC....spend all of your money developing a KICK-ASS WEB BROWSER, instead of re-hashing old OS traits, If I could boot my X86 system from your OS, get on the internet without problems, and surf without an OS 2.0 looking browser, I would be a happy man.
The patience of all you guys who still have all of your original Amiga systems all cobbled up to as modern as you can get......is truly admirable, after all of the crap this brand has been through!!! I for one, wont get fooled again...no 3rd party boards, alternate amiga-like OSes etc, will I be purchasing, only to be left hanging in the wind........when Amiga Inc releases a live boot X86 system CD with browser, I will buy back in.
It cost me nothing to wait, it cost Amiga Inc customers every single day, who are tired of waiting! :-)