Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Unit21 on February 26, 2003, 01:53:39 PM
-
Just want some of your opinions and advice on this.
I am looking at getting me some video-editing equipment for home-use.
As I'm not too fond of Windows I am wondering if this is something
that can be done on the Amiga with a good enough result.
I am seriously considering the DraCo, as it has most of the functionality I need,
but I would really like to hear from people with some experience in the field of video-editing....
All advice is greatly appreciated! :-)
-
If you have a powerfull pc you can benefit from both worlds by using emulation. Grab your video using very cheap pc equipment. Save in a amiga friendly format. (This means almost anything) edit it in your emulated amiga with ppaint, profesional paint, tvpaint or any other high quality amiga paint proggy. Export your edited video back to an appropriate media..
Eaasy :-D
-
Here is a list of some software applications I have, most of which will require additional hardware. [see classified adverts]
http://www.amigarealm.com/amiga/amivideo/av7.htm (http://www.amigarealm.com/amiga/amivideo/av7.htm)
I have some slightly older video software that I have not yet upload, mainly PD and Coverdisk.
Skippy
-
The problem with DraCo is that it uses the M-JPEG (Motion JPEG) format. I' ve been using an AV MASTER card (PC, from Fast Multimedia) which uses the same format. IT SUCKS!
I am not a PC fun, but I think that you should better consider a MATROX RT2500 or a MATROX RTX10.
Both use the MPEG-2 format in BROADCAST QUALITY and edit in Real-Time of course...
I have a Matrox RT2500 for some time now. If you want to ask anything just mail me.
As a professional Video artist for 13 years now, I think it's better to use todays power than spending more money on somethink that IT IS NOT 100% Amiga Compatible (No AGA chipset on DraCo means NO ScalaMM .....)
Unless of course you have an AMIGA4000T and a VLAB MOTION...
:-)
-
HeHemmm,
I just happen to be auctioning my Vlab Motion board, toccata sound board and Movieshop 4.3 editing software as a group on ebay. It has SVHS and composite input and output on the Vlab Motion board, the toccata is 16 bit audio and the software is pretty straightforward. With a 3000 of 4000T with a display card and a large scsi drive you won't need any thing else....no time base corrector as the vlm manages to stabilize the incoming video itself. I would suggest you have a'040 or better.
This isn't going to provide you with world class state of the art professional video but it does home tape editing just fine.
If interested...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3403627707&ssPageName=ADME:L:DS:US:8
Sincerely,
--Wil
-
Pick up a used Amiga 4000 or 4000T with a Video Toaster 4000 card and a Flyer card. You will be in Amiga video editing heaven.
-
if you dont like windows get a mac... the amiga is 100% obselete for video editing.
modern editing (the kind I assume you want to get into or WILL want to get into) is DV editing. Amigas lack both the tools and the raw cpu to do such editing.
On the windows side you have several sub 1000$ editing options... the best of wich I think is Vegas Video (about 700$) and a FireWire card... get a nice plump 80 gig drive...and you can edit non-realtime just fine.
In a mac there is pretty much Final Cut Pro and premiere and thats it...
on amiga?... if you plan to do editing by 10 year old standerds you could purchase an A4000T and outfit it with about 10,000 worth of junk hardware to be able to get it on par with PC editing of about 1998 or so.
I wouldnt waste your money.... and this isnt me trolling... it's seriousely a total waste and you may find it nostalgic but a complete waste of money at the same time... amigas have nothing to do with practical application.
I know alot of users here may steer you toward spending an extreme ammount of money out of love for the amiga...but it's essentially useless for this and has been for many many years. the Video Toaster has extremely limited and slow non-linear capabilities. It's bascially a 4 input switcher and a 24 bit frame buffer for performing insert/assemble AB roll editing.
It's like taking 1970's level editing and putting it into one cheap little box... it was extremely revolutionary in the 1980's and early 90's... but if you want something 'good' or at least 'decent' by todays stands you should seriousely think about a PC... if money is no option and you dont care to much about the relatively low performance a Mac might be a good idea(final cut pro is a kickass app by any standerds)...
If you want to be the 'weird' route and this is just a hobby/etc you "COULD" (I dont advise this) get a Pegasos and use Motion Studio with MorphOS... It's a pretty friendly consumer level editing solution... albeit pretty far behind mac/pc solutions.
-
Newtek's Video Toaster Flyer system is still a great system. There is nothing faster for basic editing speed because much of the processing is done by the dedicated hardware. In addition, the software is mature and stable. The main disadvantages are that it does not accept firewire input, and that it is available in NTSC only, not PAL. The compression used (proprietary) is good and keeps the video at D2 broadcast quality. Of course the software includes such bonuses as lightwave (up to 5.0). My flyer system is faster at basic editing than my friends G4 and easier to use. Last year I did an hour long video complete with lots of transitions and it took less than 5 minutes to "render". Jule
-
I wont comment on this except to say... you got two routes...
1:be smart and spend your money on video editing performance
2:be zealous and spend your money on an obselete solution that 'feels' better to the heart but produces things 'ugly' to the eye. or is incapable of produceing something period.
toaster is a 4 input switcher for AB roll or live switching it supports 24 bit color to handle video... it supports D2 editing...wich is still fine...but you gotta get the video onto obselete VHS to edit it... or somehow transfer it onto the amiga to get it on the flyer or DPS Par... the par supported ATA 33 IDE drives up to 2.1GB (IIRC it was 2.1GB)... the flyer supports Scsi2 wich is sorely obselete... your gonna work non-linear on a machine with a maximum capable cpu of 50mhz... remember this dosent run off the PPC.
Lightwave 5.0? we're at 7.5 ... we have hardware accelerated OpenGL... a nice P4 will crank out more realistic 3D in realtime in it's modeler then the Amiga can realistically render in a day(if we're gonna judge this by frames per seconed).
Toaster Paint?... Toaster Paint 2.5 mops floor with it in every respect imaginable... filters/george scripts/video paint/roto/animated 2D/motion path I/O/stroke recorder/color correction/photoshop external filters.
then you got the overall 'cost' to consider.
an A4000T+64MB of EDO+4 SCSI drives+Video Toaster+Flyer+a conversion deck(gotta convery from new DV to VHS somehow). the A4000T all told will probably cost you MORE then a modern VT2 box... I find the idea insane.
-
@ mips_proc
...get a Pegasos and use Motion Studio with MorphOS...
That wouldn't be all wrong, as I already have a Pegasos. If Titan could only release Motion Studio, but I guess they have to finish it first. Or maybe you know of a beta...? ;-)
Now that I have your attention... ;)
How well does the Sgi o2 perform on video-editing. A friend of mine has one that is gathering dust in a closet somewhere...
Thanks for all advice so far ppl... :-)
-
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the draco. The comment "MJPEG SUCKS" is definitely wrong. At least for the draco with Draco-Motion. It delivers absolute great picture quality. The software "Movieshop", especially the version5, is a really great editing program. The Draco has only a 50MHz CPU, that's correct, but the hard work is done in Hardware, so the 50MHz are no issue here. Ok, calculating effects takes some time, but again, the results abe really professional.
That might be different on a PC, but the Draco was a hell expensive Profi machine and it is still *very* good.
With the Vlab-Motion in an Amiga this a little bit different. There are restrictions in picture quality due to limited bandwith of the ZorroII-Bus and the design of the Vlab-Motion.
(The draco motion can adapt the quality on the fly. So you can tell the draco to compress the video to always fit into 6MByte/second. On Amiga you must set the quality static so that the most compicated pictures of your move not exite the bandwith of about 2.5(?) MBtye/s. So you compress most the time much to hard just ensure the few complicated pictures to fit inti the bandwith.
If you can get cheap Draco (with Dracomotion and , if possible with DV-Inmodule) you sould really consider it. It is really worth the money.
Over Chrismas I made a video with Amiga, Draco and Lightwave, TVPaint and so on. You can find it at
ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/pix/mpg/littlejedi.mpg
The picure-quality is only limited by the mpeg-encoder here.
For real working the Draco should have a network card. (Connection to the rest of the world ;) Not all cards work in the Draco! I can recommend the Ariadne-II together with Envoy-3 for Amiga connection or Samba for PC-Connection.
There is also an adapted Amiga-OS3.9 available for the Draco.
The best (German) Draco-Portal is http://home.t-online.de/home/ing.sed/
There is also a (German) mailinglist at http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/draconer. But you could also ask in English, of course.
Hope that helps a little.
Kind regards, selco http://selco.da.ru
-
@ selco
I've seen your little-jedi movie... And I can sense that the force is strong in that one... :-)
Just a few quick questions; What have you used to make the 'laser-effects'? And the scroll-text?
What are the limitations of the DraCo in everyday use? I mean, what would you like to do, but you cannot do on the DraCo?
How many 'special-effects' and transitions can be done in the Movieshop software?
Is there a way to convert MJPEG to other formats on the DraCo or will I have to do that on another machine?
What, in your opinion, is a fair price for a DraCo with all the bells and whistles (DracoMotion, Firewire etc.)??
What DraCos do you have? :-)
Regards,
U21
-
@ selco
M-JPEG SUCKS my friend.
I didnt post this for fun, I posted it to help our friend.
Have wou ever tried to measure the picture quality of M-JPEG using a Tectronix BROADCAST spectrum analyzer?
I did.
My friend, IT SUCKS!!!
This is why SMPTE and EBU (the organizations that set the Broadcast Standards) keep advising pros to work with MPEG-2 or Uncompressed Video.
p.s. I also downloaded your video a few weeks ago.
It is a beautiful work. Congratulations!
-
@Animagic:
"Have wou ever tried to measure the picture quality of M-JPEG using a Tectronix BROADCAST spectrum analyzer?"
No, of course not. And I don't want to offend anyone. I measured it with my eyes as that is what is important for an hobbyist. And judging from the eyes the results are superb. Of course there is is a loss in a compression like MJPeg. But with the bandwith of over 6 MBytes/s and the dynamic adaption of compression rate on the draco motion, you will not detect any visible decrease in quality.
The same argument must be true for MPEG-2 as it is also a lossy compression.
In both cases, MJPEG and MPEG-2, only the allowed datarate / compression ratio determines the quality.
Thats different on The Amiga with Vlab-Motion. Here the hardware-limitations of the Zorro-2 bus and the VlabMotion are more serious. Maximum Bandwith about 2.5 (?) MBytes/s and the VlabMotion requires a fixed compression level. Here you have to adjust between visible quality-loss and datarate that the hardware is able to handle.
The quality of the draco is much higher than the quality of my video-sources (Digital camcorder), so...
I have both, Amiga4000T/VlabMotion and Draco/Dracomotion so I can compare.
To summarize it: I paid abou 3500DM (ca. 1750 Euro) for the draco. (old but completely unused) excluding HD and RAM. That was alot of money but I am really happy with it. It is a tool that works good on the task it has been made for.
@Unit21:
I wrote a short description at
http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43928
If you have more questions feel free to ask me. (Address is on my homepage)
I am not sure what a fair price for the draco is. Sometimes there are dracos for sale on ebay.
The best Draco-Website I know is http://home.t-online.de/home/ing.sed/ (German)
There is also a Yahoogroup for the draco. (German, but English is welcome too, of course) Sometimes member sell their machines, you could ask there.
http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/draconer/
The draco should be equipped with the "DV-Module", if possible. That gives you DV-In and -Out in addition to the analouge ports. You would probably not be able to get this module separately any more. Movieshop5 should be included, if possible. Version 4 is good too but V5 is better. If its not included you need to buy Version5, and that is quite expensive. (And you need a personal keycode that corresponds to your Draco-MachineID, so no chance get it for free somewhere) 64 MByte Ram is enough, harddisks should be huge. I replaced my 18GB HD with a 80GB-Harddisk recently. But even 18 GByte will give you about 40 Minutes at best quality. Fortunataly there are now SCSI->IDE adaptors available.(about 80 Euro IIRC) So you can buy a cheap huge IDE Harddisk and such a connecter. This combination is much cheaper than a big SCSI-HD.
What can you do with a draco? It is made for video editing and there it is good. The draco is not an Amiga, it has no custom Chips, so no OCS/ECS/AGA nor Paula-sound. Most older programs will not work either due to custom chip-access or due to bad/incompatible programming. New programs should run.
Movieshop and especially Version 5 is great! It comes with alot of effects and additional effect-disks are still available for sale. You can combine all effects in the timelines. Additionally you can export the pictures and process them with ADPro for instance, wich is included with the Draco. Finally you would reimport them.
There is a shareware-tool wich mounts your scene as an usual Amiga-Drive. You can then load/process every single picture of your scene without exporting it before.
Finally there is a special adapted version of Amiga-OS 3.9 available for the Draco.
I use the Draco for Video-capture/editing and as additional render node for lightwave.
Kind regards selco, http://selco.da.ru
-
@selco
I must admit that i was a little bit "out" in that forum.
Sometimes the mind sticks into my job, I completely forgot that the machine will be used for home projects.
There is no need for fast work, so no real-time editing is needed.
The projet will be presented in a family / friend audience, so broadcast quality is out of the question.
In this case I surely agree with DraCo!
Sorry if I missled you.
Amiga regards
-
so now it's a
'M-JPEG sucks!' .v. 'DRACO ROCKS" argument...
ok first motion Jpeg does not 'suck' as you happen to think... film resolution movies are editied on avid hardware on motion jpeg(e.g Blade2)...I dunno if your trying to say that some slow-trash amiga format is better but if you are thats laughable.
draco ... pathetic... slow-obselete and EXTREMELY expensive hardware... it was obselete the day it was made..
the cpu is a MAJOR limit and dont let anyone kid you otherwise...
anyone who trys to con you into buying a draco over a modern editing system is either a shyster or an idiot.
If you got the kind of money to spend to buy a draco... a VT2 should be within your price-range...and a VT2 will utterly urinate upon a draco machine in every possible way.
heck a Targa 2000+Speed Razor 4.7+NT 4.0+firewire I/O is MUCH more capable and flexable then any draco.
-
mips_procs seems to be down on the old Amiga systems. I cannot comment on the Draco but I will come back on his comments about the toaster-flyer. A fully outfitted Toaster Flyer does not come anywhere near the cost of a new VT2. There is one such system for sale on this site right now for 2000. Furthermore, the lightwave that you get with the VT2 is not a full version of lightwave and in my opinion is far inferior to the lightwave 5.0 you get with the toaster-flyer. You do no need a vhs system to get the signal into the toaster flyer - I feed the composite signal from my Sony VX-2000 mini DV camcorder directly into the Flyer with no need for tbc or any other equiptment getting in the way. The signal quality is great. The editing is very fast. The processor speed is irrelevant except when rendering in lighwave, in which case you can network the Amiga to your pc using screamer net and use the faster processor power of the pc; or you can just let it render overnight while you sleep. For basic editing I do not believe there is anything faster on any platform. I have a video for sale that I made last year on my system. You can order it on my website at www.drjule.com if you want to check the quality. Again, once I had all the clips arranged it took less than 5mins to "render" an hours worth of video and begin playing it back to be recorded to mini-dv. Jule
-
VT2 is not a full version of lightwave and in my opinion is far inferior to the lightwave 5.0 you get with the toaster-flyer
ok in what way (if any) is Lightwave 5.0 inferior to Lightwave Express?
Lightwave Express is just like Lightwave 6.0 except it has FX Monkey....it's got 'OpenGL acceleration' and it 'runs on modern hardware' meaning it can render more then 3 frames a day.
The processor speed is irrelevant except when rendering in lighwave, in which case you can network the Amiga to your pc using screamer net and use the faster processor power of the pc
ohhh so your going to claim for editing with the flyer that the Amiga is on par with PC's ?
For basic editing I do not believe there is anything faster on any platform.
VT2 is 'non-linear' 'umcompressed' and 'real time' ... I dont think I need to say more then that... go search those terms as they pertain to video.
A fully outfitted Toaster Flyer does not come anywhere near the cost of a new VT2.
ok lets compare prices.
Video Monitor =600$ easily
Amiga Monitor=145$(for a 15")
64MB of EDO is about 100$
A4000D is going to run you about 600$ off ebay and about 1400$ from a reputable amiga dealer (in that case it would be an A4000T not a D)
Video Toaster 'Flyer' is 700$
Video Toaster 4000 is 450$
a video card for the Amiga about 80$
a 3 gig IDE disk for the Amiga itself? will assume the Amiga comes with one.
4 Scsi2 5gig drives for video will run you about 100$ maybe more depending.
An 060/PPC accelerator for the Amiga assumeing you want one?... well thats gonna cost you 1000$
3775$ total... not counting the fact that you may or may not need decks depending on if you want to use the amiga for AB roll editing.
A VT2 is 2500$+ a system to run it and some disks.
I ran my VT2 on a P4 2ghz 2GB of ram.. with a SCSI2 controller... granted I spent about 5000$ total on my system+ my VT2... my edit system was much more capable all around for editing...
Why would anyone want to logically go out and buy 10 year old editing hardware and spend almost the same ammount of money?.
If I 'HAD" to id of spent much less... as I could now go for the same system at a much lower cost and also use IDE drives with my VT2 instead of SCSI.
The Amiga as a video editing solution is slow and non versitile and anyone who push's amiga on someone asking a legit question like that is just wrong to tell them to go and spend such a high ammount of money on an obselete solution like that.
If the Amiga+VT+Flyer all total where say 400$ or so I'd say go for it...but it's not.
Adobe Premiere and a PC with a single IDE video drive offers greater editing capabilities.
and you can get that for much less.
-
Jule wrote:
A fully outfitted Toaster Flyer does not come anywhere near the cost of a new VT2. There is one such system for sale on this site right now for 2000. Furthermore, the lightwave that you get with the VT2 is not a full version of lightwave and in my opinion is far inferior to the lightwave 5.0 you get with the toaster-flyer. You do no need a vhs system to get the signal into the toaster flyer - I feed the composite signal from my Sony VX-2000 mini DV camcorder directly into the Flyer with no need for tbc or any other equiptment getting in the way. The signal quality is great. The editing is very fast. The processor speed is irrelevant except when rendering in lighwave, in which case you can network the Amiga to your pc using screamer net and use the faster processor power of the pc; or you can just let it render overnight while you sleep. For basic editing I do not believe there is anything faster on any platform. Again, once I had all the clips arranged it took less than 5mins to "render" an hours worth of video and begin playing it back to be recorded to mini-dv.
This isn't just to Jule, but I quoted his message since it made comments about several things that needed to get cleared on both sides.
1) MJPEG - Until just 5 years ago almost every NLE used MJPEG, on the Amiga either the Draco or a Digital Broadcaster had equal quality to the high end AVID system.
2) Flyer quality - with a clean signal especially from a DV camera, HQ5 mode is only a 2.5 compression and give a lossless compression in many cases, its editor (duplicated and improved in VT2) is frankly amazingly fast to edit with. Also the flyer technically isnt rendering when you push play, its copying pieces of clips to alternate chains to allow a smooth playback through the toaster. It renders if you use RenderFX(though really quickly) , it renders if you use lightwave or ImageFX too.
3) VT2 (and for that matter VT3 announced today) has the ability to do uncompressed video along with dozens of compressed formats of video all mixed up together, it also does D1 video, which is technically better then the D2 be get with the Flyer. However the VT2 card is 2000, and the you need a P4 for it to make its home in. However the VT2 & 3 are also dual standard so NTSC/PAL doesnt matter, the Flyer is only an NTSC device, so our friend in Sweden probably doesnt want to use it.
-Tig
PS I am going to be selling my very nice Flyer system in the next few weeks, if you want the system that RenderFX and Promix were written on, look for my post or email me in the next few weeks.
-
@mips
I know I'm nitpicking, but the prices you quote for an Amiga system are too high.
Amiga Monitor - Check a thrift store. I had 5 of them at one point, and paid no more than $10 for any of them.
4000D - $200, maybe a little more. For $600, it should have a toaster already in it.
I picked up a 4000D with a CyberstormPPC accelerator + extras for over a grand less than the figures you're quoting.
Granted, the prices of equipment can still be high to a lot of people, but if a person is happy with the equipment and the cost, why not?
-
I want to echo echo madgun68's statement that @mips price quotes are way too high. Again, I refer @mips to the ad by Thomas Bisso on this web site right now (ad 127) for a fully outfitted Amiga Toaster Flyer system with hard drive space for 2 hours of video at HQ5 (basically beta SP quality) and many hours of audio. It has everything needed including a good tbc for someone using an analog camcorder. The $2000 covers it all. There is no pc system, or mac system, that can do what that flyer system can do at twice that cost. And you can find full Toaster flyer systems for less than that on ebay. The going rate these days for full systems (Amiga 4000, Toaster board, Flyer board, some hard drives) is about $1500, and sometimes less. The system for sale on this site has some more ammenities, but my guess is that it ultimately will go for less than what is currently being asked. The VT2 board alone costs more than the full Flyer system, computer, video boards, and harddrives included. Jule
-
The $2000 covers it all. There is no pc system, or mac system, that can do what that flyer system can do at twice that cost.
I am going to disagree here. First of all VT2 does everything that the Flyer does. I have both of them plus my mac editor (and until recently a digital broadcaster) in my edit suite, and the new toaster will do everything a flyer will do. In addition, a P4 computer for a home for a VT2 will not cost you $2000, I probably have less then half that spent on mine. So a VT2 system more expensive then a flyer system?? Probably so, over 4K as you were saying?? No way. In addition, I did the last Lightwave 5.0 tapes available, so I am pretty familiar with the program, and I cant think of anything in 5.0 that isnt in Lightwave Express (which is bundled with the new Toaster).
-Tig
-
The $2000 covers it all. There is no pc system, or mac system, that can do what that flyer system can do at twice that cost
A PC from 1998 with a Targa 2000 and Adobe Premiere 5.1 can be gotten for like what? 600$ off ebay? it'll stomp the ancient amiga toaster editor in every possible way except maybe that it cant do live switching but who cares?... thats one lame feature.
I setup my entire PC VT2 machine for around 5K ...and it's a world away from an Amiga 4000 in terms of raw power and editing capabilities...
Aura 2.5b/Lightwave Express/Speed RazorSE/Toaster Edit... it's gotten better in just about every possible way...and it's a WORLD away... OpenGL accelerated modelling... non-linear/realtime/uncompressed editing.
The toaster was a 4 input switcher for AB roll editing and live switching... it has Lightwave tagged on for the ride and they hacked it into a comparatively pathetic NLE with the flyer ...
You wont get the uncompressed quality... you wont get the stability... you wont get the speed... and you definitly wont get the power...
Tigger I agree entirely... but I think it should be noted how much cheaper you can 'match' that 2000 for.. for 600$ you can snag a cheap old edit rig off ebay that will do more just by the token that its a compress-NLE ... granted you will need to render effects but so what? .. a targa or a dps par arent garbage when compared to a VT classic... at least not in my opinon.
about LW Express .v. LW 5.0... I agree completely but you can also mention the things that LW Express has that LW 5.0 did not have.
for example... you can record strokes in Aura and then export them as a motion path to Lightwave Express and add a null to it and then add an emitter and have particles emit from the stroke path in 3D and also FXMonkey for doing quick and dirty logo's...and also the EPS Loader I dunno if Amiga had that but I doubt it since illustrator wasnt on the Amiga.
Then you have the OpenGL acceleration of modern Lightwave.
I see them as bieng worlds away... I have LW 5.0 on an old octane box here (just a hobby machine) and there is no comparison of LW 5.0 to 7.5... I dont have my VT2 anymore so I cant compare LW Express but I can compare these.
BTW: Tig did you check out Aura 2.5b I just started to UVMap with the new Lightwave preview addition ... its pretty badass..
-
mips_proc wrote:
BTW: Tig did you check out Aura 2.5b I just started to UVMap with the new Lightwave preview addition ... its pretty badass..
Yeah the only problem is I have to stop rendering effects to play with Lightwave and UVMapping, might need to build a new Lightwave RenderFarm if this keeps up :), or may just build a whole new computer for VT3, eager to go see it in April.
-Tig
-
I really don't know much about editing, and even
I can tell you that for the price of a loaded 4000
you could probably get 2 PC systems that would
waste it...$1000 for a PPC accelerator is about
right, even just the '060 for the 4000
is like $600-700.
Don't get me wrong, the 4000 or Draco is
an excellent hobby system for somebody who's
into retro - editing, but I would never
recommend them to anyone for their main
system, especially if you're trying to
create proffessional, up - to - date
projects.
-
Ok guys, one last try. First, I am not objecting to the VT2 perse, though I wish it ran on Linux. However, I am perturbed at mips cavilier statements about how inferior the Amiga video editing systems are, when it is seems clear to me he is not familiar with them. The second issue is the prices discussed. I am on the Amiga section of ebay every day and I know what complete Flyer videoediting systems go for - about $1500. Now what about the VT2. Newtek will sell the VT2 package sans computer or drives for a mere $2995. I understand that some other companies might have deals that drop that down to $2500 from time to time, but a cursory search of the internet did not find any today. But let me err on the side of Tigger and Mipps and assume 2500. Next, there is the pc. If you want a pc that fits Newtek's basic recommendations it seems to me it will cost about 2000. Tigger says about half that for his computer. Let's compromise and say 1500. Ok, thats 4000 right there and that does not include video drives. In order for the VT2 to really outdo the Flyer on basic editing it requires a raid 0 stripped array and a hard drive controller capable of dealing with that. I'll let Mips and Tigger tell me how much that costs, but I am sure it is not small change. I am guessing that $500 would barely get you in the door. That's $4500 vs $1500, or $3000 difference. I tell you what, you guys give me the 3k and I will get the VT2 and we can end this debate. Or I can keep going on editing on a system that is not only effective and fast, but is a special pleasure to use because it is on my favorite computer, running my favorite operating system. And with that, I think I will bow out. Jule
-
Jule wrote:
The second issue is the prices discussed. I am on the Amiga section of ebay every day and I know what complete Flyer videoediting systems go for - about $1500. Now what about the VT2. Newtek will sell the VT2 package sans computer or drives for a mere $2995. I understand that some other companies might have deals that drop that down to $2500 from time to time, but a cursory search of the internet did not find any today. But let me err on the side of Tigger and Mipps and assume 2500.
First of all you are comparing a used system to a new from the dealer, a used Amiga Video Toaster to the new price of a VT2, the VT2 prices on Ebay are lower then from a dealer and I found dealer prices at $1895. Most dealers had then at $1995 until a few days ago when they increased to $2495, but are including for free the VT3 upgrade.
Next, there is the pc. If you want a pc that fits Newtek's basic recommendations it seems to me it will cost about 2000. Tigger says about half that for his computer. Let's compromise and say 1500. Ok, thats 4000 right there and that does not include video drives. In order for the VT2 to really outdo the Flyer on basic editing it requires a raid 0 stripped array and a hard drive controller capable of dealing with that. I'll let Mips and Tigger tell me how much that costs, but I am sure it is not small change. I am guessing that $500 would barely get you in the door. That's $4500 vs $1500, or $3000 difference. I tell you what, you guys give me the 3k and I will get the VT2 and we can end this debate. Or I can keep going on editing on a system that is not only effective and fast, but is a special pleasure to use because it is on my favorite computer, running my favorite operating system.
My motherboard was $150, my processor $150, my
memory $150, Video card is $100, $200 for drives. Thats $750, the Raid controller was on my motherboard or it would have been much cheaper. Thats 2 hours of uncompressed (or 12 hours of DV footage) for the the system. I dont think $750 is that much more expensive then a 4000 with a PPC or 060 card especially a tower configuration, and its alot more computer, its definitely not costing twice as much as the 4000 right?? So the difference here is the Newtek products. Old Toaster+Flyer+TBC4+WF/FS+Flyer Drives to get you in the same ballpark as VT2, can you get that alot cheaper then $1895??? Maybe, do you often find that for less the 1/2 that number?? No. The flyer was great editor in its time (understand it shipped in 1994), With the exception of the enhancments I and others did for 4.2, there hasnt been a major upgrade for the system and there never will be. 8 years after it shipped, its showing its age, and newteks new editor (which is much cheaper then what we payed for toasters and flyers before) is a much superior product. As for the final comment, Jule, I dont care what editor you use, I just dont think you should lie about how you cant buy an editor for 4K that will compete with the flyer. Thats a lie, my VT2 beats my flyer in every catagory, and I own every addon for the flyer plus have unique pieces of software that I wrote and never sold.
-Tig
-
-
Hate to barge in here, but out of curiosity, is there any alternative to the Toaster for PAL Amigas?
:pint:
-
I use Newtek Aura Paint and Adobe Premiere on my PC, I'm no pro and I find em just fine.
-
Aura's a fine little app... me and a friend are going to start an Aura user site pretty soon...I think it's of the most under-stated of all the apps I've used... it's extremely powerful for its price...and yet NOBODY seems to even know it exists.. it's one of the best rotoscoping and video paint apps I've ever used... it's an easy to use and learn 2D animation program.. it's an (OK)(for the low end) compositor... it's a killer texturing tool... and a good general purpose 2D package... it's got alot of nice features that come with it... color correction,keyframer,stroke recorder,ability to use photoshop plugins, it has a wonderful array of plugins for just screwing around doing various effects.. I love the ability to keyframe virtually anything and mix and match.
The only thing it needs now is 3D Paint and OpenGL accelerated 3D... and we're rockin.... 3D compositing :P
-
Bodie wrote:
Hate to barge in here, but out of curiosity, is there any alternative to the Toaster for PAL Amigas?
Amiga solutions for PAL video editing. Draco & Digital Broadcaster both would do PAL or had PAL versions available. Due to Motorola, the Amiga Video Toaster was never available as a PAL device. The x86 Video Toaster does both PAL & NTSC.
-Tig
-
Hi mips_proc:
I think your being a little hard on Jule. Jule was only trying to recommend an Amiga solution because if you read the original post from Unit21 he said he was looking for an Amiga based video production solution because he did not like Windows. I like you also own a Video Toaster [2], great system but I would not get ride of my Flyer system because I have it. I enjoy both systems and they work well together. In fact ask Newtek about the flaws in Toaster [2]'s CG. For now the CG on the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer is more functional and usable per Newtek’s Video Toaster [2] product manager, ask him yourself. And for you to recommend Adobe Premier to someone that was looking for an Amiga video solution is quite laughable. Premiere is a joke program that is given away free with most video capture cards. The Flyer does so much more than this limited unintuitive video editing software (Premiere). Try doing a mixture of a live action sequence with a animated CG character in Premiere and get back with me on what your results were. The Flyer has no problem doing this. As far as the Video Toaster [2] goes it is of course fantastic and I like you love mine. Many can’t afford it though and if they love Amiga OS like Unit21 does there is nothing wrong with them starting out with an Amiga based Video Toaster Flyer solution. If he starts his video production business and does well with it then he could get a T[2] later on. Sure I would not recommend a Flyer if the user were looking for a system to do heavy Lightwave 3D work but he is looking to do editing. The Flyer is a wonderful editing environment. That is one of the reasons that my company still supports the Flyer as well as the VT[2]. In fact we have a product coming out that allows you to use a T[2] card in a PCI based Amiga. As far as not needing a switcher? Most people that do any type of quality editing need to switch between video sources. The valid points you made is if someone buys a used Amiga system they better be an Amiga techie or be friends with a local dealer or user group in case they have Amiga questions or there system ever needs repaired. As far as the Video Toaster & Flyer cards goes, Newtek fixes these for free so your ass is covered. If the Amiga based Video Toaster Flyer had not been such a great product you and I would not be enjoying our Video Toaster [2]’s right now because Newtek would no longer exist. Sorry for the long post but recommending Premiere over the Flyer had me rolling on the floor laughing. Use the Flyer for a few minutes and you will see what I mean.
Best regards
Bill Panagouleas
DiscreetFX
Founder/CEO
bill@discreetfx.com
www.discreetfx.com
-
And for you to recommend Adobe Premier to someone that was looking for an Amiga video solution is quite laughable
Premiere is for Windows not AmigaOS/Amiga and for a home user it's fine.. for DV editing there is no need to buy decks or advanced hardware to edit with... just a cheap PC and a low-end DV-Cam and you're off tape/edit the family picknicks all day long... and as you later mention it's very cheap...
The Flyer does so much more than this limited unintuitive video editing software (Premiere).
the Amiga+Video Toaster+ Flyer ...yes it can do 'more' (namely working with analog sourced stuff) it also costs what? (we settled on I believe 2000 could get a USED toaster+Amiga+drives+flyer) 1750$ more?
Try doing a mixture of a live action sequence with a animated CG character in Premiere and get back with me on what your results were
I dont comp in premiere... and sure as hell wouldnt comp on an amiga...
Many can’t afford it though
yes thats very true... but with the Amiga Video Toaster+Amiga+Flyer+040 ... what will they spend? I mean we can all see deals here and there...but what does a -COMPLETE- rig cost you from a dealer? I priced one out on softhut and used 600$ a base-price for a A4000D off ebay and hit the 3700$ mark... thats not cheap either Mr. Panagouleas. I would like to here what your company sells a complete VT+Amiga+Flyer+memory whole ball of wax for? (not counting video monitors/decks/etc). I doubt it's much cheaper.
In fact we have a product coming out that allows you to use a T[2] card in a PCI based Amiga
now that I have to see... my T2 needed a P4 2ghz+1GB memory+scsi raid (now some work with IDE at the time no)... can you give details? will it be in another tower? that actually does sound like a cool idea if its workable.
As far as not needing a switcher? Most people that do any type of quality editing need to switch between video sources
I was talking about 'live switching' switching from multiple cams for example... not switching from multiple source decks.. but since you want to argue that the 'quality' editors need to use multiple-sources (???) ... then maybe you can explain what a video array is for ?...because non-linear editing took off long ago...and with capabilities of 4+ hours on one you can mix and match video to your hearts content...switching so to speak from uncompressed file to uncompressed file.
Sorry for the long post but recommending Premiere over the Flyer had me rolling on the floor laughing
well I cant see why? unless of course you think every home-user should go out and buy multi thousand dollar old editing solutions?I personally say if your gonna go low-end (home user) Adobe Primere or Vegas Video are fine solutions... considering
in short... I agree that the flyer/amiga/video toaster for it.. they where good in their 'time' but now? come on...an entire VT2 is comparable to the price of a 'NEW" A4000+Video Toaster+Flyer+Drives+memory... so if we're gonna go dollar to dollar... why not buy a VT2?...
If we're going to go with capabilities of both?... Speed Razor/Vegas Video with a TargaRTX or DPS Perception... much cheaper.... about the same capabilities.
If we want to just sit and do some home editing and dont want to spend much?... a cheap PC with adobe premiere is fine.
I dont fault someone like Jule for sticking with the system... if you 'ALREADY" have it.. and it 'gets the job done' there is no reason to get rid of it... but a new person just getting into video starting out fresh? I wouldnt recommend it..
One of the reasons this is a vile point for me is that when I started to get into video I had a similer expierence bieng steered the wrong way by a guy who ran a computer shop and tried to sell me on an a Targa 1000Pro when the 2000 had just come out...the 1000 wasnt bad ...dont get me wrong it did it's job...but the price/performance ratio was horrible and I still have it sitting here unused years and years later.
-
Oh boy here we go. I know Premiere is only for Windows and not Amiga OS, that does not make it any less crap. I would not recommend Premiere to anyone even a home user. The crap interface and the render everything attitude of this package has turned off many budding new video editors. Premiere is not fine for the beginner or anyone for that matter, it is crap period. By recommending it to anyone you are just giving him or her a world of frustration. Since you brought up Vegas Video I tried that out and found it's word processor interface to some it up in one word "Lacking". Also the learning curve is too long and it lacks needed features. It has plenty of useless buzzword features though. The problem with many software solutions on Windows is the programmers of these packages don't have a clue about the broadcast video editing/TV industry. Real editors don’t want their video editing software packages to look like word processors with lots of pull down menus and stupid geek terms. They want their video editing hardware/software to look like what it replaces video editing hardware. Switchers, Digital Disk Recorders, Proc Amps, Vectorscopes Etc. That is what has always been so nice about Newtek. Boot up a Video Toaster [2] and bide goodbye to the Windows interface. T[2] looks and acts like what it replaces, editing equipment.
The Flyer also has a wonderful real-time easy to use interface and you don’t to render your video project or effects. In fact this is what hurts many of the DV only solutions, you have to render out to DV tape. A very long process I might add. Also I never said you had to buy decks. MiniDV works fine with the Flyer in fact you get to hook it direct, no TBC required. Can you hookup via Firewire? No but a live feed recorded to the Flyer will look better than the compression DV tape offers anyway. By the way my company does not sell computers or computer equipment. We are a developer and sell only the hardware/software that we develop. I do see complete Video Toaster Flyer systems sell on ebay all the time though for about $1100, a great value for sure. Normally I don’t get involved in on-line debates but Jule was getting pummeled for no reason. Am I trying to say that the PC is not suited for video/editing? Of course not, there are many great packages like Combustion, DFX+ and VT[2] of course but these solutions will cost you and the original poster was asking for Amiga solutions. The SGI also has some killer solutions for video/editing/effects like Flint, Flame and Smoke but you will need about $200,000 to start. As far as needing a switcher, even shooting a simple thing like a graduation requires several cameras to do it right. Your going to save yourself lots of time in post if you take advantage of a real-time switcher. As you pointed out if you find a used Amiga Toaster system at a price close to a new or used Video Toaster [2] system then of course go for the T[2], only a fool would not go for it if the price is about the same. With the announced T[3] software upgrade coming out this system will continue to go from strength to strength. As far as Ami[2] goes (our product that lets you put a T[2] in your Amiga). It only takes advantage of a few of the features of T[2] so does not need a 2Ghz processor. Depending on how well the product is received and how it sells will determine what features we add over time. I think the On-Topic thing to do since this is amiga.org and the original poster asked for Amiga video editing solutions since they hate Windows is to recommend Amiga solutions with the understanding that it is a used system. There is no reason to be Adobe pimp daddys in an Amiga only forum.
Best regards
Bill Panagouleas
DiscreetFX
Founder/CEO
bill@discreetfx.com
www.discreetfx.com
-
well you obviousely have you're mind made up..premiere bieng 'crap' and vegas video 'lacking' *(because real pro's dont like the interface)...I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore then I already have.
on another note... will your PCI toaster work in AmigaOS4.0 on the AmigaOne?...
-
?
-
mips_proc wrote:
well you obviousely have you're mind made up..premiere bieng 'crap' and vegas video 'lacking' *(because real pro's dont like the interface)...I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore then I already have.
on another note... will your PCI toaster work in AmigaOS4.0 on the AmigaOne?...
Try them if anyone can pull you away from your awesome Video Toaster [2] and you will see.
Not at first since Ami[2] will require a Mediator based Amiga 4000D or T with a Video Toaster 4000 card and a Flyer card. It could at some point in the future no longer require this as the software included with it matures. The initial release will focus on adding features to the Amiga Toaster that it does not have like Firewire and Componete in/Uncompressed recording.
-
@ Everyone
Thanks a lot for your opinions and advice.
I have been looking at some PC-based 'DV-solutions' within my price-range. The only thing I haven't tried yet is Adobe Premiere, which I will get my hands on later today I hope....
But as my budget is rather small for the DV-world I probably have to settle for something cheaper. After all, the PC applications that are up to the job cost well over $500 here in Norway.
I can buy a complete DraCo 060 for that...
Plus, I haven't really found an application that I *like* yet...
If it is of any interest I will let you all know how it turns out when I finally decide what to get, at the end of this week.
@ mips_proc
Don't take it personal if I buy a DraCo after all..... :-D
-
Unit21 the Draco is a nice system. While other company's boasted about vaporware Amiga clones like the BoXer, Macrosystems Germany delivered a fully functional Amiga OS clone with the Draco. If Amiga software ran from Workbench and did not need the custom chips chances were that it would run ok on Draco. Macrosystems delivered what others were not able to. I just wish they continued to make the Draco because it is a nice system.
-
*(because real pro's dont like the interface)..
Actually we do ;-).
I'm not a fan of the Microsoft environment (far from it). But until video applications for Linux (such as Cinelera) mature, or the Amiga makes a comeback, I'm stuck with it.
At work I use an Avid Symphony, and for freelance work (the 'home' system) I use mainly Premier and After Effects. Going from work to home isn't that much of an environment change (of course I do prefer the system at work - but who has that kind of cash to throw around?)
After spending years with the production board and deck paradigm, the last thing I want to see is a graphic representation of it. I'd rather stare at 'clippy the microsoft paperclip' until my eyes bleed.
Simplicity and abstraction - an interface that enables me to manipulate my work quickly and efficiently. That's what makes a good interface.
I do have a 2000 with a toaster, I use it to live switch on multiple camera shoots - In this capacity it's a great low cost solution, but I agree with you on the editing front, you can get much more bang for buck elsewhere.
Siggy.
-
@Siggy
I much agree and I have alot of respect for Avid's products. I wasnt making a statement myself when I wrote that commenting on what was already said.
I personally like more technical interfaces that give greater control.
my favorite 3D app is XSI! ... I do like newtek stuff but It isnt because of the UI's so much as the functionality.
Lightwave for example... I like Lightwave because I can turn off all menus and viewport nav and have 4 viewports(NOT because it reminds me of something 30 years old)... do the rest by key bindings and I'm ready to roll.
I personally see where your comming from with adobre premiere and after effects... for editing DV it's fine(in AE"s case its fine all around for anything) ...despite what people might make you think.
I'd like to see Avid cut its prices.. their prices put them in an extremely vertical market...all their products are very very expensive... but hey... quality dosent come cheap!
-
@Unit21
I dont take it personally.... get whatever you like... I was just worried someone over-zealous for amiga was going to push it on you as thought it was completely modern when it's not.
If you can get a draco for 600$ it's worth it just to keep as a collectors Item..if nothing else...since it's value will rise.
-
Has someone tried these systems?
AmigaOne+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ Cinelerra (or similar videoediting software)
or
Amigaone+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ MOL+ iMovie or FinalCut.
Thank You.
-
@ Clooned
Clooned wrote:
Has someone tried these systems?
AmigaOne+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ Cinelerra (or similar videoediting software)
or
Amigaone+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ MOL+ iMovie or FinalCut.
I might try a setup over the weekend. I have plans for installing Linux on my Pegasos, but because my Gfx-card isn't supported too well I have put it off until now...
@ Everyone
I got a new laptop at work today. A fairly new thingy with P4@1,7 Ghz and 256Mb of RAM, firewire and so on...
Since I work for a Linux-company I had to pull some strings to get to install Windows on it, but I now have permisson to have Win2k for 'testing purposes', as they like to call it.
So, is Adobe Premiere/ After Effects worth the 'hefty' pricetag, or is there something else that I should have a serious look at?
Now bear in mind that I'm still just a humble hobby-user... I ask the pros for advice ;-)
-
Since I work for a Linux-company I had to pull some strings to get to install Windows on it, but I now have permisson to have Win2k for 'testing purposes', as they like to call it.
So, is Adobe Premiere/ After Effects worth the 'hefty' pricetag, or is there something else that I should have a serious look at?
Now bear in mind that I'm still just a humble hobby-user... I ask the pros for advice ;-)
FIrst of all don't buy anything this month, because NAB is first week of April. You can get a free version of Aura DV by going to a video toaster demo still I believe, otherwise its on the cover disk of a british video magazine two months ago, and you can still get a back issue for $9, which is well worth spending. Rumors continue to spread that a software only version of the PC Video Toaster (focussed towards DV) will debut at NAB along with 3.0. If it does, you would be better off getting TEd (Toaster Edit) with its included Aura, CG & Lightwave Express then Adobes software and its liable to be cheaper. You already can capture video to your computer via firewire, if you dont have a firewire source, you may want to look at either a firewire bridge, or a DV camera with analog IN & OUT.
-Tig
-
@Clooned,
If you want to use Final Cut Pro, buy a Mac.
-
Unit21 wrote:
Just want some of your opinions and advice on this.
I am looking at getting me some video-editing equipment for home-use.
If you can possibley locate a Video Toaster Flyer... You will not be disappointed...
I have had one for 6 years or so now .. And have found it to be quite useful...
Don't know how well the the T2 works ... Although, I have heard that it is GREAT also..
THe Amiga product shines though...
:-o :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
-
Siggy it sounds like you have the Amiga 2000 version of the Toaster without a Flyer card. That vs an Amiga 4000T with Video Toaster 4000 & Flyer are worlds apart. You don't need decks with the Flyer like you did with Toaster 2.1 or 3.1 software. Everything is NLE, if you have a MinDV cam you feed it direct into the Toaster w/Flyer, you don't even need a TBC. If you had a Flyer you would love it over Premire trust me. Also, on an Amiga 4000 the VT has many, many real-time color effects. A feature that is missing on Amiga 2000s. As far as After Effects goes it is cool. I like Combustion more myself but I have seen a lot of good work done with After Effects. Adobe aquired the company and the product though, it was not a software effort that Adobe came up with the way Premire was. The production board and deck paradigm is not something you would be dealing with if you added a Flyer to your Toaster system.
-
@ Unit21
I have been looking at some PC-based 'DV-solutions' within my price-range. The only thing I haven't tried yet is Adobe Premiere, which I will get my hands on later today I hope....
But as my budget is rather small for the DV-world I probably have to settle for something cheaper. After all, the PC applications that are up to the job cost well over $500 here in Norway.
I can buy a complete DraCo 060 for that...
Plus, I haven't really found an application that I *like* yet...
If it is of any interest I will let you all know how it turns out when I finally decide what to get, at the end of this week.
I have heard good things about the Draco/Casablanca system, Isn't it called Avio now?
Anyway I just built a Video editing system around the Matrox RTX10. In some ways I wish I would have went with the RTX100, but the money thing helped with the decision. I am very happy with Premier and the RTX10 brings realtime to a lot of features. The RTX100 makes the entire process real time. My entire system cost close to $1400US.
Being part of the Amiga community I really wanted to support Newtek and get a Vtoaster2, but the VT2 card itself cost my entire budget.
What ever you chose I hope it
does what you need it to do.
Spiffy :-)
By the way you live in one of the most wonderful countries I have been to. Hope you had good skiing this year.
-
@ Everyone...
After weeks of consideration and testing I ended up with this:
Sgi 320 with dual Pentium3 1Ghz and one Gb of memory, the 1600SW-display and a few Gigs of hard-drive space.
I will give it a shot with Adobe Premiere first, but if anyone has any experience with this hardware and knows of software that supports the Sgi better than Adobe Premiere, please let me know!!
Thanks again for advice and opinions on this, it is much appreciated!
-
Siggy it sounds like you have the Amiga 2000 version of the Toaster without a Flyer card.
Indeed this is the case. I bought it based on past experience with it to perform the function of a live switcher. It performs its duties admirably, and is cheaper than buying a production board (which I will eventually get anyway). Again - it I am using this for LIVE work.
That vs an Amiga 4000T with Video Toaster 4000 & Flyer are worlds apart. You don't need decks with the Flyer like you did with Toaster 2.1 or 3.1
software.
No doubt they are - but my post wasn't in dispute of any of these points.. It was replying to a post that said that 'Professional Editors want a software interface that looks like the equipment' - as a professional editor, I was saying that this isn't true.
What I was talking about was the preferred 'interface' not about any specific software or product.
In this regard I am neither pro-premier, nor anti-toaster.
If you had a Flyer you would love it over Premire trust me. Also, on an Amiga 4000 the VT has many, many real-time color effects.
I'll have to look at it myself to really judge that - but I doubt that it would be able to do the work that I need to get done effectively, again I'd have to see the system working to make a final judgement on that.
Note - I am not 'poo pooing' anyones setup - but when I mention my 'freelance work' I am talking about things like high quality television commercials, and my 'home system' being a system set up soley for the purpose of high end video production (and is used for nothing else).
My needs are obviously a LOT different than the average user (to which my advice was looking into all alternatives and your existing hardware to get the best 'bang-for-buck' that suits your needs).
The production board and deck paradigm is not something you would be dealing with if you added a Flyer to your Toaster system.
Again - I was replying to a post that spoke of the preferences of professional editors - as a professional editor that's worked on both high end production boards and high end non-linear systems, I was giving my opinion on that.
As it stands at the moment - I'm more than likely upgrading my edit system to Avid DV Express later this year, and I'll be keeping an eye on the new Amigas to see where they head in the realms of video - when Toaster came out it (like the Amiga itself) was way ahead of it's time, and I'd like to see the new systems do to Avid what the Toaster did for production boards (i.e. give a cheap and powerful alternative).
Cheers.
Siggy.
-
A couple of comments to both Siggy & Unit21. NAB start on April 7th. New software (and maybe some surprises) will be shown by a number of people. Newtek's VT 3.0 has been announced a standalone software only DV version may show its head at NAB as well. Vegas Video 4.0 with its DVD option is also something to look at. Though Adobe & AVID are well known names, I frankly think they are overpriced for what you get, and it will be interesting to see what they have available next month.
-Tig
-
@Tigger
NAB start on April 7th. New software (and maybe some surprises) will be shown by a number of people.
Yep - the day after my birthday, and right here in Las Vegas. I'm looking forward to going and checking it all out.
If anyone else is going we should do the hookup.
Cheers
Siggy.
-
Yep - the day after my birthday, and right here in Las Vegas. I'm looking forward to going and checking it all out.
If anyone else is going we should do the hookup.
I'm going though I will only be there for the first day. You need to be sure to go by the Newtek booth, and come to the Toaster Party, Monday night. If you dont have a pass for the show, let me know, and I'll email you info to get a freebie.
-Tig
PS To those not attending, Newtek at least will be streaming their demos, so you can watch at least that much of the show on your computer.