Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Star69 on February 07, 2005, 01:04:34 PM
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This link is quite old, but has anyone seen anything like this?
Some people just have too much time and money on their hands... (http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/)
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Yeah that's pretty cool... but they'd get better results with an Athlon64 :-P
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what a lie!!!!
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Back in the day, someone overclocked a Dec Alpha 262144 rated initially at 200MHz to 800MHz with cryogenic cooling. This was at a time when a P133 was 'state of the art' ;-)
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Karlos wrote:
Back in the day, someone overclocked a Dec Alpha 262144 rated initially at 200MHz to 800MHz with cryogenic cooling. This was at a time when a P133 was 'state of the art' ;-)
I still chuckle to my self when I see post on this forum about overclocking thier 68k's by staggering amounts... like 5MHz... what's the point... :-D
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@bloodline
5MHz is quite a respectible overclock if you are starting from a 25MHz clockspeed.
680x0 parts were typically rated close to their tested speeds, unlike most x86 parts of the same era that were rated much lower than their tested speeds, all in the name of long term reliability. Ironic considering the typical lifecycle of their descendents :lol:
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Karlos wrote:
@bloodline
5MHz is quite a respectible overclock if you are starting from a 25MHz clockspeed.
680x0 parts were typically rated close to their tested speeds, unlike most x86 parts of the same era that were rated much lower than their tested speeds, all in the name of long term reliability. Ironic considering the typical lifecycle of their descendents :lol:
:lol:
That said, Motorola engineers claimed to run the 68000 at 50Mhz...
Though judging by how hot the 8Mhz 68k in the A600 gets, I'd say they were using an HCMOS part or something...
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Yeah, pretty neat until the machine explodes or electrocutes someone from the condensation and liquid all over the mb...
I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
Yeah, pretty neat until the machine explodes or electrocutes someone from the condensation and liquid all over the mb...
I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
Wayne
Yeah, but surely there's no fun in that...
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Wayne wrote:
Yeah, pretty neat until the machine explodes or electrocutes someone from the condensation and liquid all over the mb...
I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
Wayne
As long as it doesnt melt, the ice isn't a problem. It's not particularly conductive (conductivity of water tends to rely mostly on ion transport which requires it to be liquid to be effective)...
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Star69 wrote:
Wayne wrote:
Yeah, pretty neat until the machine explodes or electrocutes someone from the condensation and liquid all over the mb...
I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
Wayne
Yeah, but surely there's no fun in that...
If you want fun crank up a 68030 to 5Ghz... :-D
-Edit- That's only 100 times speed increase... now all you need is a memory subsystem that could cope :-/
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Karlos wrote:
Wayne wrote:
Yeah, pretty neat until the machine explodes or electrocutes someone from the condensation and liquid all over the mb...
I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
Wayne
As long as it doesnt melt, the ice isn't a problem. It's not particularly conductive (conductivity of water tends to rely mostly on ion transport which requires it to be liquid to be effective)...
Indeed, pure water being a very poor conductor... add a few ions though :-D
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You can't beat a good 4M solution of hydroiodic acid for electrical conductivity :-D (For a water based conductor, I mean)
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Karlos wrote:
You can't beat a good 4M solution of hydroiodic acid for electrical conductivity :-D
One of my projects was to build a fuel cell.. I used 8M Potassium Hydroxide... heated to 80 degree C... that stuff was a pretty good conductor :-)
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ice melts, or the electronics explode due to being too cold. A CPU that'll run 200 degrees or higher isn't going to cancel out a -190 degree cooler. The surrounding components that never reach high temperatures anyway will certainly not function too long at -140 to -190 degrees when their normal operating temp is room temp..
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I would love to see them do the same thing with an amigaone might be able to get 1.3 gig with lots of smoke. :-D
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Yeah.. buh, well, you have to make sacrifices to be the first to pass the 5GHz barrier :lol:
Come on, what's electrocution, picking bits of silicon shrapnel out of your face, 3rd degree burns and near death by asphyxiation from combatting the ensuing fire with the remaining dewar of liquid nitrogen suffered in the quest for another willy notch in the MHz scale?
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I'll wait until next year when Intel and AMD legitimately break the 4ghz barrier, then 6 more months for the 5Ghz barrier.
I wouldn't hold your breath. Intel cancelled their 4GHz P4 and I'd imagine it will take a while for a chip based on the Pentium-M architecture to ratchet up that high.
The MHz/GHz war is running out of steam, that's why all the major chipmakers are turning to dual-core.
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Let's see what diamond based semiconductor will allow before we totally write off the GHz contest...
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Karlos wrote:
Let's see what diamond based semiconductor will allow before we totally write off the GHz contest...
Yeah, that stuff can take quite a bit of heating :-o
But I think that technology is a while off... Dual cores will take up the slack for the next few years...
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Hum,
So is anyone following the CELL technology?
10 x faster than the fastest pentiun or graphics card (today) and 100x faster next year....
two teraflops in 64-core (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/05/sony_cell_cpu_to_deliver/)
:-)
(and
here (http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050121_102515.html) )
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Cell tchnology ... look what I found :
"To date the PC has defeated everything in it's path [PCShare]. No competitor, no matter how good has even got close to replacing it. If the Cell is placed into desktop computers it may be another victim of the PC. However, I think for a number of reasons that the Cell is not only the biggest threat the PC has ever faced, but also one which might actually have the capacity to defeat it.
The Sincerest Form of Flattery is Theft
20 years ago an engineer called Jay Miner who had been working on video games (he designed the Atari 2600 chip) decided to do something better and produce a desktop computer which combined a video game chipset with a workstation CPU. The prototype was called Lorraine and it was eventually released to the market as the Commodore Amiga. The Amiga had hardware accelerated high colour screens, a GUI based multitasking OS, multiple sampled sound channels and a fast 32 bit CPU. At the time PCs had screens displaying text, a speaker which beeped and they ran MSDOS on a 16 bit CPU. The Amiga went on to sell in millions but the manufacturer went bankrupt in 1994.
Like many other platforms which were patently superior to it, the Amiga was swept aside by the PC.
The PC has seen off every competitor that has crossed paths with it, no matter how good the OS or hardware. The Amiga in 1985 was years ahead of the PC, it took more than 5 years for the PC to catch up with the hardware and 10 years to catch up with the OS. Yet the PC still won, as it did against every other platform. The PC has been able to do this because of a huge software base and it's ability to steal the competitors clothes, low prices and high performance were not a factor until much later. If you read the description of the Amiga I gave again you'll find it also describes a modern PC. The Amiga may have introduced specialised chips for graphics acceleration and multitasking to the desktop world but now all computers have them.
In the case of the Amiga it was not the hardware or the price which beat it. It was the vast MSDOS software base which prevented it getting into the business market, Commodore's ability to shoot themselves in the foot finished finished them off. NeXT came along next with even better hardware and an even better Unix based OS but they couldn't dent the PC either. It was next to be dispatched and again the PC later caught up and stole all it's best features, it took 13 years to bring memory protection to the consumer level PC.
The PC can and does take on the best features of competitors, history has shown that even if this takes a very long time the PC still ultimately wins. Could the PC not just steal the Cell's unique attributes and cast it aside also?"
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Heh. I would have thought if the people in the Amiga community had learnt anything, it's not to listen to new product announcements.
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Personally, I would like to see a microprocessor that ran cool enough not to need a cooling fan at all - or liquid nitrogen - even if I did have to give up a few clock cycles. Properly optimized operating system code would more than make up for a little loss in speed for many purposes. Even with three cooling fans my P3 still overheats sometimes and I run it at it's rated speed.
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@bjjones37:
In what way does it overheat? The P3 cpu is not a very hot running cpu so if it is the cpu that overheats, something must be very wrong - like for example bad thermal transfer between the heatsink and cpu or something similar. In that case remove the old thermal paste and reapply new.
/Patrik
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patrik wrote:
@bjjones37:
In what way does it overheat? The P3 cpu is not a very hot running cpu so if it is the cpu that overheats, something must be very wrong - like for example bad thermal transfer between the heatsink and cpu or something similar. In that case remove the old thermal paste and reapply new.
/Patrik
It used some kind of thermal tape that melted when it ran to bond the two together. Is this inferior to thermal paste? Should I scrape it off and replace it?
That aside, I still would rather have processors run cooler even at the sacrifice of some speed. I have heard that Motorola processors usually run cooler that Intel processors at comparable performance (not necessarily clock speed). Is this true?
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bjjones37 wrote:
It used some kind of thermal tape that melted when it ran to bond the two together. Is this inferior to thermal paste? Should I scrape it off and replace it?
That aside, I still would rather have processors run cooler even at the sacrifice of some speed. I have heard that Motorola processors usually run cooler that Intel processors at comparable performance (not necessarily clock speed). Is this true?
Yes, that would be a good idea. However, the only x86 based solution that comes close to what you desire is the VIA Eden, plus they come in miniITX, just a thought.
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adz wrote:
Yes, that would be a good idea. However, the only x86 based solution that comes close to what you desire is the VIA Eden, plus they come in miniITX, just a thought.
Hey that VIA Eden chip does look great! If it has full MS software compatibility, that might just be my next computer. My P3-1GHz runs everything I have at a decent speed and that chip might even have better performance with it's SSE support.
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Hum,
AMD has full MS software compatibility as well, i thought...
(As well as coppermine... ;) , compatible with your mobo)
Best used with artic thermal paste....(apply not too thick , less than a mm)
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bjjones37 wrote:
adz wrote:
Yes, that would be a good idea. However, the only x86 based solution that comes close to what you desire is the VIA Eden, plus they come in miniITX, just a thought.
Hey that VIA Eden chip does look great! If it has full MS software compatibility, that might just be my next computer. My P3-1GHz runs everything I have at a decent speed and that chip might even have better performance with it's SSE support.
Bear in mind that my 2Ghz Athlon64 3200+ runs at 26 degrees C... that a damn slight cooler than any 68k I've enver seen.
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blobrana wrote:
Hum,
AMD has full MS software compatibility as well, i thought...
(As well as coppermine... ;) , compatible with your mobo)
Best used with artic thermal paste....(apply not too thick , less than a mm)
What looked so good about the VIA Eden chip was that it ran so cool. It claims to not even need a cooling fan. I believe that the AMD processors, while high performance, run just as hot as the Intel chips.
It gets really hot in Texas. I remember hearing about the heat wave they had in France a couple of years ago and how thousands (IIRC) actually died. We have that kind of weather in Texas every year and I did not even have AC when I was a kid. I keep the AC at 81 degrees during the summer but sometimes my computer room heats up to 90 or so just because of the computer (or two) being on. I have had to resort to leaving the side panel off of the case to cut down on the everheating. It does help, and of course it is a lot better now during the winter.
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bloodline wrote:
bjjones37 wrote:
adz wrote:
Yes, that would be a good idea. However, the only x86 based solution that comes close to what you desire is the VIA Eden, plus they come in miniITX, just a thought.
Hey that VIA Eden chip does look great! If it has full MS software compatibility, that might just be my next computer. My P3-1GHz runs everything I have at a decent speed and that chip might even have better performance with it's SSE support.
Bear in mind that my 2Ghz Athlon64 3200+ runs at 26 degrees C... that a damn slight cooler than any 68k I've enver seen.
And how about without active cooling?
My 68040 + heatsink (unfanned) under 100% load never gets above 35C, and that is supposedly the hottest of the 680x0 series.
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bloodline wrote:
bjjones37 wrote:
adz wrote:
Yes, that would be a good idea. However, the only x86 based solution that comes close to what you desire is the VIA Eden, plus they come in miniITX, just a thought.
Hey that VIA Eden chip does look great! If it has full MS software compatibility, that might just be my next computer. My P3-1GHz runs everything I have at a decent speed and that chip might even have better performance with it's SSE support.
Bear in mind that my 2Ghz Athlon64 3200+ runs at 26 degrees C... that a damn slight cooler than any 68k I've enver seen.
Is that without a cooling fan?
Neither my ST nor my Amiga seem to get all that hot, but then we are talking MHz, not GHz.
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@bjjones37:
Yeah, thermal paste is better, although your solution should work. When having problems with thermal transfer, it is quite common that some solid and large enough object has come between causing bad contact, like solid dirt etc. Cleaning it away and using a thin layer of thermal paste as blobrana says would be a good idea. When removing the old melting solution, try not to not scratch the surfaces as that will reduce their thermal transfer ability. Peeling away the most of it with your fingers and then cleaning away the rest with alcohol should keep the surfaces intact.
Other than that - is your cpu heatsink of adequate size, are the case fans directed appropriate? For example, the psu fan and fans at the back of the computer should be blowing air out of the case while fans at the front should be sucking air into the case. Also are there enough air-intake holes of enough size so the fans actually are able to draw any air through the case? You should also check the cable routing so no cables are covering for example the fan on the cpu heatsink.
May I ask what temperature you have in the computer room and what the cpu and case temperature of your computer is?
/Patrik
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patrik wrote:
@bjjones37:
May I ask what temperature you have in the computer room and what the cpu and case temperature of your computer is?
/Patrik
I will have to check on that when I get home. I have a temp monitor that pops up to let me know when I overheat so I do not always look at the actual temperature. Funny thing is that sometimes it just spikes. Even when it is 65 degrees in the room - but that is rare. As I said earlier, during the summer it can get up to 90 in my computer room just because the computers are on when it is about 81 in the rest of the house.
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@bjjones37
Don't use degrees Farenheit man, its just too... wrong :-D
Embrace degrees Celcius (or better yet Kelvin) and never know fear again :lol:
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If the Cell is placed into desktop computers it may be another victim of the PC.
Note that Cell is highly optimized only for certain tasks, and will be made in a single speed. It will not evolve as quickly as anything in the PC industry.
People made a huge deal out of the Sony Tool (PS2-based workstation). It was news for about 6 months when the technology was overtaken by just about everything else. The PS2 is a highly integrated machine. It does its job well, but is not terribly adaptable, unless you just parallel-link a ton of them, and that's not financially sound.
Note that flexability and the ability to choose many different components is what made the PC such an important machine. People prefer commodity over raw performance.
The PC has been able to do this because of a huge software base and it's ability to steal the competitors clothes.
And yet, people still think closed architecture, dependency on a single hardware platform, vertical monopolization, and mandatory bundled hardware is going to save the Amiga. For all the flak Microsoft took years ago for their built-in web browser, fanatical Amigans are still proud of their "mandatory hardware attached."
Hey, it works for Apple, right?
Microsoft got rich becuase they practically gave MS-DOS to IBM for free, with the condition that they could sell their OS to competitors. Soon, IBM was irrelevant, clones took over, the PC went "open", and MS controlled the entire desktop industry.
Moral, anyone?
Bear in mind that my 2Ghz Athlon64 3200+ runs at 26 degrees C... that a damn slight cooler than any 68k I've enver seen.
People who continuously bash x86 architecture always use Prescott P4's as their example. I doubt anyone in Amiga-land really knows how good the new Athlons are getting.
My next machine will be AMD. Hands down.
My 68040 + heatsink (unfanned) under 100% load never gets above 35C, and that is supposedly the hottest of the 680x0 series.
Many 486's didn't need heatsinks at all. That was just the way things were done back then, before computers went mainstream all this Pentium marketting nonsense started happening.
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@Waccon
I added the heatsink myself, thinking it would be needed. Frankly it isn't.
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Waccoon wrote:
I doubt anyone in Amiga-land really knows how good the new Athlons are getting.
My next machine will be AMD. Hands down.
I live in Amigaland, have two of them, and I have two AMD Athlon 64 processors.. In fact I am writing this to you on the prerelease of Windows XP Professional x64 edition.. I even have the 64-bit release candidate of Java installed.. To know how fast this really is you have to experience it..
I look forward to the day when I can boot AROS on Nitro, my tower AMD64 machine with full networking.. That will just totally kick a$$ and honestly, I'd drag race an AmigaOne any day with it.. I don't see moving to PowerPC hardware an effective solution for most people here in the USA.. The E.U. might be another story.. I am just glad soon I will have an Amiga style OS for it. I wish it could be the real thing, but with all the development happening with AROS I am not really worried about it...
-Don
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If you're looking at a new PC and specifically I will warn you, that even the fastest VIA Nemiah (or however they're spelled - basically their top end chips) are only comparable with Pentium 2's in general usage.
Honestly you'd be fine with an Athlon XP with a decent cooler on it (IE, not the stock one). I had one with a water cooler and even on the hottest of days the thing at full tilt never rose above 40C, even overclocked as much as it was (1.6Ghz stock up to 2.0Ghz).
At stock rates, with a reasonable qualty heatsink fan combo you should be expecting operating temps between 35C and 45C idle and at full tilt running at about 55C. They are superb chips, if you want to get clever, look for Athlon XP mobility chips, they run cooler and draw much less juice without effecting their performance. They are also Socket A chips.
Now, if you think that the P4 is too hot to handle, perhaps you should consider the Pentium M series CPU's, at 1.6Ghz they will laugh at anything a 2.8Ghz P4 can do, and do it using far less gogo juice (and thus run cooler) into the bargain. They're not as cheep as AthlonXP's or Mobility XP's, but they are solid performers that you should consider. I believe Asus make boards for Pentium M in a microATX form factor as well.
I could assemble a kit list for you if you wish.
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Honestly you'd be fine with an Athlon XP with a decent cooler on it (IE, not the stock one). I had one with a water cooler and even on the hottest of days the thing at full tilt never rose above 40C, even overclocked as much as it was (1.6Ghz stock up to 2.0Ghz).
My Athlon64 runs at 26 Degrees (over clocked!) with the stock cooler, the one that came with the "Processor in a box".
I think the best thing about the Athlon64 is not it's 64bit ness but it's integrated dual channel memory controler... the performance boost that they alone give is phenominal!
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The readings I gave were from mbm5, I honestly can't see an Athlon64 running that cool, not with the stock cooler, especially given the Abit boards web boards. I don't know, perhaps the newer models do run cooler, but in my experience with AMD64's with the stock cooler, its simply not effective at cooling the thing. No amount of re-adjusting or putting on arctic silver instead of the pink goop thats on the thing as standard drops the temp. I dunno, perhaps I've got a duff one... But I will need a far more effective cooling solution if I want to keep this system beyond next year in a servicable condition.
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No amount of re-adjusting or putting on arctic silver
had a somewhat similar problem but found some causes and cures to my problem
My 2nd PC, a P3@933 was running near 50deg C
1> I tried a higher CFM fan, only 2 or 3 C improvement
2> Then applied artic silver 5, no improvement
3> conducted in-depth google-ing
4> Purchased exact-replacment heatsink
5> Performed a LAPPing operation on it thru 800 grit
and cleaned it with xylene
6> Reread *complete* *proper* Artic-Silver5 instructions from - their website (needs to be near-razor-thin layer)
7> re-installed and now run at 36-37deg C
(maybe refer to alpha-pal or hedgehog heatsink)
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the_leander wrote:
The readings I gave were from mbm5, I honestly can't see an Athlon64 running that cool, not with the stock cooler, especially given the Abit boards web boards. I don't know, perhaps the newer models do run cooler, but in my experience with AMD64's with the stock cooler, its simply not effective at cooling the thing. No amount of re-adjusting or putting on arctic silver instead of the pink goop thats on the thing as standard drops the temp. I dunno, perhaps I've got a duff one... But I will need a far more effective cooling solution if I want to keep this system beyond next year in a servicable condition.
I forgot to say that my Athlon64 is a 90nm SOI one (like all new Athlon64's), which run much cooler (and over clook much better) than the old 130nm chips.
The stock fan is really quiet too.
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I intend to get myself a naffing great heatsink like the CoolerMaster Hyper 6 shown here (http://computing.kelkoo.co.uk/ctl/go/shopbotGo?catId=110801&merchantId=3750823&pkey=0&orw=true) Rather then muck around with having to sand the damned thing. Normally I'd avoid Cooler Master like the plague, but this particular cooler seems to be amoung the best available.
All AMD64's are SOI chips, mine is however a 130nm version (as are all socket 754 Athlon64's.)