Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: Louis Dias on January 31, 2005, 09:22:46 PM
-
http://www.gc-linux.org
If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
And only $99, keyboard sold separately:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8164827670&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT
guess who's the current high bidder? :-D
uh Nintendo kicks ass! Nintendo should buy Amiga...
http://www.dsbuzz.com
And if you read http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/gamecube.htm , you will see that a GC is designed like an Amiga. A true gaming machine unlike those PC's (PS2/XBOX) posing as game machines.
-
If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
How have you made that connection?
-
I also would like to know that; but no matter what it is a funny conclusion :-D
Maybe I should start making such conclusions myself...
-
Ookay, enough with the glue sniffing now.
-
oops, I mean here:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-503797.html?legacy=zdnn
to find out how a GC is like an Amiga...
And I'm sure there is a way to overclock it as this article semi-alludes to (or rather, me just reading in to it...)
-
Er....what makes it an Amiga then?
-
bloodline wrote:
If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
How have you made that connection?
it seems only natural and obvious that if you can install one PPC OS, you can install another. The Action Replay is used to do this and loads it from an SD card I think... Think: Amiga OS 4.0 now available on an SD card ready to run!
It's just so natural.
-
It's just so natural.
If by "natural" you mean "possible, yet completely absurd and unlikely to ever be implemented," I'd agree.....
I mean, there are TONS of machines out there that are powerful enough and of a similiar processor family... But the fact remains that KMOS & Hyperion are apparently uninterested in them. AmigaOS 4 is only licensed for AmigaOne and classic PPCs. And he who controls the proprietary boot code and low-level device drivers controls what systems a chunk of code runs on. (At least until some people do a TON of reverse engineering.... [More work than available people would be interested in, most likely])
-
...
Think: Amiga OS 4.0 now available on an SD card ready to run!
hmm somehow the word "think" doesn't fit in there very well I think ;-)
-
maybe imagine is the better word but it would be Hyperion who would do the thinking...
-
lou_dias wrote:
maybe imagine is the better word but it would be Hyperion who would do the thinking...
Or just port AROS... :-)
-
Ilwrath wrote:
It's just so natural.
If by "natural" you mean "possible, yet completely absurd and unlikely to ever be implemented," I'd agree.....
I mean, there are TONS of machines out there that are powerful enough and of a similiar processor family... But the fact remains that KMOS & Hyperion are apparently uninterested in them. AmigaOS 4 is only licensed for AmigaOne and classic PPCs. And he who controls the proprietary boot code and low-level device drivers controls what systems a chunk of code runs on. (At least until some people do a TON of reverse engineering.... [More work than available people would be interested in, most likely])
Why does it sound absurd? You can get a quick, overclockable G3+ PPC computer and excellent 3-d graphics chip and internet access for $99 + a bit more for the Action Replay and Powerboard keyboard and Broadband adapter which I'm the lead bidder ($26) on those 3 items on ebay in the link I posted. There are high-speed serial ports on it, analog controllers, digital-capable output, super fast internal memory. 64 channel Dolby II Surround stereo sound chip. Nintendo now sells a microphone with Mario Party 6 so you could add voice to your chat clients...
Personally it's a steal over the A1 and has an installed base of 18.8 MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEllion users. Since it has support for an ethernet connection (certain Nintendo games support LAN play) running Amiga OS (if it supports net-printers), you could run a network printer for printing. Mouse support could be simulated with the analog stick...
You tell me what a GC couldn't do running OS4 that the A1 can/should/will?
-
oh and the "reverse engineering" seems to be done by the Linux people already...it uses Action Replay to install Linux from a memory card. Yep, Linux on an SD card. OS4 on an SD card... Almost sounds like Amiga Anywhere or whatever the DE is now...
-
No it wouldn't. The GC is a game machine. And, as such will never replace a fully functioning computer. There is a lack of expansion, and the expansions that are available are suitable for games only.
For example, the Ethernet port has a maximum throughput of ~27Mb/s. It can't even run 100Mb/s like a $.99 NIC. There's also the lack of suitable mass storage.
-
>If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
They why'd they tell me it won't happen for an iBook?
-
>You tell me what a GC couldn't do running OS4 that the A1 can/should/will?
It all boils down to the whole "running OS4" bit.
Who's going to pay Amiga or Hyperion or whoever handles such things for the license to port it? Who's going to get the docs from Nintendo so it can be properly supported? (No, I wouldn't ask anyone to reverse-engineer the Linux sources to make AmigaOS drivers for everything in there...) No license, no OS4 for GC. No docs, no drivers, etc...
-
Why does it sound absurd? You can get a quick, overclockable G3+ PPC computer and excellent 3-d graphics chip and internet access for $99 + a bit more for the Action Replay and Powerboard keyboard and Broadband adapter [...] There are high-speed serial ports on it, analog controllers, digital-capable output, super fast internal memory. 64 channel Dolby II Surround stereo sound chip. Nintendo now sells a microphone with Mario Party 6 so you could add voice to your chat clients...
All of which is very specialized and undocumented hardware. Besides, outside of Nintendo's own APIs, the GameCube is FAR from a "quick, overclockable G3+ PPC computer." It's a dog-slow, low-RAM, shared memory architecture, proprietary, undocumented maze of strange components. It plays games well because Nintendo's official toolkits are highly optimized.
It makes a really crappy general use computer, though. Have you even tried running the Linux hack on one? From everything I've heard, it works much worse than Linux on the PS2 does. And that's quite a feat, as Linux on the PS2 is easily manhandled by 5+ year old PCs you can find on the scrapheap.
It's not worth the effort of figuring out, and that's not even taking into account the fact that the end product would very likely be ruled illegal under current US law. (Under the DMCA, releasing a commercial product that loads by bypassing the Nintendo's bootloader protection would be illegal.)
Personally it's a steal over the A1 and has an installed base of 18.8 MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEllion users.
You might as well argue for running AmigaOS 4 on one of these (http://www.extensionmedia.com/powerpc/products/tq_26.shtml). I mean, there's millions of them embedded in things all around you. Oh wait... Actually you'd be BETTER OFF, as at least those are documented... And, while it'd be insane to run AmigaOS 4 on your anti-lock braking system, it probably wouldn't be illegal.
You tell me what a GC couldn't do running OS4 that the A1 can/should/will?
Well, nothing, as all hardware in your world is apparently perfectly documented, understood, and interchangable. :-P
-
I smell bounty!
-
adolescent wrote:
No it wouldn't. The GC is a game machine. And, as such will never replace a fully functioning computer. There is a lack of expansion, and the expansions that are available are suitable for games only.
For example, the Ethernet port has a maximum throughput of ~27Mb/s. It can't even run 100Mb/s like a $.99 NIC. There's also the lack of suitable mass storage.
Well considering the internet is at 10Mb/s and 100 is really for LAN, I'd say they are still ahead of the game, also, where did you get that 27 figure?
As far ask expansion...what would you need? Please specify. With the high speed serial ports, expansions would come if a market developed around the OS port. Look at the GBA player for the gamecube...they also have a rumored N64 player in prototype. there's a mic on the Konga Drums and a mic that plugs into the memory port that comes with Mario Party 6. Dance mats, steering wheels, keyboard, SD memory card storage...If you are talking about more processing power, if you read the article I posted about the Flipper chip, it alludes to software programmable CPU and bus/Flipper chip and I saw an opened Gamecube with the faster 200+MHz Flipper in it on some website. Nintendo never posts their true system's power. I believe it's running at 650MHz and the 203MHz Flipper but early dev kits downgrade it to 485 and 162.5...now we have resident Evil 4 in full force looking better than any other game on the other 2 systems with Zelda yet to come.
-
Is it just me, or are people getting really, really desperate? :-)
Well considering the internet is at 10Mb/s...
Most broadband modems don't come close to even filling the capacity of 10-Base-T Ethernet. The absolute best I've ever seen on a cable modem was about 520 kilobytes per second, and I usually get between 240-300.
Keep in mind that with the lack of true ATA, you'd likely have to do lots of storage access over Ethernet. I can't imagine hacking the GameCube's CD port being all that easy.
-
Ilwrath wrote:
Why does it sound absurd? You can get a quick, overclockable G3+ PPC computer and excellent 3-d graphics chip and internet access for $99 + a bit more for the Action Replay and Powerboard keyboard and Broadband adapter [...] There are high-speed serial ports on it, analog controllers, digital-capable output, super fast internal memory. 64 channel Dolby II Surround stereo sound chip. Nintendo now sells a microphone with Mario Party 6 so you could add voice to your chat clients...
All of which is very specialized and undocumented hardware. Besides, outside of Nintendo's own APIs, the GameCube is FAR from a "quick, overclockable G3+ PPC computer." It's a dog-slow, low-RAM, shared memory architecture, proprietary, undocumented maze of strange components. It plays games well because Nintendo's official toolkits are highly optimized.
It makes a really crappy general use computer, though. Have you even tried running the Linux hack on one? From everything I've heard, it works much worse than Linux on the PS2 does. And that's quite a feat, as Linux on the PS2 is easily manhandled by 5+ year old PCs you can find on the scrapheap.
It's not worth the effort of figuring out, and that's not even taking into account the fact that the end product would very likely be ruled illegal under current US law. (Under the DMCA, releasing a commercial product that loads by bypassing the Nintendo's bootloader protection would be illegal.)
Personally it's a steal over the A1 and has an installed base of 18.8 MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEllion users.
You might as well argue for running AmigaOS 4 on one of these (http://www.extensionmedia.com/powerpc/products/tq_26.shtml). I mean, there's millions of them embedded in things all around you. Oh wait... Actually you'd be BETTER OFF, as at least those are documented... And, while it'd be insane to run AmigaOS 4 on your anti-lock braking system, it probably wouldn't be illegal.
You tell me what a GC couldn't do running OS4 that the A1 can/should/will?
Well, nothing, as all hardware in your world is apparently perfectly documented, understood, and interchangable. :-P
So when you register as a developer for the Nintendo Gamcube and they send you a dev kit, it includes no documentation? Surely you jest. A dev kit gives you libraries to use all the system's capabilities. The GC's graphics uses Open GL...tough to find documentation there. The CPU is an updated G3 with a higher system bus speed and extra SIMD instructions but I'm sure IBM won't tell you anything about it.
Boy, you got to admire Capcom for making a game like Resident Evil 4 with no documentation at all...truly the 8th wonder of the world. (Hello, the Gamecube has been touted as having an excellent API for programmers!)
I thought the Amiga was a game machine that they gave an OS to and added a keyboard and disk drive access to. I thought the Amiga was quick (in it's day) because the graphics chip controlled memory access and memory moves (so does the Flipper in the GameCube, read the ZDnet article I posted please)
Oh and a Gamecube developer's kit is available for CODEWARRIOR to licensed GC developers for $595. But I guess according to some people, at that price, all you are buying is the Nintendo logo.
Also, there is no bypassing the boot loader, you insert the Action Replay CD and it reads code of the memory card special adapter interface.
And you mention dog-slow shared RAM architecture... WTF? You can read, right? Not only does the Flipper have it's own 3MB of internal 20Gb/s bandwidth ram, the GC has 24 Megs of Mosys T-1 which has lower latency that anything else in any gaming platform. It's system bus speed is 162.5Mhz, what's the A1's? What's the XBOX's? And if you read the article it can go to 200+. Also, that extra 16MB bank of 'slow' (SDRAM, which is what the XBOX and A1 use) can be directly accessed by the sound processor independently of the CPU, it's got it's own bus to it. Yes, the GC like the Amiga has 2 buses...who would have thunk it.
If anything the GC is what the Amiga could have been.
Oh and Nintendo's next system - Revolution - is supposed to be backwards compatible with the Gamecube software. It is using the G5 and the latest ATI chipset which incorporates the extra features of the ArtX-developed(before ATI purchased the company) Flipper as stated in the article I posted a link to that you obviously didn't read.
Here's another thing you won't read: http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2002/4559.html and I know you especially won't read the last paragraph.
and another: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1566&p=3 even though this guy says 'XBOX' alot when he should say GameCube. Let me qupte something here:
"The console does feature two serial ports and a high-speed parallel port for these future add-ons, all of which are driven by the Flipper chip which houses the IO controller for these ports. The two serial ports are proprietary designs (not USB like the Xbox) that can transfer at speeds up to 27Mbps. While this means that the Ethernet adapter will be limited to far below 100Mbps, 27Mbps is more than enough considering you won't be copying large files to anything on the Cube. The bandwidth is more than enough for the forthcoming 56K modem.
The high-speed parallel port is also a custom design capable of transferring data at up to 81MB/s (the same speed as the Cube's internal audio DRAM). This would be more than enough for a hard drive."
yes that was 81 MEGA BYTES, not bits, per second. and before you say "it's not standard, it's not USB", USB 1.1 did what - 1.5Mb/s... Anyway, it's all in the Flipper and it IS DOCUMENTED, just ask ATI. Some info is out of date, the Cube now has up 32x memory cards holding 128MB of ram. The ethernet adapter has been release so it's not limited to the 56k adapter.
also check out http://gcemu.dcemu.co.uk/ for a mod chip, 256MB memory card, GC emulation and Revoltuion rumors, Gentoo emulation...etc...
-
Waccoon wrote:
Is it just me, or are people getting really, really desperate? :-)
Well considering the internet is at 10Mb/s...
Most broadband modems don't come close to even filling the capacity of 10-Base-T Ethernet. The absolute best I've ever seen on a cable modem was about 520 kilobytes per second, and I usually get between 240-300.
Keep in mind that with the lack of true ATA, you'd likely have to do lots of storage access over Ethernet. I can't imagine hacking the GameCube's CD port being all that easy.
When I said the internet, I meant the real internet, it's routers and switches across the planet. They run at 10Mb/s. You're actually connection to that is much slower obviously but once a packet hits the internet, that's the speed it travels at. Hence, the Cube's 27Mb/s adapter is more than adequate. But people need something to complain about...I'm not sure but isn't one of the other console's adapter a 10Mb/s adapter?...again, you'll only notice that during LAN play not slower "online" play...
-
And next week I'll be giving a lecture on how to build a BoXer system using only lolypop sticks, sticky backed plastic, and the fluff I found in my belly button this morning.
Face facts, AOS on a gamecube isn't going to happen, the technical challenge alone precludes it, let alone the legal strife anyone without Nintendo's permission would find themselves in.
The hardware although clever is designed for one thing only: Games. Running a full blown OS, even with AOS's legendary scaling would be an uncomfortable experience at best.. Then theres all the extra kit, it isn't just the game cube, is the expansion packs, its the keyboards, adapters and everything else, hell outside of a live CD your chances of actually having a usable OS that lasts more then a few days (because solid state memory cards are sooo reliable) are slim to non, unless you plan to boot off a Nas, by which time you've probably paid for a micro A1 with all the trimmings and then some!
Its a nice idea don't get me wrong, but thats all it will ever be, an idea.
-
lou_dias wrote:
When I said the internet, I meant the real internet, it's routers and switches across the planet. They run at 10Mb/s.
Absolutely wrong. Please check your facts before spouting such non-sense.
Anyway, I wasn't refering to the 27Mb/s as a problem for internet access. I was refering to it as a problem because as of now everything needs to be streamed via BBA. The SD card is only to load a boot file, then a PC server is needed to access the files. You'd know this also if you did any research.
-
iye-yie-yie-yie.... Where to begin... And why to bother?
So when you register as a developer for the Nintendo Gamcube and they send you a dev kit, it includes no documentation? Surely you jest. A dev kit gives you libraries to use all the system's capabilities. The GC's graphics uses Open GL...tough to find documentation there. The CPU is an updated G3 with a higher system bus speed and extra SIMD instructions but I'm sure IBM won't tell you anything about it.
First off, the Nintendo gamecube dev kit costs a fair bit. You don't just register and look in your mailbox in a week. Plus, with that kit, there are restrictions as to WHAT you can develop for that console, and what licensing and distribution terms are. This is the first hurdle. Why would Nintendo want you to be able to run AmigaOS on their console? The chances of getting a legitimate license from them are practically nil. Heck, the chances of just getting ahold of someone who speaks English and will talk with you about licensing at Nintendo are practically nil!
Oh and a Gamecube developer's kit is available for CODEWARRIOR to licensed GC developers for $595. But I guess according to some people, at that price, all you are buying is the Nintendo logo.
Actually, that's just a six month lease of CodeWarrior without any distribution rights.... At least I think that's what this site (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=2174) is talking about.
Boy, you got to admire Capcom for making a game like Resident Evil 4 with no documentation at all...truly the 8th wonder of the world. (Hello, the Gamecube has been touted as having an excellent API for programmers!)
Well, that's all fine and dandy... But if you're going to use the Nintendo's own API, you're going to have to build an abstraction/emulation layer on top of it to provide something for the Amiga OS to latch onto. Basically write a PowerPC reference board emulator. Talk about a performance hit!
If you want to try to hit the hardware yourself (which is what I was assuming you were talking about) well, gee, by definition, that just threw the reknowned Nintendo APIs out the window.
Well, I guess there is a third solution... Totally re-writing AmigaOS to be able to use the Nintendo API directly, but as it's taken so long to get AmigaOS 4 written the first time, I can't see that happening.
And you mention dog-slow shared RAM architecture... WTF? [...] Not only does the Flipper have it's own 3MB of internal 20Gb/s bandwidth ram, the GC has 24 Megs of Mosys T-1 which has lower latency that anything else in any gaming platform. It's system bus speed is 162.5Mhz, what's the A1's?
Uhm... 66 or 100mhz, I think. It's not exactly a rocket, either, but it's a real general purpose bus, not a dedicated chip-to-chip interconnect. There's a fairly large difference here, not that you seem to be caring. But the point I'm trying to make is that you're not going to see anywhere near peak performance here. Like I said before, you have to do one of two things...
1) Throw out the Nintendo API and go at it blind. Surely not very easy or efficient...
2) Build an emulation layer. Figure at least 2-cycles lost to overhead per emulation layer cycle. Even OC'd to 210mhz, you're down to 70mhz in a best-case scenerio. Most likely real numbers would be much worse, yet.
Here's another thing you won't read: http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2002/4559.html and I know you especially won't read the last paragraph.
Here's the last paragraph. What's so special about a proprietary chip and ATi and Nintendo aren't too anxious to share details about?
NINTENDO GAMECUBE features a revolutionary graphics processor, called the 'Flipper' chip, from ATI. The highly integrated processor includes both a 2D and 3D graphics engine, a DSP (digital signal processor) for audio processing, all system I/O (input/output) functions including CPU (central processing unit), system memory, controllers, optical disk, flash card, modem and video interfaces, and an on-chip high bandwidth frame buffer.
GameCube has a really complex chip in it! That's what I've been saying! The thing isn't like something you're going to find in a PC. And for good reason. The thing is dedicated proprietary hardware.
Alright... Here's one for you. When you get your GameCube stuff you ordered, go and install a Gentoo build on it. I'll install a similar revision-level Gentoo on the 5 year old P2-400mhz (i440BX chipset) that I'm currently using as a doorstop. We'll run some of these (http://lbs.sourceforge.net/) and see how well the Nintendo stacks up.
When I said the internet, I meant the real internet, it's routers and switches across the planet. They run at 10Mb/s
Now THAT is the best quote I've heard so far this year. :lol: :rofl: Ya just put Cisco back to the 1970's!
-
What's the XBOX's?
64MB of 6.4GB/s RAM via Dual MCH. Rated ~5 ns.
GPU support memory bandwidth savings tricks such as early Z test, S3TC/5 DXTC texture compression (e.g. 6:1 ratio) methods and compressed Z-buffer.
GPU's vertex shader program resources (as per DX8 specs).
Input registers: 16
Constant registers: 96
Temp registers: 12
Address register(s): 1
Max instruction count: 128
NV2A has two vertex shader units.
-
And if you read the article it can go to 200+. Also, that extra 16MB bank of 'slow' (SDRAM, which is what the XBOX and A1 use) can be directly accessed by the sound processor independently of the CPU, it's got it's own bus to it. Yes, the GC like the Amiga has 2 buses...who would have thunk it.
Shawn? Shawn! Are you there Shawn?
-
And you mention dog-slow shared RAM architecture... WTF? [...] Not only does the Flipper have it's own 3MB of internal 20Gb/s bandwidth ram, the GC has 24 Megs of Mosys T-1 which has lower latency that anything else in any gaming platform. It's system bus speed is 162.5Mhz, what's the A1's?
Uhm... 66 or 100mhz, I think.
Actually, it's 133 mhz, it's not much lower than the GC one's.
Varthall
-
Ilwrath wrote:
First off, the Nintendo gamecube dev kit costs a fair bit. You don't just register and look in your mailbox in a week. Plus, with that kit, there are restrictions as to WHAT you can develop for that console, and what licensing and distribution terms are. This is the first hurdle. Why would Nintendo want you to be able to run AmigaOS on their console? The chances of getting a legitimate license from them are practically nil. Heck, the chances of just getting ahold of someone who speaks English and will talk with you about licensing at Nintendo are practically nil!
you are kidding right? You don't think an international multi billion dollar company with offices in Seatle doesn't have technichians who speak English? I mean what is all GC software just Japanese imports from Japanese programmers?
As far as getting a license goes, that may be the tough part but it also may not. Only a company like Hyperion who would have to apply for it can tell. Many licenses are based on units actually sold so it initially may be free.
Actually, that's just a six month lease of CodeWarrior without any distribution rights.... At least I think that's what this site (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=2174) is talking about.
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Games/GC/Default.htm
Well, that's all fine and dandy... But if you're going to use the Nintendo's own API, you're going to have to build an abstraction/emulation layer on top of it to provide something for the Amiga OS to latch onto. Basically write a PowerPC reference board emulator. Talk about a performance hit!
If you want to try to hit the hardware yourself (which is what I was assuming you were talking about) well, gee, by definition, that just threw the reknowned Nintendo APIs out the window.
Well, I guess there is a third solution... Totally re-writing AmigaOS to be able to use the Nintendo API directly, but as it's taken so long to get AmigaOS 4 written the first time, I can't see that happening.
Game machines are about hitting the hardware directly for maximum performance. I don't see any reason by the GC API couldn't be used at all and with no performance hit over any other GC piece of software.
Uhm... 66 or 100mhz, I think. It's not exactly a rocket, either, but it's a real general purpose bus, not a dedicated chip-to-chip interconnect. There's a fairly large difference here, not that you seem to be caring. But the point I'm trying to make is that you're not going to see anywhere near peak performance here. Like I said before, you have to do one of two things...
1) Throw out the Nintendo API and go at it blind. Surely not very easy or efficient...
2) Build an emulation layer. Figure at least 2-cycles lost to overhead per emulation layer cycle. Even OC'd to 210mhz, you're down to 70mhz in a best-case scenerio. Most likely real numbers would be much worse, yet.
you are really going out on a limb there...what is being emulated? You have PPC code running on a PPC chip... Que-est que ce le problem? The Flipper is why this system has such tight and fast responsiveness.
Here's the last paragraph. What's so special about a proprietary chip and ATi and Nintendo aren't too anxious to share details about?
NINTENDO GAMECUBE features a revolutionary graphics processor, called the 'Flipper' chip, from ATI. The highly integrated processor includes both a 2D and 3D graphics engine, a DSP (digital signal processor) for audio processing, all system I/O (input/output) functions including CPU (central processing unit), system memory, controllers, optical disk, flash card, modem and video interfaces, and an on-chip high bandwidth frame buffer.
Umm, the Flipper is quite documented by ATI. Infact it's innovations are being incorporated into the next-gen ATI VPU's that's why ATI bought ArtX.
GameCube has a really complex chip in it! That's what I've been saying! The thing isn't like something you're going to find in a PC. And for good reason. The thing is dedicated proprietary hardware.
umm what's proprietary about an IBM G3 750 Gekko and an ATI Flipper? Those are the only 2 chips inside the gamecube and that's why it only costs Nintendo $107 to produce one.
The only thing secretive about the system is Nintendo's published specs on speed of the cpu and Flipper. Nothing else is a mystery. Nintendo first announced that the N64 could do 100,000 polygons per second and it actually can do 150,000. Marketing vs. real info like this is what allows any Nintendo console's software to improve over the course of it's lifespan... I truly believe that the GC is running at 650Mhz with a 216.67 system bus and Flipper. The fact that Nintendo tweaked the specs only 5 months before the console's launch should speak to the fact that it's possibly a software controlled system-speed based on boot code on the game discs or a matter of a couple of resistors on the board...and that the published numbers are more for marketing purpose than actual stats. Now that the system is in it's final year before the new systems, we have graphically superior games like Metroid Prime 2, Resident Evil 4, the next Legend Of Zelda and I'm sure a few more to come.
On the A1, you have a northbridge, a southbridge and then the AGP graphics card... On the Gamecube you have (I'm gonna get classic TV show nogostalic here) "it's Flipper, Flipper - faster than lightning, no one you see is faster than he"!
Alright... Here's one for you. When you get your GameCube stuff you ordered, go and install a Gentoo build on it. I'll install a similar revision-level Gentoo on the 5 year old P2-400mhz (i440BX chipset) that I'm currently using as a doorstop. We'll run some of these (http://lbs.sourceforge.net/) and see how well the Nintendo stacks up.
LOL. I certainly won't be the one that does it because I'm not that techincal with Linux at all. However, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't stand a chance.
When I said the internet, I meant the real internet, it's routers and switches across the planet. They run at 10Mb/s
Now THAT is the best quote I've heard so far this year. :lol: :rofl: Ya just put Cisco back to the 1970's!
[/quote]
The majority of the internet is still 10-based. Get up off the floor and stop laughing.
-
the_leander wrote:
And next week I'll be giving a lecture on how to build a BoXer system using only lolypop sticks, sticky backed plastic, and the fluff I found in my belly button this morning.
Face facts, AOS on a gamecube isn't going to happen, the technical challenge alone precludes it, let alone the legal strife anyone without Nintendo's permission would find themselves in.
The hardware although clever is designed for one thing only: Games. Running a full blown OS, even with AOS's legendary scaling would be an uncomfortable experience at best.. Then theres all the extra kit, it isn't just the game cube, is the expansion packs, its the keyboards, adapters and everything else, hell outside of a live CD your chances of actually having a usable OS that lasts more then a few days (because solid state memory cards are sooo reliable) are slim to non, unless you plan to boot off a Nas, by which time you've probably paid for a micro A1 with all the trimmings and then some!
Its a nice idea don't get me wrong, but thats all it will ever be, an idea.
Yes, that is my point! It's a great idea! Look what Nintendo did with the GBA Player for the GameCube. It has a boot disk that goes instantly to the GBA player via the high speed parralel port. Just picture an SX-1 type addon with a hard drive and with OS 4 booting and some USB ports and maybe a DVDdrive (or buy the Panasonic Q instead of a Gamecube to get a Gamecube that plays DVDs)...and the GBA player is cheaper than an actual GBA...
-
a quote from the Metrowerks site for Codewarrior:
CodeWarrior Benefits
• NINTENDO GAMECUBE OS was built with CodeWarrior tools, so your code will integrate seamlessly, saving valuable development time
• The CodeWarrior C/C++ compiler generates highly-optimized code for Gekko* and intrinsic Gekko paired single vectors.
• The CodeWarrior assembler provides Gekko-specific assembler instructions.
• CodeWarrior Analysis Tools** are available for the NINTENDO GAMECUBE platform, so you can find performance bottlenecks and ensure adequate test suite coverage during the QA process.
• Fast build times provide efficiency during code modification
gee a gamemachine with an OS...who whould have thunk it...and no, there is no ROM inside the gamecube, it all comes from the disc...don't forget - OS != gui, an OS gives you access to hardware...put an Amiga GUI on it and abstaction layer for AHI sound and RTG graphics and boom - Amiga. A harddrive + usb addon through its Parallel port and what do you have?
-
@lou_dias:
If you think it's so damned easy to run an OS on GameCube, do it yourself.
OS4 is nowhere near as modern and portable as Linux.
-
gee a gamemachine with an OS...who whould have thunk it...and no, there is no ROM inside the gamecube, it all comes from the disc...don't forget - OS != gui, an OS gives you access to hardware...put an Amiga GUI on it and abstaction layer for AHI sound and RTG graphics and boom - Amiga.
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
you really should do some reading up on what an OS is.
By your logic I should be able to run KDE on DOS, or at least port it with minimal effort, because all the OS is is an interface to the hardware.
-
lou_dias wrote:
The majority of the internet is still 10-based. Get up off the floor and stop laughing.
No it isn't.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, that is my point! It's a great idea! Look what Nintendo did with the GBA Player for the GameCube. It has a boot disk that goes instantly to the GBA player via the high speed parralel port. Just picture an SX-1 type addon with a hard drive and with OS 4 booting and some USB ports and maybe a DVDdrive (or buy the Panasonic Q instead of a Gamecube to get a Gamecube that plays DVDs)...and the GBA player is cheaper than an actual GBA...
What does that prove?
Ok, so the boot disk enables the audio/video passthrough via the parallel port. There is no emulation or processing going on in the GC besides the video overlays, menus, etc. The GB Player has the complete GBA hardware inside minus the controls, screen, and audio output.
And, the GB Player was originally about the same price as the GBA. I think I paid $89 for mine when it first came out. Of course, since the GC isn't selling, they've cut the price on it and the accessories quite a bit.
But, then again, what does that prove?
-
lou_dias wrote:
you are kidding right? You don't think an international multi billion dollar company with offices in Seatle doesn't have technichians who speak English? I mean what is all GC software just Japanese imports from Japanese programmers?
In Nintendo's case, pretty much. Besides the EA and Midway games, there isn't much that's US made for the GC.
-
Alright. I'm sick of arguing in your theoretical netherland...
You think the GC is hot stuff. I say it's not. Here's my evidence:
According to Nintendo's own pages here (http://www.nintendo.com.au/gamecube/system/index.php) the Nintendo is capable of 1125 MDhrystone 2.1. My P2-400mhz doorstop pulls 841. These are hardly impressive numbers. For comparison, my current desktop (P4HT 3.0ghz) pulls 5133 in single-thread mode (and averages 4200 each in SMP-2 mode, as HyperThread isn't symetrical).
what's proprietary about an IBM G3 750 Gekko and an ATI Flipper? Those are the only 2 chips inside the gamecube and that's why it only costs Nintendo $107 to produce one.
Uhm.... The Flipper and it's interconnect protocol? The very thing you are stating here is why the GameCube makes a horrible general-use computer. The processor isn't thrilling, and the Flipper is an all-in-one unit that only performs well with high optimizations that you aren't likely to find in a general-use OS.
LOL. I certainly won't be the one that does it because I'm not that techincal with Linux at all. However, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't stand a chance.
Ok, so you bought all the stuff to run Linux on a GameCube because you DON'T want to run Linux on it? This makes as much sense as the rest of your arguments. And just saying you're "willing to bet it wouldn't stand a chance" is meaningless words.
Show some real world performance numbers. I did. 1125 theoretical MDhry 2.1 to 841 real-world hardly looks like a blowout, especially when you consider the vast difference between a GameCube and a PowerPC reference board!
I say the GameCube is a cool toy. But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer. I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim. Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.
The majority of the internet is still 10-based. Get up off the floor and stop laughing.
I had, until I read that! :lol: :roflmao: :roflmao:
-
Ilwrath wrote:
I say the GameCube is a cool toy. But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer. I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim. Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.
You don't expect anything more from a Nintendo fanboy do you? Come on, the GC can process an infinate loop in 4 seconds, has the power of 1,000 Cray's, and can play Mario Kart. Of course it can run AOS4. :-)
-
adolescent wrote:
Ilwrath wrote:
I say the GameCube is a cool toy. But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer. I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim. Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.
You don't expect anything more from a Nintendo fanboy do you? Come on, the GC can process an infinate loop in 4 seconds, has the power of 1,000 Cray's, and can play Mario Kart. Of course it can run AOS4. :-)
Now you are getting a bit personal. That is immature considering you know nothing about me. If I do qualify as a Nintendo "fanboy" as you put it, it is because Nintendo has won me over as a high quality and reputable producer of both consoles and very entertaining software. I was not an NES fan in my youth and resented it for displacing the Atari 2600/5200/7800 as king of that generation. I was a Sega Genesis(Masterdrive) fan over the SNES. Yes I did not like Nintendo at all. The N64 was impressive but not enough for me to go and buy one (I liked the Sega Saturn but we know where that went). I have an N64 emulator now on my PC. The Gamecube however has completely won me over as the highest quality system of the big 3...and the company itself has won me over. Looking back, my reasons for resenting the company were childish (I'm in my 30's now) and just plain prejudiced at times. I've grown up. You should too.
Every critisism I've heard about the GC not being a good platform for an OS can also be said of any pre-OS 4 Amiga. In the end, the GC is a tightly intergrated - hence efficient - system extactly like your beloved classic Amigas. Citisize it and you critisize your own past.
Face the facts: the Amiga was a game machine that Commodore decided to give an OS to... Now that I think about it...the Amiga is dead and so is this thread as far as I'm concerned.
I put forward a creative idea and in typical Amiga fanboy fashion, it gets beaten up to death. None of you can agree as to what an Amiga is or what it should be or what cpu it should have or much anything else and that's why you still have nothing but a failed past. Even OS4 and the A1 is an extreme niche market. Exactly how many pre-orders were there? Any product on the Gamecube that appeals to only 1% of it's customers is still 188,000 units in sales. Nintendo is second only to Electronic Arts is producing video games across all markets for the fiscal year ending in March 2004 (according to Game Developer Magazine).
Call me a fanboy or whatever, Nintendo delivers on the goods. It makes promises, it keeps them, it meets deadlines, it makes a quality product. What has Amiga Inc. done? Oh yeah, they gave you $50 T-shirts 3 years later...
If Nintendo bought Amiga, you'd have real games again. You'd have your PPC cpu, you'd have your ATI graphics, your stability. Why should Nintendo be so dedicated to you? Unlike Sony and Microsoft, video game entertainment is their ONLY business. A business designed around pleasing YOU. They only make money by satifying lots of individual users. Not by selling a server OS to a big company, not by selling DVD players and walkmen or TV's.
I realize now that these are foreign concepts to an Amiga user.
Finally,
Why do I care about what performance stats of Linux on a 400Mhz Pentium vs. Linux on a gamecube? This thread, no this website is about Amiga. You all claim to want a PPC Amiga (regarless of the fact that very few of you will actually spend the money on it) and the one you have settled for is still in many ways inferior to a Gamecube. Atleast I'll be able to run my "old" Gamecube software on the G5 powered Nintendo Revolution (or 21, whatever the final name is). I have a clear upgrade path...and actuall products that I will spend money on and be satisfied with.
By the way, I am buying the keyboard and broadband adapter because I want to play Phantasy Star 1 & 2 + and 3 online. And I own Mario Kart, the most fun and addictive kart racing game ever, and it supports LAN play up to 16 players (I play it in split screen with my brother, nephew and niece now). I have a home network already and will probably purchase a second-hand gamecube for $60 maybe another broadband adapter. Since I own a real product, I intend to have fun using it.
Wayne can close this thread as far as I am concerned.
-
Proprietary hardware is WHY the Amiga failed, IMHO. One day I think the people owning the patents and copyrights will get it. Maybe not...
Thanks,
Neofree
-
@lou
Problem is you don't listen. People gave you real facts to why it technically or logisticly wouldn't work. Yet you ignore that and adamantly say it could. Times change, what worked for Amiga 20+ years ago may not work today.
That said, the GC is a good game machine. My GC, bought the first day they came out, as well as my Panasonic Q get moderate useage. I only wish Nintendo hadn't all but discarded their online plans. IMHO, this is one of the reasons Nintendo is #3 in the home console market.
-
Nintendo never had online plans but gave the system the ability to go online to allow 3rd party developers like SEGA and EA, whom at the time had their own online networks, to develop online titles without having to pay Nintendo an extra licensing fee. The fact that SEGA only released PHANTASY STAR 1&2, PHANTASY STAR 1 & 2 PLUS and PHANTASY STAR 3 and none of their ESPN titles is a travesty. The same goes for EA. Remember the big dispute about XBOX Live and EA? Microsoft finally loosened up and did a pass-through to EA's servers. Don't blame Nintendo, they supplied the tools, only SEGA built the bridge but made it a one series highway. Phantasy Star. I don't see why Skies Of Arcadia couldn't like the Dreamcast version...but the Cube's director's cut (S.O.A. Legends) was better anyway...
By the way, it was this Christmas that MS finally took over and put some distance on the #2 spot worldwide. Up til then Nintendo was in #2 except for one brief period despite what Microsoft has led everyone to believe. Right now it's Xbox 19.9 million and GC 18.8. The Xbox had a great Christmas season, I'm sure HALO 2 had something to do with that. Resident Evil 4 and the next Zelda may cause this new and sudden gap to narrow considerably before the next generation appears.
-
lou_dias:
Dude, you sound awfully excited about this idea. Technologically there's no real reason it cannot happen. The problems are documentation and licensing to allow it to happen.
As you seem so determined that Flipper documentation can so easily be had from ATI, and the CPU documentation can so easily be had from IBM, I offer you the challenge to present your business proposal to these and other companies involved (Hyperion and Amiga Inc/KMOS, Nintendo, etc.) and request said documentation. Offer to sign NDAs where necessary. Don't just run in shouting you want AmigaOS on Gamecube, make a respectable proposal to present to these guys, they're businessmen and will want to know about the money they will make from this venture. There may be licensing fees required to make certain things possible that you'll have to pay.
After you've done this and obtained all documentation required, including full CPU instruction set, especially the differences between it and a "standard" PowerPC chip, Flipper's full programming model, and the programming models for all built-in accessories of both CPU and flipper like serial port controllers, CD controller, memory controller, etc. as well as obtaining an AmigaOS HAL and driver development kits, then please come back to us and request programmers serious about doing the work. They'll likely need to legally be considered "employees" of your venture to be covered by your NDA contracts, regardless of if they work for pay or for free.
Please understand that while documentation may exist for certain things, there may also be contractual agreements in place preventing certain such documentation being shared with people not directly involved with the Gamecube. For example, Nintendo may have a contract preventing ATI from releasing documentation for Flipper to you or Hyperion or Amiga Inc. Likewise for the customized PowerPC CPU from IBM. Even if some parties are willing, it only takes one rejection to wreck the whole project. With the Gamecube development kit you've mentioned, game developers do not need to know such intimate details of the chips, so I'd be suprised if they are allowed to see the chip documentation.
That doesn't make a hypothetical AmigaOS porter's life easy though, as you cannot for example make a Picasso96 driver without knowing the chip's programming model. And relying too much on the existing GamecubeOS will give you a result similar to Shapeshifter or Amithlon, where your hypothetical AmigaOS "port" would not be the "OS", it would at best be an "application pretending to be an OS".
Please understand that just because something may be technologically possible doesn't mean it will ever happen. Personally I'd love to see AmigaOS native on an iBook, but there doesn't seem to be an agreeable business in that for those controlling certain licenses required. Gamecube is going to be even less realistic to these businessmen. There's nothing you or I or anybody else here can do to change that.
If you still disagree about this, then again, please write up a business proposal and present it to those you'll need documentation, licenses and development kits from, dance the business politics dance, and prove us nay-sayers wrong. I would not be unhappy to be proven wrong, as if you can do it then there's a better chance of getting what I want done. :)
-
Now you are getting a bit personal. That is immature considering you know nothing about me. If I do qualify as a Nintendo "fanboy" as you put it, it is because Nintendo has won me over as a high quality and reputable producer of both consoles and very entertaining software. I was not an NES fan in my youth and resented it for displacing the Atari 2600/5200/7800 as king of that generation. I was a Sega Genesis(Masterdrive) fan over the SNES. Yes I did not like Nintendo at all. The N64 was impressive but not enough for me to go and buy one (I liked the Sega Saturn but we know where that went). I have an N64 emulator now on my PC. The Gamecube however has completely won me over as the highest quality system of the big 3...and the company itself has won me over. Looking back, my reasons for resenting the company were childish (I'm in my 30's now) and just plain prejudiced at times. I've grown up. You should too.
Being a fan is one thing, but to implement such a plan is a different matter altogether. Be realistic with your expectations.
Every critisism I've heard about the GC not being a good platform for an OS can also be said of any pre-OS 4 Amiga. In the end, the GC is a tightly intergrated - hence efficient - system extactly like your beloved classic Amigas. Citisize it and you critisize your own past.
IF GC documents are so easy to find why there are some difficulties in creating a full Game Cube emulator (1)(2)?
Notes;
1. Dolwin 0.10, Open source; bugs heaven. Runs only a few demos.
2. Dolphin, Close source; able run a *very few* commercial games with tons of bugs.
3. Ninphin, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
4. WhineCube, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
If you know more about GC please contribute to
http://dolwin.emulation64.com/
Dolwin uses documentation from http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/yagcd.html
Dolwin’s status indicates the incomplete nature of publicly available GC documentation.
Open source group has access to SoftPear/PearPC’s own efforts (includes system programmers who can write JIT-CPU emulator).
If Nintendo bought Amiga, you'd have real games again. You'd have your PPC cpu, you'd have your ATI graphics, your stability.
What kind of PowerPC "G3" are we talking about?
ArtX stuff is not quite related to ATI's Radeon.
-
Hammer wrote:
IF GC documents are so easy to find why there are some difficulties in creating a full Game Cube emulator (1)(2)?
Notes;
1. Dolwin 0.10, Open source; bugs heaven. Runs only a few demos.
2. Dolphin, Close source; able run a *very few* commercial games with tons of bugs.
3. Ninphin, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
4. WhineCube, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
If you know more about GC please contribute to
http://dolwin.emulation64.com/
Dolwin uses documentation from http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/yagcd.html
Dolwin’s status indicates the incomplete nature of publicly available GC documentation.
Open source group has access to SoftPear/PearPC’s own efforts.
Who is talking about emulating a GC? And obviously somebody found something out something to be able to run some commercial games. In the end, if you want to know how to program a GC you need to become a licensed developer and get the kit. Isn't that just a bit obvious? Why am I being asked how to program the Flipper and to show proof? Only one party can port OS4 to the GC and that's Hyperion, not me. And to do that, they need a license...imagine that.
What kind of PowerPC "G3" are we talking about?
ArtX stuff is not quite related to ATI's Radeon.
It's a well known fact that the GC uses the G3 750 series 'Gekko'. Also, who said Flipper is related to Radeon? I said ATI is incoporating Flipper technology into FUTURE Radeons but even this statement is from 2001 so we already may have a Radeon with incorporated Flipper features (primarily large high bandwidth on-die texture cache).
OS 4 is already a PPC OS. All that would need reprogramming is the hardware abstraction layer. Hyperion wasted alot of time having to write BIOS code and drivers for the A1's southbridge, northbridge and various potential sound, video and lan cards. The Flipper handles all that and memory management too. No need to implement a work around for the Via bug...so many delays. The Nintendo dev kit would have supplied the low level stuff. Eyetech could have designed a SX-1-like addon like the GBA player that gives you 2 ide ports, usb and what ever else you might want (possibly some traditional ram to use as virtual memory) instead of a full-blown much revised and delayed and now outdated motherboard.
Anyway, this discussion needs to end. It's all only what could have been, not what will be.
-
According to Nintendo's own pages here the Nintendo is capable of 1125 MDhrystone 2.1. My P2-400mhz doorstop pulls 841. These are hardly impressive numbers. For comparison, my current desktop (P4HT 3.0ghz) pulls 5133 in single-thread mode (and averages 4200 each in SMP-2 mode, as HyperThread isn't symetrical).
Just to add...
Athlon 64 3400+ (ASUS K8N-E Deluxe, 1GB PC3200, X64, gcc3.4 -O6 -m64) scored ~7840M Dhrystone 2.
Xeon EM64T (3600Mhz, HP xw8200, FC-2, -O6 -m64) ~7173M Dhrystone 2.
X-BOX PIII-Kitbash @733Mhz scored ~1507.9M.
-
Who is talking about emulating a GC? And obviously somebody found something out something to be able to run some commercial games
Very few and buggy.
In the end, if you want to know how to program a GC you need to become a licensed developer and get the kit.
Do they give you the documentation to "hit the metal"?
Programming via APIs pretty much shields the programmer from the underlaying hardware (abstruction).
You are just proposing some sort of AmigaDE style player i.e. middleware ecosystem player(minus the vCPU abstractions). AROS-Linux hosted edition could work...
It's a well known fact that the GC uses the G3 750 series 'Gekko'
Is the 750FX *100 percent* compatible with 750GX?
(hints: look in AW.net OS4 issues)
PS; PPC32 is not an analogue to IA-32 when it comes to freezing the ISA standard.
OS 4 is already a PPC OS.
Being PPC OS doesn't guarantee straight compatibility; refer to PowerPC e500 core vs 750xx.
-
@ billt
Hi Bill.
I understand the business end of it. As the developer of the ATI drivers for OS4, you obviously stand to benefit from the OS in it's current design...if it sells well.
What I did is put an idea out there. A feasible one if you ask me since the hardware actually exists and is in the hands of 18.8 million people. It is up to Hyperion and maybe even you to ge a license and really see what can be done and if it's worth doing.
You mention that Amithlon (and others) is an application pretending to be an OS. What is DOPUS? Isn't that an application pretending to be an OS? What is an OS? It should be just an API that is one or two levels higher than the actual hardware. Isn't a GUI an application? Kickstart is the OS and Workbench is the GUI/Application. One application can launch other applications, there's no sin in that. The real OS is just a set of tools, the gui application is what is actually used. Bootable CDROM systems like the CD32 (and all other cd/dvd game consoles) for-go the gui application and use native OS calls programmatically (rather than through a gui that waits for you to launch an app) to run the game (application).
In the end it's the application that counts. The actual hardware not mattering is what a common gui and common reference set of OS-calls that a hardware abstraction layer is used for. So I ask you, if a HAL was written that supplied the established Amiga OS 4 API for the Gamecube, could the Gamecube not launch Amiga OS compliant applications that also run on an A1? Wouldn't just being able to run IBrowse(bundled with the GC version) on the GC be a selling point? Actually being able to surf the web is something none of the consoles currently do. Save your logon information to a memory card and take the OS disc and memory card (now up to 128mb) to a friend's house and you could check your email there too after kicking his ass at Soul Caliber II.
-
What is DOPUS?
Glorified file manager.
Isn't a GUI an application?
For AOS's case; it's the "Intuition".
Workbench
Yet another file manager.
-
Also, who said Flipper is related to Radeon? I said ATI is incoporating Flipper technology into FUTURE Radeons but even this statement is from 2001 so we already may have a Radeon with incorporated Flipper features (primarily large high bandwidth on-die texture cache).
So did NVIDIA i.e. its call "Turbo Cache" e.g. Geforce 6200. ATI's version is called "Hyper Memory" e.g. Radeon X300. It doesn't mean they are both the same in terms of ISA.
The issue is with Flipper's programming modelling (if any).
-
@lou_dias
Theoretical vs Theoretical
Refer to
http://www.nintendo.com.au/gamecube/system/index.php
10.5 GFLOPS.
http://nvidia.com/page/console.html
80 GLOPS from NV2A
In terms being a calculator; NVIDIA’s NV2A kills the whole Nintendo Game Cube. GC can’t match a massively parallelled SIMD GPU.
-
lou dias: Wayne can close this thread as far as I am concerned.
I second that.
-
lou_dias wrote:
The majority of the internet is still 10-based. Get up off the floor and stop laughing.
Where the fuсk did you get that completely stupid absurd idea from?
When you say 10 based do you mean 10 GIGABIT?
Thats more like it UUnet's backbone across the UK is 1.5 Gigabit. The switching is done at 10 Gigabit in most places now, up from the 1 Gigabit it used to. I know people that work at ISP's I assume you merely know people that work as IT coordinators for a primary school or something. :laughing:
-
@lou_dias
>As the developer of the ATI drivers for OS4, you obviously
>stand to benefit from the OS in it's current design...
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I stand to "benefit" to a SMALL extent from sales including the Radeon driver I'm involved with, yes, but I don't see what the OS's current design has to do with that. I also do not expect to see returns that will completely pay for the hardware I've personally purchased for this venture, there's a good bit of charity in there from a lot of people that merely wanted something enough to pay so much for it, like I've paid so much so that I can have better than a Voodoo3 card in my own Amiga. Not everyone is in the charity business though, and real companies like ATI will need convinced that they will show some profit from the venture before they'll allow me or you to grant our own money on something not profitable to ourselves.
Also realize that anyone can write graphics drivers for OS4 in its current design. You could even get documentation from ATI or reverse-engineer the Linux driver code if you like and directly compete with our Radeon driver if you like. Nothing exists that makes our driver "exclusive" or anything...
>What I did is put an idea out there. A feasible one if you
>ask me since the hardware actually exists and is in the hands
>of 18.8 million people. It is up to Hyperion and maybe even
>you to ge a license and really see what can be done and if
>it's worth doing.
The number of people owning the hardware isn't what's important, the number of people that would buy AmigaOS for Gamecube is important. You've used web browsing as one example for using AmigaOS on Gamecube. How many Gamecube owners want that capability, and of those how many are willing to pay for it?
>So I ask you, if a HAL was written that supplied the
>established Amiga OS 4 API for the Gamecube, could the
>Gamecube not launch Amiga OS compliant applications that
>also run on an A1?
That's what a HAL does, it fits between the specific hardware and the defined common API the apps use, yes. The problem is, who will make this HAL for Gamecube? Apparently no one in this forum is doing it. No one is going to do it because you want it to be done. You have to convince enough people that they will get something out of it in return, including Nintendo, KMOS, Hyperion, and perhaps ATI and IBM though I think any Gecko or Flipper documentation would more likely be requested from Nintendo than them, simply as the chips are customized to Nintendo's specifications, they probably hold the rights to it.
Who all do you need licenses from to allow you to make this HAL?
How much do they cost?
How much do the development kits cost?
How much will you have to pay the programmers to do it?
Is the Gamecube dev kit adequate for porting AmigaOS? (It may not be, if you believe it is be prepared to explain why in great detail...)
If not, what additional information is required? (Gecko/Flipper programming models/register descriptions, etc.?)
Who do you get that from? (Does Gecko/Flipper documentation come from ATI/IBM or from Nintendo? My guess is Nintendo.)
>Wouldn't just being able to run IBrowse(bundled with the GC
>version) on the GC be a selling point?
A selling point from who's perspective? The Gamecube users won't want to pay for such an outdated browser, it can't even do hotmail these days, ebay is awkward, etc. with it. That's not the web browsing experience Gamecube users want. Tha's not the browsing experience *I* want, so I mostly use Firefox on my PC instead these days. You'll need Java, Shockwave, Flash, Mpeg, Quicktime, Real, and Windows Media playback capability for these users to be willing to pay for it, as if any site they like doesn't work, they ain't gonna buy your AmigaOS/IBrowse kit for the Gamecube... Besides, they'll have to buy extra hardware such as the kayboard, mouse, and perhaps the Action Replay or whatever cartridge you mentioned, and perhaps a hard drive kit in addition to the software package. Are enough Gamecube owners willing to go to THAT expense to browse the web or do other things you have in mind on their Gamecube, or are they more likely to just walk over to their PC for such things instead of buying all the Gamecube stuff?
From Nintendo's perspective, how will it grow their revenues? Do they hand out dev kits to just anyone able to pay for the fee for it? Or might they be somewhat selective about who they think can make a viable business able to pay any recurring costs, licenses per copy sold, or whatever else they might require?
From ATI's or IBM's perspective, Is this even their stuff to worry about, or are they simply a component supplier selling chips partially designed by Nintendo to Nintendo?
From KMOS's/Hyperion's perspective, how and how much money can they actually make from this in the really real world? Do you have a way to accaptably appease their concerns about piracy or other problems as seen by them?
> It is up to Hyperion and maybe even you to ge a license
> and really see what can be done and if it's worth doing.
Dude, how did this become MY responsibility to make your idea come true? Don't work that way... You need to get the licenses together yourself, including the AmigaOS license. If you think this is a truely viable business model, write up a respectable proposal and present it to the proper people, who include managment at KMOS, Hyperion, Nintendo, and perhaps ATI and IBM though I'm not as certain about those two. Arguing with users in this forum is the wrong place, the wrong presentation method, and us readers/users are the wrong people to convince. If you want your idea to go anywhere, it will be YOUR responsibility to develop the business around it. The other companies will of course be part of such a business if you can do it, but it's not their responsibility to develop YOUR business plan and execute it for you.
I'd like a few things to happen as well, but no one else is doing them. It's no one else's responsibility to do so. If I want them to happen, it's MY responsibility to make it possible, same as your responsibility for your idea here. You may be right about real potential in your idea, but get out of this forum and present it properly to the proper people, and make it so. You've seen that no one in this forum is going to do it for you, so it's back on your shoulders where it never even moved from... If it's not worth it to you who wants it done to go out and do this, then why should businessmen who need convincing do it for you? Besides, it's your idea, you should be involved in its implementation if one is ever made.
-
Hammer wrote:
@lou_dias
Theoretical vs Theoretical
Refer to
http://www.nintendo.com.au/gamecube/system/index.php
10.5 GFLOPS.
http://nvidia.com/page/console.html
80 GLOPS from NV2A
In terms being a calculator; NVIDIA’s NV2A kills the whole Nintendo Game Cube. GC can’t match a massively parallelled SIMD GPU.
Somehow I don't think the XBOX is the Cray supercomputer that this page you linked makes it seem to be. Also the 10.5 Gflops you quoted is:
Floating-point Arithmetic Capability 10.5 GFLOPS (Peak) for the GC's processor not GPU. What's the the Celeron in the XBox's FPU Arithmetic Capability? Let's compare apples to apples here.
Finally, I don't care if the XBOX is more powerful than a gamecube. I just said we could have a cheap PPC Amiga using a gamecube. The Xbox is neither PPC nor as inexpensive. However, it seems all next generation systems are going to be using PPC (or Power) technology...and Nintendo has just confirmed that their next system is going to be backwards compatible with the GC's software.
http://cube.ign.com/articles/595/595089p1.html
-
Hammer wrote:
Do they give you the documentation to "hit the metal"?
Programming via APIs pretty much shields the programmer from the underlaying hardware (abstruction).
Isn't "hitting the metal" what API's do? Why would you want re-invent the wheel. "Hitting the metal" is what made A500 games incompatible with later Amiga machines. Why go back down that road? Besides, that's what will allow 'Revolution' to be backwards compatible with the GC. Even the dev-environment has been promised to be 'familiar'. Please go to the link I posted in the previous message for the Iwata Keynote Transcript.
Also, the GC has no BIOS. So that is one less layer of R&D that is needed. Everything is in the Dev kit and loaded from the game disc. The GC's drive has a really low average seek time and that's why alot of software loads quickly on the system versus the others. When loading alot of smaller files, the GC will outperform a PS2 or XBOX in loading times.
-
You're STILL going on about this thread?
The Xbox is neither PPC nor as inexpensive.
But, it does have something that benefits most personal computers: a hard drive. Try adding storage to a Gamecube and you'll likely have to put in some more money. Given the volume of interest, your "less expensive" machine will climb to the cost of an XBox very quickly.
What's the the Celeron in the XBox's FPU Arithmetic Capability? Let's compare apples to apples here.
CPUs and GPUs can both calculate float math, so comparing numbers about GFLOP performance can get sticky.
The speed vs accuracy ratio is quite different between CPUs and GPUs. I believe Radeon-class GPUs are limited to 24-bit floats. It's easy to get lots of GFLOPS when you cut back on accuracy.
Isn't "hitting the metal" what API's do?
No, that's what drivers do. APIs are totally different. An API can talk to specific parts of a driver to get better performance, but the driver still does all the hard work and a true API does not offer direct hardware access. Drivers run in kernel mode, while most APIs run in user mode. There are good reasons for that.
Also, the GC has no BIOS. So that is one less layer of R&D that is needed. Everything is in the Dev kit and loaded from the game disc.
So, what tells the hardware how to use the drive so it can load firmware off the drive? You can hard-wire a BIOS into the hardware instead of putting it on a seperate ROM, but that just makes things a hell of a lot more difficult for your "cheap Amiga" project.
The GC's drive has a really low average seek time and that's why alot of software loads quickly on the system versus the others
What really affects speed is the quality of the filesystem, which minimizes the number of seeks in the first place. Consoles load data quickly because there is no fragmentation on the discs, except for things like streaming audio for background music. Games with long load times are the ones with very poorly organized discs.
Hard drives have much lower seek times. So do memory cards. Your idea of a cheap Amiga is to save yourself $50 and retard performance by a huge magnitude?
The Amiga may have a lot in common with game consoles, but it is certainly not a set-top box.
-
Waccoon wrote:
You're STILL going on about this thread?
It's my thread, I can go on about it if I want. The fact that Revolution is backwards compatible, will include a hard drive and will have a familiar API makes the issue current and revelant. Any work that could have been started on this in the past could carry right over into a Revolution developer's license.
The Xbox is neither PPC nor as inexpensive.
But, it does have something that benefits most personal computers: a hard drive. Try adding storage to a Gamecube and you'll likely have to put in some more money. Given the volume of interest, your "less expensive" machine will climb to the cost of an XBox very quickly.
Xbox talk is quite off-topic not only for this site but for this thread The XBOX is a PC in game machine's clothing, nothing more...except the XBOX2 which is going to be PPC and ATI like the GC and Revolution are...
What's the the Celeron in the XBox's FPU Arithmetic Capability? Let's compare apples to apples here.
CPUs and GPUs can both calculate float math, so comparing numbers about GFLOP performance can get sticky.
The speed vs accuracy ratio is quite different between CPUs and GPUs. I believe Radeon-class GPUs are limited to 24-bit floats. It's easy to get lots of GFLOPS when you cut back on accuracy.
again compare apples to apples, now you are mentioning a GPU that isn't in the Gamecube. You quoted a floating point performance value of the G3 in the GC and compared it to a value in the XBOX's GPU. Not a very valid or fair comparison. Give me the XBOX's Celeron's Gflop measure or give me nothing.
Isn't "hitting the metal" what API's do?
No, that's what drivers do. APIs are totally different. An API can talk to specific parts of a driver to get better performance, but the driver still does all the hard work and a true API does not offer direct hardware access. Drivers run in kernel mode, while most APIs run in user mode. There are good reasons for that.
Also, the GC has no BIOS. So that is one less layer of R&D that is needed. Everything is in the Dev kit and loaded from the game disc.
So, what tells the hardware how to use the drive so it can load firmware off the drive? You can hard-wire a BIOS into the hardware instead of putting it on a seperate ROM, but that just makes things a hell of a lot more difficult for your "cheap Amiga" project.
For game machines, the developer kit includes drivers and an API that get loaded in with the final game disc, it always hits the metal. That's why game machine are so efficient at playing games...shocker!
The miniscule BIOS in the GC just says "Load from disc"... That's where a disc like ACTION REPLAY comes in and offers you a boot screen. Or using the PSO update trick to load code over the LAN. Or you have a licensed and fully developed "Amiga" product boot up directly from power up. Either way, there are ports on the GC that would allow a true developer to make a hard-drive add-on. Also, the Action Replay provides a special memory card adapter that Nintendo was originally going to release that allows you to plug in SD memory cards into it. So let's see, you can load software into the GC via LAN, SD card or disk. And you can plug a keyboard into it (Powerboard 5000). Or you can get the Sony PS2 controller/standard ps2 keyboard adapter for it and use a standard ps2 keyboard that you already own. The machine is a hacker's dream...unfortunately I am not a teenager with endless time on my hands. Again, I'm just exploring the idea and getting hit on the head for it.
The GC's drive has a really low average seek time and that's why alot of software loads quickly on the system versus the others
What really affects speed is the quality of the filesystem, which minimizes the number of seeks in the first place. Consoles load data quickly because there is no fragmentation on the discs, except for things like streaming audio for background music. Games with long load times are the ones with very poorly organized discs.
Hard drives have much lower seek times. So do memory cards. Your idea of a cheap Amiga is to save yourself $50 and retard performance by a huge magnitude?
I don't see any GC title having poor boot time. Also, I just explained how the GC can read SD memory cards so not performance hit there. Performance measures are usually about running programs already in memory. For that the GC has faster memory then the A1 is getting despite the fact that the CPU is slower. Either way it still adds up to an existing hardware platform that meets the topic of being a platform for a PPC Amiga. I'm just showing how people on this board can get what they have been asking for at a lower cost. As far as getting more performance...a real and licensed piece of software made to run on the GC could run much faster on Revolution...which Iwata in his GDC keynote address has stated "will be backwards compatible with Gamecube software."...as well as have a hard drive and built-in WI-FI...and familar development evironment...so any R&D done for the GC could carry over to Revolution.
The Amiga may have a lot in common with game consoles, but it is certainly not a set-top box.
That's arguable...not only has every Amiga been designed like a game machine, Commodore and every would-be owner since then had always tried to license the technology for set-top boxes of one form or another. Like I said, every reason why the GC can't be an Amiga platform is a knock on Amiga's roots. I guess people want a single-bus system that offers the same inefficiencies of the WINTEL platform they are deathly trying to avoid.
Remember, it's the Gamecube's "custom chips" that makes it more efficient. Does that sound familiar? Again, the Revolution is getting a customized G5(or newer tech) called "Broadway" and a customized ATI GPU called "Hollywood". It's these customizations that Nintendo has been getting done for years that gives them an edge. If the API is the same (but expanded) then software compatibility can easily be maintained. Isn't that how 'OS-compliant' software for the A500 runs on the A1200?
Finally, please don't respond.
Revolution is coming, it has a poop-load more power than even the A1G4 and it has a hard drive and it will support HD displays. It overcomes all your complaints. Now would be the time for a legitimate developer who cares about promoting the Amiga platform to join the revolution (pardon the pun).
Nintendo is now open to alternative entertainment.
They are into "non-games".
Rumor has it they have licensed Palm OS for a future Nintendo DS product!
Why not AMIGA OS? For DS? For Revolution?
Viva la Revolution!
-
(Can't be arsed to read the entire thread from post one).
So you're going to make OS4 run on the GameCube or something? :-?
-
>Now would be the time for a legitimate developer who cares
>about promoting the Amiga platform to join the revolution
>(pardon the pun).
Again, why don't you sit down and write up a business plan around your idea? Simply saying that some developer that's not you should "Port AmigaOS to Gamecube/Revolution" is not anywhere near a business plan. You need to be convincing to those who make financial decisions. Do you even know what Nintendo's contract terms for such an undertaking are? No, you don't just buy a dev kit and go to work...
What are Nintendo's terms for distributing software that runs on their hardware? Do they get a license fee of any kind, and how much? How much detail does hardware documentation (ie. as needed to write drivers for it) include inthe dev kit? Is this suitable, or must more detailed documentation be licensed seperately? What terms and fees are associated with that? And on and on and on.
Do some research into this. Get some real answers to such questions that any businessman will want answered before he'd ever seriously consider such a thing. Guesses are equal to "I have no clue". Assumptions are equal to "I have no clue". Beliefs are equal to "I have no clue". You either know each particular detail for absolute fact and would be willing to bet a very large sum of money (as in many many many thousands of dollars, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars) that you are correct, or you have no clue on each particular detail. You're asking some developer to wager such a large sum of money to do this for you, it's only fair to ask that you're personally willing to lose that same amount of money in your proposal if you're wrong. If you are not willing to wager your own money, then why should the businessman you're pitching it to take the same risk on your behalf?
If you seriously pitched this business plan to someone, why would he be willing to risk his house being reposessed? Not a dumb question, as a mortgage sized bank loan would likely be required, and possibly much more than that, to actually do what you're talking about. If you have well researched and good answers to the kinds of detailed questions a businessman would ask, there may be an opportunity for you to make money here.
If you're not willing to do the research yourself, you must not believe in it enough to be worth your time. And if it isn't worth your time or energy to find out so much information for yourself (to explain to developers/bunenessmen), then you'll never talk a businessman or developer into it either.
-
The fact that Revolution is backwards compatible, will include a hard drive and will have a familiar API makes the issue current and revelant.
"Compatible" isn't quite accurate. The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time. That's fine for games, but not for a PC.
Xbox talk is quite off-topic not only for this site but for this thread The XBOX is a PC in game machine's clothing
Um, aren't you talking about turning a console into a PC? The XBox is architectually better suited for the job. But, you just don't like that puny little Celeron.
You quoted a floating point performance value of the G3 in the GC and compared it to a value in the XBOX's GPU
Sorry, wrong Amiga.org member. Re-read your own thread.
Give me the XBOX's Celeron's Gflop measure or give me nothing.
My point is that the Celeron isn't the only chip in the XBox that does floating point math, and each chip in the system does math differently. You seem to be obsessed about the Celeron and completely overlook nVidia's chipset, though.
For game machines, the developer kit includes drivers and an API that get loaded in with the final game disc, it always hits the metal. That's why game machine are so efficient at playing games...shocker!
And so totally poor at anything but games. Yeah, you can write an API to run in kernel mode because anything can run in kernel mode. However, the APIs still give instructions to the drivers, and the drivers do the work. Abstraction isn't just about performance. Sometimes they, you know, might actually make a programmer's life easier, or make the system a hell of a lot more stable.
The machine is a hacker's dream...unfortunately I am not a teenager with endless time on my hands. Again, I'm just exploring the idea and getting hit on the head for it.
So, you're talking about a hacker's dream, but you're not a hacker?
I thought the whole reason the AmigaOne was developed is because people don't want to hack anymore, and want a modern system?
I don't see any GC title having poor boot time.
Ah, so obviously the hardware is responsible for that. Every console has its share of games that will either boot up in 5 seconds, or 2 minutes, though I'm only familiar with PS2 titles. To me, the boot times for Ratchet and Clank are amazingly fast, while Burnout3 is unbearable. I suppose the PS2's DVD drive just works slower when running Burnout3?
Also, I just explained how the GC can read SD memory cards so not performance hit there.
Not all SD cards are the same performance, and it also depends on the quality of your reader. I know, because I work in a photography store and use memory cards all the time. Each reader in the store has different performance, even though they can all read SD cards.
You're also not factoring in CPU utilization and other grunt work.
I'm just showing how people on this board can get what they have been asking for at a lower cost.
You mean the "hacker's dream," instead of a real computer?
Like I said, add on all that other hardware, and the cost advantage to the Gamecube itself dwindles. What were you just saying about PS/2 keyboard adapters and card readers?
Commodore and every would-be owner since then had always tried to license the technology for set-top boxes of one form or another.
PCs are designed to be flexible. It's a lot easier to take a "real" computer and turn it into a set-top box, than to go the other way around. If you actually tried to make an OS for Gamecube yourself, you might realize that.
But, you're not into development. You're into ideas.
I guess people want a single-bus system that offers the same inefficiencies of the WINTEL platform they are deathly trying to avoid.
Single bus? Would you care to elaborate on that, especially compared to a highly-optimized closed architecture designed only to play games, like Gamecube?
Remember, it's the Gamecube's "custom chips" that makes it more efficient. Does that sound familiar?
Yes. I'm running an Abit IS7 motherboard with a Radeon 9800 Pro, an Audigy2, integrated networking and joystick, USB, 1394, a flexible memory architecture that can take up to 4 memory modules, and a flashable BIOS. Plus more, but I can't be bothered to dig up my manual and look up all the features.
Would you care to list how many custom chips are in my machine?
And before you start complaining about the cost of all that stuff, it's worth noting that you can get fully-integrated PC motherboards that are cheaper than my setup, which, after all, is the whole reason for getting a PC instead of a closed architecture like a game console.
Commodity is more important than raw performance. The entire PC industry depends on that principle.
If the API is the same (but expanded) then software compatibility can easily be maintained. Isn't that how 'OS-compliant' software for the A500 runs on the A1200?
Technically, yes, if the APIs were designed to work that way. The problem is, the Amiga's APIs where designed for mutitasking, the Gamecube APIs are not. The OS would have to have all of its own user-mode APIs to abstract the Gamecube APIs (in other words, wrappers, which are anything but efficient).
Finally, please don't respond
Oh, I forgot... this is your thread.
Revolution is coming, it has a poop-load more power than even the A1G4 and it has a hard drive and it will support HD displays.
Everything is more powerful than AmigaOne (and less buggy, too). Saying you're better than the lowest-common-denominator says little.
It overcomes all your complaints.
Except for the fact you were hyping Gamecube. Now that Revolution has been announced, that's all you care about, despite that fact it's architecture is more closely related to that cheezy, Celeron-powered Wintel... thing.
Of course, XBox was "off topic" because it wasn't PPC. Now that Revolution has been announced, will you make Gamecube off topic, too?
Why not AMIGA OS? For DS? For Revolution?
Because:
1) This thread was about Gamecube, not Revolution or DS.
2) DS is a joke except for PDA-type tasks, in which case, use a regular PDA or one of those new, mutifunction cell phones which are actually designed to do that stuff.
3) Hyperion is not interested in anything but "their" platform, AmigaOne, so the Amiga Revolution isn't going to happen.
Of course, don't let that stop you from trying to get OS4 working on it. Have fun.
-
Waccoon wrote:
"Compatible" isn't quite accurate. The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time. That's fine for games, but not for a PC.
The PS2 is backwards compatible with the PS1 because Sony included all the PS1's chips into the PS2. That's publicly known. It's not a "software emulation".
Xbox talk is quite off-topic not only for this site but for this thread The XBOX is a PC in game machine's clothing
Um, aren't you talking about turning a console into a PC? The XBox is architectually better suited for the job. But, you just don't like that puny little Celeron.
I'm talking about Amigas not PC's. Anything not related to Nintendo or Amiga hardware and software is off-topic. I thought that was pretty obvious. If I wanted a cheap PC...well I already have one...and one not so cheap.
You quoted a floating point performance value of the G3 in the GC and compared it to a value in the XBOX's GPU
Sorry, wrong Amiga.org member. Re-read your own thread.
Give me the XBOX's Celeron's Gflop measure or give me nothing.
My point is that the Celeron isn't the only chip in the XBox that does floating point math, and each chip in the system does math differently. You seem to be obsessed about the Celeron and completely overlook nVidia's chipset, though.
yes so the GC's GPU can do that as well but you or whomever ignored that and compared an XBOX GPU's math processing the math processing power of the G3 in the 'Cube. My point is that it wasn't a fair comparison.
I don't see any GC title having poor boot time.
Ah, so obviously the hardware is responsible for that. Every console has its share of games that will either boot up in 5 seconds, or 2 minutes, though I'm only familiar with PS2 titles. To me, the boot times for Ratchet and Clank are amazingly fast, while Burnout3 is unbearable. I suppose the PS2's DVD drive just works slower when running Burnout3?
You are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems. That's compared against the same title on all systems (not different ones) so I can see where you get your worries. Read my text: the Gamecube doesn't suffer from long loading times. The PS2 does and so do games that don't partly install on the XBOX's hard drive. Yes it partly depends on the game itself but when you compare the same game on all 3 platforms, the Gamecube is just faster.
Also, I just explained how the GC can read SD memory cards so not performance hit there.
Not all SD cards are the same performance, and it also depends on the quality of your reader. I know, because I work in a photography store and use memory cards all the time. Each reader in the store has different performance, even though they can all read SD cards.
You're also not factoring in CPU utilization and other grunt work.
Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy. Really, I think you like to hear yourself argue moot points.
Like I said, add on all that other hardware, and the cost advantage to the Gamecube itself dwindles. What were you just saying about PS/2 keyboard adapters and card readers?
here ya go:
used gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60
Max Drive for Gamecube $39.99
http://us.codejunkies.com/shop/product.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&ProdID=297
Powerboard (keyboard) $19.99
http://us.codejunkies.com/shop/product.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&ProdID=167
Nintendo Boradband Adapter $34.99
http://store.nintendo.com do a search for 'broadband'
And you can score most of that stuff off ebay for less. I got my broadband adapter for $21 on ebay. If you don't wnat to get the Powerboard, I've seen this adapter:
http://store.yahoo.com/videogamesdepo/gamkeyadnewg.html
on ebay sell for $8, then you can use a spare ps2 keyboard.
So even if you bought a brand new GC, you'd spend a whopping $200. The horror. I can see why zealots of the A1 will continue to bash my idea.
Here's a link to Billt's site:
http://www.forefronttechnologiesinc.com/Products/?item=105
for the low low price of $1044 you get:
750Fx G3 PowerPC CPU @ 800MHz (upgradable) fan cooled
ATI Radeon 7000 onboard video with 32MB DDR, including SVGA, S-Video, and Composite outputs
CMI8738 6-channel (5.1) surround sound audio onboard
1 SODIMM socket (populated with 256MB module)
1 32-bit PCI slot (riser optional)
2 UDMA IDE connectors
3Com 920C 10/100Mbps Ethernet
2 USB connectors + 2 optional
Floppy connector
1 game & 1 parallel port
1 serial port (on header)
PS/2 keyboard & mouse connectors
so no hard drive, keyboard, mouse or monitor...
The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000. The 'Cube's dsp sound chip supports Dolby THX Pro Logic II Surround and has 64 channels. The Gx is newer than the Fx and also runs on a faster bus so the CPU performance is marginal. No keyboard included here so my price is down to $180. Yeah you get stuff like more RAM and actual hardrvie connectors (no hard drive though). For almost $900 in savings, I'd make due just fine with just 40MB of ram and better graphics and sound and boot from a memory card(which is faster). If I wanted to print something, I'd get a network printer and do it over LAN. If I want HD storage, I can do that over LAN too mapped to my PC or to a dedicated LAN storage device.
Think about this. The GBA player for the gamecube is just an interface to read a GBA cartrige and emulate it on the Gamecube. It comes with a disc that communicates with the highspeed port and GBA player. Nintendo sold it for $50 new. The highspeed parallel port that it uses on the GC supports a transfer rate of 81MB/s. If you can create a whole motherboard (A1), wouldn't it be much simpler to create an I/O device to give you all the ports (usb, IDE, etc...) and channel the information to the high speed port? I'm sure it's alot cheaper than a complete motherboard (no cpu socket needed).
Yes continue to bash my ideas. I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.
No I am not a hacker. If I took a copy of Amiga OS and hacked it and made it run on a GC, I would be breaking the law. It will not be me that tries to make this happen. All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.
If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license. This could be done quicker than the way things have been getting done. Bash me because I won't do it. I don't hold the licenses. I'm not the OS developer. I'm not a hardware engineer. It's not my IP. But I know enough about it to tell you that it is feasible. I say it because I have no underlying interests to protect.
This could be done for the forth-coming Nintendo Revolution and you'd have modern hardware and whatever else you wanted. Eyetech could make an add-on device to give you any ports you might be missing and it would still be cheaper than $1044...
If it wasn't feasible, would an A1 ever have been conceptualized? Would any product ever exist? Get real. Don't hate me for stating the obvious faults with the road being travelled. My road isn't perfect but it was just a suggestion about a low-cost alternative and suddenly I became the anti-christ. Darn zealots...
-
LOL, it's been 4 days and no bashing. Pretty tough to argue with the potential to own a PPC Amiga for $155. This has been exactly my point from the beginning.
Now you want a faster machine? G5?
The forthcoming Nintendo Revolution.
It's going to have an enhanced IBM G5 (no speed has been finalized, Nintendo is waiting to hear exactly how fast a CELL processor the PS3 will have). HDTV resolutions. True surround sound. Built-in harddrive. Built-in Wi-Fi. MODERN ATI gpu. (Also, this time it will definitely play DVDs out of the box) New touchscreen controllers with gyros (supposedly the ports are also going to be backwards-compatible with current GC controllers for the hardcore gamer)...and it will all still cost well under $1000.
Now is the time to get a developer's license. Wake up Hyperion. If the HAL is truely there, this licensed product could pay for itself many times over just in the techie/nerd/hacker community. I don't remember if OS4 is going to have a classic Amiga emulator but since 'retro' bundles are all the rage, you could bundle one with some of your own titles in order to offer an entertainment value for the product.
How many users on this formum already own and support a console (GC,PS2,XBOX)? They burn money on those systems on a monthly basis. The market is $25 billion annually with room to grow. How many A1's will you derive profits from? Maybe 10,000? The poorest and lowest rated title on any console will sell atleast 50,000 copies and that's even if every reviewer says "don't buy this game."
Also, I'm not alienating Eyetech here either. If they can get an A1 designed and built, they can get a licensed add-on device to a GC or Revolution that will give you your usb ports, serial ports, ide ports, etc...
One of the big criticisms I got was "we want to get away from custom hardware..." So I guess the A1 is not considered "custom hardware"... Where's the logic there? It's exactly custom hardware. Everything is custom hardware. It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for. Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware? Unless you are modelling nuclear physics and the 'theory of relativity', going through an OS-compliant API for displaying graphics and sound will be just fine. People, be realistic with your needs and expectations.
-
@lou_dias
Could you PLEASE edit that horrible 2km long url away? It makes the thread impossible to read.
LOL, it's been 4 days and no bashing. Pretty tough to argue with the potential to own a PPC Amiga for $155. This has been exactly my point from the beginning.
Or the point is that no-one cares and has given up arguing.
Now is the time to get a developer's license. Wake up Hyperion. If the HAL is truely there, this licensed product could pay for itself many times over just in the techie/nerd/hacker community.
If this truly is so good business, why don't you contact both Hyperion/Amiga, Inc and Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft and arrange the AmigaOS port?
Since it's going to pay many times over, I am sure you are happy to take the risk.
Time to put your money where your mouth is.
-
I just saw the update to Amiga Inc.'s website.
Isn't it nice to see all the diffent platforms Amiga Anywhere is on? Why not add on or 2 more to that list?
Yes yes, I know Amiga Anywhere isn't OS4... The point is: It seems the new owners want to spread the brand. Make the name AMIGA a brand people recognize once again. Let's see the Amiga OS running on a popular consumer device.
-
@lou_dias
Isn't it nice to see all the diffent platforms Amiga Anywhere is on?
I haven't seen any, mostly because it really isn't anywhere. That's quite telling. It's rather Amiga Nowhere.
Why not add on or 2 more to that list?
Contact Amiga, Inc about it? Or ask the CEO Garry Hare about it tomorrow (sunday).
The point is: It seems the new owners want to spread the brand. Make the name AMIGA a brand people recognize once again. Let's see the Amiga OS running on a popular consumer device.
The problem here is that many of the old Amigans have real trouble seeing Amiga diminishing to something like this (casino slot machines is the best they can do for the new corporate website front page?), and the good name (well good in late 80s and early 90s) being trashed with such nonsense.
It didn't work year 2000, and it will not work 2005.
-
Piru wrote:
@lou_dias
Could you PLEASE edit that horrible 2km long url away? It makes the thread impossible to read.
it's on a separate line and not between important text. I'm not going to change it and make it a bad link. Does this forum support anchor tags? If so I can edit it the link. Please let me know.
Or the point is that no-one cares and has given up arguing.
obviously you haven't and have you noticed the 'views' count of this thread. Obviously there is interest in this.
If this truly is so good business, why don't you contact both Hyperion/Amiga, Inc and Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft and arrange the AmigaOS port?
Since it's going to pay many times over, I am sure you are happy to take the risk.
Time to put your money where your mount is.
I don't own a mount. Anyway, I've stated many times who the key players are that can get this done. I've stated that I don't have the money or time to invest in this. Saying 'you do it if it's such a good idea' to me is lame already.
People cried out that they wanted a hardware to call an Amiga again... How many own an A1? How many want to spend the money? Put your money where your mouth(not mount) is and buy an A1. I won't stop you.
Maybe Wayne could start a new poll?
What do you already own?:
A1
Gamcube
Both
Neither
I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.
and maybe another poll...
Within the next year, what will you buy?:
A1
Sony PS3
Microsoft Xbox 360
Nintendo Revolution
multiple systems
None of the above
I'll bet my life on the fact that there will be 10 times more future console owners than future A1 owners. If Hyperion released OS4 on 1 of them then I'll bet that that is the one the people on this forum would be leaning towards to buy. I just happen to be pushing for the Nintendo product. That's just my personal preference.
I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this? Do you own stock in Eyetech or Forefront Tech? OS4 for a console benefits the Amiga community as a whole and Hyperion and Amiga Inc.'s wallet. It will spread the brand name as well.
-
it's on a separate line and not between important text. I'm not going to change it and make it a bad link.
Sigh. RTFM?
{url=http://www.longslinkssuck.com}suck{/url}
(replace {} with [])
Anyway, all I am saying is: If this is so good business, someone would have done it already. If someone else doesn't pick it up (for whatever reason), and you still think it's worth it, you do it and make a fortune with the business.
That's the best way to make your point. Arguing about it on a web forum isn't taking it anywhere.
-
LOOOOUUUUUUU!!!!! PLease edit that URL!!!!
Cheers :-)
[ url=putTheUrlHere]Title[/url ]
(without spaces)
oops sorry Piru . . . 2 seconds too late ;-)
EDIT- that in italian time are 2 minutes . . .
-
Piru wrote:
@lou_dias
I haven't seen any, mostly because it really isn't anywhere. That's quite telling. It's rather Amiga Nowhere.
Actually I have seen Amiga Anywhere at Staples or OfficeMax in the US but I forget what PDA it was for. It was 2 years ago I think. The DE line is not a product I am interested in...I was just emphasizing a point of putting the Amiga brand name on more platforms.
The problem here is that many of the old Amigans have real trouble seeing Amiga diminishing to something like this (casino slot machines is the best they can do for the new corporate website front page?), and the good name (well good in late 80s and early 90s) being trashed with such nonsense.
It didn't work year 2000, and it will not work 2005.
Yes, too many zealots. I'm after the real thing, the future.
Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing. Many anti-MS people stay away from Apple because of the high $$$ investment in the hardware. A console is a cheap solution. I am for anything anti-MS but never the less, I still use a PC with Windows on it. I keep using my copy of Win2000 on any machine I build. I will not buy XP or any newer version. I don't want to continue supporting MS.
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it. For $49.99 I would definitely buy it. Doesn't it currently cost somewhere around $125US? When your target for sales is 10,000 copies the most, it would have to cost that much. However, when you can sell closer to 100,000 copies with the potential for a million or more, it's easy to sell it for $49.99!
-
@lou_dias
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it. For $49.99 I would definitely buy it. Doesn't it currently cost somewhere around $125US? When your target for sales is 10,000 copies the most, it would have to cost that much. However, when you can sell closer to 100,000 copies with the potential for a million or more, it's easy to sell it for $49.99!
Well, that sounds good in theory, actually making it work is another thing. Until someone makes it work, I won't agree, however.
Feel free to prove your point.
PS. How about editing that long link?
-
long link editted. It didn't work so I just posted a link to nintendo's online store...
Piru wrote:
@lou_dias
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it. For $49.99 I would definitely buy it. Doesn't it currently cost somewhere around $125US? When your target for sales is 10,000 copies the most, it would have to cost that much. However, when you can sell closer to 100,000 copies with the potential for a million or more, it's easy to sell it for $49.99!
Well, that sounds good in theory, actually making it work is another thing. Until someone makes it work, I won't agree, however.
Feel free to prove your point.
PS. How about editing that long link?
Hey, wasn't it 'us' Amigans that cried out loudly enough and got a developer (Hyperion/Eyetech) interested in creating the A1 and OS4 in the first place. If enough interest was shown by enough of us potential customers, they would do it. I'm just not going to shell out $1000+ for an overpriced outdated hardware platform. I'd get an IMac first if I wanted to get a non-MS platform at that 'entry-level' price. A $49.99 price on hardware I already own has 'mass market' potential. The A1 is not a mass market platform. I can build a Linux box for $200. That is the market Amiga can hit with a console port. I consider OS4 a much better product than Linux (not very user-friendly) and I'd pay the $49.99 (vs free Linux or vs Windows). Generating high sales is what will allow for continued support and development of the OS and platform as a whole.
Wasn't it forums like this where the noise was made?
-
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7502
Interesting comment on the games industry and alludes to the fact of why I believe Nintendo would be open to having an OS run on their platform.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Piru wrote:
Or the point is that no-one cares and has given up arguing.
obviously you haven't and have you noticed the 'views' count of this thread. Obviously there is interest in this.
The topic title of "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" is misleading, resulting in hopefull people clicking it. Plus, lots of "zealots" keep coming back to laugh at a Nintendo fanboy's ramblings.
Had you called the thread "OS4 on Gamecube" things would probably be different.
-
adolescent wrote:
The topic title of "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" is misleading, resulting in hopefull people clicking it. Plus, lots of "zealots" keep coming back to laugh at a Nintendo fanboy's ramblings.
Had you called the thread "OS4 on Gamecube" things would probably be different.
What do you find misleading about a PPC hardware platform that could run Amiga OS and only costs $155?
What is misleading is 2 1/2 years ago saying something is 95% done...and promising a low-cost motherboard that costs $1044 with a $15 video card. The current A1 is late 90's technology. Modern hardware indeed. The Amiga started as a console and should return to it's roots with pride not the shame this thread has treated it with. My CD32 was a console I expanded into a computer. Should I be ashamed? Was it any less an Amiga?
The SX-1 and and SX32 were add-ons that filled in the missing pieces. Things like this can still be done today. I only see a couple of people laughing. I think most are crying at the plain truths I have stated. The truth hurts and not many care to discuss it.
You can call me a Nintendo fanboy. Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology. Do you own an A1? Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic? If not, do you even plan on buying one? Why or why not? Please enlighten us.
-
The PS2 is backwards compatible with the PS1 because Sony included all the PS1's chips into the PS2. That's publicly known. It's not a "software emulation".
I'll say this again... "The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time"
To do those things, you NEED some sort of emulation. Games don't need to do those things. PCs do.
I suppose if you only play games on your Amiga all day, that's fine, but then, there's always WinUAE.
I'm talking about Amigas not PC's
"PC" means Personal Computer. If you look at the Amiga as a console, no wonder you think Gamecube is adaquate.
you or whomever ignored that and compared an XBOX GPU's math processing the math processing power of the G3 in the 'Cube.
Well, which is it? Me, or "whomever?"
You are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems.
So? You're focusing too much on the hardware itself and not on usage. Even the best hardware in the world is crap if you use it incorrectly. The Gamecube's CD drive is really no different than any other mini-disc drive, and saying it would get blazing performance due to low seek times is myopic, especially with the unit's very, very small memory cache. The unit was designed to stream data, not work with a filesystem.
Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy
It can be if it's not done right. It depends how flexible the controller bus is on the Gamecube, and I'd have to look at the Gamecube hardware docs to know that. Since you're the expert on the hardware, what's the throughput of the controller bus, are the busses independent?
used Gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60
Oh, so now you're basing your prices on used and Ebay'd hardware?
for the low low price of $1044 you get:
Crap, but that's what you need to run OS4, legally. I could build a comparable system on the PC for less than $275 -- a lot less if it's used. That would blow away the Gamecube and be a "real" computer to boot, with PCI expansion, no hacks to add hardware, and the ability to do things that many modern PCs should do, like... burn CDs.
I was under the impression that this thread was about Amiga in general, and not just OS4.
Also note that the AmigaOne includes OS4, and it's hard to tell how much OS4 costs by itself since they don't sell it seperately... at least not yet.
The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000.
Again, you're droning about the performance of the hardware, not the usage. Also, OS drivers are very different from console drivers, but I already discussed that.
I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.
What would that be?
All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.
How would Gamecube fix that? Bugs and pathces are the result of development practices and flawed software design. The limited flexibility of Gamecube's architecture wouldn't make running "AmigaCube" software any easier on Revolution without a lot of emulation.
If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license.
I wish them luck, especially seeing how Nintendo bleeds lots of money on those machines and would want a hefty licensce fee. You're not taking that into account when you spew prices, of course.
Don't hate me for stating the obvious faults with the road being travelled.
Lots of people see faults in the road, but Amigans are famous for hair-brained ideas that aren't future-proof. Also, you're overlooking a lot of hidden costs. The Mac Mini is quite comparable to a game console. Gee, there must be a reason it costs a minimum of $500 without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.
LOL, it's been 4 days and no bashing.
While I'm passionate about computers, I don't live here, you know.
(On Revolution): ...it will all still cost well under $1000.
So? How many other platforms are less than $1000? This isn't the 1980's, anymore, though Hyperion seems to think so.
One of the big criticisms I got was "we want to get away from custom hardware..." So I guess the A1 is not considered "custom hardware"...
I'll give you that one. But note that there's little "custom" about the AmigaOne other than the CPU. It's all based on PC standards. It's just that the standards are several years old and horribly overpriced. Many Amiga.org members got upset when the AmigaOne was announced, especially after the promise of running Amiga software on any platform.
It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for.
Is this why you roasted me many posts ago that Gamecube are designed to hit the metal, and that was a good thing that made them so damned efficient?
Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware?
Process management is what the OS is for. But, process management only works if the hardware *and* APIs are designed to run in user mode. They are not, so Amiga would have to write their own APIs that use GC APIs like drivers, and that would be a real mess.
Yes yes, I know Amiga Anywhere isn't OS4... The point is: It seems the new owners want to spread the brand.
Hmm... if the brand means distributing cheezy games that can easily be done with Java, I think many people would pass. I'm sure most people agree that "Amiga" is the PC made in the 80's through 90's. Amiga Anywhere is essentially a brand new platform that most Amigans know little about.
Plus, Amiga Anywhere cannot run old Amiga applications without an emulator.
Oh yeah, and Amiga Anywhere is not an OS. If you want AA on Gamecube or whatever, you still need a host OS. So, back to square one.
I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.
I don't suppose "good software" and "huge marketting budget" has anything to do with that. Also note that only 10% of the non-mobile game colsole market belongs to Nintendo. You've said very, very little of Nintendo's competitors, especially seeing how XBox already has much of what Revolution will have.
I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this?
Part of the trick of pusing an "idea" is Proof of Concept. All you've been talking about is prices and hacks. You're not taking into consideration any of the technical issues related to getting a "real" OS working on a console, including development budget or licensing.
That's why people aren't taking your idea seriously. I love the idea of a portable sub $200 computer. In fact, I'm still debating whether to buy a Mac mini. However, I know enough about OS development to know it's not techically feasable to get a multitasking OS working on console hardware, and I also know there's a lot of hidden costs you're not mentioning.
The DE line is not a product I am interested in...I was just emphasizing a point of putting the Amiga brand name on more platforms.
Oh. Just the brand name. That makes sense.
Do you have a sudden urge to buy a Commodore MP3 player?
Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing.
Note that Linux was designed to be a low-cost UNIX clone for college students, and was x86 exclusive, to boot. It was the development of GNU, the porting of X11, and a huge rewrite with Kernel 2.0 that made Linux a real contender. The only way AmigaOS could hope to have the same following is if it went open source. Otherwise, it would take more money than you could imagine to get the "Linux Buzz" for the Amiga.
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it.
I don't think "cheap" had anything to do with it. Piracy? Locked firmware? Politics? That's more like it.
Besides, Gamecube is cheap because it is nearing the end of its life and didn't live up to expectations (assuming it hasn't already been taken out of manufacture). When Revolution shipps, it will be powerful, but won't quite fit the tab as a cheap platform, anymore, especialy with the mandatory development licenses attached.
I'm just not going to shell out $1000+ for an overpriced outdated hardware platform. I'd get an IMac first if I wanted to get a non-MS platform at that 'entry-level' price. A $49.99 price on hardware I already own has 'mass market' potential. The A1 is not a mass market platform. I can build a Linux box for $200.
I believe that's what x86 Amigan have been saying all along. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had plenty of time and arguments to render their decision, and they chose an expensive, buggy, outdated, expensive PPC platform.
Maybe the problem is that the people in charge don't give a damn? Your Gamecube arguments are similar to x86 arguments. Amiga and Hyperion turned them down, and show little interest in changing their minds, especially now that they are stuck with PPC whether they like it or not.
From hereon, only Amiga Anywhere actually matters. OS4 is lost. And, personally, I see very little "Amiga" in Amiga Anywhere, other than the fact it's a cheezy gaming platform which can be done with Java and done even better with Flash (people really don't see the sheer genius of Flash as a compact, efficient platform at all).
adolescent: Had you called the thread "OS4 on Gamecube" things would probably be different.
Yeah, but then he couldn't have changed his focus to Revolution.
Wasn't it forums like this where the noise was made?
It's also a forum like this where you told me not to reply to your posts, anymore.
-
What do you find misleading about a PPC hardware platform that could run Amiga OS and only costs $155?
The fact is can't cost $155 with all the software and license fees included?
The SX-1 and and SX32 were add-ons that filled in the missing pieces.
The CD32 was a full computer that had been stripped into a console. The Gamecube is the opposite. Plus, the CD32 existed in a time where memory protection was a non-issue (Win98, anyone?), and people still hit the metal when programming.
Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware. Especially not Gamecube.
I think most are crying at the plain truths I have stated.
A serious question: have you ever worked on an OS before?
Do you own an A1? Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic? If not, do you even plan on buying one?
Nope. I'm here to follow new ideas in the high-level parts of OS design, as well as other neat things I can do with my A1200, which I still use on occasion. I have little but a macabre interest in what happens to OS4, as I feel it has no future at all.
Amiga as a PC platform (meaning Personal Computer, and not a purpose-built workhorse), is very much dead. That's a plain truth.
-
/insert $0.02
I have to admit, I'd be a lot more tempted by a OS4+GameCube-SX1 style daugterboard add-on, than any of the A1 packages.
If no worthwhile software ever gets written for OS4, at least you've still got the modest GC game library to fall back on.
Running OS4 on the 'Cube is certainly possible, if not plausible. Though It's a lot more plausible than some of the wishful thinking Ive heard, like "run OS4 on PS3". Pfft!
I dont think the Amiga community gets to criticise ideas based on their plausibility... :-P
-
lou_dias wrote:
You can call me a Nintendo fanboy. Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology. Do you own an A1? Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic? If not, do you even plan on buying one? Why or why not? Please enlighten us.
No, I don't own an A1.
No, I'm not bashing you because I bought one, I'm bashing you because your idea is silly for reasons stated on page one of this thread. If you started a thread about OS4 on Mac Mini I'd agree, because thats a suitable platform for the OS. But, as a Nintendo fanboy you think the GC can do everything, including host a fairly modern OS. Well, it can't.
No, not unless the price is dropped, bugs are fixed, and OS4 is finished.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
You can call me a Nintendo fanboy. Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology. Do you own an A1? Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic? If not, do you even plan on buying one? Why or why not? Please enlighten us.
No, I don't own an A1.
No, I'm not bashing you because I bought one, I'm bashing you because your idea is silly for reasons stated on page one of this thread. If you started a thread about OS4 on Mac Mini I'd agree, because thats a suitable platform for the OS. But, as a Nintendo fanboy you think the GC can do everything, including host a fairly modern OS. Well, it can't.
No, not unless the price is dropped, bugs are fixed, and OS4 is finished.
The GC is already running Linux.
http://www.gc-linux.org/
What price are you referring to that needs the be dropped? The GC is $99US brand new.
-
Waccoon wrote:
The fact is can't cost $155 with all the software and license fees included?
That's the basic end user cost for getting the system running with a keyboard. I didn't include/compare the cost of the OS against the Forefront A1 price because I don't know the cost of the OS...I can only guess abot $125-200. License fees are paid by developers and would be included in the cost of the OS not the hardware.
The CD32 was a full computer that had been stripped into a console. The Gamecube is the opposite. Plus, the CD32 existed in a time where memory protection was a non-issue (Win98, anyone?), and people still hit the metal when programming.
Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware. Especially not Gamecube.
All classic Amigas have a 'game-machine' design. In other words, there are usually 2 system buses and it's the GPU that controls memory access. The GC is no different.
A serious question: have you ever worked on an OS before?
I worked on a lexican analyzer in college back in '91 when I was a computer engineering student at UMass-Amherst. It essential is a dos-like command line interpreter. Wrote it in ADA as well as the 'dos' functions it was designed to respond to. This was for a VAX VMS system. I do have a stong computer programming background and some engineering background on the hardware side too.
Nope. I'm here to follow new ideas in the high-level parts of OS design, as well as other neat things I can do with my A1200, which I still use on occasion. I have little but a macabre interest in what happens to OS4, as I feel it has no future at all.
Amiga as a PC platform (meaning Personal Computer, and not a purpose-built workhorse), is very much dead. That's a plain truth.
Then it sounds like you should have no interest in this thread what-so-ever.
-
Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware. Especially not Gamecube.
Bollocks.
NOTHING is impossible.
The dreamcast ran WindowsCE, NetBSD, and Linux 7 years ago.
The PS2 has had Linux for the last 4 years.
Gamecube has linux currently.
So to say a small, not very complex by comparison, operating system such as AmigaOS couldn't run on one of todays systems is laughable.
Could the GC run AmigaOS? Yes.
Will it ever run AmigaOS? Not likely.
-
I'll say this again... "The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time"
To do those things, you NEED some sort of emulation. Games don't need to do those things. PCs do.
I suppose if you only play games on your Amiga all day, that's fine, but then, there's always WinUAE.
I'll say this again. PS2 includes the exact same hardware as PS1 in order to run PS1 software. If it was a software emulation then 'enhancements' could be patched in. Iwata (Nintendo president) has stated in his keynote address at the GDC 10 days ago that development kits for Revolution will be familiar to current GC developers. That leads me to believe that the API's will be similar. If you go to Metrowerks's site on CodeWarrior for the Gamecube, you will notice that is was used to write the Gamecube's OS. All game machines have an OS. Some disk-based games on classic Amigas loaded a subset of the Amiga OS that they needed for the game. For the games that 'hit the metal' themselves, those are the ones with compatibility issues. I can't tell you exactly why Revolution will be backwards ompatible but since Nintendo is sticking with IBM and ATI it could be hardware-backwards compatible but I wouldn't rule out a software emulation that could enhance certain 3D graphical effects like PS1 and N64 software emulators do on the PC.
I'm talking about Amigas not PC's
"PC" means Personal Computer. If you look at the Amiga as a console, no wonder you think Gamecube is adaquate.
I've been on this site long enough to know that when someone says 'PC' they mean a Wintel box. Yes the Amiga is a personal computer but to me it's an Amiga, not a PC. I don't know why you keep ignoring the Amiga's game-machine roots. Every Amiga built was designed like a game machine. Only the A1 has a 'PC' architecture. Oh and isn't the A1 running PPC Linux? Funny, so is the Gamecube.
http://www.gc-linux.org
You are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems.
So? You're focusing too much on the hardware itself and not on usage. Even the best hardware in the world is crap if you use it incorrectly. The Gamecube's CD drive is really no different than any other mini-disc drive, and saying it would get blazing performance due to low seek times is myopic, especially with the unit's very, very small memory cache. The unit was designed to stream data, not work with a filesystem.
Actually the PS2 and XBOX stream data faster than the Gamecube. As I've stated before, where the Gamecube excells is when loading many different files in succession. It's faster spinning, lower average seek time drive is what brings down loading times of many games. Again that depends on the design of the game/application. An OS consists of many files and GC games come to a start/options menu quicker that the other 2. The GC has an OS that comes on every disc not built-in to BIOS.
Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy
It can be if it's not done right. It depends how flexible the controller bus is on the Gamecube, and I'd have to look at the Gamecube hardware docs to know that. Since you're the expert on the hardware, what's the throughput of the controller bus, are the busses independent?
used Gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60
Oh, so now you're basing your prices on used and Ebay'd hardware?
Is there something wrong with that? The GC is a sturdy system. Mines has fallen onto a wooden floor from a height of 2 1/2 feet on 3 seperate occassions and still works flawlessly. I have no qualms about purchasing a used GC. Also, you can buy 'new' hardware on Ebay from retailers who are looking to liquidate there inventory. I picked up Final Fantasy:Crystal Chronicles w/GBA link cable brand new in a plastic sealed box for $26.90 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8171712647&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT
That's about 1/2 price if I had bought it locally brand new. So what's your issue with Ebay or E.B.?
Also, about the memory card bus...I know on Mario Party 6, a microphone is plugged into the memory card port for the mini-games that offer voice recognition... So it would seem that the only reason to 'stop everything' to read/save to an actual memory card is to make sure the user knows not to pull it out or turn off the power will saving. Just common sense.
for the low low price of $1044 you get:
Crap, but that's what you need to run OS4, legally. I could build a comparable system on the PC for less than $275 -- a lot less if it's used. That would blow away the Gamecube and be a "real" computer to boot, with PCI expansion, no hacks to add hardware, and the ability to do things that many modern PCs should do, like... burn CDs.
Hey, I'm all about doing it legally. I think Hyperion and Amiga Inc. should get this license. Then Eyetech could design an SX-1-like addon to give you your IDE, usb, etc... The 81MB/second transfer rate of the GC's high speed parrallel port is no joke.
The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000.
Again, you're droning about the performance of the hardware, not the usage. Also, OS drivers are very different from console drivers, but I already discussed that.[/quote]
Come on now. You don't think that an ATI chip designed for a game console doesn't have optimized drivers? How is using an API for graphics on a game different from using is in another application such as a gui for an OS?
I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.
What would that be?
billt - Bill Toner of Forefront Technologies who wrote the Radeon 7000 driver and sells it with the A1 for $1044.
All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.
How would Gamecube fix that? Bugs and pathces are the result of development practices and flawed software design. The limited flexibility of Gamecube's architecture wouldn't make running "AmigaCube" software any easier on Revolution without a lot of emulation.
If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license.
I wish them luck, especially seeing how Nintendo bleeds lots of money on those machines and would want a hefty licensce fee. You're not taking that into account when you spew prices, of course.
The GC was/is a profitable console. The current GC costs about $107 to make and they sell it for $99. Originally it sold for $250, then $225, then $199, then $175, then $150 and finally $99. That price has only been in effect for the last year. How much of a license fee is part of a $49.99 title? You must think that publishers pay a $100 license fee per game and only sell it at $49.99...does that make sense? Also, license fees are negotiable. They are usually based on units sold. Either way, I don't see the average license fee being outside of the $5-$10 range per unit sold and is built into the $49.99 price. As a consumer, a license fee is irrelevant to me when I buy a game at $49.99. It's up to Hyperion and Amiga Inc. to negitiate a license fee, not me and you. Either way that will be built into the cost of the OS when you purchase it.
Lots of people see faults in the road, but Amigans are famous for hair-brained ideas that aren't future-proof. Also, you're overlooking a lot of hidden costs. The Mac Mini is quite comparable to a game console. Gee, there must be a reason it costs a minimum of $500 without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.
I don't believe Apple will be handing out a license to run another OS on there machine. So the Mac-mini is not a legal option.
(On Revolution): ...it will all still cost well under $1000.
So? How many other platforms are less than $1000? This isn't the 1980's, anymore, though Hyperion seems to think so.
Well, the XBOX 360 will not included a hard drive so that figures to be the least expensive of the 3 next gen consoles...but like the Apple issue, I don't think MS will hand out a license to run another OS on the platform. I can't believe any next-gen console will cost more than $500 initially...and they will be coming with fast and modern hardware.
It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for.
Is this why you roasted me many posts ago that Gamecube are designed to hit the metal, and that was a good thing that made them so damned efficient?
Actually my point is that the API's you get with the GC dev kit are as close to hitting the metal as you want to be. I believe it's these API's that will let Revolution be backwards compatible with GC. That goes back to Iwata's statements about a familiar development environment for Revolution to current GC developers. Nintendo knows the value of a system that is easy to program for. The N64 was not but the GC is as will be Revolution.
Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware?
Process management is what the OS is for. But, process management only works if the hardware *and* APIs are designed to run in user mode. They are not, so Amiga would have to write their own APIs that use GC APIs like drivers, and that would be a real mess.
The only API's from the GC that Hyperion would need is the graphics, sound, controller port, memory card port, LAN port and other I/O like the high speed port. This is all part of the HAL that they had to write for the A1. The kernal/process management part is part of the OS and is just PPC code (compiled 'C') that is already written. My point about porting OS4 to the GC is that all that need to be rewritten should be just the HAL (hardware abstraction layer).
I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.
I don't suppose "good software" and "huge marketting budget" has anything to do with that. Also note that only 10% of the non-mobile game colsole market belongs to Nintendo. You've said very, very little of Nintendo's competitors, especially seeing how XBox already has much of what Revolution will have.
XBOX is not PPC based so it would be a major rewrite of OS4 and as I've stated before is off-topic. My point is that since many more people already own a GC vs. A1, it would be fairly convenient for them to purchase OS4 for GC vs. also having to purchase an A1...
I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this?
Part of the trick of pusing an "idea" is Proof of Concept. All you've been talking about is prices and hacks. You're not taking into consideration any of the technical issues related to getting a "real" OS working on a console, including development budget or licensing.
That's why people aren't taking your idea seriously. I love the idea of a portable sub $200 computer. In fact, I'm still debating whether to buy a Mac mini. However, I know enough about OS development to know it's not techically feasable to get a multitasking OS working on console hardware, and I also know there's a lot of hidden costs you're not mentioning.
once again: http://www.gc-linux.org/
if it Linux can be hacked in, OS4 can be done legally and professionally at a profit to Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. Eyetech can also benefit from an SX-1-like addon. I already have an addon sitting underneath my GC - the GBA player. I'd have no problem replacing it with an addon that gives me IDE, usb...etc.. ports to be a 'full' computer running OS4. Such an addon can be designed for far less than a complete motherboard with ZIF socket...
Do you have a sudden urge to buy a Commodore MP3 player?
I don't have a use for a portable MP3 player but others may. People originally believe the Apple IPod wouldn't sell.
Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing.
Note that Linux was designed to be a low-cost UNIX clone for college students, and was x86 exclusive, to boot. It was the development of GNU, the porting of X11, and a huge rewrite with Kernel 2.0 that made Linux a real contender. The only way AmigaOS could hope to have the same following is if it went open source. Otherwise, it would take more money than you could imagine to get the "Linux Buzz" for the Amiga.
Linux is no longer x86 exclusive. Linux is already running on the GC and A1 didn't the original A1s come bundled with Linux... Once again: http://www.gc-linux.org/
Obviously the GC can run alternate OS's. Having a professionally supported OS with professional software titles is something OS4 would have over Linux. OS4 bundled with Ibrowse and some Hyperion games would, IMHO, be a good bundle on the GC. Include UAE of OS4 to run classic Amiga games and use the MAX DRIVE to transer the .adf files to the GC and you could be playing classic Amiga titles through OS4 on the GC.
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it.
I don't think "cheap" had anything to do with it. Piracy? Locked firmware? Politics? That's more like it.
Non-issues with the GC. I can't read GC discs on my PC. I could read the A1's OS4 cd. Piracy would be minimized with a GC port.
Besides, Gamecube is cheap because it is nearing the end of its life and didn't live up to expectations (assuming it hasn't already been taken out of manufacture). When Revolution shipps, it will be powerful, but won't quite fit the tab as a cheap platform, anymore, especialy with the mandatory development licenses attached.
The GC was/is profitable for Nintendo. As the next Gameboy (Evolution) is rumored to be GC compatible, software development for the platform is on-going. Also, revolution is scheduled to arrive in late Q1 of 2006. Sales of GC hardware are on-going. Games like Resident Evil 4 and features like 2 exclusive boss characters in Mortal Kombat:Deception continue to drive hardware sales of the unit as will the release of the next Zelda title this coming Christmas.
I believe that's what x86 Amigan have been saying all along. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had plenty of time and arguments to render their decision, and they chose an expensive, buggy, outdated, expensive PPC platform.
Maybe the problem is that the people in charge don't give a damn? Your Gamecube arguments are similar to x86 arguments. Amiga and Hyperion turned them down, and show little interest in changing their minds, especially now that they are stuck with PPC whether they like it or not.
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
-
:argue:
Next one not knowning the difference between a GUI and an Application will report to my office at 700 hours...
:afro:
-
lou_dias wrote:
The GC is already running Linux.
http://www.gc-linux.org/
The GC Linux can not be considered modern by any means. Just because it has the name Linux, doesn't mean it has all of the features (ie. no X Windows, etc.). There is simply no way to overcome the RAM and local storage limitations on console systems.
@MDMA
See above. Sure console systems have Linux, some have rather good ports (GC is very primitive comparitively). But, you can't overcome the hardware. In the case of the Xbox there are memory and CPU upgrades available that make it more usable, but it's still cripled compared to a modern x86 port.
OS4 will not run on 24Mb of RAM. It's simply not possible.
-
I like the thinking behind this thread, but as a reality it aint gonna happen anytime soon.
Firstly, Nintendo has no interest in supporting a foreign OS that presently accounts for what, <0.1 percent of the OS market? If they did need an OS, Im sure they'd roll their own.
...or just buy the Amiga IP outright, putting an end to all other AmigaOS development. Then you'd get something that felt vuagely like AmigaOS but with Mario as the mouse pointer...
Secondly, Amiga-Inc, et al have no interest in porting to a piece of hardware they receive no revenue from. Even if they were interested, I doubt they'd know how to proceed.
Lastly, the Amiga userbase would throw a fit! (just look at the hostility of this thread) Let alone buy into it. The last thing the dwindling Amiga market needs now is further segmentation.
My advice for people not willing to pay the exorbitant fee for A1/OS4, is to leave the Amiga its fate, and start looking at modern alternatives like, OSX, AROS, Knoppix(Linux) ect.
The truth is, most modern OS's have caught up with, if not far surpassed the AmigaOS experience.
-
adolescent wrote:
OS4 will not run on 24Mb of RAM. It's simply not possible.
How sad that Amiga OS 1.1 ran on 256k even 3.1 only used a couple of hundred kilobytes of memory on my CD32 with Workbench running. Granted the Kickstart 3.1 ROM is 512k. I don't see a problem with an OS4 w/gui running in clocking several megabytes of RAM. Heck, didn't the A4000 come with 2-8 MB of RAM? I find it hard to believe that OS4 can't run in WELL under 24MB. I don't think it's that big a pig. Most of the OS files can reside on the disc (which can store 1.5GB of information and has a low seek time). Only the kernal and gui need to reside in memory. Also, don't forget about the 16MB of RAM that most developers use as a RAM disk that the sound chip has direct access to.
-
Oh my goodness!
http://cube.ign.com/articles/599/599399p1.html
Revolution to use same API as Gamecube...
I would have never guessed that.
Oh wait! Yes I did... Didn't I?
-
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
The Above quote is meaningless...
I think you study PC architecture before you post crap and prove that you are an idiot.
You are so far behind the tech curve you can't see how wrong you are... even busses in the traditional sense have been superceded by point-to-point packet based transport layers... Do the words Hypertransport and PCI-express mean nothing to you?
If I look at the PC sitting next to me, The CPU has three independant busses; a dual channel RAM interface (that means 2 separate busses dedicated to memory access) and a single hypertransport link.
The Hypertransport link connects to the PCIe (PCI-express) tunnel and to the PCI bridge.
On my PCIe bus I have a Graphics card, which I shall come to later, and some integrated system features like SATA, Gigabit-Lan, USB2, Firewire etc...
On the PCI bus, I have some standard southbridge features, IDE, FDC, BIOS, RTC, PS/2 ports, Serial etc... and I have a sound card and a TV card plugged in there too.
Ok back to the Graphics card; This is a separate Processor (aka the GPU) dedicated to graphics generation, it also has its own memory, 128megs on a dedicated bus that has nothing to do with anything else in the computer.
Ok, lets count up those busses! I counted 6, not counting the USB2 (With my digital camera, keyboard, mouse etc...) or the Firewire with my Edirol FA-101 audio module.
Now what were you saying about single busses? oh years that's right the amiga has a single bus...
-
And if you read http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/gamecube.htm , you will see that a GC is designed like an Amiga. A true gaming machine unlike those PC's (PS2/XBOX) posing as game machines.
Hold on, I need to vomit...
.. right. PS2 is like a PC? I write software on the PS2 for a living and nothing is further from the truth. More research, less zeal, buddy.
Jarrod
-
@whoever bloodline was replying to
It's clear you don't understand where current PC hardware is at.
We each have our preferences, personally I prefer (for various reasons) PPC over x86, but I'd never suggest for a second that the current generation PC hardware was fundamentally crap, flawed or inefficient.
Lastly, you seem to refer to PC and x86 as interchanagable terms. This is like saying 680x0 and amiga (or apple) are interchangable. Just as many 680x0 based systems have moved towards PPC, so the PC has moved to a 64-bit clean architecture in the guise of AMD64.
Comparing an AMD64 running in native 64-bit mode to a 32-bit x86 is about as sensible (architecturally speaking) as comparing PPC to 680x0.
-
I know I should stay clear of this, but...
I worked on a lexican analyzer in college back in '91 when I was a computer engineering student at UMass-Amherst. It essential is a dos-like command line interpreter. Wrote it in ADA as well as the 'dos' functions it was designed to respond to. This was for a VAX VMS system. I do have a stong computer programming background and some engineering background on the hardware side too.
Well, I'm genuinly surprised. The trouble is, that was '91,
and you were dealing with application-level stuff, not OS-level stuff. Your little DOS/shell thing works just fine with no real OS underneath.
If you don't want multitasking, memory protection, virtual memory, and the ability to run applications without recompiling them for each hardware platform, then Gamecube is fine.
OS4 is designed to bring the Amiga world out of those dark days, even if it isn't designed all that well.
mdma: The dreamcast ran WindowsCE, NetBSD, and Linux 7 years ago.
Were they stripped down versions? To say a console can run a modern OS implies that the OS retains all its original functionality.
You can run Linux on a cell phone. It just can't do a fraction of what it can do on properly built PC hardware.
I've been on this site long enough to know that when someone says 'PC' they mean a Wintel box.
Things have changed a lot since the "IBM Compatible" days, buddy.
The Mac is a PC too, you know.
Hell, the machine is based on all the same standards, too. :-)
http://www.gc-linux.org
How does the functionality of that OS compare to a "real" Linux? How many lines of code did they have to rewrite to get it to work? Are they using Nintendo's APIs or are they writing their own drivers?
You can get Linux running on anything. You just have to strip it down to a toothpick to do it.
It's also worth pointing out that Linux is a kernel, and full builds of Linux are actually GNU/Linux. There's a lot more to an OS than just the kernel.
The 81MB/second transfer rate of the GC's high speed parrallel port is no joke.
What's the buffer on that? Is it DMA?
Come on now. You don't think that an ATI chip designed for a game console doesn't have optimized drivers? How is using an API for graphics on a game different from using is in another application such as a gui for an OS?
Very.
Does the Flipper support overlays?
I don't believe Apple will be handing out a license to run another OS on there machine. So the Mac-mini is not a legal option.
*Snort*
Getting legal permission from Nintendo is looking easier by the second, eh?
I believe it's these API's that will let Revolution be backwards compatible with GC.
Maybe, but only the usage may be similar. You'll still have to re-compile all your software for the new hardware.
This is all part of the HAL that they had to write for the A1.
A modern HAL makes a lot of assumptions about the underlying hardware, and is built around a lowest common denominator. HALs are easy to port to other PCs. Rewriting the HAL for a console machine that doesn't follow most PC standards is a HELL of a lot of work. You'd also have to write a new BIOS for each machine on which the HAL has to run to do it "properly." If you're not sure why a BIOS has to be written from scratch for each system, think about what "BIOS" stands for.
XBOX is not PPC based so it would be a major rewrite of OS4 and as I've stated before is off-topic.
Only if Hyperion didn't do it properly (and likely, they didn't).
I think you're a little confused over the fact that Gecko != PPC. The core is similar, but not the same. If you have to completely recompile everything compared to AmigaOne, then why should the CPU architecture matter at all? You're definately not going to be able to run software compiled for AmigaOne or AmigaPPC on Gamecube directly, and vice-verca.
Non-PPC machines are most certainly not off topic. You just don't want to expand your options beyond Nintendo.
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL
My key point is that there is more to a hardware platform than just the CPU. A modern OS can't run with the capabilites you'd expect from a modern OS (or even OS4), running on console hardware.
The heart of the Amiga is a games machine.
Oh. Well, you obviously don't want a modern OS with all the things that made the Amiga special, like multitasking and multimedia. You want a game machine.
If all you want is games, then porting OS4 (with all the "OS" parts ripped out) is certainly feasable.
But... why bother with an OS at all?
The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture.
Name it. Then tell me the difference between PCI and ISA (for starters). What you know about IRQs and DMA is a thing of the past on the PC (excuse me, I mean IBM Compatible).
What's really damned ironic is that most consoles are really single bus machines, here. A unified memory architecture means all the chips share the same memory and must work in perfect syncronization. PC's are asyncronous machines tied together with multiple busses. There's many good reasons for that, but I don't think you care, seeing how you keep saying, over and over, that the PC has a single bus, when it certainly does not.
Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things.
I don't suppose "GPU" means anything to you? Oh, look, my Radeon has its own 256MB block of memory.
adolescent: OS4 will not run on 24Mb of RAM. It's simply not possible.
That's arguable.
Revolution to use same API as Gamecube...
That's "compatible"... not "same." You still have to recompile everything.
-
bloodline wrote:
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
The Above quote is meaningless...
I think you study PC architecture before you post crap and prove that you are an idiot.
You are so far behind the tech curve you can't see how wrong you are... even busses in the traditional sense have been superceded by point-to-point packet based transport layers... Do the words Hypertransport and PCI-express mean nothing to you?
If I look at the PC sitting next to me, The CPU has three independant busses; a dual channel RAM interface (that means 2 separate busses dedicated to memory access) and a single hypertransport link.
The Hypertransport link connects to the PCIe (PCI-express) tunnel and to the PCI bridge.
On my PCIe bus I have a Graphics card, which I shall come to later, and some integrated system features like SATA, Gigabit-Lan, USB2, Firewire etc...
On the PCI bus, I have some standard southbridge features, IDE, FDC, BIOS, RTC, PS/2 ports, Serial etc... and I have a sound card and a TV card plugged in there too.
Ok back to the Graphics card; This is a separate Processor (aka the GPU) dedicated to graphics generation, it also has its own memory, 128megs on a dedicated bus that has nothing to do with anything else in the computer.
Ok, lets count up those busses! I counted 6, not counting the USB2 (With my digital camera, keyboard, mouse etc...) or the Firewire with my Edirol FA-101 audio module.
Now what were you saying about single busses? oh years that's right the amiga has a single bus...[/quote]
And you are a bigger idiot because the A1 has none of those features except the fact that a video card has it's own ram but that only gets filled through the main system bus so when that is happening, the CPU is probably already processed all it can in it's cache and is just waiting...
You are also getting confused with what a bus is...all the info that you receive from USB 2.0 etc goes through the system bus to be stored in RAM or HD.
-
jarrody2k wrote:
And if you read http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/gamecube.htm , you will see that a GC is designed like an Amiga. A true gaming machine unlike those PC's (PS2/XBOX) posing as game machines.
Hold on, I need to vomit...
.. right. PS2 is like a PC? I write software on the PS2 for a living and nothing is further from the truth. More research, less zeal, buddy.
Jarrod
Sony calls it "Playstation 2 COMPUTER Entertainment System". It has an archetecture just like a PC bus uses a different processor. Just like the A1 uses a PPC and an 'IBM PC-compatible' computer uses in intel chip.
Now go call Sony a liar and make them stop calling it a 'computer entertainment system'.
-
lou_dias wrote:
jarrody2k wrote:
And if you read http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/gamecube.htm , you will see that a GC is designed like an Amiga. A true gaming machine unlike those PC's (PS2/XBOX) posing as game machines.
Hold on, I need to vomit...
.. right. PS2 is like a PC? I write software on the PS2 for a living and nothing is further from the truth. More research, less zeal, buddy.
Jarrod
Sony calls it "Playstation 2 COMPUTER Entertainment System". It has an archetecture just like a PC bus uses a different processor. Just like the A1 uses a PPC and an 'IBM PC-compatible' computer uses in intel chip.
Now go call Sony a liar and make them stop calling it a 'computer entertainment system'.
I'll ignore your pointless response to my post... and focus on the fact that the PS2 is nothing like a PC in anyway...
Look here: Arstechnica (http://arstechnica.com/index.ars)
-
Karlos wrote:
@whoever bloodline was replying to
It's clear you don't understand where current PC hardware is at.
We each have our preferences, personally I prefer (for various reasons) PPC over x86, but I'd never suggest for a second that the current generation PC hardware was fundamentally crap, flawed or inefficient.
Lastly, you seem to refer to PC and x86 as interchanagable terms. This is like saying 680x0 and amiga (or apple) are interchangable. Just as many 680x0 based systems have moved towards PPC, so the PC has moved to a 64-bit clean architecture in the guise of AMD64.
Comparing an AMD64 running in native 64-bit mode to a 32-bit x86 is about as sensible (architecturally speaking) as comparing PPC to 680x0.
Please read the whole thread in future responses. On this site, people refer to there Amigas as 'my Amiga' not 'my PC' so when I say PC, I mean wintel running Windows. I also didn't start this thread to debate what is the best architecture for a future Amiga. I started it draw support for a licensed version of OS4 on the GC as a quick and low cost alternative to the overpriced and outdated A1. I don't care that there are better (and more expensive) alternatives, nor do they need to be discussed in this thread. As I'm sure they have already been discussed in other threads.
-
Waccoon wrote:
Well, I'm genuinly surprised. The trouble is, that was '91,
and you were dealing with application-level stuff, not OS-level stuff. Your little DOS/shell thing works just fine with no real OS underneath.
If you don't want multitasking, memory protection, virtual memory, and the ability to run applications without recompiling them for each hardware platform, then Gamecube is fine.
OS4 is designed to bring the Amiga world out of those dark days, even if it isn't designed all that well.
It's the kernel that give you multitasking, why would that change with a GC port? Why does most software written for an A500 run on an A1200 without a recompile? OS4 software written for OS4 should be able to run on a GC running OS4 or an A1.
mdma: The dreamcast ran WindowsCE, NetBSD, and Linux 7 years ago.
Were they stripped down versions? To say a console can run a modern OS implies that the OS retains all its original functionality.
You can look up the details of this in Microsoft's own MSDN library: http://search.microsoft.com/search/results.aspx?qu=dreamcast&View=msdn&st=b&c=0&s=1&swc=0
I've been on this site long enough to know that when someone says 'PC' they mean a Wintel box.
Things have changed a lot since the "IBM Compatible" days, buddy.
The Mac is a PC too, you know.
Hell, the machine is based on all the same standards, too. :-)
yes but I'm sure you refer to it as 'your MAC' not 'your PC' on this forum...
http://www.gc-linux.org
How does the functionality of that OS compare to a "real" Linux? How many lines of code did they have to rewrite to get it to work? Are they using Nintendo's APIs or are they writing their own drivers?
You can get Linux running on anything. You just have to strip it down to a toothpick to do it.
It's also worth pointing out that Linux is a kernel, and full builds of Linux are actually GNU/Linux. There's a lot more to an OS than just the kernel.
These are all good questions and you can direct that to that website. The amazing thing is that it was all done through reverse-engineering. Never the less a point has been proven. The GC can be a 'PC'.
The 81MB/second transfer rate of the GC's high speed parrallel port is no joke.
What's the buffer on that? Is it DMA?
It's called a high-speed parrallel port which leads me to believe that it functions like.........a parrallel port. Why do you want the specific details? Are you going to code something on the GC? Either way, I'm sure the details can be found on the Linux-on-GC site and definitely in an official Gamcube developer's kit.
Come on now. You don't think that an ATI chip designed for a game console doesn't have optimized drivers? How is using an API for graphics on a game different from using is in another application such as a gui for an OS?
Very.
Does the Flipper support overlays?
LOL, 'very' indeed... You are a comedian now? Overlays?! Wow, you would think overlays are some secret feature of the OCS/ECS/AGA and can never be done again by any other GPU... Again, for details get a GC developer's kit.
I don't believe Apple will be handing out a license to run another OS on there machine. So the Mac-mini is not a legal option.
*Snort*
Getting legal permission from Nintendo is looking easier by the second, eh?
It is. I've been making that point. Nintendo has publicly stated that they are looking to expand into new markets. They are the only console that will and has published 'non-game' games.
I believe it's these API's that will let Revolution be backwards compatible with GC.
Maybe, but only the usage may be similar. You'll still have to re-compile all your software for the new hardware.
I answered this at the beginning. Again...why don't I have to recompile A500 software to run it on an A1200. You must have forgotten that I've owned Amigas and would know this.
I'll go out on a limb here and make another prediction for the GC/Revolution backwards compatibility thing:
I'll bet there will be atleast 1 software title that will run on either system. BUT! Yes, big 'BUT', it will know if it's running on the GC or Revolution and will run in a higher resolution mode AND with better texturing as well, taking full advantage of the extra processing power of Revolution vs. GC! Only time will prove me right or wrong.
This is all part of the HAL that they had to write for the A1.
A modern HAL makes a lot of assumptions about the underlying hardware, and is built around a lowest common denominator. HALs are easy to port to other PCs. Rewriting the HAL for a console machine that doesn't follow most PC standards is a HELL of a lot of work. You'd also have to write a new BIOS for each machine on which the HAL has to run to do it "properly." If you're not sure why a BIOS has to be written from scratch for each system, think about what "BIOS" stands for.
In a licensed product, Hyperion would have this information available to them. It didn't seem to be much effort for them to write the A1 bios and even threw in an x86 emulator to boot. Again, all this stuff is details that would be in the developer's kit. We know the issues, they are no different than the issues they've had with the A1 except the hardware is proven and known, no mystery bugs like the VIA IDE DMA bug that surprised them and Eyetech. So in effect I see an easier time of it.
I think you're a little confused over the fact that Gecko != PPC. The core is similar, but not the same. If you have to completely recompile everything compared to AmigaOne, then why should the CPU architecture matter at all? You're definately not going to be able to run software compiled for AmigaOne or AmigaPPC on Gamecube directly, and vice-verca.
Non-PPC machines are most certainly not off topic. You just don't want to expand your options beyond Nintendo.
What rubbish. I swear, with every post it seems your IQ goes down. You are going to tell me the a PPC cpu is not a PPC cpu. Gekko is a PPC cpu. This one has a faster bus speed and some Altivec instructions thrown in. It's a better/newer core than the Apple G4 (oh wait, according to your logic the Apple G4 must not be a PPC cpu) and has some Altivec capabilities to boot (which is the only reason to want a G4 over a G3 at the same clock speed)
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL
My key point is that there is more to a hardware platform than just the CPU. A modern OS can't run with the capabilites you'd expect from a modern OS (or even OS4), running on console hardware.
That's your opinion. And you'll stick to it to your death I am certain.
The heart of the Amiga is a games machine.
Oh. Well, you obviously don't want a modern OS with all the things that made the Amiga special, like multitasking and multimedia. You want a game machine.
If all you want is games, then porting OS4 (with all the "OS" parts ripped out) is certainly feasable.
But... why bother with an OS at all?
A game machine's hardware multitasks better by design. 'Why bother with an OS at all?' Good question. I supposed it's about simplicity. If I could own one system (vs. PC, game machine and stereo system, etc...) that could do it all, it would save me desk space and money on investing in multiple platforms. I'm also not happy with Windows. And I still have a fondness of Amigas. I'd like to see the platform succeed. Yes, it's wishful thinking but hey, we can dream, right. Remember, Amiga is a software company now. Look at Amiga-Anywhere... Anyway, if the OS4 partners could profit from a console port and broaden there appeal at the same time, why not consider the option?
What's really damned ironic is that most consoles are really single bus machines, here. A unified memory architecture means all the chips share the same memory and must work in perfect syncronization. PC's are asyncronous machines tied together with multiple busses. There's many good reasons for that, but I don't think you care, seeing how you keep saying, over and over, that the PC has a single bus, when it certainly does not.
Well, the GC is cetainly not a single-bus machine. That's one of it's pluses. There are pluses and minuses to syncronizized operation as well as asyncronous. We need not discuss them. Arguments there go both ways.
Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things.
I don't suppose "GPU" means anything to you? Oh, look, my Radeon has its own 256MB block of memory.
Yes, I know. Today's GPU are cpus in there own regard. A real Amiga could access fast-RAM while it's blitter was accessing 'chip' RAM. That's where the Amiga shined in it's heyday. That's why it was the first multitasking computer...down to the hardware.
Revolution to use same API as Gamecube...
That's "compatible"... not "same." You still have to recompile everything.
I repeat - not so.
-
bloodline wrote:
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
The Above quote is meaningless...
I think you study PC architecture before you post crap and prove that you are an idiot.
You are so far behind the tech curve you can't see how wrong you are... even busses in the traditional sense have been superceded by point-to-point packet based transport layers... Do the words Hypertransport and PCI-express mean nothing to you?
If I look at the PC sitting next to me, The CPU has three independant busses; a dual channel RAM interface (that means 2 separate busses dedicated to memory access) and a single hypertransport link.
The Hypertransport link connects to the PCIe (PCI-express) tunnel and to the PCI bridge.
On my PCIe bus I have a Graphics card, which I shall come to later, and some integrated system features like SATA, Gigabit-Lan, USB2, Firewire etc...
On the PCI bus, I have some standard southbridge features, IDE, FDC, BIOS, RTC, PS/2 ports, Serial etc... and I have a sound card and a TV card plugged in there too.
Ok back to the Graphics card; This is a separate Processor (aka the GPU) dedicated to graphics generation, it also has its own memory, 128megs on a dedicated bus that has nothing to do with anything else in the computer.
Ok, lets count up those busses! I counted 6, not counting the USB2 (With my digital camera, keyboard, mouse etc...) or the Firewire with my Edirol FA-101 audio module.
Now what were you saying about single busses? oh years that's right the amiga has a single bus...
Yes yes, you can ramble on about the wonders of the modern PC but in the end the A1 will not have Hypertransport, PCI Express, USB 2.0 (1.1 last time I checked) and some other things out of the box or ever. I am about a low cost alternative to the A1 PPC platform. Read the entire thread next time before you butt in with off-topic info and watch who you call an idiot as well. It's one thing to state facts or opinions. Name calling is just childish.
-
From GamesIndustry.Biz:
Nintendo president Satoru Iwata has revealed more details of the next-gen Revolution console, focusing on the company's plans to make online gaming more accessible and overhaul the way controllers are designed.
Speaking to Japanese weekly Nikkei Business in an interview partially translated by US website GameSpot, Iwata-san confirmed that Revolution will feature wireless LAN capability and said he hoped it would make playing games online easier for consumers.
"The next-generation console will follow along the same line as the DS [for wireless LAN]," he said. "The ideal is for users to be able to connect to the Internet without having to think about it."
Iwata-san touched on online play in his recent speech at the Game Developers' Conference, where he confirmed that the Revolution would feature wi-fi technology as a standard feature.
He went on to reveal that the Revolution had received more positive response from developers than expected, partially due to Nintendo's intention to do everything possible to keep development costs low. As part of these plans, the Revolution will use the GameCube's software libraries and application program interfaces.
Itawa-san did not discuss recent rumours of a DS-style touch screen controller, but did say that controllers for current consoles "may satisfy the hardcore gamers, but they've become too difficult for more casual gamers."
"For the next-generation console, we plan to introduce a friendly user interface so that, for example, a mother who's watching her child playing a game might say, 'Oh, I'd like to try that too,'" he said.
"However, user interfaces are devices that can easily be imitated by other companies, so I can't reveal any details right now."
The full unveiling of the Nintendo Revolution is expected to take place at this year's E3.
-
And you are a bigger idiot because the A1 has none of those features except the fact that a video card has it's own ram but that only gets filled through the main system bus so when that is happening, the CPU is probably already processed all it can in it's cache and is just waiting...
The "main" system bus is the memory controller. It's a hell of a lot faster than PCI/AGP/PCIX, and does allow more than one chip to access main memory at a time (limited only by the speed of the memory). The whole reason why this controller exists is to make sure that each sub-bus (including the CPU itself) gets a fair share of the memory.
You make it sound like the CPU has to spend 90% of its time at idle waiting for something to do.
It's the kernel that give you multitasking, why would that change with a GC port?
Because the hardware looks different to the kernel. If Nintendo's APIs aren't designed to run in user space, you can't really use them to write an OS better than OS3.
Also note that there's many kinds of multitasking. Which one you can use depends on your kernel design and drivers. Again, Nintendo's APIs may be more harm than help.
Why does most software written for an A500 run on an A1200 without a recompile?
Because AGA is almsost fully binary compatible with OCS. The AAA chipset was supposed to be a departure from OCS compatibility, but we'll never know by how much.
These are all good questions and you can direct that to that website. The amazing thing is that it was all done through reverse-engineering. Never the less a point has been proven. The GC can be a 'PC'.
No, the point proven is that you can force Linux to run on GC, albiet in a heavily stripped form. How stripped it has to be is the real question that you keep dismissing.
Why do you want the specific details? Are you going to code something on the GC? Either way, I'm sure the details can be found on the Linux-on-GC site and definitely in an official Gamcube developer's kit.
More questions you don't want to answer.
You never did give me the name of the "single" bus in the PC (sorry, I mean, "Wintel").
Wow, you would think overlays are some secret feature of the OCS/ECS/AGA and can never be done again by any other GPU...
I'm not asking you if overlays are a rare feature. I'm asking if you're aware that Flipper != Radeon.
Oh yeah, and overlays are not a feature of OCS/ECS/AGA. The Amiga used playfields, instead.
It didn't seem to be much effort for them [Hyperion] to write the A1 bios and even threw in an x86 emulator to boot.
You are aware that UBoot is an open-source project and was not written by Hyperion, right?
I swear, with every post it seems your IQ goes down.
Thank you.
Gekko is a PPC cpu.
No, it's based on a PPC core.
There are pluses and minuses to syncronizized operation as well as asyncronous. We need not discuss them.
Why not? One of the biggest tasks of an OS is to make sure than multiple processes don't stomp all over each other. Is this also off topic in a thread about porting an OS?
I am about a low cost alternative to the A1 PPC platform.
You get what you pay for.
He went on to reveal that the Revolution had received more positive response from developers than expected, partially due to Nintendo's intention to do everything possible to keep development costs low. As part of these plans, the Revolution will use the GameCube's software libraries and application program interfaces.
So? A kernel needs to run below libraries and APIs for them to work with each other corerctly. Otherwise, the programmer has to do everything manually, and you are programming for Nintendo's APIs, not the OS.
An OS is supposed to make things portable and make a programmer's life easier, you know.
-
LOL, 'very' indeed... You are a comedian now? Overlays?! Wow, you would think overlays are some secret feature of the OCS/ECS/AGA and can never be done again by any other GPU... Again, for details get a GC developer's kit.
The Amiga never had Overlay support.
Well, the GC is cetainly not a single-bus machine. That's one of it's pluses. There are pluses and minuses to syncronizized operation as well as asyncronous. We need not discuss them. Arguments there go both ways.
what are you trying to say here, because I am unable to parse it.
As Waccoon correctly pointed out, a Games console will probably use a simple unified memory architeture for simplicity and cost reasons. Such an architecture is useless for a General purpose (read desktop) machine, but perfectly acceptable for a Games machine.
The amiga (with FastRam) used a unified memory architecture... And you'll notice that an Amiga without fast ram is generally only good for games...
I answered this at the beginning. Again...why don't I have to recompile A500 software to run it on an A1200. You must have forgotten that I've owned Amigas and would know this.
The AGA chipset supported all the OCS/ECS chipset registers, that meant that any software which poked values directly into the chipset would still work fine regarless of the chipset available... Commodore tried to discourage such practice as it halted the ability to introduce advanced new features into the chipset in a clean way.
yes but I'm sure you refer to it as 'your MAC' not 'your PC' on this forum...
You're not making sense again...
What rubbish. I swear, with every post it seems your IQ goes down. You are going to tell me the a PPC cpu is not a PPC cpu. Gekko is a PPC cpu. This one has a faster bus speed and some Altivec instructions thrown in. It's a better/newer core than the Apple G4 (oh wait, according to your logic the Apple G4 must not be a PPC cpu) and has some Altivec capabilities to boot (which is the only reason to want a G4 over a G3 at the same clock speed)
You critisize me for insulting you, which I accept was wrong, and now you do the same to Waccoon...
Gekko may well use a PPC core, but it is no more a PPC than a Mac is an Amiga (they share a CPU design, but are still incompatible).
-
What rubbish. I swear, with every post it seems your IQ goes down. You are going to tell me the a PPC cpu is not a PPC cpu. Gekko is a PPC cpu. This one has a faster bus speed and some Altivec instructions thrown in. It's a better/newer core than the Apple G4 (oh wait, according to your logic the Apple G4 must not be a PPC cpu) and has some Altivec capabilities to boot (which is the only reason to want a G4 over a G3 at the same clock speed)
A Gecko is a PPC, in the same way a Coldfire is a 68000.
or
A Gecko is not a PPC, in the same way a Coldfire is not a 68000.
Take your pick. :-D
-
lou_dias wrote:
Name calling is just childish.
ROFL :-D
-
Waccoon wrote:
You make it sound like the CPU has to spend 90% of its time at idle waiting for something to do.
In applications that constantly wait for user interaction such as dtp software and wordprocessors, that is what's happening...
It's the kernel that give you multitasking, why would that change with a GC port?
Because the hardware looks different to the kernel.
Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) - remember? OS4 has one.
Why does most software written for an A500 run on an A1200 without a recompile?
Because AGA is almsost fully binary compatible with OCS. The AAA chipset was supposed to be a departure from OCS compatibility, but we'll never know by how much.
Why can't you just admit it's the games that use OS system libraries that are the compatible ones. What you are taking about only makes those libraries easier to recode for the better hardware.
These are all good questions and you can direct that to that website. The amazing thing is that it was all done through reverse-engineering. Never the less a point has been proven. The GC can be a 'PC'.
No, the point proven is that you can force Linux to run on GC, albiet in a heavily stripped form. How stripped it has to be is the real question that you keep dismissing.
Look I don't study Linux. I also don't believe it's a stripped down version just because Linux itself in not big. It's when you want to run Apache, PHP, MySQL and a whole bunch of other stuff one one machine that memory requirements go up. 40MB is more than enought to run a gui and browser and a word processor...Linux is a memory whore like Windows.
More questions you don't want to answer.
You never did give me the name of the "single" bus in the PC (sorry, I mean, "Wintel").
Yo ask me questions like I am claiming to be doing the port myself. I never said I wanted to,infact I've stated that I can't. I've stated that I believe Hyperion should. So I don't know why you want to keep asking me questions about hardware I have no interest in. You just seem bent to prove me wrong on any ridiculous point.
Wow, you would think overlays are some secret feature of the OCS/ECS/AGA and can never be done again by any other GPU...
I'm not asking you if overlays are a rare feature. I'm asking if you're aware that Flipper != Radeon.
Oh yeah, and overlays are not a feature of OCS/ECS/AGA. The Amiga used playfields, instead.
Where did that come from? You are asking me one question but mean another. I think you are going insane now. I know Flipper is not Radeon. Flipper was design by AtrX before ATI bought them. Amiga has a layers library but support video background with Amiga graphics overlay...what's it called - genlock or something...
It didn't seem to be much effort for them [Hyperion] to write the A1 bios and even threw in an x86 emulator to boot.
You are aware that UBoot is an open-source project and was not written by Hyperion, right?
and that's great, it's obviously not a problem for them and they have experience doing it already.
Gekko is a PPC cpu.
No, it's based on a PPC core.
Are you on drugs?
There are pluses and minuses to syncronizized operation as well as asyncronous. We need not discuss them.
Why not? One of the biggest tasks of an OS is to make sure than multiple processes don't stomp all over each other. Is this also off topic in a thread about porting an OS?
The implimentation is not my issue but Hyperion's. I'm saying "Hey, wouldn't it be great if OS4 was ported to the Gamecube." Why can't you understand that?
I am about a low cost alternative to the A1 PPC platform.
You get what you pay for.
Yes and I paid for a gamecube and love it.
He went on to reveal that the Revolution had received more positive response from developers than expected, partially due to Nintendo's intention to do everything possible to keep development costs low. As part of these plans, the Revolution will use the GameCube's software libraries and application program interfaces.
So? A kernel needs to run below libraries and APIs for them to work with each other corerctly. Otherwise, the programmer has to do everything manually, and you are programming for Nintendo's APIs, not the OS.
An OS is supposed to make things portable and make a programmer's life easier, you know.
This all depends on how much of the Nintendo supplied API's an OS4 port could reuse. If OS4's graphics.library just called the cube's API then it should still work fine on Revolution just like I've mentioned before with A500->A1200 os compliant software. Yes that's only one example and others may fail but work that could have been ongoing in getting this port done could have continued on Revolution without a need to rewrite alot of what had been done already.
Also, let's go back to the HAL here. Hyperion has stated before that they designed the OS so that rewriting the HAL for another hardware platform (like a Pegasus) is all that would be required for getting it to run on something other than the A1. However, they've never received a Pegasus board (etc...) and aren't working on it. I'm sure, as an OS4 partner, Eyetech would have something to say about what hardware platform gets a port too. So you really don't need to argue with me about technical details.
Instead of arguing technical details and just having people say "Hey, I'd like to see this happen!" then maybe it would.
I'm a consumer looking for a product to meet my needs. That's all. You nor I are going to write one line of code to get OS4 running on ANY platform.
-
bloodline wrote:
LOL, 'very' indeed... You are a comedian now? Overlays?! Wow, you would think overlays are some secret feature of the OCS/ECS/AGA and can never be done again by any other GPU... Again, for details get a GC developer's kit.
The Amiga never had Overlay support.
Right, so you could never throw Amiga graphics over live video...mmmm k.
As Waccoon correctly pointed out, a Games console will probably use a simple unified memory architeture for simplicity and cost reasons. Such an architecture is useless for a General purpose (read desktop) machine, but perfectly acceptable for a Games machine.
And if you knew anything about the GC, you would know it has 2 completely different and separate memory banks.
The AGA chipset supported all the OCS/ECS chipset registers, that meant that any software which poked values directly into the chipset would still work fine regarless of the chipset available... Commodore tried to discourage such practice as it halted the ability to introduce advanced new features into the chipset in a clean way.
Yes, by luck, some non-OS compliant games ran fine, most didn't. The ones that were OS-compliant ran just fine as should any OS4 software run fine on either the A1 or GC if the GC was running OS4 as well...which is what we are talking about here. Barring any software that exceeds the physical limitations of the machine (ie requiring more memory than the GC has to offer).
You critisize me for insulting you, which I accept was wrong, and now you do the same to Waccoon...
I didn't name call. I'm simply pointing out that his posts are dropping in quality. :P
Gekko may well use a PPC core, but it is no more a PPC than a Mac is an Amiga (they share a CPU design, but are still incompatible).
So what you are saying is that OS4 which is targetted at the G3FX chip would have to be completely re-written to run on a G4 equipped A1? Does that make sense to you? Ofcourse not. Just like 68000 assembly can be run on a 68060 (yes I know some instructions are missing). Now if you wanted a graphics library to take advantage of the Altivec instruction in the G4 or Gamecube Gekko, then you could rewrite that library to do so.
Remember, all I'm asking for is a licensed port of OS4 to a cheaper (and in some ways more modern) hardware platform. In my case I have a preference for the Gamecube and forth-coming Nintendo Revolution. I don't want to code it myself, but (especially after seeing the latest video of OS4 running on an A1) I am willing to pay for it (just not for an A1).
-
Gekko is a PPC just like a 1997 Pontiac Firebird is like a 1998 Firebird. It's just better than the FX and has some Altivec ala G4 and a faster fsb.
-
In applications that constantly wait for user interaction such as dtp software and wordprocessors, that is what's happening...
Actually, CPUs have dedicated instructions to handle idle processes to tell the memory controller that they don't need data.
Do you know what the "idle" process in a modern kernel does?
Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) - remember? OS4 has one.
The HAL relies heavily on a BIOS and lots of kernel-mode drivers. The Gamecube doesn't have them, remember?
Why can't you just admit it's the games that use OS system libraries that are the compatible ones.
In the same way that ancient 3D games were hard-coded for the Glide library? How many of them work without an emulator or wrapper, like GlideOS?
Look I don't study Linux.
Which, of course, makes you an expert on gc-Linux, and thus the "proof" that Gamecube is really a PC.
I also don't believe it's a stripped down version just because Linux itself in not big. It's when you want to run Apache, PHP, MySQL and a whole bunch of other stuff one one machine that memory requirements go up. 40MB is more than enought to run a gui and browser and a word processor...Linux is a memory whore like Windows.
The Linux kernel can be forced to use 4MB of memory if required. I hope you're aware that the reason why OSes use so much memory is because of performance optimizers like filesystem caching. The size of the kernel itself has nothing to do with features or compatibility. Some kernels can be written in 35K of flat memory, but that doesn't mean they do much.
Compare an OS for a cell phone to BSD UNIX. Notice any differences?
So I don't know why you want to keep asking me questions about hardware I have no interest in. You just seem bent to prove me wrong on any ridiculous point.
Because you are an idiot who is spreading false information. Your marketting points may still be valid no matter what other people say, but at some point you'll have to conceed that nobody is agreeing with you on the technical front.
and that's great, it's obviously not a problem for them and they have experience doing it already.
You still lied.
Are you on drugs?
Aspirin. I need it for threads like this.
Actually, that's a lie. I enjoy it. :-)
The implimentation is not my issue but Hyperion's. I'm saying "Hey, wouldn't it be great if OS4 was ported to the Gamecube." Why can't you understand that?
Yes, it would be. But it can't, unless they reprogram OS4 to retrograde it into OS3 again.
If you wanted OS3 on Gamecube, I wouldn't complain. That's definately possible.
Yes and I paid for a gamecube and love it.
Why don't you give gc-Linux a spin, then?
Then look at the source code.
If OS4's graphics.library just called the cube's API then it should still work fine on Revolution just like I've mentioned before with A500->A1200 os compliant software.
Ah, yes, it's all so simple on paper, isn't it?
Also, let's go back to the HAL here. Hyperion has stated before that they designed the OS so that rewriting the HAL for another hardware platform (like a Pegasus) is all that would be required for getting it to run on something other than the A1.
So long as it follows PC standards. Throw a proprietary bus into the works and your HAL has to be rewritten from scratch for each platform.
You're also under the false pretense that all hardware abstraction is done with the HAL.
So you really don't need to argue with me about technical details.
Why? Isn't that the primary fault with your idea?
Right, so you could never throw Amiga graphics over live video...mmmm k.
Sure you can. You just need extra hardware to do it. :-)
Gee wizz, the Gamecube has support for bongoes, too!
And if you knew anything about the GC, you would know it has 2 completely different and separate memory banks.
The memory is clocked at different speeds but is mapped continously. They work like "chip" and "fast" RAM on the Amiga, except the speed differential is caused by the memory clocking, not which chip can access it.
Quite advanced, but technically, this is still a unified memory architecture.
Yes, by luck, some non-OS compliant games ran fine, most didn't.
When talking about hardware compatibility, luck has nothing to do with it. :-)
So what you are saying is that OS4 which is targetted at the G3FX chip would have to be completely re-written to run on a G4 equipped A1?
Effectively, yes, because the total hardware is different, not just the CPU, and even if the system architecture is the same, the two cores are not binary compatible, which is why you'd have to recompile all your apps, too.
Recompiling apps for each hardware platform isn't a viable option. Linux people deal with it, but that's another of the million reason why Linux can't gain any desktop market share.
Ofcourse not. Just like 68000 assembly can be run on a 68060 (yes I know some instructions are missing). Now if you wanted a graphics library to take advantage of the Altivec instruction in the G4 or Gamecube Gekko, then you could rewrite that library to do so.
What about stuff other than Altivec? Altivec is a set of accelerators, not mandatory instructions, so it's easy to write libraries for that, just like you can for MMX.
Writing libraries to deal with different registers and alignments... er, that's not so easy. You end up having to use an emulator or virtual machine (a euphemism for "really fast emulator").
Remember, all I'm asking for is a licensed port of OS4 to a cheaper (and in some ways more modern) hardware platform.
It's modern only by gaming standards. It's a purpose-built machine.
Revolution could be different architecutally, but it's still purpose built for gaming. So is XBox 360 and PS3, but those are off-topic, of course.
Gekko is a PPC just like a 1997 Pontiac Firebird is like a 1998 Firebird.
Well... well... a 1949 Volkswagen Beetle and a 2006 Honda Accord both used the same gas and oil! So there!
Hey, do you think you can branch this topic some more, and maybe bump it a few more times every day by posting more than one response consecutively?
-
>> The Amiga never had Overlay support.
>Right, so you could never throw Amiga graphics over live
>video...mmmm k.
That's not what overlay is. You may be thinking of genlock, which is something entirely different.
> Gekko is a PPC just like a 1997 Pontiac Firebird is like a
>1998 Firebird. It's just better than the FX and has some
>Altivec ala G4 and a faster fsb.
What exactly do you mean by "has some Altivec" up there? If it doesn't have full altivec, then it's not really the same thing is it?
It may be fairer to compare Gekko to G4 like Camaro comares to Firebird. They are both made by GM, both use F-frames to hold the car together, were largely built in the same factory, and have some other things in common, but are also quite different at the same time. I also like the 680x0 to Coldfire comparison someone else mentioned as well, where someone went to great lengths around here to explain that some instruction opcodes in Coldfire give quite different results as the same opcode in 68K gives, which becomes problematic.
-
@ lou
I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented. Also, I think I know what you are trying to say. If OS4 "could" get ported over to piece of hardware like the GC then we would have a "cheap" alternative to the A1 motherboard. (Personally I think AROS ported to the GC would make more sense anyway)
I have no doubt that you have some knowledge about this stuff too.
But...
If I have learned anything by being a member of Amiga.org it is that members like Bloodline, Wacoon, Billt and a plethora of others really, really know what they are talking about as far as the technical underlayings of computers and there OS's go.
I think I would have asked more about the feasability of a project like OS4 (or AROS) on the GC and taken advantage of the vast knowledge of the members of Amiga.org who know such things rather than get in a heated argument about it.
That being said, I still think Amiga.org needs the dreamers like you to spout off ideas and maybe we could stumble on to something that is eventually worth doing because I think the survival of the Amiga as we know and love is going to come from the community and not the companies in charge.
Anyway, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say.
Thanks (in advance) for listening with an open mind.
Dan
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
@ lou
I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented. Also, I think I know what you are trying to say. If OS4 "could" get ported over to piece of hardware like the GC then we would have a "cheap" alternative to the A1 motherboard. (Personally I think AROS ported to the GC would make more sense anyway)
I have no doubt that you have some knowledge about this stuff too.
But...
If I have learned anything by being a member of Amiga.org it is that members like Bloodline, Wacoon, Billt and a plethora of others really, really know what they are talking about as far as the technical underlayings of computers and there OS's go.
I think I would have asked more about the feasability of a project like OS4 (or AROS) on the GC and taken advantage of the vast knowledge of the members of Amiga.org who know such things rather than get in a heated argument about it.
That being said, I still think Amiga.org needs the dreamers like you to spout off ideas and maybe we could stumble on to something that is eventually worth doing because I think the survival of the Amiga as we know and love is going to come from the community and not the companies in charge.
Anyway, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say.
Thanks (in advance) for listening with an open mind.
Dan
Finally someone who actually understands...
-
Finally someone who actually understands...
:-) Yea, but my dream would be for some one with the money, business sense and extreme love from the Amiga to come along and
1) Buy the Amiga IP.
2) Build a small,cheap but efficient G3 or G4 based motherboard (hey I love the processor).
3) get rid of the "dongle" aspect of OS4.
4) Market the hell out of it.
-
Waccoon wrote:
Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) - remember? OS4 has one.
The HAL relies heavily on a BIOS and lots of kernel-mode drivers. The Gamecube doesn't have them, remember?
Other than the setup screen to set the time and play with the memory cards, it just looks to boot from disc. I believe it's all of 32k...
Look I don't study Linux.
Which, of course, makes you an expert on gc-Linux, and thus the "proof" that Gamecube is really a PC.
another silly comment...
]I also don't believe it's a stripped down version just because Linux itself in not big. It's when you want to run Apache, PHP, MySQL and a whole bunch of other stuff one one machine that memory requirements go up. 40MB is more than enought to run a gui and browser and a word processor...Linux is a memory whore like Windows.
The Linux kernel can be forced to use 4MB of memory if required. I hope you're aware that the reason why OSes use so much memory is because of performance optimizers like filesystem caching. The size of the kernel itself has nothing to do with features or compatibility. Some kernels can be written in 35K of flat memory, but that doesn't mean they do much.
Compare an OS for a cell phone to BSD UNIX. Notice any differences?
I will reiterate that 40MB is more than enough to run the OS4 kernal and some apps. I believe Hyperion has commented on the kernal size on this site quite some time ago incase someone wants to look it up.
So I don't know why you want to keep asking me questions about hardware I have no interest in. You just seem bent to prove me wrong on any ridiculous point.
Because you are an idiot who is spreading false information. Your marketting points may still be valid no matter what other people say, but at some point you'll have to conceed that nobody is agreeing with you on the technical front.
If you concede my marketing points are valid, why must you knit-pick me to death on hardware comments I've made? You are not the official OS4 'porter'...oh yes, you argue for fun, I forgot.
You still lied.
about what?
Are you on drugs?
Aspirin. I need it for threads like this.
Actually, that's a lie. I enjoy it. :-)[/quote]
yes I see that...
The implimentation is not my issue but Hyperion's. I'm saying "Hey, wouldn't it be great if OS4 was ported to the Gamecube." Why can't you understand that?
Yes, it would be. But it can't, unless they reprogram OS4 to retrograde it into OS3 again.
If you wanted OS3 on Gamecube, I wouldn't complain. That's definately possible.
I still don't believe that. You have done nothing to convince me of that fact except to throw 'possibilities' in for argument's sake.
Yes and I paid for a gamecube and love it.
Why don't you give gc-Linux a spin, then?
Then look at the source code.
I don't like linux for the same reasons you don't and others I've mentioned before. I want a licensed and supported product.
If OS4's graphics.library just called the cube's API then it should still work fine on Revolution just like I've mentioned before with A500->A1200 os compliant software.
Ah, yes, it's all so simple on paper, isn't it?
I have been a business applications and database developer for 4 1/2 years. Sometimes on paper things look simple and coding them ends up being a pain in the arse...and sometimes things look difficult on paper and they end up easy. That's just how it is with coding. You don't know until you do it. Why not try?
So long as it follows PC standards. Throw a proprietary bus into the works and your HAL has to be rewritten from scratch for each platform.
Ofcourse it needs to be rewritten from scratch for another platform. You have a HAL and that's all you rewrite and then you can recompile with the rest of the OS and voila - OS4 on another platform.
You're also under the false pretense that all hardware abstraction is done with the HAL.
Do enlighten me then...not that it will really matter to me...
So you really don't need to argue with me about technical details.
Why? Isn't that the primary fault with your idea?
The primary fault of my idea is that one(or some) of the OS4 partners only want to see OS4 on the A1. What you think is possible or impossible means nothing.
Gee wizz, the Gamecube has support for bongoes, too!
Yes, it's truely a unique device that thrives on creativity over raw power. You just gotta love it and ask what will they come out with next.
And if you knew anything about the GC, you would know it has 2 completely different and separate memory banks.
The memory is clocked at different speeds but is mapped continously. They work like "chip" and "fast" RAM on the Amiga, except the speed differential is caused by the memory clocking, not which chip can access it.
Quite advanced, but technically, this is still a unified memory architecture.
Do your homework on that one. 24MB is T1 mosys memory (ultra low latency) and 16MB is SORAM not directly accessible by the cpu but is so by Flipper and the dsp. Developers have been using it as a ram-disk.
So what you are saying is that OS4 which is targetted at the G3FX chip would have to be completely re-written to run on a G4 equipped A1?
Effectively, yes, because the total hardware is different, not just the CPU, and even if the system architecture is the same, the two cores are not binary compatible, which is why you'd have to recompile all your apps, too.
Recompiling apps for each hardware platform isn't a viable option. Linux people deal with it, but that's another of the million reason why Linux can't gain any desktop market share.
So when you buy your MAC software you have to specify a G3 Mac or a G4 MAC? I don't think so. I think you are making stuff up to see if I buy it. Nice try.
Remember, all I'm asking for is a licensed port of OS4 to a cheaper (and in some ways more modern) hardware platform.
It's modern only by gaming standards. It's a purpose-built machine.
I'm not even saying it's modern (2001). I'm saying it's a cheaper alternative to the A1 that could satisfy the needs of the average user who just wants to run an app or 2 at a time and surf the web. Also, a more robust version could be written for Revolution (which will have more featured like a built-in hard drive). Atleast there's a clear upgrade path - GC to Revolution. What have we now?
Revolution could be different architecutally, but it's still purpose built for gaming. So is XBox 360 and PS3, but those are off-topic, of course.
Actually, since the XBOX 360 is going to be G5 based, I will say that it is on topic. As is the Cell processor. Funny how everybody went to IBM...it's almost like Nintendo knew what they were doing with the Gamecube...or something...
Gekko is a PPC just like a 1997 Pontiac Firebird is like a 1998 Firebird.
Well... well... a 1949 Volkswagen Beetle and a 2006 Honda Accord both used the same gas and oil! So there!
2 different companies here. IBM makes the G3 FX and the G3 GX(Gekko), IBM doesn't make the G4 but since Motorola is part the the PPC architectural alliance...you know the rest. What you are comparing in your example is a Pentium 66 to an Athlon XP...
Hey, do you think you can branch this topic some more, and maybe bump it a few more times every day by posting more than one response consecutively?
Bump.
-
@ottomobiehl
Unfortunately the dreamers are locked into an A1 solution... Sometimes I think the delays are almost an excuse to eventually say 'hey, the A1 is too out-dated now, let's move on...'
-
Other than the setup screen to set the time and play with the memory cards, it just looks to boot from disc. I believe it's all of 32k...
You yourself said there's no BIOS. I suppose this "32K" just magically appeared?
another silly comment...
Another silly retort to bypass having to support your arguments.
I will reiterate that 40MB is more than enough to run the OS4 kernal and some apps. I believe Hyperion has commented on the kernal size on this site quite some time ago incase someone wants to look it up.
I will reiterate that kernel size has nothing to do with memory consumption.
If you concede my marketing points are valid, why must you knit-pick me to death on hardware comments I've made?
Hardware != marketting. That's why. Dreamers tend to forget that.
Also, I didn't say your marketting points are valid. You should also learn the meaning of the word "may."
I have been a business applications and database developer for 4 1/2 years. Sometimes on paper things look simple and coding them ends up being a pain in the arse...and sometimes things look difficult on paper and they end up easy. That's just how it is with coding. You don't know until you do it. Why not try?
I'm a database programmer, myself. I do other programming, too, but you wouldn't be interested.
Ofcourse it needs to be rewritten from scratch for another platform. You have a HAL and that's all you rewrite and then you can recompile with the rest of the OS and voila - OS4 on another platform.
You don't rewrite a HAL, you modify it. If each platform doesn't have a common set of features (as PCs and consoles do not), porting the HAL eventually boils down to emulation.
Do enlighten me then...not that it will really matter to me...
I guess not. :-)
The primary fault of my idea is that one(or some) of the OS4 partners only want to see OS4 on the A1. What you think is possible or impossible means nothing.
Even hardware compatibility?
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented
I fully agree...
It would be a true dream if all the amigans could get cheap hardware to run the OS4 candy...
-
Waccoon wrote:
Other than the setup screen to set the time and play with the memory cards, it just looks to boot from disc. I believe it's all of 32k...
You yourself said there's no BIOS. I suppose this "32K" just magically appeared?
It's not a traditional BIOS in the sense you are thinking of. An OS wouldn't look to it for any low-level stuff. It's just what you see when you turn on the GC without a disc. It all hits the metal directly to save space. A HAL for a licensed OS4 wouldn't look at it for anything. All drivers are booted from a game disc which was actually my original point when I said it didn't have a bios than needed to be studied.
I will reiterate that 40MB is more than enough to run the OS4 kernal and some apps. I believe Hyperion has commented on the kernal size on this site quite some time ago incase someone wants to look it up.
I will reiterate that kernel size has nothing to do with memory consumption.
No but name me one OS loads every system file into memory as well as has a huge chunk of the file system cached in RAM before it can function. That's the only reason you would need alot of RAM. Even Windows 95 booted with 16MB of RAM.
If you concede my marketing points are valid, why must you knit-pick me to death on hardware comments I've made?
Hardware != marketting. That's why. Dreamers tend to forget that
Also, I didn't say your marketting points are valid. You should also learn the meaning of the word "may.".
How is hardware marketing. In order to market this, why would a consumer care about the hardware challenges that WERE involved in getting the product created? They just want something that they load up and it works.
Yes, I know: you 'may' never admit my points are valid.
I have been a business applications and database developer for 4 1/2 years. Sometimes on paper things look simple and coding them ends up being a pain in the arse...and sometimes things look difficult on paper and they end up easy. That's just how it is with coding. You don't know until you do it. Why not try?
I'm a database programmer, myself. I do other programming, too, but you wouldn't be interested.
Now if the other programming you do was OS4 porting, I would most certainly be interested. :)
Ofcourse it needs to be rewritten from scratch for another platform. You have a HAL and that's all you rewrite and then you can recompile with the rest of the OS and voila - OS4 on another platform.
You don't rewrite a HAL, you modify it. If each platform doesn't have a common set of features (as PCs and consoles do not), porting the HAL eventually boils down to emulation.
I think we can both agree that the GC and A1 are different enough that the HAL would have to be MOSTLY rewritten. Obviously the functions it presents to the OS would have to be the same but the implimentation is targeting different hardware. I don't agree on the emulation issue.
The primary fault of my idea is that one(or some) of the OS4 partners only want to see OS4 on the A1. What you think is possible or impossible means nothing.
Even hardware compatibility?
[/quote]
Is a Cyberstorm compatible with an A1? Would a Pegasus be? NO. But the OS-compliant software should be. Like I said before, I'm sure you don't specify whether your MAC runs a G3 or G4 when you purchase apps for your MAC...(remember your so-called binary incompatible core faux-issue).
-
Zorro wrote:
ottomobiehl wrote:
I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented
I fully agree...
It would be a true dream if all the amigans could get cheap hardware to run the OS4 candy...
Yes, any cheaper more modern alternative would be great. I just already own a Gamecube and will own Revolution so that is my preference. Plus I certainly don't want to see Amiga running on Microsoft hardware (except as WINUAE).
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
@ lou
I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented. Also, I think I know what you are trying to say. If OS4 "could" get ported over to piece of hardware like the GC then we would have a "cheap" alternative to the A1 motherboard. (Personally I think AROS ported to the GC would make more sense anyway)
I have no doubt that you have some knowledge about this stuff too.
But...
If I have learned anything by being a member of Amiga.org it is that members like Bloodline, Wacoon, Billt and a plethora of others really, really know what they are talking about as far as the technical underlayings of computers and there OS's go.
I think I would have asked more about the feasability of a project like OS4 (or AROS) on the GC and taken advantage of the vast knowledge of the members of Amiga.org who know such things rather than get in a heated argument about it.
That being said, I still think Amiga.org needs the dreamers like you to spout off ideas and maybe we could stumble on to something that is eventually worth doing because I think the survival of the Amiga as we know and love is going to come from the community and not the companies in charge.
Anyway, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say.
Thanks (in advance) for listening with an open mind.
Dan
Because Dan's post just put me in a good mood, I'm gonna be a bit more positive in this post.
Ok Lou, this is the deal... OS4 on a GC is not going to happen, it would cost too much money and require licences, technical documents and a ton of devs to work on the project.
But, the ray of sunshine is that the GC can run Linux... if it also has an X Server, then there is no reason why you couldn't get AROS Hosted* to run on it... That would treat Linux as a HAL and allow you to run Amiga apps, since the AROS and OS4 APIs are so similar (ie from a common root), it wopuldn't take much to implement an OS4Emu (as itix did for MOS), and AROS PPC "should" be binary compatible with MOS on the PPC too.
*Of course we still have to get the varargs issue sorted out with AROS-PPC-Linux Hosted, but it's comming.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I just already own a Gamecube
Same here... :-D
Regretfully it is not going to happen... :-(
:cry: :boohoo: :bigcry:
-
Even Windows 95 booted with 16MiB of RAM.
Actually you COULD Run W95 on a machine with 8 MiB of RAM (minimum spec was 16, but I think 8 was possible as well).
On a sidenote. Some guys have stripped down w95 < 5 MiB total, and w98 < 8-9 MiB total (lacking everything, but still runnable).
Even an encumbering hulk like Windows 2000 runs on 32 MiB of RAM (installed it myself on a pII 333, slow as hell).
(Before anyone asks, Mi = MegaBinary = (2^10)^2 = 1048576; Tired of erroneous usage of Mega. (IEEE standard) )
Oh and lou_dias, I know you feel "shot down". The idea is great, but from my reading this forum for some time I gather that these people have been burnt to many times to jump on this train before something is proven. So do a thourough analysis and come back here then.
Despite the fact that Billt has a business to run he was right initially, if you want something done you had better do it yourself.
(Oh and Me having a HD-less a500 stashed away does not make me an Amiga-guy, so file me under PC-looser (PC as in w2k@Amd64))
-
Because Dan's post just put me in a good mood, I'm gonna be a bit more positive in this post.
:-D Just glad to know I do my bit around here.
-
Even I know it won't happen but neither was OS4 or A1. It was an overall expression of desire from the community that made something happen.
The big problem here is a hardware design was determined and then an OS was designed around it instead of the other way around. If the leg work on the OS had been done first, the target hardware would be more current and we might actually want to pay a pretty penny for it.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Even I know it won't happen but neither was OS4 or A1. It was an overall expression of desire from the community that made something happen.
The big problem here is a hardware design was determined and then an OS was designed around it instead of the other way around. If the leg work on the OS had been done first, the target hardware would be more current and we might actually want to pay a pretty penny for it.
Don't give up on ideas like these though. Eventually somebody is going to have a crazy idea that would be so simple that it might work. That is my hope anyway or rather I'm counting on it. :evilgrin:
By the way, I own a GC also. Been hooked on the Zelda games and the Mario games since the late 80's, which has required me to buy Nintendo's systems since then. :banana:
-
Off-topic: Can't wait for the new Zelda on GC! I'm almost done with Resident Evil 4 - amazing game!
-
Can't wait for the new Zelda on GC! I'm almost done with Resident Evil 4 - amazing game!
I've seen the trailers for the new Zelda game and they remind me of the Lord of the Ring movies, which is good in my opinion. Can't wait for it to come out.
Haven't gotten a chance to play Resident Evil 4 on the GC though. I do love the survival horrer bit though.
-
Resident Evil 4 is THE GAME to own on the Gamecube. It shows the true power of the Gamecube. It has to be played to be believed. Anyone who plays it would clearly see why this platform has the power to host the Amiga OS.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Resident Evil 4 is THE GAME to own on the Gamecube. It shows the true power of the Gamecube. It has to be played to be believed. Anyone who plays it would clearly see why this platform has the power to host the Amiga OS.
I'll be sure to play it on your recomendation. :-)
Forgot to mention that Metroid Prime (both of them) was really good. They did a good job of transitioning from a 2D tile game to a 3D one. Kudos there.
-
Yes, Metroid Prime 2 was actually tied or sole runner-up to Game Of The Year (which was Half-Life 2) across all platforms for 2004 in various printed and online magazines. Who would have 'thunk' it? Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...
-
Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...
I can say with great pride that I have never played HALO 2. For that matter, I've never played the original HALO. I would never buy an Xbox. I don't know how Microsoft spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered PC.
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...
I can say with great pride that I have never played HALO 2. For that matter, I've never played the original HALO. I would never buy an Xbox. I don't know how Microsoft spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered PC.
Only to switch to a completely new platform. Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs. How sad for them. Who knows, maybe we'll see a PPC Windows again... Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!
-
Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!
:roflmao:
or maybe OSX on an the PC. :-)
Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs.
You know, I had heard this and I thought that the irony was incredible. I'm sure that they are using OSX for the OS on those Dev macs too.
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!
:roflmao:
or maybe OSX on an the PC. :-)
Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs.
You know, I had heard this and I thought that the irony was incredible. I'm sure that they are using OSX for the OS on those Dev macs too.
Given Apple's policy, they don't have much of a choice.
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!
:roflmao:
or maybe OSX on an the PC. :-)
Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs.
You know, I had heard this and I thought that the irony was incredible. I'm sure that they are using OSX for the OS on those Dev macs too.
Nope, they use Windows on a PPC NT kernel.
-
You guys must have a lot of free time, all those quotes & double quotes... Phew!
It makes me wonder how much clout Bungee, (being M$'s golden child) have over the Xbox2/360 development devision? (considering they originally come from an Apple background)...
Irony? Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?
Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?
I just like games, regardless of the hardware.
-
mdma wrote:
Nope, they use Windows on a PPC NT kernel.
Figures, I thought they had given up on the non-x86 NT kernal development.
coldfish wrote:
Irony? Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?
Good point. :-)
Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?
Wow! You know, I hadn't realised that. If the Amiga had been properly marketed with stuff like this it wouldn't have died off so quickly. Go figure.
By the way coldfish, I love your avatar. Father Ted, in my opinion, is a brilliant show. To bad Dermot Morgan had to pass away.
-
coldfish wrote:
It makes me wonder how much clout Bungee, (being M$'s golden child) have over the Xbox2/360 development devision? (considering they originally come from an Apple background)...
Irony? Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?
Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?
I just like games, regardless of the hardware.
I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support. I wouldn't be surprised if the were just using Metrowerks' Code Warrior (just like PS2 and Gamecube) on the MAC and opengl in order to get more cross-platform games that would come out on the PS2/3 first...
Weren't SEGA Genesis/Masterdrive games rumored to be developed on the Amiga?
-
lou_dias wrote:
I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support. I wouldn't be surprised if the were just using Metrowerks' Code Warrior (just like PS2 and Gamecube) on the MAC and opengl in order to get more cross-platform games that would come out on the PS2/3 first...
I doubt it. All signs point to a Microsoft supplied development tool. This might change, but Metrowerks didn't have a development tool for the first Xbox either. Also, I've seen several accounts of the Mac G5's being temporary until real development boxes are available. (We'll see what the games are running on at this year's E3 I guess).
Also, developing PS3 games on a Mac wouldn't be that useful because the differences in architecture. It's likely Sony will produce something like the old PSTool with Linux running on a cell processor. Of course, the CodeWarrior option would be eventually available for cross-compiling but it will likely be PC based also.
-
ottomobiehl wrote:
Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...
I can say with great pride that I have never played HALO 2. For that matter, I've never played the original HALO. I would never buy an Xbox. I don't know how Microsoft spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered PC.
It's a shame that you haven't played 2 of the best 1st person shooters of all time.
The Xbox hardware is perfectly suitable for games. It's just as powerful as the other consoles of it's generation. For reference, the GCN's Gekko is roughly the equivilent power of a P3-700MHz. So, you could say "I don't know how Nintendo spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered Mac.". I would add that Nintendo spends just as much money yet lost their #2 slot for home consoles to Microsoft. If anything, the PS2 is more dated and less powerful, but still is #1 and has the best game catalog.
-
I like my Xbox, its given me many good hours of gaming fun, I also like my PC, MAMEbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, GBAsp et al for the same reason.
AND, I liked my Amigas too, back when they provided my main source of computer entertainment. I'm happy they've gone on to someone who can enjoy them afresh, rather than getting lost in storage.
ottomobiehl: By the way coldfish, I love your avatar. Father Ted, in my opinion, is a brilliant show. To bad Dermot Morgan had to pass away.
Thanks, you've got to love Father Jack, he's a nasty, grimey old bast'!
It was weird when Dermot died, I hope God forgave all the Catholic jokes...
-
@adolescent
It's a shame that you haven't played 2 of the best 1st person shooters of all time.
As Maurice Chavez on Vice City Public Radio says, "It's all a matter of perception." ;-)
I have no doubt that they are probably fun games and I would most likely be hooked if I played them but to me the best FPS game that I've played is the old LucasArts game Outlaws. I still love that game. The other FPS games I've been playing lately are Battlefield 1942 and the Medal of Honor series. I usually don't play FPS on consoles as the controllers usually drive me mad. I prefer the ol' keyboard and mouse approach.
edit: Ahhhh, now I've gone and seen that they have Halo for the PC and Mac. I guess I'm going to have to try them now. Shucks.
The Xbox hardware is perfectly suitable for games. It's just as powerful as the other consoles of it's generation. For reference, the GCN's Gekko is roughly the equivilent power of a P3-700MHz. So, you could say "I don't know how Nintendo spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered Mac.". I would add that Nintendo spends just as much money yet lost their #2 slot for home consoles to Microsoft. If anything, the PS2 is more dated and less powerful, but still is #1 and has the best game catalog.
You have some very good points and I won't deny you that. My R&D comment was probably not very fair. The only game that has come out on the Xbox that I've really been interested in is Fable so one game is not enough to make me plunk down some hard earned cash on a console. I also have some issues with Microsoft's business practices but you could also say the same of Sony or Nintendo so I won't go into that either. I do, however, have some loyalty to Nintendo and Sony due to some of the franchises that they have and maybe the Xbox will move ahead in the respect.
The truth be told, when I heard that the Xbox2 was going to be PowerPC based it Piqued my interest so who knows what the future may hold.
@Coldfish
Thanks, you've got to love Father Jack, he's a nasty, grimey old bast'!
"Drink, Fek, Girls!" :lol: or Dougal, "Ted! I don't want to drive the milk float no more!"
It was weird when Dermot died, I hope God forgave all the Catholic jokes...
No kidding. I wonder what purgatory is like this time of year? :-D
-
This thread is priceless... :lol: :lol:
We need people like lou to put forward ideas like this, because let's face it something's only impossible until it's done. And AmigaOS 4 _is_ possible on the Gamecube.
It's also completely pointless.
The GC has what an OS needs - CPU, RAM, display, keyboard and a disk drive.
It however lacks:
Fast expansion bus (no, 81MB/S is not fast - not when it's your only bus - and that's probably theoretical max anyway)
Read/Write storage medium (SD cards are too slow and small by far to be practical)
A decent amount of RAM - 32MB isn't enough for a modern OS. Not even AmigaOS 4 is comfortable in 32MB, by the time you've added the disk caches etc..
It could work but it'd be so slow as to not be worthwhile. The CPU speed is only a limiting factor, remember. The CPU speed is irrelevant if its being held up by something else.
The biggest problem though is the lack of documentation. If you want to know how the Flipper chip works then you'll probably have to go and raid ATI or something - I can't imagine they'd give you that info free (though I could be wrong I suppose). You'd also need documentation on the workings of the sound chip, memory card, disk drive etc. etc. which Nintendo definitely wouldn't give out. And to say that that info is in the SDK only shows that you've never seen an SDK. :) The SDK gives you functions like "ResetZBuffer()" or something, it doesn't tell you how it's done. It's way way way too little to actually write drivers from.
And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga, except more so... it's a hideous tangle of chips and busses and timing and interrupts and vectors and ... . Any other PS2 programmer knows what I mean.
Also - that quote about the internet running on 10Mbit/S... er... I have nothing to say on that. :)
So nice idea, but really unfeasible. The GC is a games machine, it's specialised hardware, and not at all suited to running AmigaOS 4.
That's my 2 cents - here endeth the lesson. :)
-
spirantho wrote:
And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga
Well, if AmigaOS 4 will land on a PS2, I, for one, will be however a loooot happy ! :-D
-
Zorro wrote:
spirantho wrote:
And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga
Well, if AmigaOS 4 will land on a PS2, I, for one, will be however a loooot happy ! :-D
Do they still make the linux kit for the PS2? I bet you could run/develop AROS on top of it. Would be a neat little project.
-
A quick note about Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7848
Also, Nintendo only lost the #2 spot this Christmas shopping season due to the spurred sales of people wanting to play HALO 2. Up until then, Nintendo has been #2 worldwide the whole time despite what Microsoft will tell you. Also, for the fiscal year ending March 31 in 2004, Nintendo was and still is the second largest producer of video games on the planet...second only to Electronic Arts.
You can also look here: http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
for some Japanese year (as of March 27, 2005) to date hardware sales.
I don't doubt that Microsoft has given developers a "Visual Studio" package that compiles Mac applications. Don't they own 20% of Apple anyway? The point of using the Mac specific version is that it's a G5 and that's about the performance they can expect from the X360. So I don't believe they are running WinXP on the Mac at all. Microsoft does sell MS Office to the Mac platform. It was part of the investment deal back in '97 I think.
Microsoft has given developers something fast and now and even alot of Japanese developers who have shunned the original XBOX are taking notice. They are hoping to be first to market with the 'next-gen' consoles hoping to grab market share like they feel Sony did with the PS2. What I feel (yes my own opinion) is that they didn't look far enough back in history..ie...Dreamcast. SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2). Rumor has it that X360 is sticking with the 4.7GB DVD format and will not include a harddrive (although one can be added on, developers are being encouraged not to count on it or make it mandatory). So the PS3 with have a media advantage and power advantage since Sony is using Blue-Ray and Cell.
The dark horse is Nintendo. What I've read so far is that once again an existing chip (G5) is being enhanced per Nintendo specs (just like the G3 was) and it will include a 15GB hard drive. Not to mention no-fee online play features and built-in Wi-Fi capabilities. This CPU is called 'Broadway'.
It will also act as a hub for the Nintendo DS handheld to allow it to go online for free as well.
So I see Nintendo in the middle again on the 'power' levels but will offer free online play and a new unique user interface. It will be backwards compatible with GC software and controllers as well. It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.
Also, since ATI got shafted by Microsoft this generation, I don't see them delivering a better chipset to Microsoft over Nintendo. Again, Nintendo is getting a customized version... This GPU is called 'Hollywood'.
Broadway and Hollywood, the center of stage and film.
There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems. The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles. As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.
-
There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems. The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles. As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.
I will be getting one as I have stated earlier, like the Zelda and Mario games ... oh yea, Metroid too.
:-)
-
lou_dias: I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support.
That was a long time ago. Now that more and more devices are using PPC, Microsoft has Windows running on PPC again. They just haven't released it, of course.
spirantho: And AmigaOS 4 _is_ possible on the Gamecube.
It's also completely pointless.
Anything is possible if you don't intend to port it 100%.
Then again, OS4 hasn't been released, so there really isn't a 100% reference point, yet. Who knows what evils still lurk in there. :-)
ottomobiehl: Do they still make the linux kit for the PS2?
It's been officially discontinued for a while.
lou_dias: The point of using the Mac specific version is that it's a G5 and that's about the performance they can expect from the X360. So I don't believe they are running WinXP on the Mac at all.
Well, I suppose you could always just ask.
Question: if the consoles are so powerful, why are console development systems always conventional PCs and workstations?
SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).
SEGA just didn't drive enough hype for the platform. SEGA's dev kit was one of the best in the industry and the hardware itself was very clean. Early PS2 titles looked like crap next to Dreamcast titles, and even newer titles still suffer from shakey textures and other artifacts. I was very disappointed how easily the magazines wrote-off Dreamcast.
The fact that Sonic Adventure was the buggiest damn game I've ever seen on a console didn't help Dreamcast, either. I mean, Sonic regularly fell through floors. Oops.
It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.
N64 struggled a lot and Gamecube didn't really improve on that. Nintendo had better have a very convincing lineup when the system is officially unveiled, or it will get burried under the unsurmountable hype machine that prevented people from buying Dreamcast.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the Amiga.
-
by lou_dias:
What I feel (yes my own opinion) is that they didn't look far enough back in history..ie...Dreamcast. SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2). Rumor has it that X360 is sticking with the 4.7GB DVD format and will not include a harddrive (although one can be added on, developers are being encouraged not to count on it or make it mandatory). So the PS3 with have a media advantage and power advantage since Sony is using Blue-Ray and Cell.
I dont think M$ are presently in the same position Sega were in when they released the Dreamcast.
Sega werent playing from a position of strength, how long had Saturn been out of production, years wasnt it? How was their reputation going after the failure of Sega-CD, 32X and Saturn?
Xbox2/360 will release right on the back of the increasingly popular Xbox platform.
Also, Sega lacked the financial backup to recover from poor DC sales and perhaps revive it with a massive marketing push.
M$'s Xbox didnt have the best start either, but after that initial (large) price reduction and strong marketing, they have managed to grow marketshare and more importantly, mindshare in preperation for Xbox-360's release.
Among developers, there's a lot less negativity and confusion surrounding Xbox-360, compared to this stage in Xbox's development.
As for Xbo-360 lacking Blue-Ray tech, I'm not fussed, I dont really want to have to buy my entire DVD collection all over again. Besides, it still remains to be seen how well Blue-Ray will do against HD-DVD in the mainstream video market, cough* -betamax- cough!
As far a cell goes, apart from plenty of hype, we're yet to see anything worth crowing about. Those 8 SPE's with their rather modest 7M logic transistors each, dont quite inspire me to do hand-stands just yet.
At the moment I pity Sony's cell/PS3 SDK programming team.
Cell:
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html
http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT021005084318
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2.ars
-
Waccoon wrote:
Question: if the consoles are so powerful, why are console development systems always conventional PCs and workstations?
It's not a question of power but a question of software. Development tools exist on PC's so why reinvent the wheel. Afterall, compilers aren't just limited to compiling for the cpu they are currently running on anymore...
SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).
SEGA just didn't drive enough hype for the platform. SEGA's dev kit was one of the best in the industry and the hardware itself was very clean. Early PS2 titles looked like crap next to Dreamcast titles, and even newer titles still suffer from shakey textures and other artifacts. I was very disappointed how easily the magazines wrote-off Dreamcast.
I always felt it was the way they divided their fan-base...do you buy a 32X or a Saturn...then 6 months later announce Dreamcast as right around the corner...
It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.
N64 struggled a lot and Gamecube didn't really improve on that. Nintendo had better have a very convincing lineup when the system is officially unveiled, or it will get burried under the unsurmountable hype machine that prevented people from buying Dreamcast.
[/quote]
Sony did a similar stunt with the PS2 like they did with the PS3 in February when they demoed the 'Cell'. It was the 4.6GHz version that they used to 'wow' the crowd and strike fear of owning a 'weaker' system. Anyone in there right mind knows that the PS3 won't sport a 4.6GHz version let alone the 10-core version... They did something like this with the 'emotion engine' as well right around the time the Dreamcast was being released...
Well, what Nintendo learned with the N64 was to make a low cost system with an easy API. The GC has been a money maker for Nintendo. Nintendo also sports the quickest load times...I guess that was another thing they continued to do right...(yes, I know it was cart on N64 but I mean compared to Saturn and PS1 and the GC to the present systems as well).
-
coldfish wrote:
Among developers, there's a lot less negativity and confusion surrounding Xbox-360, compared to this stage in Xbox's development.
I regretfully agree. [die MS die]
As for Xbo-360 lacking Blue-Ray tech, I'm not fussed, I dont really want to have to buy my entire DVD collection all over again. Besides, it still remains to be seen how well Blue-Ray will do against HD-DVD in the mainstream video market, cough* -betamax- cough!
But supposedly, X360 is using it's current DVD format, not HD-DVD.
At the moment I pity Sony's cell/PS3 SDK programming team.
This is another Nintendo advantage - maintaining the same API as the Gamecube for Revolution. Developers have already responded quite favorably to this. I just hope Nintendo does go with HD-DVD just to have another edge over XBOX360 and hang with Sony on the media department... No official word there yet. Can't wait for E3!
-
lou_dias wrote:
A quick note about Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7848
Also, Nintendo only lost the #2 spot this Christmas shopping season due to the spurred sales of people wanting to play HALO 2.
Yes, they lost it, and have yet to gain it back. All indications prior showed MS and GC in dead heat with Sony waaaaaay out front. Remember, we're talking about console only, not handheld. The only reason Nintendo can continue to operate they way they do is because of Gameboy sales. (ie. failures like Virtual Boy and Gamecube would likely bankrupt a lesser company)
The dark horse is Nintendo. What I've read so far is that once again an existing chip (G5) is being enhanced per Nintendo specs (just like the G3 was) and it will include a 15GB hard drive. Not to mention no-fee online play features and built-in Wi-Fi capabilities. This CPU is called 'Broadway'.
This is nothhing new for Nintendo. Remember the N64 used a custom MIPS CPU.
As for the online play, I'll believe it when I see it. In the case of the GCN it was a waste because the small number of games that supported it.
It will also act as a hub for the Nintendo DS handheld to allow it to go online for free as well.
See above. Had they used standard wifi you could do this now, not have to wait for the service to be available. I play Twisted Metal free now on my PSP using my home router.
It will be backwards compatible with GC software and controllers as well. It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.
Define "quickly". This is Nintendo's first home console with backwards compatibility. I wouldn't say 20+ years is quick.
There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems. The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles. As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.
The big -'s are that it doesn't exist. So, you shouldn't bet on a winner this early in the game.
As for first party games, if you want to play yet another Mario game, then sure. But, Nintendo puts out lots of stinkers (Luigi's Mansion, Star Fox Adventures, WarioWare, etc.?) using their licensees. If we were talking strictly about the GCN, then you could say the only reason to buy a GCN would be to play a few exclusive titles.
-
adolescent wrote:
Yes, they lost it, and have yet to gain it back. All indications prior showed MS and GC in dead heat with Sony waaaaaay out front. Remember, we're talking about console only, not handheld. The only reason Nintendo can continue to operate they way they do is because of Gameboy sales. (ie. failures like Virtual Boy and Gamecube would likely bankrupt a lesser company)
If a system makes the company money (like the GC did) how can it be called a failure? Maybe they didn't quite reach the target # of units but they didn't lose the hundreds of millions that Microsoft did/is. Nintendo profited from GC sales. Even at $125, the system was making a profit for them on sales of the console. Even Sony was able to make a profit or minor loss on sales of the console. That's another reason MS is first out of the box with a new machine. That's another reason why x360 won't include a harddrive or go to HD-DVD - to cut costs.
As for the online play, I'll believe it when I see it. In the case of the GCN it was a waste because the small number of games that supported it.
I wouldn't doubt some sort of advertizement scheme when you 'go online' or just charging an extra $20 for a game that you can play online as sort of a one-time fee per game. The network is being developed by Gamespy. If Nintendo says free, that means I won't have to pay a monthly fee to play online. It doesn't mean that they won't sell upgrade and extra maps like with Xbox Live...all I can say is that there will be no monthly fee to play across the planet.
See above. Had they used standard wifi you could do this now, not have to wait for the service to be available. I play Twisted Metal free now on my PSP using my home router.
The DS does support 802.11B but no games are taking advantage of it yet as the network backbone is still being developed. Hey, how do you like buying 8 copies of a game in order to play against 7 of your near-by PSP-owning friends? Not so on the DS, everyone just downloads it from the one with the copy and all can join in on the fun. Advantage - Nintendo.
Define "quickly". This is Nintendo's first home console with backwards compatibility. I wouldn't say 20+ years is quick.
It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.
The big -'s are that it doesn't exist. So, you shouldn't bet on a winner this early in the game.
As for first party games, if you want to play yet another Mario game, then sure. But, Nintendo puts out lots of stinkers (Luigi's Mansion, Star Fox Adventures, WarioWare, etc.?) using their licensees. If we were talking strictly about the GCN, then you could say the only reason to buy a GCN would be to play a few exclusive titles.
Revolution will exist...Just more hate on your part. F-Zero, Mario Kart, Metroid Prime 1 & 2 - did you forget those? Excellent games. MP2 was runner-up to game of the year across many a magazine. Fire Emblem? Star Fox Assault is kick ass. S F Adventures was an excellent game but varied from the traditional S F formula and that's the only bad thing anyone can say about it. Also, Nintendo has stated that it will start NEW franchises, more 'adult' ones on Revolution. Oh lest not we forget Zelda. This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.
And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Define "quickly". This is Nintendo's first home console with backwards compatibility. I wouldn't say 20+ years is quick.
It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.
You look at things objectively? Not so far.
Not sure where the "Nintendo-hater" came from. I have a huge collection of Nintendo products from the NES to GCN (including Japanese systems like a SFC, the Panasonic Q, etc.) as well as a ton of games both US and Japanese. I don't know where the hate comes in when I'm just stating a fact. They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
The big -'s are that it doesn't exist. So, you shouldn't bet on a winner this early in the game.
Revolution will exist...Just more hate on your part.
Learn to read please.
The specs are hardly finalized enough to have any idea of how good the system and/or games will be and how it will stack up against other consoles in development.
F-Zero, Mario Kart, Metroid Prime 1 & 2 - did you forget those? Excellent games. MP2 was runner-up to game of the year across many a magazine. Fire Emblem? Star Fox Assault is kick ass. S F Adventures was an excellent game but varied from the traditional S F formula and that's the only bad thing anyone can say about it. Also, Nintendo has stated that it will start NEW franchises, more 'adult' ones on Revolution. Oh lest not we forget Zelda. This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.
Again, try reading the message, not looking for some secret meaning. Sure, they have some good games, every console does. But, Nintendo tends to take it's licensed characters and make bad sequels to games. SFA is a perfect example. It was originally a N64 game (or DD, I can't remember) that was cancelled, needing GCN games, Nintendo repackaged it with Starfox characters and the result was just not that special.
And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.
Pure speculation, since nobody has ever seen a single frame of the game running.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Hey, how do you like buying 8 copies of a game in order to play against 7 of your near-by PSP-owning friends? Not so on the DS, everyone just downloads it from the one with the copy and all can join in on the fun. Advantage - Nintendo.
Some more facts for you...
- Not all games will support "DS Download Play" single game card multiplayer, some games still need copies for each player.
- Of the games that do support it often they don't offer the complete game in multiplayer. (ie like GBA single pak multiplayer)
- PSP games like THUG and Twisted Metal DO support this (un-oficially)
- PSP works on wireless LAN/hotspot NOW (not in development, promised, etc. NOW!)
Advantage - PSP
-
About the Dreamcast...
If I recall correctly, the dreacast featured a ~200 mhz MIPS(EDIT:Thanks Waccoon), and a Power-VR2 graphics chip.
If you recall, SEGA used two devteams, kind of like apple back in the beginning(AppleII versus Mac?? help me here). One US team and one Japanese team.
The US team featured a 3Dfx chip and its rendition of the dreamcast was more powerful.
Unfortunately 3Dfx did an IPO (initial public stock offering), and released all facts about the not yet signed contract. SEGA didn't like this, so they cancelled the whole US dev team and went with the other alternative (before the IPO from 3Dfx, the US team's idea was basically chosen)
http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/june03/dumbestmoments/readers/index3.shtml
Makes me sad to read.
Despite the fact that this might not have helped 3Dfx retain the 3D performance crown it might have kept the company alive.
-
lou_dias: It's not a question of power but a question of software. Development tools exist on PC's so why reinvent the wheel. Afterall, compilers aren't just limited to compiling for the cpu they are currently running on anymore...
If consoles are just as powerful as PCs, as you contantly uphold, then there should be no re-inventing of the wheel.
lou, aimed at adolscent: It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.
Objectivity requires research, not heralding a system that has yet to be officially displayed. Really, I think people should stop yakking about the next gen systems until al least after E3.
Also, it doesn't really help to hate any given platform. Linux and Amiga people regularly fall into this pit, believing that Microsoft can do nothing right.
I mean, Linux people despise Microsoft, but almost every Linux GUI system looks just like Windows. Red Hat 6 was a per-pixel copy of Win95, which really should have been a major embarrasment to geeks everywhere.
Oh lest not we forget Zelda. This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.
And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.
That's nice, especially since nobody knows anything about these games. May we get back on topic?
adolscent: They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
I'm rather surprised that it took this long for any of the consoles to have any form of backwards compatibility.
I'd like to see when older titles will actually run better on new hardware. This is still where all forms of PCs excell. Software techniques on consoles are just not advanced enough these days.
The specs are hardly finalized enough to have any idea of how good the system and/or games will be and how it will stack up against other consoles in development.
Everything is blind hype in my opinion. I'm more interested in what the machines will look like than what's on the inside. I'll worry about specs when I can see one in the store.
If I hear any more about how Cell is "revolutionary", I'm going to puke. The PS3 is still going to have a seperate GPU to do most of the work -- just like any other console.
I wonder how many people realize the overhead involved when working with so many cores? I don't expect performance to be anything special.
But, Nintendo tends to take it's licensed characters and make bad sequels to games. SFA is a perfect example. It was originally a N64 game (or DD, I can't remember) that was cancelled, needing GCN games, Nintendo repackaged it with Starfox characters and the result was just not that special.
Doesn't everyone?
Still, at least Nintendo has a solid mascot.
Insanity: If I recall correctly, the dreacast featured a ~200 mhz PPC, and a Power-VR2 graphics chip.
Dreamcast was based on Hitachi SH-4, the same architecture family as Saturn.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.
You look at things objectively? Not so far.
Not sure where the "Nintendo-hater" came from. I have a huge collection of Nintendo products from the NES to GCN (including Japanese systems like a SFC, the Panasonic Q, etc.) as well as a ton of games both US and Japanese. I don't know where the hate comes in when I'm just stating a fact. They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
Every opinion I've had, I've given my reasoning behind it. I've even referenced articles when possible.
Re-read your previous post. It's just one giant Nintendo diss.
The specs are hardly finalized enough to have any idea of how good the system and/or games will be and how it will stack up against other consoles in development.
This can be said of xbox360 and ps3 as well
Again, try reading the message, not looking for some secret meaning. Sure, they have some good games, every console does. But, Nintendo tends to take it's licensed characters and make bad sequels to games. SFA is a perfect example. It was originally a N64 game (or DD, I can't remember) that was cancelled, needing GCN games, Nintendo repackaged it with Starfox characters and the result was just not that special.
Maybe you never played the game... I have (and beat it) and like I said before, the only 'flaw' it had was the fact that it didn't follow the prior Star Fox formula which debuted on the SNES. It is an excellent game in it's own right.
And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.
Pure speculation, since nobody has ever seen a single frame of the game running.
Nintendo has announced this already. What does you not seeing a frame have to do with the price of tea in China?
-
Nintendo has announced this already.
eh... So because Nintendo announced the game it's gonna kick ass ? :-?
-
Waccoon wrote:
If consoles are just as powerful as PCs, as you contantly uphold, then there should be no re-inventing of the wheel.
So Nintendo should be using an original NES to create Gamecube software then?
lou, aimed at adolscent: It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.
Objectivity requires research, not heralding a system that has yet to be officially displayed. Really, I think people should stop yakking about the next gen systems until al least after E3.
I have been objective. I have given plain reasons for choosing Revolution over the other 2. Also, I think MS has some great products. I love Visual Studio.net and Office is excellent as is SQL Server. I just don't like their business practices. I think the XBOX is an under-powered PC and I alread own a PC. I think Win2000 is the best OS they've put out yet - to heck with XP.
Oh lest not we forget Zelda. This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.
And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.
That's nice, especially since nobody knows anything about these games. May we get back on topic?
You'll know more at E3. And they are 2 excellent Zelda trailers available: http://www.nintendo.com/gameminiav?gameid=54610f14-1826-4d46-9981-8f72874aee2e&
adolscent: They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
I'm rather surprised that it took this long for any of the consoles to have any form of backwards compatibility.
I'd like to see when older titles will actually run better on new hardware. This is still where all forms of PCs excell. Software techniques on consoles are just not advanced enough these days.
Ditto. But I suspect this may happen with Revolution and GC.
If I hear any more about how Cell is "revolutionary", I'm going to puke. The PS3 is still going to have a seperate GPU to do most of the work -- just like any other console.
I wonder how many people realize the overhead involved when working with so many cores? I don't expect performance to be anything special.
I agree.
To get back on-topic. Since Revolution will use the same API as the GC, any work that could have been done on the GC port of AOS4 could have simply carried-on and continued for Revolution with less of the complaints about hardware capabilities...and you'd really have a system with modern hardware for way less than $1000.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Hey, how do you like buying 8 copies of a game in order to play against 7 of your near-by PSP-owning friends? Not so on the DS, everyone just downloads it from the one with the copy and all can join in on the fun. Advantage - Nintendo.
Some more facts for you...
- Not all games will support "DS Download Play" single game card multiplayer, some games still need copies for each player.
- Of the games that do support it often they don't offer the complete game in multiplayer. (ie like GBA single pak multiplayer)
- PSP games like THUG and Twisted Metal DO support this (un-oficially)
- PSP works on wireless LAN/hotspot NOW (not in development, promised, etc. NOW!)
Advantage - PSP
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7885
Considering the hype... If you look at Japanese sales, the PSP is losing ground again. http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
Keep in mind that these are 2005 stats and don't include the launch of the DS in Japan. (sold over 500,000 at launch)
Advantage - Nintendo
-
adolscent: They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
Who they? Nintendo?
GBA is compatible with GBC and GB carts.
GBC is compatible with GB carts.
Atari had the 7800 which was backwards compatible too.
Amiga CD32 was compatible with CDTV titles too.
NGPC was compatible with NGP carts.
I'm sure there are countless other consoles that are backwards compatible too.
-
Japanese PSP Sales Almost Double DS (News)
http://www.gamepro.com.au/index.php/id;702104525;fp;16;fpid;0
lou:
"But supposedly, X360 is using it's current DVD format, not HD-DVD."
Judging by all the "...HD Era" talk in J Allard's keynote speech at GDC, you may be surprised yet?
Major studios back HD DVD
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/29/hollywood_hd_dvd/
-
coldfish wrote:
Japanese PSP Sales Almost Double DS (News)
http://www.gamepro.com.au/index.php/id;702104525;fp;16;fpid;0
Well the PSP is far better tho i know i have both or at leased my brother has.
adonay :-D
-
mdma wrote:
adolscent: They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
Who they? Nintendo?
GBA is compatible with GBC and GB carts.
GBC is compatible with GB carts.
The discussion was refering to Nintendo "home consoles" only (or actually how Nintendo quickly learns from their mistakes and is offering backwards compatibility... yet takes more than 20 years to actually come to that conclusion (not exactly quick)).
As you mentioned, most other brands have had some sort of backwards compatibility. Of those you didn't mention Atari 5200/2600 (with add-on), Sega Megadrive/SMS (with add-on), PS2/PS1, etc.
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Some more facts for you...
- Not all games will support "DS Download Play" single game card multiplayer, some games still need copies for each player.
- Of the games that do support it often they don't offer the complete game in multiplayer. (ie like GBA single pak multiplayer)
- PSP games like THUG and Twisted Metal DO support this (un-oficially)
- PSP works on wireless LAN/hotspot NOW (not in development, promised, etc. NOW!)
Advantage - PSP
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7885
Considering the hype... If you look at Japanese sales, the PSP is losing ground again. http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
Keep in mind that these are 2005 stats and don't include the launch of the DS in Japan. (sold over 500,000 at launch)
Advantage - Nintendo
Again, you ignore the facts. Why respond to the multiplayer arguments with sales figures? I guess you agree that the PSP is better for multiplayer?
Now on to the sales figures. Had you actually read the article you posted you'd have caught this:
The figures are healthy by comparison with previous product launches in the space - the Nintendo DS, for example, shipped half a million units in North America before Christmas and took over a week to work through that initial shipment.
So, (sales) advantage PSP.
-
Waccoon wrote:
adolscent: They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!
I'm rather surprised that it took this long for any of the consoles to have any form of backwards compatibility.
I'd like to see when older titles will actually run better on new hardware. This is still where all forms of PCs excell. Software techniques on consoles are just not advanced enough these days.
I'm surprised also. Nintendo up to this point seems to think that we have unlimited real estate under our TV sets to proudly display it's consoles. In fact, the Gamecube manual has a section on how to hook up your GCN and N64 to the same TV. :-)
The improvements would be ideal, but I'm not sure how far they can push it. Maybe faster CD access (like PS2) and some polygon smoothing (like PS2) or AA.
Anything more can actually hurt a game. For example, and not a good one, I recently got Half Life 2:CE that comes with Half Life:Source. The old game runs great on the new engine but they didn't change the textures, shading, etc. so at 1280x1024 things look terrible because of the low resolution textures. I can imagine this happening on a system that doesn't allow for updates.
-
seer wrote:
Nintendo has announced this already.
eh... So because Nintendo announced the game it's gonna kick ass ? :-?
Well there aren't too many 'Nintendo-made' games that don't kick ass for the genre they are inteded for. Are you really going to argue about their quality? Honestly, I used to be a Nintendo hater in my foolish youth but the company has won me over. Unlike some companies (MS), they release a quality product be it hardware or software.
-
Your stats are from the week before mine...
Also, they both ignore the 500,000+ Nintendo DS units sold in 4 days in Japan when it was released in December.
http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?page=newsArchive&articleid=e4f9ec56-07c4-4698-bddb-9413c2eb4530&page=archive
-
adolescent wrote:
- Not all games will support "DS Download Play" single game card multiplayer, some games still need copies for each player.
- Of the games that do support it often they don't offer the complete game in multiplayer. (ie like GBA single pak multiplayer)
- PSP games like THUG and Twisted Metal DO support this (un-oficially)
- PSP works on wireless LAN/hotspot NOW (not in development, promised, etc. NOW!)
Again, you ignore the facts. Why respond to the multiplayer arguments with sales figures? I guess you agree that the PSP is better for multiplayer?
Now on to the sales figures. Had you actually read the article you posted you'd have caught this:
The figures are healthy by comparison with previous product launches in the space - the Nintendo DS, for example, shipped half a million units in North America before Christmas and took over a week to work through that initial shipment.
Oh and Nintendo had to increase the initial shipment by 40% due to demand. An extra 200,000 to become 700,000.
http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?page=newsArchive&articleid=b5dc37bb-77e8-400b-99c4-fe10493af1e7&page=archive
Yeah then they continue to sell over 1.3 million total by Dec 31st in the US alone. Yeah, a real sales disappointment - NOT. Now let's see, the PSP debuted last week and has only sold 500,000 out of a million available and pushed the Europe launch back so the US could have half a million PSP's sitting on the shelves...
On multiplayer - Nintendo had the 'download' feature from the start and Sony is only psuedo supporting it because of Nintendo. Nintendo can't force 3rd parties to support that feature.
So, (sales) advantage PSP.
LOL...LMAO...ROTFL!
ps,
Hey how's the battery life on those PSP's? LOL again...
-
Are you really going to argue about their quality?
No, but saying "Nintendo is making it, so it will be good" is not a good argument..
Honestly, I used to be a Nintendo hater in my foolish youth but the company has won me over.
I find this a bit BS.. I buy a product if it is good and does what I want it to do. Not because it's from Nintendo, Sega, MS , Atari.. Besides, companys change.. They get different Management, other employers.. Look at Westwood for a nice example on how a game studio that made the best RTS games and what they are now..
How anyone can hate a company is really beyond me.
-
seer wrote:
How anyone can hate a company is really beyond me.
With business practices like this:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=1210
it's easy.
-
Returning to the origianl subject. I think that you are being a little harsh with regards to the idea that OS4 could or should be able to be run on a system other than the A1 hardware.
I agree that the GC idea would be impractical/virtually impossibl but at least consider the idea rather than dismissing it out of hand.
-
With business practices like this:
As a consumer, I hardly care what 2 businesses do to each other..
/edit
Is it me or is this a bit similar to those red vs blue war BS ?
-
im just wondering why do you guyz still .post in this subject is it realy more to get out of it just wondering?
adonay :-D
-
I was just intrigued by the idea and thought i would say so.
-
adonay wrote:
im just wondering why do you guyz still .post in this subject is it realy more to get out of it just wondering?
adonay :-D
Gee, maybe a bunch of people will come along, read the entire thread and decide "hey, this could be a great way to get Amiga into a mass market device". Afterall, Amiga is a software company now. Who cares what the underlying hardware really is. I'm touting the Gamecube and Revolution because I feel
#1 it would require the least amount of development time to do so and
#2 I don't want to throw money at MS to run on their hardware. MS hardware also breaks rule #1
#3 The A1 is under-powered and over-priced. A GC system can be had for peanuts and has comparable cpu power.
As for not Apple/Mac, they are a closed system.
As for not Sony PS2/3, it breaks my reason #1
I believe OS4 with some bundled software (some Hyperion games, a browser, email client and maybe a retro pak) could be an interesting piece of software on a console.
@DrBlue:
Returning to the origianl subject. I think that you are being a little harsh with regards to the idea that OS4 could or should be able to be run on a system other than the A1 hardware.
Wasn't OS4 supposed to be ported to Cyberstorm'd Amigas? So obviously it was written with portability to other platforms in mind. I remember reading about the HAL and how proud of it Hyperion was. I think there are some underlying issues as to why we don't already have OS4 in our hands that have not been made public. I wouldn't be surprised if all is not well between Hyperion and Eyetech.
http://cube.ign.com/articles/602/602093p1.html
Double dividends! Damn, I should have bought stock years ago!
-
lou_dias wrote:
On multiplayer - Nintendo had the 'download' feature from the start and Sony is only psuedo supporting it because of Nintendo. Nintendo can't force 3rd parties to support that feature.
Force 3rd parties? Nintendo doesn't even use it in all of their games.
So, (sales) advantage PSP.
LOL...LMAO...ROTFL!
ps,
Hey how's the battery life on those PSP's? LOL again...
What does that have to do with sales? I'm trying to figure out whether you are crazy, or have AADD. Instead of answering to something you keep changing the topic.
But, to try to keep up with your attention defecit, the battery life is just fine, for what the PSP can do. I watched Spiderman on UMD without recharging. I haven't really tried playing 6 hours straight to test the battery life during gameplay but so far it's fine.
-
Gee, maybe a bunch of people will come along, read the entire thread and decide "hey, this could be a great way to get Amiga into a mass market device". Afterall, Amiga is a software company now. Who cares what the underlying hardware really is. I'm touting the Gamecube and Revolution because I feel
'
Wasn't OS4 supposed to be ported to Cyberstorm'd Amigas? So obviously it was written with portability to other platforms in mind. I remember reading about the HAL and how proud of it Hyperion was. I think there are some underlying issues as to why we don't already have OS4 in our hands that have not been made public. I wouldn't be surprised if all is not well between Hyperion and Eyetech.
it has been done and they are still doing it. there are betaz out there running on classic amigas but it was coded early from the start and is not identical to a1 os4 couse of different hardware.so here is my question why make os4 that still is at beta stage on a whole new platfor that would need rework.just think how long hyperion have worked on os4 they wont make it again for something that wont last. Yes i know GC has ppc and radeon but its more to it than that even the most stupid of my frinds know that a car is a car and a scoter is a scoter but they allso know that not all cars the same thing and they cant use parts from a tuned lada(your case nintendo) on a toyta supra even if they both have four weels you cant fit the lada weels on a toyota without modifications..
1#why would you like to port os for something like a dieing platfor like an nintendo that would only be usefull when the mashine was new come to think about it you dont need a nintendo with os maybe for webbrowse. and if you want loads of storage space for media hmm witch the nintendo does not have you have a problem..
2# if i want os4 i want DVD playback And a propper cd rom drive wich you dont get with your silly nintendo thing also the os 4 is desgned for a1 boards i feel you would have to make some win / CE© lookalike os made cheap dirt ..
3# as stated in 1 the GC is off market in maximum 2 years from now and so is people^s interest for the platform they will get playstation3..
4#you had to hack the system so badly upp i dont se why you would for an nintendo.
my advice to you get an a1 micro quit nagging about something that never will be..Sure the A1 seems expensive but reamember what people payed for their BPPC\CPPC cards in 96 and they dident complain after a coupple off monts use. i bet annyone whith the interest can get the money for an a1..It might be hard. but if you dont try I think your not interested at all in the new amiga Os4 .
Me for one would never buy Os for an gameconsole un less it were thefuture and i would not get a beta for my buggless gamesystem ever :lol:
its quite silly not to think about all the modding with CF cards(not reliable) all hacks and writing drivers ..kernel bla bla bla for something that would be a so expensive uppgrade nobody would finance it ever :roflmao:
btw good luck on getting support in this mather :lol:
adonay :-D
-
Every opinion I've had, I've given my reasoning behind it. I've even referenced articles when possible.
You never did give the name of that single, inefficient bus in the Wintel PC. Can you provide a reference for that?
I've asked you this multiple times. If you say nothing else, please answer this.
If consoles are just as powerful as PCs, as you contantly uphold, then there should be no re-inventing of the wheel.
So Nintendo should be using an original NES to create Gamecube software then?
What?
You'll know more at E3.
Which is why you're going to keep wetting your pants and telling us all about these machines before E3.
Since Revolution will use the same API as the GC, any work that could have been done on the GC port of AOS4 could have simply carried-on and continued for Revolution with less of the complaints about hardware capabilities
I believe it's been established that OS architecture is more complex than that. But, you're not listening, anyway.
and you'd really have a system with modern hardware for way less than $1000.
Has it occured to you why AmigaOne is so expensive? It is more sophiticated than Gamecube, but mostly it's becuase the guys in charge want it to cost a lot of money. This has been established, too, but you're not listening.
The improvements would be ideal, but I'm not sure how far they can push it. Maybe faster CD access (like PS2) and some polygon smoothing (like PS2) or AA.
You can do a lot if your architecture is sound. It never ceases to amaze me how ePSXe absolutely blows away the compatibility mode supported by the PS2. You haven't seen real power until you've seen a Playstation game running in 1280x1024 in 32-bit color with full AA and modern texture filtering. All that, and it runs without a hickup, too.
Maybe they figured they shouldn't make old games run too much better on the new systems so people would buy new games (which is bologna. People buy new machines to play new games, not old ones).
It's also likely that Sony ignored the very thing that made PSX popular and made PS2 difficult to program on purpose. Maybe the fear of easy emulation was a factor, too. Who knows what goes on in the minds of their marketting department.
Well there aren't too many 'Nintendo-made' games that don't kick ass for the genre they are inteded for.
Not according to the demos I've played in the store. It's a matter of taste. Lots of people have also expressed their enormous disappointment with the new Starfox game on the fansites to which I'm subscribed. I don't own a Gamecube (yet) but I've certainly seen it in action.
I have a PS2, and I can assure you that there are plenty of titles directly published by Sony that kick ass. What does that have to do with Amiga?
Your stats are from the week before mine...
Wait... you follow things by the week?
Yeah then they continue to sell over 1.3 million total by Dec 31st in the US alone. Yeah, a real sales disappointment - NOT.
Didn't SEGA sell 5 million Saturns in Japan, and that was considered a miserable failure?
Kinda makes you feel better about a few thousand Amigas, doesn't it? Especially since Hyperion wanted it that way.
How anyone can hate a company is really beyond me.
Ditto.
Dare I ask what Lou thinks about XNA? (Before you answer, keep in mind E3 hasn't happened, yet) :-)
From the article about Microsoft vs nVidia: "Perhaps most telling of all is the story we've heard from many, many Xbox developers over the past few months - that low-level documentation for the NV2X chipset in the Xbox is not being made available to them, because NVIDIA refuses to release it to Microsoft developer support. The explanation for this offered by developers we spoke to is that NVIDIA is afraid that additional information handed to Microsoft now would be passed straight on to ATI, who would use it to emulate the NV2X in their Xbox 2 chipset."
This sounds pretty typical. When you run with the big dogs, you'll not likely find much kindness from any company.
It's a bit ironic that Amigans hate Microsoft so much, given all the bulls**t Commodore pulled. I don't like Microsoft, either, but you have to admit they are the easy whipping boy of the industry.
Consider how many system crashes are due to bad drivers and not Windows. I just updated my ATI drivers and on top of all the garbase like context menus I don't want, Java is now broken and many GUI components are showing up as blank. I'm really, really upset with ATI right now. Microsoft isn't alone when it comes to pulling lots of idiotic stunts that screw end-users.
I agree that the GC idea would be impractical/virtually impossibl but at least consider the idea rather than dismissing it out of hand.
The real problem is that it would require Nintendo's blessing, and might even require hardware modifications. Why Nintendo would be interested in AmigaOS when they can make a mod of Linux on the cheap is beyond me.
Hell, I was kind of hoping Amiga would do something like Apple and write a new Workbench to run on a modified BSD/Linux, with some new stuff thrown in. OS4 as a whole, on any hardware, is pretty much a lost cause, and suggesting a stripped, purpose-built console with no binary compatibility with "real" Amigas (and in some cases, PPC), could run OS4 without any form of emulation is downright silly. Ask anyone who works on OSes for a living.
#1 it would require the least amount of development time to do so and
#2 I don't want to throw money at MS to run on their hardware. MS hardware also breaks rule #1
#3 The A1 is under-powered and over-priced. A GC system can be had for peanuts and has comparable cpu power.
As for not Apple/Mac, they are a closed system.
As for not Sony PS2/3, it breaks my reason #1
#1 - Not using console hardware would take the least time and money, and have lots more posibilites. Even if Nintendo's APIs were to allow a multitasking memory protected OS, you'd be programming for Nintendo's tools and not the hardware, so portability is near impossible.
#2 - And you yell at other people as being Nintendo haters? Do you expect everyone to herald your anti-MS antics just because this is an Amiga forum?
#3 - Blame Hyperion for that, not the hardware itself. AmigaOne is a horrible mis-match on all levels, and Hyperion had a lot of time to make that decision. Even if Gamecube could run OS4, it's obvious the powers in charge don't want anything even close to that.
You don't like closed systems and want to use consoles? WTF? PCs are built on the most open hardware standards in the world -- and they are nowhere near as expensive as AmigaOne.
I can understand you don't like PS2 because it just sucks. Really. But, your verdict on PS3 is very pre-mature. I suppose you've actually used the hardware?
Also, I'm disappointed you're only looking at console hardware. Don't you think PC vendors would love to use cheap hardware, too? Why don't they? There's no law that a PC (open standards, not Wintel), must run Windows. Why is it so tough to make alternative systems? Do you think there might be, oh... technical reasons for it? Why are Linux PPC boards intended for servers built like PCs instead of game consoles if all they do is direct Internet traffic and run architecture independent scripting languages and databases?
Could it possibly be that the robustness of the OS required might actually influence hardware design? Say t'ain't so!
I believe OS4 with some bundled software (some Hyperion games, a browser, email client and maybe a retro pak) could be an interesting piece of software on a console.
OS4 isn't modern enough to run a real browser, and Hyperion specializes in porting old games, not making new ones.
Imagine Amiga Anywhere games on Gamecube. That'd be good for a laugh. I wonder what Nintendo Power would say about that. :-)
Wasn't OS4 supposed to be ported to Cyberstorm'd Amigas? So obviously it was written with portability to other platforms in mind.
Lots of things are/were planned for OS4. What matters is what's released.
Wasn't Amiga supposed to make a new OS altogether that would work anywhere?
While we're at it, why not throw around more speculation about the Dragon board, too?
adonay: its quite silly not to think about all the modding with CF cards(not reliable) all hacks and writing drivers ..kernel bla bla bla for something that would be a so expensive uppgrade nobody would finance it ever
I don't think the Gamecube's hardware supports the low-level architecture for a decent OS, but even if it did, so many parts would have to be written from scratch that it would cost millions just to get it up and running.
Of course, we could always take a few years and depend on reverse-engineering and volunteers to get things done, like with gc-Linux, which can't do anything useful. :-)
-
seer wrote:
How anyone can hate a company is really beyond me.
I think exposes a lack of deeper thinking. ;0)
by lou_dias:
With business practices like this:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=1210
it's easy.
Maybe you should think about the society that breeds individuals that partake in these sorts of business practices???
-
Waccoon wrote:
You never did give the name of that single, inefficient bus in the Wintel PC. Can you provide a reference for that?
I've asked you this multiple times. If you say nothing else, please answer this.
My answer is that the question is pointless.
You'll know more at E3.
Which is why you're going to keep wetting your pants and telling us all about these machines before E3.
Grow up.
Since Revolution will use the same API as the GC, any work that could have been done on the GC port of AOS4 could have simply carried-on and continued for Revolution with less of the complaints about hardware capabilities
I believe it's been established that OS architecture is more complex than that. But, you're not listening, anyway.
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/Develop/Games/GC/Default.htm
Looking at that page, it clearly states:
• NINTENDO GAMECUBE OS was built with CodeWarrior tools, so your code will integrate seamlessly, saving valuable development time
So ofcourse you will make some rudimentary arguement (as always) that this doesn't mean it can run any other OS...
and you'd really have a system with modern hardware for way less than $1000.
Has it occured to you why AmigaOne is so expensive? It is more sophiticated than Gamecube, but mostly it's becuase the guys in charge want it to cost a lot of money. This has been established, too, but you're not listening.
other than having a PPC socket instead of an Athlon or Pentium cpu socket, this board offers technology that is 5 years old. The A1 board would cost $30 if it was an IBM-compatible motherboard. A PPC cpu socket doesn't justify the price difference. And the bundled video card (Radeon 7000) is also 5 or 6 years old.
You can do a lot if your architecture is sound. It never ceases to amaze me how ePSXe absolutely blows away the compatibility mode supported by the PS2. You haven't seen real power until you've seen a Playstation game running in 1280x1024 in 32-bit color with full AA and modern texture filtering. All that, and it runs without a hickup, too.
Yeah, I was running Tekken 3 at 1600x1200x32 fast as hell with a Radeon 7500 and an Athlon 900 using !Bleem. I have used ePSXe now (!Bleem doesn't support Win2k) and it's alot slower. I run an Athlon 2400+ with Radeon All-In-Wonder 8500DV.
Well there aren't too many 'Nintendo-made' games that don't kick ass for the genre they are inteded for.
Not according to the demos I've played in the store. It's a matter of taste. Lots of people have also expressed their enormous disappointment with the new Starfox game on the fansites to which I'm subscribed. I don't own a Gamecube (yet) but I've certainly seen it in action.
Why would you subscribe to a fansite of a game you don't own for a system you don't own?
Well, the big complaint about Star Fox Assault that I've seen on the fan sites is that Namco didn't include LAN play even though it was originally supposed to include it. Other than that, people loved the return of the flying missions but felt the ground combat was thrown in to maintain some consistency with Star Fox Adventures. I've seen the demo and the game looks hot. I'll get it eventually. I just beat Resident Evil 4. You'd do no wrong to buy a used GC just for RE4.
Didn't SEGA sell 5 million Saturns in Japan, and that was considered a miserable failure?
Kinda makes you feel better about a few thousand Amigas, doesn't it? Especially since Hyperion wanted it that way.
There's quite a difference between 'million' and 'thousand'. And why would a company want to limit it's own sales?
Dare I ask what Lou thinks about XNA? (Before you answer, keep in mind E3 hasn't happened, yet) :-)
XNA - what took so damn long. Either way it's just a fancy name for a common set of tools.
I just updated my ATI drivers and on top of all the garbase like context menus I don't want, Java is now broken and many GUI components are showing up as blank. I'm really, really upset with ATI right now. Microsoft isn't alone when it comes to pulling lots of idiotic stunts that screw end-users.
ATI driver updates are always touchy. Great hardware though. The best way is to completely uninstall the old drivers then start new.
#3 - Blame Hyperion for that, not the hardware itself. AmigaOne is a horrible mis-match on all levels, and Hyperion had a lot of time to make that decision. Even if Gamecube could run OS4, it's obvious the powers in charge don't want anything even close to that.
Actually I blame Eyetech. Too bad Hyperion is contractually locked in.
I can understand you don't like PS2 because it just sucks. Really. But, your verdict on PS3 is very pre-mature. I suppose you've actually used the hardware?
Well if you say one PPC cpu isn't binary compatible with another PPC cpu, Cell certainly isn't going to be. And like I said, development carries over from GC to Revolution. I don't believe PS3 will ressemble PS2 in any way.
Also, I'm disappointed you're only looking at console hardware. Don't you think PC vendors would love to use cheap hardware, too? Why don't they? There's no law that a PC (open standards, not Wintel), must run Windows. Why is it so tough to make alternative systems? Do you think there might be, oh... technical reasons for it? Why are Linux PPC boards intended for servers built like PCs instead of game consoles if all they do is direct Internet traffic and run architecture independent scripting languages and databases?
People want a PPC Amiga running OS 4. I already own a PPC machine (Gamecube) and don't feel like spending money on the A1 for the reasons I've already stated. Remember the topic: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
OS4 isn't modern enough to run a real browser, and Hyperion specializes in porting old games, not making new ones.
Don't tell that to the IBrowse users. I can show you server log files of IBrowse users running OS4 connecting to a site I maintain (www.dsbuzz.com) having hit my site (as well as MorphOS). Also, I know they have done ports. Nothing is stopping them from releasing OS4 versions of what they've already done. Like I said - retro-pak.
Imagine Amiga Anywhere games on Gamecube. That'd be good for a laugh. I wonder what Nintendo Power would say about that. :-)
The whole point of Amiga Anywhere is portability. Amiga Anywhere would probably do just fine on a DS or GBA.
so many parts would have to be written from scratch that it would cost millions just to get it up and running
Considering OS4 was written from scratch..for the A1 which was almost designed from scratch... Some how I feel you are overestimating just a bit... Oh and please name the OS4 specific parts that need to be rewritten from scratch since you seem to be the resident expert on porting it.
-
coldfish wrote:
seer wrote:
How anyone can hate a company is really beyond me.
I think exposes a lack of deeper thinking. ;0)
by lou_dias:
With business practices like this:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=1210
it's easy.
Maybe you should think about the society that breeds individuals that partake in these sorts of business practices???
It's definitly the capitalist piggish society that is the U.S. of A. but that's another topic for another thread.
-
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8108
WebTV is Microsoft's effort at bringing internet communication and media functionality to the living room, and includes basic functionality such as web, e-mail and IM access along with the ability to stream music and video channels from the 'net or from local PCs.
Integrating the system with Xbox 360 would be a logical move, and a major land-grab for Microsoft in this space - which is tipped to become more important in the coming years as increasing amounts of content are broadcast over the Internet as opposed to over traditional TV networks.
Who would have thought that people might want there game console to also surf the web and check email and stream video? Darn, why didn't I think of that...oh wait! I did! I did!
Also, Revolution wireless partner announced:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/605/605846p1.html
-
Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
here is one:
http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/information.html (http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/information.html)
http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/pip1.html (http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/pip1.html)
Xbox360=Pippin2?
How long before it´s hacked to run MacOSX?
-
http://brokensaints.com/blog/
holy shiznit, a 3D addon for the gamecube at last year's E3!
Revolution with stereoscopic 3D!
-
Now I also own this for a whopping $14 shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8187606116
Already own this for a whopping $29 shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41040&item=8168213533
now to look for a deal on this:
http://us.codejunkies.com/shop/product.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&ProdID=297
-
lou_dias wrote:
now to look for a deal on this:
http://us.codejunkies.com/shop/product.asp?c=US&cr=USD&cs=$&r=0&l=1&ProdID=297
NAH!!!
what you really want is to wait a bit and get the actual Hard Drive hook up that is being made by the Xecuter squad. haven't seen any pics yet, but they mentioned it while talking about their case replacement w/ a built in MOD chip slot, here:
http://www.teamxecuter.com/
:-D
-
Interesting find. They should have just got this http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=77&products_id=1575& and left well enough alone. The thing you do lose with the 'Q' is progressive scan mode. Strange to offer DVD playback but take away progressive scan mode...
-
FYI just yesterday I was looking at the Linux for Game Cube web site. They have documented Game Cube hardware very well. It should be possible to port AROS to that platform (forget about AOS4 please...that thing barely exists).
Just last month somebody managed to get the Linux/PPC hosted version working:
http://sengor.ath.cx/~sheutlin/aros/Screenshot-AROS.png
Food for thought anyway.
-
You know, the more I think about it...
I never considered AROS that viable as a desktop replacement, but it could be an interesting console platform (much like the original Amiga). The price of the GC is the most appealing aspect. One can even use an emulator to test the AROS CG ROM.
One doesn't need permission from anybody to make this a reality, just lots of time programming :juggler:
If you want to buy 100 GCs and give each AROS developer one that might get things moving :-D
-
strobe wrote:
You know, the more I think about it...
I never considered AROS that viable as a desktop replacement, but it could be an interesting console platform (much like the original Amiga). The price of the GC is the most appealing aspect. One can even use an emulator to test the AROS CG ROM.
It would be better, easier, and cheaper to just use an Xbox. x86 architecture, built in hard drive, fullsize CD/DVD drive, 10/100 NIC, USB, etc. By the time you add all of this to the GCN, you're spending well over the ~$150. (Not to mention there isn't a working HD, and the GCN exploits to actually load homebrew software are more expensive than on the Xbox)
-
lou_dias wrote:
Interesting find. They should have just got this http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=77&products_id=1575& and left well enough alone. The thing you do lose with the 'Q' is progressive scan mode. Strange to offer DVD playback but take away progressive scan mode...
Wrong. The Q supports 480p (progressive scan) for games that support it, just like a regular GCN. The DVD however is not progressive scan.
-
lou_dias wrote:
http://brokensaints.com/blog/
holy shiznit, a 3D addon for the gamecube at last year's E3!
Revolution with stereoscopic 3D!
Yes, the second coming of the Virtual Boy. :lol: Glad to see Nintendo has the gimick market in the bag.
-
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/04/01/warp_pipe.html
-
MS: What's most amazing is the extreme difference of the architectures of the GameCube and the Xbox. The Xbox is a PC, so it has all these legacy features and unneeded PC features -- like plug-n-play -- and is very complicated to program because the hardware interfaces are old and "patchy." Programming the GameCube reminds me more of programming a Commodore 64 or an Amiga: Very clean, minimal hardware interfaces, a perfectly optimized system.
-
Since we're on the Linux topic. How about a fully supported, fully featured, linux distribution of Mandriva (formerly Mandrake) for Xbox? Available now.
Limited Edition 2005, a special new version of its operating system that blends the most up to date popular open source applications, including Firefox 1.0.2, with specific customisations resulting in advanced multimedia, internet and development capabilities. These features include out-of-the-box Web content RSS reading and software sound mixing (so multiple applications can play sound at once). Limited Edition 2005 is the only Linux system to allow the trouble-free coexistence of 32-bit and 64-bit applications. It also offers enhanced hardware support for removable devices, including the ability to boot from USB keys.
Summary of important applications:
Linux kernel 2.6.11.6 ; KDE 3.3.2 (with some backports from version 3.4, including kpdf) ; GNOME 2.8.3 ; Firefox 1.0.2 ; GCC 3.4.3 ; The GIMP 2.2 ; Cdrecord 2.01.01a21 (with DVD+R dual-layer support) ; OpenOffice.org 1.1.4 ; MySQL 4.1.11.
A special feature that will certainly appeal to gamers and enthusiasts is that the new release from Mandriva has support for the Xbox console, empowering users to bridge the divide between gaming and other computer activities.
-
I never really looked at AROS. Don't know much about it. Isn't it currently just an x86 rendition of OS 3.1 that was somehow reverse-engineered? That also means that it wouldn't be compatible with 68k software.
Revolution will include a hard drive. Probably of the 2.5" variety since the whole system is under 1.25" tall. I remember the 121 MB 2.5" harddrive I had in my CD32's SX1 expansion. Ah the memories. :)
Anyway, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11175&item=5774404253&rd=1 could be a storage solution once the OS is loaded from official game disk or memory card. Again, I would really prefer a licensed product that has the entire OS on a Cube 3" disk. The drive has such a quick seek time that I don't think you'd notice much slowdown when system libraries are opened. Newer libraries could always be patched in using the traditional methods (setpatch or whatever).
When I was a full time programmer/admin, all our comapany's apps were loaded from mapped network drives. I don't see that as an issue at all.
Finally, the A1 is even less attractive after reading about thi so-called hardware fix: http://www.forefronttechnologiesinc.com/Products/?item=106
I call that a work-around. LOL, minus one PCI slot.
Oh, and I was playing Metroid Fusion on my 'Cube's Game Boy Player. After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that the disc loads a software emulator and the device is just an interface to read the GBA cartridge. I say this because you can eject the cartridge and switch games without powering down the system. Also, it draws a changeable border around the screen to make up the resolution difference. The GBA's resolution is 240 x 160 pixels and the cube is running at 320x200 for this emulation. Again, this just points at the high speed parrallel interface on the 'Cube as a potential solution to adding an internal hard drive, usb ports and the like.
Adolescent, it seems that since AROS is x86, maybe you could get that running on the XBOX.
Nice to see everyone getting along.
-
I call that a work-around. LOL, minus one PCI slot.
And where does it say the fix makes 1 PCI slot unuseable ? They don't discuss what the HW fix is at all.
Or if you are refering to the "PCI-based IDE controller" that's is not the fix.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
http://brokensaints.com/blog/
holy shiznit, a 3D addon for the gamecube at last year's E3!
Revolution with stereoscopic 3D!
Yes, the second coming of the Virtual Boy. :lol: Glad to see Nintendo has the gimick market in the bag.
Yeah, that guy drew some far out conclusions. The company that does do steroscopic 3D has denied any involvement with Nintendo. Can't wait until Tuesday! E3! I guess you've seen the official Xbox 360 specs: triple core G5 running at 3.2GHz? Supposedly Revolution is running a quad-core at 2.5GHz. No news on the Nintendo special mods for the chip yet. Also, Revolution's ATI RN520 chip has 16MB of eDRAM vs. 360's 10MB. Like I've stated before, Nintendo has stuck with ATI and ATI will take care of Nintendo.
I remember when the XBOX was first announced and MS was looking for hardware suppliers... Originally the plan was an Athlon CPU and ATI chipset... In the end, they went with NVidia and Intel and that's what kept their hardware costs so high and prevented them from making a smaller loss on the hardware. It cost the same to make an Xbox from day 1 to the day they will discontinue it this summer (hmmm, the 'cube may outsell it afterall :) ). Actually more,don't they throw in the DVD remote for free now? C'est la vie.
-
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8785
The plot thickens...
-
seer wrote:
And where does it say the fix makes 1 PCI slot unuseable ? They don't discuss what the HW fix is at all.
Or if you are refering to the "PCI-based IDE controller" that's is not the fix.
The website clearly states that that is the fix.
Read the comments here...it seems there is no real fix... http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45929
Maybe that's why there is no OS4. How can you release an OS for a hardware platform that is not stable at all?
Hey, I know where I can find a stable and cheap PPC platform: http://www.nintendo.com.au/gamecube/system/index.php
-
n the end, they went with NVidia and Intel and that's what kept their hardware costs so high and prevented them from making a smaller loss on the hardware.
Well, MS doesn't really care I suppose, plenty off money to spent, the Xbox was just to get into the market, they succeeded at that.
They knew very well what needed to be done for it to become a succes. Did it do as good as MS wanted/hoped ? Ask MS, only they know.
Now they are in the console market, and pretty big for a new kid on the block. (Ad yes, they were new in the hardware/software console market). Commodore failed at that as well remember.
Some people suggested that the Xbox was a testing field for palladium (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/0724palladiumwp.asp) as such, it may have failed as well, but that's the reason for testing.
-
The website clearly states that that is the fix
No it doesn't say the PCI IDE controler is the fix. Why would an A1 owner need to send the board in so they can put in thePCI card ?
As for the link, hop on over to amigaworld and ask around about the fix. Don't be afraid of the red tint there., it's not that bad. Also, if you read the comments in your link you can see it is clear that the PCI controller isn't the HW fix.
Maybe that's why there is no OS4. How can you release an OS for a hardware platform that is not stable at all?
That's just a troll remark, sorry. You scream when (you think) somebody is trolling at you but you can't stop your self.
Put your money where your mouth is, set up a business, contact Amiga Inc, Nintendo and get the job done. Nobody else is willing to take the gamble.
-
seer wrote:
Well, MS doesn't really care I suppose, plenty off money to spent, the Xbox was just to get into the market, they succeeded at that.
They knew very well what needed to be done for it to become a succes. Did it do as good as MS wanted/hoped ? Ask MS, only they know.
Well,
Todd Holmdahl, the designer of Xbox 360 chipset:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612995p1.html
"We want to design the most powerful, elegant and useful design for developers to create games with Xbox 360," said the impressively tall, lanky Holmdahl. "With the Xbox we had a merchant semi-conductor relationship. With Xbox 360 we have designed and own the chipset, so we can go to whomever we want with it. We're not paying Intel and Nvidia this time," he explained, referring to the exorbitant price paid out each time an Xbox was manufactured.
It seems they felt it was an issue. Nobody like to lose money...NOBODY.
Also, you got any venture capital money that you can send my way to get this project going? How can you accuse me of a troll comment when this thread is exactly about NOT using the A1 and using something cheaper, more stable and abundant? Dare I say - I was right ON-TOPIC.
-
It seems they felt it was an issue. Nobody like to lose money...NOBODY.
The Xbox project was a calculated risc, top management of MS knew that. To get into the market you need to spent money. With the Xbox 1 the got into the market. With Xbox 360, the are getting ready to make money of the Xbox project.
If Xbox 1 failed, MS might have pulled the plug on the Xbox project.
MS could afford to take this risk. Hardly anybody can take on Nintendo or Sony. Sega chickened out..
It may not sound smart to loose money on a project, but in a market as consoles you'd better be prepared to do so if you want to get in.
Also, you got any venture capital money that you can send my way to get this project going?
Your plan, your needs, your ideas, you get the money and work it out. Nobody NOBODY is willing to gamble on your idea. If anybody did, you wouldn't be here crying I want OS4 on Nintendo.
Go to a bank, or a VC. Give them your business proposal (You do have one do you ?). See if they want to gamble with you. I highly doubt that.
How can you accuse me of a troll comment when this thread is exactly about NOT using the A1 and using something cheaper
Because it was trolling. "There is no OS4, A1 hardware is buggy. The fix is useless". Talk to the A1 owners, most of them are happy wth their "unstable" boards.
You don't even know what the fix is. You believe it's a PCI IDE controller.
Oh, perhaps you can contact Acill. At least he was willing to put his money were his mouth was, getting OS4 ported to the Pegasos2. To bad the red trolls made it impossible. Maybe you can convince him in an port to nintendo
/edit
We're not paying Intel and Nvidia this time," he explained, referring to the exorbitant price paid out each time an Xbox was manufactured.
That doesn't say MS or even Holmdahl think that making a loss on the Xbox was an isue.
Holmdahl simply stated that Intel and Nvidia aren't getting money. The good reporter then added that Holmdahl is supposedly reffering to the "exorbitant price"..
-
seer wrote:
Your plan, your needs, your ideas, you get the money and work it out. Nobody NOBODY is willing to gamble on your idea. If anybody did, you wouldn't be here crying I want OS4 on Nintendo.
Go to a bank, or a VC. Give them your business proposal (You do have one do you ?). See if they want to gamble with you. I highly doubt that.
Enough current Amiga owners cried out and suddenly OS4 and the A1 were born. If enough cried for OS4 on Nintendo or Xbox 360 or PS3, something would happen. Me doing it by myself has been discussed already and is a dead issue.
Because it was trolling. "There is no OS4, A1 hardware is buggy. The fix is useless". Talk to the A1 owners, most of them are happy wth their "unstable" boards.
You don't even know what the fix is. You believe it's a PCI IDE controller.
I know there is a PCB workaround. But there are comments that state that even that isn't 100% stable. So that is where the IDE pci card solution came in.
One of the comments:
Cache misses aren't the DMA bug, data corruption is. The VIA's chipset only uses a small segment of the full DMA capability, which limits the data corruption which occurs over it. Now, the SiI chip uses the full DMA spectrum, which causes more data corruption.
Even today people STILL don't grasp what the MAI problem is. It isn't a cache miss, it's data corruption
I mean if you never use the ethernet port on the A1 then I guess you never come across the bug...so much for having an internet capable machine... As far as A1 owners that are not running OS4, I'm sure they have Linux drivers for another 3rd party PCI NIC that lets them use an ethernet port and the IDE without data corruption... It just isn't an option for the potential OS4 customer as no other drivers exist for OS4. So while the A1 may be an excellent Linux platform, I don't see it as a good OS4 platform.
Something has to change. It seems that it's the A1 that has to change. If Eyetech has to go out of it's way to design a brand new mb (actually they didn't even design th A1, MAI did), why not use something that already exists and is stable: Nintnedo Gamecube. Eyetech can design the "GBA Player"-like addon that will give you IDE ports and the like... One without a 'DMA bug'.
That doesn't say MS or even Holmdahl think that making a loss on the Xbox was an isue.
Holmdahl simply stated that Intel and Nvidia aren't getting money. The good reporter then added that Holmdahl is supposedly reffering to the "exorbitant price"..
There are plenty of well-published articles about how MS tried to renegociate their contracts with Intel and NVidia.
http://news.com.com/2100-1047_3-5061321.html?tag=fd_top
I guess it lawsuits are always a non-issue to Microsoft.
Oh, perhaps you can contact Acill. At least he was willing to put his money were his mouth was, getting OS4 ported to the Pegasos2. To bad the red trolls made it impossible. Maybe you can convince him in an port to nintendo
Well, I don't know who the 'red trolls' are but maybe you could refer Acill to this topic then.
-
Enough current Amiga owners cried out and suddenly OS4 and the A1 were born. If enough cried for OS4 on Nintendo or Xbox 360 or PS3, something would happen. Me doing it by myself has been discussed already and is a dead issue
I've seen a few people in this thread that seem to support you.
Take the roll of a leader, contact them, set it up. Don't keep on going here. This way, nothing is going to happen. Nobody is going to do what you want just because you think the idea is good.
People wanted a A500/A1200 style case for the A1. A few guys took the ball and are trying to run with it. They are not rich, but at least they are not talking on the forums "Please please make my idea happen". They are doing everything they can to get it done.
People wanted a G5 PPC amiga. 1 guy tried to get that done. AFAIK, he "failed". At least he tried to set it up.
So.. What have you done so far ?
but maybe you could refer Acill to this topic then.
Me? Why should I do anything for something I don't want and the original poster doesn't seem to want to make happen himself ? Acill is a member of this forum, try to find him in the memberlist or search functions.
Or do you really think he would bite if I contacted him and he discovers you didn't want to take the effort of contacting him yourself ? Good plan ! Let's get involved with somebody and spent my money with somebody who doen't do anything himself.
Sorry, you sound like you only want the easy way.
Even today people STILL don't grasp what the MAI problem is.
Problem is, different "experts" say different things about the MAI problem. The red ones say it a feature not implemented by Linux drivers, the blue ones call it a bug. You seem to think the blue version is correct. Most A1 owners prefer the red version tho.
-
@seer
All I can say is if you don't support this topic then why bother posting in it? If all the anti-topic messages were removed from this thread, I doubt it would exceed 2 pages and may have died along time ago. This thread contains 8+ pages of trolling. Sadly, this is the norm and not the exception for new/different ideas...
I am on my way to having a GC-Linux setup. All I am missing right now is Datel's MaxDrive & Phantasy Star Online 1&2. I already have an ethernet adapter and ps2 keyboard adapter for my gamecube as well as 4x and 16x memory cards. Maybe I could get a second ps2 adapter and plug in a ps2 mouse...the cube has 4 ports afterall. So while I am moving forward in some areas, I am limited by both time and money.
People who do this for a living (Hyperion & Eyetech) are not. Also, legally speaking, I can't modify any OS4 code to run on the GC. Again, this boils down to Hyperion. Maybe they could open-source their HAL, while leaving the rest of the OS closed. If someone could write a HAL for multiple PPC platforms, then they could expand their market. However I believe that they are legally obligated to the A1 and are just waiting for it to crash and burn before they release OS4 on another platform.
It's a theory but is there another explanation for a product that was "95% done" 2 years ago to not be released.
-
All I can say is if you don't support this topic then why bother posting in it?
You want support ? Stop posting and start doing something. People support those who do something, not those who only ask.
You think I'm anti topic ? Read again, I told you what you need to do in order to get what you want. If I was anti topic I would have said, give it up.
Sadly, this is the norm and not the exception for new/different ideas...
If you did something instead of posting you might get somewhere. People have tried to tell you that since the beginning of this thread. You simply don't listen.
They have also tried to tell you why nobody is going to get OS4 on a Nintendo console. From a technical point of view to a business point of view. You either simply ignored them or countered them. I'm not saying you are wrong with your hardware arguments, neither am I saying you are right.
Sofar, all you have done is asking other people to do what you want. It doesn't work that way.
-
So while I am moving forward in some areas, I am limited by both time and money.
People who do this for a living (Hyperion & Eyetech) are not
Excuse me? Are you saying that Hyperion has the time and money to port OS4 to a Nintendo console ??
are just waiting for it to crash and burn before they release OS4 on another platform.
According to Hyperion and Amiga Inc, OS4 is allready running on non A1 or Classic PPC Amiga's.
-
seer wrote:
Excuse me? Are you saying that Hyperion has the time and money to port OS4 to a Nintendo console ??
Well, were did the time and $ come from to develop OS 4 in the first place? They can allocate time and money to it like before and are the only legal developers.
According to Hyperion and Amiga Inc, OS4 is allready running on non A1 or Classic PPC Amiga's.
in beta... Again it boils down to being able to release a stable product. How can you release a product where using the ethernet port and IDE at the same time can randomly cause data corruption? It's Russian Roulette. And it looks like it's the hardware that needs changing. Change it.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Oh, and I was playing Metroid Fusion on my 'Cube's Game Boy Player. After some thought, I've come to the conclusion that the disc loads a software emulator and the device is just an interface to read the GBA cartridge. I say this because you can eject the cartridge and switch games without powering down the system. Also, it draws a changeable border around the screen to make up the resolution difference. The GBA's resolution is 240 x 160 pixels and the cube is running at 320x200 for this emulation. Again, this just points at the high speed parrallel interface on the 'Cube as a potential solution to adding an internal hard drive, usb ports and the like.
The Game Boy Player has the complete GBA hardware in it (minus inputs and outputs). There is no real emulation going on. The frames and screen filters are running on GCN which is acting as the I/O and framebuffer. I wouldn't be surprised if the audio was passed straight through, which means the bandwidth needed would be very small.
-
Who would have thought that people might want there game console to also surf the web and check email and stream video? Darn, why didn't I think of that...oh wait! I did! I did!
Sega did, too. No matter how many times console manufacturers try to make mutifunction devices, only the games sell the systems.
Something has to change. It seems that it's the A1 that has to change.
I agree, which is why I've hated the AmigaOne since DayOne. Using proporitary hardwarewhich is several years old and built for running games is hardly the answer.
Eyetech can design the "GBA Player"-like addon that will give you IDE ports and the like... One without a 'DMA bug'.
How much will that cost to design, test, certify, and manufacture? Even a simple PCB for an A1200 may cost several hundred to materialize. Are you considering this when you spew prices?
There's a reason why the console is so cheap. After so many years of plastering boards together with spit and chewing gum, I'm not sure Amigans really want to hack together lots of extra hardware.
All I can say is if you don't support this topic then why bother posting in it?
Because we're all tired of your fanboy B.S. and the fact you keep bumping your own thread just to keep yourself in our faces. This thread isn't long because lots of people are interested -- it's because it's friggin' old.
Hyperion doesn't want cheap hardware, or else the buggy MIA board would never have been chosen in the first place, and they would have used off-the-shelf hardware which is far better suited for expansion. Nintendo would never agree to sell themselves cheap to support a dead computer with no real plan for the future. Amiga doesn't care about OS4. Developers would have to pay for their tools if Nintendo was officially involved. Code written for Gecko would not run on other PPC devices without porting or re-compilation.
You're also basing your prices on hardware that's either bought used on E-Bay, or several years old. That's not a good way to build a profitable market. Nintendo would see that right away if Amiga proposed the idea.
OS4 on GameCube will not happen. Let it go.
I am on my way to having a GC-Linux setup.
I thought you said you had no interest in Linux. Shouldn't you give Linux a test-drive on your own computer before gearing up to run a raw kernel with limited functionality on your 'Cube?
How can you release a product where using the ethernet port and IDE at the same time can randomly cause data corruption? It's Russian Roulette. And it looks like it's the hardware that needs changing. Change it.
Well, a second option is to not use IDE devices at all. That would make the AmigaOne work very much like a GameCube. :-)
-
Waccoon wrote:
Eyetech can design the "GBA Player"-like addon that will give you IDE ports and the like... One without a 'DMA bug'.
How much will that cost to design, test, certify, and manufacture? Even a simple PCB for an A1200 may cost several hundred to materialize. Are you considering this when you spew prices?
If I can buy a full PC motherboard for $50, and a GBA Player for $50, I don't see why this couldn't be reasonable in that price range either. A PC motherboard (afterall) includes parrallel, serial, IDE and USB ports...not to mention alot of other stuff that wouldn't be needed on the GC (cpu socket, on-board sound, onboard ethernet, ram sockets, etc ...)
All I can say is if you don't support this topic then why bother posting in it?
Because we're all tired of your fanboy B.S. and the fact you keep bumping your own thread just to keep yourself in our faces. This thread isn't long because lots of people are interested -- it's because it's friggin' old.
LOL, the main anti-topic troll strikes again!
Hyperion doesn't want cheap hardware, or else the buggy MIA board would never have been chosen in the first place, and they would have used off-the-shelf hardware which is far better suited for expansion. Nintendo would never agree to sell themselves cheap to support a dead computer with no real plan for the future. Amiga doesn't care about OS4. Developers would have to pay for their tools if Nintendo was officially involved. Code written for Gecko would not run on other PPC devices without porting or re-compilation.
How do you know what Hyperion wants? I think what they want is a working/reliable target platform with an eager user base.
You're also basing your prices on hardware that's either bought used on E-Bay, or several years old. That's not a good way to build a profitable market. Nintendo would see that right away if Amiga proposed the idea.
I gave new prices originally. I have bought used goods because it makes sense. Actually, the only thing I've bought used was the ethernet adapter.
OS4 on GameCube will not happen. Let it go.
Instead of trying to convince me to let it go, why don't you just go away?
I am on my way to having a GC-Linux setup.
I thought you said you had no interest in Linux. Shouldn't you give Linux a test-drive on your own computer before gearing up to run a raw kernel with limited functionality on your 'Cube?
I have no interest or like for Windows but use it everyday. Besides, seeing as how a site I maintain is running on a linux server that a friend and business partner set up. I am forced (in a way) to use it. Actually, I am not fond of running XAMPP on my Windows machine ontop of everything else...so I was thinking of using the GC as an Apache server running MySQL and PHP. I am working on the database end of a project we are involved in together. Also, he also wants me to learn how to set up a linux server in order to help him in other areas.
Also, the newest version of the GC-Linux port supports network drives.
Well, a second option is to not use IDE devices at all. That would make the AmigaOne work very much like a GameCube. :-)
Or you could have just bought a gamecube and saved $800. :-)
-
If I can buy a full PC motherboard for $50, and a GBA Player for $50, I don't see why this couldn't be reasonable in that price range either.
Hahaha! Ask a PCB design company to give you a quote. :-)
LOL, the main anti-topic troll strikes again!
If you had called this thread "OS4 on GameCube", it wouldn't have survived this long. If you were more open-minded to other platforms besides just Nintendo, I wouldn't call you a fanboy, either.
I think what they want is a working/reliable target platform with an eager user base.
Given all the bugs and technical issues in the MIA design, an x86 PC would have been far more reliable. People are so focused on PPC that they fail to realize how much the rest of the system matters.
I gave new prices originally.
You mean like this?
"used gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60"
Instead of trying to convince me to let it go, why don't you just go away?
That's difficult when you keep bumping your own thread so much just to tell us the latest round of unconfirmed Nintendo rumors and how much each accessory cost you on E-Bay.
Or you could have just bought a gamecube and saved $800.
Correction: $800 minus the cost of the GameCube, the accessories, the cost of the OS, Nintendo licenses, profit margin, tech support, the IDE controller add-on that doesn't exist...
-
in beta... Again it boils down to being able to release a stable product.
I was refering to the "fact" that OS 4 is allready running on other hardware then the A1 because of your are just waiting for it to crash and burn before they release OS4 on another platform. line. That OS4 is beta has nothing to do with that.
Anyway, most OS4 Beta users think is ready for release.
-
I gave both the new price of $99 and the use price of $60 at EB. Classic troll misquote... An ethernet adapter is $35 new, I think I paid $26 or $29. Wow. The point is, as is the topic - REAL CHEAP. Stick with it sometime.
-
seer wrote:
in beta... Again it boils down to being able to release a stable product.
I was refering to the "fact" that OS 4 is allready running on other hardware then the A1 because of your are just waiting for it to crash and burn before they release OS4 on another platform. line. That OS4 is beta has nothing to do with that.
Anyway, most OS4 Beta users think is ready for release.
Guess what, the A1 just crashed and burned. :-D
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15819
-
lou_dias wrote:
Like I've stated before, Nintendo has stuck with ATI and ATI will take care of Nintendo
Actually, the Gamecubes GPU was designed by ArtX (who were later aquired by ATi)! Nintendo did have a strong relationship with ArtX, going back to the N64 days.
http://www.answers.com/topic/project-revolution
So there's really no loyalty toward ATi on Nintendo's behalf and probably less in the other direction. I'm sure ATi are more than happy to have the business of two of the three console players though.
-
@coldfish
Yes, that's well known but it wasn't a relationship that soured over time like MS & NVidia. Nintendo is using a dual-core ATI RN520 with 16MB of eDRAM created by a separate development team than the 360 chip. The second core includes some proprietary Nintendo stuff, i.e. the 'N' in 'RN'. Also, a source that has yet to be wrong states that Nintendo's online community plans surpass that of XBox Live 360.
Also, rumor has it that Nintendo will speed up load times on discs my spining the read heads instead of the disc.
also more juice...
Silicon Knights is not developing for the Nintendo Revolution right now. They will show off some Xbox 360 games at E3; I can confirm that. Matt saw the game, and he knows what they are up to. Once he is able to talk about it, he will reveal his information to you.
Like I said, I know as much about Resident Evil 5 as you do. I would guess it is going to be a current generation game. If Capcom could have it ready for the holidays (to combat the Xbox 360), it would come out then. But that’s just my own speculation (and hope; RE4 is amazing).
I can confirm that Nintendo is currently working on many Revolution titles. Most are just in the planning stages, but I have seen video of seven. I’m sure at least three or four of these games will be at E3 in video form. Perhaps more; we will see at E3. Outside of our game, there are six 3rd party games that I have heard of. As I mentioned earlier, Square Enix (happy now?) is developing a new game for the Revolution. EA, Sega, Zoonami, Namco, and Activision are currently working on games.
3rd party information:
EA is playing around with the Revolution’s capibilities, implementing them into another Madden game. This isn’t really news though. From what I’ve heard, they are really going out of their way to make this more than just a port. Voice controls are being used to the max in this title. Calling out audibles will be used this way. The wireless capibilities of the system are also going to be used. Like I said, there will be no reason to buy Madden for the Xbox 360 when the Revolution version comes out.
Sega is developing three games for the Revolution that should be at E3. I’m not going to reveal too much on what they are up to for obvious reasons. The three games I listed does not include the game we are developing for them. You will be very suprised at what they are doing. I’m sure you have heard of the Xbox 360 title Condemned that they are working on. This game is something that many wouldn’t expect Sega to make; you won’t expect what you will see at E3. The other game they have is a typical, quirky Sega game. It’s very interesting in the sense that it uses all the system’s capibilities.
Zoonami has already given out some hints on what they are working on. I have always felt that Sam Fisher is a much better character than Solid Snake. Zoonami just might have some characters that are better than both of them.
Namco is working on a Revolution game, but I don’t have details on it. I am sure that it is not a Soul Caliber III port. I don’t see why they just won’t add online play and Link and Ganon to the game and release it as a launch title. That would be a very smart move.
Activision is working on some ports for the Revolution. You will see what they have for the Xbox 360 at E3. At least one of these games will be ported to the Revolution for its launch.
On 1st party information:
Like I said, I have seen seven Nintendo titles, some of which will be at E3. When the DS was launced, it had one sub par 1st party game. This will not be the case with the Revolution’s launch. If they were to release all the games I’ve seen at launch, it would easily be the best launch ever for a console.
I can confirm that Nintendo is working on a new, orignal Mario game. In my opinion, the last few Miyamoto games havn’t been that interesting. This will change with this game. Like Mario 64 for the N64, this game will introduce all of the capibilities of the console. It will use the pressure sensitive controls mainly, but the voice controls as well as gyroscopic controls will be used as well. From what I saw, this game will use mini games to introduce many of these schemes. All of these mini games could be released as stand alone games.
A new Super Smash Bros. Melee is in the works as well. This game will demonstrate the online functions of the Revolution. Nintendo has added many new things into the game, included a deeper combat system. Many more special moves are included as well as some very cool suprises. The levels will include some destructible environments, and the characters will be fully customizable. Want to play as Mario in his 80’s outfit? Or would you prefer the 90’s look? It’s your choice. The most innovative part of the game is the different modes. In previous games, you were allowed to play in giant mode, metal mode, small mode, etc. That has changed. You will be able to choose to play in a “Paper” mode (a la Paper Mario), a cel shaded mode (Wind Waker), or Viewtiful Joe-esque mode.
As I said earlier, Retro is working on a Halo killer. This game is going to be one of the best games at E3. In my opinion, StarCraft was the best RTS ever. This game is going to use some similar ideas. In most FPS, you play as a hero trying to save the day. In Retro’s game, they allow you to choose which storyline you want to play, just like StarCraft allows you to play as Terran, Zerg, etc. Biological weapons will play a major part in the game. Imagine fighting in a chemical plant, where toxics are stored everywhere. By shooting them, you emit the toxic. If you get hit by this stuff, many different things may happen. For instance, you may lose sight on the screen, your controls might be inverted or slowed down, etc. Or, if your character gets the fever, the controller might get hot. Very hot. The alien races are very interesting also. You will be able to switch to 3rd person in order to move faster (similar to running in Odd World: Stranger’s Wrath). You will be able to “impregnate” human players by grabbing on to them for a certain amount of time. This will implant a NPC in them, which will burst out at your command, instantly killing the human player. You will then be able to use voice control to command the NPC.
Nintendo will not be out done at E3 tomorrow (actually today, it's after midnight here already).
-
Nintendo has alot of money, and finally they are throwing it around. As Reggie stated once, Nintendo actually paid for the development kits for the DS and sent them to certain developers. They are doing the same thing with the Revolution. Many aquisitions are going to be revealed at E3.
I would say the development world is very excited about the next generation of consoles. As I talk to people, I get the sense that everyone wants to explore this new territory. Everyone wants to make the next Super Mario Bros. With respects to the Revolution, there was some hesitation to develop for it. Now, everything is different. As you all know, the development costs for the Xbox 360 are very high. The same can be said of the PS3, although it is easier to develop for than the Xbox 360. But with the Revolution, everything is cheaper and easier to navigate. All the features I mentioned greatly expand what we can do with games. People are looking forward to this machine, don’t worry.
A new Wave Race is in development, and it should be at E3. Many people wrote off the Gamecube as a weak, baby console, but the Wave Race game on it proves that it is very capible. The water effects in that game are amazing; they still look very good today. With the new Zelda and the water in it, Nintendo is again showing how good they are at what they do. But I think this Wave Race is going to top everything out there in respects to graphics. It is going to be the GT of water racing games. You will be able to around in many different levels, all of which will sport many obstacles for the player. For instance, one early design I saw had a racer avoiding enormous cruise ships, which could destroy your speeder if you got too close to it.
One of the more interesting games I saw was a totally new IP. Outside of Geist, Nintendo has never really worked on a “mature” game. This all is going to change. They are working on a 3rd person action game that is very, very interesting. When Ninja Gaiden came out, I remember hearing that Aonuma was really into the game. I found this very interesting, but I didn’t take much interest into the story. Later, one of my co-workers showed me what he was working on. Nintendo, along with Hideo Kojima, are working on a futuristic action game. There is a reason why Kojima isn’t directing the next Metal Gear game. He’s been working with Nintendo on this game. In many ways, it reminded me of a apocolyptic, futuristic version of Zelda and Ninja Gaiden mixed. The earliest ideas I heard involved a cult of humans (humans are near extinction) who are menacing a cybernetic country. In the game, humans were almost wiped out by a race of higher beings, who then created cybernetic humans to take their place as rulers of the planet (not earth). The main character is one of the synthetic robots. Very, very interesting. I only got to see this one time, and I pray it will be at E3.
Camelot is not working on a new Golden Sun game. They are not woring on the DS either. Before I left Nintendo, they began working on the Revolution. They are working on creating a new RPG to combat Final Fantasy, which is strange. Square Enix is working on an RPG for the Revolution’s launch, so I don’t think Camelot’s game will be a launch title. If Square Enix leaves Sony (which is not a big if), they could possibly rejoin with Nintendo. Or they could wind up with Microsoft, but I doubt that.
Nintendo is really doing something special with the Revolution. This is a system that will appeal to all gamers, and developers will find it pretty easy to work on. I think it is going to be very successful, especially in Japan. The Gamecube has been a failure over seas. The Revolution should do much better, mainly due to the fact that it will correct many of the mistakes made this generation. There will not be a sub par Luigi game at launch. The system isn’t going to resemble a purple lunch box either. But in my mind 3rd party suport was the biggest reason the Gamecube failed. I don’t see any reason why developers would shun the Revolution. If it is able to sell, it will be supported. Like I said earlier, it will have the greatest launch titles ever seen on a console.
Like I said earlier, Nintendo is watching Sony very closely. They do not think that the Xbox 360 is going to be a competitor next generation. As many of you have probally heard, Microsoft is going to launch the Xbox 360 in November. Nintendo has plans on releasing the new Zelda game on whatever date Microsoft chooses. I have also heard rumors that Sony is planning on doing something similar. Apparantly, they are going to release Final Fantasy 12 in Japan to combat the Xbox 360 launch. I actually think there is some truth behind this rumor, but I could be wrong. I think Nintendo is making a mistake by not taking the Xbox 360 seriously.
Despite being the most financially successful company this generation, many people feel that Nintendo is close to their demise. There is no denying that the Gamecube underpreformed this generation, and many gamers have lost faith in Nintendo. But I am confident this is going to change at E3. Last year, all gamers were exicited beyond belief after Nintendo showed the Zelda trailer. A few months after that event, the spirit of optimism began to die down as Nintendo fell back into their old ways. At GDC this year, the optimism was rekindled again. When E3 closes its doors later this year, we are going to see a level of glee and happiness that hasn’t been seen in many years. I would dare say that most if not all gamers love Nintendo deep down, even if they do not show it. These feelings will be brought to the surface after E3.
I doubt the Revolution will use a keyboard. I can confirm that it will not use a mouse though. The gyroscopic functionality of the system allows for a level of control similar to that of a mouse. This function will be used to navigate the Revolution’s “homepage”. If you have ever used a mouse with gyroscopic technology, you will be familiar with this.
The fact is that the Revolution is going to steal the show at E3. The Nintendo Revolution will use wireless controllers. The controller will incude gyroscopic and pressure sensitive capabilities. The Revolution will also have a very advanced for of voice control; a headset will allow gamers to use this function. The Nintendo Revolution will also contain a very detailed online service that will allow gamers to chat and play with each other. Nintendo will use this service to provide previews, demos, and exclusive information with gamers.
-
Without a credible source, your quote sounds an aweful lot like the same old fanboy hyperbole and heresay.
-reference?
-
Disclaimer: I copied that text from the Broken Saints Blog. Specifically the poster Aries. He has yet to be wrong.
Supposedly the controller will be able to heat up...
-
All will be answered in a few hours...
-
Supposedly the controller will be able to heat up...
LOL! a -People vs Nintendo- class action in the making... :-D
-
lou, nobody on this forum has the AOS4 source. Nobody on this forum has Hyperion's ear. Posting on a forum isn't going to change anything.
Only a business plan with $$$ is going to get Hyperion to do ANYTHING. They wouldn't be able to do anything without money in the first place.
You could put a bounty up and I doubt you could raise $100.
Pitch this plan to Hyperion. When it falls on deaf ears, drop it.
Amiga is just a hobby platform these days. If you know how to code you could port AROS to the Game Cube, perhaps creating an alternative to the official platform's dismal state of affairs. A cheap platform with a free OS which isn't subject to a bunch of untrustworthy companies which are liable to die when the wind changes.
-
strobe wrote:
lou, nobody on this forum has the AOS4 source. Nobody on this forum has Hyperion's ear. Posting on a forum isn't going to change anything.
Only a business plan with $$$ is going to get Hyperion to do ANYTHING. They wouldn't be able to do anything without money in the first place.
You could put a bounty up and I doubt you could raise $100.
Pitch this plan to Hyperion. When it falls on deaf ears, drop it.
Amiga is just a hobby platform these days. If you know how to code you could port AROS to the Game Cube, perhaps creating an alternative to the official platform's dismal state of affairs. A cheap platform with a free OS which isn't subject to a bunch of untrustworthy companies which are liable to die when the wind changes.
Yeah, doesn't it seem like anytime a deal is struck somebody goes out of business?
I will look into AROS at some point...
I just feel that Hyperion may want some return on investment and the only way for that to happen is to release OS4 on some platform...
I mean if Hyperion decided that OS 4 was to be ported to the GC and no future A1 edition would be released, then everyone who would have bought an A1 (but hasn't yet) will now buy a GC to run OS4 because they WANT OS4, which was the only reason to buy an A1 in the first place. Well, the A1 is dead. I guess we will have to wait and see for an announcement from Hyperion. How many people actually have A1's? Maybe they saw the writing on the wall and have already begun a port...but to what platform?
-
PowerBook? :banana:
-
strobe wrote:
PowerBook? :banana:
Yeah, well, everyone's gonna want it for whatever they already own...right...
-
I'm not going to buy a desktop ever again, unless it is a server in the closet which I'll never lay hands on.
If I want to use Amiga SW I'll use UAE on a laptop. Leave desktops for cubicle torture. I don't care if it has four G5s and costs $1k
-
My god, this thread is still going :-o :-o :-o
Why don't you all just buy a Mac and be done with it, you know you want to :lol: :-P ;-)
-
I mean if Hyperion decided that OS 4 was to be ported to the GC
Hyperion has nothing to decide about where Amiga OS4 is going to be ported to. At best they can make a suggestion to Amiga Inc.
Well, the A1 is dead.
They said MOS was dead to... It's still being developed. So MAI might be gone, no official news. And yet the same old story..
-
Pic of Revolution's GC controller and memory card interface. Seems like mounting it horizontally would work better in this situation.
http://media.cube.ign.com/articles/615/615030/img_2795077.html
-
Mac? Did someone say Mac? I hate Mac's and as for a Gamecube Amiga...."sigh" more chance of a Coldfire board for the CD32 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
ok how about on PS3 then... HyperionMP dropped some hints as does this article:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/09/news_6127219.html
funny how this guy from Sony re-itterates what I've been saying about NETWORK drives...
and the guys at gc-linux.org have a DVDplayer library now so you will be able to burn 3" dvd's and have the GC read it.
-
lou_dias wrote:
ok how about on PS3 then....
IBM has 2 other cell customers, so far then..... 1 making the PS3 (Sony of course), 1 using cell for military targeting systems and finally 1 using cell for medical applications. As yet no details on who the non Sony customers are seem to be forthcomming from IBM.
If cell is versatile enough for these applications, who knows? PS3 Amiga? If you consider that sony are OCPA members too it could make some sense I guess. :-?
-
@ALL
I am officially no longer a Nintendo "fanboy"!
http://cube.ign.com/articles/624/624200p1.html
-
Ok, hopefully at the end of the month my finances will be in order and I can make some purchases to move forward here...
there's an SD card loader for the GC now. $14.95
http://www.jandaman.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=gcsdgecko
www.gc-linux.org have moved forward with the DVD-drive ATAPI api..and now have a mini-media player (mplayer)
and this: http://www.gamecubecase.com/
for the people who need to burn 4+GB DVD's for console hacking...like 1.8GB isn't enough for most things...
nice tutorial here: http://www.consolejunky.com/gamecube-guides/sdload/
Why bring back this old topic you ask?
- A good CELL compiler is years away.
- Newer (next-gen) consoles are still not going to be cost-effective.
- A1 is dead and the A1-micro is "je ne sais qua"
- the GC is "well-known" now from a hardware point of view, next-gens are not...AT ALL.
- Nintendo Revolution may not even have HD output so the GC will have superior resolution (854x480p @ 16:9 mode) vs 640x480i
-
bloodline wrote:
If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
How have you made that connection?
Heh, doesn't work in reverse either. :-)
-
Well you can put linux on it, it just isn´t very useful. :lol:
-
Ack, just realized how old the post I replied to was, that was probably beaten to death since then.
-
billt wrote:
Ack, just realized how old the post I replied to was, that was probably beaten to death since then.
Convince Foxconn(WinFast graphic card fame)(ODM of Apple’s Mac-Mini) and ASUS(everybody should already know this ODM)(ODM of Apple’s Powerbook) to release bare bone PPC based products.
-
http://www.qoobchip.com/index.php
Things just keep getting easier...
-
lou_dias wrote:
http://www.qoobchip.com/index.php
Things just keep getting easier...
So does this thing allow you to burn a GC ISO to a mini DVD+R and play it on your gamecube?
-
>Convince Foxconn(WinFast graphic card fame)(ODM of Apple’s
>Mac-Mini) and ASUS(everybody should already know this
>ODM)(ODM of Apple’s Powerbook) to release bare bone PPC based products.
Brush up on your marketing and speaking skills, put together a decent business proposal describing how they can make money at this, and make yourself some appointments with these guys to discuss it with them. And remember, these people are accustomed to selling in quantities of hundreds of thousands, not hundreds or maybe thousands. These companies don't read Amiga forums, so you have to take this stuff to them.
Discussing ideas here is fun and all, but won't get anything done or started.
Keep in mind that they will want to know how they will make big bucks on such a thing, they aren't looking for a charitable cause to support. Who will pay any OS4 licensing fees? Why should they pay it? How many units can they sell, and at what retail, and at what cost to them?
If you don't know how much components or licenses cost, you do not have a business proposal. If you do not have a good idea of how many units they can sell, you do not have a business proposal. If you do not have a good reason for them to pay any OS licensing fees that will result in big returns to them, then you do not have a business proposal.
Once you've got answers to the sorts of things an MBA will ask of you, then you can start talking to the businessmen who make such decisions. Such discussions have already shown that no one else here is going to do that for you, so if you aren't up to doing something like this, then the idea is toast before you discuss it here.
Now, get to work! :)
-
mdma wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
http://www.qoobchip.com/index.php
Things just keep getting easier...
So does this thing allow you to burn a GC ISO to a mini DVD+R and play it on your gamecube?
The mod chip will allow you to play MP3 files, it includes an MP3 player.
The Linux package (www.gc-linux.org) has ATAPI DVDROM drivers now that will read a full 5" DVD. If you open your gamecube, you will notice that the drive head can span a full 5" CD/DVD disc. However when it stops at the outer limit of a 3" by default when powered down. So I assume reading the extra inch of radius is just a programming issue which they have overcome. This leads me to believe that the only difference in hardware, as far as the drives go, between the Panasonic Q and the Gamecube is the default stop/start position of the drive head...and that may just be a ROM issue... Hence the case mods that allow for 5" discs to be used only require a case mod and appropriate SOFTWARE and no expensive DRIVE change. Right now you can get the case mod and qoob chip for $75 as a bundle.
So much for the propriety 3" disc issue...
Never the less, how many standalone Amiga apps couldn't fit on a 1.8GB miniDVD disc? Most don't even fill up a 650MB cd. To me the disc size/capacity was NEVER an issue. But the hatemongers needed something to chime about.
-
Viper, Qoob, and Ninja mods have been out for a long time. There is no software issue (or hardware) to overcome to load full size DVD-Rs other than the standard streaming problems which plague certain games (note: illegal use). If you take the case off, you can use full size DVD-Rs. Mini DVD-R is hit and miss in quality, and most can't be read without adjusting the GC laser.
How this will help the OS4 port, it won't. There's still a lack of a local writeable filesystem. Things like SDLoad aren't usuable or fast enough to be used for local storage. And, no other HD exists.
True, the Linux is progressing. But, I'd say it's about where Xbox Linux was 1-2 years ago (as well as being slower, and having less supported hardware). Sorry, it's still not even a viable computing platform for Linux, much less OS4.
-
Well, the Linux distribution not includes support for a network drive file system. So while you won't have ATA133 speeds, it's fast enough for launching applications. That's how all my business apps ran at a company I was working for from 1999-2002.
For a typical user running browsing, email, word processing and games (CD/DVD based) it more than accomplishes this task. It would run circles around an '060 based amiga and a Blizzrd/Phase5 PPC'd Amiga once the apps were in memory. Eventually drivers will be written for the adapter I own that gives me a ps2 keyboard/mouse connector into a controller port. A keyboard already works on games like Phantasy Star Online 1-3 and a couple of other games released for the 'Cube.
For someone looking to run OS4 and some games and surf the web, it's got the power. Much more power than any classic & expanded "real" Amiga.
The nice thing about the qoob chip is that is has 2Mbit of flash memory for a custom bios that can, for instance, boot an OS from the network, SD card or DVD drive. It also give you a USB port. Ain't that nice.
-
Wow! I can't believe this thread is still going. I think I would rather see OS4 on an XBOX 360. Anyone willing to give it a go? I would be willing to do graphics for that free. I'm an artist however, not a programmer, so I couldn't code it myself. Of course, the 360's not out yet, but not long to wait. :inquisitive:
-
That's fine about the 360, it's PPC but an unknown platform. The GC is well known and could be done faster and offers a potential simple upgrade to the Revolution hardware....
Also, if you read all the 'next-gen' news on the gaming sites, some developers have said that they may only use one core out of the 3 in the 360 because no one knows how to take advantage of it yet...which would make it only twice as powerful as the current XBOX. I'll try to find the article...
-
after a bit of searching:
http://www.ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833
http://www.ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3532
Nintendo's claims of a system that is 3-4 times more powerful than the Gamecube not seem reasonable and possibly better than the PS3 and XBOX 360. If they stay with a dual-core OoO executing cpu and provide a dedicated sound processor (unlike the 360 and PS3 who will use a thread or dedicate an SPE), you may be surprsied afterall on who has the most powerful system.
From the desktop OS perspective, an in-order cpu (360) is far from ideal.
-
lou_dias wrote:
after a bit of searching:
http://www.ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833
http://www.ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3532
Nintendo's claims of a system that is 3-4 times more powerful than the Gamecube not seem reasonable and possibly better than the PS3 and XBOX 360. If they stay with a dual-core OoO executing cpu and provide a dedicated sound processor (unlike the 360 and PS3 who will use a thread or dedicate an SPE), you may be surprsied afterall on who has the most powerful system.
From the desktop OS perspective, an in-order cpu (360) is far from ideal.
I am always open minded with new consoles. I will give it a read.
Any chance of Amiga DE on the DS to go with the OS4 Gamecube? That would kick ass!
-
Tripitaka wrote:
I am always open minded with new consoles. I will give it a read.
Any chance of Amiga DE on the DS to go with the OS4 Gamecube? That would kick ass!
Just picture a Revolution port that allows downloading applications to the DS! Now you'd have portable Amiga apps running on Nintendo DS hardware. Now that would be Revolutionary.
-
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=510&Itemid=2
about coding these new systems...
if Nintendo stays with an OoO REAL G5, it will be potent
-
I read the article above. :inquisitive: Interestng stuff indeed :inquisitive:. Being the owner of quite a few consoles at the momment I wonder what to do with them when they get replaced by newer stuff. So far my N64(with V64) and Dreamcast still get used but with 2 gamecubes, XBOX and GBA things could get a bit silly come yet another generation. I have 2 NES, a powermac and 2 CD32's in my loft as it is. It's not a space issue with me, I just need to find a role for my hardware to make it worth keeping.
The Mac I intend fixing up for video (it has the cards but needs a new hard drive or two) and I may have a role for one of my CD32s soon .
So what's my point?
Well I guess what I am saying is that 2 Amiga OS Gamecubes would find a place alongside my A1200 very nicely when the revolution comes out......just one question:
ARE WE ALL JUST TALKING OR IS SOMEONE GOING TO GIVE IT A TRY? :huh:
-
Well, AROS is the best we can get without any support from Hyperion. I couldn't find any PPC port of AROS but since the source is available, anything is possible.
Since the qoob mod chip has 2MB of flash memory for custom BIOS's...I'm sure Hyperion could get there 'UBOOT'(I think that's what it's called) BIOS code ported to it with a quickness. But would they... Heck, didn't they open source that? Now if they only would open-source the OS4 HAL...
I already own 1 of these: http://www.mayflash.com/gc/gc020/GC%20020-1.asp
Another would let me plug in both a keyboard and mouse...however, the qoob chip PRO version includes a USB port...so there are possibilities there as well.
-
After some expierences with linux and netbsd on amiga hardware I believe that I have more amiga feeling with AROS or WINUAE on a stupid PC than the wrong OS on a classic hardware.
So I'll try to start support AROS. The last status update looks quite good and we need a open system with source code access to adapt it to any future hardware, because hardware is changing very fast and it took a long time to AOS4.0 which is bundled with a good but rare hardware. AROS will run on millions of machines and so the comunity can grow again :-)
-
Great news!
I just found out I am refinancing on Friday so I will have loads of disposable income. I will be ordering the qoob chip and case mod bundle shortly as well as SDLoad card reader.
I'd like to flash to qoob chip with the UBOOT BIOS. UBOOT can be ported to Gamecube hardware just like it was ported to A1 hardware. Maybe the GC-linux people can get this done. It's better than the PSOload hack.
SAMBA could be used to access network hard drives. Hopefully someone would write a USB port driver that accesses the qoob chip's USB port.
No VIA DMA/IDE bug
no usb stack bug
no overpriced extremely outdated hardware
and an easy upgrade path to Nintendo Revolution hardware. Not to mention Revolution being able to offer downloadable Amiga (ported) apps running on the Nintendo DS...and that feature is already built-in to the DS.
Picture Super Skidmarks ported to use Revolution as a server and have 8 Nintendo DS's running Super Skidmarks and racing against each other! on-line!
-
>no overpriced extremely outdated hardware
...
> I just found out I am refinancing on Friday so I will have loads of disposable income.
You have to refinance (I'm guessing mortgage) in order to get this stuff?! Wow, I'm sure there's a huge market for running AmigaOS on such expensively hacked hardware. ;) ;)
>and an easy upgrade path to Nintendo Revolution hardware
For games developers perhaps. If you take away their OS, is the hardware register compatible with GameCube hardware, or will new drivers have to be written? I'd expect the latter. Can we get proper documentation for both to develop drivers for? Can we get CPU docs to properly support those, to avoid compatibility issues like the 750GX in uA1 did initially?
-
lou_dias wrote:
I'd like to flash to qoob chip with the UBOOT BIOS. UBOOT can be ported to Gamecube hardware just like it was ported to A1 hardware. Maybe the GC-linux people can get this done. It's better than the PSOload hack.
This won't work. The Quub firmware is not a generic BIOS like UBOOT, but a specific application for bypassing Nintendos copy protection.
SAMBA could be used to access network hard drives.
Why Samba? Samba has a lot of overhead, and will really show how slow the 10mb/s half duplex NIC in the GCN is. It would be much better to use NFS.
Hopefully someone would write a USB port driver that accesses the qoob chip's USB port.
That's not what the USB port is for. The qoob is a USB device, not a controller. The usb port is only there for programming the qoob chip.
No VIA DMA/IDE bug
No IDE at all. In fact, no usable re-writable local filesystem at all.
no usb stack bug
Again, no USB, so no bug. Hmm...
no overpriced extremely outdated hardware
I'll give you that much, the GCN is cheap. But, it's definately outdated.
and an easy upgrade path to Nintendo Revolution hardware. Not to mention Revolution being able to offer downloadable Amiga (ported) apps running on the Nintendo DS...and that feature is already built-in to the DS.
Picture Super Skidmarks ported to use Revolution as a server and have 8 Nintendo DS's running Super Skidmarks and racing against each other! on-line!
Huh? So, write a new game, add multiplayer, and it's related to Amiga or the old game how? You need to start checking your facts a bit more. It's fun to read your sometimes insane rambling but I'd hate it if you really spent real money trying to make the GCN a computer. It just isn't usable as one. If you are serious about getting a <$200 Linux box then you can pick up an older computer that will do just fine.
-
Nice to see someone thinking about how to make this work. Forgive my ignorance here but what's the situation as far as AmigaDE on the DS?
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Nice to see someone thinking about how to make this work. Forgive my ignorance here but what's the situation as far as AmigaDE on the DS?
Just append the two letters you forgot ...AD :lol:
-
I was asking a serious question. Is there a way to run DE on a DS? :hammer:
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Is there a way to run DE on a DS? :hammer:
Apart from ripping the guts out and replacing them with a PocketPC PDA, or paying Amiga Inc $$$$ to port it, nope.
Why do you want DE anyway?
-
I see, I take it that's not happening then.
Doobrey wrote:
Why do you want DE anyway?
Just Curious. You see, many years ago (about 16) I knew pretty much everything anyone (save developers) could know about the Amiga at the time. However, my little 'miggy sat dorment for about 9 of those years (shame on me). Now, after years of hibernation I return to my old friend and learn anew. In short, I wont know if I don't ask.....but as you mentioned it, what is the point of DE? I know what it does and understand what it could be (elate is pretty cool), however, it seems to me Fleecy is happy selling very average puzzle games to mobile/pocket pc users. This adds nothing to the Amiga as I see it so I guess the question is: Why would any Amigan want DE anyway?
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
I'd like to flash to qoob chip with the UBOOT BIOS. UBOOT can be ported to Gamecube hardware just like it was ported to A1 hardware. Maybe the GC-linux people can get this done. It's better than the PSOload hack.
This won't work. The Quub firmware is not a generic BIOS like UBOOT, but a specific application for bypassing Nintendos copy protection.
[/quote]
qoob supports booting from a flashed bios, I'm not replacing the qoob's firmware but taking advantage of it's features. Here's a list: http://www.qoobchip.com/gcm.html
SAMBA could be used to access network hard drives.
Why Samba? Samba has a lot of overhead, and will really show how slow the 10mb/s half duplex NIC in the GCN is. It would be much better to use NFS.
Show me proof that it's half duplexed as you say. I think you are making up your own facts again. Also, NFS is already supported on gc-linux.org's linux package. If AOS does support that already so much the better.
Hopefully someone would write a USB port driver that accesses the qoob chip's USB port.
That's not what the USB port is for. The qoob is a USB device, not a controller. The usb port is only there for programming the qoob chip.
[/quote]
if the bios code can be patched (which it can) and the code to access the usb port is in the bios, then any app can be written to do the same thing.
No VIA DMA/IDE bug
No IDE at all. In fact, no usable re-writable local filesystem at all.
again that's what NFS is for... Also, there is a memory card to usb adapter, not to mention a usb port courtesy of the qoob chip. So USB HD's, DVD burners, printers are all possible.
no usb stack bug
Again, no USB, so no bug. Hmm...
see my comments above about usb
no overpriced extremely outdated hardware
I'll give you that much, the GCN is cheap. But, it's definately outdated.
I'm perfectly happy with extremely underpriced slightly outdated hardware than that or PITA ultra out-dated classic hardware.
and an easy upgrade path to Nintendo Revolution hardware. Not to mention Revolution being able to offer downloadable Amiga (ported) apps running on the Nintendo DS...and that feature is already built-in to the DS.
Picture Super Skidmarks ported to use Revolution as a server and have 8 Nintendo DS's running Super Skidmarks and racing against each other! on-line!
Huh? So, write a new game, add multiplayer, and it's related to Amiga or the old game how? You need to start checking your facts a bit more. It's fun to read your sometimes insane rambling but I'd hate it if you really spent real money trying to make the GCN a computer. It just isn't usable as one. If you are serious about getting a <$200 Linux box then you can pick up an older computer that will do just fine.
excuse me... the key words there were 'picture' as in picture this...and 'port'. A port. And it is just a vision to realize possibilities...
It's just as much fun to read your grotesque ctitiques. :P
Maybe someday you will grow from adolescent to adult, eh? :))
-
billt wrote:
You have to refinance (I'm guessing mortgage) in order to get this stuff?! Wow, I'm sure there's a huge market for running AmigaOS on such expensively hacked hardware. ;) ;)
Well, it boils down to disposable income. I left my IT job in 2002 and just got back into the industry less than 2 months ago. I'm a VB.NET developer now (vs. VB6 and VFP6)...making half the money I was making before but it still beats what I was doing for the past 3 years...which was CRAP! The point is that now I can start experimenting.
Since you like writing ATI drivers ( :) ) why don't you check out gc-linux.org and write a driver for them guys.
>and an easy upgrade path to Nintendo Revolution hardware
For games developers perhaps. If you take away their OS, is the hardware register compatible with GameCube hardware, or will new drivers have to be written? I'd expect the latter. Can we get proper documentation for both to develop drivers for? Can we get CPU docs to properly support those, to avoid compatibility issues like the 750GX in uA1 did initially?
Hey, I'm just saying that it's easier, not easy. :) Atleast it's evolution vs. displacement.
-
> Since you like writing ATI drivers ( :) ) why don't you
> check out gc-linux.org and write a driver for them guys.
There's a number of reasons.
Time - I've got my day job, the driver thing, a rental property to keep up, I'm on the board of directors for a non-profit organization, and a couple other projects. There's only so many hours in the day, and I have to start saying no to things or I'll never finish anything for any of them. My day job can be quite demanding, and must take priority over anything else. You have no idea how much time or effort can be involved with this, I do, and I'm not up for it.
Documentation - I don't have any for hte Gamecube's chip. Just because ATI fabs it doesn't mean it has any relation whatsoever to Radeon. As I understand they bought the company that was designing this chip, so I have no reason to expect the registers are laid out even remotely the same as what I know about.
Licensing - it seems the Linux on Gamecube guys do not want any contributions from anyone that has the official Nintendo SDK or any official documentation from Nintendo. Nintendo's SDK/documentation NDAs probably do not allow implementing their secret stuff into open-source software. Seems these Linux guys are afraid that such a situation could be bad for the legality of the project. So proper documented support of anything there is actually unwanted, and I am not going to go to the extreme efforts to buy an logic analyzer (these can cost half as much as my house did!) and then spend enormous amounts of time probing around to try and figure out how things work.
There's other issues that I can't discuss.
Besides, I'd have to buy a Gamecube and all those addons for it, and I've got far higher priorities to spend money on than all that stuff.
> Atleast it's evolution vs. displacement.
That doesn't mean a driver for Gamecube will work on Revolution. For the games developers, the API may be the same, but for drivers hitting the hardware, the registers may not be. And with the Linux guys not wanting real NDAed documentation to pollute their legality, it'd be too much work and expense for me to bother finding out.
-
I can't believe this thread is still alive.
if the bios code can be patched (which it can) and the code to access the usb port is in the bios, then any app can be written to do the same thing.
The qoob is a USB slave and cannot be connected to another USB slave (like a keyboard or hard drive) no matter what kind of software is behind it. You need a USB host, which the qoob lacks.
I also don't see what the point is, unless you've managed to convince Amiga, Inc. to license OS 4 for the Gamecube. If you're going to just hack it to run unlicensed I can't imagine why you just wouldn't shoot for the Mac mini. It's relatively inexpensive and already has all the necessary stuff to be a proper computer.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still alive.
if the bios code can be patched (which it can) and the code to access the usb port is in the bios, then any app can be written to do the same thing.
The qoob is a USB slave and cannot be connected to another USB slave (like a keyboard or hard drive) no matter what kind of software is behind it. You need a USB host, which the qoob lacks.
I also don't see what the point is, unless you've managed to convince Amiga, Inc. to license OS 4 for the Gamecube. If you're going to just hack it to run unlicensed I can't imagine why you just wouldn't shoot for the Mac mini. It's relatively inexpensive and already has all the necessary stuff to be a proper computer.
OK, bear with me on the problems with it being a slave.
are you saying the the 2MB flashable memory shows up like a Removable drive on windows like plugging in a camera?
Also, I've seen usb keyboard that act as a usb hub. They offer usb ports right on the keyboard so I still don't see the limitation there. A serial bus supports I/O. In AND Out. Otherwise, plugging it in would never register with Windows that a device was plugged in.
Yes, the base Mac Mini is cheap ($499)...why would a windows user buy a Mac to be an Amiga? Also, porting issues aren't much different there. Since I already own a GC my costs for the BBA, ps/2 adapters, SD card reader and Qoob chip add up to $120. That's like buying 2 new and 1 used games. www.gcdev.com has homebrew downloadable games to justify the purchase. It's entertainment value for me right now just to see how far I can go. $499 is not entertaining. It's not bad, but I'd much rather spend that kind of money on a performance exhaust for my car, lol!
I'm trying to draw support for OS4 on Ninendo Gamecube and Revolution. OS3 is not an OS for today's user. MAC is losing ground and hopes to lower their entry costs to the platform by going to Intel hardware. Linux isn't a user-friendly OS either (vs. OS 3.x).
Amiga OS has potential if modernized. But it needs a low entry cost to appeal to anyone looking to try it out before making the switch from Windows.
Future versions of Microsoft Office products are going to use XML as the document standard. This will allow new (or old with a plugin) Amiga apps to interoperate with Office (Word, Excell, Powerpoint) rather easily. So common desktop applications for 99% of users will be possible.
Targeting the niche market as a target audience will always leave the platform as a niche machine. Let the core audience grow FIRST, then release niche products.
GC is a niche machine...blah blah blah...with a 20 million unit installed base... How many Amiga users do we have? Again if you have no mouse, no keyboard and no GC, you can have a GC and all the other stuff I mentioned for ~$216 with a $50 used GC at Gamestop. Heck for $99 you get a new GC with Super Smash Bros. Melee! That's only one of the greatest games ever made. has sold something like 3 million copies on the GC before this bundle...and I still don't own it.
-
>Also, I've seen usb keyboard that act as a usb hub. They
>offer usb ports right on the keyboard so I still don't see
>the limitation there.
But ultimately this keyboard/hub combo must plug into a USB host port on the PC. If you don't have a host port to plug this thing into the GameCube, then no one is in charge of things, and the slaves are not being bossed around to actually do anything. Plug a bunch of slaves into the same USB hub, and see how well they communicate with each other. Realize that a hub is not a host of its own, it requires a true host to be involved. Hubs don't have USB stack software or know what a camera or disk-on-key or printer or mouse or keyboard are or how to talk to each different type of device, it just directs traffic.
And if the qoob is only a USB slave, then thre simply may not be any connecting circuitry in the thing allowing the Gamecube to control it. It may only have some control logic to flash the ROM and nothing more. That's not enough to let your keyboard boss around the gamecube's currently running user interface. Have you asked the manufacturers of qoob if it has host capability so Linux can use USB peripherals?
>with a 20 million unit installed base
How many of these have your qoob and other gizmos? Of those, how many are willing to pay for OS4? Of the non-qoob Gamecube owners, how many are willing to buy all the extra hardware and also pay for OS4? Is the total number of can and willing to pay for OS4 enough to justify the time and effort required to make OS4 run on Gamecube? I've not seen a compelling argument that there is.
Finally, is Nintendo interested in such a thing? If yes, it'd be happening already. If no, then it's effectively prevented from happening, as why would Hyperion want to sell an "illegitimate" piece of software that Nintendo could bankrupt them over?
You idea could be fun for some of us as users, but I'm just trying to be realistic, considering the business environment involved.
-
lou_dias wrote:
OK, bear with me on the problems with it being a slave.
are you saying the the 2MB flashable memory shows up like a Removable drive on windows like plugging in a camera?
I'm sure it shows up as a device of some sort, probably just in Device Manager though. I doubt it would show up as a flash drive since that would imply a filesystem which firmware isn't likely to have.
Also, I've seen usb keyboard that act as a usb hub. They offer usb ports right on the keyboard so I still don't see the limitation there.
A USB keyboard with a hub is essentially just a hub with a keyboard attached to one of the ports.
A serial bus supports I/O. In AND Out. Otherwise, plugging it in would never register with Windows that a device was plugged in.
Yes there's bidirectional communication, but the USB protocol is host-centric. The USB host requests data from it's slaves and they send it, the opposite isn't possible.
Yes, the base Mac Mini is cheap ($499)...why would a windows user buy a Mac to be an Amiga?
Why would a Windows user buy a GC and all the requisite debris to run Amiga OS on it? Heck, even if they have a Gamecube why are they going to buy the rest of the stuff to turn it into a computer running some OS they've never even heard of?
Also, porting issues aren't much different there. Since I already own a GC my costs for the BBA, ps/2 adapters, SD card reader and Qoob chip add up to $120.
You forgot to add in the price of an SD card. A 2GB card costs ~$140 at newegg. I suppose you could go lower, but the lack of substantial local storage would be a nuisance. Sure there's networked volumes, but if someone has got a computer to share the volume why don't they just use that computer. Obviously things are different for your personal desires, but you seem to be suggesting that this kind of solution would have broad appeal. $120 + $140 + $99 (cost of gamecube) is $359. For $140 someone could buy a Mac Mini that would utterly destroy a GC computer performance-wise.
GC is a niche machine...blah blah blah...with a 20 million unit installed base...
But how many of those people have all the necessary other junk, a small percentage I'd wager. Most people aren't going to go and spend money on hardware for their game console so they can try some OS they've never heard of. You'd get more traction by making PearPC run OS 4.
-
billt wrote:
but I'm just trying to be realistic, considering the business environment involved.
So only the lawyers get rich, mmm..any lawyers out there prepared to chew the legal issues over for thier love of the Amiga? thought not.
-
I already own 2 SD cards. An 8MB and a 256MB.
Ok, so why doesn't Hyperion open source the HAL as well? Then it could get ported to recognize GC hardware independently of the OS then maybe someone could send them a compiled HAL with some headers and request an install with this HAL and sell that. Theoretically they never need to stay that the HAL is for the GC.
Then it could work on the Mac Mini as well...
@BillT
If I were an Amiga user and I could get OS4 on hardware that costs $200 or hardware that costs $900, what would be easier? I'll wager there are more Amigans with Gamecubes then there are Amigans with A1's.
Also you ignore the face that I own a $12 adapter that plugs into the GC's controller port that gives me a keyboard/mouse ps2 port and there is already a linux driver for it. So 2 of these in the GC's 4 ports give me keyboard, mouse and 2 controllers.
The SDL library is already ported to the GC(linux) and there are already homebrew 3d games running on the GC, including DOOM.
There is already a SEGA Genesis emulator on the GC: http://projects.sappharad.com/gcn/genplus/
a gcc port: http://www.devkit.tk/
...
So yes, I see a complete lack of interest in running homebrew software on a Gamecube. I mean isn't the reason this stuff already exists because there is no market for it?
[Remove Sarcasm Cap]
Give these people a cool alternative and maybe you have a bigger market than exists than the current ever-shrinking market of Amigans.
-No more hardware(A1) that's expensive and always on back order because there isn't enough demand to justify a new batch...um because it's expensive...hmmm chicken or egg?
Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.
Since Nintendo sells licenses and not necessarily kits (alternate dev-kits are available from Metrowerks) this means that homebrew code should run on Revolution in GC emulation. Since Revolution will support all GC software and hardware, any software that runs courtesy of SDLoad will run on Revolution. Now depending on how it will be emulated is what will cause homebrew apps that can 'self-clock' to run faster or not and possibly even with better 3d graphics(more poly's) than on a real GC.
-
billt wrote:
How many of these have your qoob and other gizmos?
Obviously enough to justify development of 2 mod chips (Viper and Qoob), Action Replay products (memcard-to-usb and memcard-to-SD), not to mention cube controller-to-ps2 port adapters... and keep these 'gizmos' in the $12-$50 price range.
GC enthusiasts aren't bickering Amigans. Aleast not for another 10 or 15 years. :)
-
>Also you ignore the face that I own a $12 adapter that plugs
>into the GC's controller port that gives me a keyboard/mouse
>ps2 port and there is already a linux driver for it. So 2 of
>these in the GC's 4 ports give me keyboard, mouse and 2
>controllers.
Sorry, I thought the discussion was about using the qoob's USB port... My mistake.
>Then it could get ported to recognize GC hardware >independently of the OS then maybe someone could send them a
>compiled HAL with some headers and request an install with
>this HAL and sell that. Theoretically they never need to stay
>that the HAL is for the GC.
There's still legal liabiliies there. Even if there's no laws broken, Nintendo could still drain Hyperion or Amiga Inc's life away in courts, and in the end win when they put our side into bankruptcy. I wouldn't want Nintendo swinging their lawyers at me, no sane person would.
Plus you need to either have proper hardware documentation to write drivers for, or go to great efforts (and thus great expense) to reverse engineer what the drivers need to do. Getting the documentation, Nintendo can say no or enforce their rules. Doing it the hard way, well, perhaps no one has the time to do this, or no one has the money to provide motivation to complete this task.
In my own case I'd also have ATI's lawyers on my back for your Linux proposition. My contract with them says no open source drivers for their stuff, so even if I had the interest and free time, I'd still get sued and bring down my employer with me. I ain't gonna do that. Right or wrong, I certainly don't personally have enough money to out-lawyer these guys, so I follow the rules I'm bound to.
>Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.
Didn't you just say they were $50 for a single used unit or $99 for a new one? ;)
-
>GC enthusiasts aren't bickering Amigans. Aleast not for another 10 or 15 years. :)
There's too many of them, and they have too many better things to talk about. They've got all those cool games, and all we have to discuss is cache coherency and DMA things it seems, or the business issues of porting to different cool hardware.
Long after Gamecube is abandoned by Nintendo and there's only a couple thousand people still using it, then they'll get an idea of what real life is like!
-
There is a reason the GC is so cheap and that is because anyone wanting to develop for the system must stump up a considerable amount of money (as opposed to a licence developers must buy the media (optical discs/cartridges etc) from Nintendo). The system itself is sold at a loss.
Nintendo are renowned for being particularly ruthless towards anybody developing unlicensed products for their systems and do not hesitate to take legal action against anyone doing so.
This would have to be taken into consideration for anybody seriously considering porting OS4 to GC. What would people rather have: a legitimate, licensed product endorsed by the manufacturer of the hardware it is to be used on or an illegal hack? That isn't the way to see Amiga products on the shelves of your local PC World.
While I agree that the A1 board is expensive it is also equally true that if Eyetech had produced millions of units they would have been relatively cheap. But would they have sold? I know I wouldn't have taken that gamble.
After all is said and done, and if everyone is honest, we would have to agree that the A1 has been a wonderful and remarkable experiment which has been powered by peoples love of the Amiga and their refusal to see it die. Given the choice of buying Nintendo hardware or Amiga hardware to run OS4, I'd rather give my money to Eyetech.
-
billt wrote:
In my own case I'd also have ATI's lawyers on my back for your Linux proposition. My contract with them says no open source drivers for their stuff, so even if I had the interest and free time, I'd still get sued and bring down my employer with me. I ain't gonna do that. Right or wrong, I certainly don't personally have enough money to out-lawyer these guys, so I follow the rules I'm bound to.
>Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.
Didn't you just say they were $50 for a single used unit or $99 for a new one? ;)
LOL, I mean a dime a dozen as far as where to get them. but cheap too and you get a killer free game @ $99.
Anyway, what is stopping you from releasing an official linux ATI FLipper driver for the GC? You obviously have the skills and contacts. Just because Linux is free doesn't mean everything you install on it is. Maybe you could bundle the driver with an optimized SDL library and sell that package. Somehow it must be possible to make money off of linux products. Heck, I remember Id selling Quake 1 or 2 for linux back in the day.
-
DrBlue wrote:
There is a reason the GC is so cheap and that is because anyone wanting to develop for the system must stump up a considerable amount of money (as opposed to a licence developers must buy the media (optical discs/cartridges etc) from Nintendo). The system itself is sold at a loss.
Nintendo are renowned for being particularly ruthless towards anybody developing unlicensed products for their systems and do not hesitate to take legal action against anyone doing so.
This would have to be taken into consideration for anybody seriously considering porting OS4 to GC. What would people rather have: a legitimate, licensed product endorsed by the manufacturer of the hardware it is to be used on or an illegal hack? That isn't the way to see Amiga products on the shelves of your local PC World.
While I agree that the A1 board is expensive it is also equally true that if Eyetech had produced millions of units they would have been relatively cheap. But would they have sold? I know I wouldn't have taken that gamble.
After all is said and done, and if everyone is honest, we would have to agree that the A1 has been a wonderful and remarkable experiment which has been powered by peoples love of the Amiga and their refusal to see it die. Given the choice of buying Nintendo hardware or Amiga hardware to run OS4, I'd rather give my money to Eyetech.
Hey, I'm all for a licensed product. If you read the whole thread, I've previously mentioned how Eyetech could develop an I/O expansion device similar to Nintendo's GBA Player that gives the Gamecube IDE, usb, etc...(maybe even more ram for a ramdisk) connections. It's all possible. That hi-speed serial port supports an 81MB/s transfet rate. Such a device could be made inexpensively because there is no CPU & socket (which seems to be the big expense on the A1) to supply.
Nintendo makes money off of third parties by selling licenses. Licensing is a contract and no 2 are the same. Licensing can be a flat rate or based on units sold or some combination.
I'm all for a licensed OS4 for GC bundled with an Eyetech GC I/O Expander for $200.
-
$200, :-o you jest sir. This is the Amiga marketplace after all. would you pay more? The chances are it would cost more than that if OS4 was bundled with it,maybe even without. I'd pay about £250 UK for such a product if it ever happens.
-
(If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
And only $99, keyboard sold separately)
???
why would i want to do this?i would never buy a nintendo there for kids!(in my opinion that is).
sorry i dont mean any harm with the above!dont shot me i only read the first post here.
I WANT THE AMIGA TO LIVE AND HAVE A FUTURE!!!thats all!
I`ll leave now,bye.
-
@lou
Do some research.
Phantasy Star Online connects at 10Mb/s half duplex. Therefore, anything that uses that exploit (ie. Qoob, NinjaMOD, etc. network boot) will use that speed. The bus itself has a thoretical max of 27Mb/s but this is shared with the memory cards, etc. If the gc-linux guys have gotten a 10mb/s full duplex connection working I don't know. The software allows you to set 100mb/s full duplex but the bus can't keep up with it.
The 2MB of flash on the qoob is not a filesystem, it's firmware. Yes, you can modify and reprogram the firmware. But, the purpose is to upgrade when newer/better exploit methods are found. Remember, these devices only purpose is to circumvent Nintendos barcode protection scheme. (I'd say that there's probably 1-2% that would actually use it for homebrew development, the other 98-99% are just pirates)
Regarding porting to the Revolution. Lets just wait until the vapor is cleared and the actual unit is out (or at least in 3rd party developers hands).
BTW, how's the porting going? :lol:
-
If you read the forums, which I've glanced at, one user has gotten 100Mbit at half duplex to work.
how's the porting going
Well, I don't have the A/R usb or SD card adapters yet. The latest version of PSO_Load doesn't even require PSO and can have you booting homebrew code in 10-15 seconds.
Keep laughing, btw, do you own an A1?
-
Tripitaka wrote:
$200, :-o you jest sir. This is the Amiga marketplace after all. would you pay more? The chances are it would cost more than that if OS4 was bundled with it,maybe even without. I'd pay about £250 UK for such a product if it ever happens.
Yes, I/O chipsets are cheaper than dirt. Don't you remember Alan R.'s ramblings about that (cpu + socket) being the main factor in the costs. Figure $100-120 for OS4 and $80 for a relatively low volume southbridge (I'm sure adolescent will correct me if it's a northridge) chip and some sort of communications protocol for the Nintendo hi-speed serial bus and a plastic case like the GBA player with connector openings. Heck, just 4 usb ports would be great.
-
lou_dias wrote:
If you read the forums, which I've glanced at, one user has gotten 100Mbit at half duplex to work.
Like I said. You can set the NIC to 100mb/s full duplex if you want. But, the bus can not support recieving at these speeds. Especially since it is also shared with the memory cards, sram, RTC, etc.
how's the porting going
Well, I don't have the A/R usb or SD card adapters yet. The latest version of PSO_Load doesn't even require PSO and can have you booting homebrew code in 10-15 seconds.
I believe you'll still need PSO to do the initial install on the SDCard, unless they've figured out the format. (Or, if you have a mod chip of course...) But, good luck. Make sure to set your PC to 10mb/s half duplex. :-D
Keep laughing, btw, do you own an A1?
No. But I'll keep laughing. Spending ~$250 to get GC-Linux running on your GCN is enough entertainment...
-
adolescent wrote:
I believe you'll still need PSO to do the initial install on the SDCard, unless they've figured out the format. (Or, if you have a mod chip of course...) But, good luck. Make sure to set your PC to 10mb/s half duplex. :-D
Stop speading misinformation.
Keep laughing, btw, do you own an A1?
No. But I'll keep laughing. Spending ~$250 to get GC-Linux running on your GCN is enough entertainment...
[/quote]
my net expenses will be ~$120 because I already own a GC w/Broadband adapter (BBA). BTW I noticed you are selling this:
CSMK2 060/66MHz w/128M RAM $300
A2065 Ethernet NIC w/10bt transceiver $85
LOL! You could just about have 2 full GC systems setup ready to run OS4/AROS/Linux with that money. Funny, the GC has about 10 times the processing power of that accelerator at 1/6 of the cost. Now I see where the bitterness comes from. You have Nintendo-envy. :P Oh goodness, I can't believe you'd run only a 10bt NIC, the horror! LOL
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
-
>Anyway, what is stopping you from releasing an official linux
>ATI FLipper driver for the GC? You obviously have the skills
>and contacts.
I've already talked about the time aspect of it all. I don't have any left for such a thing. Also, I'm not the only one involved in my current project, and others know a great deal about their parts than I do, and they aren't interested.
The sum total of everything I know about the ATI Flipper is the name of the chip and the name of the manufacturer, an dI think it was designed by another company that ATI bought. That's it. You can't make a driver with that kind of detailed knowledge. And if I'm right in thinking ATI bought another company to get this chip, it's not likely Radeon driver compatible.
I think ATI wouldn't give me info on Nintendo's chip. While ATI manufactures it, that doens't mean they have rights to give me information about the thing. I don't have any contacts at Nintendo. Considering the Liux web site you mentioned previously indicates they are afraid that official SDK or documentation holders under NDA could ruin the legality of their project, and I don't want to piss off Nintendo's and/or ATI's lawyers, I won't go there.
> Somehow it must be possible to make money off of linux products.
A lot of companies already do. But those are for things running on PC hardware. Look at Sony, they used to sell a Linux kit for PSX2 but they stopped. Why? Maybe it didn't pay off in the case of a games console.
Gack, IT admin is rebooting our network, back in a while...
-
lou_dias wrote:
my net expenses will be ~$120 because I already own a GC w/Broadband adapter (BBA). BTW I noticed you are selling this:
CSMK2 060/66MHz w/128M RAM $300
A2065 Ethernet NIC w/10bt transceiver $85
LOL! You could just about have 2 full GC systems setup ready to run OS4/AROS/Linux with that money. Funny, the GC has about 10 times the processing power of that accelerator at 1/6 of the cost. Now I see where the bitterness comes from. You have Nintendo-envy. :P Oh goodness, I can't believe you'd run only a 10bt NIC, the horror! LOL
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
I already have 2 full GC systems (one black GCN, and a Q), with BBA, SD, PSO, etc. But, I use them for playing games (and/or MP3, VCD, DVD on the Q), not for some fantasy of making them into a computer.
As for the price. You can do so much more with a big box classic Amiga than you can with a GC running Linux.
Anyway, good luck. I'm sure you'll find your Linux experience is worth the $$$. :lol:
-
adolescent wrote:
I already have 2 full GC systems (one black GCN, and a Q), with BBA, SD, PSO, etc. But, I use them for playing games (and/or MP3, VCD, DVD on the Q), not for some fantasy of making them into a computer.
As for the price. You can do so much more with a big box classic Amiga than you can with a GC running Linux.
Anyway, good luck. I'm sure you'll find your Linux experience is worth the $$$. :lol:
Ah, so you own a gamecube (2 even) and not an A1...imagine that and how many other Amigas own GC's and not A1's...
The Q is way overpriced. A GC is $99, a DVD player is $40, a Q - $3XX. Insane.
Anyway, I work in IT again. I've got 0 experience in Linux. If I can get Linux on the GC, that's positive experience for me. My PC's already got 2 1/2 verions of Windows on it not to mention all my emulators and db server, web server and development packages. Offloading Apache and maybe MySQL and PHP to the GC will be nice for testing without slowing down my PC for everything else (IM, iMesh, email, etc...) $120 for invaluable experience. That's a steal.
-
billt wrote:
A lot of companies already do. But those are for things running on PC hardware. Look at Sony, they used to sell a Linux kit for PSX2 but they stopped. Why? Maybe it didn't pay off in the case of a games console.
Well, we all know Sony is trying to get US Customs to consider the PS line as computers in order to pay less tariffs on importing them.
It's fine to release a Linux kit, but what could anyone do with it? Did it include a PS2 optimized gcc compiler? No apps = no sales. I don't care for the PS2 and for all I know, the people who bought the Linux kit are surfing the web with their PS2's.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Ah, so you own a gamecube (2 even) and not an A1...imagine that and how many other Amigas own GC's and not A1's...
What does that matter? 20 million GCN owners aren't wishing they had OS4 or an A1. The count is just one, you.
The Q is way overpriced. A GC is $99, a DVD player is $40, a Q - $3XX. Insane.
When I got the Q a few years ago, GCN's were $199 and DVD players were $100. Of course, back then the Q was ~$450. But, I got it because it's a neat looking box and a good collectors item. However, even with it's added capability I still wouldn't think it was a computer.
-
lou_dias wrote:
billt wrote:
A lot of companies already do. But those are for things running on PC hardware. Look at Sony, they used to sell a Linux kit for PSX2 but they stopped. Why? Maybe it didn't pay off in the case of a games console.
Well, we all know Sony is trying to get US Customs to consider the PS line as computers in order to pay less tariffs on importing them.
Not at all. This was a follow on to the successful Net Yaroze homebrew development system for the PS.
It's fine to release a Linux kit, but what could anyone do with it? Did it include a PS2 optimized gcc compiler? No apps = no sales. I don't care for the PS2 and for all I know, the people who bought the Linux kit are surfing the web with their PS2's.
There is/was quite a scene for PS2 Linux. I've seen a UAE port, ported emulators, games, etc. After all, it's more of a computer (ie. USB, Firewire, 40GB HDD, 100Mbit NIC, VGA output).
To answer your questions, yes it did have PS2 gcc, headers, etc. I don't know what apps you're refering to. It's a dev kit for homebrews, so apps are there in the community, or you can write your own. Surfing the web? Not sure what to think about that. Is that a good or bad thing?
-
Can someone PLEASE LOCK THIS FORUM????
Look at the date it is created :
Posted on: 2005/1/31 15:22 :-o :-o :-o
GOD HAVE MERCY!!!!
I AM REALLY TIRED TO SEE IT ON THE FROND PAGE ALL THE TIME !!!!! :pissed:
PLEASE!!!!
thanx :-P
-
Animagic wrote:
Can someone PLEASE LOCK THIS FORUM????
Look at the date it is created :
Posted on: 2005/1/31 15:22 :-o :-o :-o
GOD HAVE MERCY!!!!
I AM REALLY TIRED TO SEE IT ON THE FROND PAGE ALL THE TIME !!!!! :pissed:
PLEASE!!!!
thanx :-P
then don't post in it
I intend to keep doing status updates. I'll turn my gc into some form of PC by the end of the summer.
-
if the arguing keeps up there wont be a post to read.
-
TheMagicM wrote:
if the arguing keeps up there wont be a post to read.
does this forum support locking out individual users from a thread?
-
no but if they get too bothersome, I'll just lock their account.
-
I'm no fan of censorship, however, trolls suck.
My next update should be in a couple of weeks when I've ordered the Action Replay Max Drive or something similar and the case mod and possibly a mod chip (qoob).
-
i think everyone else has posted to this thread so i thought i would too. i dont really have an opinion, people can run amiga or try to run amiga or imagine running amiga on anything they want. aros, uae, and my amiga 3000 are good enough for me.
everybody be nice... ok? ... please?
look at this for a while :banana:
-
Update!
I should have my qoob Pro and case mod in a day or 2.
Nice article: http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/04/01/warp_pipe.html
verifies whay I said about the 'Cube's rudimentary bios and being very open like programming a c64/128 or Amiga and yes they even mention Amiga in the article.
they've come a long way
how to install Linux, SNES9X, mfe, network drives: http://modthatcube.pxn-os.com/content/linux/index.html
realworld review of said modchip:
http://iso420.pxn-os.com/ngc/qoobprov1/index.htm
debunks some myths like the 10 MBit limit and 1.4GB limit on DVDs
-
lou_dias wrote:
debunks some myths like the 10 MBit limit and 1.4GB limit on DVDs
The great part about this is the speed as I successfully backed up an image with an average of 650 K/B per second. Another big {bleep} you to all the people that said the Cube could only go at 10MBPS no matter if you used PSO or not.
This myth? Hate to break it to this guy, but 650KB/s is less than 10Mb/s speeds.
The facts are that the bus is limited to 27Mb/s and it's shared with other components. You'll never be able to get 100Mb/s transmissions on the GCN.
-
yeah my math made is come out to 5.2Mb/s but I've never dowloaded anything off the internet faster than that either.
On a forum, an I forget which one, but I believe I've posted it before, some user has configured it to run much higher between the PC and the GC.
Anyway, even if it was limited to 10Mb/s, 1.2 Megabytes per second is about a 8 speed CDROM and at 27Mb/s it's a 24 speed, which as I've stated before is fast enough to run networked drives from and with much less average seek time (hd vs. cdrom).
There is also a patch that allows the GC gameport connected ps/2 keyboards to work. Hopefully it will become a standard part of the linux build. I'm sure with a hair more of effort, a ps/2 mouse driver could be written.
This is really a NON-ISSUE unless you want to stream high-res video to the GC.
-
The peak I've seen using UDP was about ~1600KB/s (~900KB/s with TCP) which has the hardware configured for 100MB/s but like I said, you can't get full speed transfers due to the bus speed. These are probably the max because this was a very streamlined transfer protocol and client/server application. Normal overhead will chop these numbers down quite a bit. This might be okay for web browsing, and casual file transfers, but for running the system it's very slow.
-
Quit the bullpoo.
10Mb/s is 178 times faster than a 56K modem.
The average broadband internet connectio is 20-50 times faster than 56K.
Stop your trolling.
The only thing you are succeeding in doing is stopping an uninformed noob from gaining any interest in the possibility of AROS or OS4 on GC.
Too bad this product http://www.planetgamecube.com/news.cfm?action=item&id=2292 never saw the light of day.
-
10Mb/s is 178 times faster than a 56K modem.
The average broadband internet connectio is 20-50 times faster than 56K.
It doesn't mean you got 100% out of a 56k connection :roll:, you wish!
-
Well 10Mb/s may be fast for internet access, but it's incredibly slow for pulling files of any consequence over the network. Even 100Mb/s feels slow compared to a local disk.
That said, it would be neat to see AROS running on a Gamecube, but someone has to port it and I don't think it's even running under Linux PPC or OS X hosted yet.
Dreamcast would be a fun port too. It has proper keyboard and mouse peripherals, boots homebrew without a modchip, and even has a fairly high speed ethernet card (though it will cost you more than a new Gamecube). It also uses a little endian processor which might make porting a little easier. Of course, no one's even attempted any kind of SuperH port let alone one for the Dreamcast.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
Well 10Mb/s may be fast for internet access, but it's incredibly slow for pulling files of any consequence over the network. Even 100Mb/s feels slow compared to a local disk.
Honestly - have you ever worked in an office environment with a LAN and accessed applications from mapped network drives? You are telling me that moving 1.2 MEGABYTES per second is too slow? :roll: And just how big are the files that you are playing with? 10Mb/s is equivalent to an 8 speed CDROM but without spin up times or long seek times - so effectively much MUCH faster.
Oh and they do have Gamecube keyboards as well as adapters for ps/2 keyboards/mice through the controller port.
I don't see the advantage of a DC port as it's got less memory and inferior capabilities and uses CDs as opposed to DVDs.
-
pixie wrote:
10Mb/s is 178 times faster than a 56K modem.
The average broadband internet connectio is 20-50 times faster than 56K.
It doesn't mean you got 100% out of a 56k connection :roll:, you wish!
and your point is what? :-?
-
lou_dias wrote:
MskoDestny wrote:
Well 10Mb/s may be fast for internet access, but it's incredibly slow for pulling files of any consequence over the network. Even 100Mb/s feels slow compared to a local disk.
Honestly - have you ever worked in an office environment with a LAN and accessed applications from mapped network drives? You are telling me that moving 1.2 MEGABYTES per second is too slow? :roll: And just how big are the files that you are playing with? 10Mb/s is equivalent to an 8 speed CDROM but without spin up times or long seek times - so effectively much MUCH faster.
Nobody uses 10Mbit networks in office environments any more (unless they're stuck with vintage hardware and cabling!) - they are way too slow unless you've only got a small office and a handful of very light network users.
Although, in theory, 10Mbit networks support 1.2Mb/sec transfer, you'll typically get around 80% utilisation, bringing that down to 1Mb/sec, and that's excluding network protocol overheads and any other traffic.
I don't even use 10Mbit/sec at home, it's just too painfully slow, especially when transferring video files which can be up to a few Gb in size.
Anyway... back on topic! 10Mbit/sec is probably tolerable for direct streaming of data to the Gamecube, though some of the forums have reported that even on a 100Mbit network, playback of in-game videos in this way is a bit choppy.
Oh and they do have Gamecube keyboards as well as adapters for ps/2 keyboards/mice through the controller port.
It's great that the GC Linux port utilises these.
Has anyone attempted a UAE port to GC Linux? Would the GC's hardware be capable of running an emulated Amiga at a reasonable speed?
- Ali
-
lou_dias wrote:
Quit the bullpoo.
Don't know where this comes from.
10Mb/s is 178 times faster than a 56K modem.
The average broadband internet connectio is 20-50 times faster than 56K.
Both irrelevant. You wouldn't mount a filesystem over a 56k modem or broadband would you? I said it was good for web browsing, which you seem to agree with here.
Stop your trolling.
The only thing you are succeeding in doing is stopping an uninformed noob from gaining any interest in the possibility of AROS or OS4 on GC.
I'm simply offering technical information,, and corrections to incorrect information posted by others (including you). If you think my specs are wrong, then please offer counter information (with sources), instead of just calling me a troll.
-
They are irrelevant as statistics goes... but also meaning that a 10Mb/s is magnitudes faster then of 56K, altough I don't see relevance of 56K... t:roll: :-P
-
My point is that 10Mb/s is plenty fast for a single home user to surf the web and store files on a network drive. IT's not like you'd have to compete with the guy in the next cubicle for bandwidth. Also VPN's are running at 'net' speeds which at best are only using 50% of a 10Mb connection. If you want more speed for larger (movie) files, burn them to DVD and stream them from the Cube's DVD drive.
So can we get off the "10Mbit is too slow' kick?
BTW, my qoob chip and case mod should arrive tomorrow or the next day, it's in Buffalo, NY as of 5:31PM.
I need to do more reading before I install it as people report that the reset button doesn't work...weird... Hopefully next month I will get a nice 42" Plasma TV to run in 852x480 widescreen progressive scan mode. I'll bet the linux framebuffer doesn't support that yet but I have plenty of games that do.
I've already downloaded the GC Windows Dev kit. Haven't unpacked it yet. It would be nice if .NET could produce GC code! I'm a VB.net programmer by day now...
Oh and I lost my soldering iron so time to buy a new one so it may be a week or so...
-
The primary advantage of the Dreamcast is that you don't need a modchip opening up the audience somewhat. While there are certainly a lot of people with Gamecubes, only a relatively small percentage of them have modchips. I think it very likely that there are more Dreamcast owners than there are owners of modded Gamecubes. It also has the advantage of being a very well understood platform whereas some of the Nintendo hardware isn't completely figured out yet (at least so I remember seeing somewhere in this thread).
Part of my interest is due to the fact that the SH-4 is the fastest chip (apart from x86) I've come across available in a non-BGA package. BGA is a very hobbyist unfriendly package as you need X-Ray equipment to verify that it's been soldered correctly and there aren't as many nifty tricks to solder it on a budget in the first place. PowerPC is all BGA, ColdFire is BGA, ARM/XScale chips with comparable performance are all BGA. As an aspiring hobby computer designer that makes the SH-4 a rather sexy chip. I think it would be kind of cool to try and put together some kind of custom SFF AROS box, or maybe a STB or handheld device. A Dreamcast port would make porting AROS to such a device that much easier.
I suppose part of it is just the Sega fanboy in me shining through. The Dreamcast is a neat little system that died more from mismanagement than on the merits of the hardware, much like the Amiga.
Frankly, if we're talking about actual usefulness as a computer, the XBox makes the most sense. It has a hard drive, built-in ethernet (and it's not crippled like on the GC) and hacking USB mice and keyboards to work with it is trivial. Until someone comes up with a WOS, AOS4, or MOS wrapper for AROS there's not really any advantage to running it on PowerPC
-
My argument against the Xbox is thatt for $150 these days, I can already buy a full PC that outperforms the XBOX.
Also, I already own an Athlon 3200+ PC with a Gig of RAM, why would I want an XBOX?
The Amiga community decided they wanted a PPC-based Amiga. The GC gives them that at a low cost of entry.
You don't need a modchip to run homebrew code on a GC. Phantasy Star Online attempts to download a new executable from the broadband adapter, this is where you can trick it to run your own code and what started the homebrew revolution on the GC.
However the 'qoob' modchip that I am buying involves only 6 wires (20 minutes total install time) and comes with 2MB of flashable ram (via USB) to install your own code and boot in a second just by holding down the 'B' button on the controller. Yes, Linux is running in 1 second on the GC with this mod chip.
Now that's nice.
-
I still can't put a system together with case, psu and the power that's in the Xbox at the same price point that the Xbox has. Maybe prices are different in your part of the world.
As for the GameCube... OS4 will never ever run on that. Not in a million years.
-
lou_dias wrote:
My argument against the Xbox is thatt for $150 these days, I can already buy a full PC that outperforms the XBOX.
The cheapest I've been able to buy a motherboard and processor for is $100. Add in a hard drive, case, power supply and optical drive and I'm easily over $150. Besides, add in all the stuff you've added to your GC and I'm sure the Gamecube's price advantage goes away.
Also, I already own an Athlon 3200+ PC with a Gig of RAM, why would I want an XBOX?
Why would you want a Gamecube for a computer? It's no more powerful than the XBox, probably less for certain tasks. Apart from having a cute little box that fits under your TV, there's not much point in using either as a computer if you've already got a faster one.
The Amiga community decided they wanted a PPC-based Amiga. The GC gives them that at a low cost of entry.
I think the Amiga community is rather divided on what they want. Some want PowerPC machines, some want x86 machines (as seen by the development of AROS), some want ColdFire machines. There are at least a handful that have moved on and think that trying to bring the Amiga back is a waste of time. From a practical point of view, PowerPC makes sense if you want to run some of the PowerPC native Amiga software; however, at the moment AROS has no ability to run any of this, even if you get it running on a PPC machine. Someone needs to write an appropriate compatibility layer.
You don't need a modchip to run homebrew code on a GC. Phantasy Star Online attempts to download a new executable from the broadband adapter, this is where you can trick it to run your own code and what started the homebrew revolution on the GC.
On the Dreamcast I just stick the disc in and it boots. Can't get much easier than that. No funky exploits, no wires, no modchips, it just works.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
The cheapest I've been able to buy a motherboard and processor for is $100. Add in a hard drive, case, power supply and optical drive and I'm easily over $150. Besides, add in all the stuff you've added to your GC and I'm sure the Gamecube's price advantage goes away.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1447090&CatId=118
by the time you spend money on a bigger hard drive for the Xbox, how much have you spent?
Why would you want a Gamecube for a computer? It's no more powerful than the XBox, probably less for certain tasks. Apart from having a cute little box that fits under your TV, there's not much point in using either as a computer if you've already got a faster one.
I don't want a Gamecube for a computer, I want AOS4 on cheap hardware and that's the cheapest. Only buy being affordable can the community grow. It's also easy to program for. The whole 'unknown' and 'propriety' issue is dead. The homebrew people have documented this hardware very well. How else would Linux, emulators, media players and even a gcc compiler be able to run on this system ALREADY.
I think the Amiga community is rather divided on what they want. Some want PowerPC machines, some want x86 machines (as seen by the development of AROS), some want ColdFire machines. There are at least a handful that have moved on and think that trying to bring the Amiga back is a waste of time. From a practical point of view, PowerPC makes sense if you want to run some of the PowerPC native Amiga software; however, at the moment AROS has no ability to run any of this, even if you get it running on a PPC machine. Someone needs to write an appropriate compatibility layer.
supposedly there is an ongoing AROS ppc port...
You don't need a modchip to run homebrew code on a GC. Phantasy Star Online attempts to download a new executable from the broadband adapter, this is where you can trick it to run your own code and what started the homebrew revolution on the GC.
On the Dreamcast I just stick the disc in and it boots. Can't get much easier than that. No funky exploits, no wires, no modchips, it just works.[/quote]
Well I imagine the average homebrew developer isn't above doing the trivial things needed to get their code to run on whatever system they choose.
Ideally, I'd like to see Hyperion, Eyetech and Amiga come together and get a Gamecube license and port OS4 completely and have Eyetech produce a device like the planned IBM Gamecube hard drive adapter...that way Eyetech isn't out of the loop and no bridges are burned.
-
I'd like to see how you plan to convince Amiga Inc. to port AOS4 to the Gamecube when they have thus far expressed little interest in porting to PowerPC Macs. They're no more proprietary than a Gamecube and make a lot more sense as a computer.
lou_dias wrote:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1447090&CatId=118
That's a refurb (i.e. used computer) and it's only below $200 after a mail-in rebate which are horribly unreliable (and at the very least slow) even from TigerDirect with their little gurantee.
by the time you spend money on a bigger hard drive for the Xbox, how much have you spent?
Why would I need a bigger hard drive? 8GB is enough for AROS and I could always use your network drive strategy. Besides, current XBoxes actually ship with a 20GB drive. It's just partitioned to 8GB.
I don't want a Gamecube for a computer, I want AOS4 on cheap hardware and that's the cheapest. Only buy being affordable can the community grow. It's also easy to program for. The whole 'unknown' and 'propriety' issue is dead. The homebrew people have documented this hardware very well. How else would Linux, emulators, media players and even a gcc compiler be able to run on this system ALREADY.
None of those require a very complete understanding of the hardware. You just need to know where the memory is, how the processor works (largely a known entity since it's mostly a standard PPC chip) and where to access the framebuffer. As I understand it there aren't any decent 3D drivers fo GC Linux.
supposedly there is an ongoing AROS ppc port...
There is, but it doesn't work yet and when it does it still won't run programs written for AOS4, MOS, or WarpOS/PowerUp. A compatability layer still needs to be written.
Well I imagine the average homebrew developer isn't above doing the trivial things needed to get their code to run on whatever system they choose.
The problem isn't the developers, it's the end users. How many people are going to go through the trouble of getting homebrew booted on a GC to try out some hacked version of AOS4 or a GC port of AROS?
-
lou_dias wrote:
I don't want a Gamecube for a computer, I want AOS4 on cheap hardware and that's the cheapest. Only buy being affordable can the community grow. It's also easy to program for. The whole 'unknown' and 'propriety' issue is dead. The homebrew people have documented this hardware very well. How else would Linux, emulators, media players and even a gcc compiler be able to run on this system ALREADY.
The GCN (with gc-linux) ISN'T AFFORDABLE after you add in all the stuff you need (BBA, Mod chip, case, keyboard/mouse adapter, extra PC, etc.).
If cost is the main factor, then a Powermac G3 (Beige or B&W) would be a better choice since it's a real computer.
Ideally, I'd like to see Hyperion, Eyetech and Amiga come together and get a Gamecube license and port OS4 completely and have Eyetech produce a device like the planned IBM Gamecube hard drive adapter...that way Eyetech isn't out of the loop and no bridges are burned.
Have you talked to Hyperion, Eyetech and Amiga, Inc. yet? (I know this has been asked dozens of times in this thread, but it's the logical place to start...) Or was this thread just a big troll?
-
MskoDestny wrote:
I'd like to see how you plan to convince Amiga Inc. to port AOS4 to the Gamecube when they have thus far expressed little interest in porting to PowerPC Macs. They're no more proprietary than a Gamecube and make a lot more sense as a computer.
Just stating the ideal thing, not how it will happen.
Why would I need a bigger hard drive? 8GB is enough for AROS and I could always use your network drive strategy. Besides, current XBoxes actually ship with a 20GB drive. It's just partitioned to 8GB.
Again, I view the XBOX as a crippled PC. Why get that when for a few dollars more I can get the real thing...which I already have anyway (PC)...
I don't want a Gamecube for a computer, I want AOS4 on cheap hardware and that's the cheapest. Only buy being affordable can the community grow. It's also easy to program for. The whole 'unknown' and 'propriety' issue is dead. The homebrew people have documented this hardware very well. How else would Linux, emulators, media players and even a gcc compiler be able to run on this system ALREADY.
None of those require a very complete understanding of the hardware. You just need to know where the memory is, how the processor works (largely a known entity since it's mostly a standard PPC chip) and where to access the framebuffer. As I understand it there aren't any decent 3D drivers fo GC Linux.
SDL has been ported and there are 3D homebrew games running on the GC.
supposedly there is an ongoing AROS ppc port...
There is, but it doesn't work yet and when it does it still won't run programs written for AOS4, MOS, or WarpOS/PowerUp. A compatability layer still needs to be written.
As far as OS4... once the GC is established as the 'bottom-end' machine and A1 as top-end, and the core libraries defined, you could include 2 different compiled versions of an app on a CD/DVD. The media files are the same and that is usually the biggest chunk of a package. As far a compiling, it would boil down to using one 'makefile' vs. another...
Well I imagine the average homebrew developer isn't above doing the trivial things needed to get their code to run on whatever system they choose.
The problem isn't the developers, it's the end users. How many people are going to go through the trouble of getting homebrew booted on a GC to try out some hacked version of AOS4 or a GC port of AROS?[/quote]
Well, let me ask you this? What person who is used to Wintel is going to abandon the PC for an A1? This is a niche hobbyist's market. Until a hobbyist can use AOS hardware and software daily without the need for Windows or OS X, the Amiga market will never grow.
Even for hobbyists, the A1 is a high price point.
Show what you can do with a lowly gamecube, then when the apps are all there and supported, upgrade to an A1(or 2 or whatever).
There are more Amiga users with Gamecubes than there are Amigans with A1's.
Target the GC and your OS4 user-base just jump up ALOT. Now maybe somebody wants Ibrowse and SimpleMail. Now Shogo would run nice on a OS4-GC...and whatever else Hyperion ports to OS4...
Amigans have been hacking and wedging crap hardware to "upgrade" there machines for years. The GC solution doesn't look so bad when you think about it.
With a Qoob chip, the OS could boot in a second. If you get an earlier GC with the DV out option, you can hook it up to a traditional monitor and get a nice 852x480 or 640x480 display.
It wouldn't even be illegal to resell qoob chips with a Linux or AROS, or whatever core pre-flashed on it.
Sell a bundle with Qoob Pro (pre-flashed with whatever os), case mod, 2 ps/2 adapters for mouse and keyboard. Optional component cable->VGA adapter. Optional Samba compatible net-server for HD storage and an OS4 CD/DVD for the rest of the OS...
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, let me ask you this? What person who is used to Wintel is going to abandon the PC for an A1? This is a niche hobbyist's market. Until a hobbyist can use AOS hardware and software daily without the need for Windows or OS X, the Amiga market will never grow.
The Amiga market won't grow until there is a compelling reason for people to switch. The only thing I see pushing people off of Wintel is fear of viruses and spyware, but I haven't seen that push anyone to the Amiga. Mac or Linux maybe, but not Amiga. AOS4 or AROS on the Gamecube won't change that. Even a more mature version of AROS for the PC won't have much of an effect without other forces coming into play.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
The Amiga market won't grow until there is a compelling reason for people to switch. The only thing I see pushing people off of Wintel is fear of viruses and spyware, but I haven't seen that push anyone to the Amiga. Mac or Linux maybe, but not Amiga. AOS4 or AROS on the Gamecube won't change that. Even a more mature version of AROS for the PC won't have much of an effect without other forces coming into play.
Let me ask you this.
If every current classic Amiga user upgrade to OS4 on GC or A1, would you consider that growth? I would. Sales=growth. Now that you have an installed base, now the 3rd parties see a viable market for releasing ports to the platform. When enough of the applications that are required by John Q. Public to accomplish his day-to-day computing, then will the Amiga OS be an option instead of Windows.
Let me paint another picture.
Look at the size of the gamecube. It's small.
I could easily mount it in a car with a 5-7" LCD.
Now I work for a manufacturing company, so they get these industrial catalogs with all sorts of neat stuff, like miniature keyboards and wireless-this&that. So now I could mount a mini keyboard with a mouse and attach a wireless access point and surf the web when I stop at Dunkin donuts for coffee in my car.
That's some nice bling bling without potentially ruining a laptop over time...
-
Ok, it's official, I have my qoob chip, case mode and gamebit. So I've spent &97.83 with shipping. This case mod to put in 12cm DVD's was $24.99, others are only 14.99 but it comes with a nice qoob 3D'sticker' for the case. Really, I just didn't feel like looking around. The case mod is not a requirement as there are many suppliers of 8cm rewritable DVDs.
Although I already own a GC, I think I will go out an buy the Super Smash Bros. Meelee bubdle for $99 + $5.00 tax. and install it on that. My personal 27" TV doesn't have component in so I will put the new system with mod in my room and move my old GC to the family living room and since I already own the digital component out cables for that, I will finally be able to play some games in all there splendor.
-
well, I bougth the SSBM Bundle and didn't even play a game on it and just opened it up and soldered away...
When I put it back together, nothing happened so I need to check my connections. I bought a cheapo soldering iron so my soldering was a bit shaky, lol... Not like the good old days when I used to work at Motorola ISG division and was soldering with their $1500 irons. I was assembling cable modems back in '96 or '97.
-
Hi,
Hope you haven't fried it! :-o
I'd be interested to see how you get on with the mod chip and new case. Have been considering doing the same to mine.
For now, though, I have a cheapo SD-card to GC converter on order, plus Action Replay, which will allow basic homebrew stuff to be run without hacking the case apart or relying on the Phantasy Star Online exploit.
One day.... someone might get UAE running on GC Linux!
- Ali
-
Sales=growth.
Profit = growth.
-
Waccoon wrote:
Sales=growth.
Profit = growth.
Well, Amiga isn't a console company which sells hardware at a loss... Hence Sales yields profits which yields growth.
Anyway, I just ordered Motorla Wireless 802.11g Ethernet Bridge WE800G to make my gamecube connect wirelessly to my pc. $44.99 on Tigerdirect. Now I don't have to give up my wired connection on the pc and can share the connection to the internet wirelessly. GC<->PC<->internet.
I can email a picture of how I did it as far as the qoob chip install, personally using the Serial port 2 area would be ideal for the usb interface but the cable isn't long enough to channel it there. I may just get some double-sided adhesive table and mount it to the side permenantly.
since this is a new GC, if my connections look good, I will remove the chip and replace the GC with a new one. Just say that when I plugged it in it didn't work, and just have Walmart replace it with another brand new unit.
These newer 'Cubes don't have the digital display output or serial port 2 interface.
-
I unsoldered everything and the GC worked fine. When doing so I noticed my shoddy job soldering. So I did it again and I think when removing(or soldering) the power line the first time around, I ruined the pad so I am waiting to here back from the qoob makers on an alternate place to supply power...
I also ordered this: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-detailsInactive.asp?Sku=S195-2092 to give my cube wireless networking. I've installed a wireless card in my PC to communicare with the 'Cube and I have a 75' wired internet connection going into my PC.
-
AROS PPC is working in some form now to at least some extent. I think it's a linux hosted version. Not sure how much is actually working as I was too lazy to read the whole discussion on the mailing list.
-
Update:
Haven't heard back from the makers of the qoob chip on an alternate power source. I'll try the 'boards' next.
Got my 50" 1280x720 16:9 Samsung DLP TV in. Plugged in my original Cube's component cables - and was blown away. F-Zero GX is brand new all over again. As are many games.
How about that Revolution 3D spacial controller? Sweet! And the 'behind closed doors' demos that the editors got to see had it running on a good old Gamecube! Since they did a Metroid Prime 2 demo with the controller, maybe they'll release an MP2 Special Edition! That would look excellent on my new TV.
I wonder if the Cube's RAMDAC can be pushed to a 1280x720 display... This TV has a VGA-in and my Windows desktop looked pretty sharp on it.
Now let's see, AO4 on Revolution with that controller (direct pointing device) replacing a mouse - excellent indeed.
In the meantime, I think I will order the SD card adapter/loader ($14.99). That way I can get Linux running on the GC sooner than later. I also ordered a PS/2->Serial adapter so I can plug in a ps/2 mouse into my pc and see what it's sending to the serial port. I may write a mouse driver for the ps/2->Gamecube controller adapter that I have.
-
so?
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
so?
Are your 21 other posts equally as impressive? :roll:
By the way, Frieza's a pansy. You could have chosen someone a little cooler like - Cooler. :-D
-
>Well, Amiga isn't a console company which sells hardware at a
>loss... Hence Sales yields profits which yields growth.
Sales needs to reach a certain level to break even. If as an example you invest $200000 to create something, and you make $100 "profit" (after manufacturing/distribution costs) on each unit sold, you need to sell 2000 units to break even on the initial R&D investment. You don't make any "true profit" until you sell unit 2001, at which point you have $100 to show for yourself.
While we don't know what any real-life numbers are for Eyetech or the Troika thing, we can't say how many sales are required to surpass investments and start generating actual real-life profit. Eyetech hasn't given out numbers so we'r left to guesstimate on them, and Troika is purely guesswork as well for now.
-
I just want to reply on waccoons reply about the 10Mbit internet connection and download speed, you said that its hard to even get over 520Kbs download speed, i dont know where you live dude but here in sweden where i live i got 24Mb Broadband by dsl no problems with it ive been up around 2MB (2048KB) per second on mine but almost maxed donwload on near 3MB per second so dont know what internet you guys got but mine work fine at 24Mbps.
//som99
-
@billt
Yes but it's easier to sell 2001 units to a potential customer base of 20,000,000 people who shell out $50-150 a month on NEW software vs. 2000 "Amigans" who cling to antiquated technology.
Again, that's why I feel a licensed product, which would be reviewed by major gaming magazines for free, would do Amiga as a whole a lot of good.
Sell a package that includes:
Keyboard, mouse, OS4 Native for GC in licensed disc, bundled Hyperion software(games), browser, chat client, email client. Support Progressice scan.
Let the consumer buy the broad band adapter from Nintendo to get the internet access stuff.
IBM proved that you can have a mini-hard drive in the parallel port expansion. Toshiba makes an 80GB 1.8" HD. Heck they got a .85" HD that will hold 20GB. This could come as a future expansion.
Yes, a little to late in the console's lifecycle but it would run on Revolution due to backwards compatibility (except the HD).
-
Frieza is the master :-D
-
Frieza got his arse whooped by Goku when he first became a super saiyan, then turned into a cyborg and got his arse handed to him again by teen-aged future Trunks, then when Goku died and Cell and Frieza teamed up in HFIL, Goku didn't even have to go Super Saiyan to whoop him and Cell's ass. Then in the GT series (and/or a movie as well) when they let everyone out of HFIL, Gohan handed his his ass.
Oh and he wears lipstick and talks like a patsy too.
@adolescent: I think you'll be interested in the current poll. :-D
-
lou_dias wrote:
IBM proved that you can have a mini-hard drive in the parallel port expansion. Toshiba makes an 80GB 1.8" HD. Heck they got a .85" HD that will hold 20GB. This could come as a future expansion.
In your words, "bullpoo". IBM has never had a HD developed or in development for the GCN. Add this to the many rumors of zip drives, HDs, and other removable expansions for the GCN.
-
I figured i'd make a post here, since everybody else and their grandparents have. I wouldnt want to miss out on the fun.
*bump*
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
IBM proved that you can have a mini-hard drive in the parallel port expansion. Toshiba makes an 80GB 1.8" HD. Heck they got a .85" HD that will hold 20GB. This could come as a future expansion.
In your words, "bullpoo". IBM has never had a HD developed or in development for the GCN. Add this to the many rumors of zip drives, HDs, and other removable expansions for the GCN.
I posted a link a few pages back to a planetgamecube.com page announcing that the product was in development.
F.Y.I: the GBA player for the GC is jut a fancy data I/O device that specifically reads GBA roms and writes to them as well. The included disc is the actual emulator that reads and writes to the hi-speed parralel port.
So don't say it's not possible. BTW, what color troll are you again?
-
lou_dias wrote:
I posted a link a few pages back to a planetgamecube.com page announcing that the product was in development.
Even the planetgamecube.com people later said it was phoney. (keep in mind this is years old now, but at least you could do a minute or two of research before posting nonsense).
F.Y.I: the GBA player for the GC is jut a fancy data I/O device that specifically reads GBA roms and writes to them as well. The included disc is the actual emulator that reads and writes to the hi-speed parralel port.
Totally incorrect. The disc is not an emulator at all. The Gameboy Player contains the complete GBA hardware, except for I/O (which is handled by the GCN). The disc is simply there to boot the GCN, setup the hardware, etc. There is no software emulation or rom transfer to the GCNs memory.
BTW, what color troll are you again?
If supplying correct technical information makes me a troll then I'll let you pick my color.
-
if that were the case, the GBA player would cost as much as a GBA.
The GBA player application draws a selectable border around the GBA display and allows you to swap carts without shutting off the GC and rebooting.
Your saying the parrallel port is lightning fast now, yet you've previously said it wasn't fast enough for anything. If the parrallel port can do 30 frames per second of video as well as audio while receiving controller input, then hard drive access is trivial through that port.
How do you explain getting back to the cartridge swap screen? The GC can emulate the GBA in it's sleep. The included GBA hardware is the catridge connector and ROM reader. If anybody knows how to emulate Nintendo hardware - it's Ninetendo. Next you'll be saying that "Revolution" is going to have GC, N64, SNES and NES hardware in it because it will emulate all those machines.
Tell you what, open up yours and show me the GBA cpu+gpu+spu in there and I'll retract my trolling statements.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Tell you what, open up yours and show me the GBA cpu+gpu+spu in there and I'll retract my trolling statements.
Why? I've already seen pics of the circuit board, it's up to you to back up your insane claims. But, to solidify things, how about some quotes from the creator of the GB Player himself.
IGNpocket: Did any of the assets from the development kits like the AGB Capture, or the Wide Boy, work their way into the Game Boy Player project?
Sashmoto: The hardware technology is essentially just the Game Boy Advance hardware. As far as the image processing goes, it's using the GameCube hardware. So it's a different project than the AGB Capture and the Wide Boy.
...
IGNpocket: Why did you go the route of requiring a boot disc for the Game Boy Player?
Sashmoto: For security purposes, the GameCube absolutely has to have a disc to start. So it was necessary.
IGNpocket: Does the disc have any code on it that's specific to the Game Boy Player, other than to boot it up?
Sashmoto: The boot disc has the image processing software as well as the security software. It's possible to update the disc to improve certain aspects of the Game Boy Player, if needed.
...
IGNpocket: Are there any undocumented features of the Game Boy Player that nobody's really stumbled upon yet?
Sashmoto: (laughs) It's just a Game Boy Advance system that you can play on your television. That's pretty much it. So, no secrets.
...
IGNpocket: Pokemon Box on the Game Boy Advance gives players the ability to play Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire on the GameCube without the need for a Game Boy Player. So why do we need the Game Boy Player if this is possible?
Sashmoto: Yes, that's true, but that uses software emulation. And when you think about all the hundreds and thousands of Game Boy games on the market, making the emulator compatible with all of these games wouldn't be efficient or cost effective. That's where the Game Boy Player comes in, since the system is essentially the Game Boy Advance hardware. Compatibility isn't a problem
-
adolescent wrote:
Sashmoto: The boot disc has the image processing software as well as the security software. It's possible to update the disc to improve certain aspects of the Game Boy Player, if needed.
What does that tell you? It's not 100% GBA hardware.
-
if that were the case, the GBA player would cost as much as a GBA.
No screen, no batteries... there's half your cost right there.
CPUs and the like are "Jelly Bean" parts. They're worthless compared to the cost that goes into the form factor. Check the latest prices on those Sega Genesis Direct-to-TV units. Wal-Mart recently had a sale on the 1st gen Atari Flashback for $7.50.
The GBA player application draws a selectable border around the GBA display and allows you to swap carts without shutting off the GC and rebooting.
I'd be willing to think the GC draws the border while the Player provides the underlay video. Maybe it's all done in the Player, but I doubt it.
Seeing how the borders are not part of the "emulation", I don't see what you're getting so excited about.
Cart hot-swaps are hardly magic, especially when you don't have to rely on batteries. I have a Gamecube, but not a Player, so I don't know the procedure for hot swapping the carts.
If the parrallel port can do 30 frames per second of video as well as audio while receiving controller input, then hard drive access is trivial through that port.
*cough* low resolution *cough*
What are the specs of that parallel port, again? As usual, almost anything is possible, but not always practical.
How do you explain getting back to the cartridge swap screen?
The same way the PS2 returns you to the browser when you eject a game disc, or the Amiga brings you to Guru when the CPU stops responding. This is hardly extrodinary. It's all in the firmware.
PCs could do the same if it wasn't for the bloddy real-mode BIOSes. If there weren't still millions of people running Win98 and flakey old versions of Linux, we could all just flash our computers with new BIOSes and rid ourselves of 20+ years of garbage.
If anybody knows how to emulate Nintendo hardware - it's Ninetendo.
The PC emulators I use are pretty damn good. :-)
I should hope the official Nintendo emulators are good! Remember when Nintendo was charging $20 for NES re-releases? That's a lot of cash for such old games.
Next you'll be saying that "Revolution" is going to have GC, N64, SNES and NES hardware in it because it will emulate all those machines.
GC hardware... very likely. The techniques game programmers use to write software is quite different from PC developers. True forwards compatibilty requires a bit more going on in the hardware than what happens in Windows-Land.
Anything older is trivial to emulate in software. However, the emulators will not be built into the machine, and will come with the games when you buy them. They will just be programs. The emulation quality is what makes it shine. If Nintendo's SNES emulator for Revolution is anything like Atari's official 2600 emulator for the PS2, I'll puke.
What does that tell you? It's not 100% GBA hardware.
From that article:
"Sashmoto: (laughs) It's just a Game Boy Advance system that you can play on your television. That's pretty much it. So, no secrets."
Of course, the GBA needs a BIOS. Patches for the BIOS can be read from the Gamecube disc, so that's what can be used to "improve" the player if such ROM patches aren't already available on the GBA carts.
-
@Waccoon
Can you solder?
-
Why don't you realize that os4 on the gc will never appear?. It's higly unlikely that nintendo would beg for a license to Ainc., and if it were the case, theres NO MARKET actually for os4 on a product destinated to child audiences. And not to mention the memory limitations of the console itself. It would be more realistic to get a full linux distro on the gc that OS4. OS4 is dead already if nothing changes, they have blocked the OS to this state, sadly. :madashell:
Only with a release for x86 systems could refloat the os, maybe...
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
Why don't you realize that os4 on the gc will never appear?.
While on GC was originally the point, I'd just like to see the ability to put it on any platform as an option.
It's higly unlikely that nintendo would beg for a license to Ainc.
It would/should be the other way around.
And not to mention the memory limitations of the console itself.
Limitations? 24MB of main ram is 12x more than any Amiga shipped with. 16MB of secondary ram as a 'ram disk' is nice too.
It would be more realistic to get a full linux distro on the gc
that's almost done now
OS4 is dead already if nothing changes, they have blocked the OS to this state, sadly. :madashell:
Only with a release for x86 systems could refloat the os, maybe...
Yeah, and they thought Linux would quickly dominate the x86 platform. :lol:
Honestly, a console port is probably the best way to introduce the public to 'another PC' option. Apple shot itself in the foot by choosing to be overpriced. I'm not going to pay more money for a platform with less to offer...same goes for A1. You need to run it on a game machine because most people aren't gong to dual-boot there Dell's, Gateway's, Compaq's, etc... because if they knew anything, they wouldn't have bought those and had built their own.
So having a disc they can buy for $50 and can just pop in ther 'game' machine and have it work right away is the only way to make this long-dead market grow.
Better off selling it as a new toy than the 8-track tape it's viewed as now. Hey, my mom might still have an 8-track collection. Interested? I thought not.
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Sashmoto: The boot disc has the image processing software as well as the security software. It's possible to update the disc to improve certain aspects of the Game Boy Player, if needed.
What does that tell you? It's not 100% GBA hardware.
I never said it was 100% GBA hardware. Obviously the Gameboy Player doesn't have a LCD, speaker, controls, battery holder, etc. Of course, you just do not want to admit, yet again, that you are wrong. But, we all know you are, yet again.
-
seeing as how image processing is 80% of a video game and that's sent to the GC, I don't feel any need to retract any statements. As bloodline pointed out, an old 8/16-bit cpu costs pennies to throw in there to get the game code to run on time and properly, the bulk of the work is done on the GC...hence applying some of those Super Sai video modes that the PC emulators have could have always bumped up the image quality to 640x480...hence the patch comment to improve the player. If it's already 100% GBA CPU+GPU+SPU, what could a software patch improve upon? - fancier borders around the 256x224 image?
BTW,
For all the non-trolls:
I've found an alternate 5v power source for my qoob chip. Turns out the controllers have a 5v signal to power the rumble motor. So I just tapped controller 4's source and my qoob screen came up right away. I'll be doing a linux run this weekend when I have the time. And this is much easier than the source mentioned in the docs. They should change the docs to use this source as the one they use requires a steadier hand and a magnifying glass.
Oh and the latest Linux build supports hot swapping memory cards and 1GB SD cards using the SD Gecko or a home made adapter. Enough memory for you yet? www.gc-linux.org for anyone who is interested.
-
lou_dias wrote:
seeing as how image processing is 80% of a video game and that's sent to the GC, I don't feel any need to retract any statements.
Your statements were wrong. Wether you choose to retract them is up to you.
As bloodline pointed out, an old 8/16-bit cpu costs pennies to throw in there to get the game code to run on time and properly, the bulk of the work is done on the GC...
You of all people should know that the GBA has a 32bit CPU. And, once again, you miss the point. The "bulk" of the work isn't being done on the GC, it's being done on the ARM (GBA) or Z80/8080 (CGB) CPUs.
hence applying some of those Super Sai video modes that the PC emulators have could have always bumped up the image quality to 640x480... hence the patch comment to improve the player. If it's already 100% GBA CPU+GPU+SPU, what could a software patch improve upon? - fancier borders around the 256x224 image?
Sure. Also improved/fixed scaling, Gameboy Player exclusive content, etc. But, note that an update disc has never been released so it's really moot. The disc isn't an emulator, period.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Oh and the latest Linux build supports hot swapping memory cards and 1GB SD cards using the SD Gecko or a home made adapter. Enough memory for you yet? www.gc-linux.org for anyone who is interested.
SD/MMC cards are block devices, not RAM (which is of course still limited to 24MB + 16MB). Also, the memory card slots are also on the EXI bus so they have the same speed limitations.
-
As I recall, Z80's are 8/16 bit cpu's and while ARM7 is a "32-bit" cpu, it doesn't outperform the 16-bit era cpu that was in the SNES because it's designed to be a low power mobile cpu.
Who cares? You still admit video processing is done on the GC. Give it a rest it's a stupid point just as your comment about GBA Player exclusive content - like that would make sense. It's a novelty item and didn't sell enough units to warrant an upgrade that, for instance, would use the BBA as a "link" cable for multiplayer GBA games...but that would mean that it was emulated again now wouldn't it.
About the SD cards:
Yes, I know it's EXI. The 4 controllers, RTC, and 2 memory cards are all on that interface, again - so what? Tell me OS4 wouldn't fit on a 1GB SD card for booting? And the core bios could reside on my 2MB qoob chip's flashram that could boot using the SD card as a ram drive - just like my linux build will.
It would boot in seconds. And it's looking better all the time.
BTW,
Progressive scan mode games such as Metroid Prime (and most of the others I have) look incredible on my widescreen DLP HDTV television using the GC - the detail in the texturing is amazing. It would certainly made a worthy display for an Amiga OS. Leaps and bounds better than any 1084-like monitor I've ever seen - and 50" to boot.
Soon I'll be running GC-homebrew native as well as linux SNES and Genesis/Masterdrive emulators on my GC off of an SD card using the 'Cube's controllers.
-
Can you solder?
I've built a number of circuit boards over the years and modified my mice and joysticks. I also make my own headphone amps for all my computers, since I can't stand speakers. I've never tried changing traces on a surface-mount PCB, though.
Lou: Limitations? 24MB of main ram is 12x more than any Amiga shipped with.
Still living in the early 90's, eh?
I'm still confused as to what you want your AmigaCube to be. An update for existing Amigas or a next-gen platform? Given that you keep comparing it to the AmigaOne, I assume the latter, and Gamecube is pretty pathetic in that respect. Revolution may not be so bad, but with enough mods to make it usable as a PC, it'll probably cost as much as a cheap PC, too. And, there's still the question of binary compatibility and all that stuff.
Lou: Yeah, and they thought Linux would quickly dominate the x86 platform
Only people who don't understand why Windows remains so popular would think this. Given that almost every alternative desktop OS vendor has bit the dust, that includes a lot of people.
Linux has no central design management. Standards only apply to protocols, not interfaces. It'll never dominate the market until someone does to Linux what Apple did to UNIX.
Of course, Linux fans are perfectly happy with its underdog status as it is. I see Linux permanently riding on the coat tails of Windows, but never getting ahead. Linux and Windows have entirely different design principles, and ordinary people don't care about technical supiriority.
Nobody wants a revolutionary OS. Developers want good tools and end users want products. This is why Java has managed to survive even though its performance and reliability is questionable. It has a huge number of tools and it's easy to write software for it.
Lou: Apple shot itself in the foot by choosing to be overpriced.
Really? Since Jobs came back to Apple, it looks like they're doing pretty damn well. Apple fans have always sucked up the high prices without too much huff, and that includes their embedded devices, too, like iPod. $300 is pretty expensive for a music player, but people bought it anyway.
Lou: So having a disc they can buy for $50 and can just pop in ther 'game' machine and have it work right away is the only way to make this long-dead market grow.
Fully-integrated form factors, only. An OS is a completely different beast. I'm sure PC vendors would love to make cheap boxes like Gamecube. There must be a reason why they don't. You can hardly blame the generic PC architecture for this failing, given what Apple did with the Mac mini.
Lou: hence applying some of those Super Sai video modes that the PC emulators have could have always bumped up the image quality to 640x480
You know, it makes me wonder why Nintendo doesn't do this. It seems pretty cheap to just stream a low-res video feed and mono audio through the Gamecube when you could use all that CPU power to enhance the video or add some audio enhancement. The option they took (and Sony took with their PSX backwards compatibility) seems like a cheap cop-out.
But, hey, so long as people buy it...
Lou: I've found an alternate 5v power source for my qoob chip.
Nintendo emulation... Game Boy Advance... alternate power sources...
Would you please get back on topic? This thread is supposed to be about alternate PPC machines.
adolscent: But, note that an update disc has never been released so it's really moot.
Good point. Capability is nothing if its not exploited.
Lou: Enough memory for you yet?
Call it what it is: storage, not memory.
-
Give it a rest it's a stupid point just as your comment about GBA Player exclusive content - like that would make sense.
Your point is that the Gamecube is doing emulation rather than the Player containing GBA hardware. This is not the case, so stop calling other people stupid.
It would boot in seconds. And it's looking better all the time.
AmigaOS is not a very robust OS. It boots in seconds because it doesn't do all the stuff a modern OS should.
Oh, look, MS-DOS boots in seconds, too.
-
@Waccoon,
I was going to ask you to come look at my soldering since you don't live to far away. That's why I asked. But I've got my qoob chip working now. My qoob chip is on-topic as that is what is allowing me to boot to linux in less than a second. You are still welcome to come over this weekend and instal linux on my GC and linux apps like the mfe etc...
My interests in the qoob chip are not about piracy, but about running homebrew code and linux. I've also bought and installed the case mod that lets me fit 12cm discs in the cube.
I'll be ordering a batch of SD Gecko's and selling them to the GC mod community and on eBay as that wonderful (and promised) product never made it to the states. It is compatible with many GC games as it is so it's not just for homebrew software.
In the end, I'm doing my part one step at a time instead of just sitting here and complaining. Soon I'll be compiling some code. I have the source to an Atari 5200 emulator that uses SDL and since these tools (and gcc) exist on the GC, I'll make my contribution.
What most users want is an OS that just does what a user wants. Win98 runs fast on an 800MHz cpu with 256MB of ram, Win2000 and XP don't. Why? Don't answer. OS's are getting too complicated and are doing things to protect average users from themselves. OS3.X is a good enough OS for a single user with some updates. Hence I am looking at hopefully someday installing AROS native on my GC.
A while ago I painted a picture of what I wanted. A GC running AROS and a web browser and email client and games. I can check my mail from home, then hop in my car and plug my GC into a 7" LCD screen mounted in the car and hit the road. Stop at Dunkin Donuts and check my email there via a BBA->wireless adapter I have. Then play some games or surf the web to pass the time on long road trips. All this running off of a couple of SD cards that I use for "storage". The device is truly portable and there aren't any hard drives that would get banged around and ruined. Get where I'm going?
Did I mention that the qoob chip comes with built in mp3 player that reads from the DVD drive? That's alot of versatility in a small package. That's the sweet.
-
Win98 runs fast on an 800MHz cpu with 256MB of ram, Win2000 and XP don't. Why? Don't answer.
I think I will.
I replaced Win98 with Win2K on my brother-in-law's laptop, and it runs much, much faster than Win98 ever did. It's a 1Gz system with 256MB of RAM.
It just depends how you set it up.
OS's are getting too complicated and are doing things to protect average users from themselves.
It's unfair to say OSes in general are getting to complicated. It really depends on the customer and how much capability you want to stuff into the system.
When you're talking about ordinary people, hiding as much of the underlying OS as possible is supposed to be a "good thing." Most developers just take the idea overboard and try to tweak a design until it's perfect, which, of course, never happens. Windows has always been this way, and desktop managers for Linux are becoming like this. Raw Linux is very fast and efficient. A typical Linux distro these days comes on several CDs, requires a Gig of hard drive space, and takes two minutes to boot up. I know -- I've tried 8 distros and don't like any of them.
When talking about power users, they tend to be fiercely traditional and shun high-level interfaces. They don't tweak or redesign anything. You end up with a very quick, simple OS that requires users to spoon-feed everything to the system manually. AmigaOS is very much like this if you think about it, though not anywhere near as bad as UNIX.
Of course, the majority of the complexity is due to eye candy. There's so much junk running in the background that people just don't need. If you strip the inactive junk out of an XP system, it really is a lot less complicated than Win95 is. Windows is and always will be a resource hog, but I can get it running comfortably in 80 Megs of memory. I could probably get it running in less than that, but it's been a while since I've used a machine with less than 128Meg of memory. :-)
OS3.X is a good enough OS for a single user with some updates.
Good enough? To do what?
Given how few tools are available, and the fact that OS3 doesn't have proper resource tracking or memory protection, it's fair to say OS3 is more of an application launcher rather than an OS... at least by modern standards. The apps do everything and the OS does hardly anything, much like old Macs. If that's your expectation of a modern OS, well, you can really use anything.
A GC running AROS and a web browser and email client and games.
Well, the reason why your setup is so simple is because of your expectations. E-mail is just text transfer. Games don't need an OS -- they just hit the hardware. The browser is complicated because of heavy multitasking, and I'd imagine AROS is going to give you some trouble in that regard. Is there even a CSS web browser available for AROS?
You can do this stuff with a Windows machine, too, if you know how to select your parts. I'd expect it to be just as cheap, if not cheaper, than your system. How much did you pay for this qoob thing, again? Didn't you have some trouble soldering it? Why go through all the trouble of hacking when there's ready-built solutions available? Amigans don't seem to get this at all.
The device is truly portable and there aren't any hard drives that would get banged around and ruined. Get where I'm going?
Oh, so you don't want a potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP. You want a homebrew PDA. I think the computer industry already released a slew of those devices a decade ago. What's the point of insisting on an Amiga if you're going to spend all your time staring at an application that doesn't really care what OS is underneath? I find it difficult to believe that AmigaOS (or AROS) is just "better" at e-mail and web browsing than any other small OS that fits nicely on a flash card.
-
This thread is really starting to loose track. Since when did AmigaOS stop being an OS? Sure it doesn't have any resource-tracking or memory-protection, but how does that equate into more work for the processes? It handles scheduling transparently and handles hardware abstraction for the processes. It sure does meet any definition of an OS as long as that definition doesnt require a built-in css capable internet-browser - in other words any serious definition.
If you want a example of a application launcher - take a look at the C64 basic or MS-DOS.
/Patrik
-
Given how few tools are available, and the fact that OS3 doesn't have proper resource tracking or memory protection, it's fair to say OS3 is more of an application launcher rather than an OS... at least by modern standards. The apps do everything and the OS does hardly anything, much like old Macs. If that's your expectation of a modern OS, well, you can really use anything.
AmigaOS kernel is *nothing at all* like the old macos. It may not have memory protection, but that does not disqualify it from being an OS.
As for resource tracking, there are some, albeit for very low level stuff. For example memory pools mean I don't have to actually track specific memory allocation. I can release the entire pool in one go.
-edit-
Comparing it to classic 68K mac OS suggests some lack of understanding of both systems.
Since when on amigaos did you ever need to specify the amount of heap for a program? Since when did any amigaos task have to relinquish the CPU to allow another one to run? The 'cooperative multitasking' model employed in macos simply isn't multitasking at all, whereas the amiga always had a preemptive model.
-
Waccoon wrote:
OS3.X is a good enough OS for a single user with some updates.
Good enough? To do what?
To do what I mentioned.
A GC running AROS and a web browser and email client and games.
Well, the reason why your setup is so simple is because of your expectations. E-mail is just text transfer. Games don't need an OS -- they just hit the hardware. The browser is complicated because of heavy multitasking, and I'd imagine AROS is going to give you some trouble in that regard. Is there even a CSS web browser available for AROS?
You can do this stuff with a Windows machine, too, if you know how to select your parts. I'd expect it to be just as cheap, if not cheaper, than your system. How much did you pay for this qoob thing, again? Didn't you have some trouble soldering it? Why go through all the trouble of hacking when there's ready-built solutions available? Amigans don't seem to get this at all.
the qoob was $55, it's 6 wires to solder and just screws to takes apart the GC. It can be done in less than 10 minutes. I used a 30 watt iron when I should have used 15, left heat on the pad too long. Simple mistake if I had read the reviews of other people doing it, it wouldn't have happened. My solution is better AND easier than the other way anyway.
there is no ready-built solution, a PDA is not a game machine and doesn't use DVD's, a laptop is too delicate to be bounced around in a car everyday, plus it's bigger than a GC. And if the GC breaks (RARE) a second GC is $50 away, not $700 for a descent laptop.
The device is truly portable and there aren't any hard drives that would get banged around and ruined. Get where I'm going?
Oh, so you don't want a potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP. You want a homebrew PDA. I think the computer industry already released a slew of those devices a decade ago. What's the point of insisting on an Amiga if you're going to spend all your time staring at an application that doesn't really care what OS is underneath? I find it difficult to believe that AmigaOS (or AROS) is just "better" at e-mail and web browsing than any other small OS that fits nicely on a flash card.
[/quote]
An OS used to be an app launcher with a filemanager. What they sell you now is a total user environment. Things are so integrated that you don't get 100% processing power out of the machine because you have the OS layer there. An OS should just control basic things like threading and memnory management - everything else is an add-on (read - slow down). Sure the OS provides some standard api's to make things 'look' & 'feel' like they are part of the OS, but that should be it. When I want to bang the hardware, I should be able to bang the hardware. And it's not about being better, it's about being functional and doing what I want - nothing less, nothing more.
PS, the Amiga was only supposed to be a console.
-
Update:
Linux boots on my Gamecube and connects to my PC's NDBserver for the filesystem...
However, I couldn't SSH the GC from my PC using Putty. I think it's just a gateway setting though. I'll play with it some more this week.
-
Karlos wrote:
Given how few tools are available, and the fact that OS3 doesn't have proper resource tracking or memory protection, it's fair to say OS3 is more of an application launcher rather than an OS... at least by modern standards. The apps do everything and the OS does hardly anything, much like old Macs. If that's your expectation of a modern OS, well, you can really use anything.
AmigaOS kernel is *nothing at all* like the old macos. It may not have memory protection, but that does not disqualify it from being an OS.
As for resource tracking, there are some, albeit for very low level stuff. For example memory pools mean I don't have to actually track specific memory allocation. I can release the entire pool in one go.
-edit-
Comparing it to classic 68K mac OS suggests some lack of understanding of both systems.
Since when on amigaos did you ever need to specify the amount of heap for a program? Since when did any amigaos task have to relinquish the CPU to allow another one to run? The 'cooperative multitasking' model employed in macos simply isn't multitasking at all, whereas the amiga always had a preemptive model.
Don't forget that MacOS 68k, actually used 68k exceptions to implement system calls :-o
-
bloodline wrote:
Don't forget that MacOS 68k, actually used 68k exceptions to implement system calls :-o
True, I forgot about that. Well, I suppose they had to get into supervisor mode somehow :lol:
-
Don't most operating systems use an exception/software interrupt for OS calls? How does Amiga OS do it? Short of everything running in supervisor mode I don't see any way around it.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
Don't most operating systems use an exception/software interrupt for OS calls? How does Amiga OS do it? Short of everything running in supervisor mode I don't see any way around it.
In AmigaOS system calls are simple jumps to an address... alomst everthing is run in User Mode, AFAIK Supervisor Mode is only used for context switching, and most often that is caused by an interupt (which runs in Superviosr Mode anyway)
-
bloodline wrote:
In AmigaOS system calls are simple jumps to an address... alomst everthing is run in User Mode, AFAIK Supervisor Mode is only used for context switching, and most often that is caused by an interupt (which runs in Superviosr Mode anyway)
Interrupts (well you already said), and traps are the other things that run in supervisor mode. Task exceptions too maybe (not sure about that one, I'd need to check). As you say, just about everything else runs in user mode, which is a good thing IMO. Every time apple moved to a new 68K CPU there were all sorts of minor OS level issues, invariably fixed by getting different roms...
-
This thread still going?
Well as the subjects of homebrew PDA's, consoles and Linux have all come up perhaps this might provoke some more debate: http://www.gbax.com/main.pl (http://www.gbax.com/main.pl)
A dual 200Mhz portable Amiga? :inquisitive:
-
@lou_dias
Regarding this daydream of your GC "Amiga"... Wake up already, nothing will happen unless if YOU do something about it. No one else will. Meanwhile, there is no need to try spam this thread further.
This OT discussion should be posted as new threads.
And no, I won't take the bait. Artificially bumping the thread to top of the forum is {bleep}ing lame.
I might seem a bit stressed, but my tolerance to bs has lowered lately. Sorry about that.
-
Piru wrote:
@lou_dias
Regarding this daydream of your GC "Amiga"... Wake up already, nothing will happen unless if YOU do something about it. No one else will. Meanwhile, there is no need to try spam this thread further.
This OT discussion should be posted as new threads.
You woke me up for that babble? :-?
If you want the thread moved, complain to a moderator, otherwise, just stay out.
I'm going back to sleep now. :-D
Oh and I can't seem to connect to my 'Cube using an SSH client. It seems I need a better Linux distribution as some things are failing to initialize. Although it does connect to my filesystem properly. I think part of the problem is that I may not have my network settings properly set up on the PC side. I don't know if I should assign the GC's gateway as the ip of the NIC that it's connected to or the ip of my DHCP enabled router...Or the ip of the card that's actually wired to the router...
-
Maybe i'm a wierdo, but i play games on my gamecube.... Running AOS4 on my game cube would make it less usefull to me... If i could install AOS4 on one of the 6 macs i got laying around, now that would be cool.
-
Piru wrote:
And no, I won't take the bait. Artificially bumping the thread to top of the forum is {bleep}ing lame.
OOhh Stressed! ...Just relax a little... ..computers are fun after all. If this thread is making you feel angry then do something else.
Ditto on the Mac comment Koaftder.
-
Piru wrote:
This OT discussion should be posted as new threads.
And no, I won't take the bait. Artificially bumping the thread to top of the forum is {bleep}ing lame.
Sorry that was me. I wasn't really paying attention and just commented about the interrupt thing :-/
-
Karlos wrote:
Piru wrote:
This OT discussion should be posted as new threads.
And no, I won't take the bait. Artificially bumping the thread to top of the forum is {bleep}ing lame.
Sorry that was me. I wasn't really paying attention and just commented about the interrupt thing :-/
Actually I would say that was on topic.
There interrupts are the base of any OS.
The 1.7MB linux kernal boots up in my GC and connects to my ndbserver in less than 7 seconds total.
A much smaller Amiga OS 3.x ported to PPC or AROS PPC could do the same much faster... Even combining the 512k 3.1 ROMS with the OS bootup, AOS3.1 takes up ~768k. That's more than enough to fit on my modchip's flashram and that just gets copied to mainram on bootup...if it were ported...
Now, I don't know anything about WarpUp or any of those PPC hack-ons... But are they running a AOS on the PPC side? Or are they just a co-processor set-up?
-
how to make a bootable disc on the Gamecube to run homebrew/IPL replacement code:
http://www.gc-linux.org/wiki/Building_a_Bootable_Disc
-
lou_dias wrote:
Karlos wrote:
Piru wrote:
This OT discussion should be posted as new threads.
And no, I won't take the bait. Artificially bumping the thread to top of the forum is {bleep}ing lame.
Sorry that was me. I wasn't really paying attention and just commented about the interrupt thing :-/
Actually I would say that was on topic.
There interrupts are the base of any OS.
The 1.7MB linux kernal boots up in my GC and connects to my ndbserver in less than 7 seconds total.
A much smaller Amiga OS 3.x ported to PPC or AROS PPC could do the same much faster... Even combining the 512k 3.1 ROMS with the OS bootup, AOS3.1 takes up ~768k. That's more than enough to fit on my modchip's flashram and that just gets copied to mainram on bootup...if it were ported...
Now, I don't know anything about WarpUp or any of those PPC hack-ons... But are they running a AOS on the PPC side? Or are they just a co-processor set-up?
There is no set rule that an OS has to use software interrupts to provide services, and not all processors have instructions for software based interrupts.
-
Yeah, to say the GC's CPU couldn't be used to run an OS is just a trollish statement. All CPU's have interrupts. People critisize the GC's 486Mhz speed and power and completely ignore the ultra low latency T1 Mosys RAM that the GC has that obliterates SDRAM in performance. I think it also has a 1MB cache. The GPU has 3 MB of texture memory that allow for generating and texturing polygons in a single pass rather than the separate passes required by other GPU's. The drive is lightning fast as well. Again, it's about low seek times not raw max streaming that is rarely achieved when other platforms post there "theoretical" yet completely unrealistic system specs.
The GC was designed to be responsive. To run at maximum efficiency at all times. This seems like the perfect platform to run a multi-tasking OS.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yeah, to say the GC's CPU couldn't be used to run an OS is just a trollish statement. All CPU's have interrupts. People critisize the GC's 486Mhz speed and power and completely ignore the ultra low latency T1 Mosys RAM that the GC has that obliterates SDRAM in performance. I think it also has a 1MB cache. The GPU has 3 MB of texture memory that allow for generating and texturing polygons in a single pass rather than the separate passes required by other GPU's. The drive is lightning fast as well. Again, it's about low seek times not raw max streaming that is rarely achieved when other platforms post there "theoretical" yet completely unrealistic system specs.
The GC was designed to be responsive. To run at maximum efficiency at all times. This seems like the perfect platform to run a multi-tasking OS.
The comments regarding putting an OS on the game cube were more like, "Why bother" then "you cant". Lets face it, the gamecube is a highly specialized piece of equipment designed for running video games. Shure, some guys shoehorned linux on it but it's still not very usefull. No harddisk, you gotta NFS mount a volume over your network if you want storage. The display interface is low resolution, designed for use with a television set. ( who wants to use their computer with a lorez tv?) The memory may be fast but theres only 40mb of it and no way to expand it.
Basically what you have is a limited computer that requires another computer to provide services for it, and a network to be usefull.
Video game consoles tend to have a life of around 3-5 years, with each new version being a completely new hardware architecture. Basicaly it's a one time hardware platform.
In the end, it costs more trying to use a game console as a general purpose computer, all the sh*t you have to buy, the other machine to provide it with services, all the time people will have to spend porting code every 3-5 years, etc, etc. And you still end up with a machine that cant run most apps without serious modification of the code base to get it to work with such limited memory, a display interface that get like 480 lines on a tv ( would you like to browse the web at such a low resolution? )
And for the record, not all processors have interrupts! I'm currently working with a platform that has hardware interrupts, but no software interrupts. I am aware of several processor architectures that have neither hardware interrupts or software interrupts. Theres a lot of cores out there, interesting stuff.
-
Well, you missed my posts about it being extremely portable and as the center-piece of a car's entertainment system at a low cost.
Also, you say it's low resolution, 720x480 in progressive scan looks great on my 50" DLP widescreen TV. Also, 720x480 looks great on a 7" in-dash widescreen LCD. Considering the Amiga was made for 640x200 or a flickering 640x400, going to 720x480 progressive doesn't sound like alot on paper but in the real world it's a world of difference.
Also, I'm not looking for it to be my main PC. But it could be a way to re-introduce people to the Amiga and like I said be a baby-version of OS4. Let them get their feet wet for the day when suitable hardware exists to host OS4.
You can purchase dedicated NFS devices that involve no PC at all
You can make or buy SD card adapter that read AND write to even the latest 1GB cards. you can make one out of an old GC 4Mbit $5 memory card and an SD card socket. Again, the idea here is portability and reliability.
The DVD drive is always there that holds 2CD's worth of reliable information, though some have claimed to write up to 3GB on full-size DVD's using the case mod. It seems like the head has room to move all the way out to 12cm if you look at it.
A modded GC seems like quite a capable AROS box. Isn't the point of AROS to moderize AOS 3.1 and move it to a platform that can expand the market?
Oh and personally, I'm not going to blow $400 on a new 360/PS3/Revolution and hack it to run AROS. I'd much rather hack into a $60 Gamecube that I've owned for 4 years and I can take anywhere and not worry about theft or damage.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, you missed my posts about it being extremely portable and as the center-piece of a car's entertainment system at a low cost.
Also, you say it's low resolution, 720x480 in progressive scan looks great on my 50" DLP widescreen TV. Also, 720x480 looks great on a 7" in-dash widescreen LCD. Considering the Amiga was made for 640x200 or a flickering 640x400, going to 720x480 progressive doesn't sound like alot on paper but in the real world it's a world of difference.
Also, I'm not looking for it to be my main PC. But it could be a way to re-introduce people to the Amiga and like I said be a baby-version of OS4. Let them get their feet wet for the day when suitable hardware exists to host OS4.
You can purchase dedicated NFS devices that involve no PC at all
You can make or buy SD card adapter that read AND write to even the latest 1GB cards. you can make one out of an old GC 4Mbit $5 memory card and an SD card socket. Again, the idea here is portability and reliability.
The DVD drive is always there that holds 2CD's worth of reliable information, though some have claimed to write up to 3GB on full-size DVD's using the case mod. It seems like the head has room to move all the way out to 12cm if you look at it.
A modded GC seems like quite a capable AROS box. Isn't the point of AROS to moderize AOS 3.1 and move it to a platform that can expand the market?
Oh and personally, I'm not going to blow $400 on a new 360/PS3/Revolution and hack it to run AROS. I'd much rather hack into a $60 Gamecube that I've owned for 4 years and I can take anywhere and not worry about theft or damage.
As long as your having a good time hacking it, thats all that counts. :-)
I'd say why bother with aros or AOS 4 on gamecube. You already have linux on there, and with linux you have software avaiable to you to do almost anything. With AOS4 or aros you will be able to do a lot less...
-
Well, it comes down to preference I guess. Linux is too 'ix for me. The average lazy user (myself included) doesn't care for linux or anything dos-like that involves lots of config filed that need to be edited...etc... Just give me a simple gui that works. That's AOS 3.1, that's the vision behind AROS.
I'm playing with Linux as a proof of concept. As I am a Windows developer using Visual Studio, I am quite put off my having to create these make files to recompile xyz to make it work with configuration abc.
And I'm for moving THIS platform forward, not Linux.
-
koaftder wrote:
I'd say why bother with aros or AOS 4 on gamecube. You already have linux on there, and with linux you have software avaiable to you to do almost anything. With AOS4 or aros you will be able to do a lot less...
True. Stack a ton of GC's in a rack and with the right software you could make a nice rendering farm. Having said that I would like OS4 on my GC if it was capable... ..just because I could. No logic I know but that's Amiga fandom for you.
-
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010516S0056
The GameCube team chose to build off the existing PowerPC design to leverage the available tool chain, such as compilers and optimizers. IBM claims this has given developers a jump on creating new games. "Developers have been making software for the GameCube a long time before people knew we were doing the silicon," said IBM's West. "If you were to take code written for a PowerPC you could essentially run it on this device. We didn't deviate from what is a well-understood architecture by a large amount."
Incase anyone still doesn't think the GC's cpu is a real PPC.
-
It's a cutted down/custom PPC, not a stock one.
And for the other question, how many GC's would be needed to make up a rendering farm?. Wouldn't be cheaper using a Indy or similar workstation, because you would need a copy of os4 for each gamecube, and that imply if you have 50 gc's you would need 50 os4 licences. Mmmmm.. not so cheap i think.
Just my two cents.
-
if you read the article it describes the changes structurally as mostly on the integer processing.
floating point processing enhanced
if you read www.gc-dev.com's forums they use standard PPC cross-compilers to run homebrew code with some config file to take advantage of the extra instructions...
standard PPC compiled code runs just fine
this is another '+' for the GC and Revolution as a platform for OS4 and/or AROS PPC
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
And for the other question, how many GC's would be needed to make up a rendering farm?. Wouldn't be cheaper using a Indy or similar workstation, because you would need a copy of os4 for each gamecube, and that imply if you have 50 gc's you would need 50 os4 licences. Mmmmm.. not so cheap i think.
Just my two cents.
I never said anything about doing the render farm with OS4. Try Linux, that would keep the cost down. As I said OS4 on GC isn't logical, but if it's capable I would install it just beause I could.
-
Judging from this:
http://www.geofront.co.uk/mac/amigaos4.html
I'd say 24 + 16 MB of ram will let you run 3 or 4 "modern" apps at the same time before memory starts becoming an issue...
-
Amazing news from www.maxconsole.net
BREAKING NEWS: Viper-GC Extreme Details Emerge!
We've received a few pictures of Viper GC Extreme from the Viper Team. It will come in two parts. The chip itself will have 16Mbit flash, two connectors (programming & GC wires) and extended features compatible with Viper GC. The other part is the Viper USB Adapter. It can be used to flash the Viper GC Extreme and regular Viper GC. But here comes the kick-ass part: it can be plugged in the Modem/BBA slot of the GC to provide USB full-speed bidirectionnal communication. We're told it is extremely easy & powerful for coders and that a few lines of code are enough to send or received data.
That's everything!
-
lou_dias wrote:
Amazing news from www.maxconsole.net
BREAKING NEWS: Viper-GC Extreme Details Emerge!
We've received a few pictures of Viper GC Extreme from the Viper Team. It will come in two parts. The chip itself will have 16Mbit flash, two connectors (programming & GC wires) and extended features compatible with Viper GC. The other part is the Viper USB Adapter. It can be used to flash the Viper GC Extreme and regular Viper GC. But here comes the kick-ass part: it can be plugged in the Modem/BBA slot of the GC to provide USB full-speed bidirectionnal communication. We're told it is extremely easy & powerful for coders and that a few lines of code are enough to send or received data.
That's everything!
Except it probably makes the Gamecube a USB slave and not a USB host. Unlike firewire, USB is a host centric protocol and two slave devices cannot talk to each other. So assuming I'm correct this would not allow you to attach say a USB hard drive.
I'd say 24 + 16 MB of ram will let you run 3 or 4 "modern" apps at the same time before memory starts becoming an issue...
If you scroll down, you'll notice the machine in question has 256MB of RAM. Looking at the top screen where no programs are running you'll notice that only 205,307,280 bytes are free which comes out to about 196MB. That's 60MB of RAM being consumed before he even starts a single foreground application. I really don't see how that's going to fit into the GC's memory.
AROS would fit quite well and there's even a small chance it might see a Gamecube port someday (You could alway start a bounty after all).
-
I would be willing to start a bounty.
how does that work? Do I have to put up the money up front in some AROS-dev team controlled account or do I just pay up when it's completed.
A Gamecube AROS-MAX PPC DVD iso would be great. My mod chip lets me boot right from DVD.
Heck, I can launch apps from SD card too...and there a read/write api already.
Storage is not an issue with me anyway as a network file server can be purchased stand-alone or running off my PC. I already know it's more than fast enough despite what some people on this site will tell you. If it's fast enough for the business environment, it's fast enough for you and me.
EDIT:
Author says there will be a host and slave mode:
http://www.gcdev.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1511
JOY!
-
That just makes no sense. If you want to code anything for worldwide usage, you need a license from nintendo to do it, if not, all the efforts would be illegal(remember accolade case vs. sega?).
First ask nintendo if they allow you or the one who will make the port, and then begin work. I'm not trying to give your mind away, but that project seems impossible one at the moment.
Cheers.
-
lou_dias wrote:
how does that work? Do I have to put up the money up front in some AROS-dev team controlled account or do I just pay up when it's completed.
I think the money is given up front to prevent people from backing out at the last minute. I would start a thread over at aros-exec.org to refine the wording of your bounty before submission and get the exact procedure.
Storage is not an issue with me anyway as a network file server can be purchased stand-alone or running off my PC. I already know it's more than fast enough despite what some people on this site will tell you. If it's fast enough for the business environment, it's fast enough for you and me.
Keep in mind that network support in AROS is somewhat immature. You can use FTP, but I'm not sure whether there is a SMB or NFS client yet. Hard to say what kind of networking it will have by the time the port is done.
Author says there will be a host and slave mode:
http://www.gcdev.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1511
Too bad it doesn't use the Hi Speed port the Gameboy Player uses. As it stands it would seem that the only way to have USB and Ethernet would be to use a USB ethernet adapter which has the disadvantage of additional overhead and not working with current software compatible with the BBA.
That just makes no sense. If you want to code anything for worldwide usage, you need a license from nintendo to do it, if not, all the efforts would be illegal(remember accolade case vs. sega?).
Accolade largely won that case. The only thing that got them into trouble is they didn't follow proper clean room procedures when they did their reverse engineering and copied some of Sega's code verbatim. There's nothing illegal about making homebrew for game consoles as long as you don't violate copyright in the process.
-
Actually the only thing illegal to my knowledge it if I were using the mod chip to make illegal copies of software or using code from Nintendo's own developer's kit without a proper license then it would be illegal.
All code on the homebrew scene has been reverse engineered. That is perfectly legal.
ps,
I am importing 50 SD card adapters for the Gamecube (minimum order). I have received interest in these from a number of people on the gcdev.com forums so I bit the bullet and took a chance and did an international money transfer. Here is the url with tracking information. So it looks like I ain't getting screwed so far.
http://app1.hongkongpost.com/CGI/mt/e_detail.jsp?mail_type=ems_out&tracknbr=EE689048961HK&localno=EE689048961HK
These were an Asian market product only. Only 2 Nintendo games are actually compatible with it: Animal Crossing and Doshin The Giant. So it's basically for homebrew developers. If anyone needs one, I should have them next week.
@MskoDestny
In those screen shots, I assumed 256MB and that 64MB were dedicated/designated as "chip ram" and 192MB to fast ram so it looked to me like memory useage was much smaller. Maybe the author can correct us. I'll post about that on his thread.
-
Wow, I just stumbled upon this:
http://www.sandisk.com/pressrelease/20050106a.htm
combine the SD card adapater with this product and now you can hook up any USB device to a gamecube.
Now you've got your USB storage and your ethernet.
That's everything.
here's an 80GB USB 2.0 hard drive for $83 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1538966&CatId=530
-
That SD card cannot be used as a USB host. It's just an SD card that can double as a USB flash drive.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Wow, I just stumbled upon this:
http://www.sandisk.com/pressrelease/20050106a.htm
combine the SD card adapater with this product and now you can hook up any USB device to a gamecube.
Now you've got your USB storage and your ethernet.
That's everything.
here's an 80GB USB 2.0 hard drive for $83 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1538966&CatId=530
Yea, great. So where are the drivers? Wheres the OS port? Go learn C, post back when you are able to do more than "Wouldnt it be great if?". Generally speaking, nobody cares.
-
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Wow, I just stumbled upon this:
http://www.sandisk.com/pressrelease/20050106a.htm
combine the SD card adapater with this product and now you can hook up any USB device to a gamecube.
Now you've got your USB storage and your ethernet.
That's everything.
here's an 80GB USB 2.0 hard drive for $83 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1538966&CatId=530
Yea, great. So where are the drivers? Wheres the OS port? Go learn C, post back when you are able to do more than "Wouldnt it be great if?". Generally speaking, nobody cares.
Hey, if you don't care, then don't read and more importantly don't post.
As for drivers... there is a c library, libogc, that has a read/write api for SD cards for homebrew code.
on Linux
The MMC/SD card kernel block driver has been updated to support read/write mode . It also supports now hot-plugging cards, thanks to new functionality added to the EXI layer.
from www.gc-linux.org :-P
-
MskoDestny wrote:
That SD card cannot be used as a USB host. It's just an SD card that can double as a USB flash drive.
oops read it too fast...I'll find one though...
-
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18784
I'm staying out of this thread even though it re-iterates alot of why I want a GC port.
Anyway, I have received the SD Gecko cards. If anyone is interested in one, email me.
-
At work this week, I witnessed a 64MB Windows Mobile PDA running internet explorer. The system has no hard drive or extra memory in it other than the built-in 192k ROM. Cache was only invented to load pages you visit often faster back then. With today's internet access speeds, a web cache is not required.
Back in '96, I was using IBrowse on my 6 meg CD32+SX-1 system to get on the web and only at about 14.4kbs! I eventually upgraded to 33.3 and 56k, but by then I was on the PC with 32 or 64 megs of ram.
So I say a GC running AOS can be quite useful for mobile (in car) gaming and simple web surfing + email.
-
i have witnessed a really really long lived thread on amiga.org by a guy named lou_dias who really really freakin wants to run amigaos on a games machine :-D
-
i wonder what the longest running thread on amiga.org is?
-
dude do you dig this thread up every time you find something interesting? you can start a new thread you know. they let you do that :-o
-
KThunder wrote:
dude do you dig this thread up every time you find something interesting? you can start a new thread you know. they let you do that :-o
Wouldn't that be worse?
Besides it goes along the lines of 40MB isn't enough memory to do anything with a Gamecube...which ofcourse is B.S. as Amigas have been doing plenty with 2MB and a floppy. Heck back in the day, a 20MB HD was huge...
Oh, and I have SD Gecko memory card adapters in stock incase anyone is interested. I've shipped some out to a couple of GC developers and they are happy.
http://www.gcdev.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1493&start=30
-
KThunder wrote:
dude do you dig this thread up every time you find something interesting? you can start a new thread you know. they let you do that :-o
But then he wouldnt have the thrill of seeing his latest troll at the top of the pile *again*. The threads message count increases by one, the post count on the user account increases by one. The total views increases by several with each troll. Oh my, the excitement!
-
lou_dias wrote:
KThunder wrote:
dude do you dig this thread up every time you find something interesting? you can start a new thread you know. they let you do that :-o
Wouldn't that be worse?
IIRC, Wayne once suggested that very long threads were not so good for the system backend, taking a long time to process etc.
-edit-
As this is post 404 in this topic it would have been amusing were it to vanish or something :-)
-
Everything you always wanted to know about the PPC chip inside the GC but didn't know you could ask:
http://voxel.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/gc-linux/06ibm-gekko.pdf
ps,
I'm staying on topic. If all the useless comments were removed from the thread, I wouldn't complain...
-
lou_dias wrote:
Everything you always wanted to know about the PPC chip inside the GC but didn't know you could ask:
http://voxel.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/gc-linux/06ibm-gekko.pdf
ps,
I'm staying on topic. If all the useless comments were removed from the thread, I wouldn't complain...
from the link:
Could not read file.
Go back. /home/ftp/pub/sourceforge//s/so/sourceforge/gc-linux/06ibm-gekko.pdf
Nov 17, 2005 19:13
-
lou_dias wrote:
At work this week, I witnessed a 64MB Windows Mobile PDA running internet explorer. The system has no hard drive or extra memory in it other than the built-in 192k ROM. Cache was only invented to load pages you visit often faster back then. With today's internet access speeds, a web cache is not required.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure most Windows Mobile PDAs have more than 192K of Flash and/or ROM to boot off of.
That said, unless you plan on running Windows Mobile on your Gamecube, I don't see how this is particularly relevant to whether or not the Gamecube can do anything useful running Amiga OS 4 (or even linux for that matter) internetwise. The Nokia 770 Internet tablet (which runs linux) supposedly struggles with some pages with 64MB of RAM.
AROS will run in a tiny memory frootprint, but it doesn't currently have anything that remotely resembles a modern web browser.
-
Besides it goes along the lines of 40MB isn't enough memory to do anything with a Gamecube...which ofcourse is B.S. as Amigas have been doing plenty with 2MB and a floppy. Heck back in the day, a 20MB HD was huge...
40MB of RAM and 20MB HD was huge when we were using Workbench in 4 colours and tiny 640x256 resolutions. Start using Amiga on 1600x1200x32 resolution, launch web browser and oops, 40MB is gone.
Programs are not getting bigger but data is.
And no, nobody want back to those days when we had 2MB and a floppy.
-
look for it here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/gc-linux/
-
OMFG!
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=5512
USB HOST - coming soon!
...now that is everything...
now what was that again about the GC not being a sound Amiga PPC platform?
-
Holy critnap!
I used a Gyration wireless mouse on a PC at work today!
It lets you rotate the mouse in mid-air and it moves the mouse pointer on the screen accordingly.
Wow!
I tried spelling my name in mid-air but the thing doesn't recognized 3D spacial movement, just rotation along 2 axis.
The Revolution controller does recognize 3D spacial movement. I was wowed by this mouse. I expect to be blown away by the Revolution controller.
-
see now this last post had nothing to do would the original post at all. i have a wireless mouse and keyboard... they are pretty cool i guess.
certainly nothing to bring up the holy name of critnap anyway :-D
-
well,
Revolution is capable of playing Gamecube games.
Supposedly, Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is supposed to be "Revolution-aware" so an OS targetted at the GC could eventually take advantage of Revolution's capabilities.
Besides, the Rev controller was demoed on the GC to the press...
And the wireless mouse I'm talking about, I held in mid-air...it's not a wireless mouse that you need a flat surface for, you just move your wrist in mid-air and move the mouse pointer... It's from Gyration. You should look it up. I'm thinking about buying it. Works from 30 ft away too. Again, Rev's controller can do that and more. I'm excited!
Besides, did you read my prior post about the USB host? The GC is the best bang for buck potential PPC Amiga hardware...soon...
-
Well it seems everyone does not have anything to contribute on here so I thought I would add my first reply to this historic thread! LOL
-
lou_dias wrote:
...now that is everything...
now what was that again about the GC not being a sound Amiga PPC platform?
24MB RAM... <-- All I need to say.
-
adolescent wrote:
24MB RAM... <-- All I need to say.
Gamecube has 24MB main ram and 16MB of secondary ram used as swap space by developers like a ram disk.
memory footprint of your average OS once it's "booted" and running: 256k
email client: 128K
most memory that ever came with a real Amiga: 2MB
memory that came with first Amiga: 256k
Linux kernel on Gamecube: 1.7MB
homebrew mp3 player with DVD browser on GC: 160K
homebrew multimedia player supporting MANY formats on GC: 14MB
most classic Amiga application run on a system with 512K, floppy drive speeds were the main issue before HD's became common place.
a $15 adapter gives you access to SD memory cards currently up to 2GB. Applications can boot off of SD card or DVD.
My GC-Linux boots in 5 seconds from the 2MB of flashram in my mod chip. That includes connecting to a TCP/IP based filesystem. A Kickstart-clone can easily be flashed there instead...or UBOOT (ala A1).
My modchip (qoob Pro) also supports booting from DVD burned with the joilet filesystem natively.
http://www.gc-linux.org/wiki/Building_a_Bootable_Disc
Or I can flash SDLoad and boot from SD card. www.gcdev.com
OS4 has been booted from an SD card at an Amiga show
Flashing is done via a USB cable and software that runs on the PC (I think there is also a MAC version somewhere). www.qoobchip.com
Soon a new modchip called GCLoader (www.gcloader.com) will also include a USB 2.0 HOST that will allow for plugging in devices like USB harddrives and the like... Once you have a harddrive, memory limitations are moot by means of virtual memory.
Finally, there was a thread on this site called something like "OS4 is lean and mean" where a user posted screen shots of his 256MB A1 running OS4. He had an instant-messenger cliet, email client and AmiAMP all running well under 24MB of memory on a very hi-res screen. OS4 is made to run lean as it's developer have stated that it is ideal for "embedded" devices with low resources. This is what it's own developers state on the official OS4 website and cotradicts what every troll was trying to tell me when I started this thread.
People will always say something can't be done until someone comes along and does it.
When the only excuse left against running an Amiga-based OS on the Gamecube is memory. The trolls need to find a new bridge to live under. What's the old saying, "unused RAM is wasted RAM". Until an Amiga user can justify needing more than 24-40 MB of RAM at any given time to go about their daily computing, it's a non-issue.
I never have never said GC-Amiga is an ideal solution. I have always said it can be a great introduction to OS4 and help grow the market. Then when suitable and affordable hardware comes out (now that the market has grown) you can then upgrade to that hardware. Also, by default, the Nintendo Revolution provides an upgrade path to a G5 based system at a much better price than anyone else will sell you a G5-compatible board at.
-
Port Firefox and woops, the GameCube's mem is suddenly full.
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
24MB RAM... <-- All I need to say.
Gamecube has 24MB main ram and 16MB of secondary ram used as swap space by developers like a ram disk.
Yes, 24MB of RAM, just like I said. Since you can't use the extra 16MB of swap as contiguous RAM for applications, etc.
memory footprint of your average OS once it's "booted" and running: 256k
Average 1990 Amiga OS? You're not talking about modern usable operating systems are you? Are you seriously comparing something like OS4 to Workbench 2.0?
most memory that ever came with a real Amiga: 2MB
Wrong. We'll just leave it at that.
most classic Amiga application run on a system with 512K, floppy drive speeds were the main issue before HD's became common place.
HDs have been commonplace for 10+ years, even in Amigas. Again, where's the connection. Do you have 26MB of RAM in your PC? It's not possible.
a $15 adapter gives you access to SD memory cards currently up to 2GB. Applications can boot off of SD card or DVD.
As storage, not RAM. There's nothing, currently, that can be done about the lack of RAM. As such, and I've been saying this for months now, the GCN is not a good candidate for anything other than a game system.
People will always say something can't be done until someone comes along and does it.
That's typically how things work. I'd never expect to see a flying car that can travel back in time, but you never know.
-
@odin:
My CD32 with 4megs in my SX-1 ran IBrowse. If Firefox is a bigger pig than Internet Explorer (<21MB) then those coders (FireFox) need to write better code. How big is Opera?
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Gamecube has 24MB main ram and 16MB of secondary ram used as swap space by developers like a ram disk.
Yes, 24MB of RAM, just like I said. Since you can't use the extra 16MB of swap as contiguous RAM for applications, etc.
So, it can be used like RAM: or RAD:
It's still useable.
memory footprint of your average OS once it's "booted" and running: 256k
Average 1990 Amiga OS? You're not talking about modern usable operating systems are you? Are you seriously comparing something like OS4 to Workbench 2.0?
Show me a booted Amiga Workbench screen that has more than several hundred kilobytes of used memory. We are talking about Amiga OS's here not pigs such as Mac OS X or Win 2K/XP.
most memory that ever came with a real Amiga: 2MB
Wrong. We'll just leave it at that.
excuse me - CHIP RAM
most classic Amiga application run on a system with 512K, floppy drive speeds were the main issue before HD's became common place.
HDs have been commonplace for 10+ years, even in Amigas. Again, where's the connection. Do you have 26MB of RAM in your PC? It's not possible.
When talking about Windows or Mac - right, not possible. But who's talking about Windows or Mac OS's?
a $15 adapter gives you access to SD memory cards currently up to 2GB. Applications can boot off of SD card or DVD.
As storage, not RAM. There's nothing, currently, that can be done about the lack of RAM. As such, and I've been saying this for months now, the GCN is not a good candidate for anything other than a game system.
SD cards are replacing floppies and CDRW's more and more. That was/is my point.
People will always say something can't be done until someone comes along and does it.
That's typically how things work. I'd never expect to see a flying car that can travel back in time, but you never know.
Exactly.
-
The extra 16MB of RAM is not directly accessible by the CPU. You can only access it through DMA. This makes it okay for swap space or disk cache, but useless for general purpose memory. You're pretty much stuck with just the main 24MB.
On my windows machine, Firefox uses about 26MB of RAM to view the front page of Ars Technica. Sites that use more flash or more images will likely consume more RAM. I believe even Minimo (the Firefox for portables project) is targeted at devices with at least 32MB of RAM.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
The extra 16MB of RAM is not directly accessible by the CPU. You can only access it through DMA. This makes it okay for swap space or disk cache, but useless for general purpose memory. You're pretty much stuck with just the main 24MB.
On my windows machine, Firefox uses about 26MB of RAM to view the front page of Ars Technica. Sites that use more flash or more images will likely consume more RAM. I believe even Minimo (the Firefox for portables project) is targeted at devices with at least 32MB of RAM.
Well, not every web page contains Flash, Javascript, VBscript, streaming media, etc... There's nothing wrong with plain HTML. Multiview can display plain HTML with the html.datatype. For a semi-portable system like I envision, it's enough.
You guys are trying to acheive a monumental step forward. Even OS 4 is not on par with XP or OS X. So there is no need for that comparison. The most appealing feature of OS 4 is that it uses a much faster cpu than classic Amigas but isn't bloated like "current" OSes. So it retains that Amiga "response".
Amiga OS is a fast single-user OS. I don't need all the features of os 'xxx'. I just need to run what I tell it to and do it quickly. The beauty of the GC is it's very portable. With an SD card, you can take your OS and apps on the road without worrying about heads hitting platters on a hard drive.
About the 16MB:
Right, but it is directly accessible by the DSP because that's what it was designed for. So you can store sound data there and play it without taking away from the 24MB or cpu power. Also, since the GPU is the north+southbridge on the GC, you can load data directly there without having to go through the cpu.
So to say it's unusable isn't accurate. Again, developers have used it as a ramdisk...and by developers, I mean licensed video game developers. Data from the highspeed parrallel port can go directly there. There is a homebrew api to access it already.
-
Anybody else loathe brussel sprouts? They taste like farts...
-
You're not wrong. Why would anyone want to eat what amounts to a concentrated cabbage?
Does this thread take the biscuit for the longest running yet?
-
I think yes.
-
Brussel (WTF does Brussels have to do with it anyway?) sprouts are a very tasty vegetable if you ask me.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, not every web page contains Flash, Javascript, VBscript, streaming media, etc... There's nothing wrong with plain HTML. Multiview can display plain HTML with the html.datatype. For a semi-portable system like I envision, it's enough.
Well if all you want is to run an antiquated browser under AROS or UAE I don't think anyone will argue with it being possible.
You guys are trying to acheive a monumental step forward. Even OS 4 is not on par with XP or OS X. So there is no need for that comparison. The most appealing feature of OS 4 is that it uses a much faster cpu than classic Amigas but isn't bloated like "current" OSes. So it retains that Amiga "response".
Why bring OS4 into the argument. It won't run on the Gamecube. It uses more than 24MB of RAM, Hyperion isn't going to port it, and you probably can't legally run the current version on the GC even if you could get it to work.
Amiga OS is a fast single-user OS. I don't need all the features of os 'xxx'. I just need to run what I tell it to and do it quickly. The beauty of the GC is it's very portable. With an SD card, you can take your OS and apps on the road without worrying about heads hitting platters on a hard drive.
Or you could just get an old laptop and stick a flash drive in place of the hard drive.
Right, but it is directly accessible by the DSP because that's what it was designed for. So you can store sound data there and play it without taking away from the 24MB or cpu power.
That's great for games, but it's useless for running normal software like web-browsers and the like. They're all programmed to load sound data into main memory because that's the way it works on most computers (Amiga software might load it into chip memory, but since there's not a 1:1 correlation between chipmem and the GC's DSP RAM, you can't take advantage of it).
So to say it's unusable isn't accurate.
I didn't say it was unusable. I said it was useless as general purpose RAM.
Again, developers have used it as a ramdisk...
Which gives you a really fast fixed disk, but not more RAM for the CPU to use.
Data from the highspeed parrallel port can go directly there.
Which is great for improving I/O performance, but still does nothing to solve the limitations of having only 24MB of main memory.
-
Here's OS 4 with 2 docks open only using up 8MB out of a 256MB system:
http://www.geofront.co.uk/mac/amigaos4.html
We both saw the thread this originated from.
Why is everyone under the misconception that you need a god aweful amount of RAM to boot into OS4?
-
Looks like it's using a lot more than 8MB to me that is unless your assertion that the 64MB of graphics memory really does come out of main memory is indeed true (which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, if it's just main memory you might as well make all of it chipmem). However, if that was the case, he could have no more than 201,326,592 bytes free when he has over 205,000,000. I suppose some odd number of MB could be allocated to graphics memory, but it seems somewhat suspicous to me.
Even if I give you that, once he has too relatively simple applications open (WookieChat and Jaberwocky) he's already using 24.5MB by your metric.
24MB is a huge limitation for OS4.
-
Agreed.
Looking at a bigger picture though...classic apps ported to OS 4 are not going to automatically consume a higher memory footprint. Maybe 20% due to the RISC vs. CISC nature of the code... So apps designed to run on a 512K/1MB/2MB classic Amiga that get ported will run just fine on an OS4-GC.
And again, this is just a stepping stone to build upon... Look at the GC as an A500 with only a floppy...meanwhile build demand for an A4000HD... That kind of idea. That has been my idea from the start.
Amiga-On-Nintendo won't replace my PC but when I can show it around and then say that new more powerful dedicated hardware that can run this OS is around the corner, then some people may go "hmmm...", providing the price is right and the apps are there, ofcourse.
But without affordable hardware to run the OS on, how will there ever be a demand of the OS?
Amiga doesn't have "killer apps" anymore. To fill a niche market, it must cater directly to that market AND a broad market. Once the niche market has the hardware and apps to rely on the Amiga platform for 75% of their computing needs, then can the market grow. Eventually all computing needs could once again be fulfilled through the Amiga OS and it could once again be considered an alternative to Mac/Windows/Linux. It is not an alternative right now. Just a hobby. I won't spend $1000 on a hobby with very little in return.
Edit:
following up on that screen shot, we also don't know how much information is in the RAMDISK or if all system libraries are required to be memory resident in order to improve speed or can be switched to be loaded as needed... For instance, that Windows PocketPC I played with at work only had 64MB but has 192MB ROM to boot from and load core apps as needed. If OS 4 can run on embedded devices, I'm sure these settings are definable somewhere.
-
-
it's still 1/3 of an A1
the soldering is 6 wires and the whole process is 15 minutes tops...including dis-assembly and re-assembly
the game bit is the same one Nintendo's used for years and is a couple of bucks
I wouldn't buy a new 'Cube to do this with, $50-$60 certified at GameStop/EB...less if you use Ebay. Gamecubes don't exactly break like PS2's or burn down houses like Xboxes...
you don't need a case mod because you can burn 3" DVDs...and that's all that's useable anyway (1.4 GB) though some have claimed to access up to 3GB of data on a 5" disc...
The PNY 1GB 10x write speed SD card I just received in the mail today from TigerDirect.com was $55
So ~$225
Oh and outside of running OS4, a Gamecube is much more useful than an A1, afterall a Gamecube is still a Gamecube. Modded, it's still a fully functional Gamecube.
The cost of the SD card is a bit of a wash as some people may already have them in a camera...or eventually will. So it also has some value outside of this project.
Then there's people like me and you and about 1/3 the members of this site who already own a Gamecube. So that cost is a wash as well.
Now picture this. If every member of this site who already owned a GC spent < $180 on the necessary equipment to do this and convinced Hyperion to make a port. How many copies of OS 4 could they sell now? In buying those copies, maybe Hyperion could give them a future (partial) credit towards a more suitable hardware port in the future. Hyperion gets money now to continue funding the project. People get OS4 NOW and buy applications. The market grows. People can now justify a need for more powerful/flexible hardware. Such hardware is produced. We now have an actively viable platform.
I will personally sell an SD Gecko memory card adpater to any amiga.org member who wants to experiment with the GC for $8 shipped US/Canada. How does that sound?
In fact, I will do the soldering for free to anyone who will send me their GC + modchip. Or pay me to buy them a brand new GC (or used) + modchip.
Besides, it's not about running old Amiga games...Unless UAE runs on OS4 and is 100% compatible, I am already doing that with WinUAE. I just want to see this platform wake from the dead and move forward instead of deeper into the ground.
Heck, there are SNES and Genesis emulators (and even an N64 emulator ripped from the "remasted" Ocinera Of Time + Master Quest bundle disc) running natively on the Gamecube...and other ports of other older consoles...
It's not about playing Amiga games on the GC. It's just about getting Amiga out of the early 90's.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Now picture this. If every member of this site who already owned a GC spent < $180 on the necessary equipment to do this and convinced Hyperion to make a port.
I really doubt many would do this. So far you're pretty much the only one excited about running OS4 on a Gamecube.
How many copies of OS 4 could they sell now?
Not enough to make the porting effort worthwhile.
I just want to see this platform wake from the dead and move forward instead of deeper into the ground.
I don't see how this is going to accomplish that. OS4 doesn't bring anything to the table that other operating systems don't (well except for compatability with some old software). There are a bunch of lightweight graphical operating systems with more modern software than OS4 does. Some of them are even free.
-
Lou: My CD32 with 4megs in my SX-1 ran IBrowse. If Firefox is a bigger pig than Internet Explorer (<21MB) then those coders (FireFox) need to write better code. How big is Opera?
The v8.5 archive is 3.6 MB in size. Granted, that's a compressed archive. Installation is about 13MB, and memory usage is 16MB when I look at my master links page, which is written in strict HTML 4.0 with no graphics, CSS, etc.
Lou: So, it can be used like RAM: or RAD:
It's still useable.
For config information, I suppose. But, to be usable, you still have to jump through hoops to get it to the CPU, somehow.
Funny, GameCube memory architecture is somewhat opposite of the Amiga.
Lou: Well, not every web page contains Flash, Javascript, VBscript, streaming media, etc.
Point a modern web browser to a plain HTML page and see how much memory it uses.
HTML is just a markup language to describe content. You can get a 100k parsing engine to display HTML as graphics. That doesn't mean anyone wants to use it.
I thought people were all complaining about the limitations of iBrowse and the like, and wanted CSS support. Think about why CSS was created, too.
Lou: You guys are trying to acheive a monumental step forward.
That's kind of the point to making a "new" system.
You did originally compare GameCube to the AmigaOne, not to old PPC-accelerated Amiga hardware, like an expanded A4000.
Lou: Amiga OS is a fast single-user OS. I don't need all the features of os 'xxx'.
Take a look at the kernel of a modern OS. Multi-user support is piddling. Even embedded OSes like QNX support it. The lack of core features usually relates to a lack of foresight and development time, rather than trying to skim on system resources.
Note that security largely depends on groups. Obscurity is hardly a justification for the lack of security, as filesystem security is important for more things than keeping out viruses, you know.
Of course, that's reaching a bit, given that most "real" OSes lock software out of the system, but give full access to what counts: "Home". Even UNIX security seems really flimsy to me.
MskoDestny: Or you could just get an old laptop and stick a flash drive in place of the hard drive.
Yeah, but it won't be PPC, which is all that matters, of course. We need to use a sub-$100 console which, when new, originally sold for, what, $250 wihtout any software?
Lou: Here's OS 4 with 2 docks open only using up 8MB out of a 256MB system:
It's hard to gague memory usage from screenshots wihout a real memory tracker application open.
I wonder how much memory they are using for disk caches and the like. Maybe caches don't show up at all as "used" memory, since technically caches are "free" memory that's released to applications when they need it.
Hardly worth arguing about in the PC world, but for embedded-class hardware, every killobyte counts.
Lou: Amiga-On-Nintendo won't replace my PC but when I can show it around and then say that new more powerful dedicated hardware that can run this OS is around the corner, then some people may go "hmmm...", providing the price is right and the apps are there, ofcourse.
Ah, reality is starting to sink in, now.
Except for the fact that developing for GameCube without Nintendo's help is next to impossible. Unlike the GCLinux team, Amiga and Hyperion are commercial companies. I don't think Nintendo would like it if OS4 was released... and there's still issues with compatibility.
And, yes, GCLinux is still struggling to get even basic features implemented. If Amiga counts on people running OS4 on used/bargain bin hardware, instead of new systems, they'll end up having to reverse-engineer everything just like the GCLinux team.
You did mention in another thread that you're not into making Nintendo a profit. I don't think they'll like that idea very much. :-)
Lou: But without affordable hardware to run the OS on, how will there ever be a demand of the OS?
Ask the hundreds of millions of people who own PCs.
Ask the millions of people who spent $300+ on a glossy-looking, over-hyped MP3 player.
Ask the millions who will spend $50-$100 for a new cell phone because the one that came with their calling plan is too cheap.
Ask the "1000+ a day" that are buying "cheap" Mac minis for $500 or more.
Ask the people that are actually buying those Godawful plasma TVs for $1,000+ when they look like crap from a standard analog signal.
Seems like you think all people have money except Amigans. Oh, and even hobbyists need more options than a game machine that must be soldered together or have special custom hardware built for a proprietery serial port (regardless of performance).
I thought the whole point of making a new Amiga is that we don't have to do this frankenstein crap, anymore. It's unfortunate that Amiga has chosen the Teron as the base system, but you need to evaluate more options. There are plenty of cool-running, portable, affordable PCs. If you can't think of any, ask Google.
Better yet, stop wasting time pining over GameCube, and ask Amiga/Hyperion why they can't actually deliver CPU-independent code running on a real, modern embedded OS.
Obviously, they don't care. That's all that really matters in the end, and five years from now, when every handheld computer has 128+ MB of memory, the idea of running OS4 on proprietary game machines run by companies that don't give a damn about real operating systems and won't help OS developers with real hardware documentation, will still look absurd.
Lou: Oh and outside of running OS4, a Gamecube is much more useful than an A1, afterall a Gamecube is still a Gamecube. Modded, it's still a fully functional Gamecube.
Interesting. Many people made a point that if Amiga went x86 and was dual-bootable with Windows, nobody would use it.
The cost of the SD card is a bit of a wash as some people may already have them in a camera...or eventually will. So it also has some value outside of this project.
You know, I have an old, spare PC. Lots of people do. We could have an Amiga for nothing more than a software fee! Wow! Granted, some things may have to run in safe mode or flat mode due to a lack of specific chipset support, but since we're considering GameCube, obviously overall performance and functionality isn't an issue.
Lou, you don't have to lower the costs even more by touting re-usability of parts. There is a prime selling point for all devices, and people have a gray area of negotiation. There are many new cars for $10,000, but nobody buys them. GameCube is simply below the cheap threshold. People want more.
It's just about getting Amiga out of the early 90's.
And into the late 20th century. :-)
Lou: How many copies of OS 4 could they sell now?
MskoDestny:Not enough to make the porting effort worthwhile.
If the port is difficult (lack of documentation, dev tools, and Nintendo's support), then it is more expensive, too. A lot of wasted effort when the next big thing comes along. Revolution may be similar to GameCube, but it is not the same, and at some point, people will want laptops and more traditional computers.
Given how long it's taking OS4 just to be released, I'm sure everyone can agree that porting OSes, especially to platforms that are not compatible with PC standards, is not an easy or cheap task. Also, GameCube is almost end-of-lifed, just like the AmigaOne.
MskoDestny: There are a bunch of lightweight graphical operating systems with more modern software than OS4 does. Some of them are even free.
Yup. OS4 is being made by Hyperion because Amiga Inc. didn't want to do it. Doesn't that say something, Lou?
Maybe you should stop blaming AmigaOne for being expensive and blame the people in charge. Everyone knows AmigaOne is overpriced, and it's that way because somebody in the head office (investors, or whatever), wanted it that way.
-
Waccoon wrote:
Lou: So, it can be used like RAM: or RAD:
It's still useable.
For config information, I suppose. But, to be usable, you still have to jump through hoops to get it to the CPU, somehow.
If there's a function that you call that does it easily, who cares what the underlying code is. Someday I will post the headers to the OpenGC Library...
Lou: You guys are trying to acheive a monumental step forward.
That's kind of the point to making a "new" system.
You did originally compare GameCube to the AmigaOne, not to old PPC-accelerated Amiga hardware, like an expanded A4000.
There you go taking me out of context again.
I said the GC gives you most of what people want in a new machine at 1/4 the price when compared to an A1. I never said it was perfect, just cheap.
Lou: Amiga OS is a fast single-user OS. I don't need all the features of os 'xxx'.
Take a look at the kernel of a modern OS. Multi-user support is piddling. Even embedded OSes like QNX support it. The lack of core features usually relates to a lack of foresight and development time, rather than trying to skim on system resources.
Note that security largely depends on groups. Obscurity is hardly a justification for the lack of security, as filesystem security is important for more things than keeping out viruses, you know.
Of course, that's reaching a bit, given that most "real" OSes lock software out of the system, but give full access to what counts: "Home". Even UNIX security seems really flimsy to me.
No one here is planning on sharing the GC with the family as the main PC. And if OS4 gets such a huge following that it attracts the attention of some malevolent hacker...I think we will have progressed from GC hardware by then...
We need to use a sub-$100 console which, when new, originally sold for, what, $250 wihtout any software?
$199 without any software new in Nov 18, 2001.
Lou: Here's OS 4 with 2 docks open only using up 8MB out of a 256MB system:
It's hard to gague memory usage from screenshots wihout a real memory tracker application open.
I wonder how much memory they are using for disk caches and the like. Maybe caches don't show up at all as "used" memory, since technically caches are "free" memory that's released to applications when they need it.
Disk caches? OS4 and every Amiga OS before that is fast and repsonsive because it doesn't rely on disk caching or virtual memory. It uses whatever RAM it has and even you should know that which is why you keep using reasoning outside of the scope of what this topic is to knock it down, sound intelligent, and diminish less informed people from gaining enthusiasm for this.
Lou: Amiga-On-Nintendo won't replace my PC but when I can show it around and then say that new more powerful dedicated hardware that can run this OS is around the corner, then some people may go "hmmm...", providing the price is right and the apps are there, ofcourse.
Ah, reality is starting to sink in, now.
If this thread ever dies...what ever would you do with yourself? Oh yeah, complain about your slow Mac Mini.
Except for the fact that developing for GameCube without Nintendo's help is next to impossible. Unlike the GCLinux team, Amiga and Hyperion are commercial companies. I don't think Nintendo would like it if OS4 was released... and there's still issues with compatibility.
Tell that to the developers at gcdev.com or gc-linux.org
There is a free library that exposes every bit of hardware that the GC has built-in. You can download a Windows, Mac and Linux Gamecube development kit here:
http://www.gcdev.com/downloads.shtml
It's legal because it doesn't use any Nintendo dev kit libraries. There is no law against modding a console and running you own code. You don't sign a licensing agreement when you purchase a console. More misinformation on your part...what else is new...
And, yes, GCLinux is still struggling to get even basic features implemented. If Amiga counts on people running OS4 on used/bargain bin hardware, instead of new systems, they'll end up having to reverse-engineer everything just like the GCLinux team.
? The are running the 2.6.14 kernal. The whole point of Linux is that you patch or recompile a build with the features you actually want... Keep trolling...
[/quote]You did mention in another thread that you're not into making Nintendo a profit. I don't think they'll like that idea very much. :-)[/quote]
Actually it was this thread.
So, they don't care if I get hit by a car. What's your point?
Lou: But without affordable hardware to run the OS on, how will there ever be a demand of the OS?
Ask the hundreds of millions of people who own PCs.
Ask the millions of people who spent $300+ on a glossy-looking, over-hyped MP3 player.
Ask the millions who will spend $50-$100 for a new cell phone because the one that came with their calling plan is too cheap.
Ask the "1000+ a day" that are buying "cheap" Mac minis for $500 or more.
Ask the people that are actually buying those Godawful plasma TVs for $1,000+ when they look like crap from a standard analog signal.
Seems like you think all people have money except Amigans. Oh, and even hobbyists need more options than a game machine that must be soldered together or have special custom hardware built for a proprietery serial port (regardless of performance).
Yes, take me out of context yet again.
If Amigans have so much money, why are they still using Amigas? Why aren't they on PC's or Macs 100% of the time.
You forget. Amiga is a hobby now. Hobbies shouldn't be expensive. Even you are "Mr. Mac Mini" incarnate. If you have so much money, buy an A1 or Troika and ignore people who want to see OS 4 on CHEAP hardware.
Between some remodelling and my 50" DLP HDTV, I've spent $7000 in the last couple of months. My TV was $1750 shipped. It has infinitely more value and a $1000 A1 just to run OS4. If OS4 was in enough people's hands and have a viable market where "new" software was being released, then maybe A1 or similar hardware might be worth the investment. There is not and that's why a small investment in a system like a modded Gamecube to try it out makes alot more sense.
the whole point of making a new Amiga is that we don't have to do this frankenstein crap, anymore. It's unfortunate that Amiga has chosen the Teron as the base system, but you need to evaluate more options. There are plenty of cool-running, portable, affordable PCs. If you can't think of any, ask Google.
Better yet, stop wasting time pining over GameCube, and ask Amiga/Hyperion why they can't actually deliver CPU-independent code running on a real, modern embedded OS.
Obviously, they don't care. That's all that really matters in the end, and five years from now, when every handheld computer has 128+ MB of memory, the idea of running OS4 on proprietary game machines run by companies that don't give a damn about real operating systems and won't help OS developers with real hardware documentation, will still look absurd.
I keep stating my goals and what I'm looking for. Yours are something totally different. If you don't care to mod a GC - go away. You aren't serving any purpose here. If OS4 isn't capable of running on cheap hardware, OS4 will be a small footnote in Amiga's history.
Why won't Hyperion port OS4 to GC? Same reason why won't they port it to your Mac Mini. The difference is, they can pursue a license from Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't have a reason to deny it because they stand to profit from every copy sold. Apple would never issue a license to Hyperion for a Mac to run a product to compete against it's own. So I'll stop wishing for OS4 on GC well after you stop wishing for it on the Mac.
Lou: Oh and outside of running OS4, a Gamecube is much more useful than an A1, afterall a Gamecube is still a Gamecube. Modded, it's still a fully functional Gamecube.
Interesting. Many people made a point that if Amiga went x86 and was dual-bootable with Windows, nobody would use it.
Oh, I didn't know the GC could act as a PC. Get real. If people are using Amigas just for games, they certainly don't need OS4 or an A1.
The cost of the SD card is a bit of a wash as some people may already have them in a camera...or eventually will. So it also has some value outside of this project.
You know, I have an old, spare PC. Lots of people do. We could have an Amiga for nothing more than a software fee! Wow! Granted, some things may have to run in safe mode or flat mode due to a lack of specific chipset support, but since we're considering GameCube, obviously overall performance and functionality isn't an issue.
Lou, you don't have to lower the costs even more by touting re-usability of parts. There is a prime selling point for all devices, and people have a gray area of negotiation. There are many new cars for $10,000, but nobody buys them. GameCube is simply below the cheap threshold. People want more.
It comes down to perceives value and individual needs. If nobody bought $10,000 cars then no one would make them either. It comes down to supply and demand. There wasn't much demand for the A1 @ ~$900 to run OS4. So ask yourself at what price point would people want to give OS4 a try. Once that magic number is hit, then you will see sales.
Lou: How many copies of OS 4 could they sell now?
MskoDestny:Not enough to make the porting effort worthwhile.
If the port is difficult (lack of documentation, dev tools, and Nintendo's support), then it is more expensive, too. A lot of wasted effort when the next big thing comes along. Revolution may be similar to GameCube, but it is not the same, and at some point, people will want laptops and more traditional computers.
Given how long it's taking OS4 just to be released, I'm sure everyone can agree that porting OSes, especially to platforms that are not compatible with PC standards, is not an easy or cheap task. Also, GameCube is almost end-of-lifed, just like the AmigaOne.
Hyerion can port UBOOT to the GC in a day. The HAL in a week. They can freely use the OpenGC library to do it. The GC-Linux team got a basic Linux port done in a week "with no documentation". You want documentation: http://www.gcdev.com/downloads.shtml download YAGD.
-
I finally found a version of SDLoad that runs from my qoob chip's flash memory (vs. Action Replay). So I finally got to launch applications from my SD card. I tried Tetris, Pong and cubeDoom. Haven't played with the Sega Genesis(Megadrive) or SNES emulators yet. Doom was ~6.3MB and loaded in 8.5 secs from the time I selected the application to boot from the SDLoad menu to the time the cubeDoom screen came up and the program was running...(>750KB/s at worst)
Not bad for "memory card" access speed... It could load an Amiga .adf file in 1 second.
Also, the 1GB PNY SD memory card I bought for just over $50 has 10x write speed. There are SD cards that support up to 133x write speed.
-
http://devkitpro.sourceforge.net/devkitProWiki/libogc/a00144.html
That's a link that describes the aram.h header file for accessing the 'Cube's 16MB of audio RAM. Yes, that is the hoop you jump through to access it. As anyone with basic understanding of programming can see, a simple function call can copy data from memory there or copy data there to memory just by specifying the 2 address ranges and a direction.
very unusable indeed
feel free to browse the rest of the supposed non-existant documentation...
-
lou_dias wrote:
http://devkitpro.sourceforge.net/devkitProWiki/libogc/a00144.html
That's a link that describes the aram.h header file for accessing the 'Cube's 16MB of audio RAM. Yes, that is the hoop you jump through to access it. As anyone with basic understanding of programming can see, a simple function call can copy data from memory there or copy data there to memory just by specifying the 2 address ranges and a direction.
very unusable indeed
You still can't use it for general purpose RAM. You could use it for swap space, a RAM disk or a buffer/cache for some of the supporting hardware but that's about it.
-
but that's what I've always said
once however amount of information you want is swapped in, it's useable
it's easy to swap
"not useable" means you have no access to it. If you have access to it, it's useable. Also, the GPU has more direct access to it and can store buffers there. Sound data can get loaded directly there for processing and never needs to go into main ram. The term "unusable" is far from true.
Sounds pretty general-purpose to me.
RAM is for storage with fast access.
Cache is what is getting executed.
If you have an extra 16MB that's quick to access, why wouldn't you use it?
-
lou_dias wrote:
http://devkitpro.sourceforge.net/devkitProWiki/libogc/a00144.html
That's a link that describes the aram.h header file for accessing the 'Cube's 16MB of audio RAM. Yes, that is the hoop you jump through to access it. As anyone with basic understanding of programming can see, a simple function call can copy data from memory there or copy data there to memory just by specifying the 2 address ranges and a direction.
very unusable indeed
feel free to browse the rest of the supposed non-existant documentation...
It's just a stack. A 16MB stack. The way the library is written makes it unsuitable for multiple processes to use this space.
Even if you did adapt a malloc lib to use that space, and made a super easy wrapper to fetch/store data there, you wouldnt end up with 16mb of space there, as you would still want some memory avaiable for the sound support.
Suppose you leave 4mb for the sound and use the 12MB as heap space for processes though a seperate malloc implimentation. What is going to motivate a programmer to jump through hoops to fetch some memory out of a measly 12mb block, and jump through more hoops passing data back and forth from it? The code wouldnt be portable, and most applications would never be adapted to use it as it would be too much work and almost no benefit anyway.
Scarfing memory from other subsystems was clever 15 years ago, these days it's kind of a waste of time. I can find a system better suited for aros or linux from a near by trashcan ( with 4 times the memory of a game cube! )
-
Soon we have a cheap PPC Amiga,
It´s the ACK PowerVixxen, so drop your GC dream now :-P
-
Hardware flexibility: AmigaOS4.0 targets the PowerPC family of processors. It runs on the full PowerPC range, from the low-end 4xx series appropriate for information appliances and cell phones, up to the 9xx series appropriate for high-end server and processing applications. A highly portable codebase and Hardware Abstraction Layer makes porting AmigaOS to other devices using the PowerPC architecture, from SOC components to the STI Cell processor, a simple and speedy matter. The PowerPC family is one of the most popular CPU architectures, and whatever your application there will be a solution for you. However the clean AmigaOS codebase was written with portability in mind, so if you've got your heart set on another processor family, talk to us and we'll see what we can do.
This is from Hyperion's OS4 website.
I find it interesting that none of you are OS4 developers but Hyperion says they can run it on a cell phone but you people say it can't run on the Gamecube.
Next some troll will tell me that cellphones have had 256MB of memory for years...
btw,
For all who don't know any better, the GC uses the 750GX which falls between the 4xx and 9xx they mention here.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I find it interesting that none of you are OS4 developers but Hyperion says they can run it on a cell phone but you people say it can't run on the Gamecube.
Next some troll will tell me that cellphones have had 256MB of memory for years...
Actually, some do. But, that's beside the point.
The experience of running "OS4" on the mobile phone wouldn't be the same as running it on a full fledged computer. Just like your running of Internet Explorer on a PDA isn't the same as running it on a real PC.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. If you want to run a PDA/smart phone type OS and apps on your GCN then the 24MB just might work (although, it would be even more limited than current PDAs/smart phones). But, if you want to run the real desktop OS then you'll be very short of memeory.
-
Bottom line is... Talk to Hyperion. They're the only ones that can say yes or no.
I believe the reason you keep this thread going is you already know the answer.
-
I hereby nominate lou_dias as the Tim Rue of amiga.org and the "OS4 on Gamecube" is his VIC system.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
I find it interesting that none of you are OS4 developers but Hyperion says they can run it on a cell phone but you people say it can't run on the Gamecube.
Next some troll will tell me that cellphones have had 256MB of memory for years...
Actually, some do. But, that's beside the point.
The experience of running "OS4" on the mobile phone wouldn't be the same as running it on a full fledged computer. Just like your running of Internet Explorer on a PDA isn't the same as running it on a real PC.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. If you want to run a PDA/smart phone type OS and apps on your GCN then the 24MB just might work (although, it would be even more limited than current PDAs/smart phones). But, if you want to run the real desktop OS then you'll be very short of memeory.
Actually what you just said is what I've been saying for the last 2 pages.
The experience may not be ideal or fully functional. But doable. Games can be played. Email can be checked. Obviously you are not going to do video editing or anything complicated like that. But get the OS in the hands of users with a trade-up coupon for a fuller version when suitable hardware exists.
It's everybody else that when you mention "OS 4" that has visions of it being the be-all-end-all of OSes that can do anything.
Why won't Hyperion port it? Yes, I know the answer. Because every troll and their troll-sibings posts on this thread and says "it's impossible so stop dreaming about it". If instead, users who just wanted to get it in there hands came on here and said they'd like to see it (which a few have, but not enough) then you'd have a potential market for it.
Ofcourse I've seen many a similar (albeit, shorter) thread on this site where someone mentions a new idea and it gets beat up to death by people who have no involvement in the issue other than they want to emphasize there opinions as facts and look quite knowledgeable...boosting their egos for no apparent reason other than they have nothing better to do.
-
mr_khyron wrote:
Soon we have a cheap PPC Amiga,
It´s the ACK PowerVixxen, so drop your GC dream now :-P
Well, the price is right but you really need to move on from being tied down to classic hardware. Is the 1200 just the addon card to the PV or what? You will still have to buy a custom tower to put that in.
a graphics-card via a Mini PCI-slot
good luck finding a descent video card with that "miniPCI" interface, did you add that to the cost?
In the end, what will look like a bigger hack? Atleast the GC doesn't require a 14 year old A1200.
I've detailed the GC costs as below $200 + the cost of OS4(Lite).
Your PowerVixxen calls for:
$299 final cost of finish product including OS4 (supposedly)
$??? A1200
$??? miniPCI video card
if you don't want to use an A1200:
Something worth a mention is the design of a terminator, which features among other things sockets for mouse, keyboard, sound and so on.
Who's designed one? Oh and let me use this classic troll-line: "Where's the drivers?", "Where's the documentation?"...
A dedicated psu ($30) is required as well if you run it with no A1200.
Now, I don't find it hard to believe that these guys can created a motherboard with these features for under $200 of manufacturing costs. (lord knows why Eyetech couldn't...)
But if Hyperion isn't doing the hardware porting themselves because they feel they can sell alot of copies of OS4, I don't think that pricetag covers the software coding integration of OS4 with this hardware.
Oh I almost forgot that the cpu in the GC offers 1125 Dmips (Dhrystone 2.1) as wells as SIMD instructions.
They are selling you the integrated freescale chip (which comes built-in with the features they mention. You can see the specs for it here: :rtfm:
http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/data_sheet/MPC5200.pdf
you can compare them to the GC here: :rtfm:
http://www.nintendo.com/techspecgcn
escpecially don't forget to compare cache memory...
Other than having a high system ram (512MB) and an IDE interface, the GC runs circles around it in total system cost and performance of memory resident apps... Like I said, good luck finding a "miniPCI" vidoe card that can actually do 3d in a 480p display. :-D
Again, show me an app that requires more than 24MB of RAM to run, (other than a "fully" functioning modern browser) then you can justify needing more memory than that.
-
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
http://devkitpro.sourceforge.net/devkitProWiki/libogc/a00144.html
That's a link that describes the aram.h header file for accessing the 'Cube's 16MB of audio RAM. Yes, that is the hoop you jump through to access it. As anyone with basic understanding of programming can see, a simple function call can copy data from memory there or copy data there to memory just by specifying the 2 address ranges and a direction.
very unusable indeed
feel free to browse the rest of the supposed non-existant documentation...
It's just a stack. A 16MB stack. The way the library is written makes it unsuitable for multiple processes to use this space.
Even if you did adapt a malloc lib to use that space, and made a super easy wrapper to fetch/store data there, you wouldnt end up with 16mb of space there, as you would still want some memory avaiable for the sound support.
Suppose you leave 4mb for the sound and use the 12MB as heap space for processes though a seperate malloc implimentation. What is going to motivate a programmer to jump through hoops to fetch some memory out of a measly 12mb block, and jump through more hoops passing data back and forth from it? The code wouldnt be portable, and most applications would never be adapted to use it as it would be too much work and almost no benefit anyway.
Scarfing memory from other subsystems was clever 15 years ago, these days it's kind of a waste of time. I can find a system better suited for aros or linux from a near by trashcan ( with 4 times the memory of a game cube! )
The hoops you mention are a function call.
Let's look at video editing. How does that happen.
Well, usually a frame at a time.
Do you think that the entire video is loaded into memory or are a certain amount buffered. That's exactly what you would use that memory for. You define a simple allocation table, then request x amount of memory allocate for your "worksspace". This is what happens with "main" memory now. The OS is a memory mamanger. Only difference is now is has a separate/extra bank of memory to reserve and allocate. It could happen at the kernel level and unless you are "banging the hardware" an application programmer doesn't need to worry about it unless their app occuppies 24 MB of physical memory. 99.9% of Amiga apps will run in well under 2mb of memory.
All a cpu knows about is what's in it's cache. The OS is responsible for the rest. Don't get it mixed up.
-
lou_dias wrote:
good luck finding a descent video card with that "miniPCI" interface, did you add that to the cost?
That's an interesting point. Mini PCI graphics cards are normally OEM only. However, I would presume ACK would choose to stock them for the PV boards.
Power wise it's easy to find out what chipsets are available on these cards as they are used in a lot of laptops. Nvidia go and ATI Mobility are used often enough.
As to price...I don't have a clue. :-D
-
Horse. Dead. Flogging.
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
http://devkitpro.sourceforge.net/devkitProWiki/libogc/a00144.html
That's a link that describes the aram.h header file for accessing the 'Cube's 16MB of audio RAM. Yes, that is the hoop you jump through to access it. As anyone with basic understanding of programming can see, a simple function call can copy data from memory there or copy data there to memory just by specifying the 2 address ranges and a direction.
very unusable indeed
feel free to browse the rest of the supposed non-existant documentation...
It's just a stack. A 16MB stack. The way the library is written makes it unsuitable for multiple processes to use this space.
Even if you did adapt a malloc lib to use that space, and made a super easy wrapper to fetch/store data there, you wouldnt end up with 16mb of space there, as you would still want some memory avaiable for the sound support.
Suppose you leave 4mb for the sound and use the 12MB as heap space for processes though a seperate malloc implimentation. What is going to motivate a programmer to jump through hoops to fetch some memory out of a measly 12mb block, and jump through more hoops passing data back and forth from it? The code wouldnt be portable, and most applications would never be adapted to use it as it would be too much work and almost no benefit anyway.
Scarfing memory from other subsystems was clever 15 years ago, these days it's kind of a waste of time. I can find a system better suited for aros or linux from a near by trashcan ( with 4 times the memory of a game cube! )
The hoops you mention are a function call.
Let's look at video editing. How does that happen.
Well, usually a frame at a time.
Do you think that the entire video is loaded into memory or are a certain amount buffered. That's exactly what you would use that memory for. You define a simple allocation table, then request x amount of memory allocate for your "worksspace". This is what happens with "main" memory now. The OS is a memory mamanger. Only difference is now is has a separate/extra bank of memory to reserve and allocate. It could happen at the kernel level and unless you are "banging the hardware" an application programmer doesn't need to worry about it unless their app occuppies 24 MB of physical memory. 99.9% of Amiga apps will run in well under 2mb of memory.
All a cpu knows about is what's in it's cache. The OS is responsible for the rest. Don't get it mixed up.
Of course you would want to ask the kernel to allocate/deallocate blocks from that region. Thats how you would make access to it from multiple processes sane. You are still going to end up with 2 mallocs though, one for main memory and one for that measley 16mb area. The library you mentioned earlier is no good for this.
Immagine a 1000 node linked list setup in your elite 16mb audio ram space. Traversing the linked list will be a pain because i have to setup a buffer in the main memory space, then call a function to move a node from the audio memory into the buffer i created in main memory.
It's just retarded. Id pay a nice performance penalty to use the audio memory. I have to copy blocks from one area to the next just to use it. And it's not portable, or trasnparent.
You cant make it transparent to the c/c++ programmer writing application layer stuff. It doesnt matter what kind of libs and kernel services are avaiable. You still have to go out of your way to use it, and it would be slow, and still require you to allocate in main memory to make use of it.
it sucks
-
@koaftder
About 8 years ago I did set up gcc on my CD32 + SX-1 Amiga OS 3.1 system because I was taking a C++ class in school. I also bought the GameSmith C/C++ development system. In that, I remember a function that allocated memory and I also remember being able to specify chip ram always or fastram if available...or something to that effect. So I don't see this situation as anything different.
As a programmer, you want to bang the hardware, you use the function I showed you. As an application developer, you use the API you are provided to make OS compliant software.
The concerns you have about performance are only relevant when you are either using a 20 year old machine with low processing power or are creating an A+ video game.
When "running" application, 99% of cpu time is wasted waiting for user input.
On a side note, the GC has the most cache of that generation of game machines and that is what helps it perform better than it's clock speed shows it can. The same will be true of Revolution (rumors are 2MB). Can you imagine that?
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
I find it interesting that none of you are OS4 developers but Hyperion says they can run it on a cell phone but you people say it can't run on the Gamecube.
Next some troll will tell me that cellphones have had 256MB of memory for years...
Actually, some do. But, that's beside the point.
You've made a claim. Prove it.
-
What it shows is that a PowerPC system that will sell in the millions (around 20 million for the Gamecube) can be sold for $99 retail and probably still makes a profit.
The Gamecube is too limited for a general purpose computer however (although I had considered it before as a nice AmigaOS platform). Now the XBox360 ... three 3.2GHz PowerPC cores, 512MB memory, Hard drive (SATA), DVD drive (SATA), high end graphics - that'd be a nice hardware platform. Still, it is being sold at a significant loss right now - given the retailer markup it must be at least $200 to Microsoft per console.
I'd rather that the company making this neat A1200 accellerator just made a standard MiniITX sized motherboard, with a full PCI slot and maybe some useful PCI devices like a SATA controller, good audio chip, and so on.
As for PDA/Mobile Phone applications, I think AmigaOS would be a great match.
-
lou_dias wrote:
but that's what I've always said
once however amount of information you want is swapped in, it's useable
it's easy to swap
It's easy to swap to and from a hard disk too, but that doesn't mean that having a 120GB hard disk gives you 120GB of general purpose RAM.
The closest you could get is to use it as really fast (compared to a hard drive anyway) swap space. Unfortunately, page swapping is a rather expensive operation even with a RAM based swap. A program tries to access memory that's not paged in which causes an exception. The OS then has to decide what chunk of memory hasn't been used recently and then triggers a DMA operation to copy the area that is being paged out to ARAM. Once this is done it triggers another DMA operation to copy the data from ARAM to main memory. Then it has to rewrite the MMU table so that the area that was paged out is now invalid and that the are that was paged in is now valid.
Normal memory access is nothing like that. The program just looks for the data at the appropriate address and it gets it. No exceptions, no DMA, no rewriting of the MMU table.
Since a single application like a webbrowser could easily use more than 24MB of RAM (particularly once you take out a chunk for the OS) it's conceivable that you would end up swapping almost constantly which would really kill performance.
RAM is for storage with fast access.
In a general sense that is true. Hard drives have RAM for cache, video cards have RAM, etc.
Cache is what is getting executed.
Cache is storage that tries to mask the slowness of some other storage whether it be a disk or even main RAM (in the case of the CPU cache).
If you have an extra 16MB that's quick to access, why wouldn't you use it?
Because apart from using it as cache or swap as I described above you can't use it without specifically writing software to use it.
-
lou_dias wrote:
@koaftder
About 8 years ago I did set up gcc on my CD32 + SX-1 Amiga OS 3.1 system because I was taking a C++ class in school. I also bought the GameSmith C/C++ development system. In that, I remember a function that allocated memory and I also remember being able to specify chip ram always or fastram if available...or something to that effect. So I don't see this situation as anything different.
It's very different, because you are talking about two hardware architectures here. Amiga and game cube. On the amiga you can access chip and fast through a generic pointer, on the game cube you cannot access aram through a generic pointer. This is why you have to use a special interface to make use aram. It's not the same situation. The aram area is not suitable for general purpose use.
The concerns you have about performance are only relevant when you are either using a 20 year old machine with low processing power or are creating an A+ video game.
Immagine a tight loop crawling a chain, having to do a dma transfer for each inspection of a 13byte node. It would be god awful slow. And if you were using this area as a general purpose store, you would be doing this *all the time*.
When "running" application, 99% of cpu time is wasted waiting for user input.
So what if most of a computers time is unproductive. When people want a machine to do a particular function, they want it done fast.
On a side note, the GC has the most cache of that generation of game machines and that is what helps it perform better than it's clock speed shows it can. The same will be true of Revolution (rumors are 2MB). Can you imagine that?
I can immagine that when it comes out we will have some asinine discussion about porting amiga os to the new nintendo platform. Of course you will focus much on some obscure capability of the microprocessor and make lots of comments about programming concepts you dont understand.
-
koaftder wrote:
I can immagine that when it comes out we will have some asinine discussion about porting amiga os to the new nintendo platform. Of course you will focus much on some obscure capability of the microprocessor and make lots of comments about programming concepts you dont understand.
Probably. :-D
-
Hattig wrote:
What it shows is that a PowerPC system that will sell in the millions (around 20 million for the Gamecube) can be sold for $99 retail and probably still makes a profit.
The Gamecube is too limited for a general purpose computer however (although I had considered it before as a nice AmigaOS platform). Now the XBox360 ... three 3.2GHz PowerPC cores, 512MB memory, Hard drive (SATA), DVD drive (SATA), high end graphics - that'd be a nice hardware platform. Still, it is being sold at a significant loss right now - given the retailer markup it must be at least $200 to Microsoft per console.
I'd rather that the company making this neat A1200 accellerator just made a standard MiniITX sized motherboard, with a full PCI slot and maybe some useful PCI devices like a SATA controller, good audio chip, and so on.
As for PDA/Mobile Phone applications, I think AmigaOS would be a great match.
Yeah, the x360 has everything you would want. when it's not overheating. Estimates are that they are losing about $125. We stand to benefit so that's no sweat off my back. But from what I hear, an in order executing processor is not ideal for the desktop. I think the Cell in the PS3 uses an O-o-O core. I expect Nintendo's Revolution to use an Out-of-Order exectuing cpu as well with lots of cache and excellent branch prediction. They are touting their games system as a platform to better gaming through a better interface and A.I. The 360 is just an XBOX with even better graphics, same gameplay experience.
Recently, the PS3 has been losing some steam. Rumors are that it will be delayed further. Don't expect a March '06 release. Revolution development news has been good and it's picking up ALOT of developer support now. I expect it will hit US shelves well before the PS3 and not too long after E3 2006. The cpu was just finished a week or 2 ago and is being shown to developers now. I have a thread in the OT Entertainment section of this site about that.
Sony seems to throw alot of marketing B.S. around when it comes to the Playstation line of products. Forinstance, the PSP downclocks to 200MHz for alot of applications. A far cry from the 300MHz it advertises. Also, the slimline PS2 is not 100% backwards compatible with the PS1. I don't expect the PS3 to be 100% backwards compatible with the PS2 and PS1 either. They also said the PS2 would be alot more powerful than the DC... Yeah that was almost true. Also if you believe that the PS3 can do a dual screen 1080p 120fps display. While I don't doubt the capability, I doubt the application. I don't think it will have the power to play games like that but maybe a static screen...but if it's static, why would you need 120fps. More marketing b.s...
Only thing I can really knock Nintendo for is not supporting high definition resolutions. Ever since Iwata took over, they have been solid with there promises. No B.S.
-
-
Waccoon wrote:
Lou: You've made a claim. Prove it.
You're an expert in this area, eh?
You could always follow your own advice, and "look it up yourself."
I think the Cell in the PS3 uses an O-o-O core. I expect Nintendo's Revolution to use an Out-of-Order exectuing cpu as well with lots of cache and excellent branch prediction
Think? Don't you look these things up? Is the info even out there right now?
That's why you are what I've always said you are. You made the claim, YOU need to back it up. Otherwise stop trolling this thread. As far as Cell's ppc core being an O-o-O processing cpu, it's what I recall from memory comparing the 360 to the PS3 sometime between the Game developer's summit in March and E3 in May. Since a Cell-based product doesn't exist yet, it's really quite irrelevant.
Funny how you think lots of cache on the Revolution CPU is a big plus, but the lack of RAM in Gamecube is no big deal, especially with the 68K emulation going on. I seem to recall that few Amiga apps are PowerPC native.
It's a well known fact that more cache improves performance. Also the GC has more cache than the PS2 or Xbox. 68k emulation is no big deal. There are open source 68k emulators and there is currently a homebrew GC developer writing one. Also there is already a port of a Sega Genesis emulator (which incase you forgot, is a 68000 based machine) on the GC homebrew scene. So I don't see 68k emualtion as an issue and besides, I don't care about backwards compatibility anyway when it comes to Amiga, I already have that in WINUAE.
Forinstance, the PSP downclocks to 200MHz for alot of applications. A far cry from the 300MHz it advertises.
...and it scales up to 333Mhz for some applications. It also downclocks to 1Mhz. It scales to save power, not to screw-over consumers. Your point?
My point is there marketing. What's your point? They make it sound like a PSP is as powerful as a PS2 and it can be...for about 1 1/2 hours, then you need fresh batteries again.
Also, the slimline PS2 is not 100% backwards compatible with the PS1.
Most of the time that's because developers don't follow programming guidelines. Early titles tend to have the most problems.
What is the compatibility, BTW? 15%? 25%? I own 22 PSX games and they all work with my PS2. Currently, 0% of native N64 games work with Gamecube.
22 games out of about 1200 isn't enough to make a basis on. There are some articles on the 'net' about which ones don't work and we'll really never know ALL the ones that don't work because nobody is gonna has the entire catalog in there possesion to try. The exact number is irrelevant. The fact that it's not 100% is the point.
Actually the 2 Zelda N64 games released on the GC as a ore-order bonus for pre-ordering Zelda:The Wind Waker were emualtor based. Infact hackers have ripped it and injected there own N64 roms to play other N64 games on the GC.
Funny you should criticize Sony on this issue, seeing how they basicly started the trend of backwards compatibility in the console industry. Before Revolution, Nintendo's compatibility abilites were limited to their portable systems, and to run anything on Revolution, you will have to re-license any games released prior to Gamecube. Paying for software you already own is not backwards compatibility.
No they didn't. The Gameboy Color was b/c with Gameboy as has been every Gameboy product since.
And it you really wanna go way back, Atari's 7800 was backwards compatible with the 2600. And the Atari 5200 had a plug-in module for 2600 backwards compatibility.
Plus, we don't know how Gamecube games work on Revolution. I'm most concerned about how GC mini-discs will work with a full-sized, slot-loaded DVD drive. There are slot-load drives that will take 80mm discs, but they are quite rare.
I'll refrain from commenting on the cartridge issue for N64. Everyone knows what happened, there.
3" discs rare? Yeah, Ok. 3" CDs and DVDs have been around a long time. Look at the center 3" of you PC's DVD player, they all support them. Ritek it the preferred brand for GC pirates.
As far as Revolution's front loading drive supporting drive supporting them, it's no major technological feat. My car's in dash player pulls the disc in after only inserting it in about an inch. All you need is some moveable guides to move in or out for a 3" or 5" disc.
As for the catride issue...so what, it happened, it's been over with for 7 years. It's the same issue MS is going through now with not going to HD-DVD. Elder Scrolls is supposedly on 4 DVDs right now ( http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000903070963/ ). Because Nintendo is sticking with 480p max, there games will fit on 1 DVD like current gen Xbox games. I I've already expressed discontent with Nintendo on this for Revolution.
Also if you believe that the PS3 can do a dual screen 1080p 120fps display. While I don't doubt the capability, I doubt the application.
Monitors, HDTV, VGA capabilities... moving forwards, basicly. While I commit to buying game systems based on game quality, I'm really looking forward to plugging a PS3 into my PC monitor and running my PS2 games on that display, like I can with my Dreamcast. I don't need dual displays, but it beats having to buy two consoles or playing multiplayer games in teeny windows.
Of course, you're so happy with your Gamecube and S-Video, you'd have no issue using it for a computer desktop, too. I use S-Video for my PS2, and while it looks bright and pixelicious, I'd hate to use a desktop that way. My current A1200 setup looks better than my brand new Panasonic TV with S-Video. Now that I've used WinUAE on my PC monitor, I definately don't want to go back to using an Amiga on a TV. The Amiga was designed to work on crappy TVs, but video technology has improved a lot since the 80's, even in the low-end.
I guess you forgot that I play my GC on my 50" DLP HDTV using component cables from my GC's digital video output. It can be modified to display VGA or a separate cable can be purchased. This can be done on the GC because the DAC in built into the cable, not the system.
It's the extra one I bought to put the modchip in that doesn't support the DV out. If I wanted to, now that I know how simple it is to mod, I can always simply remove my mod chip from that GC and sell it and put the mod chip into my Rev A GC.
I don't think it will have the power to play games like that but maybe a static screen...but if it's static, why would you need 120fps. More marketing b.s...
Ah, so you do doubt the capability.
No, it's not. It's scalable in refresh rate so it can work with a huge array of display devices, including LCDs that default to 75Hz. Displays aren't going to run at 60Hz forever.
Besides, PC displays have no problem running dual screens. The PS3 is based on a modified nVidia PC GPU. Tool compatibility is questionable, but performance isn't going to be that far off.
How choppy the video will be with dual screen support and a wide variety of resolutions depends largely on the complexity of the games. Some games on my PS2 chop like crazy, and some work at 60FPS no matter how much action gets on screen. That's the difference between good developers and engines, and bad ones. Blaming the hardware for framerate problems, as you do with XBox 360, is plain stupid.
I'm not arguing the technology. Re-read the post. :rtfm:
I'm arguing the application of it. I'm saying it's marketing spin by Sony. You want a PS3, buy it. You don't want a Revolution, don't buy it. I don't care. The day I see a dual screen, 1080p, 120 fps game on the PS3, I will declare Sony the be-all, end-all of the video games industry and pray for an earthquake to swallow Nintendo whole.
Nintendo has conceeded that Revolution will be less powerful than XBox 360. Does that mean Revolution games will run at 5FPS? Please...
5FPS...Oh that's a good one. I really think you have nothing better to do than write rubbish in this thread.
-
@lou_dias
Ack boards will not need an a1200 to work, the will work withouth any classic hardware fitted into it. And the size of the board will fit perfectly in an a1200 case, so i don't see the point of a need for a tower case for it.
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
@lou_dias
Ack boards will not need an a1200 to work, the will work withouth any classic hardware fitted into it. And the size of the board will fit perfectly in an a1200 case, so i don't see the point of a need for a tower case for it.
That's a bit of a contradiction.
How can you have a A1200 case and not have had a A1200.
From what I read, to not rely on a A1200 at all, you need a psu and a mystery device to give you a keyboard and mouse interface.
EDIT: Not to mention an RJ-45 ethernet jack
And since that means you don't have an A1200, you need a tower...and a keyboard...and a mouse...and a monitor...and a miniPCI graphics card...and hopefully OS4 comes bundled with these drivers.
Oh and somehow this mini-PCI graphics card is supposed to have a VGA port the you can mount to the tower.
I think you'd be better off with an A1 and making a clean break from reliance on legacy hardware. By the time you find all you need to run an ACK standalone it will be near the cost of an A1 and an A1 comes with a faster processor.
The ACK reminds me of Eyetech's original A1200-addon A1 design only this one is even less expandable and even more propriety (miniPCI).
-
lou_dias wrote:
No they didn't. The Gameboy Color was b/c with Gameboy as has been every Gameboy product since.
Not true anymore. The micro only supports GBA games. :-( (And, if you re-read what Wacoon said, you'll see he said the portables were backward compatible)
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
No they didn't. The Gameboy Color was b/c with Gameboy as has been every Gameboy product since.
Not true anymore. The micro only supports GBA games. :-( (And, if you re-read what Wacoon said, you'll see he said the portables were backward compatible)
Must you add this dribble.
The DS also doesn't play plain GB games but it's not a GB series product on the "Micro" is a limited release product, not the next "Gameboy".
He was still wrong on Sony with backwards compatibility pioneering and I'm still waiting for him to show me a cell phone with 256MB of ram.
-
lou_dias wrote:
That's a bit of a contradiction.
How can you have a A1200 case and not have had a A1200.
Many of us have spare cases after putting the A1200 motherboard into a tower.
From what I read, to not rely on a A1200 at all, you need a psu and a mystery device to give you a keyboard and mouse interface.
Keyboard and mouse? ACK have allready stated that they will be making an add on to do this.
and a miniPCI graphics card...and hopefully OS4 comes bundled with these drivers.
As I posted before ,the mini pci gfx cards are oem only, ACK would have to supply them. Then again, why wouldn't they? That's upselling.
As for OS4, why bundle OS4 with the drivers? ACK have stated that OS4 will be bundled with hardware so they can supply drivers with this as an oem.
I like the idea of a ppc wedge with my wireless pcmcia card but a ppc CD32 expansion (or coldfire), now THAT would get me happy.
:-)
-
lou_dias wrote:
Must you add this dribble.
Why, is it off topic? :lol: What was the topic again? Oh yeah, "If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.".
Once again, a quick email or phonecall to Hyperion and/or Amiga, inc. could have settled this months ago. Tell you what, I'll help you out. Just cut and paste this into your favorite email application and send it out.
---
Dear Hyperion,
I am the proud owner of a PPC super-computer, better known as the Nintendo Gamecube. Since it already runs Linux PPC, it can surely run Amiga OS4. Please port Amiga OS4 to it and I'll be your best friend.
PS. NINTENDO RULEZ!!!
Signed,
Lou Diaz
---
-
@I wouldn't even call him an adolescent
atleast spell my last name right, will ya
oh and this thread would stay on-topic if it wasn't cluttered with yours and Waccoon's sub-bridge-dwelling remarks.
@Tripitaka
I don't know, the wording on there website leads once too believe that you "could" run it stand-alone "if" an input adpater interface is developed. I haven't been following the actual thread, I'm just basing this on the site information.
If you ask me, classic hardware addons should not rear their heads in this day and age. I think the guy who wants to emulate the hardware on an fpga with a pci adapter interface has the right idea - and only if you care about backwards compatibility. I know I don't.
-
That's why you are what I've always said you are. You made the claim, YOU need to back it up.
I made no claim about in-order or out-of-order execution. I don't see you posting any proof to back up your claim.
It's a well known fact that more cache improves performance.
To a point. After that point, it's a waste of money (or die space, or whatever).
68k emulation is no big deal. There are open source 68k emulators and there is currently a homebrew GC developer writing one.
So, emulators are available. What I said is that you still need memory to run them.
My point is there marketing. What's your point?
That it's marketting BS to say the PSP runs at 300Mhz because it clocks down when the CPU is at idle. It's not BS.
They make it sound like a PSP is as powerful as a PS2
In what way? I certainly didn't bring this up, nor do I follow PSP advertisements.
The exact number is irrelevant. The fact that it's not 100% is the point.
How Sony holds up to the competition is the point.
It's kind of funny to hear an Amiga fan complaining about compatibility, isn't it?
Actually the 2 Zelda N64 games released on the GC as a ore-order bonus for pre-ordering Zelda:The Wind Waker were emualtor based.
Emulator-based is not always backwards-compatible, because you're actually getting re-licensed games on a native medium.
Lots of companies re-release their old games. I didn't have to repurchase my PSX titles or sign up to some subscription service when I got a PS2.
the Atari 5200 had a plug-in module for 2600 backwards compatibility.
I suppose this is equivalent to the Game Boy Player for the GameCube, as the hardware implementation is the same. I had an Atari plug-in module for my Coleco Vision. Does that count as backwards compatibility, or just emulation?
3" discs rare? Yeah, Ok. 3" CDs and DVDs have been around a long time. Look at the center 3" of you PC's DVD player, they all support them. Ritek it the preferred brand for GC pirates.
I think you overlooked something important in my post. :-)
Elder Scrolls is supposedly on 4 DVDs right now
That's because the developers suck. If I can get a 625x500 JPEG photo down to 80K without any visible artifacts, any game developer should be able to make a game that will fit on one count of whatever medium a console uses.
All this horsepower is cool, but it makes developers lazy. I wish developers would look into things like fractal-generated textures. It would help to make the games look more unique every time you play them, too.
I presume cut-scenes are largely to blame. Game developers should stop making "interactive movies" and keep making games.
As for the catride issue...so what, it happened, it's been over with for 7 years.
Well, the cartridges are partly to blame for the company losing their massive market share. They haven't gotten that market back, so it's arguable as to whether the issue is "over."
Because Nintendo is sticking with 480p max, there games will fit on 1 DVD like current gen Xbox games.
The total size of a game is determined by its screen resolution? Low resolution is a virtue?
Yes, I see your point. But, I thought the whole reason for using 3D graphics and vectors and nurbs and all this new-age crap was to make everything resolution independent. Only cut-scenes and other movie clips really justify your argument about low resolution.
I guess you forgot that I play my GC on my 50" DLP HDTV using component cables from my GC's digital video output. It can be modified to display VGA or a separate cable can be purchased. This can be done on the GC because the DAC in built into the cable, not the system.
It's the extra one I bought to put the modchip in that doesn't support the DV out.
My bad. I have a Rev C GameCube, so I can't get a cable to do that. I'm not into used hardware, though, so I guess I'll stick with S-Video.
I do find it annoying that newer versions of hardware, from any manufacturer, might lack features compared to the original design. Also, the VGA cable is pricey.
I'm arguing the application of it. I'm saying it's marketing spin by Sony. You want a PS3, buy it. You don't want a Revolution, don't buy it. I don't care.
Is this a rebuttal or not?
5FPS...Oh that's a good one. I really think you have nothing better to do than write rubbish in this thread.
What's rubbish about it? You blame the choppiness of XBox 360 titles on the inability of developers to use the full capabilites of the tripple-core CPU. This is what's rubbish.
Personally, I think the ease of development with XBox 360 just makes the programmers lazy. As a person who often ends up refactoring other peoples' code, I've seen plenty of this. The more forgiving the language, the sloppier people are at using it, and it drives me nuts.
Don't expect Revolution lauch titles to be as good as the ones developed years later. Nintendo programmers are not immune to the problems faced by XBox 360 and PS3 programmers. Hell, it's pretty much the same hardware, really. It's the dev tools that count.
adolscent: Not true anymore. The micro only supports GBA games. (And, if you re-read what Wacoon said, you'll see he said the portables were backward compatible)
I should've pointed out that by "console", I meant to exclude hand-held systems. Technically, a hand-held system is a console.
Even calling a machine "portable" isn't terribly accurate. Or dare I say it, "REAL CHEAP."
Lou (@ me): I'm still waiting for him to show me a cell phone with 256MB of ram.
I didn't make that claim. Ask adolscent.
-
Waccoon wrote:
That's why you are what I've always said you are. You made the claim, YOU need to back it up.
I made no claim about in-order or out-of-order execution. I don't see you posting any proof to back up your claim.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379&p=8
oops maybe I got the 2 mixed up
68k emulation is no big deal. There are open source 68k emulators and there is currently a homebrew GC developer writing one.
So, emulators are available. What I said is that you still need memory to run them.
you need memory for anything but you don't need more memory until you actually run out
They make it sound like a PSP is as powerful as a PS2
In what way? I certainly didn't bring this up, nor do I follow PSP advertisements.
their claim was the same or more power than a ps2 in a handheld
The exact number is irrelevant. The fact that it's not 100% is the point.
How Sony holds up to the competition is the point.
no, the point is Sony's claims compared to reality
It's kind of funny to hear an Amiga fan complaining about compatibility, isn't it?
no, I'm complaining about their marketing claims. Get it staraight. Taking me out of context again, what a suprise...
Actually the 2 Zelda N64 games released on the GC as a ore-order bonus for pre-ordering Zelda:The Wind Waker were emualtor based.
Emulator-based is not always backwards-compatible, because you're actually getting re-licensed games on a native medium.
You said it wasn't possible to play N64 games on the GC...but it is. Don't dance around it. The GC is powerful enough to do so an enhance it a bit as was done. Obviously the medium required either another hardware like the GBA player or just bundle an emulator with your roms. Nintendo owns all the properties and did as they saw fit.
Also, on there website at one time was a poll of actually getting a N64 compatible player on the GC. Infact Nintendo does alot of polls of it's customers. That's how it keeps them satisfied.
Lots of companies re-release their old games. I didn't have to repurchase my PSX titles or sign up to some subscription service when I got a PS2.
they enhanced the textures and added the "Master Quest" which was previously unreleased. It also was pretty inexpensive.
the Atari 5200 had a plug-in module for 2600 backwards compatibility.
I suppose this is equivalent to the Game Boy Player for the GameCube, as the hardware implementation is the same. I had an Atari plug-in module for my Coleco Vision. Does that count as backwards compatibility, or just emulation?
who cares, no one had to buy the extra hardware if you owned the original
why are you beating a dead horse?
oh, I forgot, that's the rental fee you pay for living under the bridge.
3" discs rare? Yeah, Ok. 3" CDs and DVDs have been around a long time. Look at the center 3" of you PC's DVD player, they all support them. Ritek it the preferred brand for GC pirates.
I think you overlooked something important in my post. :-)
that's ok, with every post in this thread you overlook the actual topic
Elder Scrolls is supposedly on 4 DVDs right now
That's because the developers suck. If I can get a 625x500 JPEG photo down to 80K without any visible artifacts, any game developer should be able to make a game that will fit on one count of whatever medium a console uses.
All this horsepower is cool, but it makes developers lazy. I wish developers would look into things like fractal-generated textures. It would help to make the games look more unique every time you play them, too.
I presume cut-scenes are largely to blame. Game developers should stop making "interactive movies" and keep making games.
not my problem
As for the catride issue...so what, it happened, it's been over with for 7 years.
Well, the cartridges are partly to blame for the company losing their massive market share. They haven't gotten that market back, so it's arguable as to whether the issue is "over."
not my problem, however - my benefit is that the GC is cheap
Because Nintendo is sticking with 480p max, there games will fit on 1 DVD like current gen Xbox games.
The total size of a game is determined by its screen resolution? Low resolution is a virtue?
Yes, I see your point. But, I thought the whole reason for using 3D graphics and vectors and nurbs and all this new-age crap was to make everything resolution independent. Only cut-scenes and other movie clips really justify your argument about low resolution.
Come on now. We know just because you tell a gpu to draw a circle, it will look circular or octogonal depending on things other than the resolution of the screen. Let's not get into that.
My bad. I have a Rev C GameCube, so I can't get a cable to do that. I'm not into used hardware, though, so I guess I'll stick with S-Video.
I do find it annoying that newer versions of hardware, from any manufacturer, might lack features compared to the original design. Also, the VGA cable is pricey.
hey it's Nintendo's fault for not making it available at retail - only through there online store
eventually since not that many consumers invested in it, the feature was removes as a cost-cutting measure.
You can still send them you GC and pay a fee to get a Rev B with the digital video out if you want it. I love it.
I'm arguing the application of it. I'm saying it's marketing spin by Sony. You want a PS3, buy it. You don't want a Revolution, don't buy it. I don't care.
Is this a rebuttal or not?
chalk it up as a "don't care"
Don't expect Revolution lauch titles to be as good as the ones developed years later. Nintendo programmers are not immune to the problems faced by XBox 360 and PS3 programmers. Hell, it's pretty much the same hardware, really. It's the dev tools that count.
Well actually some of the best GCN games came out in the first 2 years. Also since the devkits are the same but with added api's, I do expect Revolution games to be excellent from the start. If I am disappointed - oh well.
Lou (@ me): I'm still waiting for him to show me a cell phone with 256MB of ram.
I didn't make that claim. Ask adolscent.[/quote]
eh - sorry, it's easy to get you 2 confused - if you know what I mean :-P
-
lou_dias wrote:
Waccoon wrote:
That's why you are what I've always said you are. You made the claim, YOU need to back it up.
I made no claim about in-order or out-of-order execution. I don't see you posting any proof to back up your claim.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379&p=8
oops maybe I got the 2 mixed up
68k emulation is no big deal. There are open source 68k emulators and there is currently a homebrew GC developer writing one.
So, emulators are available. What I said is that you still need memory to run them.
you need memory for anything but you don't need more memory until you actually run out
They make it sound like a PSP is as powerful as a PS2
In what way? I certainly didn't bring this up, nor do I follow PSP advertisements.
their claim was the same or more power than a ps2 in a handheld
The exact number is irrelevant. The fact that it's not 100% is the point.
How Sony holds up to the competition is the point.
no, the point is Sony's claims compared to reality
It's kind of funny to hear an Amiga fan complaining about compatibility, isn't it?
no, I'm complaining about their marketing claims. Get it staraight. Taking me out of context again, what a suprise...
Actually the 2 Zelda N64 games released on the GC as a ore-order bonus for pre-ordering Zelda:The Wind Waker were emualtor based.
Emulator-based is not always backwards-compatible, because you're actually getting re-licensed games on a native medium.
You said it wasn't possible to play N64 games on the GC...but it is. Don't dance around it. The GC is powerful enough to do so an enhance it a bit as was done. Obviously the medium required either another hardware like the GBA player or just bundle an emulator with your roms. Nintendo owns all the properties and did as they saw fit.
Also, on there website at one time was a poll of actually getting a N64 compatible player on the GC. Infact Nintendo does alot of polls of it's customers. That's how it keeps them satisfied.
Lots of companies re-release their old games. I didn't have to repurchase my PSX titles or sign up to some subscription service when I got a PS2.
they enhanced the textures and added the "Master Quest" which was previously unreleased. It also was pretty inexpensive.
the Atari 5200 had a plug-in module for 2600 backwards compatibility.
I suppose this is equivalent to the Game Boy Player for the GameCube, as the hardware implementation is the same. I had an Atari plug-in module for my Coleco Vision. Does that count as backwards compatibility, or just emulation?
who cares, no one had to buy the extra hardware if you owned the original
why are you beating a dead horse?
oh, I forgot, that's the rental fee you pay for living under the bridge.
3" discs rare? Yeah, Ok. 3" CDs and DVDs have been around a long time. Look at the center 3" of you PC's DVD player, they all support them. Ritek it the preferred brand for GC pirates.
I think you overlooked something important in my post. :-)
that's ok, with every post in this thread you overlook the actual topic
Elder Scrolls is supposedly on 4 DVDs right now
That's because the developers suck. If I can get a 625x500 JPEG photo down to 80K without any visible artifacts, any game developer should be able to make a game that will fit on one count of whatever medium a console uses.
All this horsepower is cool, but it makes developers lazy. I wish developers would look into things like fractal-generated textures. It would help to make the games look more unique every time you play them, too.
I presume cut-scenes are largely to blame. Game developers should stop making "interactive movies" and keep making games.
not my problem
As for the catride issue...so what, it happened, it's been over with for 7 years.
Well, the cartridges are partly to blame for the company losing their massive market share. They haven't gotten that market back, so it's arguable as to whether the issue is "over."
not my problem, however - my benefit is that the GC is cheap
Because Nintendo is sticking with 480p max, there games will fit on 1 DVD like current gen Xbox games.
The total size of a game is determined by its screen resolution? Low resolution is a virtue?
Yes, I see your point. But, I thought the whole reason for using 3D graphics and vectors and nurbs and all this new-age crap was to make everything resolution independent. Only cut-scenes and other movie clips really justify your argument about low resolution.
Come on now. We know just because you tell a gpu to draw a circle, it will look circular or octogonal depending on things other than the resolution of the screen. Let's not get into that.
My bad. I have a Rev C GameCube, so I can't get a cable to do that. I'm not into used hardware, though, so I guess I'll stick with S-Video.
I do find it annoying that newer versions of hardware, from any manufacturer, might lack features compared to the original design. Also, the VGA cable is pricey.
hey it's Nintendo's fault for not making it available at retail - only through there online store
eventually since not that many consumers invested in it, the feature was removes as a cost-cutting measure.
You can still send them you GC and pay a fee to get a Rev B with the digital video out if you want it. I love it.
I'm arguing the application of it. I'm saying it's marketing spin by Sony. You want a PS3, buy it. You don't want a Revolution, don't buy it. I don't care.
Is this a rebuttal or not?
chalk it up as a "don't care"
Don't expect Revolution lauch titles to be as good as the ones developed years later. Nintendo programmers are not immune to the problems faced by XBox 360 and PS3 programmers. Hell, it's pretty much the same hardware, really. It's the dev tools that count.
Well actually some of the best GCN games came out in the first 2 years. Also since the devkits are the same but with added api's, I do expect Revolution games to be excellent from the start. If I am disappointed - oh well.
Lou (@ me): I'm still waiting for him to show me a cell phone with 256MB of ram.
I didn't make that claim. Ask adolscent.
eh - sorry, it's easy to get you 2 confused - if you know what I mean :-P [/quote]
I'm supprised you guys didnt run out of memory binging this post back and forth. Good god, look at all the quotes and requotes.
-
wow, that's like the pot calling the kettle "black".
You didn't have to quote it just to say that. :afro:
-
@lou-dias
You don't care about backwards compatability? mmm, I guess I don't either when I think about it I would much rather see a modern Amiga with modern software. I use Photoshop & DVD Maestro extensively at work and then have to admit complete defeat at finding a DVD Authoring package on my favourite platform...arse! I guess that lack of industry support (as well as the longevity extending effects of datatypes and arexx) means that we can, and do use software that should have been updated ages ago. This in turn means more Amigans feel the need for backwards compatability to run progs that are familiar. I think it is obvious that what we need is a lot more OS4 Progs....and of course OS4 itself.
The stand alone mode could be cool, I have learnt by now however that SEEING IS BELIEVING. I'm still waiting for Dragon coldfire. :-o
-
Yes, we need a market where new software AND hardware is being purchase. Developers aren't making money when you want to run a 20-year old app.
I mean, you can add all the accelerators you want to the old hardware...but wouldn't some nice new software that takes full advantage of the new hardware be better?
Look at the console industry.
Hardware is upgraded about every 5 years.
Many software titles are released...with upgraded versions over time (as in like Madden '05 -> Madden '06)
New software is what drives the business. One major harware purchase, many software purchases. Infact, the hardware upgrade is driven by the demands of the software.
People still run classic hardware because - and only because - they want to run classic software.
BTW, an operating system is software...lest anyone forget.
-
The Amiga for me was and is more than the OS however. The hardware offers unique advantages with drag screens, auto configuration et al. I would like to see modern hardware & software but I would still like to see dragable screens, RGB video output (in HD through DVI please) but most of all we need to be kept informed.
Elbox need to update the Dragon news.
Eyetech need to reply to customers orders.
We could do with an OS4 release date too. :lol:
-
so you didn't see the last OS4 video with dragable screens?
hardware today is more than powerful enough to run circles around anything classic hardware could do
just give me the OS on the hardware of my choice and let the apps fly
-
lou_dias wrote:
so you didn't see the last OS4 video with dragable screens?
hardware today is more than powerful enough to run circles around anything classic hardware could do
just give me the OS on the hardware of my choice and let the apps fly[/quote]
mm..forgot about that, sh*t! I must be going senile. It was that ;) I did in m'youth.
Well I guess I have to agree. I just whant to see some decent software on OS4. I'm not saying what's there is not good but I can't see any DVD authoring software and Video is sadly lacking as a whole. So yes, let's have our OS of choice on modern hardware and let's have some apps too. :-D
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, we need a market where new software AND hardware is being purchase. Developers aren't making money when you want to run a 20-year old app.
I mean, you can add all the accelerators you want to the old hardware...but wouldn't some nice new software that takes full advantage of the new hardware be better?
Look at the console industry.
Hardware is upgraded about every 5 years.
Many software titles are released...with upgraded versions over time (as in like Madden '05 -> Madden '06)
New software is what drives the business. One major harware purchase, many software purchases. Infact, the hardware upgrade is driven by the demands of the software.
People still run classic hardware because - and only because - they want to run classic software.
BTW, an operating system is software...lest anyone forget.
As for console hardware being updated every 5 years, pc hardware is updated all year round, mac hardware a little less. I'd love to see aros on GC, it would bring some attention to the aros platform. Thats about all it's worth, attention. I wouldnt use it, but it would be mad cool, and lots of people would mess with it, and maybe a few of thoes people would contribute towards aros progress.
I support amiga and amiga like systems, along with all the other platforms, as i would definately not like to see a computing monoculture where everybody runs the same proc and OS. Security and interoperability are best realised through having many different architectures interacting with one another via clearly defined standards.
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Consoles may be updated every 5 years, but they are limited devices, developed for specific purposes. People want a general purpose machine at a reasonable price. Many people i know have run linux or netbsd on their dreamcast/xbox/ps2/gamecube. None of thoes people are still messing with it. It's just not usefull. Most geeks will buy a new PC every 2 years. (i'm a little slow, i get a new box about every 5 years, i dont need stuff for games)
I ran netbsd on my dreamcast. It was cool. I even have the keyboard and ethernet device. Totally useless. Gotta NFS for store, use a TV for display... Limited memory.... I have a 75MHz laptop with 32mb memory and 1gig drive which is more usefull... Again linux on gamecube, the 75MHz pentium laptop is much more usefull, and i got that laptop for free. Many such laptops can be bought for next to nothing.
What amiga needs is a BSD layer. This way they would suck in a hudge developer base, like apple did. The geeks would fawn over it, and the commercial types would learn the proprietaty amiga stuff. Then they might do a GC port, and utiliize that 16mb audio buffer for a special port of GCFireFox.
yes, ive been drinking(heavily)
Corona, Heniken, guiness, and ice house. Beer is good, amiga needs more beer. I think i will pour beer into my game cube now.
-
koaftder wrote:
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Suck my what?
-
I didn't say i not have a 1200, i have one and well expanded, i only told that the ack boards according to the text announced, could be put into an a1200 case withouth going to find an strange and overpriced custom case, just using the classic case.
Of course, you could put it in whatever you want, the choice here is irrelevant, anynone has his own ideas and choices, i only stated the fact.
-
has anyone seen the developer leaked stats on
http://revolution.ign.com ?
Revolution is a direct upgrade for the GC with supposedly 100% backwards HARDWARE compatibility.
It will have about 96MB of main T1-RAM and double the clockspeed of the GC. I wonder if it is getting an 800MHz Gekko or and 800Mhz G5... Also the Flipper is updated to double the clock rate (400Mhz and is to incorporate Radeon technology)....
If there connect the external devices that same way (EXI bus) but with a faster bus... It seems that all GC "hacks" may be compatible with Revolution. Worst cast is that the video frame buffer driver might have to be rewritten.
Thanks to USB 2.0 ports and direct SD card compatibility and built-in wi-fi, I may be running Linux on the Revolution before anyone runs it on the 360.
Lest we not forget the possible $99-150 price point.
Now that's what I call a
"potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP"
:-D
Let me remind people that VERY EARLY on in this thread, I stated that any development work done getting AOS4 onto the GC could carry over to Revolution. :rtfm:
I hate to say - "I told you so!"
No I lied.
:smack:
I am happy to say "I told you so!" :lol:
:laughing:
:-P
:flame:
-
lou_dias wrote:
Let me remind people that VERY EARLY on in this thread, I stated that any development work done getting AOS4 onto the GC could carry over to Revolution. :rtfm:
Wow! So all the OS4 development work that hasn't been done on Gamecube could carry over and not be done on the Revolution either!
That's quite a prediction. :crazy:
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Let me remind people that VERY EARLY on in this thread, I stated that any development work done getting AOS4 onto the GC could carry over to Revolution. :rtfm:
Wow! So all the OS4 development work that hasn't been done on Gamecube could carry over and not be done on the Revolution either!
That's quite a prediction. :crazy:
Hey, where's that 256MB cell phone? :roll:
-
lou_dias wrote:
Hey, where's that 256MB cell phone? :roll:
Edit: Never mind, I went back and re-read your posts to see what you are talking about.
I misread it as 26MB (since you were comparing a cell phone to the GCN). Where did the 256MB number come from anyway? I've always said that the RAM and a lack of local storage (among other things) are what will keep the GCN from being a real computer.
-
that number came from the implied memory requirements of any serious modern OS that you say rules out the GC...
how about 96MB? That's what Revolution is supposedly coming with.
-
bloodline wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Suck my what?
I'll take it your commenting about the aros statement.
I like aros, now that gcc runs on it, it's been much much more useable for what i do.
My gripe with aros is the lack of memory protection and other things. I really would like to see aros on the L4 kernel.
-
koaftder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Suck my what?
I'll take it your commenting about the aros statement.
I like aros, now that gcc runs on it, it's been much much more useable for what i do.
My gripe with aros is the lack of memory protection and other things. I really would like to see aros on the L4 kernel.
LOL, gcc's been running on GC-Linux for some time now. But since it's Linux I guess that doesn't count. On a brighter note, there is some interest in GC-AROS.
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Suck my what?
I'll take it your commenting about the aros statement.
I like aros, now that gcc runs on it, it's been much much more useable for what i do.
My gripe with aros is the lack of memory protection and other things. I really would like to see aros on the L4 kernel.
LOL, gcc's been running on GC-Linux for some time now. But since it's Linux I guess that doesn't count. On a brighter note, there is some interest in GC-AROS.
I run linux on several machines, the one i use most is a mac mini with ubuntu. I could run linux on my gamecube, but it doesnt make sense to do so ( for me anyway ) as i have some 2 dozen machines laying around ( check out http://koft.net/pix/setup.jpg , see what i mean?)
If i went to the boss and suggested buying some 300 dollars worth of kit to get a gamecube running linux so i could do some development work, he would think i started smoking crack.
when gcc was finally working on aros, it was good news. It made some headlines and attracted some attention to the aros project, which was a good thing.
-
check out http://koft.net/pix/setup.jpg
WOW do you get time to use 10% of the computers i have 4 boxes running daily but only use about 2 havent got time for more
adonay :-D
-
adonay wrote:
check out http://koft.net/pix/setup.jpg
WOW do you get time to use 10% of the computers i have 4 boxes running daily but only use about 2 havent got time for more
adonay :-D
There are only 2 machines i regulary interact with, the PC with the 4 monitors and the small powerbook. The powerbook is mostly for email and web surfing. I write all my stuff on the pc.
One machine is my firewall, running freebsd. Some of the macs are for apache/php/mysql development, others are for testing mac applications i'm writing. I got another pc running w2k3, it's for asp development.
Another machine is my fileserver. One machine for web proxy, another for my IDS.
I switch back and forth between windows/osx/linux/bsd all day long for one thing or another. Each platform has it's strengths and weakness.
-
My gripe with aros is the lack of memory protection and other things. I really would like to see aros on the L4 kernel.
AROS does run on linux but also without memory protection between the programs. Unfortunately getting memory protection under AROS involves much more then porting to some kernel that provides memory protection. At the moment programs have to be able to see each other memory.
Staf.
-
koaftder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Amiga wont live unless it opens up, and thats not likely to happen. Aros is going about things the wrong way by staying in the stonage.
Suck my what?
I'll take it your commenting about the aros statement.
I like aros, now that gcc runs on it, it's been much much more useable for what i do.
My gripe with aros is the lack of memory protection and other things. I really would like to see aros on the L4 kernel.
As Staf has already ponted out that adding MP to AROS would break the API... AmigaOS was simply never designed to support it...
I would also like to see AROS on L4... but only because I rather like the L4 kernel design... a bit like Plan9 and Mach!
-
I think the best solution at this point would be to write new system calls that are MP safe and then use the MMU to catch direct writes and translate them into the newer system calls. It would be kind of slow, but given the kind of hardware older Amiga programs were designed to run on, I don't see this being a big problem.
It would be a lot work, but it's the only way AROS can have it's cake and eat it too.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
I think the best solution at this point would be to write new system calls that are MP safe and then use the MMU to catch direct writes and translate them into the newer system calls. It would be kind of slow, but given the kind of hardware older Amiga programs were designed to run on, I don't see this being a big problem.
It would be a lot work, but it's the only way AROS can have it's cake and eat it too.
The best solution is to run nonMP safe apps in a sandbox. Then Expose an new API... (L4?) for modern apps.
-
Quite disappointing specifications for the Revolution there. Still, if it means a cheap console ($149) instead of a $299 one... it could sell quite well being better than the XBox.
96MB isn't a lot of memory however. However when you are only targetting standard definition games you cut the texture memory to a quarter ... 256MB of textures becomes 64MB. It'll probably cut it for games, but it isn't enough for a standard OS + modern applications.
If Nintendo sells them for a profit from the first day, maybe they won't care about people hacking them either. Maybe Linux will be running on it within weeks of release.
You would have thought that they'd have done better than doubling the clock speed in 5 years though! Misinformation? The original clockspeed was 485MHz. Will it really be 970MHz or less? Maybe it'll have more cache...
-
They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.
I think they went as faster as they could go without requiring a fan on the cpu. To quite Iwata "small, effiecent and quiet".
GC multiplied by 2.5 (benchmark) is not a bad thing at all. Add to that the 2 UBB 2.0 ports and built-in wireless capability.
Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack and also the easiest for real developers to code for.
Nintendo literally just upgraded the GC to create Revolution. GC backwards compatability is in the hardware thru the natural virtue of the hardware upgrades. I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB. That PPU will be used for AI and physics letting the rest of the system do other things. I can't believe they will leave the texture cache at 3MB... I think that's just the cpu upgraded version of the devkit that was quoting that number.
In the end, Revolution will still have that awesome controller to reel in the masses. And I believe they will come.
Also, Nintendo has some graphics patents up it's sleeve:
http://nintendo-revolution.blogspot.com/2005/12/is-displacement-mapping-last-secret.html
-
lou_dias wrote:
They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.
So much for that whole 3-5x powerful bit eh? I guess their original statement of 2-3x more powerful may have been correct after all.
Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack
I don't see how you come to this conclusion. There were PS2 and XBox modchips long before there were any for the Gamecube and if I were Nintendo I would make sure to tweak the authentication enough to make sure the current mod chips don't work.
and also the easiest for real developers to code for.
Easiest to use to it's full potential perhaps, but if the recent rumors are true then you don't have to use the 360 or PS3 to their full potential to get better performance than the Revolution. All the extra complexity from writing games on the 360 is from the multiple cores, but even using a single core the 360 is more powerful than the Revolution as described in the recent rumors.
I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB.
Well the recent rumors suggest that the ARAM will stay at 16MB and unless they do throw in some crazy physics processor there's really no good reason for them to increase it.
That PPU will be used for AI and physics letting the rest of the system do other things.
PPUs aren't terribly useful for AI. As the name would suggest they're pretty much there exclusively to do physics.
In the end, Revolution will still have that awesome controller to reel in the masses. And I believe they will come.
The controller uses a cool concept, but the execution screams compromise. It's attempts to be simple and approachable are undermined by its efforts to be good for the current game market (analog dongle and shell) and its efforts to be a good retro platform (turn it sidewise for NES, add the shell for everything else). In my mind these compromises defeat the purpose of having so few buttons and a remote-control like layout in the first place. If it wasn't button-sparse and remote control shaped it would be better for the other two purposes. The result is that its suboptimal for both.
The unwashed non-gamer and casual gamer masses is going to be hard to capture. These are people that don't buy game consoles. If anything they play games on their PC (because they already have it) or buy those little joysticks with built-in games that you plug into your TV. That's not to say that Nintendo can't capture that market, but it's hardly a slam dunk at this point.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.
So much for that whole 3-5x powerful bit eh? I guess their original statement of 2-3x more powerful may have been correct after all.
Yeah...but it's still an early version of the finished chip. The final one could be faster.
Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack
I don't see how you come to this conclusion. There were PS2 and XBox modchips long before there were any for the Gamecube and if I were Nintendo I would make sure to tweak the authentication enough to make sure the current mod chips don't work.
The GC was hacked last because of popularity not design. Revolution will probably employ a similar method. The big copyprotection scheme was in the barcode on the GC discs. I think Nintendo realizes that copy protecting the media is easier than copyprotecting the IPL.
and also the easiest for real developers to code for.
Easiest to use to it's full potential perhaps, but if the recent rumors are true then you don't have to use the 360 or PS3 to their full potential to get better performance than the Revolution. All the extra complexity from writing games on the 360 is from the multiple cores, but even using a single core the 360 is more powerful than the Revolution as described in the recent rumors.
Well, a single 360 core was said to be barely 2x more powerful than the Xbox's cpu. So if developers are saying the benchmark is 2.5x more powerful than the GC, then I would say that Revolution can handle anything that's on the 360 today.
I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB.
Well the recent rumors suggest that the ARAM will stay at 16MB and unless they do throw in some crazy physics processor there's really no good reason for them to increase it.
The recent rumors are still based on the original Flipper. The GPU is not finished yet. Nintendo just said to target atleast double the performance.
The unwashed non-gamer and casual gamer masses is going to be hard to capture. These are people that don't buy game consoles. If anything they play games on their PC (because they already have it) or buy those little joysticks with built-in games that you plug into your TV. That's not to say that Nintendo can't capture that market, but it's hardly a slam dunk at this point.
That person will be able to play NES games online against other people. That's who it will be a hit with. Nintendo is attacking XBox Live head on. Only Nintendo has a better catalog of games. While Geometry Wars is a great game on XBL, who's really heard of it? I just wonder how they will manage the "micro-transactions".
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, a single 360 core was said to be barely 2x more powerful than the Xbox's cpu. So if developers are saying the benchmark is 2.5x more powerful than the GC,
A single PPE core on the 360 is said to have about the same performance as a 1.7GHz P3 on unoptimized code. The XBox CPU ran at about 733 MHz and had less cache than a proper P3. The 360 also has 4x the memory of the Revolution and will probably have a more powerful GPU as well.
then I would say that Revolution can handle anything that's on the 360 today.
I doubt it could handle PGR3, but that uses more than one core. The others are debateable I suppose, but that doesn't make the Revolution easier to develop for. Equal for a given graphical quality level, but not easier.
-
I hear what you are saying but when developers already know how to develop for the GC, there's practically no learning curve for developiong for Revolution except for finding new performance limits since the api is practically identical.
-
As Staf has already ponted out that adding MP to AROS would break the API... AmigaOS was simply never designed to support it...
Then what does the R stand for in AROS?
I wonder what the point of it is sometimes. Sure adding MP would break the API, but when you're not running old applications (because you can't) what does it matter? In order for something to run on AROS you need the source code anyway, why not try to be a bit more adventurous?
In 2005(nearly 2006!) what does AROS actually bring to the table? Will AROS end up being remembered soley as that project that got rid of dithering in the colourwheel.gadget?
Amiga-like and Modern OS needn't be mutually exclusive.
-
uncharted wrote:
As Staf has already ponted out that adding MP to AROS would break the API... AmigaOS was simply never designed to support it...
Then what does the R stand for in AROS?
I wonder what the point of it is sometimes. Sure adding MP would break the API, but when you're not running old applications (because you can't) what does it matter? In order for something to run on AROS you need the source code anyway, why not try to be a bit more adventurous?
The AmigaOS API was actually broken (rather the designers made a trade off) by design. Adding MP doesn't simply mean a recompile... it means rewriting the app.
In 2005(nearly 2006!) what does AROS actually bring to the table? Will AROS end up being remembered soley as that project that got rid of dithering in the colourwheel.gadget?
It brings to the table, the option to add a feature like MP to AmigaOS, you have the source code, it's there, it's free... do with it whatever you like. If someone shoehorns MP into it and it works really well... then it will be accepted. All AROS gives you is options, something that as Amiga users we are not really used too.
Amiga-like and Modern OS needn't be mutually exclusive.
hmmm... Amiga-Like is not the same as AmigaOS :-)
-
On a brighter note, I've recently heard from someone who is going to attempt to port AROS to the GC. He put his system together for $151 and I just sold him an SD memory card adapter for $10 with shipping and paypal fee included. So I guess he's up to $161 in costs. Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.
-
That would be me. I was a little leery of posting in this thread because of all the arguing. :-D
As to my motivation - well, I like PPC systems and the GC is really cheap these days. I was thinking of getting one anyway for a few games it has. Killing two birds with one stone and all... :lol:
In fact, the way I found this thread was looking around for an SD Gecko for the GC since my only other choice was a similar device from Lik-Sang for $30 + S&H. I plan to keep folks here and at the AROS forum abreast of how it goes, so there will be plenty of time for more arguing the pros and cons of Amiga-like OSes on the GC. ;-)
-
JLF65 wrote:
I plan to keep folks here and at the AROS forum abreast of how it goes, so there will be plenty of time for more arguing the pros and cons of Amiga-like OSes on the GC. ;-)
Good luck!
-
lou_dias wrote:
Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.
Looked at the prices of older Mac PPC's lately? You can get a B&W for well under $100 (not including monitor).
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.
Looked at the prices of older Mac PPC's lately? You can get a B&W for well under $100 (not including monitor).
I got my 450 b&w powermac for 120, 20 gig drive, 256Mb ram, a year ago off ebay. It's got firewire, usb, and vga connector, and drives a 1600x1200 lcd just fine... I guess i got ripped, being that i could have gotten a game cube for a little less and all.
-
b&w - black and white?
Yeah, you both got ripped off.
-
lou_dias wrote:
b&w - black and white?
Yeah, you both got ripped off.
Blue and white case( actually mines more green and white ).
Yea i got totally ripped off, my game cube is so much more usefull than a system with 256mb ram, 20 gig drive and vga interface @ 1600x1200 (24 bit color too) running osx
-
Yes, you can occasionally get older iMacs off eBay for under $200. I've seen the original 233MHz iMac for as low as $75. That is certainly the way to go if you just want a plain PPC system. I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.
But $150 for a 486MHz G3 with 24M of fast SRAM is still very cheap. It's also easier to find a GC system for that price than an iMac for less than $200. Most used iMacs go for $300 to $400 depending on the amount of memory and size of the harddrive. It's rare to see better than the original 233MHz iMac with 32M of 66MHz SDRAM for less than $200.
If you are looking to run linux or OSX, go with the best iMac you can find on eBay. If you are looking to play games, go with the GC. It's just a matter of how you intend to use the system beyond any Amiga-ish usage. I've already got an iMac and was more interested in something that also played games. The A500 and A1200 were game machines that also ran AmigaOS programs. Using a GC to run AROS would continue that tradition nicely. While there are Mac games you could use on an iMac, there aren't nearly as many, nor are they as good as the games on the GC (with a few exceptions).
-
JLF65 wrote:
Yes, you can occasionally get older iMacs off eBay for under $200. I've seen the original 233MHz iMac for as low as $75. That is certainly the way to go if you just want a plain PPC system. I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.
But $150 for a 486MHz G3 with 24M of fast SRAM is still very cheap. It's also easier to find a GC system for that price than an iMac for less than $200. Most used iMacs go for $300 to $400 depending on the amount of memory and size of the harddrive. It's rare to see better than the original 233MHz iMac with 32M of 66MHz SDRAM for less than $200.
If you are looking to run linux or OSX, go with the best iMac you can find on eBay. If you are looking to play games, go with the GC. It's just a matter of how you intend to use the system beyond any Amiga-ish usage. I've already got an iMac and was more interested in something that also played games. The A500 and A1200 were game machines that also ran AmigaOS programs. Using a GC to run AROS would continue that tradition nicely. While there are Mac games you could use on an iMac, there aren't nearly as many, nor are they as good as the games on the GC (with a few exceptions).
Ive been pretty happy with my gamecube. Only have two games worth playing though, the 2 metroid games. The GC controller is nice. Ive always bought my consoles 2nd hand and one generation behind. It seems theres less than a dozen games worth playing during the life of a console, might as well get it when the games are under 20 bucks a pop.
It funny, on GC metroid prime never seems to drop a frame even when the scenes get complex, it's always rock solid. On other games like Super Mario Sunshine, sometimes simple scenes made the machine bog down to almost unplayable.
If you guys manage to hack a usb host controller onto the GC, you'll be able to drive a usb->VGA video card. Writing the drivers wouldnt be fun, but it would be doable.
-
JLF65 wrote:
(...) I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.
That is just great new. AROS needs heroes. I'm just wondering, will you have the time to achieve anything before Lou got OS4 fully ported to NGC (NFS and all) ? :-P
-
JLF65 wrote:
Yes, you can occasionally get older iMacs off eBay for under $200. I've seen the original 233MHz iMac for as low as $75. That is certainly the way to go if you just want a plain PPC system. I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.
But $150 for a 486MHz G3 with 24M of fast SRAM is still very cheap. It's also easier to find a GC system for that price than an iMac for less than $200. Most used iMacs go for $300 to $400 depending on the amount of memory and size of the harddrive. It's rare to see better than the original 233MHz iMac with 32M of 66MHz SDRAM for less than $200.
If you are looking to run linux or OSX, go with the best iMac you can find on eBay.
Powermac G3s go for less than $100 on eBay. No need to look at an iMac. The Powermac has more expansion possibilities and will likely cost less to ship. No need to wait around either, there are plenty that are under $100 in auctions that are about to end within hours. Old iMacs might be hard to find on the cheap but old Powermacs are not.
As for the game machine part, certainly the Gamecube is a better games machine than the Mac, but I would argue that the Amiga was more readily equiped as a computer for it's time than the Gamecube. Not that I'm trying to dissuade you from doing the port. I like to see funky operating systems running on funky game consoles myself.
-
In about a month and a half, this thread will be 1 year old! It's first birthday! A celebration is in order for sure.
We need a poll here, how do you intend to celebrate the 1 year anniversary of the Nintendamiga thread?
1) Get drunk and paint red and white checker patterns on the game cube
2) March through the streets dressed up as a gamecube console and inform everybody that amiga os 4 will be released for gamecube *any day now!*
3) Print out a screen shot from AOS 4 beta you found on the web, and tape it on the front of your television set and invite your friends over to witness amiga os on the gamecube.
4) Dress up as aros the cat logo and yiff & skritch every body at your local star trek convention and tell everybody that game cube makes you purr.
5) Goto your local glue sniffers anonymous meeting, and inform everybody that you do not sniff glue, "But you just saved a bundle by switching to gamecube as your main computing platform" ( you can dooooo iiiiit )
6) Spend your time pursuing the opposite sex.
-
MskoDestny wrote:
Powermac G3s go for less than $100 on eBay. No need to look at an iMac. The Powermac has more expansion possibilities and will likely cost less to ship. No need to wait around either, there are plenty that are under $100 in auctions that are about to end within hours. Old iMacs might be hard to find on the cheap but old Powermacs are not.
I agree. iMacs are a bit overpriced and underpowered, but probably good for kids or students that need something small.
My old Mac is just a Beige G3 MT which I got for $45 a year ago (I've got about $200 into it now). These days you can get a Sawtooth for under $200.
-
koaftder wrote:
In about a month and a half, this thread will be 1 year old! It's first birthday! A celebration is in order for sure.
We need a poll here, how do you intend to celebrate the 1 year anniversary of the Nintendamiga thread?
1) Get drunk and paint red and white checker patterns on the game cube
2) March through the streets dressed up as a gamecube console and inform everybody that amiga os 4 will be released for gamecube *any day now!*
3) Print out a screen shot from AOS 4 beta you found on the web, and tape it on the front of your television set and invite your friends over to witness amiga os on the gamecube.
4) Dress up as aros the cat logo and yiff & skritch every body at your local star trek convention and tell everybody that game cube makes you purr.
5) Goto your local glue sniffers anonymous meeting, and inform everybody that you do not sniff glue, "But you just saved a bundle by switching to gamecube as your main computing platform" ( you can dooooo iiiiit )
6) Spend your time pursuing the opposite sex.
I think I will just ponder how much effort was wasted trolling instead of petitioning or coding.
Personally, I think you all are quite bitter about the fact that Revolution is shaping up to be a clear and easy upgrade path for any work that could have went into Amicube. At $199 or less NEW at launch with an 800-900Mhz processor, 104 MB of ram and built-in USB 2.0 ports, SD adapter ports, wi-fi capabilities and a DVD drive that it is quite an ideal platform for a capable future Amiga.
Being able to send apps to a Ninendo DS such as Jabberwacky wouldn't be too bad either. So many possibilities...
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
In about a month and a half, this thread will be 1 year old! It's first birthday! A celebration is in order for sure.
We need a poll here, how do you intend to celebrate the 1 year anniversary of the Nintendamiga thread?
1) Get drunk and paint red and white checker patterns on the game cube
2) March through the streets dressed up as a gamecube console and inform everybody that amiga os 4 will be released for gamecube *any day now!*
3) Print out a screen shot from AOS 4 beta you found on the web, and tape it on the front of your television set and invite your friends over to witness amiga os on the gamecube.
4) Dress up as aros the cat logo and yiff & skritch every body at your local star trek convention and tell everybody that game cube makes you purr.
5) Goto your local glue sniffers anonymous meeting, and inform everybody that you do not sniff glue, "But you just saved a bundle by switching to gamecube as your main computing platform" ( you can dooooo iiiiit )
6) Spend your time pursuing the opposite sex.
I think I will just ponder how much effort was wasted trolling instead of petitioning or coding.
Personally, I think you all are quite bitter about the fact that Revolution is shaping up to be a clear and easy upgrade path for any work that could have went into Amicube. At $199 or less NEW at launch with an 800-900Mhz processor, 104 MB of ram and built-in USB 2.0 ports, SD adapter ports, wi-fi capabilities and a DVD drive that it is quite an ideal platform for a capable future Amiga.
Being able to send apps to a Ninendo DS such as Jabberwacky wouldn't be too bad either. So many possibilities...
800-900MHz and 104mb ram. Wow, i had a much more capable system back in 2001. One can find a PC with specs like that for less than 100 dollars. ( with vga interface and at least 2x the memory and a 20 gig harddrive, ethernet, etc )
Yea, i'm bitter about that. How will i sleep at night, knowing that i didnt jump on the nintendamiga bandwagon. Why i could be runnin aros on a 900Mhz machine hooked up to my TV and surfing porn in ascii mode with an ssh session to my mac using lynx. Someday if i just pray hard enough i will come to my senses and beg for forgiveness and buy 300 dollars worth of nintendo crap just to impress my friends of how leet i am to be running a sub par OS on my sub par video game console.
My friends will probably beat me senseless and steal my machine and use it to play video games, oh the shame i will have felt. Bitter feelings indeed.
:crazy:
On a side note, people doing cool things with hardware is ok in my book. Hackin is all about doing wierd things on wierd stuff and having a good time. Aros on game cube will get some attention to the platform and provide a few people with some kicks. Its always going to be a toy though and nothing more. At that, a half developed, slightly unusuable toy that few will bother with. Theres a lot linux nuts out there, how many of them are actually doing anything with linux on the gamecube? not many, probably cause it's not very usefull.
-
Well, I haven't entered this thread yet, I've been laughing at a lot of the trolling, etc though. I guess I can see what lou_dias is saying, at $200 US at launch, a 900mhz Rev is getting awfully close to an AmigaOne solution, and blows any classic Amy out of the water. The original Commodore machines made sense as consoles with a business-capable OS on them, and there's really no reason somebody couldn't do something like that now. I would guarantee that if somebody created a user-friendly stable OS on $200 hardware, thousands of companies worldwide would switch immediately. Now, I'm not saying that the GC or the Rev is that answer at all, it's likely not suitable for that at all. But, if people are prepared to try to make progress like this, then all the power to them. Just think of sitting in your couch and surfing the net with the Rev controller :-D
-
@koaftder
I stopped comparing Amiga value to PC value around 1997. I own an Athlon XP 3200 with 1GB of 400MHz DDR ram and a 300GB HD, does that mean that any Amiga machine that doesn't hold up against those specs is worthless to me? If you can leave garbage like the first 2/3 of your message off this thread, maybe we wouldn't have scared away more people like Darklight for so long.
You can piss and moan about Linux on the GC not being useful, but Linux is only useful for whatever a user decides to compile for their installation. That's why Linux is useless to me and 99% of all PC users.
Here's the bottomline. You, Waccoon and adolescent all own GC's. Yet you are the biggest "critics" (being nice) here. Infact, I'd venture to say there are more people who frequent this site that own GC's than real Amigas or use them daily.
If Hyperion released an OS4 "lite" to try out on the GC, alot of people would scoop it up. They could then release a Revolution "patch" to take advantage of the extra capabilities.
I don't expect AOS on GC/Rev/360/PS3/XBOX/DC to ever replace my PC, but it sure would be cool and fun to try out. That alone could help the platform grow
if done properly.
@Darklight
Yes, it is all about the controller!
-
MskoDestny wrote:
Powermac G3s go for less than $100 on eBay. No need to look at an iMac. The Powermac has more expansion possibilities and will likely cost less to ship. No need to wait around either, there are plenty that are under $100 in auctions that are about to end within hours. Old iMacs might be hard to find on the cheap but old Powermacs are not.
Ah, right. Sorry, I was stuck in iMac mode. :-D Yes, the PowerMacs were a nice line and are pretty cheap. Those cases are also pretty classy. Apple always made nice looking stuff at least. I wasn't thinking about them because you can't exactly fit the motherboard into an A1200 shell... which was what I've been looking to do - stick SOMETHING in an A1200 shell that gave me an "updated" A1200. That's where the suggestion to use an iBook came from, to which I mentioned that would be nice, but was too expensive which led to all these posts on which Macs sell cheap on eBay. :lol:
As for the game machine part, certainly the Gamecube is a better games machine than the Mac, but I would argue that the Amiga was more readily equiped as a computer for it's time than the Gamecube. Not that I'm trying to dissuade you from doing the port. I like to see funky operating systems running on funky game consoles myself.
Yes, consoles usually require more to make them into general purpose computers. For example, I had to get the broadband adapter and a keyboard adapter to go with the GC. That adds to the cost. I think there are two ideas behind putting regular OSes on consoles: 1) as you said, seeing a funky OS on a funky console interests quite a few people; and 2) having an OS on the console makes it easier to do programs for the console. For example, look at what you can run on the PS2 in linux compared to what straight homebrew on the PS2 offers.
Mind you, I feel programming straight on the console is more fun, but a little beyond many folks. It's like comparing demo programmers who took over the Amiga to folks who wrote programs which didn't take over the Amiga. Putting some kind of Amiga-like OS on the GC would certainly make it easier to do certain games, like DOOM, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Descent, Abuse, etc... open source games which have already been ported to the Amiga. While there is a working linux for GC, AmigaOS is quite a bit more lean, so certain programs have the possiblity of running better.
-
by lou_dias
I don't expect AOS on GC/Rev/360/PS3/XBOX/DC to ever replace my PC, but it sure would be cool and fun to try out.
I ask, why limit yourself to AOS? I'd prefer to see something a little more innovative.
I've no doubt Nintendo could produce their own OS, that would be more fun to use than some obscure desktop-derived OS.
I see the next gen' consoles as a testing ground for new (and FUN!) ways to interact with computer tech. I for one would be quite dissapointed if they presented us with boring, more-of-the-same-2D-windows-like interfaces.
-
coldfish wrote:
I see the next gen' consoles as a testing ground for new (and FUN!) ways to interact with computer tech. I for one would be quite dissapointed if they presented us with boring, more-of-the-same-2D-windows-like interfaces.
That's why it's going to be all about the Revolution controller. You'll be able to drag "icons" in 3d space...
-
lou_dias wrote:
@koaftder
I stopped comparing Amiga value to PC value around 1997. I own an Athlon XP 3200 with 1GB of 400MHz DDR ram and a 300GB HD, does that mean that any Amiga machine that doesn't hold up against those specs is worthless to me? If you can leave garbage like the first 2/3 of your message off this thread, maybe we wouldn't have scared away more people like Darklight for so long.
Now your saying you arent comparing the hardware to generally avaiable pc/mac hardware. Strange, because thats the opposite of half your posts in the past. Which one is it?
You can piss and moan about Linux on the GC not being useful, but Linux is only useful for whatever a user decides to compile for their installation. That's why Linux is useless to me and 99% of all PC users.
Most linux users out there arent compiling anything from their perspective. They just click on the app manager, select a program they want and click install.
Here's the bottomline. You, Waccoon and adolescent all own GC's. Yet you are the biggest "critics" (being nice) here. Infact, I'd venture to say there are more people who frequent this site that own GC's than real Amigas or use them daily.
Yea, i own a GC, so what? I use it to play video games.
If Hyperion released an OS4 "lite" to try out on the GC, alot of people would scoop it up. They could then release a Revolution "patch" to take advantage of the extra capabilities.
I don't expect AOS on GC/Rev/360/PS3/XBOX/DC to ever replace my PC, but it sure would be cool and fun to try out. That alone could help the platform grow
if done properly.
blah blah blah whatever. Now your saying that it would be cool and fun toy, earlier you were pimping it as the next potential amiga, a vehicle for keeping the platform alive.
Anyway, you'll get your chance to schlick your ideas to the AmigaOS developers on IRC next week. Maybe you can discuss how hard it is to use a threading library, or debate on the best way to use the 16MB aram chunk.
-
This has got to be the longest thread full of crap I've ever seen!!! :roll:
- Mike
-
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
@koaftder
I stopped comparing Amiga value to PC value around 1997. I own an Athlon XP 3200 with 1GB of 400MHz DDR ram and a 300GB HD, does that mean that any Amiga machine that doesn't hold up against those specs is worthless to me? If you can leave garbage like the first 2/3 of your message off this thread, maybe we wouldn't have scared away more people like Darklight for so long.
Now your saying you arent comparing the hardware to generally avaiable pc/mac hardware. Strange, because thats the opposite of half your posts in the past. Which one is it?
I know it's been a while...I was comparing it to the A1 on a performance/price basis. It's everybody else that shot it down for not being as good as a Mac or whatever other more useful platform that isn't getting a port either.
You can piss and moan about Linux on the GC not being useful, but Linux is only useful for whatever a user decides to compile for their installation. That's why Linux is useless to me and 99% of all PC users.
Most linux users out there arent compiling anything from their perspective. They just click on the app manager, select a program they want and click install.
good for them :roll:
If Hyperion released an OS4 "lite" to try out on the GC, alot of people would scoop it up. They could then release a Revolution "patch" to take advantage of the extra capabilities.
I don't expect AOS on GC/Rev/360/PS3/XBOX/DC to ever replace my PC, but it sure would be cool and fun to try out. That alone could help the platform grow
if done properly.
blah blah blah whatever. Now your saying that it would be cool and fun toy, earlier you were pimping it as the next potential amiga, a vehicle for keeping the platform alive.
Anyway, you'll get your chance to schlick your ideas to the AmigaOS developers on IRC next week. Maybe you can discuss how hard it is to use a threading library, or debate on the best way to use the 16MB aram chunk.
[/quote]
blah blah blah...
My idea came from every other Amiga user and their mother whining about not having an affordable PPC OS4 solution.
My first question would be how much longer before their contract with Hyperion and Amiga, Inc. expires so they can rebrand the OS and dump the curse that is backward compatibility and actually get the OS in users' hands.
-
by lou_dias
That's why it's going to be all about the Revolution controller. You'll be able to drag "icons" in 3d space...
Doesnt this sound a bit beyond the scope of AOS?
-
The OS - no. Workbench - yes. But now you can build a better gui.
-
lou_dias wrote:
The OS - no. Workbench - yes. But now you can build a better gui.
Ahhh yes the holy grail of PC design... lets build a better gui... so easy.
-
lou_dias wrote:
The OS - no. Workbench - yes. But now you can build a better gui.
Great, now i can litter up my desktop with a thousand icons in 3d....
-
Lou: I think I will just ponder how much effort was wasted trolling instead of petitioning or coding.
Good idea. Go ahead and start, and show us the results. Proof of Concept is the only thing that will get your idea in motion, not complaining about how narrow-minded the rest of us are.
Lou: Here's the bottomline. You, Waccoon and adolescent all own GC's. Yet you are the biggest "critics" (being nice) here.
You're surprised? GameCube was purpose-built for a limited set of tasks. I have three games for my GameCube, not a delusion that it may one day run an OS.
I don't expect AOS on GC/Rev/360/PS3/XBOX/DC to ever replace my PC, but it sure would be cool and fun to try out. That alone could help the platform grow if done properly.
The only way to grow is to evolve. AmigaOne isn't going to cut it. Neither will GameCube.
Coldfish: I for one would be quite dissapointed if they presented us with boring, more-of-the-same-2D-windows-like interfaces.
What do you have in mind?
Lou: That's why it's going to be all about the Revolution controller. You'll be able to drag "icons" in 3d space...
How would you resolve the problems with representing 3D motion on a 2D surface (the screen)? The "dentist" promotional video released by Nintendo, in particular, leaves me shaking my head.
This is all sounds very cool, but serious interface designers shy away from 3D interfaces altogether unless true 3D feedback is possible. Zooming interfaces work much better. Note that pencil and paper is still the most frequently used medium in the world.
For games, Nintendo will make it work, even if their software may end up focused too strongly on the "experience" rather than the "game." As far as a serious GUI tool is concerned, the remote has some serious limitations, especially for people with disabilities.
I know it's been a while...I was comparing it to the A1 on a performance/price basis. It's everybody else that shot it down for not being as good as a Mac or whatever other more useful platform that isn't getting a port either.
There's also the economics of the port, how it would sell, how many people would buy stuff for a game machine they would have to hack, whether people would be comfortable buying used hardware, if a GameCube is really as good as a used Mac, if people would tolerate the lack of display options (sorry, but my GC looks like crap running off S-Video compared to my PS2. Nintendo seriously cheaped out, here).
Bottom line: you get what you pay for.
Given how many people will easily plop down $150+ for a cell phone, I don't think they're going to argue about $50+ here or there. It's been over a decade since Commodore went under. If Amiga had gone PC, we'd already have at least tens of thousands of desktop users (and developers) out there, and could then port to game machines, cell phones, PPC-Anywhere, or whatever.
My idea came from every other Amiga user and their mother whining about not having an affordable PPC OS4 solution.
AmigaOne is not affordable because the establised business model doesn't allow it to be. The actual hardware has little to do with it. It's greed, plain and simple.
It was the strong emphasis on PPC technology that got us into the AmigaOne mess in the first place. So much for VP code.
My first question would be how much longer before their contract with Hyperion and Amiga, Inc. expires so they can rebrand the OS and dump the curse that is backward compatibility and actually get the OS in users' hands.
I think Hyperion is more interested in licensing parts of the OS to vendors than in selling the OS itself to end users. They did have to take breaks from working on OS4 to make some money.
Technologically, OS4 is still way behind the curve. If backwards compatibility isn't an issue, they should've just done what Apple did and make a new desktop on an existing, proven OS that works on multiple CPUs because, well, the OS would actually be designed properly.
I find it pretty stupid, really. Old Amiga apps are so old, even modest hardware will give a big boost in performance. Why they didn't just sandbox everything and make a fresh, modern system is beyond me. I'm sure that at this point, they really wish they had done that.
Bloodline: Ahhh yes the holy grail of PC design... lets build a better gui... so easy.
Well, it's the only thing the end-user really sees. Too bad a slick GUI doesn't show users how much stuff there is underneath and how much it costs to make it all work, and work well.
That's why I don't like all this embedded crap that's going on. It doesn't look like an Amiga because these kinds of devices basicly make the OS transparrent in the first place, and the GUI is effectively crippled by default. I don't want another seriously late Palm clone. I want a brand new desktop system that reminds me of an Amiga, and doesn't suck. I don't know why people keep making yet more Windows clones out of Linux/GNU systems. The only times we get something really different, it gets killed by poor hardware choices. Isn't there anyone in the software industry with marketting sense besides Microsoft? Didn't anyone learn anything from Be?
-
Well, having a controller interface that inherently detects 3D spacial movement does lend itself to allowing for 3d manipulation of the location of objects on a screen. Workbench is just a 2D filemanger. If Hyperion does implement a 3D api, then creating a 3D filemanager isn't a big leap. The problem up until now is that the primary interface (mouse) only detects 2D movement.
Dos/cli: 1D - a simple list of files
Workbench/Windows: 2D - we have icons now and can move them around
future: 3D - we still have icons but not we can move them behind each other then you can move the camera/view angle
Once holography becomes commercial technology, interfaces like in the movie Minority Report will be totally possible. A 3d Workbench could be the same thing but without the holography, a virtual pointer placed on the screen then becomes necessary - but that's what today's mouse pointer is now.
-
Well, having a controller interface that inherently detects 3D spacial movement does lend itself to allowing for 3d manipulation of the location of objects on a screen.
Yeah, but it can be very difficult for people to use that kind of interface without real depth perception. More than three zones (2D planes) of depth, and it turns into a real mess. This is hardly the "natural" control that Nintendo is promoting.
Note that many people have trouble managing several open windows at a time in 2D space. Blaming the 2D environment is easy and popular, but incorrect. It would be wise to reduce or combine the number of objects before talking about stacking objects in 3D space. How about being able to "attach" one window to another, or even splice two apps together by joining "seams"? We really can't go on having a dozen different windows for everything.
Most people don't multitask as well as the OSes they are trying to use. :-)
The zooming interface paradigm is used very well with Expose in MacOS X. I really, really wish I could make my Win2000 system do that. Of course, that's about the only thing I like about OSX. In terms of usability, even OSX has tons of problems. It's different, but certainly not better.
future: 3D - we still have icons but not we can move them behind each other then you can move the camera/view angle
A popular concept, but the camera just adds one more control element. Workspaces work much better.
Refer to Microsoft Bob, and how it tried to simplify usage by assigning each app a "room" and allowed you to navigate through a "house" to find your stuff. Naturally, it was a disaster, though a lot of people don't seem to understand why.
I'd like very much to save a workspace with all the apps (or licenses for them) onto a memory card. I could then take that card with me and plug it into any comatible OS. I could then have my environments, complete with backdrop images and other eye candy, on ANY system, anywhere.
I could have a gaming workspace, a coding workspace, a media center workspace, and not have to worry about faking all this with multiple user accounts which all have to configured seperately. I could set up each workspace for different input devices, too, so a split keyboard could be configured for gaming for one workspace. By switching to another workspace, my keyboard could have dedicated buttons for undo/redo/history, which would otherwise go berserk when trying to play a game (remember all the problems we had when accidently pushing the Windows key while playing games? It often crashed the computer completely!)
Oh yeah, to do all this, I'd also take a Wacom tablet over a Revolution controller any day. I can't live without my Intuos. Imagine being able to just write directly on your desk with a radio-controlled "pen", instead of tiring your arms by waving a controller in the air.
I don't have enough faith in speech recognition, yet. Talking to computers isn't very private, never mind silly.
"FORMAT SPACE C COLON ENTER! YES!"
Once holography becomes commercial technology, interfaces like in the movie Minority Report will be totally possible. A 3d Workbench could be the same thing but without the holography, a virtual pointer placed on the screen then becomes necessary - but that's what today's mouse pointer is now.
I don't think Workbench will still be around when holographic technology becomes affordable. ;-)
I'm not sure if a pointer is strictly required if you get rid of the ancient "point, select, open" paradigm used by computer mice for years. Highlighting is enough. Think about how people search for things, especially with realtime searching, as is supported in Firefox.
Really, even basic computer concepts like "saving your work" should be obsoleted. Journaled filesystems have been hacked into modern OSes so apps don't have to be rewritten to support histories. Doing this properly would require a completely new desktop environment, and OS4 isn't even close to doing this properly, seeing how Hyperion has chosen not to support user accounts, which is mandatory for this kind of work.
Yeah, yeah... maybe OS5 will do it. Or maybe it'll still be and embedded class OS that will just be licensed to other companies in bite-sized pieces. I really don't see OS4 moving is the right direction for doing anything new, let alone cool.
-
Why they didn't just sandbox everything and make a fresh, modern system is beyond me.
Erm.. Morph OS did that IIRC ?
-
@koaftder
if you have 1000 icons on your screen, you're just unorganized, don't blame to OS
@Waccoon
Most people don't multitask as well as the OSes they are trying to use.
Which is why I said it's a "nice feature" and why I said you can get away with 24MB...several pages ago...
As for the rest, some nice ideas but my scope here has always been cheap hardware + OS 4 for the masses. Who knew this thread would get so philisophical? I can't see them going beyond OS4...
As for your comments about a PS2 looking better than a GC - hahahaha... Maybe you should compare apples to apples. Get the same game on each system and play them both. The GC verion is either an exact port (graphically) or better. I've played Madden on both systems, PS2 looks like cartoon drawings of real people. Not much shading and not too detailed textures. The GC version looks about 3/4 of the way from the PS2 version to the XBOX version, but I guees with the 3 games you own, you'd never know how great the GC really can be.
What are those 3 games you own anyway? I've owned about 80 GC games, maybe I can recommend you some based on your tastes.
-
Lou: As for the rest, some nice ideas but my scope here has always been cheap hardware + OS 4 for the masses.
How can a platform grow if it can't improve? To improve, the platform has to be flexible to appeal to a wide audience. Suggesting GameCube is just another example of desperation to get any hardware at all, because the people in charge of the Amiga don't have a clue what they are doing.
Making software for a proprietary platform is difficult and expensive, and PPC doesn't have very good legacy support as it is. Nintendo wouldn't let Hyperion use the APIs to make an OS, and even if Hyperion could do it, they would just have to write tons of wrappers to get standard tools to work with Nintendo's tools. It would be a mess, take more memory than it should, and make it difficult for the OS to provide the services that are expected of an OS. If your expectation are limited to OS 3.x, you're still living in the 90's.
When writing an OS, you need to think of a lot more things than a CPU and memory. Any turing-complete machine can run an OS. The question is how well, how much can be done in hardware vs software, and the cost of development.
I wish your friend luck with getting AROS running on GameCube. But, AROS is still very raw and brittle as it is.
Lou: Who knew this thread would get so philisophical?
You rave about the Revolution controller and 3D interfaces. I rave about workspaces and tablets. We're both looking to improve the platform through new ideas. Will GameCube deliver, or should we just ditch the idea altogether now that Revolution is around the corner? Does that mean we can widen the scope to beyond non-Nintendo hardware, too?
If you don't see anything going beyond OS4 and want to run OS3 class software, why even bring up the Revolution controller at all? Amigas have mice and keyboards. Do you want to move forward or just desperately keep the Amiga alive by life support?
Eh, we both know it's not going to happen, even if we disagree on the reasons.
Lou: As for your comments about a PS2 looking better than a GC - hahahaha... Maybe you should compare apples to apples. Get the same game on each system and play them both. The GC verion is either an exact port (graphically) or better. I've played Madden on both systems, PS2 looks like cartoon drawings of real people. Not much shading and not too detailed textures. The GC version looks about 3/4 of the way from the PS2 version to the XBOX version, but I guees with the 3 games you own, you'd never know how great the GC really can be.
Lou, I'm talking about video out, not textures and GPU features. S-Video on my GC looks worse than AV on my PS2. Maybe the Rev A GameCube looks better, but the Rev C has a very poor video out. It's fuzzy and the reds bleed like crazy. I wouldn't be surprised if the S-Video is actually an AV split, rather than a true chroma signal. I'll see if I can confirm that.
I don't see the point in talking about great GPU features if the video signal is cheap. I'm concerned that if Nintendo really is aiming for a $150 or less price point on the Revolution, it may suffer from this same issue. We'll see.
What are those 3 games you own anyway?
Go Go Hypergrind, StarFox Adventures, and Rally Championship. I waited so long to get the machine because I wasn't going to spend more than $100 to play the first two games. GGH is a lot of fun, and I'm surprised the game hasn't been selling better. StarFox (which I got used) has been very disappointing, especially because you can't control the camera in that game, as the C stick is used to cycle inventory. It's just annoying.
Well, OK, I also got Pokemon Colloseum bundled with the GC, but I haven't played it, yet.
-
Well, Revolution is the evolved hardware upgrade.
Don't know what Go Go Hypergrind is..., does it have a different name in the US? Where are you from. Star Fox Adventures was the first game I beat on the GC. Star Fox Assault doesn't look as good graphically but is 10x more action oriented. I just picked up R:Racing Evolution and Burnout 2. R:Racing seems like it was made for regular TV, in progressive scan, everything is pixelated. Burnout 2 hase excellent shading and textures but also looks better on the Trinitron because on a 50" I see pixels...
As for the quality of the output, I hooked up my Rev C modded cube to the family Sony 32" Trinitron via the composite cables and that picture looks better than my 480p on my 50" Samsung DLP. So maybe you have a cable quality issue or a television issue.
-
It COULD be a cable problem. I have two composite cables for my PS2. One of them gives a clean signal, but the other gives a rather strangely artifacted display.
-
It's all about the shielding. I tried using RCA cables for my DVD player in the composite output connectors instead of real composite cables and I didn't have the full color range on my TV. It was just a signal quality issue. That's the shielding and it's the only difference between RCA and composite cables.
Update: Sales #'s
http://palgn.com.au/article.php?id=3605&sid=4cea9e5e814470cb7ea6fd462d04a13e
Need October #'s but here's November:
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5899
When Legend of Zelda:Twilight Princess is released, I believe the GC will pull away from the original XBOX in global sales.
-
First - Happy Holidays!
Second: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2005/12/22/play-twlight-princess-with-revolution-controller/
Revolution will launch in Europe in Nov '06.
Legend of Zelda on Nov 2, 2006
it will be "Revolution-aware" per my prediction in March '05...in this thread...
"Oh the lack of a clear upgrade path..." :roll:
This puts the Revolution launch in Japan or US at around August.
Legend Of Zelda is still on track for a spring '06 release.
-
lou_dias wrote:
First - Happy Holidays!
Second: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2005/12/22/play-twlight-princess-with-revolution-controller/
Revolution will launch in Europe in Nov '06.
Legend of Zelda on Nov 2, 2006
it will be "Revolution-aware" per my prediction in March '05...in this thread...
"Oh the lack of a clear upgrade path..." :roll:
This puts the Revolution launch in Japan or US at around August.
Legend Of Zelda is still on track for a spring '06 release.
Wow, thats just great. No really. Does nintendo pay you to spam amiga.org with markiting bs for their new console?
I have a new idea for you, why not shoehorn amiga os 4 into the new controller it's self. Then you can walk into bars with a head mounted display, a nintendo and wave your arms around while telling girls your running aos4 on your controller. Just think of all the women you will attract.
-
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
First - Happy Holidays!
Second: http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2005/12/22/play-twlight-princess-with-revolution-controller/
Revolution will launch in Europe in Nov '06.
Legend of Zelda on Nov 2, 2006
it will be "Revolution-aware" per my prediction in March '05...in this thread...
"Oh the lack of a clear upgrade path..." :roll:
This puts the Revolution launch in Japan or US at around August.
Legend Of Zelda is still on track for a spring '06 release.
Wow, thats just great. No really. Does nintendo pay you to spam amiga.org with markiting bs for their new console?
I have a new idea for you, why not shoehorn amiga os 4 into the new controller it's self. Then you can walk into bars with a head mounted display, a nintendo and wave your arms around while telling girls your running aos4 on your controller. Just think of all the women you will attract.
What's your issue?
I put forth an idea almost a year ago about getting a modern Amiga OS into alot of people's hands via the gamecube CHEAPLY. People knocked down the idea for various reasons. Mostly pure ignorance. Short of not having harddrive functionality (which has been hacked into the DVD drive interface...), I've shown it to be quite possible.
Why does that bother you?
Why should it bother you?
I've defended my idea. I'm sticking with it.
As I said about 10 months ago: work started now could carry over to Revolution. Pessimism prevented that. It's users rallying behind a platform creating a perceived demand that induces manufacturers to produce a product that they feel has a viable market. Why do you think the A1 is even here to begin with? The beauty of the GC is that you can work for a day's pay then go out and buy one. The GC has 20M in global sales. If Amiga and Hyperion had persued a Nintendo license, the Amiga platform would have gotten free publicity through the normal console channels and sales generated from people who are merely curious alone could have added up to 50,000 users. That's something that will never happen with an Amy'05, A1, Pegasos, PowerVixxen, or "let's announce another piece of hardware called 'xyz' that will never actually materialize".
Everything I "predicted" has been proven to be true.
Is that what bothers you?
I had a good idea and everybody found it easy to bash it but now my idea, in retrospect, doesn't look too bad.
If you don't like the thread - don't post in it. It's posts like yours that have quadrupled the page count. You don't like the thread - don't read it and don't post in it. If you haven't realised it yet, I'm not easily discouraged.
Merry Christmas.
-
lou_dias wrote:
What's your issue?
He spelled that out. You're so off topic in your own off topic thread that you've turned it into a nonstop Nintendo advertisment. Of course, that's probably because that's the only good news you have.
I put forth an idea almost a year ago about getting a modern Amiga OS into alot of people's hands via the gamecube CHEAPLY. People knocked down the idea for various reasons. Mostly pure ignorance.
Ignorance? No, mostly fact. Just because you refuse to deal with reality doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree your Nintendo fanboy rambling.
Short of not having harddrive functionality (which has been hacked into the DVD drive interface...), I've shown it to be quite possible.
CZN does some crazy {bleep}. Remember, it has USB too. Still not available for the common user.
I've defended my idea. I'm sticking with it.
As I said about 10 months ago: work started now could carry over to Revolution. Pessimism prevented that.
No, you prevented that. You're just one of those that talks the talk. Or, you really know deep down that it's a stupid idea.
Everything I "predicted" has been proven to be true.
Is that what bothers you?
Just what did you predict? That nothing would happen? That some hardware barriers are impossible to overcome? Wait, that wasn't you that was every other poster here.
I had a good idea and everybody found it easy to bash it but now my idea, in retrospect, doesn't look too bad.
Nope. It still looks bad. Of course GC-Linux has gotten better over the past year. It still doesn't make up for poor hardware.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
What's your issue?
He spelled that out. You're so off topic in your own off topic thread that you've turned it into a nonstop Nintendo advertisment. Of course, that's probably because that's the only good news you have.
No - people wanted an upgrade path to better hardware. Revolution is that hardware - as I said 9 months ago.
I put forth an idea almost a year ago about getting a modern Amiga OS into alot of people's hands via the gamecube CHEAPLY. People knocked down the idea for various reasons. Mostly pure ignorance.
Ignorance? No, mostly fact. Just because you refuse to deal with reality doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree your Nintendo fanboy rambling.
You make a list of what your arguments are - just the arguments, not your trollish remarks - and I'll review them and debate them.
CZN does some crazy {bleep}. Remember, it has USB too. Still not available for the common user.
http://www.gcloader.com
usb functionality coming soon...
I've defended my idea. I'm sticking with it.
As I said about 10 months ago: work started now could carry over to Revolution. Pessimism prevented that.
No, you prevented that. You're just one of those that talks the talk. Or, you really know deep down that it's a stupid idea.
right - I prevented it, not the trollish unfounded remarks like "lack of binary compatibility" and "it's not a real PPC chip" b.s. you've spouted...
Everything I "predicted" has been proven to be true.
Is that what bothers you?
Just what did you predict? That nothing would happen? That some hardware barriers are impossible to overcome? Wait, that wasn't you that was every other poster here.
see page 5 of this thread a post by me dated 3/30 where I predicted a major platform release would take advantage of Revolution hardware - can you say Legend Of Zelda:Twilight Princess? And that was to prove the compatibility of the api between programming the GC and checking if Revolution hardware was present and taking advantage of it. Point proven.
I had a good idea and everybody found it easy to bash it but now my idea, in retrospect, doesn't look too bad.
Nope. It still looks bad. Of course GC-Linux has gotten better over the past year. It still doesn't make up for poor hardware.
Whatever. Like I said a GC port is a stepping stone to an even better Revolution port. Revolution hardware will run a circle around an A1 with a G4. The mouse and be done with the Rev. controller. It has USB 2.0 ports, SD memeory card ports and full DVD9 support as well as about triple the memory of the GC. But you'll comeback and say something trollish like "that's not good enough" and that's all you can do is spout negativity. Oh and don't expect Revolution to be any more than $199. Probably less. Hence that still qualifies it as a "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP".
You can't even say that the CPU isn't going to be a good desktop cpu. It has been proven that the GC's cpu is just a G3 FX with a faster bus 2 32 bit integer units instead on 1 64 bit, and 37 SIMD instructions added. Rev's cpu is going to be similar but faster and with more cache.
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
What's your issue?
He spelled that out. You're so off topic in your own off topic thread that you've turned it into a nonstop Nintendo advertisment. Of course, that's probably because that's the only good news you have.
No - people wanted an upgrade path to better hardware. Revolution is that hardware - as I said 9 months ago.
And how does and announcement about Zelda release date relate then?
right - I prevented it, not the trollish unfounded remarks like "lack of binary compatibility" and "it's not a real PPC chip" b.s. you've spouted...
I never said either of those things. If you're going to accuse me of something, at least get the quotes correct. After all, it was you that said the Internet ran on 10Mbps.
Everything I "predicted" has been proven to be true.
Is that what bothers you?
Just what did you predict? That nothing would happen? That some hardware barriers are impossible to overcome? Wait, that wasn't you that was every other poster here.
see page 5 of this thread a post by me dated 3/30 where I predicted a major platform release would take advantage of Revolution hardware - can you say Legend Of Zelda:Twilight Princess? And that was to prove the compatibility of the api between programming the GC and checking if Revolution hardware was present and taking advantage of it. Point proven.
Again, I don't see how Zelda has anything to do with putting AOS4 on a game system.
Whatever. Like I said a GC port is a stepping stone to an even better Revolution port. Revolution hardware will run a circle around an A1 with a G4. The mouse and be done with the Rev. controller. It has USB 2.0 ports, SD memeory card ports and full DVD9 support as well as about triple the memory of the GC. But you'll comeback and say something trollish like "that's not good enough" and that's all you can do is spout negativity. Oh and don't expect Revolution to be any more than $199. Probably less. Hence that still qualifies it as a "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP".
Actually, it has none of these things because it doesn't exist. I could say the same about the new dual processor, dual core, G5 based AmigaTwo which will retail for under $199. But, then that would be speculation right?
You can't even say that the CPU isn't going to be a good desktop cpu. It has been proven that the GC's cpu is just a G3 FX with a faster bus 2 32 bit integer units instead on 1 64 bit, and 37 SIMD instructions added. Rev's cpu is going to be similar but faster and with more cache.
Of course, I can't say that the chip is a good desktop CPU. Not until it exists.
-
adolescent wrote:
And how does and announcement about Zelda release date relate then?
If there was no definite release date, then in your trollish eyes "it doesn't exist" - suprise! It exists.
right - I prevented it, not the trollish unfounded remarks like "lack of binary compatibility" and "it's not a real PPC chip" b.s. you've spouted...
I never said either of those things. If you're going to accuse me of something, at least get the quotes correct. After all, it was you that said the Internet ran on 10Mbps.
As far as I'm concerned, since my cable company's internet connection tops out a 6Mbps, that's all that's useable to me and even then no one gets anywhere near those speeds from a single connection. The internet could run at 100000000000000000000000000Mbps, but if I can only access it at 650KB/s what good is that to me?
Just what did you predict? That nothing would happen? That some hardware barriers are impossible to overcome? Wait, that wasn't you that was every other poster here.
see page 5 of this thread a post by me dated 3/30 where I predicted a major platform release would take advantage of Revolution hardware - can you say Legend Of Zelda:Twilight Princess? And that was to prove the compatibility of the api between programming the GC and checking if Revolution hardware was present and taking advantage of it. Point proven.
Again, I don't see how Zelda has anything to do with putting AOS4 on a game system.
yes - typical trollish comeback of ignoring why the statement was made to begin with even though the answer is staring the troll in the face as he writes his comeback...
Whatever. Like I said a GC port is a stepping stone to an even better Revolution port. Revolution hardware will run a circle around an A1 with a G4. The mouse and be done with the Rev. controller. It has USB 2.0 ports, SD memeory card ports and full DVD9 support as well as about triple the memory of the GC. But you'll comeback and say something trollish like "that's not good enough" and that's all you can do is spout negativity. Oh and don't expect Revolution to be any more than $199. Probably less. Hence that still qualifies it as a "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP".
Actually, it has none of these things because it doesn't exist. I could say the same about the new dual processor, dual core, G5 based AmigaTwo which will retail for under $199. But, then that would be speculation right?
You know what - you don't exist. I've never seen you. So you can't possibly exist. Just like when a tree falls in the forest, it doesn't make a sound because no one was there to hear it.
I've never seen a troll either...but I sure do read alot of what they write...
You can't even say that the CPU isn't going to be a good desktop cpu. It has been proven that the GC's cpu is just a G3 FX with a faster bus 2 32 bit integer units instead on 1 64 bit, and 37 SIMD instructions added. Rev's cpu is going to be similar but faster and with more cache.
Of course, I can't say that the chip is a good desktop CPU. Not until it exists.
Now if only this thread wouldn't exist. Then how would you continue existing as a troll that doesn't exist?
-
lou_dias wrote:
Now if only this thread wouldn't exist. Then how would you continue existing as a troll that doesn't exist?
We can all wish. :lol:
-
What's your issue?
I put forth an idea almost a year ago about getting a modern Amiga OS into alot of people's hands via the gamecube CHEAPLY. People knocked down the idea for various reasons. Mostly pure ignorance. Short of not having harddrive functionality (which has been hacked into the DVD drive interface...), I've shown it to be quite possible.
And many people responded that they wouldnt bother with it no matter how cheap it is. As an idea its so rotten one of the first posts in this thread accused you of sniffing glue.
Why does that bother you?
Why should it bother you?
It doesnt bother me, i dont really care
I've defended my idea. I'm sticking with it.
As I said about 10 months ago: work started now could carry over to Revolution. Pessimism prevented that. It's users rallying behind a platform creating a perceived demand that induces manufacturers to produce a product that they feel has a viable market.
Thats why your idea sucks. People think its retarded and thats why its not going to happen
Why do you think the A1 is even here to begin with? The beauty of the GC is that you can work for a day's pay then go out and buy one.
And then i work another day or two to buy all the extra crap to make it useable.
The GC has 20M in global sales. If Amiga and Hyperion had persued a Nintendo license, the Amiga platform would have gotten free publicity through the normal console channels and sales generated from people who are merely curious alone could have added up to 50,000 users. That's something that will never happen with an Amy'05, A1, Pegasos, PowerVixxen, or "let's announce another piece of hardware called 'xyz' that will never actually materialize".
Yea, an os on a game console, that would attract a lot of users, it sure worked well for windows CE on the dreamcast. You couldnt give away aos4 for gamecube, nobody would use it. People dont want a brain dammaged computer interfaced to their tv.
Everything I "predicted" has been proven to be true.
Is that what bothers you?
Predicted what? That the new controller was gonna be wierd? That the new proc was going to be a little faster? That the new nintendo would play some games from the old one?
Whooptie freaking do. You are a robot who parrots bs from nintendo fanboy websites onto amiga.org. I'm suppried there isnt a news post about you on http://pulp.wrongpla.net/news/
I had a good idea and everybody found it easy to bash it but now my idea, in retrospect, doesn't look too bad.
It's not that people are mean and like to trash good ideas. The reality of it is that your idea sucks. It doesnt help that in the beginning you were pimping the idea around like it's the next evolution in the amiga line of computers.
If you don't like the thread - don't post in it. It's posts like yours that have quadrupled the page count. You don't like the thread - don't read it and don't post in it. If you haven't realised it yet, I'm not easily discouraged.
Merry Christmas.
This thread is great, so i'll continue to post. How else would i get insite into the exciting world of un released nintendo consoles? I bet you squirt a few wads in your pants every time you see this thread at the top of the heap.
And a merry christmas to you too!
-
koaftder wrote:
This thread is great, so i'll continue to post. How else would i get insite into the exciting world of un released nintendo consoles? I bet you squirt a few wads in your pants every time you see this thread at the top of the heap.
With comments like that, I now realize I'm not even talking to an adult. Maybe it's you that feels that way because you then come here and post to make sure it stays at the top.
You and the same 2 or 3 people think it's a bad idea. Through out this thread, more users than that have posted that they would like to see it happen. But they don't continue to post because they don't want to get involved in the childish trolling that's going on here.
-
I can't believe this thread is still alive? Maybe you boys should take it outside or give it please a merciful burial....GC....RIP
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
This thread is great, so i'll continue to post. How else would i get insite into the exciting world of un released nintendo consoles? I bet you squirt a few wads in your pants every time you see this thread at the top of the heap.
With comments like that, I now realize I'm not even talking to an adult. Maybe it's you that feels that way because you then come here and post to make sure it stays at the top.
You and the same 2 or 3 people think it's a bad idea. Through out this thread, more users than that have posted that they would like to see it happen. But they don't continue to post because they don't want to get involved in the childish trolling that's going on here.
Yea, call me a child and then a troll, ignore all the other stuff you cant own up to or explain your position on. Typical LouDias post. Youve got a lot of nerve calling somebody else a troll.
You are always the last person to post in this thread, then the thread dies. You resurrect it days later with another post. The bump post you spew out is of course designed to get somebody else to post a wtf message, and then you call them a troll, hence my comment about you blowing a wad in your pants every time this thread ends up at the top of the list.
Trolling on message boards is a sign that there is something wrong with ones personal life. People troll because they are starving for attention, and you are a person who is very much in need of some attention. If i were you i would take some time for reflection this new years and see what could be done to make your life a happier existance. Perhaps if you put down the controller for a little while and persued some other activities.
in the beginning i dont think you were trolling, after a few months of this thread it was obvious that you were being a troll.
Your posts started off "Hey, check out this idea, GC is the future of amiga" People started stating that this idea wasnt very good.
Your next series of posts you basically nitpicked with people about basic programming concepts and hardware issues. Many posts from several people informed you that "No, the hardware works this way", or "This isnt an issue when it comes to software development", "stuff doesnt work like that, it works like this", and all the while you proceed to argue about it with people who know far more about the subject than you do.
The rest of your posts can be summed up as the following: "Advertisements for nintendo products", "Calling people trolls", "Reposting specs about unreleased hardware from nintendo websites", "Filler posts and reposts to keep the thread bumped up on the list every few days".
Cmon, you know what your doing here, just own up to it.
-
Argus wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still alive? Maybe you boys should take it outside or give it please a merciful burial....GC....RIP
What?! I love this thread! It reminds me of some of the great pie-in-the-sky threads from USENET amiga newsgroups from back in the day!
I say: keep on chugging you crazy thread!
-
Yea, call me a child and then a troll, ignore all the other stuff you cant own up to or explain your position on. Typical LouDias post. Youve got a lot of nerve calling somebody else a troll.
You are always the last person to post in this thread, then the thread dies. You resurrect it days later with another post. The bump post you spew out is of course designed to get somebody else to post a wtf message, and then you call them a troll, hence my comment about you blowing a wad in your pants every time this thread ends up at the top of the list.
.
i hate to say it LouDias but i think koaftder is quite right about this
Dont get me wrong i understand your interest in nintendo, I too like nintedo but its not designed for anny Os. The nintendo is a toy for playing games. What more can you actualy say in this thread that is gonna inspire a OS4 port nothing (i dont think it could sucseed annyway nomather what) You have been going on and on and on about why the GC is suited for os4 people here have told you about the reality but you only deny it and start all over again and tell them that it will work :lol: Then you change you subject to the Revolution and say they have specs etc. Trust me when i say this !!IT WILL NEVER BE DONE!!
You are always denying importent hardware facts and ignoring them then you start to get on people`s nerves (you got your will) a perfect pray for a hungry troll like you seem to be. The way i find it after reading trugh this entire thread is that you are the one acting like a child stubburn as F**K not willing to addmit defeat over your silly nintendo idea.
Adonay :-D
-
How can I be accused of going OT with Revolution when from the start I said it IS THE UPGRADE PATH.
Showing how a Gamecube game can take advantage of Revolution hardware because the systems are compatible like that - is relevant. Instead I am called a troll in my own thread for staying on the topic I started. That ALMOST MAKES SENSE - NOT!
I said from the begining that work done porting to the GC would carry over to Revolution.
Nintendo has announced that Revolutions will have SD memory ports and USB 2.0 port - so it must not be true then because I am a troll.
GCC PPC compilers with additions for the 37 SIMD instructions are used to compile homebrew GC code, so much for "lack of binary compatibility" and "not being a real PPC chip" - but I'm a troll.
Developers have leaked that Revolution will have atleast 96MB of memory (still more than enough to run OS4) - but I'm a troll.
Nintendo has said that Revolution will play standard and dual-layer DVD's (so much for "non-standard media compatibility"), the GC's POT can also be adjusted to read DVD-R/RW's - but I'm a troll.
You almost have me convinced - not. But I'm sure you'll keep trying.
-
Instead I am called a troll in my own thread for staying on the topic I started. That ALMOST MAKES SENSE - NOT!
You have done anything but stay on topic for almost the entire duration of this thread. You didnt bring this thread into existance with the intent to share your idea and have reasonable dialog about the technical issues of bringing your concept into something tangible. Instead youve created a soapbox with which you use to cram the idea down everybodys throat, and you have chosen to ignore the technical advise that many experienced hardware and software developers have offered.
This site is a great resource where one can have meaningful discussion with seasoned software and hardware developers. Why on earth did you decide to troll instead of leveraging this to increase your skill set?
I said from the begining that work done porting to the GC would carry over to Revolution
No you didnt. You mentioned that for the first time on 2005/3/29. You began the thread on 2005/1/31. That was the 88th message in the thread.
lou_dias lists a pile of specs for revolution
So what? No matter what angle you look at this, you still have a sub standard machine when it comes to a general purpose computing platform. It seems cheap when looking at it on the surface, but in reality it's not a good deal when applied as a general purpose machine. For 150 dollars, you can get a PC with way better specs. It will come with a harddrive, and lots more memory, and be cabable of driving a high resolution monitor. You will get a machine thats really good at general purpose stuff. Obviously the gaming experience will suck, thats the trade off.
Not only have you been proposing a cruddy machine, your proposing to put an obselete operating system on that substandard machine. AOS4 brings nothing to the table. I wont go into the reasons why AOS4 is behind the times, the topic has been beat to death worse than this one.
Something like 50% of the american population has a computer in their house. Pretty much everybody who wants a machine has already gone out and bought one. There are so many second hand machines floating around and easy to get ones hands on that even the poorest of people here often have a machine. We are at a point where price of hardware is so low, everybody can have one if they so choose.
Lets condense your idea:
AOS4 on gamecube is a substandard machine with a substandard OS which would be introduced to a saturated market full of heavily branded customers.
This is a terrible business proposal, which virtually guarantees failure. Thats why this is never going to happen.
Amiga is worth nothing more than a logo, fond memories and possibly a joystick product. AOS4 may find some nich market to exploit though, and i hope it is successful. Maybe it's developer base could grow and eventually elevate its position from obslesence. It certainly wont find a market in the sphere of gamecube.
Dennis didnt come to a.org and spam about how great spartan fpgas were the bomb and the future of retro amiga products. He didnt Cram anything down anybodys throat, he didnt make stupid comments about stuff he was unfamiliar with. He just hunkered down, did his research and set out to develop his idea into something real.
You should hit the books, learn c/c++/assembler and help jlf65 port aros to GC if thats your goal. You dont need us to validate your project. Just do it, and you'll get positive feedback and a virtual pat on the back. It's the only way to elevate your self from the position of troll.
The fact that a thread such as this, with over 12,000 views and 500 comments can persist for an entire year, filled with tripe and not disrupt the continuity of the rest of the site or the users is a tribute to how easy going and well manered the user base here is.
/me steps off his soapbox and patiently waits for the next lou_dias double post.
-
Here's where your point mixes with mine:
The A1 was a failure. Why? Because it offered so little for so much money. Yeah the GC offer less, but it costs peanuts. No {bleep} everybody's moved on - do you think I'm posting here on an Amiga - no, I am here with a PC.
I've stated in other "gaming" threads that the Wintel PC is the best gaming platform...and for unique, fun, pick up and play games, I have my GC. So what!
The Amiga platform is dead in the water. Without an inexpensive piece of hardware that anyone can walk down the street and buy as a foundation for increasing the userbase/reviving the platform, the only place the Amiga platform can go is down to NOTHING.
OS4's only chance is to become available on easily available hardware platforms.
Read through this thread. I've stated that Hyperion should release a licensed product with some retro games available as a sort of "Amiga Lives" retro pack. I'm all about helping the platform gain popularity. I don't care if some people feel it's technically impossible because the only ones who can honestly answer that question is Hans, Ben and company. For that matter, everything on the "official OS4 website" leads one to believe that a less-capable platform than the GC is a possible market for OS4.
All the "experts" that have said it can't be done are none of the people actually responsible for doing it.
I already know C and C++. Guess what - C/C++ sucks ass. With compiler technology as advanced as it is - C should die. People {bleep} on VB6 but VB6 gets converted to C then compiled on Windows. I've also professionally used VFP(Visual Fox Pro). VFP is great for data manipulation from various sources. It's interpreted. Now I use VB.net. Guess what - that's interpretted too. Everybody used to {bleep} on VFP for being interpretted. Now cpu's are so powerful that the added benifits of an interpretted language outweigh a compiled language for business apps. Who gives a {bleep}.
Here's the bottom line: I don't give a rat's arse what you non-OS4 developers think is the reason why OS4 shouldn't be on the GC. All I know is that if it was on the GC, more people would have the oportunity to experience/relive the Amiga platform than are doing so now.
I'm about getting the platform into people's living rooms and not about discussing why feature xyz is not possible on platform abc for market kmnlop. OS4 needs to be accessible to everyone, not just Amiga-fanboys who dished out $1000 for an overpriced and out dated A1. That's the only way this platform will gain any ground.
I've already done my part in helping JLF65 in porting AROS to the GC by supplying him with an SD Gecko at basically cost. He's received it and has already installed a qoob Pro chip in his GC and will start work on that this week. I've offered an SD Gecko in this thread to any Amiga developer intested in the GC platform at about cost. My offer still stands. I'm not an OS coder. I'm a business-app coder. But I know enough to know when someone is pulling my leg. "Binary compatibility" comes to mind.
AROS will fit in the qoob chip's flashram and boot in a couple of seconds. I have CubeDOOM (6.25 MB shareware level) running in 8 seconds from an SD card on the GC. I have done it myself, so this is not a repost from some "speculation" website. Revolution will be "soft-mod" exploited through it's GC compatibility. This means that PPC-AROS will be running on a platform better than the Pegasus and A1 in a short time after Revolution is released. You can piss and moan about "memory requirements" all you want but I haven't seen a non-gaming app that needs more than 24MB. Multi-tasking is a feature, not a requirement. Even then, 96MB is still plenty.
Go ahead - reply with another pessimistic view. It's pessimism that leads to stagnation. Optimism leads to innovation.
Now I could be just content with Linux on GC. But I'm not. Linux sucks. There's Gentoo, Debian, SUSE, Red Hat, Mandrake, ... each requiring their own tweaks to make certains things compatible with others. That sucks.
When I upgraded my CD32 with an SX-1 and a 2.5" HD with OS 3.1, I could run all A1200 and 99% of all A500 software. That's the beauty of standardizing on an OS platform. Linux is not standardized. Linux will never be a mainstream OS like Amiga could have been/was. It's just a matter of time before the Mac dies a slow death now that Apple has gone Intel. Apple will be reduced to an iPod manufacturer. Mac OS is a pig nowadays. When 256MB is not enough to power a Mac-Mini at a descent speed, Apple has made a faux-pas.
Within the next month, I'll be writing PocketPC software at work. It's interpretted. Windows has already won. I don't care. I want to see Amiga in places I would never expect. Otherwise, it's useless.
-
I'd like to chime in with this tidbit...
If you're going to base a "new Amiga" around a GameCube, why not be even smarter and base it around an XBox? I mean, seriously, a GC is a kid's toy. An XBox is actually expandable (everyone I know here already has a 100GB HD, hardmods, new Xconsole, etc), it's actually faster, actually supports most PC perepherials, is actually already running 50 times the stuff the GC is -- including WinUAE (gosh you mean an Amiga already runs very well on the XBox?), Linux, etc. -- and is not some stupid little cube that looks like a girl's makeup container.
Them's my two cents.
CG Amiga, that's one the most amusing thing's I've heard since people were saying that paying $1650.00 for non-backwards compatible machine worth $650.00 was the next best thing for an Amiga...
-
Amiga on Intel has already been discussed by many. Especially Eyetech. I already have WinUAE. I don't use it because I alredy run Windows and have every app I need there. What I want to do is take my Amiga-GC "disc" to any GC owner's house with a BBA and also insert my SD card into any GC and check my email and do what I got to do. That's not possible on Windows unless I buy a Pocket PC device. Amiga OS needs to be what Palm OS didn't live up to.
Also, a full GC setup can be had for about $180. Also, since so many people own GC's, all you'd have to do is carry your boot disc and SD Gecko w/SD card to anyone's house (and possibly a broad band adapter) and you've got yourself quite a reliable portable system.
SD memory cards are the new floppy/CDR's. Just imagine Windows "Terminal" PC's that launched your personal system settings off of an SD card you inserted into the machine. That's how standardized Windows is getting. Amiga needs to get there first. Instead of a "user login", a user inserts there SD card and all their settings come up and with 2GB of storage, all there relevant data-files are there as well.
-
SD? Bah, SmartMedia is the only worthy successor of the floppy disc.
-
have you guys run aros lately. if not you might want to. download the iso burn it and try it out. nothing i have seen anywhere else has had this much promise.
lou-dias i do agree that linux has some problems. the main problem it has is what it was meant to be- a unix clone. unix was never meant to be consumer os. it was designed what 35 years ago for mainframes etc.
thats were amigaos stepped in and should have made a stand. because it was a unixlike os designed from the start to be a consumer os. simple, efficient, modern, and especially designed for multimedia.
that is also why aros is so important. aros is now where linux was 10 years ago. mainstream computer users have bypassed linux because it is to complex to install, run, and maintain. and the simplicity of those things and efficiency are amigaos' and aros' greatest streangths.
BTW aros should be able to be ported to GC with a little effort.
also think about something. if os4 were to be released today, like right now, who would buy it? amiga diehards maybe with the money to do so. most computer users wont. aros is free! and it doenst even need to be intalled to try out, just burn a livecd. if aros 1.0 were to be released right now most amigans would at least give it a try andf i personally know quite a few non amiga fans that would.
-
AROS does show promise.
It just needs commercial support in the form of apps.
OS4 seems to have some support in that department. Real developers are developing OS4 apps.
If AROS is to exist on both PPC and x86 platform, it is going to need an intermediate common programming language like Window's .NET common runtime library. I'd hate to see a divided platform.
-
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=5849
review of new Viper Xtreme GC, SDK for USB bi-directional programming
usb adapter plugs into the broadband adapter port to replace the BBA...can't get something for nothing I guess...
too bad you couldn't use Serial Port 1 (for Rev A 'Cubes) then you could have your cake and eat it too.
-
I've got 2 GC's...........
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: etc...etc..
...I just had to do that.
-
Tripitaka wrote:
I've got 2 GC's...........
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: etc...etc..
...I just had to do that.
omg, this thread is still alive. 20 days till 1 year aniversary. This needs to make it to wikipedia. This is history here. The concept of an amiga/nintendo relationship. A makeup kit computer, complete with rainbow logos on the case and AOS4 inside. The thread that just wouldnt die.
This is history that our great grandchildren will be reading about in their computer history classes when they hit 5th grade.
-
I'm just too excited for w..
-
OMG, Gamecubes are evil though!!!! I mean yeah I know I have a XBox and that's considered to be the devil in the flesh, but at least it has some really nifty killer games. What can I really play on Gamecube that is worth playing? Resident Evils I guess.
I really don't feel like playing games like Piki-Coco Fluffy Chop Chop Feel Good Day, or Animal Sing Along Dualing Guitars.
:roll: No more sacchrin, pastel, enka saturated games. It's all about the blowing stuff up, and tearing stuff up.
-
justthatgood wrote:
OMG, Gamecubes are evil though!!!! I mean yeah I know I have a XBox and that's considered to be the devil in the flesh, but at least it has some really nifty killer games. What can I really play on Gamecube that is worth playing? Resident Evils I guess.
I really don't feel like playing games like Piki-Coco Fluffy Chop Chop Feel Good Day, or Animal Sing Along Dualing Guitars.
:roll: No more sacchrin, pastel, enka saturated games. It's all about the blowing stuff up, and tearing stuff up.
Hey hey hey...Call of Duty II: The Big Red One is available for the gaycube....err, Gamecube.
I told my wife that's the only way she'll get me to game on it as I prefer the PC. :-)
-
This post still alive? Oh my god!
-
Yes, it's still alive because unlike the Amiga market, new hardware to expand the capabilities of the Gamecube is still being developed. Same goes for software.
Low level AROS drivers are being ported and soon native PPC AROS will run on the Gamecube.
Revolution will be able to run AROS through it's GC compatibility via SDLoader using Action Replay (http://www.consolejunky.com/sdload-tutorial/) and if Nintendo's Wi-Fi emulates the BBA, the PSO method of executing homebrew code will also work.
Dave Haynie's remarks about not spending alot of money to run a hobby echo alot of what I've been saying about just using a simple cheap GC.
So it's $800-$1600 invested before you boot to Workbench. Once there, you don't have applications yet. So it's just a toy.
So return Amiga to it's roots as a console with a "cool" desktop. Bring back the games.
I was playing the 'Cube version of SNE9X 1.43. It's amazing when you compare it to the Windows version. It's just perfect. And there are Sega emulators as well...
When I launch Linux I get to a linux login in 5 seconds...and that's after it detects the hard ware and connects to a filesystem running on my PC over ethernet. So it's not exactly a stripped down bare-bones kernal. It also can be patched over the internet.
Homebrew shareware version of Doom for the 'Cube is 6.2MB and is running from my SD card in about 7-8 seconds...so much for SD memory being "slow"...(I am using a 1GB card, by the way).
Before the trolling resumes, here are my goals:
I am going to build a custom dashboard for my car with a stereo like this Kenwood Exelon DDX7017 (http://www.nextag.com/buyer/productm.jsp;jsessionid=452BC4B8D2307073978B7652EEBF5CA9?nxtg=10790a1c0502-55365A2CBEA44AC2&product=77193071).
I am going to mount my spare modded 'Cube in the car with the audio and video channelled to that stereo. I will use a wireless ethernet bridge to give the GC wireless internet access when I am near wi-fi hot zones. I need an OS such as AROS that will let me run a simple email application to keep up with my email. I will use a miniature keyboard (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1388872&CatId=533) to type. Mouse emulation will be provided by the GC's analog stick. All information will be stored on an SD card, including the OS. I can use Action Replay and my SD Gecko to boot my OS on any "un-modded" GC so I can take my files(and messages) indoors just by pulling out a card and bring them up on anybody's GC or just stick the SD card into a PC... It's all doable and the GC would still be useable for GC and homebrew games in the car.
That's a neat and cool thing that you don't need a full blown PC for and adds a certain "cool" factor like Amiga "used to have". I know people will say why not just use a laptop. Well, a laptop is easily stolen if left in a car. It can be expensive. It can break easily. And laptops don't have that "cool" factor anymore. Also, all I'd have to carry around is an SD memory card. A 3" Action Replay disc and memory card adapter if I want to run it on someone else's GC.
...troll away...
-
@lou_dias
I like it when you say those :crazy: things, show us the working version and I'll be truly impressed. :-D
I'm sold on modding my cube anyway as I've nearly finished my XBox (200GB HDD,executer chip ;-), clear blue case, nice round blue ATA 133 cable all done, I've got the kit for 2 rear USB ports and clear fan with blue cathode. They come next. Another cathode and matching casing for the controllers after that and I'll be done). :-D
-
The toughest part of the above project is actually designing the dash. Everything else is feasable once JLF65 finishes the AROS port.
I am looking into importing Xbox controller->USB adapter cables in quantity from the same place I ordered my 50 SD Geckos. I've sold about 25 to various GC homebrew developers including the one to the person porting AROS to GC.
The company has lots of good stuff for the console modding community...it's starting to become a nice little side business as a close friend is investing with me. So interestingly, something positive has become of this thread for me.
-
@Tripitaka
Ahhh, I wish when I had the money, I was ambition enough to do that to my XBox. At the time I bought into the even empire, and got me a XBox Live account, and I just didn't want to do anything to my hardware that was going to keep me from using it.
I guess now since there aren't going to be any really new Live hits coming out for the XBox since the XBox 360 is now the star, I think I might even attempt at doing that. I've never really been a fan of the Gamecube though. It just really didn't click with me, and the weird media concerned me even more. Add that with the stigma of being a "kiddie" system. Yes there are too many kiddie type games on that system. I don't think the N64 even had that degree of pastelness.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Hammer wrote:
@lou_dias
Theoretical vs Theoretical
Refer to
http://www.nintendo.com.au/gamecube/system/index.php
10.5 GFLOPS.
http://nvidia.com/page/console.html
80 GLOPS from NV2A
In terms being a calculator; NVIDIA’s NV2A kills the whole Nintendo Game Cube. GC can’t match a massively parallelled SIMD GPU.
Somehow I don't think the XBOX is the Cray supercomputer that this page you linked makes it seem to be.
Which Cray computer?
Also the 10.5 Gflops you quoted is:
Floating-point Arithmetic Capability 10.5 GFLOPS (Peak) for the GC's processor not GPU. What's the the Celeron in the XBox's FPU Arithmetic Capability? Let's compare apples to apples here.
10.5 GFLOPS (Peak) refers to MPU(CPU), Geometry Engine, HW Lighting.
-
Isn't "hitting the metal" what API's do? Why would you want re-invent the wheel. "Hitting the metal" is what made A500 games incompatible with later Amiga machines. Why go back down that road?(SNIP)
Would you like reduce AOS4 like DE?
Also, the GC has no BIOS.
GC would have it's own boot strap code.
So that is one less layer of R&D that is needed. Everything is in the Dev kit and loaded from the game disc. The GC's drive has a really low average seek time and that's why alot of software loads quickly on the system versus the others. When loading alot of smaller files, the GC will outperform a PS2 or XBOX in loading times.
The amount of data in XBOX is greater than GC i.e. it has enough performance to run Doom3** and FarCry**.
**Cut down from PC ports.
-
wow - talk about a blast from the past!
Own your Xbox and enjoy it just as I own my original and modded Gamecubes and enjoy them.
-
@justthatgood
Go for it! XBMC is v.cool. mmm..Kiddie console? I never did like that label, Eternal Darkness, Rogue leader and Metroid sold it for me. :roll:
I've still got an N64 too (with a V64 Dr ;-) ).
-
lou_dias wrote:
I already know C and C++. Guess what - C/C++ sucks ass.
C/C++ has it's place i.e. especially in performance sensitive code (without going to assembler programming).
If you want C/C++ performance with near VB.NET, why not try Delphi?
-
Yes, I know you've all been waiting for it.
A post in this thread.
According to: www.gc-linux.org
with the addition of a drivechip ( http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/273447 ) that costs $20-$30, you can create ISO's that will boot and run your code.
Once again re-iterating how CHEAP and EASY it is to develop for the Gamecube.
The linux site even has a video of linux booting from a disc in the cube's drive straight from the Cube's original bios screen.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, I know you've all been waiting for it.
A post in this thread.
According to: www.gc-linux.org
with the addition of a drivechip ( http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/273447 ) that costs $20-$30, you can create ISO's that will boot and run your code.
Once again re-iterating how CHEAP and EASY it is to develop for the Gamecube.
Seeing as you will need a pc to develop for the GC, wouldnt it be cheaper and easier to develop software that runs on pc's?
You get that GC hacked into you car yet?
-
koaftder wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, I know you've all been waiting for it.
A post in this thread.
According to: www.gc-linux.org
with the addition of a drivechip ( http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/273447 ) that costs $20-$30, you can create ISO's that will boot and run your code.
Once again re-iterating how CHEAP and EASY it is to develop for the Gamecube.
Seeing as you will need a pc to develop for the GC, wouldnt it be cheaper and easier to develop software that runs on pc's?
You get that GC hacked into you car yet?
Here's a review of the chip: http://www.consolejunky.com/xenogc-review/
I live in Mass, I bought the car from Alabama. There I had leather seats and added a factory sub-woofer option. From there I had it shipped to Illinois where it's waiting for a racing brake and suspension kit to be built as well as a 6 speed install. Hope to have it here for the end of March where I will have a remote starter (hope they will install on sticks) and alarm put it. Then I will have the motor ripped out and purchase a bigger block rebuilt for high performace. My first spectator drag race is Memorial Day weekend so I need the car driveable by then.
As for the GC install, that's after JLF65 has done his AROS port and suitable AROS applications exist. However, I can and probably will install a GC in my car when I redesign the dash with the stereo I linked to in a prior post whether or not a suitable OS exists...I mean, after all, it is still a Gamecube. Thanks for asking.
Ps,
I just picked up Fight Night Round 2. Phenominal in progressive scan. Graphics are absolutely amazing. It was $24.99 new at E.B. Games. It's almost a year old. Great game!
Oh and gcc does run on the gamecube in linux so you don't need a PC really except to burn the iso...but that could be a Mac or Linux box as well.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I live in Mass, I bought the car from Alabama. There I had leather seats and added a factory sub-woofer option. From there I had it shipped to Illinois where it's waiting for a racing brake and suspension kit to be built as well as a 6 speed install. Hope to have it here for the end of March where I will have a remote starter (hope they will install on sticks) and alarm put it. Then I will have the motor ripped out and purchase a bigger block rebuilt for high performace. My first spectator drag race is Memorial Day weekend so I need the car driveable by then.
As for the GC install, that's after JLF65 has done his AROS port and suitable AROS applications exist. However, I can and probably will install a GC in my car when I redesign the dash with the stereo I linked to in a prior post whether or not a suitable OS exists...I mean, after all, it is still a Gamecube. Thanks for asking.
Dang, thats a lot of transport fees you must be paying there. What kind of car is it? What are the specs on the engine your having put in?
-
Well, it's a Fiero GT and I got it transported for $500 and I think it'll be another $580 to get it from Illinois to here. Owning a Fiero puts you into a huge online community. The transporting company owner is another Fiero enthusiast and was one of the first to put a 4.9L Caddillac V8 in a Fiero and race it.
I'm sticking with the 60 degree V6. Stock is a 2.8L OHV motor with hydrolic cam, I'm boring (.080" over) a roller-cammed 3.4 to 3.5L. It will make more horsepower that the 4.9L V8 when I'm done. My car is here: www.v8archie.com
He is creating a 6 speed kit using the tranny from the Pontiac G6. Same bellhousing as my motor. Does Chevy 350/LT1/LS1 installs into Fieros. Now sells some sweet body kits...suicide doors...chop top kits....
My motor will use:
Magnum 1.52 roller rockers
aftermarket roller cam (don't know spec but will be slightly better than the cam in the 2004 3.5L Malibu)
custom size pushrods (needed for roller lifter instead of hydrolic)
pistons from a 3.4 twin dual overhead cam motor (.080" over for the extra .1L) for a compression ratio bump from 8.9 to 9.8
stainless steel polished SI valves
ported and polished heads
#17 injectors (might need 19#)
shortened and ported stock intake with bored +5mm throttle body
custom headers & crossover being developed from www.trueleo.com
2.5" exhaust with bullet style mufflers
K&N on a CRX cold air intake tube (yes, it fits)
I'm expecting ~200 rear wheel horse or about 230-240 gross.
For comparison, the Caddy 4.9L V8 dynos at ~ 157-166 rear wheel horse. It's rated at 200 at the flywheel when new. My last 3.4 netted 150 rwhp www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html with 100k miles on the block.
-
All the money you saved from -not- buying an A1 you can put towards gas!
:-P
Dang!
-
coldfish wrote:
All the money you saved from -not- buying an A1 you can put towards gas!
:-P
Dang!
That's why I'm switching from a 5 speed to a 6 speed! Well, that and the G6 6 speed can handle over 300 hp where as the stock 5 speed wasn't made to handle of 200 consistently. I do alot of highway driving...
I've been driving Fiero GT's exclusively since 1995. I'm on my 4th now. Sold the first for the second then totalled that one and the last one. You can take the biggest die-hard Amigan and when it comes to Fieros, I'd dwarf his obsession. The car simply feels like it was made just for me. I just like to improve upon what's already there...sorta like adding an accelerator and more RAM and a bigger HDD.
-
Ok, everybody power up their Gamecube.
Happy Anniversary!
-
lou_dias wrote:
Ok, everybody power up their Gamecube.
Happy Anniversary!
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :pint: :pint: :pint:
Now this is some history here, the amiga thread that lasted an entire year and it didnt have anything to do with t-shirts, nor was usenet involved.
Just immagine, Nintendo being the savior of amiga.
-
LOL
-
-
Yeah!!!! But I'm still not getting a GameCube though. I would rather get something like a G5 or something.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I already know C and C++. Guess what - C/C++ sucks ass.
You obviously don't *know* C or C++, otherwise you would *know* they don't "suck ass". To truly *know* a language you use it all the time.
It seems to me you may have had an introduction to it and you couldn't do it.
That don't mean it "sucks ass", it means you don't like something because you don't understand it.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
-
C/C++ sucks ass? Please excuse me whilst I go and laugh myself into a coma from oxygen deprivation :lol: :lol:
C/Objective-C/C++ are immensely powerful. Skill and imagination are your only realistic limits. That they integrate so well with code written in other languages only presses home the advantage these languages have already which is massive support and high performance. Lets face it, you want faster than well coded C, you end up doing asm.
-
C/C++ 'suck' because that advantage of being 'powerfull' is at the same time it's biggest drawback. People easily mess with it, like using pointers and other abuse (inconsistent use of) of variables. Combine that fact with object-oriented programming and welcome in bug-land :-)
-
People who can't code properly shouldn't bother at all.
Simple as. :-)
-
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
C/C++ 'suck' because that advantage of being 'powerfull' is at the same time it's biggest drawback. People easily mess with it, like using pointers and other abuse (inconsistent use of) of variables. Combine that fact with object-oriented programming and welcome in bug-land :-)
Exactly. I got an A in C and had an A in C++ until the take home final project that we were given a week to work on. I went out of my way to make everything in the situation we were simulating an object. I implemented every object-oriented feature (polymorphism, superclassing, friends...you name it) and it just crashed. Narrowed it down to exactly what made it crash and checked it 20 times and asked others to look at it and noone knew why it just crashed. It was an illegal reference...but it wasn't. I ended up with a B because I failed the final.
That B made me give C++ the F.
Now I happily program database driven applications in VB.Net... which doesn't crash for no apparent reason when I instantiate objects.
This is 2006. Code doesn't have to look cryptic anymore. We have MEGABYTES of RAM to play with not 38k (Commodore 64). It can look pretty and readable and still be fast. Really it can. Honestly, other than uber-geek bragging rights, why settle for C/C++?
And frankly, what makes C++ worse is the people who code in it. You all know who you are. You make your code o ugly, know one would dare modify your original source because no one can freaking read it!
PS,
To the person who wants a G5 - get a Revolution.
-
"Sucks ass" :-? something along the lines of: suck a {bleep} (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A//www.imdb.com/title/tt0246578/quotes&ei=TwngQ872OcPWQZic2d4D&sig2=2ExiYLeM6t5sP_kfeNuteg)"?? :roll: :-D
-
Allow me to continue my rant...
I mentioned it at the end.
Code maintenance is why you don't find C++ in the business world. No one wants to maintain other people's C++ code in crucial business applications where a simple logic error results in huge corporate losses.
So you who find it so powerful and feel so proud of yourself for writing an obscure routine to get some task done in a way no one with an IQ under 169 will understand... You will forever be a demo coder. That just doesn't work in the business world where you have to document and revise code and enhance functionality and make things easier for your end users.
And your job will only be harder if you have to enhance the code of the guy who had the job before you who thought he was pretty smart as well.
Anyone here who also has an IT job knows what I mean. The rest of you are hackers or hacks. Atleast hackers can share there accomplishments for the good of all. Hacks are just selfish and obsessed with their own geekness.
-
@lou_dias
Anyone here who also has an IT job knows what I mean.
You must work for somewhere worse than I do, then. By contrast most other places I've seen that use languages like C/C++ also use design tools and a range of systems and guidelines to ensure their codebase is clean, well documented and properly maintained. They simply don't have the time for people to sit there and write cryptic crap that nobody else can understand.
Code maintenance is why you don't find C++ in the business world. No one wants to maintain other people's C++ code in crucial business applications where a simple logic error results in huge corporate losses.
One of the worst places I have heard of is a multinational bank that has most of its software written and maintained in assembler (some variety for their workstations). I know some poor bugger who has to sit there all day maintaining that stuff. I was aghast when I heard that this was how they operated.
People use whatever technology they have invested time in. Your comment is therefore invalid. Sure new companies can use some new higher level programming language if they dont have any older systems to support, but contrary to your claim, C/C++ is use all over the buisness world as are languages even lower, like the example above.
Anyway, all that aside, why does the buisness use or non use of a language have any bearing on wether or not that language is suitable for your particular needs? Heck, plenty of places use cobol but I don't think I'll start using it for my own work :-)
Your post still reads "C/C++ sucks because I personally don't like it" rather than any real reason it might be inadequate. Heck, if you had just said it was not for you I doubt you'd be having to defend your position.
-
@lou_dias
I have a Atari XEGS, 3 Sega Saturns, an Apple IIGS, and a XBox . Why would I need another game console? It's all nice and stuff to have the cool factor of hacking consoles, but too me I like having real computers. Yeah. The last Nintendo product I paid into was a Super Nintendo. That was ages ago. Nintendo has to do some serious making up before they get my trust in spending money in their products. That's why I only have the Saturn (the other two I literally got for free), and didn't get the Dreamcast. I remember Sega even yanked the development kit for the Saturn, and probably were going to expect me to cough up cash for the Dreamcast SDK.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Exactly. I got an A in C and had an A in C++ until the take home final project that we were given a week to work on. I went out of my way to make everything in the situation we were simulating an object. I implemented every object-oriented feature (polymorphism, superclassing, friends...you name it) and it just crashed. Narrowed it down to exactly what made it crash and checked it 20 times and asked others to look at it and noone knew why it just crashed. It was an illegal reference...but it wasn't. I ended up with a B because I failed the final.
That B made me give C++ the F.
So you are telling us that c++ sucks because in your limited
scholastic experience you didnt make the grade you wanted because you couldnt figure out a bug in your program?
This has to be one of the lamest arguments ive ever heard.
Now I happily program database driven applications in VB.Net... which doesn't crash for no apparent reason when I instantiate objects.
This is 2006. Code doesn't have to look cryptic anymore. We have MEGABYTES of RAM to play with not 38k (Commodore 64). It can look pretty and readable and still be fast. Really it can. Honestly, other than uber-geek bragging rights, why settle for C/C++?
To say that any language generally is no good is an absurd statement. When starting a project you first define what the problem is, and how you intend to provide a solution. Every language has it's strengths and weakness. The goal is to pick a language or set of languages that fits. Youve got a lot of things to take into account, legacy stuff, the skill sets of the staff, speed of implimentation, etc. You seem to be doing db stuff, and you have skills with vb and not c, so obviously you went that route. If the boss is happy and you are still getting paid then you made the right decisions.
In a project i'm working on, an embedded device making use of an 8052 microprocessor, we had to pick a language. Our choices were basic, c, or assembler. We rulled out assembler off the top, as there is a lot of float math we need to do and float math in assembler can be very time consuming. We wanted to use basic, as it would make code review go quicker, allowing us to get to market faster, but in evaulating a few basic compilers for 8052 we found that many features we require were lacking. I evaualated several c compilers, picked the one that met our requirements and set out to start development.
And that started out with requirements documentation, implementation dox, flow charts and state diagrams. We have a coding standard, variable names have an order, comments are abundant, and source is peer reviewed. We didnt need to do this because we are writing software in c, we do this because this is how you write software that works. The procedures would have been the same regardless of what language we decided to use. The decade doesnt matter, use the right tool for the job.
[/quote]
And frankly, what makes C++ worse is the people who code in it. You all know who you are. You make your code o ugly, know one would dare modify your original source because no one can freaking read it!
Poorly written vb.net code isnt any easier to read than poorly written c code.
-
Well your arguement for not programming in Cobol is the same reason as why you are programming in C++ for your current employer.
It's what was there when you got there.
I've work for 2 small manufacturing companies. One was founded in the 80's and code was written in Foxpro by the then 16 year old owner's son. The other set up shop in the early 90's.
The first moved up to Visual FoxPro 6.0 then I slowly did alot of stuff in VB6.0 and maintained the VFP.
Where I am now, an engineer coded some test equipment in LabView to control PLC's and other such devices. Now I'm providing WIP systems and management tools in VB.NET. It's all brand new. They have an accounting system and I supplement it with my own stuff.
Legacy is why C++ and Cobol are still around in business.
As for defending my opinion... Everything I that say is subjective is my opinion and needs no defending. If I stated a specific fact with real measurable values such as performance figures, then I would need to back that up. I gave MY reasons for not liking C++. I never said that you absolutely can't do function foo() in C++. I just said, it's uglier and I can make it more maintainable in another language.
People want to tout how compliers do a better job optimizing than you could do on your own in assembly. If that's true and compiler technology has advanced (as it has) then C/C++ looses it's speed advantages and is left for "those" types of people I described above to dribble over.
Case in point:
a = b++; /* C/C++ code */
vs.
b += 1 ' VB.Net code
a = b
Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in. The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly? Also if I had made it:
a = ++b;
it would have different functionality and when I'm scanning code to make a change to meet a deadline, I don't need that extra layer of un-needed logical complexity to get the job done.
and for christ's sake, editors support more than 80 columns since like 1985, why do I still have to put a friggin semi-colon at the end of every friggin line?
It's it's own legacy that makes it ugly.
-
@koftloader,
LOL, now you stand here judging my scholastic ability.
I used to code 8502 assembly in '86 when I considered myself a "hacker" with my trusty 128D. You can judge me all you want. I've forgotten more things than kids with CIS degrees today know.
I don't have the patience for any of that stuff anymore. I'm in my mid 30's. I have a full-time job. I have rental property to maintain.
I don't have time to study code for a hobby. To write my own kernal. I plain don't want to. I leave that to the people who are already experts at it because one guy in his bedroom isn't going to re-invent the wheel. Now given a nice IDE with a proper API for creating applications to do specific tasks that I need done or get paid to do - now that I have time for.
Edit:
I mis read your post as 8502 not 8052...but the point is the same.
-
Case in point:
a = b++; /* C/C++ code */
vs.
b += 1 ' VB.Net code
a = b
Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in. The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly? Also if I had made it:
a = ++b;
Your two snippets are not equivalent. With the c code, you assign the value of b to a first then you add one to b.
Your vbcode adds one to b then assigns that value to a.
Before you start getting into arguments about language semantics, maybe you should learn the language first?
-
lou_dias wrote:
@koftloader,
LOL, now you stand here judging my scholastic ability.
I used to code 8502 assembly in '86 when I considered myself a "hacker" with my trusty 128D. You can judge me all you want. I've forgotten more things than kids with CIS degrees today know.
I don't have the patience for any of that stuff anymore. I'm in my mid 30's. I have a full-time job. I have rental property to maintain.
I don't have time to study code for a hobby. To write my own kernal. I plain don't want to. I leave that to the people who are already experts at it because one guy in his bedroom isn't going to re-invent the wheel. Now given a nice IDE with a proper API for creating applications to do specific tasks that I need done or get paid to do - now that I have time for.
Again, the point i was making went completely over your head.
-
I majored in computer science for one semester. What I learned is that no matter my understanding of numbers and CPUs, I will never understand other programmers, and certainly not their source code.
-
koaftder wrote:
Case in point:
a = b++; /* C/C++ code */
vs.
b += 1 ' VB.Net code
a = b
Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in. The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly? Also if I had made it:
a = ++b;
Your two snippets are not equivalent. With the c code, you assign the value of b to a first then you add one to b.
Your vbcode adds one to b then assigns that value to a.
Before you start getting into arguments about language semantics, maybe you should learn the language first?
Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.
When I write
b += 1
a = b
It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here. Thanks for proving my point. :-D
-
Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.
When I write
b += 1
a = b
It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here. Thanks for proving my point. :-D
The only point that was proved is that you dont know c.
The same types of logic errors can be made in your favorite language as well. And if you wanted to you could break up the statement into 2 lines of c like you did with your vb example. Your ignorance of the language does not make a valid argument as to whether or not it's obsolete.
-
koaftder wrote:
Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.
When I write
b += 1
a = b
It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here. Thanks for proving my point. :-D
The only point that was proved is that you dont know c.
The same types of logic errors can be made in your favorite language as well. And if you wanted to you could break up the statement into 2 lines of c like you did with your vb example. Your ignorance of the language does not make a valid argument as to whether or not it's obsolete.
OK, so if I can break it up into the same 2 statements then why is it superior in C?
C saved space when that requirement was important. It's not anymore...and it still requires those accursed semi-colons so when you break it up, it takes up more space in your source code file sizes...
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
Logic errors are easy to make and your own eyes can deceive you and your brain can play tricks on you with such a sublte and simple thing as where to put a ++.
When I write
b += 1
a = b
It's pretty hard to not figure out what's going on here. Thanks for proving my point. :-D
The only point that was proved is that you dont know c.
The same types of logic errors can be made in your favorite language as well. And if you wanted to you could break up the statement into 2 lines of c like you did with your vb example. Your ignorance of the language does not make a valid argument as to whether or not it's obsolete.
OK, so if I can break it up into the same 2 statements then why is it superior in C?
C saved space when that requirement was important. It's not anymore...and it still requires those accursed semi-colons so when you break it up, it takes up more space in your source code file sizes...
It's not superior, honestly, it doesnt matter. The modern c programmer is not concerned with the size of his source files. But, for most people who know the language, a=++b; just aint a big deal, we all know whats going on there.
And with the semicolon thing, who cares? Makes it easy to break up a long line into multiple ones. I dont hear you complaining that python figures out scope by looking at tabs. You can break up long lines too, via another method, its the _ character isnt it? Who cares? Are you really so bothered by a ; or that you have the option to say a=++b; instead of b++;a=b; ? Why not compain about php and the '=' '==' & '===' operators as well? What language doesnt have something in it that some people find strange? Why not compain about forth and how you have to pass parameters on the stack your self unlike other languages which do this for you behind the scenes?
Lets complain about and tell the world it's '06 and we need to move on? Do you compain about flathead screwdrivers not being good for unscrewing torx screws? My original point was analise the situation, use the right tool for the job. Some times vb.net is the right tool, some times it's c, sometimes it's assembler or php or perl or lua or ruby or objC or java or vbscript or fortran or lisp or ada or smalltalk or ....
-
What came first, the interpreted language, or the interpreter? :-D
Just saying, you can't have .NET without C/C++. (Ok, technically, they're not interpreted, but compiled to intermediate code and run via the framework, but what do you think the framework was coded in?)
-
@koaftder
Which to me in the case of any device that would have a less then ideal system bus, and a paltry amount of memory, it would be C/C++. Err, or you could use Forth, Sy, Python, REBOL, etc... (I remember loved Atari Pilot and LOGO)
-
justthatgood wrote:
@koaftder
Which to me in the case of any device that would have a less then ideal system bus, and a paltry amount of memory, it would be C/C++. Err, or you could use Forth, Sy, Python, REBOL, etc... (I remember loved Atari Pilot and LOGO)
64kb flash in code segment, 8 bit micro @ 16MHz, 2kb ram. Seems pretty limited, but you can do an awful lot with it. I considered forth ( i like forth ) but couldnt go with it for a number of reasons, mainly because nobody is familiar with the language, so code reviews would be really slow. If i left they would have to find a forth guy, which could be hard, and he's probably going to be more expensive than an average c guy.
-
Hah!
REAL MEN program in Haskell (http://www.haskell.org)!
Loops and variables are for girls! :lol:
-
But Forth has been used in the firmware of a lot of microsystems, Apples and Sun systems I know of. Lots of embedded system goodness.
Eeks, we just need to get good code to run our stuff with as little overhead as possible, not dig into liner second order homogeneous equations with constant cofficients and stuff.
:roll: Some people get too excited about differential equations, and it scares me. That's why you catch hardcore geeks and NASA workers in the bathroom with MIT and other technology journals (oh yes, you are a bad bad polynomial with a bad set of parabolas)
-
DamageX: I majored in computer science for one semester. What I learned is that no matter my understanding of numbers and CPUs, I will never understand other programmers, and certainly not their source code.
Most programmers seem more interested in saving themselves some typing than doing things properly. For the best example of this, try looking at almost any random Perl script. Regex was never meant to be used in such ghastly ways, but since Perl doesn't really support functions, I suppose you have to use what's available.
Lou: Now others can possibly understand why C/C++ sucks arse.
I agree that C/C++ is too low-level for most things these days, but criticizing the syntax is hardly helpful. There's nothing wrong with a=b++ if you know what you are doing, and actually use better variable names than "a" and "b".
A better example: strings. Why do we still use arrays of characters in C? Because C progammers are professionals, and are not stupid enough to do things that will result in gobs of buffer overflows, of course! If one occurs, we can just blame Windows, because everyone knows that buffer overflows don't happen in Linux.
I've heard similar arguments to support SimbianOS. Who cares if it's complicated and requires lots of manual low-level control? The coders are good enough to handle it!
Lou: b += 1
Er, C supports this operator. It might be more useful to complain about something C can't actually do. ;-)
C saved space when that requirement was important. It's not anymore...and it still requires those accursed semi-colons so when you break it up, it takes up more space in your source code file sizes...
What's wrong with spacing out your code?
Of course, the size of source code is a terrible thing, considering that it doesn't really affect the size of the compiled program. :-)
Gee wiz, I notice people are still using spaces instead of tabs to indent their lines. Do they care that all those spaces add to the file length? Nah, if they run out of space on their 160GB hard drive, they can always just trim off a comment or two.
Oh yeah, and having to write everything on one line is not an advantage. I can't even stand to look at any BASIC descendent since I gave up on AMOS and learned a *real* language. VisualBasic looks so archaic for a high-level language.
adolescent: What came first, the interpreted language, or the interpreter?
They were both shipped 6 months late.
Seriously, I find it unfortunate that "old" language are left to rot while people put all the development time into newfangled OOP languages that still don't put logic ahead of syntax and less typing. The world really could use a good, modern procedural language. As a person who isn't that fond of OOP, I'm tired of seeing such languages get all the cool features.
-
blah blah blah. A thread started about amigaOS on nintendo, morphed into a retarded discussion about language a vs language b.
The language itself is just a tool. Being skilled at writing software has less to do with language, and almost everything to do with design. It all boils down to math, and languages are just ways to express the algorithms. Languages just provide different ways to express the design. To argue one language over the other without any substantial reason is just proving to the world that you dont actually have a clue.
-
@lou_dias
I think you misread my post. I am not writing C++ for my current employer, is said that if you think C++ is too a maintenance headache for buisness use then the places you have found this to be true are obviously worse then where I work ;-)
For the record, I typically use C/C++/asm in my own coding projects. At work, it's all web related stuff using PHP/MySQL/JS/Java.
Anyway, obvious flaw about it not being used, I seem to recall that buisness has a lot of heavy use of C/C++. The operating systems and appliations themselves for starters :-P
So far you have not raised a single genuine reason to substantiate your claim that the lanaguage sucks.
If you have code that crashes because you instansiate something, better look into the constructor to see if something failed rather than just blame the language. After all, the language specifies that you can't return an error from a constructor, and in any non trivial (ie resource allocating) class, something might fail. You could wrap it in an exception handler, of course, and catch the problem that way. Or better still, use a factory or builder pattern to creare objects. This can guarentee they are properly constructed before returning them.
Code doesn't have to be unsafe if you know how the language works. As someone else pointed out, char* is fine in the hands of people that know exactly how it works and don't try to misuse it. If you need more, you could use std::string...
Anyway I seem to have totally lost what this had to do with GC :-D
-
Yes, I know most OS's are written in C and that means C is in the business world - but it's not. The OS is in the business world and is not maintained by each individual customer. The OS is an end product. C/C++ is just not the dominant language in the IT world when companies need quick applications or reports.
Well, the fact that I don't like C is why I'm waiting for someone else to get an OS running on the GC vs. me doing it myself.
I realize games development is done in C/C++ but I'm not games developer and neither are most of you.
@Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line. It's easier to debug.
@koftldr
Basic has the ':' incase I want to put 2 commands on one like. I still don't want to put 2 commands on one like. That's the point. C was made to be small.
then there's:
{
{
{
}
}
}
I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.
That's why C/C++ sucks.
I never said it isn't capable of doing anything. Just that degugging it and maintaining it is harder - that's the disadvantage. Compilers will compile ideally. The language it irrelevant, so it might as well be easy to read and use
-
What has this to do with the GC??????.
Anyway c is a good programming language, and if it sometimes can get complex it's because it's inherent power.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, I know most OS's are written in C and that means C is in the business world - but it's not. The OS is in the business world and is not maintained by each individual customer. The OS is an end product. C/C++ is just not the dominant language in the IT world when companies need quick applications or reports.
Well, the fact that I don't like C is why I'm waiting for someone else to get an OS running on the GC vs. me doing it myself.
I realize games development is done in C/C++ but I'm not games developer and neither are most of you.
@Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line. It's easier to debug.
@koftldr
Basic has the ':' incase I want to put 2 commands on one like. I still don't want to put 2 commands on one like. That's the point. C was made to be small.
then there's:
{
{
{
}
}
}
I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.
That's why C/C++ sucks.
I never said it isn't capable of doing anything. Just that degugging it and maintaining it is harder - that's the disadvantage. Compilers will compile ideally. The language it irrelevant, so it might as well be easy to read and use
cmon, your not helping out on the porting because your not up to the task. Just be honest about it. Maybe you just dont have the time, good god, dont blame the language it's written in.
yes, your {{{}}} example is cute. Its a worthless example though, as nobody would just pile up a bunch of empty braces like that.
Again, all languages allow people to write absurd programs. That doesnt make the language bad.
Since apparantly you are the resident language expert, what language do you purpose we all code in?
-
as for the brackets, you can insert your own code.
Let's look at other languages like Vb for instance:
For loops are enclosed within the For and Next statements
DO ... LOOP
If ... THEN
...
ELSEIF
...
ELSE
...
END IF
Instead we get stiff like
for(i=0;i<10;++i)
{
If mod(i,2) = 0 {
printf("even\n")}
else {
printf("odd like koaftder()\n")
}
} /* let me count...did I use enough closing brackets? */
I can encase it in more commands and finally a function if you'd like so that I can throw more brackets in there...
...
instead of
Dim i as short
For i = 0 to 9
If Mod(i, 2) = 0 Then
console.out "Even"
ELSE
console.out "why must you annoy me koaftder?"
END IF
NEXT i
All I'm saying it's ugly lends itself to aggrivation. They make spell checkers and grammar checkers for word processors which are more complex than less than 100 commands a compiler has to translate.
Hey, if you think c++ is pretty...
...well fat chicks need love too.
-
@lou_dias
let me fix that for you:
int i;
for( i=0; i<10; ++i ) {
if ( mod(i,2) == 0 ) {
printf ( "even\n" ) ;
} else {
printf ( "odd like koaftder()\n" ) ;
}
}
I dont think the above is hard to read... Using enough braces is not an issue. When you write in a '{' you immedately write in the trailing '}' before you fill it in. A nice IDE makes all this even easier. Most will highlight the associated bracket when you move the cursor over it. Lines with syntactical problems are highlighted, etc. Most can autoindent and all that good stuff you are used to in visual studio.
If you think it's ugly, thats your personal oppinion, it has no bearing on whether or not the language sucks.
And you still didnt answer my question, since you think c sucks, what is your ideal language?
-
VB.NET
-
lou_dias wrote:
VB.NET
:lol:
anyway, vb.net is pretty cool, i use it from time to time, nice and convinent. A top notch rad tool. Cant use it for everything though. Sometimes it's the right tool for the job, other times c is the right tool. Different strenghts, different weakness.
-
It's basic. It's object-oriented. It's straight-forward.
It's great!
I still miss control arrays from 6.0 though...
-
Lou: @Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line. It's easier to debug.
Uh, you were actually comparing "+=" to "++".
C is perfectly capable of using "+=", which means your example effectively is C code. A better example would be nice.
Lou: I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.
Everyone knows these problems don't exist in non-C lanugage, of course.
As with most topics in this thread, you're trying too hard to defend or bash one particular way of doing things. You don't keep your options open, or even care to know about them.
Koaftder: yes, your {{{}}} example is cute
Indeed. Good programmers don't nest lots of loops. C also doesn't require code to be broken into blocks in most cases. Brackets are designed to improve readability, if used wisely.
Thus, the endless debate about whether to use open brackets at the end of a line or on a new line by itself. Personally, I prefer the end-of-line structure, but C doesn't force anyone to do that. That's what's nice about the structure of C code. For the most part, it doesn't dictate form, like many BASICs do.
Lou: /* let me count...did I use enough closing brackets? */
*cough* Try indenting, or at least use the "[ code]" tag when you want to show examples in a forum.
If you don't indent when using "THEN", "ELSE", and "END IF", does that improve readability?
Lou:
If ... THEN
I find keywords to be much harder to read than brackets, capitalized or not. But, that's just me.
Lou: Dim i as short
This is easier to read than "int i=0;"?
-
@waccoon
it comes down to reading.
I can read basic to myself and it's closer to the english language where as C is not.
for instance: Dim I as short
I read it as "dimension I as type short"
int i=0; while functionally the same doesn't READ well when scanning code. Same with If THEN ELSE ENDIF vs. if () {} else {}
Again, we have the RAM. We can use WHOLE words now.
C++ is just C with extensions. C was developed what like in the 60's? and c compliers were fast because they didn't do alot of the same "error" checking such as out of bounds indexing that other languages did. So for embedded, low resource systems, C was fine. That's not an issue anymore.
And Waccoon, there you go bringing me into your own context again. I was not comparing b+=1 to b++, I was comparing trying to do 2 things on one line using the ++ side-effect vs. making it more readable and doing it on 2 lines and less prone to logic errors. Once again you try to put words in my mouth. Nice try. NOT!
-
@lou_dias
To you and like minded people perhaps BASIC syntax is more readable. To myself and many others it is dramatically less readable than any C like language.
The size of syntax is absolutely naff all to do with RAM consumption, C was developed on Unix systems where even then this was far less of an issue than you seem to imply. The syntax is crisp and terse and very well structured. You might disagree, and you are welcome to, but your arguments that C is less readable is entirely subjective.
-
Karlos wrote:
The size of syntax is absolutely naff all to do with RAM consumption, C was developed on Unix systems where even then this was far less of an issue than you seem to imply.
When you only an 80x25 text screen, C let you cram the most code into one screen. Ever try scrolling on some of those old dumb terminals?
That's why it's ugly. It's a moot point and if you've ever used the Visual Studio.Net IDE for VB, you see exactly how readable the IDE makes your VB code. I'm sure it does the same for VC++ but when every line is filled with combinations of {}, @, ->, (), . and ; - it's still fugly.
Now mind you - alot of that is so you wouldn't have to scroll back up to see how you declare a function/variable. Again, trivial by today's standards but an issue in a VT100 300BAUD dumb terminal.
It was a language reflective of the times back then. JAVA is a cleaner rendition.
-
First, until you actually use C, or Java, you shouldn't be commenting on it.
BASIC is an ass-backwards language, it teaches poor programming techniques, it looks really ugly on screen, and really is a language for beginners. VisualBasic only looks good because it interfaces with the entire Windows API.
C, a late 70's language, is a very clean language that anyone with half a brain can pick up quickly. It was designed by intelligent people and not because it could fit a lot onto an 80x25 display - a remarkably uninformed viewpoint!
C++ is very different when you start using the additional features. I personally don't like C++ however.
Java has a quite nice language structure and if it wasn't for some poor decisions at the GUI library level it would be the application language of choice in many areas now. C# has forced it to evolve again though, which is good.
Any programmer who can't handle curly brackets for blocks of code should shoot themselves in my opinion. Indentation of code is the natural way to read block structure - indeed Python went as far as removing all block keywords/symbols and using the indentation directly.
-
lou_dias wrote:
When you only an 80x25 text screen, C let you cram the most code into one screen. Ever try scrolling on some of those old dumb terminals? That's why it's ugly.
Just because you can densely pack C source code does not mean that this is how best to format it. So, you are saying C is ugly because it can be written legally with next to no formatting? What kind of argument is that?
I can write VB code just as badly and there are C source editors that will beautify your source automatically as you write it. What's your point, exactly?
It was a language reflective of the times back then. JAVA is a cleaner rendition.
So, let's get this straight. You are saying that from a language syntax point of view, C/C++ are 'fugly' but Java is not so bad? :crazy:
Right, I mean it's not as if java's syntax is directly a subset of C/C++ or anything :-D
Take C/C++, take out pointer syntax, take out all preprocessor stuff, take out anything not defined 'inline' within a class, take out multiple inheritance, take out operator overloading, add a few keywords, an unsigned shift left operator, change subtly the meanings of one or two others and throw in more predefined classes than the average programmer can ever spend the time to fully learn and you have Java.
-
Hattig wrote:
First, until you actually use C, or Java, you shouldn't be commenting on it.
BASIC is an ass-backwards language, it teaches poor programming techniques, it looks really ugly on screen, and really is a language for beginners. VisualBasic only looks good because it interfaces with the entire Windows API.
C, a late 70's language, is a very clean language that anyone with half a brain can pick up quickly. It was designed by intelligent people and not because it could fit a lot onto an 80x25 display - a remarkably uninformed viewpoint!
C++ is very different when you start using the additional features. I personally don't like C++ however.
Java has a quite nice language structure and if it wasn't for some poor decisions at the GUI library level it would be the application language of choice in many areas now. C# has forced it to evolve again though, which is good.
Any programmer who can't handle curly brackets for blocks of code should shoot themselves in my opinion. Indentation of code is the natural way to read block structure - indeed Python went as far as removing all block keywords/symbols and using the indentation directly.
I've always been comparing to Visual Basic (VB...VB.net), not BASIC... and why are curly brackets the definition of proper formatting? Visual Studio has intelligent auto-indenting. So I don't know where your complaints are coming from.
I've used alot of different languages. That's why I AM complaining.
-
Karlos wrote:
Take C/C++, take out pointer syntax, take out all preprocessor stuff
now you are starting to get the right idea
Like I said a cleanER rendition...
Again this is my opinion. A million arguments that start with "but if ..." isn't going to change it.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Karlos wrote:
Take C/C++, take out pointer syntax, take out all preprocessor stuff
now you are starting to get the right idea
Like I said a cleanER rendition...
No, you said that C/C++ suited an era of cryptic, densely packed source code to save memory, screen space whatever. You then claim that java is a better rendition and yet in every important syntactical way it is identical to C/C++. Same operators, same braces, same indentation.
The things I listed were features removed from the language for different reasons, they were not removed for a cleaner syntax, even if it has led to cleaner looking source - which itself is subjective. Do you have any idea how tiring it is to read through a large java class when you are only interested in the method/property names? In this regard, it is a step backwards from C++, which at leasts allows you to define these things in a header and fill the data in later.
Again, I am afraid the point doesn't stand. If C/C++ are syntactically fugly for all the reasons you have previously stated, then java is *equally* fugly as it still retains all of the C syntax you have so far criticised.
-
Here's a quote that sums up lou and his vast knowledge of programming languages.
"We mock what we do not understand." - Austin Millbarge
Lou, you're a ml programmer from way back? Yet you can't follow C syntax? Suuuuuuuure. :-D
-
And let me tell you MY opinion. I'd been trying to learn Basic ever since I was a child and I kept doing so until I was 13-14 or so. Then, I tried C and not only did I get it straight away but I found it to be incredibly logical. More than that, you can read Basic code loudly all you want but it doesn't make the damn awful IF, THEN BS more followable code. I CANNOT follow a Basic program if it's more than a few lines long, it has no clear structure.
-
Ive noticed that most of the other developer types on a.org never bothered to add their bit to this discussion. That probably means something.
-
Well it amuses me to see people get all huffy about subjective material.
Developers has their favorite environment and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it unless mandated to change it by a superior or sheer curiosity.
Waccoon, you can run your mouth all you want. So because I had 2 classes in C/C++ some 15 years ago, I'm supposed to remember every nuance? Same with 6502/8502 assembly when I was 16 or 17 and 8088 assembly during a college course...again 15 years ago. What I do remember is my impressions of using the language. That's all I need. I started using Visual Studio in 97/98 and haven't needed anything else ever since. I have read a book on Java Certification Exams since then but I couldn't become comfortable in and IDE so I was turned off by it. Even read a book on PHP/MySQL/Apache for Windows (WAMP) (C for the internet - oh joy) and didn't like that either.
I'm employed to develop in VB.net 2003 (soon 2005) with SQL Server. I have no need nor desire to force myself to like a language that isn't going to pay my bills.
Unless one of YOU are going to pay me to say that I like C or C++, it's not going to happen. Deal with it.
ps,
About 8502 vs. 8088, I forget the instruction, but I remember an 6502/8502 instruction that was the equivalent of 2 8088 instructions in sequence. Other than the lack of registers, I enjoyed 8502 assembly alot more than 8088 assembly and that also helped me perceive the entire x86 line of CPUs less favorably, not that I've kept up with it...but none the less, a lasting impression was left on me. Now please, someone ramble on about why I should love x86 assembly... :roll:
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well it amuses me to see people get all huffy about subjective material.
Developers has their favorite environment and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it unless mandated to change it by a superior or sheer curiosity.
Waccoon, you can run your mouth all you want. So because I had 2 classes in C/C++ some 15 years ago, I'm supposed to remember every nuance? Same with 6502/8502 assembly when I was 16 or 17 and 8088 assembly during a college course...again 15 years ago. What I do remember is my impressions of using the language. That's all I need. I started using Visual Studio in 97/98 and haven't needed anything else ever since. I have read a book on Java Certification Exams since then but I couldn't become comfortable in and IDE so I was turned off by it. Even read a book on PHP/MySQL/Apache for Windows (WAMP) (C for the internet - oh joy) and didn't like that either.
I'm employed to develop in VB.net 2003 (soon 2005) with SQL Server. I have no need nor desire to force myself to like a language that isn't going to pay my bills.
Unless one of YOU are going to pay me to say that I like C or C++, it's not going to happen. Deal with it.
Your oppinion about a language that you used briefly 15 years ago means nothing to anybody. And thats what everybody is saying, so why do you feel the need to keep repeating it?
-
koaftder wrote:
Your oppinion about a language that you used briefly 15 years ago means nothing to anybody. And thats what everybody is saying, so why do you feel the need to keep repeating it?
Because they keep expecting me to change it as if I should worship the keyboard they type on.
-
AmiGR wrote:
And let me tell you MY opinion. I'd been trying to learn Basic ever since I was a child and I kept doing so until I was 13-14 or so. Then, I tried C and not only did I get it straight away but I found it to be incredibly logical. More than that, you can read Basic code loudly all you want but it doesn't make the damn awful IF, THEN BS more followable code. I CANNOT follow a Basic program if it's more than a few lines long, it has no clear structure.
Stop looking @ Microsoft's Commodore 64 Basic 2.0! :roflmao:
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Your oppinion about a language that you used briefly 15 years ago means nothing to anybody. And thats what everybody is saying, so why do you feel the need to keep repeating it?
Because they keep expecting me to change it as if I should worship the keyboard they type on.
Your opinion is an unpopular one. If you went to democrats.org and ranted on about how great bush is you would get similar feedback. Obviously this just isnt the place to tell the world that you think vb.net is better than c/c++. Sorry, thats just how life works.
-
Nor is it the place to ask for an Amiga OS on Nintendo hardware... But I did it anyway.
What is interesting is that some who don't agree have also not ever used Visual Studio...atleast I've used C/C++.
-
I have used Visual Studio and, sorry, I still hate Basic.
BTW, it's useless for what I'm doing anyway. I'm an electronic engineering student, so it has to be hardware banging usually.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Nor is it the place to ask for an Amiga OS on Nintendo hardware... But I did it anyway.
What is interesting is that some who don't agree have also not ever used Visual Studio...atleast I've used C/C++.
I'm supprised... For the longest time i used VisualStudio on my linux c projects because i like the IDE so much. Version 7 was a major improvement over 6 in my opinion. These days i use kDevelop, it's somewhat similiar to VS. Another IDE i use a lot is uVision3 from keil, it's somewhat similar to vs as well.
I wouldnt hold it against somebody for never having used VS though. VS is personally is my favorite, but i'll use what ever is most approprate for the task at hand. There are so many good IDE's out there, in a general sense, it doesnt really matter.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Nor is it the place to ask for an Amiga OS on Nintendo hardware... But I did it anyway.
What is interesting is that some who don't agree have also not ever used Visual Studio...atleast I've used C/C++.
So after 32 pages of comments we've established that:-
*You are a fanatical Nintendo fanboy
*You won't listen to arguments presented to you
*You like to spout on about things you don't know/understand
*And you're a shyte programmer.
Groovy!
-
My final contribution to this invaluable thread:
sums it up pretty good (http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.phpi/463c5922/arguing.jpg)
-
*I guess I'm a going to be a Nazi Microsoft loving freak because I wanna a XBox 360 for some strange reason (maybe after they get all the hardware problems straighten out )
*I like to listen to arguements because I like to have ammo to fire back at people.
*I try not to make myself look like an idiot (most of the time, sometimes you just can't help it)
*I love C!!!!! I'm probably going to get better a C++. When my friends were going to do game development, it had to be in C. IMHO any real developer that develops real software is using C/C++ (no using Director isn't real programming)
Yes Yes Yes I am a Technoid now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
151 Woo Hoo!!!!!
-
Look, we've established we have differences of opinion on many things, I think it's time to leave the guy alone and let him get on with the important things. Like getting VB.net running on his OS4 enabled Gamecube. Umkay?
-
Piru wrote:
My final contribution to this invaluable thread:
sums it up pretty good (http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.phpi/463c5922/arguing.jpg?cb=1115204527)
Ooooooh, tactless.... *wince*
-
justthatgood wrote:
Yes Yes Yes I am a Technoid now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
151 Woo Hoo!!!!!
That post number crawls up quite slowly. The only actions that seem to affect it are forumn posts and picture comment posts. Man wouldnt it be sweet if pm's counted against your post score. The only way i'm aware of to quickly increase the count is to post a comment on every pic in the images section. that would bring you up +1700 with a little effort.
-
I like what lou_dias likes...
Simply because it annoys you all, ya 'feckers!
-
Hyperspeed wrote:
I like what lou_dias likes...
Simply because it annoys you all, ya 'feckers!
So that means you like men?
-
I may be one of the strange ones here. I'd like to see a hardcore blend of c and basic. Ive many times set out to impliment this, but never finished up on it. Why not have a basic that has pointers as a datatype?
-
koaftder wrote:
I may be one of the strange ones here. I'd like to see a hardcore blend of c and basic. Ive many times set out to impliment this, but never finished up on it. Why not have a basic that has pointers as a datatype?
Blitz basic isn't too far off. It certainly has structures, lists etc. It also has a pointer type if I am not mistaken.
-
uncharted wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Nor is it the place to ask for an Amiga OS on Nintendo hardware... But I did it anyway.
What is interesting is that some who don't agree have also not ever used Visual Studio...atleast I've used C/C++.
So after 32 pages of comments we've established that:-
*You are a fanatical Nintendo fanboy
*You won't listen to arguments presented to you
*You like to spout on about things you don't know/understand
*And you're a shyte programmer.
Groovy!
Well, your sig says all we need to know about you.
-
koaftder wrote:
I may be one of the strange ones here. I'd like to see a hardcore blend of c and basic. Ive many times set out to impliment this, but never finished up on it. Why not have a basic that has pointers as a datatype?
If you knew anything about VB.net, you'd realize it is a fully object-oriented language. You can define parameters in function calls as being passed by reference or by value. You can create structures as well as classes. Their is inheritance and polymorphism. It's event-driven.
It's excellent. But because I don't like C, I'm a shyte programmer as 'unchated' likes to point out. Maybe it's just that I've had a taste of everything already and have come to realize that MICROSOFT actually made an EXCELLENT product and that some of you zealots/geeks are too proud to admit that.
FYI, alot of linux programmers use Visual Studio's IDE to write the code then compile it on their native platform's compiler.
-
If you knew anything about VB.net, you'd realize it is a fully object-oriented language. You can define parameters in function calls as being passed by reference or by value. You can create structures as well as classes. Their is inheritance and polymorphism. It's event-driven.
You got that right. Ive spent soooo much time in vb6 dealing with bizareness with their oo stuff half implimented. 6 was strange, they never got the oo right. vb.net definately put the argument of vb not doing oo right to rest.
It's excellent. But because I don't like C, I'm a shyte programmer as 'unchated' likes to point out. Maybe it's just that I've had a taste of everything already and have come to realize that MICROSOFT actually made an EXCELLENT product and that some of you zealots/geeks are too proud to admit that.
They did make a top notch suite there. As much as us geeks hate to admit it, MS has put out a lot of really great stuff, and fostored a hell of a lot of innovation.
What makes a good programmer is not the language he programs in, but instead the discipline the programmer demonstrates, and that extends to any language.
[/quote]
FYI, alot of linux programmers use Visual Studio's IDE to write the code then compile it on their native platform's compiler.
yup i was in that boat for quite a while. But msvc doesnt put together a skeleton for your make files. kDevelop does this nice and proper, and a whole lot more, so i've moved over to that for the linux platform.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, your sig says all we need to know about you.
Well, it's a hell of a lot shorter than 30-odd pages of comments ;-)
-
Now, now... let's all have a cup of tea and be gentlemanly!
:-D
I'd like to get into programming on Amiga, would it be best to start with something like Blitz Basic 2 or go head first into Storm-C?
I've seen a few applications made with Blitz so I'm assuming it's not just for games (Didn't they make Worms and Super Skidmarks with it?).
I'm assuming you can only begin to learn Assembly when you're a certified recluse...
-
Hyperspeed wrote:
Now, now... let's all have a cup of tea and be gentlemanly!
:-D
I'd like to get into programming on Amiga, would it be best to start with something like Blitz Basic 2 or go head first into Storm-C?
I've seen a few applications made with Blitz so I'm assuming it's not just for games (Didn't they make Worms and Super Skidmarks with it?).
I'm assuming you can only begin to learn Assembly when you're a certified recluse...
f the basic. Go for a c compiler. You will want the efficiency of a c compiler on this platform being that resources are so limited. C also gives you the advantage to bang on the hardware wiht inline assembler as well, if you so choose.
Personaly, all ive used on amiga was lattice c compiler, and that hardcore lacked on libs.
-
Hyperspeed wrote:
Now, now... let's all have a cup of tea and be gentlemanly!
:-D
I'd like to get into programming on Amiga, would it be best to start with something like Blitz Basic 2 or go head first into Storm-C?
I've seen a few applications made with Blitz so I'm assuming it's not just for games (Didn't they make Worms and Super Skidmarks with it?).
I'm assuming you can only begin to learn Assembly when you're a certified recluse...
Or... You can start smoking crack, at that point youve written what ever your delusions have decided you have written, what could be better than that? Amiga + crack pipe + crack = uberhardcore awsome software
-
Hyperspeed wrote:
I'd like to get into programming on Amiga, would it be best to start with something like Blitz Basic 2 or go head first into Storm-C?
I've seen a few applications made with Blitz so I'm assuming it's not just for games (Didn't they make Worms and Super Skidmarks with it?).
Blitz does have functions for intuition stuff (IIRC one set for 1.x type GUI, and one for 2.x+ Gadtools). You can write pretty much anything in Blitz. There is also a module that will allow you use MUI.
BlackIRC is an application that comes to mind that was written in Blitz.
Yes both Worms and Skidmarks were written in Blitz, although IIRC Skidmarks also used Assembly in places. It was Blitz (and the promise of being able to write a game as great as Worms) that got me into Amigas in the first place.
The main problem with Blitz though (at least as far as Blitz 2.1 - I haven't tried the AmiBlitz releases) is that isn't as stable as it could be. I've seen many a guru in my time programming in Blitz. The GUI stuff was particularly unstable. They had this amazing little demo program that you could use to build GUI code visually, but it would crash like mad.
I'm assuming you can only begin to learn Assembly when you're a certified recluse...
Hehe. I thought that too, but when it actually came to it, it isn't as bad as I thought. It requires a shift in your way of thinking. That said I wouldn't like to have to write something substantial to it.
Big time respect to all those who used to write huge games and apps in it.
-
There are 2x PD games on Aminet that, if you have a friend handy, are the most addictive Bomberman/Gauntlet style games around:
http://de.aminet.net/aminetbin/find?brutal+homicide
They're both coded in Assembly and how they managed this I'll never know because the complexity of the weapons, sounds and arenas is quite impressive.
When it comes to apps I've always thought TurboPrint 7 was badass and that was assembly. However I do appreciate that the more complex you get the more visual your programming language needs to be. I tried Visual Basic at a college years ago and liked the way GUIs could be built up like a flat-pack Ikea wardrobe.
:-D
-
koaftder wrote:
yup i was in that boat for quite a while. But msvc doesnt put together a skeleton for your make files. kDevelop does this nice and proper, and a whole lot more, so i've moved over to that for the linux platform.
I tried using Eclipse a couple of times for JAVA and PHP. The problem I have with JAVA and C/C++ IDE's is that I just want to go in a do a "Hello world." and they make you spend a half hour configuring your project. I just want to start typing and then hit Compile & Run!
...ah the beauty of VB...
-
lou_dias wrote:
I tried using Eclipse a couple of times for JAVA and PHP. The problem I have with JAVA and C/C++ IDE's is that I just want to go in a do a "Hello world." and they make you spend a half hour configuring your project. I just want to start typing and then hit Compile & Run!
...ah the beauty of VB...
That is really attributed to Visual Studio, not VB. You can just as easily make and run a VC++, VC++ .NET, C#, etc. "Hello World" in about 30 seconds going through the same project wizard.
-
I tried using Eclipse a couple of times for JAVA and PHP. The problem I have with JAVA and C/C++ IDE's is that I just want to go in a do a "Hello world." and they make you spend a half hour configuring your project. I just want to start typing and then hit Compile & Run!
...ah the beauty of VB...
File>New Project>C++ Tool>
Double click main.cpp
Type in your hello world.
Click compile&run.
...ah, the beauty of XCode...
Last time I checked it wasn't any more complicated in VC++, either.
-
AmiGR wrote:
I tried using Eclipse a couple of times for JAVA and PHP. The problem I have with JAVA and C/C++ IDE's is that I just want to go in a do a "Hello world." and they make you spend a half hour configuring your project. I just want to start typing and then hit Compile & Run!
...ah the beauty of VB...
File>New Project>C++ Tool>
Double click main.cpp
Type in your hello world.
Click compile&run.
...ah, the beauty of XCode...
Last time I checked it wasn't any more complicated in VC++, either.
I don't own a Mac.
-
adolescent wrote:
That is really attributed to Visual Studio, not VB. You can just as easily make and run a VC++, VC++ .NET, C#, etc. "Hello World" in about 30 seconds going through the same project wizard.
Other than setting up the project folder and creating the install package, I don't use a wizard for anything. Once in a while I'll use one to create a simple data entry form with alot of fields from an SQL table...but it never remains a simple data entry form.
-
Not until our internet 2.0 I guess :lol:
-
Just a post to get off the last number.
(not that I am superstitious or anything)
-
Developers has their favorite environment and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it unless mandated to change it by a superior or sheer curiosity.
Yes, and the developers of C made their decisions based on what they felt was usable, not because they didn't have the memory to do it the way you like it.
If C sucks, why do so many languages do things the C way? Visual Basic has an awful lot of C in it, if you know anything about the original BASIC language. Almost all BASICs these days are not actually BASIC.
Waccoon, you can run your mouth all you want. So because I had 2 classes in C/C++ some 15 years ago, I'm supposed to remember every nuance?
First of all, you should remember basic things like operators. Second, you need to know the basics if you're going to say that something sucks. Third, you're sitting in front of the world's largest electronic library, so it takes minimal effort to look-up things you've forgotten.
Because they keep expecting me to change it as if I should worship the keyboard they type on.
More like, when you provide an example to show that C sucks, you use poorly formatted code. Brackets on the wrong line, for example, and using brackets when you don't need them. Your constant exaggeration and misrepresentation is what annoys people. You cover it up by saying, "I only took 2 classes 15 years ago."
Well, rip out your old books and have another look. But then, you don't need C, which is precisely why you need to complain about it.
Why do I complain about inconsistencies in PHP? Because I need to maintain code written in PHP, and would like to see some improvements in the near future. Why don't I go around telling people VB sucks? Because while I have used it in the past, I don't need it today.
-
I once asked on a thread how it would be possible to create a website with an active database linked to it, so that users could click on MUI style column sorters to arrange fields in order (like when you click price on eBay and they go in highest or cheapest order).
I was told AmiSQL can do this but I seem to have PHP in my mind.
What's the relation between PHP, Apache, SQL and CGI scripts? And what is https, XML and CSS?
-
Gentlemen, I think I haved solved the problem. I have irrefutable data that proves lou_dias is right (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=VB+sucks&word2=C+sucks). With this shocking revelation in front of me, I am forced to concede that further studies in computer science are completely pointless since they are based in C++ at my institution. I will henceforth send a letter to the dean recommending a wholesale switch to VB.NET. For great justice!
I'm glad I could finally put this argument to rest. Good day to all, and see you on the MSDN forums!
-
Failure wrote:
Gentlemen, I think I haved solved the problem. I have irrefutable data that proves lou_dias is right (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=VB+sucks&word2=C+sucks). With this shocking revelation in front of me, I am forced to concede that further studies in computer science are completely pointless since they are based in C++ at my institution. I will henceforth send a letter to the dean recommending a wholesale switch to VB.NET. For great justice!
I'm glad I could finally put this argument to rest. Good day to all, and see you on the MSDN forums!
omg... This is terrible news! I'm going to have to port QEMU over to the 8052 micro so i'll be able to run xp and .net framework. I'll have to interface an ide harddrive to the 8052 and write some virtual memory routines....
-
Sorry, you forgot the quotes which made quite a difference.
"VB sucks" vs. "C sucks" (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22VB+sucks%22&word2=%22C+sucks%22)
Thank goodness, the future of computer science is now secure. :-D
-
adolescent wrote:
Sorry, you forgot the quotes which made quite a difference.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Quotes are useless crap which take up space in source code files. I suppose you'll be wanting to throw semicolons and braces in there too? My implementation is much cleaner and easy to read, whereas your implementation leads to confusion.
My point remains uncontested!
:lol:
-
Failure wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Sorry, you forgot the quotes which made quite a difference.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Quotes are useless crap which take up space in source code files. I suppose you'll be wanting to throw semicolons and braces in there too? My implementation is much cleaner and easy to read, whereas your implementation leads to confusion.
My point remains uncontested!
:lol:
and you need that extra space in your source files too when half of your statements look like:
blah = system.IO.omg.wtf.somewhereinhereforsure.openfile
-
koaftder wrote:
Failure wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Sorry, you forgot the quotes which made quite a difference.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Quotes are useless crap which take up space in source code files. I suppose you'll be wanting to throw semicolons and braces in there too? My implementation is much cleaner and easy to read, whereas your implementation leads to confusion.
My point remains uncontested!
:lol:
and you need that extra space in your source files too when half of your statements look like:
blah = system.IO.omg.wtf.somewhereinhereforsure.openfile
if you hade put a:
imports System.IO.omg.wtf.somwhereinhereforsure
at the top of the module, you could have just typeD:
blah = openfile
from then on and any other function contained withing the library "System.IO.omg.wtf.somwhereinhereforsure" :P
-
@Waccoon
My poorly formatted code was because I didn't specify it as code so the tabs weren't processed by this PHP-based (C for the web) forum.
char keystroke = getch();
switch( keystroke ) {
case 'a':
case 'b':
case 'c':
case 'd':
KeyABCDPressed();
break;
case 'e':
KeyEPressed();
break;
default:
UnknownKeyPressed();
break;
}
vs. VB's
Dim keystroke as char = getch()
Select Case keystoke
Case "a", "b", "c", "d"
KeyABCDPressed()
Case "e"
KeyEPressed()
Case Else
UnknownKeyPressed()
End Select
Just another simple example of why C is ugly and not as simple to read... Did I format it to your acceptable levels? Oh I hope I did. :crazy:
-
@lou
It's all preference. You like BASIC, everyone else likes C. You say C sucks, everyone else says BASIC sucks. Get it?
-
My poorly formatted code was because I didn't specify it as code so the tabs weren't processed by this PHP-based (C for the web) forum.
It was also because you intentionally put brackets in the wrong places. You missed that part.
BTW, BBcode is a standard applicable to all languages, not just PHP. Why point out that this forum is written using "C for the web" when your inability to use BBcode is to blame?
And, yes, the switch construct is a much better example. Probably the best example, as everyone hates writing all those breaks. However, if you need a fall-through structure, VB doesn't support that. You have to write the same code several times over. I use fall-through a lot to handle version control.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Just another simple example of why C is ugly and not as simple to read... Did I format it to your acceptable levels? Oh I hope I did. :crazy:
Why did you bother to do this? We all know your oppinion, most of us do not agree with it. C was not designed to cator to a programmer of your skill level.
-
koaftder wrote:
Why did you bother to do this? We all know your oppinion, most of us do not agree with it. C was not designed to cator to a programmer of your skill level.
Because Waccoon is a pest. Hence I wrote "@Waccoon". I never said not liking C had to do with anything about skill-level just that it's prone to more logic errors that aren't as easy to find due to it's inherent fugliness...
Now then...
@Waccoon
How did I put brackets in the wrong places if that was all perfectly legal C? You're reaching again.
-
adolescent wrote:
@lou
It's all preference. You like BASIC, everyone else likes C. You say C sucks, everyone else says BASIC sucks. Get it?
LOL
everyone else
"Everyone in this forum" - yes. Well, when it comes to "real" Amiga programming, there isn't much of a choice but to program in C. For the rest of the world - C sucks.
-
lou_dias wrote:
@Waccoon
My poorly formatted code was because I didn't specify it as code so the tabs weren't processed by this PHP-based (C for the web) forum.
char keystroke = getch();
switch( keystroke ) {
case 'a':
case 'b':
case 'c':
case 'd':
KeyABCDPressed();
break;
case 'e':
KeyEPressed();
break;
default:
UnknownKeyPressed();
break;
}
vs. VB's
Dim keystroke as char = getch()
Select Case keystoke
Case "a", "b", "c", "d"
KeyABCDPressed()
Case "e"
KeyEPressed()
Case Else
UnknownKeyPressed()
End Select
Personally I don't think the VB one is easier to read. For a start, why can't it just be "keystroke as char = getch()" and why does it have to be "Select Case keystroke" and not just "Select keystroke" ? Why "Case Else" instead of just "Else" ? That would be even easier, wouldn't it? Then you think, "why do I even need this 'as' in keystroke as char = getch()?", when "char keystroke = getch()" is even easier still...
The only nice thing I see in the VB script is the case range concatenation, which saves space. Oh but wait, it was exactly the space saving leading to compressed up gnarly looking code on terminals you were lambasting C for, wasn't it? :-P
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Why did you bother to do this? We all know your oppinion, most of us do not agree with it. C was not designed to cator to a programmer of your skill level.
Because Waccoon is a pest. Hence I wrote "@Waccoon". I never said not liking C had to do with anything about skill-level just that it's prone to more logic errors that aren't as easy to find due to it's inherent fugliness...
Now then...
@Waccoon
How did I put brackets in the wrong places if that was all perfectly legal C? You're reaching again.
All i'm saying is that nobody cares... This is the kind of thread that after reading, it's quite possible for one to know less than they did before they started reading it.
-
koaftder wrote:
All i'm saying is that nobody cares... This is the kind of thread that after reading, it's quite possible for one to know less than they did before they started reading it.
Yes and all I'm saying is that he/it repeatedly goes out of his way to critic anything I say and take me out of context and twist what I was really trying to say in another direction. Hence, I will post simply to spite him.
PS,
Reading this thread is OPTIONAL...so is posting in it.
-
"Everyone in this forum" - yes. Well, when it comes to "real" Amiga programming, there isn't much of a choice but to program in C. For the rest of the world - C sucks.
When it comes to to real programming there is no choice but C, full stop.
For the real world BASIC is a little noddy language for people who have learning difficulties.
-
mdma wrote:
"Everyone in this forum" - yes. Well, when it comes to "real" Amiga programming, there isn't much of a choice but to program in C. For the rest of the world - C sucks.
When it comes to to real programming there is no choice but C, full stop.
For the real world BASIC is a little noddy language for people who have learning difficulties.
I'm assuming you mean as opposed to fake programming...
That or you fall into the category of never experiencing .NET.
-
by koaftder:
All i'm saying is that nobody cares... This is the kind of thread that after reading, it's quite possible for one to know less than they did before they started reading it.
Yeah, but the pocket-protector rattling is almost entertaining.
Keep it up fellas!
-
coldfish wrote:
by koaftder:
All i'm saying is that nobody cares... This is the kind of thread that after reading, it's quite possible for one to know less than they did before they started reading it.
Yeah, but the pocket-protector rattling is almost entertaining.
Keep it up fellas!
LOL, exactly my point about the only people that prefer C! :lol:
-
But Geeks rock though.
And I'm still getting a XBox 360 over a Revolution, unless they give me one for FREE.
-
justthatgood wrote:
But Geeks rock though.
And I'm still getting a XBox 360 over a Revolution, unless they give me one for FREE.
You'll change your mind though when Nintendo bring out the greatest game ever written by Lou himself in VB.NET :lol:
-
uncharted wrote:
justthatgood wrote:
But Geeks rock though.
And I'm still getting a XBox 360 over a Revolution, unless they give me one for FREE.
You'll change your mind though when Nintendo bring out the greatest game ever written by Lou himself in VB.NET :lol:
Well, since MS has produced MAC software they must have a PPC compiler for Visual Studio, so it's not out of the question...infact, since they use Visual Studio to make 360 games which uses a PPC-based cpu, it's entirely possible, you know, once you pay me to do it. :-P
-
lou_dias wrote:
uncharted wrote:
justthatgood wrote:
But Geeks rock though.
And I'm still getting a XBox 360 over a Revolution, unless they give me one for FREE.
You'll change your mind though when Nintendo bring out the greatest game ever written by Lou himself in VB.NET :lol:
Well, since MS has produced MAC software they must have a PPC compiler for Visual Studio, so it's not out of the question...infact, since they use Visual Studio to make 360 games which uses a PPC-based cpu, it's entirely possible, you know, once you pay me to do it. :-P
hmmm So, since MS has written software for macs, which have a ppc in all but the new ones, i guess you are going to conclude that windows should run on the ppc macintosh? Kind of like if linux can run on the gamecube it should be trivial to run AOS4 on it?
If microsoft can write software for mac then Visual Studio must be able to compile for mac!
Compiling sh*t for one platform to another. Porting os's and crap, it's not hard, just flip some flags and let 'er rip. We are not talking about something difficult here, like writing code in c, this isnt rocket science.
I was talking to lou_dias the other day on the phone. Quote:
Lou_Dias:
Elly D up in tha hizzouse biotch. Yo, represent, i writes all muh boot loader code in vee bee dot net muthafuck4. Malloc, ptthhh, programma please, my junk is tight managed, this is 06 brutha.
Koaftder:
Hows the .net port of aros going?
Lou_Dias:
Tizznight brutha, true dat. Its pimping around the cut up in the piece. With my gold chains and msdn account nothing can stop a killa like me. I keep soldiering along each and every day. So far ive ganked a desktop snapshot of somebodys a1200 setup from a.org and got it as the background bitmap in an mdi app on vb.net. We are goin after a top down design shizzy. We is gonna start off by ripping off the UI, then dig down into the internals, so ive been spending most of my time in mspaint. My homedog jlf65 is workin on pizzorting mono over to aros, so this jank is definately gonna happen. I guess you could say weez hardcore keeping it on the reel.
-
That was actually funny. Is your coding as creative? Maybe you should spend more time writing a "gangsta" movie-script instead of following a thread in which you truly will never gain any value from.
-
Maybe Apple ditched PPC too soon...
http://news.com.com/IBM+touts+new+chipmaking+method/2100-1006_3-6035948.html?tag=nefd.hed
-
lou_dias wrote:
mdma wrote:
"Everyone in this forum" - yes. Well, when it comes to "real" Amiga programming, there isn't much of a choice but to program in C. For the rest of the world - C sucks.
When it comes to to real programming there is no choice but C, full stop.
For the real world BASIC is a little noddy language for people who have learning difficulties.
I'm assuming you mean as opposed to fake programming...
That or you fall into the category of never experiencing .NET.
Having been a bedroom coder for approx 8 years, then a professional coder for 10 years, and for the past 2 years a college lecturer in programming, I think I can quite confidently claim to know what I am talking about.
I assume from your recent diatribes that by ".NET" you are actually referring to the current release of the language Visual Basic, rather than the web services platform from Microsoft.
Unfortunately for me, I have had the misfortune to use it. I'd rather have to go back to using EDIT.COM & TASM/TLINK than to have to use it again.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, since MS has produced MAC software they must have a PPC compiler for Visual Studio, so it's not out of the question...infact, since they use Visual Studio to make 360 games which uses a PPC-based cpu, it's entirely possible, you know, once you pay me to do it. :-P
The Xbox 360 SDK, just like the original Xbox SDK, supports only Visual C++. There is no VB, .NET, framework, CLR, etc. for the Xbox 360 (and why would there be?).
-
koaftder wrote:
Lou_Dias:
Elly D up in tha hizzouse biotch. Yo, represent, i writes all muh boot loader code in vee bee dot net muthafuck4. Malloc, ptthhh, programma please, my junk is tight managed, this is 06 brutha.
vee bee dot net muthafuck4! :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
mdma wrote:
I assume from your recent diatribes that by ".NET" you are actually referring to the current release of the language Visual Basic, rather than the web services platform from Microsoft.
Unfortunately for me, I have had the misfortune to use it. I'd rather have to go back to using EDIT.COM & TASM/TLINK than to have to use it again.
If you have to ask/assume, I still question your experience with it. The "Web" aspect of it is ASP.NET, never to be confused with VB.NET. While Visual Studio.Net is the IDE, the languages and features it supports are varied. Creating "web forms" using ASP.Net his a whole different experience than application development. They could never be confused so you would never have to assume when someone talks about VB.NET...
-
lou_dias wrote:
mdma wrote:
I assume from your recent diatribes that by ".NET" you are actually referring to the current release of the language Visual Basic, rather than the web services platform from Microsoft.
Unfortunately for me, I have had the misfortune to use it. I'd rather have to go back to using EDIT.COM & TASM/TLINK than to have to use it again.
If you have to ask/assume, I still question your experience with it. The "Web" aspect of it is ASP.NET, never to be confused with VB.NET. While Visual Studio.Net is the IDE, the languages and features it supports are varied. Creating "web forms" using ASP.Net his a whole different experience than application development. They could never be confused so you would never have to assume when someone talks about VB.NET...
Actually its all really easy to confuse. In fact, when all this .Net stuff came into being, microsofts markiting department plastered .Net all over everything. For a good 2 years nobody even knew what i all really ment. Lots of people still dont know or care. After years of it being around, most people have discovered that it's really .VendorLockin and .NotPortable and in 10-15 years it will most likely become .abondoned for something .new
-
Ok, after pages of this crap I am going to be as fair and objective as I can.
As a development IDE, Visual Studio is a good product. As an extension, ".net" is pretty much meaningless as can be seen in the last two posts.
As a language, VB, like all BASIC derivatives, is a pretty much an ugly pile of sh*te that exists soley for less experienced developers to work in all the time, or for more experienced developers to work in when they have no time, or when the latter class of developers are forced to share development with the former class of developers (lowest common denominator rule).
Absolutely every argument I've seen so far regarding VB's superiority *as a language* over C/C++ et al has done nothing but absolutely cement this viewpoint. I have seen just one syntactical feature so far presented (case range concatenation) which can be demonstrated to be an advantage and ironically it must be rejected on the very grounds presented by our erstwhile VB advocate. That is to say, by making the VB source more compact (requiring less lines etc) it does one of the very things he uses in the case against C like languages.
The prosecution rests.
:-P
-
Karlos wrote:
Absolutely every argument I've seen so far regarding VB's superiority *as a language* over C/C++ et al has done nothing but absolutely cement this viewpoint. I have seen just one syntactical feature so far presented (case range concatenation) which can be demonstrated to be an advantage and ironically it must be rejected on the very grounds presented by our erstwhile VB advocate. That is to say, by making the VB source more compact (requiring less lines etc) it does one of the very things he uses in the case against C like languages.
The prosecution rests.
:-P
Yes, ignore the fact that it uses less lines AND is easier to read...infact the line could have been written:
Case "a" To "d"
and saved even more typing and still made it extremely "logic-apparent".
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net. But as is typical of this forum, proof is only expected from the "opinion" in the minority despite the actual truth.
-
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
An operating system kernel.
-
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
Firmware for 8051 @ pic micros. Include an 8bit micro of your choosing. Bios code. Boot loader code. interrupt service routines.
But thats just things that have to be small and run on the hardware. Suppose i was writing a product, and one of the requirements was that it run on both a macintosh and windows. Ohno! Guess i cant pick .Net for that one.
Again, right f'n tool for the job. Your vb.net prong doesnt fit in every project hole, get over it.
-
koaftder wrote:
Actually its all really easy to confuse. In fact, when all this .Net stuff came into being, microsofts markiting department plastered .Net all over everything. For a good 2 years nobody even knew what i all really ment. Lots of people still dont know or care. After years of it being around, most people have discovered that it's really .VendorLockin and .NotPortable and in 10-15 years it will most likely become .abondoned for something .new
Actually, unlike VB 6.0, Vb.Net's code files (source code) makes reverse-engineering a compiler for an alternate platform ALOT easier. Every property involved in creating forms and controls is exposed in the source code. It would just be a matter of creating [insert platform of choice] libraries functionally equivalent to MS's .Net Runtime libraries and a compiler.
-
lou_dias wrote:
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
I dunno, how many OS kernels and core services are written in VB.net compared to those in C?
Or how about writing a graphics API for cross platform delivery?
Or how about simply writing stuff for a platform other than Windows?
-
koaftder wrote:
Firmware for 8051 @ pic micros. Include an 8bit micro of your choosing. Bios code. Boot loader code. interrupt service routines.
But thats just things that have to be small and run on the hardware. Suppose i was writing a product, and one of the requirements was that it run on both a macintosh and windows. Ohno! Guess i cant pick .Net for that one.
Again, right f'n tool for the job. Your vb.net prong doesnt fit in every project hole, get over it.
I've known that but that's only because MS chooses to compile to an intermediate language that is executed by a Common Language Runtime executable that runs on Windows and not independent of it. "Don't hate the player, hate the game."...as they say...
What I want to know is why "C programmers" think they are smarter instead of realizing that either they have ALOT more patience or are suckers for punishment? When will they get over that?
-
lou_dias wrote:
What I want to know is why "C programmers" think they are smarter instead of realizing that either they have ALOT more patience or are suckers for punishment? When will they get over that?
I'd like to know why you think that is a valid observation? There is nothing hard about developing software in C/C++. If you can develop in one high level language, you can do it in just about any. It's just a matter of learning the syntax, support services you require and any new paradigms. C/C++ come with an unrivalled level of support. You can find example source and library code for just about anything.
On the contrary, writing something in a language that is not remotely supported outside of MS domain to be the thankless task, unless of course that is as broad as your imagination goes.
-
Karlos wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
I dunno, how many OS kernels and core services are written in VB.net compared to those in C?
Or how about writing a graphics API for cross platform delivery?
Or how about simply writing stuff for a platform other than Windows?
I found this (http://www.purebasic.com/) BASIC, which is more useful than VB. Portable to 4 platforms.
Come on Lou, write us an OS in BASIC. With all those RAD features at your fingertips you should be ready to demo a prototype in no time at all.
-
Karlos wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
I dunno, how many OS kernels and core services are written in VB.net compared to those in C?
Or how about writing a graphics API for cross platform delivery?
Or how about simply writing stuff for a platform other than Windows?
Well, when VB.net has been around for 40 years, we can answer that question a bit better. Like I said, .net source code is easily ported to other platforms because of it's open-ness. It's one thing I give MS credit for and I'm really not a big fan of MS as a hole or I'd be touting the 360 as the bst solution for a PPC Amiga. I'm just giving credit where credit is due (for once, when it comes to MS, that is).
Believe me, I'm not touting VB.Net because I love MS, if you've read the entire thread, you'd know that I am no MS fanboy. I'm just saying that VB.net is a great platform from a developer's point of view.
Why not program for other platforms? Because I went with the platform that gave me the best chance of making me money. I could be a hobbiest coder for other platforms but I don't have the time or enthusiasm of youth to do that. When I am not working, I am managing a small side business and rental property.
I would like to see the Amiga platform succeed. That's why I proposed a "cheap" platform that anyone can afford to get OS 4 off the ground.
Update 4 of OS 4 was just released? Has that expanded the market for the platform? No, it's only for current owners of a board that is not in development and offers negative growth as the hardware deteriorates over time. Everthing else (Ack, Olgeil, PowerVixxen) is so far vaporware.
I proposed targeting a platform that has a low cost and extremely high availability and is uniform. [Gamecube] According to Nintendo, the Revolution is going to be 100% HARDWARE compatible with the GC. There is the upgrade path.
JLF65, my "homeboy" who I never met before this thread and is serious in his endeavor, is the only one with the technical ability AND desire to attempt to make this happen. I've done my part by securing some of the tools required in doing this. I've stocked up on SD Geckos and 5" disc capable replacement cases and gamebit screw drivers. I've offered a deal to any Amigan to sell those at almost cost.
I've sold to a couple of people on this forum but only JLF65 is actually trying to develop anything.
The way things are looking, it seems that AROS is the future of Amiga. In the meantime, I'll pay the bills with Windows.
-
Clash of the titans
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/images/396x222/lou_andy.jpg)
lou: Bjarne, it's time to think of something new, you know.
bjarne: Yeah, I know.
lou: Listen Bjarne, I think that you should stop this C++ cuffuffle! VB is the one for you to go on with..
bjarne: I don't want it!
-
-
mdma wrote:
I found this (http://www.purebasic.com/) BASIC, which is more useful than VB. Portable to 4 platforms.
Come on Lou, write us an OS in BASIC. With all those RAD features at your fingertips you should be ready to demo a prototype in no time at all.
I think that's great. It doesn't mention being object-oriented though.
If you read my last post, and many before that, you already know why I will never write an OS. I've never claimed to be an expert in such a thing. I've never put myself on a pedastal in the face of all the "credible experts" (I love keyboard warriors) that like to diss me. Funny, with that link you counter some of the things your fellow BASIC-antagonists have been trying to drive down my throat.
Yes, PureBASIC is interesting, but unless my boss pays me to code in it, I won't be. It's simple economics that some people here will never understand until they get older.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Yes, PureBASIC is interesting, but unless my boss pays me to code in it, I won't be. It's simple economics that some people here will never understand until they get older.
LOL! I get paid to develop stuff in PHP/MySQL/Javascript/Java etc. That doesn't mean I go around extolling how great they are over all other languages and making brash claims that they can do anything worth doing. I recognise the difference between tools suitable for different purposes.
VB has its place. It's a handy RAD tool for quick and dirty programs. C has its place too, it's a massively portable language suitable for all levels of development.
Syntactically there is absolutely next to nothing that can touch C. I'm sorry you can't appreciate that but if you look at how many languages have adopted C's style of syntax over BASIC, you will be forced to conclude that they all just are too snobby and up themselves for your keyword rich language :-D
-
Karlos wrote:
keyword rich language :-D
So because a language replaces things like for(){} with For/Next, it's keyword rich? ...and a compiler almost cares...
The defense rests...
-
lou_dias wrote:
Karlos wrote:
rich language :-D
So because a language replaces things like for(){} with For/Next, it's keyword rich?
The defense rests...
clearly lou_dias you have no clue. AMOS is the greatest programming language in the world. and nothing else can touch it.
-
GadgetMaster wrote:
clearly lou_dias you have no clue. AMOS is the greatest programming language in the world. and nothing else can touch it.
LOL, Blitz is the shiznit!
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Actually its all really easy to confuse. In fact, when all this .Net stuff came into being, microsofts markiting department plastered .Net all over everything. For a good 2 years nobody even knew what i all really ment. Lots of people still dont know or care. After years of it being around, most people have discovered that it's really .VendorLockin and .NotPortable and in 10-15 years it will most likely become .abondoned for something .new
Actually, unlike VB 6.0, Vb.Net's code files (source code) makes reverse-engineering a compiler for an alternate platform ALOT easier. Every property involved in creating forms and controls is exposed in the source code. It would just be a matter of creating [insert platform of choice] libraries functionally equivalent to MS's .Net Runtime libraries and a compiler.
/me smacks forehead. Man why didnt i think of that. VB.Net is portable, as in, i'm free to reverse engineer .Net framework and reimpliment it on another platform. Duh, and it would be easy too, after all, it's just a bunch of function calls id have to re impliment. Its not like it would hard like writing code in c. It's all so clear and simple now.
Just switch out the functions from .Net code to local sys libs and blam compile.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Karlos wrote:
keyword rich language :-D
So because a language replaces things like for(){} with For/Next, it's keyword rich? ...and a compiler almost cares...
The defense rests...
Hey, I didn't make C syntax more popular and easier to read than basic syntax. It just is :-P
-
/*
# In the beginning God created the cpu and the opcode.
# And the coder was without sense, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the coder. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the coder.
# And God said, Let there be C, and there was.....
*/
#include
int main (void) {
printf("Hello World \n");
}
:-P
-
lou_dias wrote:
Actually, unlike VB 6.0, Vb.Net's code files (source code) makes reverse-engineering a compiler for an alternate platform ALOT easier. Every property involved in creating forms and controls is exposed in the source code. It would just be a matter of creating [insert platform of choice] libraries functionally equivalent to MS's .Net Runtime libraries and a compiler.
Sure the IL is readable (unless you run it through a good obfuscator which breaks ILDASM).
But, it's the mscorelib that needs to be reverse engineered. And, that's not a simple task of changing API call for API call. You could probably learn a lot from the documentation, reflection, etc. but making a full replacement is not going to be easy.
(Also, VB.net code still mysteriously calls the old vb libraries, mainly for backwards compatibility... so you'd have to reverse that too)
-
lou_dias wrote:
A better counter-point would be to show me something that can only be done in C and not VB.Net.
Ok. (I'll stick to Windows, since you already said you weren't interested in cross compatibility)
Low level OS control, system calls*, port access, memory management, use inline assembly, make fast running programs, etc.
Note:
Yes, I know you can DllImport just about any dll. But, not all API calls are exposed in the system dlls. So, to write a wrapper you'd have to use VC++!
-
adolescent wrote:
Low level OS control, system calls*, port access, memory management, use inline assembly, make fast running programs, etc.
All the old 6.0 WinAPI calls still work. You do when defining a structure have to use the new method but all api calls still work. I communicate with COM and LPT ports both through an ActiveX wrapper and directly using some code I found on MSDN:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;823179
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Low level OS control, system calls*, port access, memory management, use inline assembly, make fast running programs, etc.
All the old 6.0 WinAPI calls still work. You do when defining a structure have to use the new method but all api calls still work. I communicate with COM and LPT ports both through an ActiveX wrapper and directly using some code I found on MSDN:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;823179
Lou, I teach programming at college level.
VB is taught to the young kids that aren't so bright and just barely managed the grades to get innto college. It used to be Pascal.
Java is taught to the next level up. It used to be C and assembly (68k and x86).
C++ and assembly is taught at the highest intelligence level for the most complex assignments.
What does this say to you?
-
lou_dias wrote:
All the old 6.0 WinAPI calls still work. You do when defining a structure have to use the new method but all api calls still work. I communicate with COM and LPT ports both through an ActiveX wrapper and directly using some code I found on MSDN:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;823179
And what about stuff that isn't in the API?
For ports, as I said and you've shown, it's possible with a wrapper or system library access. With this you're limited to what dll is available, and wether the method is available that does what you want, and is externally accessible.
How about this (it's fairly common to need this information); Get CPU information, speed, model, manufacturer, stepping, etc. using just VB code.
-
@mdma
In the US, VB is taught to CIS students.
CS students don't get the easy way out. (Although, my school recently cancelled their last remaining assembly course. I always wanted to get back there and take it but I had a bad experience with the professor in a previous calculus class.)
-
adolescent wrote:
@mdma
In the US, VB is taught to CIS students.
CS students don't get the easy way out. (Although, my school recently cancelled their last remaining assembly course. I always wanted to get back there and take it but I had a bad experience with the professor in a previous calculus class.)
That's a shame, not that there is much call for it professionally these days but it always nice to have it as a skill. No matter how rusty it is (like mine, ahem!). :-)
-
mdma wrote:
VB is taught to the young kids that aren't so bright and just barely managed the grades to get innto college. It used to be Pascal.
Java is taught to the next level up. It used to be C and assembly (68k and x86).
C++ and assembly is taught at the highest intelligence level for the most complex assignments.
What does this say to you?
Most people go there whole lives without ever learning to drive a stick shift. Does that make them dumb?
I am part of that old curriculum than learned Fortran, Pascal, C and assembler. I went back on my own and took a class on C++ and read a book on Java and PHP.... So what?
Infact, that is my answer - "So what?"
I prefer VB.net - so what?
-
lou_dias wrote:
mdma wrote:
VB is taught to the young kids that aren't so bright and just barely managed the grades to get innto college. It used to be Pascal.
Java is taught to the next level up. It used to be C and assembly (68k and x86).
C++ and assembly is taught at the highest intelligence level for the most complex assignments.
What does this say to you?
Most people go there whole lives without ever learning to drive a stick shift. Does that make them dumb?
Useless analogy. That just makes them American, not dumb. Most drivers in the world learn to drive using a manual gear stick.
I am part of that old curriculum than learned Fortran, Pascal, C and assembler. I went back on my own and took a class on C++ and read a book on Java and PHP.... So what?
Infact, that is my answer - "So what?"
I prefer VB.net - so what?
So you prefer it. The whole point that everyone else is trying to make to you is that just because you prefer it, that doesn't make it superior to everything else.
I prefer Magic (http://magicsoftware.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=InnerPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=tech%5El1%5EseDeveloper&enZone=tech&enVersion=0&branch=hq&enretain=branch&) for Rapid Application Development. There is *nothing* on this earth that can touch it for speed and ease of development.
Does that make it the best language in the world, just because I prefer it for a specific type of development?
-
IMHO Pascal and Delphi always blew BASIC and VB away.
VB is just for teaching bad programming practices.
-
adolescent wrote:
How about this (it's fairly common to need this information); Get CPU information, speed, model, manufacturer, stepping, etc. using just VB code.
Imports System.Management
Dim query As New ManagementObjectSearcher("select * from win32_processor")
For Each cpu As ManagementObject In query.Get()
Console.WriteLine(cpu("Name"))
Console.WriteLine(cpu("Speed"))
Next
etc...
also look here for user and OS information
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/interopmigration/linux/mvc/takeadv.mspx
-
mdma wrote:
So you prefer it. The whole point that everyone else is trying to make to you is that just because you prefer it, that doesn't make it superior to everything else.
No, everyone including you are saying that I have an inferior intellect for preferring it. The difference being I never cared what anyone else preferred...not one iota...
-
lou_dias wrote:
mdma wrote:
So you prefer it. The whole point that everyone else is trying to make to you is that just because you prefer it, that doesn't make it superior to everything else.
No, everyone including you are saying that I have an inferior intellect for preferring it. The difference being I never cared what anyone else preferred...not one iota...
No, you are saying it is superior.
What everyone else is saying, is that if it is so superior how come it is not used by or taught to people that do have superior intellect?
-
lou_dias wrote:
mdma wrote:
So you prefer it. The whole point that everyone else is trying to make to you is that just because you prefer it, that doesn't make it superior to everything else.
No, everyone including you are saying that I have an inferior intellect for preferring it. The difference being I never cared what anyone else preferred...not one iota...
Now you are getting a little paranoid. Nobody has said you are intellectually inferior for preferring VB but people have questioned your judgement as to why you didn't like C/C++. Or rather why you claim "suck ass" and are "fugly", why we should recognise VB's superiority and then give some of the least well reasoned arguments I have read that aren't even consistent across several posts.
You also made yourself look silly in the way you criticised not only C/C++ as languages but those who prefer it over Basic syntax and their attitudes, or that C/C++ is somehow a dead or stagnant language not used by more than a handful of geeks and eschewed by the buisness world, or by throwing down the "what can C do that VB cant?" gauntlet when it is patently obvious that C's scope is wider than VB.net and so there are whole avenues of development for which C can be used and VB.net can't. Wether or not that's different "in 40 years time" is irrelavent today.
C has already stood that particular test of time, given birth to several syntactically related languages and wether you like it or not is here to stay.
In the end, the only person inferring you are a bit silly is yourself because you cannot separate your preference for a language over another from its inherent capabilities overall. You like it, therefore it is better. You don't like C, therefore it is inferior, starting right back at your first post on the matter. Hardly well reasoned.
As for the rest of the people, we recognise tools that are good for particular jobs. VB is good as a RAD tool under windows etc, but it is not the best RAD tool available. Java is a good choice for web / mobile devices, but it is not the best tool for large scale application development (even though the language itself is quite nice). PHP is a good choice for rapid development of server pages and other scripted applications but it's not so good for making desktop applications. Asm is good for low level embedded work / driver layer and performance critical code but it is not so good for full scale application development.
There is one language that is actually quite useable for all these purposes and more. And it isn't VB. It's C.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Imports System.Management
Dim query As New ManagementObjectSearcher("select * from win32_processor")
For Each cpu As ManagementObject In query.Get()
Console.WriteLine(cpu("Name"))
Console.WriteLine(cpu("Speed"))
Next
Since you are dependant on WMI running, what about systems that don't have WMI and/or have it disabled.
-
Then you have to go off into the Win32 API. Possible in VB but you need to link to some extra dlls
-
srg86 wrote:
Then you have to go off into the Win32 API. Possible in VB but you need to link to some extra dlls
Which as we all know are written in C/C++.
-
Karlos wrote:
There is one language that is actually quite useable for all these purposes and more. And it isn't VB. It's C.
Darn. I was hoping you'd say C#. :-? J#? :-? :-? :-?
-
It was written in C/C++. how can a system without the vb runtime dlls in that case hehe LOL
Another reason why VB is sssllllooowwww, those runtimes
(sorry VB is a pet hate of mine)
-
One more thing C/C++ can do that VB.NET can't. Earn you more money.
Software Development Magazine/Salary Survey 2005/Average Salary by Languages Used (http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=9907/sdm0511a/0511a14.html)
For people that don't want to sign up. (I've removed some of the fluff, mainly because I don't want to admit that a Python programmer makes more than me. :-D)
C $87K $104K
C++ $87K $104K
J2EE $87K $106K
J2ME $86K $107K
Java $85K $103K
C# $82K $102K
.NET $81K $100K
Cobol $79K $99K
Edit: put this thing in a code block so it would line up right.
-
with all the flack buzzing around this thread you'd think somebody dropped a mohammad cartoon in here.
-
koaftder wrote:
with all the flack buzzing around this thread you'd think somebody dropped a mohammad cartoon in here.
Well, some VB loving infidel did dare to ridicule the good name of C, after all :-D
-
koaftder wrote:
with all the flack buzzing around this thread you'd think somebody dropped a mohammad cartoon in here.
(http://failsure.net/~ross154/static/img_/jihad.jpg)
I'm so sorry. ^_^
-
Don't be, all serious developers know C++ is "da bomb!" :-P
-edit-
(http://www.itcall.com/_temp/noddy.jpg)
:-P
-
VB.net Suxxxors!!!
!!!AMOS FOREVER !!! (http://www.itcall.com/_temp/TheBigNoddyBook.png)
-
Karlos wrote:
koaftder wrote:
with all the flack buzzing around this thread you'd think somebody dropped a mohammad cartoon in here.
Well, some VB loving infidel did dare to ridicule the good name of C, after all :-D
Actually, other that pat each other in the back, none of you has changed my preference or opinion.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Karlos wrote:
koaftder wrote:
with all the flack buzzing around this thread you'd think somebody dropped a mohammad cartoon in here.
Well, some VB loving infidel did dare to ridicule the good name of C, after all :-D
Actually, other that pat each other in the back, none of you has changed my preference or opinion.
Come on man, don't take it so personally :lol:
Nobody is trying to convert you; just simply point out that none of the reasons you have given make VB.net a better language than any other and none of the reasons you have given make C a worse one than any other. Everybody knows you like VB.net just as you know many of us prefer C etc.
Regardless, if you want to develop serious software for OS4, C/C++ are your only real choices anyway. There was an AMOS project, I don't know where that is up to :-)
-
Karlos wrote:
Regardless, if you want to develop serious software for OS4, C/C++ are your only real choices anyway. There was an AMOS project, I don't know where that is up to :-)
Oh, I knew that like 10 years ago. But I've never said that I was going to develop anything for OS4.
back in 95/96 is when I bought Gamesmith 2.0 to develop games for the Amiga and it was all in C. That's when I went out and took a real C & C++ class but by the time I was done with that, I got an IT job doing PICK BASIC w/UniVerse db programming. Shortly after that, I found VB and the rest as they say is history. Needless to say, I've made a career out of BASIC with a dash of Visual FoxPro.
-
Gee, I'd hate to get back on topic and all but...
http://revolution.ign.com/articles/688/688570p1.html
I'm thinking that mystery connector is for optical digital audio. I use that on my HD receiver and I believe the connecter has that same exact shape...looks like those Dolby 7.1 rumors are atleast a possibility... Also, it would be sweet if the component video cable I currently own for the GC would plug right in to Revolution. Doesn't sound so strange when you realize their composite a/v cable has been the same since the SNES...
-
lou_dias wrote:
Gee, I'd hate to get back on topic and all but...
That's back on topic? Or, was "Lou Diaz's Random Nintendo Fanboy Rants" the topic all along and you were just using OS4 as a smokescreen to spread your Pro-Nintendo, Pro-VB.NET, and Pro-Pontiac Fiero propaganda. :-P
-
This thread is.....................................................................................like swimming in mud. I think I'll be interested again about the time somebody who is actually doing something to make this happen starts posting....................a year, a whole bl**dy year of "Oh yes you can" and "Oh no you can't", tedious, damn tedious. :roll:
-
lou_dias wrote:
Gee, I'd hate to get back on topic and all but...
http://revolution.ign.com/articles/688/688570p1.html
I'm thinking that mystery connector is for optical digital audio. I use that on my HD receiver and I believe the connecter has that same exact shape...looks like those Dolby 7.1 rumors are atleast a possibility... Also, it would be sweet if the component video cable I currently own for the GC would plug right in to Revolution. Doesn't sound so strange when you realize their composite a/v cable has been the same since the SNES...
My PS2 has TOSLINK optical digital audio out. TOSLINK is the standard for optical digital audio, and that is definitely NOT a TOSLINK connector. It's either a custom cable, or not optical digital audio.
-
adolescent wrote:
That's back on topic? Or, was "Lou Diaz's Random Nintendo Fanboy Rants" the topic all along and you were just using OS4 as a smokescreen to spread your Pro-Nintendo, Pro-VB.NET, and Pro-Pontiac Fiero propaganda. :-P
Oh, you've discovered my grand scheme to take over the world by making everyone drive Fieros, play Nintendo and program in VB.NET... You win the prize.
:destroy:
-
Everytime this thread dies you have to bust out our signature double post, wtf.
I'm guessing your posts correspond your regular drinking binges. Just let of the controller, set down the crack pipe, enjoy a little time away from the computer.
-
koaftder wrote:
Everytime this thread dies you have to bust out our signature double post, wtf.
Double post?
I'm guessing your posts correspond your regular drinking binges. Just let of the controller, set down the crack pipe, enjoy a little time away from the computer.
Don't assume everyone has the same bad habits you do. Though I find it amusing that you wish this thread dead then continue to post in it... :-?
Ah the hypocracy...
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
Everytime this thread dies you have to bust out our signature double post, wtf.
Double post?
The last thread in this post is always yours, then it dies. Days latter you resurrect it, usually with some interesting news regarding nintendo, along with an opinion. Hence, the signature "lou_dias" signature double post.
You could at least keep up educated as to the status of your fiero, along with your geek hack. Myabe you could even get featured on http://www.tehshow.org/ where you could discuss the merits of revolution vs xbox 360. Yall could gesticulate to rap music with 16 year olds infront of the camera, you would even be old enough to push back a 40 bottle of malt liquor, that alone would make their show. You of course would need a boing ball on that bottle of schlitz. Let the world know amiga is stil alive and kicking.
-
well, I was billed $4500 on the 9th for the transmission swap (includes parts) set to be begin next week.
I'm still waiting for the 4 new bearings (5x4.75" formerly 5x100mm), front susp crossmember, tubular A-arms, 4 Wilwood multi-piston calipers, 4 12" rotors, pads and rear bump-steer correction kit to be delivered to the same place. I will have to pay extra labor for that installation.
I shipped my 4 Chrome wheels last week. My Falken 512's 255/60/16ZR tires have already arrived there.
Does that please you?
For further info about the build of my car:
http://www.realfierotech.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2561
-
lou_dias wrote:
Does that please you?
So much so that I fear I may need to find a sock...
-
Karlos wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Does that please you?
So much so that I fear I may need to find a sock...
:roflmao:
-
With all the time effort and money you spent with that fiero, you could have learned c and got a job making enough money to buy a new car.
-
I worked part-time at an auto-auction lot in 2003 between IT jobs and have driven every car between 1980 (and some older ones) and 2003 ever sold in America.
I like Fieros. I do like the look of C5 Vettes but the car is too big for it's own good. For 1/2 the investment I can have a Fiero looking as good (although different) and be just as fast and handle better.
While my frame is 20 years old...none of the major components will be. The transmission is coming from a 2006 Pontiac G6, for instance.
Besides, upgrading cars is more rewarding than upgrading PCs.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Besides, upgrading cars is more rewarding than upgrading PCs.
Maybe, but the depreciation sucks even more.
As for the American love of huge cars. Pass me the O2 whilst there is still some left! :admonish:
-
The Fiero is a 2 seater. Also, it's value's actually been going up. But besides that, I'll be taking it to the insurance appraiser. This is a must when you do as many "upgrades" as I am doing.
Depreciation's only a concern with "new" cars. When I buy a Fiero, I don't care what it's worth now or in 5 years. It is only going to matter if it's stolen or in an accident.
-
Tell me it runs on Fuel Cells and I'll be happy. :lol:
Tell me you've got OS4 running on that damn Cube and I'll be happier still. :roflmao:
-
lol
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Tell me it runs on Fuel Cells and I'll be happy. :lol:
Tell me you've got OS4 running on that damn Cube and I'll be happier still. :roflmao:
Coincidentally, the failed GM EV1 car was prototyped on a Fiero chasis and eventually developed on an all-aluminum version of the Fiero chasis...
There are actually atleast several fuel-cell-powered Fieros on the road.
http://greenplanet3.org/ev/
We'd all be happier if OS4 was running on the GC...because then anyone could actually get their hands on the hardware... The GC is certainly not VAPORWARE! :)
-
lou_dias wrote:
There are actually atleast several fuel-cell-powered Fieros on the road.
Fuel cell powered Fieros? :crazy: Now I've heard everything in this thread.
-
I've seen this one in person, the owner lives 1/2 hour away in Wareham, Mass
http://www.fieropride.com/~fieropr/gallery/fac2004/res51969
but this is a gas fuel cell, not electric
here's a mention of another electric
http://www.ziggr.com/ev/expo97/index.shtml
another
http://www.econogics.com/ev/myevs.htm
another
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/184.html
another
http://www.phoenixeaa.com/photoalbum/streetevs/stack1/main.html
http://members.aol.com/Rsuiter/Electric_colt.html
http://www2.mne.psu.edu/futuretruck/outreach/fall04.htm
http://www.canev.com/Customers/Fiero/Fiero.html
uh, I think you get the point
-
lou_dias wrote:
I've seen this one in person, the owner lives 1/2 hour away in Wareham, Mass
http://www.fieropride.com/~fieropr/gallery/fac2004/res51969
but this is a gas fuel cell, not electric
LOL. Having a "fuel cell" (ie. competition fuel tank) doesn't make it a fuel cell powered car. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
-
I'm sticking with the gas powered ones:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/027741.html
-
@lou
:huh: No fuel cell powered Fieros there either Diaz.
-
adolescent wrote:
@lou
Diaz
learn how to spell first then go re-read my edited message
-
lou_dias wrote:
learn how to spell first then go re-read my edited message
Diaz, but those are all electric, not fuel cell. :rtfm:
-
I see you still haven't learned how to spell.
Those electric use different mechanisms...
So define what "fuel" cell you are referring to?
But who gives a hoot anyway? I'll never convert to electric until they can produce a generator that can produces enough power to rival the power:weight ratios of gas powered cars.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I see you still haven't learned how to spell.
Those electric use different mechanisms...
So define what "fuel" cell you are referring to?
But who gives a hoot anyway? I'll never convert to electric until they can produce a generator that can produces enough power to rival the power:weight ratios of gas powered cars.
http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/self%20charging%20cars.htm
a quote from the site
The converted Pontiac Bonneville has no less than 12 separate modified items that are new to electric cars.
The end results was to have a powerful car with room and all the comforts such as AC, power steering, heat, power windows, power seats etc.
The point was to show that electric cars need not be slow in speed but could have everything that a top of the line car could offer. The Pontiac Bonneville proved to be the best for comfort and have everything in extra equipment and options. The “production model” Tilley system is the main point for any electric car as it provides power to run the car and allows for all the extras.
-
Die thread, DIE :ak47:
-
flame on
-
:flame:(http://www.newave.it/images/title_2_icon.gif)
-
ECM written in vb.net, batteries fueled by delusions. Locomotion achieved by transmitting vibrational energy from subwoofer box to trunk lid. Only moves in reverse at the rate of 1.4cm/minute. Has an inverting affect on ones sexuality. Price in negative dollars.
-
Die thread, DIE
agreed
-
koaftder wrote:
http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/self%20charging%20cars.htm
A box that produces more electricity than it consumes...I'll bet you poop more than you eat too.
-
lou_dias wrote:
koaftder wrote:
http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/self%20charging%20cars.htm
A box that produces more electricity than it consumes...I'll bet you poop more than you eat too.
Oh well, i was hoping you'd buy into it... After all the fiero sucks ass, i mean, it's like 2006 now, get with the times. the fiero is ugly and the engine is midway. My opinion is golden and all qutomobile owners should agree with me.
-
koaftder wrote:
Oh well, i was hoping you'd buy into it... After all the fiero sucks ass, i mean, it's like 2006 now, get with the times. the fiero is ugly and the engine is midway. My opinion is golden and all qutomobile owners should agree with me.
Hey, while you're at it, ditch that archaic Amiga computer. Shouldn't everybody. I think all computer owners would agree.
Anyway...
Like I said, upgrading cars is more rewarding than upgrading to a cpu with twice the clockspeed but only yeilds a 25% increase in actual computing power.
Interestly enough, most cars are considered mid-engine. This is because most of the engine sits either behind the front axle or in the Fiero's case infront of the rear axle. It's not "midway" as you put it. Also beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I could just as easily say whatever you drive is ugly and I believe by my standards it would be.
Get with the times? So all classic and antique car owners should just drop their cars off at the boneyard, eh? The only difference here is I don't feel the need to keep my car factory original. The Fiero chasis is an excellent platform in more ways than you know, I am merely enhancing everything else about it.
And if you honestly believe these cars are ugly, get your eyes checked: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/027741-6.html
-
Just wondering how this thread became a discussion of Fiero Automobiles and got away from Amiga Computers in general.
Call me silly.
-
It happened when I mentioned that I wanted to mount a GC running hopefully AROS in my Fiero.
anything this guy can do I can do better: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/057546.html
-
I prefer a Shelby mustang gt 500.
-
I actually did some consulting work for Factory Five Racing and my brother used to work in the shipping department there... https://www.factoryfive.com
but I prefer these: http://www.ifgonline.com/
the tubular suspension is the one I'm adding to my car...
-
lou_dias wrote:
I actually did some consulting work for Factory Five Racing and my brother used to work in the shipping department there... https://www.factoryfive.com
but I prefer these: http://www.ifgonline.com/
the tubular suspension is the one I'm adding to my car...
So, how much does a fanboy make as a consultant?
-
And what am I a fanboy of? Factory Five makes Mustang-based Shelby Cobra kits. I don't care for Mustangs or Cobras. Some nice people do work their and they do make quality products so I can't knock that.
Their latest supercar involves a custom chasis with a rear-mounted Corvette motor. Looks great but still not for me. I prefer cars over racing machines. Cars are made to be driven and enjoyed every day.
-
lou_dias wrote:
And what am I a fanboy of? Factory Five makes Mustang-based Shelby Cobra kits. I don't care for Mustangs or Cobras. Some nice people do work their and they do make quality products so I can't knock that.
Phweeww, at least it's not catch on fire cheap ass made from chevette parts fireos.
I prefer cars over racing machines. Cars are made to be driven and enjoyed every day.
Thats why on one of thoes links you posted, you tout how youve gotten an extra measly 10hp from messing around with your own exhaust crap? Please, this reads like your other arguments in this thread.
Dude, please post pix of your car and crap, so i can say nice job instead of yeah right. I used to turn wrenches for a living, and god help me i hope i never have to get into that business again, but i can see how it can be fun for guys as a hobby.
-
As for your vb.net experience, if you could wire up a daq to a windows mobile device, you could write an ECM for the fiero, and it would boot quickly. You could have all kinds of tunable peramiters for the engine tweakers, and it would be fast enough on a 400MHz arm device ( ipaq ). Sure the geeks would make fun of you, but the car guys would probably love it.
http://www1.analog.com/en/prod/0,,762_0_ADUC7026%2C00.html
Write some wrapper code so you could interface that to a windows mobile device, and call from vb.net and you would end up with a sellable product. All an engine needs to run is fuel/ spark/timing/ compression. Fuel and compression is mechanical and analog. All you have to do is handle timing readings and sparc timings. Ignore emissions crap. Not too hard is it?
Sample crank and cam positions, measure fuel/air ratios, etc, spark at right times baesd on tunable parameters based on sensor readings...
-
This thread is a farce.
-
coldfish wrote:
This thread is a farce.
PostCount++;
and the spirit lives on...
Or in the cause of vb.nut users:
PostCount = PostCount + 1
system.io.lol.wtf.outheresomewhere.msgbox.send ( "Lol" & PostCount, vb.types.absurd.msgbox.forreal, vb.keepin.real )
-
coldfish wrote:
This thread is a farce.
Blame the haters.
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
I prefer a Shelby mustang gt 500.
'57 Daimler Hearse with a coffin full of NO2...FwaHa Ha :evil:
-
koaftder wrote:
Phweeww, at least it's not catch on fire cheap ass made from chevette parts fireos.
With comments like that you would also qualify as a troll on the Fiero boards. All 2.5L engines GM made in 1984 had a defect because the 1 out of every 5 rods supplied to make the motors was defective from the manufacturer. Due to what was then called "cramped engine quarters" (spacey by today's standards) when the rod would let go, oil would hit the shielding material and a total of 637 out of 210000 Fieros caught fire between '84 and '85. The show 20/20 did a special on this and the Fiero got labelled as a potential fire-death trap.
Amazingly over 1 MILLION (count as of 2003) Ford Taurus's (the problem covers many Ford vehicles) have caught fire since 1988 but the car doesn't carry the label. The difference is Ford still denies the ignition switch issue while GM recalled EVERY Fiero and fixed it for FREE. So no, Fieros don't catch fires, Fords do.
As for the Chevette comment, it had a similar front suspension design to the Chevette but not the same parts. In '88 they changed the design completely. Coincidentally, the Fiero GT and Firebird share some parts but I don't go around saying that my car is part Firebird. It's common for all car manufacturers to interchange parts between car lines. What's your point?
Thats why on one of thoes links you posted, you tout how youve gotten an extra measly 10hp from messing around with your own exhaust crap? Please, this reads like your other arguments in this thread.
Dude, please post pix of your car and crap, so i can say nice job instead of yeah right. I used to turn wrenches for a living, and god help me i hope i never have to get into that business again, but i can see how it can be fun for guys as a hobby.
First, I posted a link to my website and it contains pics of 2 of my 4 Fieros. I can email you pics of the last 2 that got totalled (1 racing at Seekonk and another because I let some idiot drive it). I traded in my first to get my second so I don't have any pics of that. And I still haven't seen my 4th because I bought it from Alabama over the phone from a reputable place I've done business with before. It's now in Illinois and the 6 speed swap is beginning this week according to when I last spoke with the owner of the place a week and a half ago.
You've already proven your ignorance when it comes to Fieros. The dyno I have on my site shows the difference between the EGR valve on and off. And you stand here calling me a liar. That's your opinion and that's fine.
My opinion is that you are a troll and are way too concerned with my life. Please get your own.
-
You've already proven your ignorance when it comes to Fieros. The dyno I have on my site shows the difference between the EGR valve on and off. And you stand here calling me a liar. That's your opinion and that's fine.
I never called you a liar. All i asked was if you could put up some pix of your car, and why not, arent you proud of it? Ive worked on thousands of cars, even a few fieros. I never said i was an expert on fieros. In fact, i'm not an expert on any type of car. But from the experience of thousands of repair jobs, i can tell you that guys who put chrom tips on their exhaust pipes think they ride runs faster. Customers who have the fluids topped off and the brakes changed perceive better performance from the car, etc.
My opinion is that you are a troll and are way too concerned with my life. Please get your own.
Wow, for the first time you actually state an oppinion. Congradulations.
Haha, i see you are getting upset now, maybe it's because you just realized that you neglect your woman to buy parts for your fiero.
-
koaftder wrote:
I never called you a liar. All i asked was if you could put up some pix of your car, and why not, arent you proud of it? Ive worked on thousands of cars, even a few fieros. I never said i was an expert on fieros. In fact, i'm not an expert on any type of car. But from the experience of thousands of repair jobs, i can tell you that guys who put chrom tips on their exhaust pipes think they ride runs faster. Customers who have the fluids topped off and the brakes changed perceive better performance from the car, etc.
If you've worked on cars then you'd know that getting 10 rear wheel horse power out of a car just by popping off an EGR valve tells you the stock 2" Fiero exhaust made for a 2.8L motor is too restrictive for a 3.4 motor that it's now attached to and that there's more potenital there to be unlocked with a proper exhaust. By your statement, you should also know that getting 10 dyno-proven rwhp out of any mod is pretty good.
Wow, for the first time you actually state an oppinion. Congradulations.
Haha, i see you are getting upset now, maybe it's because you just realized that you neglect your woman to buy parts for your fiero.
Actually, everything is my opinion and always has been from the GC's ability to run AO4 to VB.NET being better than C. It's people like you that act childish and cry foul. As for the woman comment, if I have to spend that kind of money on her, she's already not worth it. Cars and computers are a hobby. Relationships are supposed to be equal partnerships, if yours haven't been, that's your weakness of character. It's hard to get upset when I now see how all your reactions to my statements are just coming up as childish remarks. So now I understand what I'm dealing with.
Ps,
You can follow this thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/024804-34.html
after he finishes the Caddy 4.9 w/6 speed in a Fiero he is going to be doing my 2.8 w/6 speed conversion. It will be the first time he's worked on a 2.8 other than removing them for V8 swaps...because that's his main business.
Update: part of my suspension and brake package is now pictured on that page and on the next is my wheels...
-
You two should be on tha' telly, maybe on tha cheapass channel dat Ma 'n Cletus watch, sure!
We don' g'much f'book learning 'round here.
Hey! how 'bout you fellas git t'gither an duke it out huh? ya seem t' hate each other pretty big.
-
Tripitaka wrote:
You two should be on tha' telly, maybe on tha cheapass channel dat Ma 'n Cletus watch, sure!
We don' g'much f'book learning 'round here.
Hey! how 'bout you fellas git t'gither an duke it out huh? ya seem t' hate each other pretty big.
Didn't you bloaks learn English in school?
-
lou_dias wrote:
Didn't you bloaks learn English in school?
From dictionary.com:
[color=0000ff]No entry found for bloaks.
Did you mean blokes?[/color]
-
lou_dias wrote:
Didn't you bloaks learn English in school?
yea, that and c
-
Tripitaka wrote:
You two should be on tha' telly, maybe on tha cheapass channel dat Ma 'n Cletus watch, sure!
We don' g'much f'book learning 'round here.
Hey! how 'bout you fellas git t'gither an duke it out huh? ya seem t' hate each other pretty big.
I'm not mad at lou, and i dont hate him either. If we ran into eachother at a bar, i'm sure we could have a nice chat about cars, microcomputers and women over a guniess.
-
Well, if we were going to drink the fuller beers, I'd have to ask for a Blue Moon. At the clubs these days I drink Captain Crunch - Captain Morgan, Malibu, pine-apple juice and cranberry juice.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Update: part of my suspension and brake package is now pictured on that page and on the next is my wheels...
Why aren't you doing the work yourself? The best part of car customizing is satisfaction of doing it yourself.
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, if we were going to drink the fuller beers, I'd have to ask for a Blue Moon. At the clubs these days I drink Captain Crunch - Captain Morgan, Malibu, pine-apple juice and cranberry juice.
Yes, i like the blue moon too. I stay away from the liquor.
cheers! :pint:
-
koaftder wrote:
I'm not mad at lou, and i dont hate him either. If we ran into eachother at a bar, i'm sure we could have a nice chat about cars, microcomputers and women over a guniess.
Yeah well I woz joking with you both anyway.
Ever try some nice British ales? Broadside? Atilla The Hun? Our local brewery (Adnams)knocks out some head scaffers. It's all good after your first pint. :crazy:
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
Update: part of my suspension and brake package is now pictured on that page and on the next is my wheels...
Why aren't you doing the work yourself? The best part of car customizing is satisfaction of doing it yourself.
Well:
#1: Fiero engines come out the bottom so you need a lift (to lift the car off the drivetrain)
#2: No garage
#3: It's bloody cold out there with no garage
and most importantly
#4: I don't like to get my hands dirty
I have done basic things like replace the clutch slave cylinder and basic distributor/ignition stuff. I've grinded excess casting off the factory exhaust manifolds. I know everything I want done and I've picked every part myself, I'd just rather pay someone else to put it together and leave me to the most important part: enjoying the driving.
-
Here in North Carolina, USA until very recently( as in like 6 months ago i beleive) there was a limit to the ammount of alcohol allowed in beer, i beleive it was like 6%, limiting the beer selection. Now we are free to drink what ever we want, so suggest away.
-
#1: Fiero engines come out the bottom so you need a lift (to lift the car off the drivetrain)
#2: No garage
#3: It's bloody cold out there with no garage
and most importantly
#4: I don't like to get my hands dirty
I have done basic things like replace the clutch slave cylinder and basic distributor/ignition stuff. I've grinded excess casting off the factory exhaust manifolds. I know everything I want done and I've picked every part myself, I'd just rather pay someone else to put it together and leave me to the most important part: enjoying the driving.
It's not any warmer in the shop during the winter ( for thoes shops with no heaters ). It never felt right standing under a car on the lift, 3000lbs of hardware slightly rocking back and forth as you do your thing.
Ive seen guys not set the arms right, and hit the switch, crushing the undersides of doors. I knew a guy who had one drop off the lift, and he broke a bunch of ribs(he was most likely drinking). A friend of mine had a car up on a jack and no stands, replacing a starter on buick, and things didnt look quite right. I grabbed a large wood block and just as i slipped it under the frame, the car fell, it ended up resting on the very edge of the block. Dude got out from under that car real fast.
One time i replaced the clutch on a 240sx, flywheel was burred so i sent it into the machine shop to get turned, put it all back together to find out they turned it beyond spec, so i had to take it all down and replace it.
many times ive had transmissions sent off to the tranny guy, just to have them break 2 weeks later and have to pull it down again( and not get paid of course ).
Same thing with engines from the junk yard. Spend 10 hours pulling and replacing an engine just to do it all over again when you find out you got sold bum hardware. Customers call up pissed off their car is in the shop for a week, they tell all their friends yer a crook and you suck.
Every car has a completely different electrical setup. One wire shorts to ground or a sensor is off by an ass hair, and the either doesnt run or runs like crap, takes days to find the problem.
No matter how many times you do it, setting time on an interference engine is scary.
Cheap pontiac cars are engineered by monkeys. Aluminum thermostat housings, steel bolts holding it down. Plastic connectors that rot after 3 years, fuel sending units that corrode, etc.
You dont need a lift to get an engine out of a car where it drops out the bottom. You just need to prop up the front end an awful lot and walk the engine out from under the car on a jack. Think of the lift as a convience/time saver piece of equipment. Theres always a way to get around not having one. If that werent the case, most southern rednecks would be riding bicycles.
-
koaftder wrote:
If that werent the case, most southern rednecks would be riding bicycles.
LOL
I don't spend big money on quality parts and the people I pay to do my work have the reputation behind them.
Luckily, I'm getting free labor on the 6-speed install as he just finished developing the kit and needed guinea-pigs with different motors to test fit it. The transmission can handle the LS3 in the GTP so I don't have to worry about building a motor that will pump out 200rwhp. The car will weight about 2800 lbs loaded with all options.
-
lou_dias wrote:
#4: I don't like to get my hands dirty
Anybody can write a check. :-(
If you wanted to keep your hands clean then starting with a 15+ year old car isn't a good idea. But then again, you don't have to worry about that.
-
adolescent wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
#4: I don't like to get my hands dirty
Anybody can write a check. :-(
If you wanted to keep your hands clean then starting with a 15+ year old car isn't a good idea. But then again, you don't have to worry about that.
Well, I leave stuff like that to experts. Just like I leave OS porting to experts...
Fieros have held up rather well over the years.
Also, it's nice NOT to have to do it myself. I pick my options and get only what I want (which is usually alot). They have a bad reputation that is no longer deserved. For instance, did you know the Fiero is the only car every to receive a 5 star safety rating (http://members.fortunecity.com/lowkey88/crashtest.htm#) WITHOUT AN AIRBAG? It's ok that everyone thinks they catch on fire all the time and are death-traps. That just lets me buy them cheap.
-
koaftder wrote:
Here in North Carolina, USA until very recently( as in like 6 months ago i beleive) there was a limit to the ammount of alcohol allowed in beer, i beleive it was like 6%, limiting the beer selection. Now we are free to drink what ever we want, so suggest away.
6%,Lame!
That's why so many English people think American Beer tastes like gnats 9!55 I guess.
-
I can't believe this thread is still going on and wasting band width here with all the attacks back and forth and the wandering off topic. Am I the only one that thinks this thread should have been shut down by the moderator a long time ago?
-
Woah! This guy has a boat-load of NGC development equipment including this USB adapter via the memorycard port:
http://www.fazycruck.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=30
-
lou_dias wrote:
Woah! This guy has a boat-load of NGC development equipment including this USB adapter via the memorycard port:
I'd rather have the SN-TDEV. With the added memory, it could run AOS4! :lol:
-
Ah yes, those extra 24Mb must have made all the difference to OS4...luckily Revolution will have atleast an extra 64MB...
Interesting how it sends .elf's to the GC similarly to the first "soft mod" applications that exploit Phantasy Star Online.
ProDG offers Visual Studio integration but still requires a Nintendo SDK. :(
I think next year I will take a 3D animation course...have you heard? Revolution Developer's Kits are only $2000! http://revolution.ign.com/articles/690/690730p1.html
-
amigadave wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still going on and wasting band width here with all the attacks back and forth and the wandering off topic. Am I the only one that thinks this thread should have been shut down by the moderator a long time ago?
Geesh man. I thought you Californians were all like laid back and chilled. Relax man, no ones been harmed in the making of this thread. :afro:
-
lou_dias wrote:
...have you heard? Revolution Developer's Kits are only $2000! http://revolution.ign.com/articles/690/690730p1.html
Yes, but will they really sell one to you? It's easy to get a second hand NR Reader but getting something straight from Nintendo is going to be tough.
-
adolescent wrote:
Yes, but will they really sell one to you? It's easy to get a second hand NR Reader but getting something straight from Nintendo is going to be tough.
Well, if you've been following there announcements since E3, they are looking to attract small developers and reduce team sizes and development time. I think the first 'Brain Training' game on the DS was done by no more than 5 people...
Believe it or not, I can go to E3 if I want, I'm considered an industry professional. I received the registration information about 3 or 4 months ago but I've misplaced it. At one time I was thinking of registering myself and another person and then auctioning off my second pass on Ebay...LOL!
Safe to say, when you compare the price of the PSP devkit ($18000) to the Revolution, Nintendo has made it easy to start development. Let's just say you or I get one, then "contract" Hyperion to port OS4 to Revolution using your/my licensed devkit. Then it would be just a matter of finding a publisher (I hear Atari's deserate these days) to negociate royalties and the like. Now would be the right time to do this. Interestly enough, Nintendo is porting Opera to the Nintendo DS...I wonder is it will do the same for Revolution. This strengthens the possibility of allowing a 3rd party 'OS' on the platform for simple things like email and web-browsing as they may also offer a similar product. The only drawback is if Nintendo would want to make money on OS4 software that runs on Revoltion, games for instance...
-
But what i really want to know is how does one smoke cheese? I dont mean like "smoked cheese", i mean like actually "smoking cheese". I'm guessing it would be quite hard on the lungs.
-
Whats that smell... Ahh yes, smoldering plastic. Somebody in the vicinity has been smoking legos.
-
@lou
Good luck then. I still don't think they'll sell devkits to people off the street (they never have, even buying from SNSystems you need to be registered developer). Being a licensed developer working with a small dev team is a small thing compared to being a bedroom coder.
Also remember that Nintendo has to approve what gets published. You'd have to convince Atari AND Nintendo and I don't think that's going to happen either. But, maybe in a few years a modchip for the Rev will be released and we'll have this thread repeat itself. :crazy:
Re: E3. It's not as exciting as it used to be. Too many non-industry types getting in on faked credentials. I didn't even bother to go last year because of the crowds and lack of anything interesting to look at/play. (I had been every year except the first one and the one that was in Atlanta) . This year, with the lack of booth babes might be even worse, but at least the new systems will be displayed.
-
adolescent wrote:
@lou
Good luck then. I still don't think they'll sell devkits to people off the street (they never have, even buying from SNSystems you need to be registered developer). Being a licensed developer working with a small dev team is a small thing compared to being a bedroom coder.
Also remember that Nintendo has to approve what gets published. You'd have to convince Atari AND Nintendo and I don't think that's going to happen either. But, maybe in a few years a modchip for the Rev will be released and we'll have this thread repeat itself. :crazy:
Re: E3. It's not as exciting as it used to be. Too many non-industry types getting in on faked credentials. I didn't even bother to go last year because of the crowds and lack of anything interesting to look at/play. (I had been every year except the first one and the one that was in Atlanta) . This year, with the lack of booth babes might be even worse, but at least the new systems will be displayed.
But dude, you dont understand Nintendo is like, god and jesus and all thoes other people. Nintendo will spark a new revolution in the world. They are going to give away dev kits to 13 year olds for free! LOL!
LOL! Nintendo will approve any game, no matter how perverted or violent it may be. Nintendo is here to liberate us all. LOL! LOL! LOL! This thread will probably be here when the mod chips are avaiable for this new system. LOL!
LOL!
LOL! I'm actually considered a professional! LOL! I might even buy one for me and one for a friend and then a third and ebay it. LOL!
-
Yeah, no booth babes does suck...
...
and I don't think koaftlder's put down the beer since we agreed to a toast.
-
Nice to see people taking an interest in the site, it's good to know I'm not the only one looking, hehe.
Check back soon, I have a ton of dev units on the way.
GDEV's
GBOXes
Brand new boxed DDH
NPDP Gang writers, etc etc
SN-TDEV would be nice but very expensive at the mo
Andy
-
lou_dias wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Yes, but will they really sell one to you? It's easy to get a second hand NR Reader but getting something straight from Nintendo is going to be tough.
Well, if you've been following there announcements since E3, they are looking to attract small developers and reduce team sizes and development time. I think the first 'Brain Training' game on the DS was done by no more than 5 people...
Well, I just got a reply to my Revolution devkit inquiry. Basicly it was "sod off, we only sell development kits to established developers". So, no Yaroze! for Nintendo. I'm sure Sony won't let the homebrew developers down at least.
-
FaZyCrUcK wrote:
Nice to see people taking an interest in the site, it's good to know I'm not the only one looking, hehe.
Check back soon, I have a ton of dev units on the way.
GDEV's
GBOXes
Brand new boxed DDH
NPDP Gang writers, etc etc
SN-TDEV would be nice but very expensive at the mo
Andy
Welcome to the site, try not to let the trolls put you off too much. Do you have any SDK's to go with the hardware?
@Adolescent
To break in, you pretty much need a demo running on some system to show off that you can actually do something then maybe they'll give you a license to actually port it over. You have to knock on alot of doors. Being a student at DigiPen also helps alot as Nintendo sponsors that place.
My friend is persuing a Master's at UMass-Dartmouth and they are studying the GC's caching.
-
adolescent wrote:
I'm sure Sony won't let the homebrew developers down at least.
WHAT!!! RU MUCKING FAD? Sony have let homebrew developers down every time. They offer the kit at inflated prices and with naff devware. PSP is just the latest example of hardware that could have given us a whole new generation of bedroom coders...but no! Try GP32X instead.
Sony care only for cash, make no mistake. They love proprietory media as you get to buy everything you own again, hence UMD! They make hardware that could be truly great at times but then only allow you to fully use it by buying more add-ons or modding. As for pro customers (like me *) they get to charge £70 per foot of cable because it has proprietory Sony plugs on each end.
:madashell: :madashell: :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
*DVD Author: Trained by Sony.
-
Yeah, I have a load of SDK's on the way too... the official Dolphin SDK, and a ProDG... Can't wait.
Thanks for the welcome!
Andy
-
Good point FaZyCrUcK...
.. :pint: :insane: :mickeymouse: :banana: :kitty: :juggler: :hat: :elvis: :afro: :crazy: :pint: ...
Welcome to the mad house.
-
FaZyCrUcK wrote:
Yeah, I have a load of SDK's on the way too... the official Dolphin SDK, and a ProDG... Can't wait.
Thanks for the welcome!
Andy
You're welcome!
What do you intend to do with it all?
-
Usually just collect, and tinker with the parts I understand. As I'm not too good with C (though i try) I usually can't do a great deal but it's always interesting to use official dev equipment, like the NR Writer which I got to work.
Also I collect stuff so I can document it on my site, as not many people know about it
Andy
-
Maybe we can eventually get AROS natively booting on the GC. Also, you should check out www.gcdev.com
-
Tripitaka wrote:
adolescent wrote:
I'm sure Sony won't let the homebrew developers down at least.
WHAT!!! RU MUCKING FAD? Sony have let homebrew developers down every time. They offer the kit at inflated prices and with naff devware. PSP is just the latest example of hardware that could have given us a whole new generation of bedroom coders...but no! Try GP32X instead.
Every time? Remember, Playstation had Net Yaroze! homebrew kit, Playstation 2 had PS2 Linux Kit for homebrew, Playstation 3 is rummored to support Linux development (or maybe with add-on).
Sony is the only company consistantly letting homebrew developers have affordable and available tools for their consoles.
It's Sony's right to lock out pirates and people using illegal copies of the PSP SDK. Nintendo and Microsoft do the same with their consoles. The GP2X only market is homebrew, since there are no commercial softwares for it.
-
Ha BL~~DY Ha, I think you miss the point. Yaroze was expensive for a couple of cables and a fuzzy black texture PS, required a PC and lacked many of the features the full Playstation developers' suite provided.
Linux on PS2 may well be welcome but the HDD included with the Linux Kit is not compatible with PlayStation 2 games, (reformatting the HDD with the utility disc provided with the retail HDD enables use with PlayStation 2 games but removes the Linux). It didn't use the DVD ROM drive either did it, hmm....I'll give it a 4.
However, an A1200 just required a copy of Blitz Basic to get most people going and you don't need to reformat a HDD to play games. Even the CD32 was more flexible than Linux PS2 for homebrew.
I would like to see a true homebrew system like the Amiga was. Lets face it, all you should need on an XBOX is a keyboard and some software, the rest is all in place.
It's not about the "interested" finding cheap kit to code with, they'll code anyway. It's about thousands of J Doe's who when bored of countless hours on GTA have a play with the SEUCK of the day and find they actually enjoyed CREATING something.
If it's in the box and 1% try it out then maybe 1% of them make fun games, on a system like PS2, GC or XBOX we gain a stack of great PD. The industry in turn gets some new ideas and potential future stars. Look how Team 17 started.
:-)
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Ha BL~~DY Ha, I think you miss the point. Yaroze was expensive for a couple of cables and a fuzzy black texture PS, required a PC and lacked many of the features the full Playstation developers' suite provided.
Linux on PS2 may well be welcome but the HDD included with the Linux Kit is not compatible with PlayStation 2 games, (reformatting the HDD with the utility disc provided with the retail HDD enables use with PlayStation 2 games but removes the Linux). It didn't use the DVD ROM drive either did it, hmm....I'll give it a 4.
However, an A1200 just required a copy of Blitz Basic to get most people going and you don't need to reformat a HDD to play games. Even the CD32 was more flexible than Linux PS2 for homebrew.
I would like to see a true homebrew system like the Amiga was. Lets face it, all you should need on an XBOX is a keyboard and some software, the rest is all in place.
It's not about the "interested" finding cheap kit to code with, they'll code anyway. It's about thousands of J Doe's who when bored of countless hours on GTA have a play with the SEUCK of the day and find they actually enjoyed CREATING something.
If it's in the box and 1% try it out then maybe 1% of them make fun games, on a system like PS2, GC or XBOX we gain a stack of great PD. The industry in turn gets some new ideas and potential future stars. Look how Team 17 started.
:-)
Ya know, that's what's missing from today's market. There are no Commodore 64's or Amiga 500's in today's market.
If someone release a "console" that could be "officially" expanded into a PC that people could write PD software for and do a couple of simple things like surf the web and check email, wouldn't that be neat? Really, that's all I'd like from an AOS port on GC. Run some games and do simple things. People forget that back then there work several different classes of computers: personal, workstation, mini and super... Now it seems it's only personal and super.
As a kid I could save up and get a C64 and later Amiga and when I was bored playing games, I did try my hand at programming. That was the appeal. It's not that simple today. As a 13 year-old, your mom would not buy you a new PC and let you do whatever you want to it. A product needs to come off as a mere toy, but offer possibilities to the curious child/teen...now how do you build a market around it in today's world?
Bundle it with AMOS!
-
Tripitaka wrote:
Ha BL~~DY Ha, I think you miss the point. Yaroze was expensive for a couple of cables and a fuzzy black texture PS, required a PC and lacked many of the features the full Playstation developers' suite provided.
Expensive?. $650 when the Playstation was $200 doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. But, of course it was stripped down. Who would pay for a full dev unit if the "homebrew" version was thousands cheaper and offered the same features. The developers I worked with in the past all used modified PS to test games. It was too risky to burn up a dev unit.
Linux on PS2 may well be welcome but the HDD included with the Linux Kit is not compatible with PlayStation 2 games, (reformatting the HDD with the utility disc provided with the retail HDD enables use with PlayStation 2 games but removes the Linux). It didn't use the DVD ROM drive either did it, hmm....I'll give it a 4.
You can use the DVD-ROM, don't know where you heard that. As for the HD, you are probably correct. But, unless you want to play FFX (or the other 2-3 HD games) that isn't a big deal. (I've never been asked to reformat mine)
However, an A1200 just required a copy of Blitz Basic to get most people going and you don't need to reformat a HDD to play games. Even the CD32 was more flexible than Linux PS2 for homebrew.
Are you BL~~DY mad? The PS2 + Linux kit has more memory, a HD, Ethernet, DVD-ROM, VGA output, USB, etc. all which the CD32 is lacking. The CD32 doesn't even come with a floppy drive or keyboard. To develop ON the CD32 you need an expensive add-on, or you need to use a seperate computer (hmm... one of the negatives you said about PS homebrew)
I agree about the A1200, but that's because it's a computer. (But, remember this entire thread is based on the delusion that the GCN can become a computer).
And, again say that you need to format the HDD to play games. This is not true. It is only true if you want to use the HDD with a HDD compatible game.
I would like to see a true homebrew system like the Amiga was.
Agreed. Like I said the PS3 looks promising if it comes with Linux like has been mentioned. Otherwise, people can always grab a PC (they probably already have) and start coding.
-
For when os4 on my beloved N64?????
-
_ThEcRoW wrote:
For when os4 on my beloved N64?????
Don't be silly... The N64 is a MIPS super-computer, not a PPC super-computer like the Gamecube. Although, because it's a MIPS super-computer, it can obviously run Irix, and even better than any SGI box, because it's from Nintendo. :crazy:
uh Nintendo kicks ass! Nintendo should buy SGI... :lol:
-
adolescent wrote:
_ThEcRoW wrote:
For when os4 on my beloved N64?????
Don't be silly... The N64 is a MIPS super-computer, not a PPC super-computer like the Gamecube. Although, because it's a MIPS super-computer, it can obviously run Irix, and even better than any SGI box, because it's from Nintendo. :crazy:
uh Nintendo kicks ass! Nintendo should buy SGI... :lol:
Well, if you know your Nintendo history, you will also recall that ArtX, the developers of the Flipper all-in-one GPU in the GC were former SGI employees. As you know ATI bought ArtX and I don't think even Nintendo can buy ATI.
But there's nothing worth buying of SGI now...all the useful people now work at ATI... ...and that's how ATI got into the console GPU business...look at them now!
-
lou_dias wrote:
Well, if you know your Nintendo history, you will also recall that ArtX, the developers of the Flipper all-in-one GPU in the GC were former SGI employees. As you know ATI bought ArtX and I don't think even Nintendo can buy ATI.
And SGI and Nintendo worked together on Project Reality which ended up producing the N64. And so on...
But there's nothing worth buying of SGI now...all the useful people now work at ATI... ...and that's how ATI got into the console GPU business...look at them now!
There's nothing to buy off of Amiga, Inc. yet you suggested it.
-
adolescent wrote:
There's nothing to buy off of Amiga, Inc. yet you suggested it.
If groups like the Bitmap Brothers are still in the business, then the Amiga name is still known.
It seems Sony and MS are crossing over into PC-land with the 360 and PS3's media capabilities and having a base and brand such as Amiga could lend Nintendo some credibility and headway in that area. Afterall, the Amiga was the first "multimedia PC". Convergence is coming. Nintendo's ingenuity, money, engineering and software is the kick in the pants that could revive this current pitiful existence...
That's my opinion. I'm sticking with it.
-
The fact that the Bitmap Brothers, Team 17, Factor5, Digital Illusions, etc. are still around has nothing to do with the current Amiga, Inc. It has everything to do with them developing good games (then AND now), and peoples willingness to buy them.
Don't give Amiga, Inc. credit for buying and sitting on a name. All they have to show for it is a batch of third party PocketPC games.
-
Right.
Which is why they need to get bought out and have the BRAND, which is what I was speaking of, re-established as an entertainment mecca.
-
adolescent wrote:
Expensive?. $650 when the Playstation was $200 doesn't seem like that much of a stretch.
-That's 325% of the console price, so for a similar idea on 360 you would be ok with over £900? Over the top for a new generation of bedroom coders methinks.
But, of course it was stripped down. Who would pay for a full dev unit if the "homebrew" version was thousands cheaper and offered the same features.
-Creating a new gen of bedroom coders requires thinking above that of short term cash gains from Dev units.
The developers I worked with in the past all used modified PS to test games. It was too risky to burn up a dev unit.
-If they took my approach you wouldn't have been so concerned.
Linux on PS2 may well be welcome but the HDD included with the Linux Kit is not compatible with PlayStation 2 games, (reformatting the HDD with the utility disc provided with the retail HDD enables use with PlayStation 2 games but removes the Linux). It didn't use the DVD ROM drive either did it, hmm....I'll give it a 4.
You can use the DVD-ROM, don't know where you heard that.
- If I got the DVD ROM thing wrong....Blame the wiki!
As for the HD, you are probably correct.
-I am.
But, unless you want to play FFX (or the other 2-3 HD games) that isn't a big deal. (I've never been asked to reformat mine)
-Fair point. That PS2 HDD didn't get much support did it.
However, an A1200 just required a copy of Blitz Basic to get most people going and you don't need to reformat a HDD to play games. Even the CD32 was more flexible than Linux PS2 for homebrew.
Are you BL~~DY mad? The PS2 + Linux kit has more memory, a HD, Ethernet, DVD-ROM, VGA output, USB, etc. all which the CD32 is lacking. The CD32 doesn't even come with a floppy drive or keyboard. To develop ON the CD32 you need an expensive add-on, or you need to use a seperate computer (hmm... one of the negatives you said about PS homebrew)
-UTTER TRIPE!!!You don't even need a CD32 if the game wbloads on 3.1 ROMS. I have loads of PD on CD that works great on a CD32 and was never written for it.
I agree about the A1200, but that's because it's a computer. (But, remember this entire thread is based on the delusion that the GCN can become a computer).
-It is a computer. It "computes", does it not? Delusion is a bit harsh maybe.
And, again say that you need to format the HDD to play games. This is not true. It is only true if you want to use the HDD with a HDD compatible game.
-That is what I meant.
I would like to see a true homebrew system like the Amiga was.
Agreed. Like I said the PS3 looks promising if it comes with Linux like has been mentioned. Otherwise, people can always grab a PC (they probably already have) and start coding.
-All said and done the PS3 is starting to give me some real hope now, 60Gb HDD, linux OS, maybe .....but I don't think anything short of the Amiga "proper computer/game machine" fusion will do to get everday gamers finding the fun in creating homebrew.
-
Vindication: Zelda to use Revmote when run on Revolution
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=6122
Though I still would believe Nintendo could release a wired version of the Revmote that plugs into a GC port (like the first devkit did) so that GC owners don't feel slighted. They could even use this on future cross-over GC/Revolution games. Again, it could be a situation where polygon counts and stuff like that go up when run on Revolution hardware vs. GC hardware.
I think Revolution hardware will be exploited instantly due to it's 100% HARDWARE backwards compatibility with the GC. Shortly there after, the USB ports and SD card ports will be exposed. If Nintendo really wanted to save money, they would just include SD card adapters for the GC memory card ports...this means I could order another batch of the SD Gecko's and make even more $$$ as my supply is down to about 10.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I think Revolution hardware will be exploited instantly due to it's 100% HARDWARE backwards compatibility with the GC.
I don't think so. I don't think Nintendo would risk leaving the PSO back door in. AFAIK, the Action Replay isn't an officially licensed software so there's no reason for Nintendo to make sure it runs either. Anyway, it's easy enough to add an abstraction layer when running in GCN mode so even if existing hacks worked, they could only access what they could on the GCN.
-
adolescent wrote:
I don't think so. I don't think Nintendo would risk leaving the PSO back door in. AFAIK, the Action Replay isn't an officially licensed software so there's no reason for Nintendo to make sure it runs either. Anyway, it's easy enough to add an abstraction layer when running in GCN mode so even if existing hacks worked, they could only access what they could on the GCN.
If Nintendo switched hardware partners like Sony and MS, I would agree with you. For all intends and purposes, Revolution is to the GC what the A1200 is to the A500. Revolution will have double the bus speed, double the cpu clock speed, triple the memory and new api's to handle the extra functionality of revolution. I expect the wireless ethernet interface will be seamless and just act like the GC has the broad band adapter with double the thru-put (54Mb/s vs. 27Mb/s). Serial ports 1 becomes USB ports 1 & 2. One thing Revolution will lack is the hi-speed parrallel port... No GBA player...unless they do something with the USB ports
Again, the system being only 2+ times more powerful than the GC means the sandbox method will not be used.
On a brighter note... If the GC pumped out 15 million in-game polygons and now Revolution may possible do 30 million, I won't complain graphically. I believe most of the highest quality PS2 titles did about 10 million and the Xbox around 18 million. Hopefully the 3MB of texture cache will also atleast double.
Oh, another reason I believe the built-in wi-fi 802.11g will act just like a 2x BBA is that Nintendo is claiming 100% GC backwards compaability...and it wouldn't look good if you couldn't have a Mario Kart:Double Dash LAN-party. That would just be wrong! :D
-
Running your own code on the GC is now a cheap as $15.49 + shipping:
http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=6409
you can burn your own bootable discs with the information on this page:
http://www.gc-linux.org/wiki/Main_Page
-
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/11/wii-first-a-symphony-now-opera/
A console with a web browser...now why didn't I think of...oh wait...!
...and look - you don't need a hard drive...who knew? Who would have thunk it?
ps,
Yes, the name sucks!
-
@diaz
Don't know how Opera on the Wii and DS gets you any closer to AOS4 on the GCN, but ok. (Or, should I just say Whoopii? :lol:)
-
>Under the DMCA, releasing a commercial product that loads by bypassing the Nintendo's bootloader protection would be illegal.)
More evidence of our slide into fascism.
-
It's nice to see you are still dyslexic and fail to spell my name correctly yet again.
What you really are failing to see is a market for such things. This stopped being about OS4 a long time ago. After having tried AROS-Max on my PC, I'm all for AROS.
Having Opera run even on a Nintendo DS and Wii just proves you don't need a hard drive and 256MB of RAM minimum to run such things. Browser cache was nice when 97.5% of all people on the internet were using 14.4k modems but it's un-necesary today with broadband.
I can envision Nintendo offering a bluetooth keyboard that will work with the browser. Or even as an addon for the Wii-mote. Now if some clever developer would create media-player software to play media on a DVD-R/RW, USB flash drive, SD card or even a USB radio tuner, I could replace my car stereo with it and be good to go.
PS,
The car is home: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072050.html
-
@diaz
Ok, so now it's now "If you can put opera on it, you can put AROS" instead of the tired old "If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4". :crazy:
(BTW, ever thought that it is you that spells your name wrong?)
-
@lou_dias
As a 13 year-old, your mom would not buy you a new PC and let you do whatever you want to it
Depends on demographics e.g. kids in private schools with laptop PCs.
-
ps3 ps3 PS3!!!
Wahoo.... PS3 & AMIGA :love:
-
adolescent wrote:
@diaz
Ok, so now it's now "If you can put opera on it, you can put AROS" instead of the tired old "If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4". :crazy:
(BTW, ever thought that it is you that spells your name wrong?)
It's seems all your comments about "you can't do 'x' on a console" continue to fall apart...and...
Once again you put words in my mouth and continue to ignore facts like the correct spelling of my name. 'Diaz' is a common last name for hispanic people. I am Portuguese and while you will find that spelling among some Portuguese due to it's proximity to Spain...the more common name is 'Dias'. To further educate you - the Portuguese people are not considered hispanic. The term 'hispanic' is clearly defined as referring to people from Spain or other Spanish speaking nations in the Americas.
When are you going to grow out of your 'adolescent' stage? Due trolls ever grow out of that stage?
-
lou_dias wrote:
It's seems all your comments about "you can't do 'x' on a console" continue to fall apart...and...
Ok, what does Opera on the Wii and DS have to do with the GCN (even running AROS) at all? You can run Mozilla on the GCN under Linux NOW I'd imagine. But, it's still not even comparable to even the most modest of desktop PC.
(I don't think I ever said you needed a HD to use a web browser... even WebTV did this back in the 90s with a 33.6 modem! But, then again, I wouldn't try to make a WebTV box into a computer, even though it has a 64bit RISC CPU :oops:)
None of my arguments about technical limitations of the GCN have fallen apart. From the lack of mass storage, to the slow shared bus, to the insurmountable memory limitation.
-
What do you think has more memory - a Gamecube or a Nintendo DS?
:rtfm:
Yeah, that's what I thought.
It's not the technical limitations of the Gamecube that's the problem, it's the mental limitations of people like you.
-
Don't have anything to do with this.
Not gonna happen. :-D
Might as well throw in the idea to put the Amiga OS on an xbox.
Not gonna happen. :-D
Don't be cheap and buy an Amiga or use WinUAE.
Problem solved. :-D :-)
P.S. No flame please. Only stating the obvious. :-)
-
@kd7ota
Actually, now that I've tried Aros-Max...I'm just waiting for the SFS filesystem to be native to it and then I will do a native install to a dedicated hard drive.
...since Wii will have a browser, it can fulfill 90% of my goals for AROS on the GC, which was mobile web-surfing and email. All it's missing is a media player. Add that and it can replace my car stereo completely (still need the stereo as an amp for the speakers...).
In fact, I think I can officially declare this thread dead. Nintendo seems to be embracing the openess of the internet where as MS and Sony are simply looking to sell you media through their content delivery system at a price.
-
Maybe you will get your GC aros port kicked off now that the efika bounty is set.
-
Oh my god!. Still this post already live? :-o
-
Argh! Well, it had died peacefully until koaftder resurrected it!!! :crazy:
- Ali
-
I started a more appropriate thread in the AROS forum...already OT opinions are flaring...
ps,
Now what was it I said about GC work done "today" (over a year and a half ago) would carry over to the Wii?
-
Given that this thread is about consoles and crap:
I have been having a blast with my xbox360 and XNA these few days. Never used c# before, but within an hour i was banging a few dozen sprites around the screen and making use of the gamepad one onthe 360 with xna.
-
I made a chee-z game in VB.net 2003 using managed DirectX 9.0. It's just 2D. Yeah, sprites are ridiculously simple and seemingly infinite on it.
Problem, you just tap the space bar and 20 bullets fly out in a split second. I'm using DirectInput....so I need to buffer some things an limit how many shots can be fired in a timeframe.
It's simple, 2 "ships" start in opposite corners. One just chases you like a homing missle. Collision detection works there. Haven't added the bullets to the detection list yet... I could email it to you.
I have the XNA kit as well, also VB.net '05 Express. Anything you can do in C# can be done in VB.
Did a small business project for a client. Haven't touched anything other than that in a month. Now I'm just torn between playing WoW and Wii. :roll:
-
LouDias wins! The new amiga looks an awful lot like a game cube. LOL
-
koaftder wrote:
LouDias wins! The new amiga looks an awful lot like a game cube. LOL
Hmmm....the Minimig board is about that size isn't it...
Anyway,
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/14/wii-twilight-princess-hack-gets-sd-support/
Now you can launch your own code right from within a "channel" on the Wii menu running in native Wii mode...
-
@lou_dias
Cool news about the Wii hacking.
I hope you now know this Wii/Gamecube with OS4 idea will not be possible, even with this new hack. I sincerely hope you know this.
-
HenryCase wrote:
@lou_dias
Cool news about the Wii hacking.
I hope you now know this Wii/Gamecube with OS4 idea will not be possible, even with this new hack. I sincerely hope you know this.
AROS would be...
-
lou_dias wrote:
AROS would be...
Correct. Not really a shortage of hardware options for AROS though.
-
HenryCase wrote:
lou_dias wrote:
AROS would be...
Correct. Not really a shortage of hardware options for AROS though.
No...but the Wii is interesting and AROS on the Wii released to the homebrew community could be "interesting". If they had an OS to call their own...who knows what could happen with future AROS development...and support...
I would personally like a Wii installed in my car with a real media player with output going to a 7" widescreen LCD and the sound integrated into my car's stereo... I could switch back to Wii mode and surf the web from Wi-Fi hot spots...
Newer Wii's support dual-layered DVD's where as older ones are having problems with Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the first dual-layered Wii game...but Nintendo is offereing to replace the drives/lenses...
-
lou_dias wrote:
If they had an OS to call their own...
They already do (i.e. version(s) of Linux).
lou_dias wrote:
who knows what could happen with future AROS development...and support...
Not enough new development will occur compared to the amount of work required to port IMO. AROS already runs on x86, you're not going to get many Gamecube or Wii owners that don't already own a PC.
lou_dias wrote:
I would personally like a Wii installed in my car with a real media player with output going to a 7" widescreen LCD and the sound integrated into my car's stereo... I could switch back to Wii mode and surf the web from Wi-Fi hot spots...
That sounds cool. You didn't mention AROS there, but just to let you know AROS would not be a good fit for that setup at the moment (doesn't have many programs that would be useful in a car, like a decent media player, but I'm sure it will get these apps sometime).
-
@lou_dias,
Install a x86 MacMini in your car instead. It will run much more OSes and programs that you will need and/or want. I have done it in my car, but have it out at the moment to install a good DC to DC converter with a wiring harness and automatic switch for the MacMini. Combined with a USB GPS antennae it works great for Navigation via Windows as there is no good navigation software for the Mac that I am aware of.
-
amigadave wrote:
@lou_dias,
Install a x86 MacMini in your car instead. It will run much more OSes and programs that you will need and/or want. I have done it in my car, but have it out at the moment to install a good DC to DC converter with a wiring harness and automatic switch for the MacMini. Combined with a USB GPS antennae it works great for Navigation via Windows as there is no good navigation software for the Mac that I am aware of.
Got pics?
The only problem I have with Apple is...
My friend had a G5 2.0GHz Mac with OSX Tiger and 1.5GB of memory and that thing takes forever to boot...
I don't like linux.
Windows has a sorta long boot issue as well, not to mention the shutdown issue.
I would like something that can just be turned off.
-
lou_dias wrote:
I would like something that can just be turned off.
Why not try an using a motherboard with an embedded OS?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operating_systems#Embedded