Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: MiAmigo on January 24, 2005, 01:28:08 AM
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Just wondering. There are a lot of ideas and opinions posted here day after day after day. Some are pretty good, some not so. People are so passionate about the Amiga, they sometimes forget common courtesy, and that each of us is a HUMAN BING on the other side of the computer screen. Now, having said all that, I just wonder, are we doing any thing good, or useful, or productive here, or are we all just venting? Anybody 'out there' in the industry taking our ideas, gripes and suggestions, and putting them to any use, or are we just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments? Which is it?
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MiAmigo wrote:
...and that each of us is a HUMAN BING on the other side of the computer screen.
:-D
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I recall a post once that may help answer your question. My memory isn't perfect so I'll just try to paraphrase the subject. It was by an amiga developer who said that he and others frequently read, followed and posted here and on other amiga sites. In the past they would contribute and participate in threads, but eventually some people would start finger pointing, flaming and harassing. So in the interest of peace and progress some of them "dropped out". They still read and pay attention, but are in more of a stealth mode I guess. Of course other devlopers do still participate and others may use aliases, but be assured they are paying attention to good theads and ideals.
Plaz
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Despite the fact any platform is defined by its software, Amigans spend way too much time arguing about form factors and technical supiriority.
Meanwhile, software platforms like Linux, Java, and arguably even Windows (since MS doesn't make hardware), have taken over practically everything, leaving Apple as the only true hardware company capable of surviving in the PC desktop industry. Even Apple, though, must have a damned good OS and seek profits from other markets to survive, like iPod.
If AmigaDE ever makes its debut and delivers its promise to run on anything, Amiga might make it back into the mainstream market. Otherwise, the Amiga is doomed to be what it has been since Commodore went under -- a hobby plaform that will continue to dwindle.
Yeah, we've actually got AmigaOnes and OS4 is around the corner. What will we run on it? 5-year-old apps running on 68K emulation. It would be nice if those good ideas involved designing new tools and apps, rather then what the next Amiga motherboard will look like.
Very few ideas I've seen around here are applicable to today's computer market. Unless someone's idea involves rounding up hundreds of millions of dollars to make a new hardware platform that must be redeveloped every year, the only thing that can really be done is to get AmigaOS running on stock hardware, rebuild a small dev community, and then move on to other hardware options as the software starts to materialize.
Never underestimate the power of a geek with too much free time. But, you can't make software if a platform is too expensive and too hard to acquire. :-)
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Waccoon wrote:
Despite the fact any platform is defined by its software, Amigans spend way too much time arguing about form factors and technical supiriority.
Meanwhile, software platforms like Linux, Java, and arguably even Windows (since MS doesn't make hardware), have taken over practically everything, leaving Apple as the only true hardware company capable of surviving in the PC desktop industry. Even Apple, though, must have a damned good OS and seek profits from other markets to survive, like iPod.
If AmigaDE ever makes its debut and delivers its promise to run on anything, Amiga might make it back into the mainstream market. Otherwise, the Amiga is doomed to be what it has been since Commodore went under -- a hobby plaform that will continue to dwindle.
Yeah, we've actually got AmigaOnes and OS4 is around the corner. What will we run on it? 5-year-old apps running on 68K emulation. It would be nice if those good ideas involved designing new tools and apps, rather then what the next Amiga motherboard will look like.
Very few ideas I've seen around here are applicable to today's computer market. Unless someone's idea involves rounding up hundreds of millions of dollars to make a new hardware platform that must be redeveloped every year, the only thing that can really be done is to get AmigaOS running on stock hardware, rebuild a small dev community, and then move on to other hardware options as the software starts to materialize.
Never underestimate the power of a geek with too much free time. But, you can't make software if a platform is too expensive and too hard to acquire. :-)
Hmm, some valid points here, but I think you strayed just a teensie weensie bit off topic. :-) Ain't this another fight, on another thread, possibly instigated by yours truly? :angel:
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MiAmigo.
Yours is a tough question to answer on a lot of different levels. Most of the problems exist because over the years, some in this "community" (phrased lightly) have simply become too emotionally involved in what could be and have forgotten what's really important.
The Amiga, whether you're talking the hardware, the software, or the whole package, is nothing but a hobby. Hobbies by nature are supposed to be fun. It's marginally acceptable for someone to have pride in their hobby, but there are those here who go too far in defense of their chosen platform. That applies to BOTH sides of the coin. Trolling by negativity has become accepted methods, and in fact no one really understands (or is willing to accept) why such activities are harmful by nature to both others and the community..
I will grant you that it was a long, tormented road to get from the caring, compassionate community we used to be to the unhappy dissidents who seem to remain. Most "real people" have long-since given up on the Amiga and moved on to other platforms.
Elaborating on "tormented roads", all of this started before most of the remaining miscreants even owned Amigas. In the beginning, we were all unified. We all had one single platform. There were 10x more of us, and we were happy as bugs in warm spaces to have them, play with them, expanded, and tinker with them. The Amiga literally covered up our entire lives with games, fun, and friends.
I know I'm very badly over-simplifying, but.... :
In 1994, assaulted by both market pressures and marketing incompetence, Commodore died. Some would argue that this was the death of the Amiga platform -- and on some levels they would be right.
In 1997/1998, hope came to light after the cadaver dogs were run off, leaving Gateway as the official owner of the name brand. More hope was given when they actually presented us with a future which -- at the time -- would have put us back in front of even the PC's of the world. We all got emotionally invested with Gateway's vision of the future. When the powers that be got tired of dumping money into the idea, they decided to discard the Amiga. This marks pretty much the second time that the Amiga community members felt betrayed and crushed. (Personally speaking, I mark the Gateway era as the last good time of hope for the Amiga).
Skip to 2000.
At the 2000 Saint Louis show (I believe it was StL. Hell, it was 5 years ago), Bill McEwen (a former Gateway consultant) appears before the remaining faithful and announces that they have "bought the rights" to the Amiga and they have lots of ideas (what have become known as "fleecyisms") about the future of the Amiga, which do not in any way involve the desktop. In other words (theirs), "AmigaOS is dead", but they would be happy to sell us an underpowered, overpriced PC to develop DE applications on. During an impromtu meeting with the UGN, McEwen -- in response to a question from a UGN representative -- confirms that they're going to build Amiga Inc with the intention of "getting bought out". Strike two for the remaining Amiga faithful who left that show (or attended virtually through the UGN) pretty much scratching their heads and confused.
During the period of 2001 through 2002 comes the big tech market crash, followed by many little scandals and rumors involving Amiga Inc. Rumors of bankruptcy. Rumors of evictions, rumors of unpaid employees. Infamous $50 coupons/t-shirts/whateverthehell that was were paid for by the community, and McEwen even hints that we've paid his rent for the month at the Sacramento show.
The Amiga community begins to literally hate "BillandFleecyCo" and even the name "Fleecy" begins to take on a more appropriate feeling because there's no hint of activity within Amiga Inc. Not by way of computer, Operating system, or even the damnable t-shirts. Continual neglect and even intentional disregard towards the community by Amiga Inc instills even more hatred and mistrust in the hearts of the remaining Amiga faithful. The online community begins to really dig in and rebel against McEwen and company as a direct result of Amiga Inc's actions during this time.
AmigaOS 4.0 and the AmigaOne are announced, but they have nothing to do with Amiga Inc other than the name. "DE is our only future concern" is spoken by McEwen. Sigh...
2002/2003 -- Enter the next self-proclaimed savior -- Bill Buck.
I can't say much about Bill Buck because my own history is smudged by my own stupid decision to follow the false savior. Some (usually trolls themselves) will now invariably take this opportunity to attack me yet again for my mistakes in the past. I've already apologized enough for the part I've played there, so to those people... Sod off.
Suffice to say that Genesi appears on the scene and we get to witness entertaining lawsuits against Amiga Inc (towards whom a LOT of us were angry at the time).. This marks the first real demonstrable time when we're all turned into trolls which could be best described as "armchair lawyers", trying the case in public on forums.
We're also given by Genesi, the promise of a new and exciting Amiga-esque future firmly as a desktop machine. No waffling, no promises of a "fleecy future", just the desktop that a lot of us had wanted. Hell, while legally dubious, they even had a team which wasn't instantly impeachable by the scandals of the past (like Amiga Inc was at the time).
The Amiga "community" divides at the base level between those who fervently supported Amiga Inc, those who followed Genesi, and even those who tried desperately to accept both as legitimate paths to the Amiga future. For the first time, the Amiga community was fully at war with itself. Most of our reasonable members have washed their hands of it and moved to the PC or even Macintosh.
2004 -- More legal wishwashyness goes on with Amiga Inc and KMOS. Most of us don't even care any more. Those you hear {bleep}ing about it are those who've chosen "sides" and fervently defend their side, thinking it's perfectly fine to do so by trashing the "other side". The online community splits into very strict lines with sites spread between;
"Those who believe in the true Amiga future"
"Those who believe that licensing a trademark doesn't mean you're the only possibility".
"Those who're willing to accept all paths, as long as SOMETHING -- hell, ANYTHING happens."
In short, the Amiga "community" as it once was, is dead.
2005 -- Amiga Inc / KMOS is deathly silent (save for t-shirts), Genesi is reportedly bankrupt, MorphOS has been abandoned by Genesi, the MorphOS team is rebelling for non-payment, and the Amiga community is still fervently feeding upon itself. Certain members of both "sides" are actively practicing "Guerilla marketing" by trashing each other publicly, both directly and indirectly.
In the end, I would bet that less than 5% of you experienced what the real Amiga community was like in the beginning. I doubt that any of you could really ever understand why I would have gone out of the way to start this site. It used to be that the Amiga community was about friendship, and it didn't matter whether you were in Los Angeles California, or St. Petersburg Russia.
In the beginning, we all had one goal, one love, one thing in common. The Amiga. This site remains SIMPLY for the hope that we can get there again, somehow.
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Hey Wayne!!! You forgot AROS!! :-P
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editing my own reply : Emotionally involved after writing that hour long post. Inadvertant trolling by negativity.
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Not sure, really. In the beginning, just months after C= turned turtle, the bigwigs would stress on every occasion that the major strength of the Amiga was its community. I even vaguely recall that a user platform was created so that the ew company would have a single body to deal with. But that effort soon tore itself apart because everyone had ideas of their own. And the situation became explosive when MorphOS and the Pegasos appeared on-scene. Most people with good ideas left eons ago, and all that is left is a bunch of die-hards who cling to the platform for a number of reasons, none of which will make someone a lot of money.
To be honest, if I were in the industry, I would try to make sure I didn't upset anyone: politely accept the ideas, and respond that they are 'under consideration'. You really cannot do more than that. After all, it is you who is spending all the money to create the program, not the person who sent the idea. And to be very honest, I doubt there will be many good ideas left in the community. I have seen precious few, at least on these boards. Most good ideas are good programming habits nowadays. And other good ideas are likely to have been implemented already. Software-wise the new Amigas are not a testing ground for the cutting edge in technology (I wouldn't even know what the cutting edge in software development *is*) so you can quite easily rely on what has been done already. It's cheaper too.
In other words, I believe you hit the nail right on the head when you wrote: I believe we are just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments. And we all know it :crazy:.
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Cymric wrote:
In other words, I believe you hit the nail right on the head when you wrote: I believe we are just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments. And we all know it :crazy:.
I meant to also add that I agree with this..
edited to rephrase :
I also agree that while the Amiga community was dying on it's own due to neglect, the virulent "The Art of War" form of promotion injected by Bill Buck (and supported by others) into the fray is exactly what turned it from a morose death-watch into an unneccessary and stupid war.
Wayne
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bloodline wrote:
Hey Wayne!!! You forgot AROS!! :-P
You know, the more I see of Bloodline, the more I believe he suffers from a mild and benign form of Tourette syndrome. Everytime someone mentions something, Bloodline goes 'AROS!'. There was the open sourcing of Ambient a few days ago: Bloodline goes 'AROS port!' Someone asks after which system to buy: Bloodline is the first to mention, you've guessed it: 'AROS!'.
I can picture it now: Bloodline snuggles with his GF (you do have one, don't you?) and she asks him if there is another in his life. Bloodline automatically goes 'AROS!'---and is then politely (:-P) requested to sleep on the couch for the next few days. After Bloodline's time in the moral realm has come to an end, the Great Sock calls upon him and asks him if Bloodline ever worshipped a different god. Bloodline: 'AROS!'. Upon which the Sock casts him into the deepest levels of Sock Hell, filled with sweaty, unwashed sport socks, left to brew and fester and smell...
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Interesting hypothesis; I wonder if he pronounces it in the same way as Father Jack? :-)
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I can picture it now: Bloodline snuggles with his GF (you do have one, don't you?) and she asks him if there is another in his life. Bloodline automatically goes 'AROS!'---and is then politely () requested to sleep on the couch for the next few days.
Um... My (long suffering) girlfriend (of the non woolen type) has threatened on many occations to "thow that bloody computer of of the F**king window".
After Bloodline's time in the moral realm has come to an end, the Great Sock calls upon him and asks him if Bloodline ever worshipped a different god. Bloodline: 'AROS!'. Upon which the Sock casts him into the deepest levels of Sock Hell, filled with sweaty, unwashed sport socks, left to brew and fester and smell...
Ahhh, the good old sock... never fails to satisfy :hug:
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I'm probably going to ruin the joke by asking this, but who is Father Jack? :-?
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Cymric wrote:
I'm probably going to ruin the joke by asking this, but who is Father Jack? :-?
Father Ted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Ted)
Father Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Jack_Hackett)
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Why is it that you guys invariably hijack every single topic and take it completely off-kilter?
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Wayne wrote:
Why is it that you guys invariably hijack every single topic and take it completely off-kilter?
Um... Sorry :-(
-Edit- In my defence, I did start my 64bit thread in the Coffee house even though it's a technical subject, I did that because I knew it would become a fun thread, of little use to those outside of the loop.
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@Wayne:
You have just witnessed 'forum dynamics'. Stopping it means hard moderation, and restriction of discussion to informative, sensible and serious topics only. That would more or less do this site in, because we just saw that there is very little information left in this community. Have you never witnessed at parties how discussions take off somewhere and end up in the most bizarre territory? (I remember an episode where we came up with paintballing with abandoned tanks. Don't ask.) Same with forums.
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Yeah... I think we are doing some good. I don't think anyone out there in the industry is doing anything for us however, but people within certainly are.
I get the impression that the community is doing a lot. I think that it's only recently (maybe in the last 1-2 years) that people have realised that no company is going to do very much. People are now coding, setting up support and resource websites.. lots of people in the community are working to help the Amiga.
The OS4 and MOS projects are being developed by Amigans and older Amiga developers, recently a community-driven OpenOffice porting project begun. There are some cool homegrown products such as Hollywood.
Wayne reckons the community has degenerated, but I think that even though trolling is still commonplace on the forums, there are still plenty of cool welcoming communities in usergroups and some IRC channels.
Many of us are working on stuff to that we think will help the platform. I am hopeful, that a year from now, we'll have what we'll need to approach more mainstream markets and attract people from the outside that is, an office suite may be well on its way, there are a few brand new modern candidates for a capable web browser in development, and with the software there.
I think the next year is going to be one of hard work and development for us. Hopefully in 12-18 months we'll have what software we need to be a real option as a computing platform. All we need is for someone to push the platform commercially...
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Cymric wrote:
@Wayne:
You have just witnessed 'forum dynamics'. Stopping it means hard moderation, and restriction of discussion to informative, sensible and serious topics only. That would more or less do this site in, because we just saw that there is very little information left in this community. Have you never witnessed at parties how discussions take off somewhere and end up in the most bizarre territory? (I remember an episode where we came up with paintballing with abandoned tanks. Don't ask.) Same with forums.
Perhaps off-topic banter can be restricted to the Coffee-house? Of course, it's human nature to go off on tangents, but this was a serious topic, and these days there seems to be no shortage of other frivolous topics to talk about socks or Bloodline's girlfriend! If you're at a party and there is a serious subject being discussed, then it's considered very rude to change the subject before it was finished being discussed ;-)
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Wowsers! That's a LOT to think about! :cry:
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Wayne wrote:
I also agree that while the Amiga community was dying on it's own due to neglect, the virulent "The Art of War" form of promotion injected by Bill Buck (and supported by others) into the fray is exactly what turned it from a morose death-watch into an unneccessary and stupid war.
I think you give Bill just to much credit on this one...
"Art of War" promotion, aka trolling&FUDing by corporate head-nuts and their minions was pretty much common long before BB took part.
Just look through the ann.lu-archives up to 2001 and you'll see what I mean. It's offcourse no secret that adding BB into this mix meant hitting critical mass, but you can't blame the last neutron any more than the other 400 trillion that form the nuklear explosion.
I must admit that I have absolutly no clue what went on online prior to 1998 or so (internet was danm expensive round here back than), but for me the troubles really started when GateWay announced they would slap "Amiga" on something completly different. It just wasn't clear anymore what Amiga was, and from thereon you had companies and groups each following their own paths and ideas (which often turned out to be just fantasy or scams).
Before that everybody agreed on that "we" wanted an A5000. There might have been discussions wether this should have AA,Nyx or just a PCI-GFX card, wether it should use PPC or maybe alpha, but the direction was clear.
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I think you give Bill just to much credit on this one...
Please don't misunderstand. I do not intend to suggest in any way that Bill Buck is solely responsible for all the problems in this community. I am in fact trying to say that Amiga Inc did dig their own very deep hole with the community. They did it through incompetence and outright trying to tell us what we wanted when we cried for a new Amiga.
However, I think you said it better when you elaborated that the moment when Buck and his trolling marketing tactics arrived was when the problems we had as a community hit "critical mass". Suddenly, rather than everyone having the unified goal of wanting a new Amiga but being pissed at Amiga Inc, we were now given a choice, which was to either continue being mad at no progress, or to "follow the pretty butterfly".
In my opinion (even though I'm hoping I can say it correctly) *THAT* is the moment when everything changed for the worst for the Amiga community. From that moment on, there were two base factions in the community who literally were at war with each other. Each faction GLADLY forgetting that the other group were -- at one point -- friends.
Wayne
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In the end, I would bet that less than 5% of you experienced what the real Amiga community was like in the beginning. I doubt that any of you could really ever understand why I would have gone out of the way to start this site. It used to be that the Amiga community was about friendship, and it didn't matter whether you were in Los Angeles California, or St. Petersburg Russia.
I don't know... I think there's probably more than 5%. But Then again, the ones who have been around forever are the people that mostly stay in the technical forums and ask/answer questions about classic hardware.
There IS still a faction of people who are waiting around for the Amiga to "die" so we can get back to enjoying our Amigas, much like people are enjoying their 8 bit'ers like the C64.
I think Amiga.org serves a very valuable purpose in keeping these people together. Despite the occasional flamewar, it's one of the few sites that has consistantly offered a realistic view of the future, as well as solid technical information.
From a collectors standpoint, Amiga.org is very valuable. It is visited by some of the best technical "Amiga fans" on the web, including several of the key players in Amiga's development. I wish I had a resource half this strong for information on my old SGIs. :-)
(And, I give my apologies for the occasional outburst I have regarding future Amigas. Hey, you should kind of expect anyone named Ilwrath to uncloak, char-broil a few things, and disappear again... it's in my nature. ;-) )
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I just want to ask, do we HAVE to be "doing something" tangible here? I read Amiga.org everyday, but I don't always post. Most of the time I hit forums too late and somebody has already stated the same thing I would say. But it is not because I feel like I personally need to be accomplishing anything, I just like to read about what others are doing and occasionally throw in anything I might know to help out. Thats enough for me. I think some of the people on here are real characters and can be funny as hell and then there are those that are overly sensitive. Everybody is who they are. Still, I think it is fun to come on and read the happenings of the day. If one person comes on needing help with their A500 they haven't touched in 12 years and they get their question answered, isn't that doing something? I certainly don't consider it a waste time, does anybody else? Now whether or not we are helping "move the platform forward" or not depends on the person and their personal views and what ideas/companies they support. I don't blame anybody to choosing one over another. That is no different that the Win vs Linux vs Mac argument. Use what works for you.
I will now go back to my usual viewing position in the shadows.
edit*** booya 200th post! :-D
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My sentiments exactly JetFireDX. This is just a hobby. I could care less what happens to the new breed of Amiga's (Pegasos/A1). The real Amiga's are the classic Amigas...thats what this site is about.. a bunch of us Amiga fanatics hanging out, talking about what we're doing with our classic. If something new happens to be developed for our classic system, great, if not..we'll continue on with what we have. C=64 users are a perfect example (like me! LOL) of continuing on despite of technological advances. hehe
-Alex
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Alex.
Ding, ding, ding.... I knew there was a reason I liked you....
Wayne
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JetFireDX wrote:
I just want to ask, do we HAVE to be "doing something" tangible here? I read Amiga.org everyday, but I don't always post. Most of the time I hit forums too late and somebody has already stated the same thing I would say. But it is not because I feel like I personally need to be accomplishing anything, I just like to read about what others are doing and occasionally throw in anything I might know to help out. Thats enough for me. I think some of the people on here are real characters and can be funny as hell and then there are those that are overly sensitive. Everybody is who they are. Still, I think it is fun to come on and read the happenings of the day. If one person comes on needing help with their A500 they haven't touched in 12 years and they get their question answered, isn't that doing something? I certainly don't consider it a waste time, does anybody else? Now whether or not we are helping "move the platform forward" or not depends on the person and their personal views and what ideas/companies they support. I don't blame anybody to choosing one over another. That is no different that the Win vs Linux vs Mac argument. Use what works for you.
I will now go back to my usual viewing position in the shadows.
edit*** booya 200th post! :-D
Since I'm relatively new to the Amiga.org scene, AND I was (and am) one of the original old-time Amiga owners, I think that qualifies me to speak from both sides of the story - so to speak. As a 'newbie' returning to the Amiga scene after many, many years, I was able to get lots of fast, friendly help, and advice from many of the posters here, that was extremely helpful, and really saved me a lot of time and head scratching (kudos here to my friend redrumloa, who spent way more time helping me, and advising me, than I deserved!). I was also able to learn stuff about the Amiga that I actually never knew - I don't think there's any other 'dead' platform that has such a vast, and still potent and alive support network, especially and including the Aminet archive. And, the coolest thing, most of the support (and software) is free. So, in that sense, yes, the community is very, very supportive, and even productive. But, on the other hand...
I've noticed a certain element of 'negativity' that, well-reflected on, and documented here, can't do anything, but, in the long run, tear the community down, which is what prompted me to write the original post. Now, truth to tell, some of the negative aspects of this forum, are actually common to almost all Internet-based forums and interactions: running the full gamut from extreme apathy (paradoxically, since it takes effort to post and read posts), to extremely passionate opinions concerning hardware and software, bordering on hostility, and astonishing rudeness. Because of the nature of the forum form (basically, I can't see you, and you can't see me) people tend to be more willing to be rude and negative, not only with long-time online friends, but, even with complete strangers. I've seen this phenomenon with the online gaming community as well - the lack of direct human contact tends to breed 'bad' behavior, in some people.
But the issues of this forum run deeper. There is a great sense of hurt, betrayal, and pain, evident even in those posts that are from the so-called ‘apathists’ (again, a contradiction of actions and terms, since, if you are apathetic, why bother to post). Just ‘whom’ has created this sense of betrayal is not really clear, at least, not to me. That’s because I, personally, came back to the Amiga for reasons somewhat different than those who actually ‘stayed’ with the Amiga, back during the Great Exodus to the PC platform. For me, and some like me, the original concept of the Amiga is forever frozen in time. I can’t help but still remember the Amiga for what it once was – almost like the memory of the childhood sweetheart that is jarringly different from what that person might actually look like ‘right now’. So, every one of my posts (especially, it seems, the most inflammatory, and controversial ones) are all based on that older image of the Amiga, and, of course, my humble projections of what it ‘could’ have been. In this, I have remained consistent throughout. IMHO, I think that those of the community who stayed around, and have been around since Day One, may have lost some of that original ‘child-like’ awe, and enthusiasm for the platform, and have now become disappointed, saddened, and embittered, (jaded) by all the corporate shenanigans cataloged here in these posts. I certainly know what they feel, since, when I was deep in the PC community, I’d hear, from time to time, how ‘such and such’ a company was going to resurrect the Amiga, gotten excited about it, only to be disappointed time and time again when they managed to fumble the ball over and over again. And, adding insult to injury, and salt to the wound, I’ve watched the ‘meager’ and ‘clunky’ PC, which couldn’t even play card games, for chrissakes (!) climb as a pretender to the throne, to computer supremacy. It’s enough to make anybody feel, sad, mad, and betrayed. I remember once, I really ‘snapped’ when I heard ‘industry wag’ John Dvorak (I’ve hated him ever since!) say Amiga users should quit ‘whining’ about how great the Amiga ‘used’ to be, and why it failed, and just get over it. That attitude of easy, and light dismissal of the Amiga by the entire industry only makes matters worse.
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@MiAmigo.
Well put sir. You are correct. There are a lot of people here who've had their hopes of a new platform sullied time and time again for over 10 years now. As such, there are more than a few here who're both emotional and a little unrealistic about the subject. It would be easy to blame something, or someone for this, but in the end, its just about the ravages of time.
The death of Commodore didn't kill the Amiga. Neither was it killed by Escom, Gateway, Amiga Inc, Bill Buck nor even the Amiga community itself. We all however helped in our own ways, whether we knew it or not.
As such after 10 years without a real parent company and no end-goal in sight, there seems to be little left except "hurt, betrayal, and pain" wherein the Amiga is concerned. I know that sounds very stupid, childish, and petty, but it's pretty much the way most feel, and the base from which most react around here.
Unfortunately there are also those around here so high on their own feelings of self-importance that they actively go out and harm their own efforts by "cheerleading" for either "side" when there is simply no reason to. Another group are those who literally enjoy pushing buttons simply to help them hide how pitiful their own lives are. Most of those however have never owned an Amiga, nor do they understand in the slightest what it's all about. They're just trying to hide their trite existence by assaulting others. Egos after all are a part of humanity, no matter how stupid we might be.
I for one appreciate your question(s) because it's good to remind everyone once in a while that there are bigger issues in the world than this little soap opera.
Like Alex pointed out, until someone actually does something and presents us with a platform worthy of being called "the next generation Amiga", there's not really a whole lot to gripe and complain about. When and if someone does release such a beast (and IMHO, it isn't either the AmigaOne *or* Pegasos), we'll either embrace it, or we won't.
This site however will continue with the exact same mission that it has for almost 10 years now, and that is to provide the Amiga community with as much information as they can so they can get the help they need in making up their own minds what is, and isn't an "Amiga".
Wayne
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@ Wayne
You forgot to mention conspirisits!!
There are those of us who believe that all of the above you have mentioned was done to smash the community, un-hearten us and finaly burry the AMIGA and all possible roads for a future.
This goes back to ATARI/Commodore days. When the IBM PC and clones were saying "If a computer has any more than 16 colours, it must be a games machine"
Well we had colours, DMA sound, plug and play, multitasking and more.
It was a dangerouse machine then and still is now even though the PC world has not only colours but 3d Graphics and 8.1 Channel sound, multitasking etc...the philosophy behind the AMIGA stays. Perhaps some companies out there just don't want to see it survive and intend to break spirits that have held the AMIGA together even into divided sides right into 2005.
The community is not dead, just waiting as usual. Waiting for someone with enough guts, vision and money to do something. KMOS may just be that company and if so, there is still a chance for a very powerful "lifestyle" to once again bring the computer/technology scene forward to a new era.
I think that as long as we stay true to what we believe in, and to me that was the platform AMIGA and it's community I don't see why the common goal can't become a reality.
Seriously, if there is a demand, there will be substance.
Weather it be accelerator cards for classic hardware or new hardware, it's obvious that there are people who want AMIGA's technology and prefer the OS's feel and ability above others that are on offer.
:)
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Wayne wrote:
@MiAmigo.
Well put sir. You are correct. There are a lot of people here who've had their hopes of a new platform sullied time and time again for over 10 years now. As such, there are more than a few here who're both emotional and a little unrealistic about the subject...
Wayne
Obviously, there are several issues 'the community' needs to work out. A big one: wean ourselves off of, and away from specious 'parent company' developers, at least for now. Another one, less obvious: How about ridding ourselves of the idea that the Amiga (and its future) as a solitary platform, and start to see it more as a 'class' of computers. The other way around, we're never going to agree what the Amiga should be, since, seeing it as one type of machine is actually way, way too limiting for a machine of such vast potential. How about redefining the Amiga as a 'class', which would include different types of machines for different uses. They would share certain hardware and software elements, (such as OS and the most basic hardware), but from that point, be diversified into range of machine-types for home users, gamers, graphics, sound, etc. (Sort of like what Commodore did with the A1000 – A400, but less sporadic, and less schizophrenic).
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class. Then, we really would be doing some good here. And, as I said in another post, this part of it (conceptualization and design) really doesn't cost anything, and it could actually produce something productive and concrete, which, if well conceived enough, might actually attract a parent company worth something. We, and we alone, can save the Amiga, or let it die.
P.S. I hope my meager suggestions don’t inadvertently start a flame war! :nervous:
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And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.
One word:
Money
-Pink Floyd-
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bloodline wrote:
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.
One word:
Money
-Pink Floyd-
I think I see what you mean. So, say we developed, after several months, a new super-class of Amiga computers, and some part of them, or maybe even all of them, became highly do-able, and marketable. Would we then be reduced to fighing over who actually created the thing, and should get the kudos, credit, and monetary gain? Say it ain't so! Would we actually let that kill any chance the Amiga has, which, maybe, lies more here, on this forum (and forums like it), than anywhere else? Mein Gott! :-o
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MiAmigo wrote:
bloodline wrote:
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.
One word:
Money
-Pink Floyd-
I think I see what you mean. So, say we developed, after several months, a new super-class of Amiga computers, and some part of them, or maybe even all of them, became highly do-able, and marketable. Would we then be reduced to fighing over who actually created the thing, and should get the kudos, credit, and monetary gain? Say it ain't so! Would we actually let that kill any chance the Amiga has, which, maybe, lies more here, on this forum (and forums like it), than anywhere else? Mein Gott! :-o
:lol: maybe...
No, the big problem is that no matter what we can come up with there is always going to be a company who can spend huge sums of money to do it better and get there before us... and there is several companies competing in each of the areas we would have to cover...
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bloodline wrote:
MiAmigo wrote:
bloodline wrote:
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.
One word:
Money
-Pink Floyd-
I think I see what you mean. So, say we developed, after several months, a new super-class of Amiga computers, and some part of them, or maybe even all of them, became highly do-able, and marketable. Would we then be reduced to fighing over who actually created the thing, and should get the kudos, credit, and monetary gain? Say it ain't so! Would we actually let that kill any chance the Amiga has, which, maybe, lies more here, on this forum (and forums like it), than anywhere else? Mein Gott! :-o
:lol: maybe...
No, the big problem is that no matter what we can come up with there is always going to be a company who can spend huge sums of money to do it better and get there before us... and there is several companies competing in each of the areas we would have to cover...
Well, the obvious question is: Why ain't they done it, yit? I think they can't, because of the restrictions of what I'll call 'anycompanypolicy' which is the same thing that hamstrings those of us who'll let it: "Ooh! This can't be done, that's not economically do-able, we-can't-create-or-depend-on-a-possible-market for this'. And they never will. That's why, every time some company claims to assume the Amiga brand, they come up with some hare-brained, but what they consider to be more marketable, approach to how to handle the machine. They're afraid. True entrepreneurs shouldn't be. To me, the only difference between technology and magic is what you can allow yourself to conceive, and, ultimately, believe. It’s a philosophy that has served me well.
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TheMagicM wrote:
My sentiments exactly JetFireDX. This is just a hobby. I could care less what happens to the new breed of Amiga's (Pegasos/A1). The real Amiga's are the classic Amigas...thats what this site is about.. a bunch of us Amiga fanatics hanging out, talking about what we're doing with our classic. If something new happens to be developed for our classic system, great, if not..we'll continue on with what we have. C=64 users are a perfect example (like me! LOL) of continuing on despite of technological advances. hehe
-Alex
Touche` Bro!!
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KD7HTH wrote:
TheMagicM wrote:
My sentiments exactly JetFireDX. This is just a hobby. I could care less what happens to the new breed of Amiga's (Pegasos/A1). The real Amiga's are the classic Amigas...thats what this site is about.. a bunch of us Amiga fanatics hanging out, talking about what we're doing with our classic. If something new happens to be developed for our classic system, great, if not..we'll continue on with what we have. C=64 users are a perfect example (like me! LOL) of continuing on despite of technological advances. hehe
-Alex
Touche` Bro!!
Hey, I'm a huge fan of classic Amigas, too. Its why I'm here. And, my views on the current crop of Amiga-wanna-bees is well documented elsewhere on this forum. But, I also would hate to see the type of innovation that spawned the original Amiga die out because of incompetence, and lack of vision and creativity, and yes, guts. So, I want to have my cake, and eat it, too. I want my classic Amiga, which I have, and I also want the Amiga to move forward into the future, cuz I'm just stubborn, that way.
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And, my views on the current crop of Amiga-wanna-bees is well documented elsewhere on this forum. But, I also would hate to see the type of innovation that spawned the original Amiga die out because of incompetence, and lack of vision and creativity, and yes, guts.
if you're referring to the A1 and (almost defunct) Pegasos, I wouldnt call them wanna-bees. The both kick the classic Amiga's butt. There is just a lack of software. Its a very difficult road for the A1 and even more trecherous (sp?) for the Pegasos. In the end..there can be only one. Our community, like its been said before, cannot support two "Amiga" computers. Sad to say..even for me because I still have some love left for MOS.
@Wayne:
:-P I guess being too much Pro-Pegasos caused some irritability...I'm over it and am looking at things without the blinders on. (Not caused by the Peg users or MOS faithful..but by you know who.)
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TheMagicM wrote:
And, my views on the current crop of Amiga-wanna-bees is well documented elsewhere on this forum. But, I also would hate to see the type of innovation that spawned the original Amiga die out because of incompetence, and lack of vision and creativity, and yes, guts.
if you're referring to the A1 and (almost defunct) Pegasos, I wouldnt call them wanna-bees. The both kick the classic Amiga's butt. There is just a lack of software. Its a very difficult road for the A1 and even more trecherous (sp?) for the Pegasos. In the end..there can be only one. Our community, like its been said before, cannot support two "Amiga" computers. Sad to say..even for me because I still have some love left for MOS.
@Wayne:
:-P I guess being too much Pro-Pegasos caused some irritability...I'm over it and am looking at things without the blinders on. (Not caused by the Peg users or MOS faithful..but by you know who.)
I agree totally. Its also why I suggested a new set of 'Amiga' class computers.
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Well, as one who's had an Amiga since he was in 2nd Grade and it's still sitting here on my desk in front of me, though I'm not using it. I figured I'd share my two cents.
My reasons for staying around the Amiga and this forum are a bit unusual, but probably not too uncommon in the Amiga community. Like I said, my Dad purchased his Amiga 500 when I was in 2nd grade. The coolest thing I thought it could do is speak (especially when Dad it tell my Mom "Go Away Diane!"). The Amigas we had during my childhood, and now my early adult life, represented an oasis away from my everyday life. I can always go home and play games, or "fiddle" with something somehow, with the latter probably being the more important.
I simply got bored. In my late high school years, and through college, I switched over to the PC. I "fiddled" around with things by spending outrageous amounts of money on hardware, just to get it to play the latest game. More recently, I jumped over to the Mac world with iBook, which was more suitable, but it's "fiddle" factor isn't just there!
I came back to the Amiga about a year ago. Guess what? I'm still fiddling with the dumb thing! I had the best time a few days ago networking my A2000 with my Win98 pc to get it on the internet. That's why I'm hanging around the Amiga.
Why do I hang around this forum? Well - I figure in my years of "fiddling", I've probably figured a few things out about it, either software based, or hardware based. Heck, if I can help people solve a problem, I'm happy to share that knowledge. I hope that some others here feel the same, 'cause I'm likely to break something when I'm fiddling with the thing eventually!
As for the future of the Amiga - I know that there will probably be a time when my A4000 will feel like the C64 does to me when I play with it now, but that time hasn't come yet. This computer is still a productive, usable machine. After awhile, I'll probably end up with the new generation Amiga - but as for now, I'm finding new things to do with my old stuff every day. And enjoying every minute of it.
I'm extremely glad to see such a forum that we can talk with other Amiga users about the Amiga, and figure out what works for them, and share in the great wealth of knowledge out there in the broader Amiga community - modern hardware or not. Let's keep it up!
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shayes1981 wrote:
I'm extremely glad to see such a forum that we can talk with other Amiga users about the Amiga, and figure out what works for them, and share in the great wealth of knowledge out there in the broader Amiga community - modern hardware or not. Let's keep it up!
Well said!