Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: Tahoe on January 12, 2005, 08:18:09 PM
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Now here is something you don't see everyday!
Considering it myself, pretty cult owning one :)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5156514533&rd=1
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Yep, I've been bidding on it... and I got outbid! Grrr.
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Wow! :-o A piece of history... :-)
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I used to test little X-ray detectors on wafers like that using a probe station...
Those wafers, especially if there's a small run, can cost a LOT of money to produce.
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I especially like the write-up accompanying the bid. I sure would like to see the Amiga regain its rightful place at the forefront of technology, that it once held. "It is a dream I have." And a sad dream it is! :getmad:
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I have it on my watch list. I think another Amiga wafer is up now too, Agnus I believe. I couldn't find it just now though. I would love to have one of them but many people seem to have deeper pockets on eBay than I do :-o
Jeff
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@Jeff:
Agnus wafer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3543&item=8162321947&rd=1
My only concern is the authenticity of these as the photos appear to be stock ones available on the Internet:
Gary:
http://emulazione.multiplayer.it/cbmitapages/foto/nocomm/5719R4_1.jpg
http://emulazione.multiplayer.it/cbmitapages/foto/nocomm/5719R4_2.jpg
http://emulazione.multiplayer.it/cbmitapages/foto/nocomm/5719R4_3.jpg
Agnus wafer:
http://www.retromadness.com/oddbits/fatagnus.htm
Can anyone vouch for them?
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Wow, you're right. Good bit of detective work on your part. It doesn't matter too much to me as I won't be bidding on them.
:-D
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By the way, does anybody know if there are still unsold amiga (a1200) chipsets available somewhere? Is there any verilog/whatsoever description of amiga chipset? The amiga (with its hardware) must live forever, but what we have - will die sooner or later. It would be possible to re-create full amiga chipset within some modern FPGA's.
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Maybe these 68k notebook guys should bid on this :lol:
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@lordv
I was waiting for the "wow, we can produce new Amiga custom chips now!" discussion to start back up :-P
The basic answer is no, see the lengthy thread on it here:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13188
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@Castellen:
what 'no'?
No unsold source of amiga chipsets or - impossible to re-create amiga chipset from descriptions, if there are some?
Other ways are of course impossible.
..otherwise, the amiga would die forever.
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The discussions in that thread pretty much explain everything.
There is probably a few unsold (new old stock) of the devices somewhere, no idea where or how many. The other question is who is going to do the repairs? I only know of a handfull of people around the world who do any real detailed Amiga repairs down to component level.
As for making new devices. The two main problems is that there is no known "internal" documentation on them. And re-creating some of the logic elements using modern FPGAs and the like would be extremely difficult to get working due to timing issues.
So in short, you'd better look after what you've got :-)
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lordv wrote:
@Castellen:
what 'no'?
No unsold source of amiga chipsets or - impossible to re-create amiga chipset from descriptions, if there are some?
Other ways are of course impossible.
..otherwise, the amiga would die forever.
You had better read the thread.
Forget about the custom chips. :-)
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Amigas will live forever - with MinitITX boards mounted in A500 cases running UAE :-D
Most Amigas still in use will at least live to a ripe old age as those who still have them (mostly) cherish them.
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@bloodline
You had better read the thread.
Forget about the custom chips.
errrm... I've read that even before posting here. The only useful statement there is that the original schematics of amiga custom chips is PROBABLY lost.
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@Holley
Amigas will live forever - with MinitITX boards mounted in A500 cases running UAE
...and why miniITX and not ordinary PC? Anyway, this is like the life after death for you. =)
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lordv wrote:
@bloodline
You had better read the thread.
Forget about the custom chips.
errrm... I've read that even before posting here. The only useful statement there is that the original schematics of amiga custom chips is PROBABLY lost.
No, the Most useful statement is that even if the designs were still around, they would be useless. The Amiga chips were laid out by hand at the transistor level, for a chip fab technology that was old even in the early '90s.
The only way you could build those chips now would be in an FPGA, and that would need to use a chip spec language like Verilog or something. That would have to be worked out from scratch using the technical specifications of the chips (The original designes would be useless).
Secondly once you had built the Chipset (you probably fit the whole lot in one FPGA), it would take a large amount of logic just to interface with the original boards/chips, as the electrical specification of modern FPGAs (current, voltage timings, skew, jitter etc, etc...) are very different from the specs of chips/board built 15-20 years ago.
Turn on your PC, download WinUAE... run it... enjoy :-D
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Yeah, buy a Volvo and put a Porsche body on it and enjoy.... don´t think so. :-)
Sorry couldn´t resist.
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Crusher wrote:
Yeah, buy a Volvo and put a Porsche body on it and enjoy.... don´t think so. :-)
Sorry couldn´t resist.
:-D
But the Analogy is wrong. It would be like getting a modern VW and putting an old Ford Mustang body on it. Or somwthing I'm not really good with Cars :-)
Maybe a better one, is to get a Lotus Elise and put an Old Delorian body on it.
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@bloodline
No, the Most useful statement is that even if the designs were still around, they would be useless. The Amiga chips were laid out by hand at the transistor level, for a chip fab technology that was old even in the early '90s.
You cannot just sit and make a whole new chip on a transistor level. You need first to have description either on language or just in logic gates/etc. AFAIK the first amiga chips were even made as a big bunch of boards full of logic ICs.
The only way you could build those chips now would be in an FPGA, and that would need to use a chip spec language like Verilog or something. That would have to be worked out from scratch using the technical specifications of the chips (The original designes would be useless).
OK, have you ever seen the specifications for the aga chipset? I only saw a poor descriptions of aga/ecs registers together with some copper-blitter documentation 'how to use it'-styled.
Secondly once you had built the Chipset (you probably fit the whole lot in one FPGA), it would take a large amount of logic just to interface with the original boards/chips, as the electrical specification of modern FPGAs (current, voltage timings, skew, jitter etc, etc...) are very different from the specs of chips/board built 15-20 years ago.
brrr! Newly remade amiga chipset means a newly made CPU board - either coldfire (VERY doubtful) or PPC ( emulating or jit-emulating - probably the best). Just the another reincarnation within modern technology.
Turn on your PC, download WinUAE... run it... enjoy
Hmm, have you ever used winuae? (joke :). It's like a piece of sh... damn, just terrible! :))
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Hmm, have you ever used winuae? (joke :). It's like a piece of sh... damn, just terrible! :))
In what way?
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@bloodline:
Hmm, have you ever used winuae? (joke :). It's like a piece of sh... damn, just terrible! :))
In what way?
In EVERY way. Old good and nice 50fps games jerks in winuae. Sound also jerks sometimes. Screen resolution does not switch automatically when it changes in emulated amiga. And more, more, more.
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lordv wrote:
@bloodline:
Hmm, have you ever used winuae? (joke :). It's like a piece of sh... damn, just terrible! :))
In what way?
In EVERY way. Old good and nice 50fps games jerks in winuae. Sound also jerks sometimes. Screen resolution does not switch automatically when it changes in emulated amiga. And more, more, more.
Odd, you must be using a different version of WinUAE to me then :-?
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WinUAE always did run quite well on my own machines. Recently I tried Amiga Forever 6 on two different laptops and some things worked on one, but not the other and on one of them only A500 games would run. Full-blown OS3.9 emulation was so slow it was literally unusable.
I have no idea why. Both were well-maintained machines without spyware and so on.
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@bloodline
Odd, you must be using a different version of WinUAE to me then
0.9.92
It is impossible to have:
1. smooth movement in games (and even smooth movement of mouse pointer - see it at real amiga!) unless the frame rate of CRT monitor (TFT here SUCK!) will be exactly 50Hz and the emulation will be perfectly synchronized to the vertical beam movement. EVERY other case - even the frame rate of 100, 150, etc. Hz WILL suck.
2. simultaneous perfect sound AND constantly smooth movement (if all conditions of 1 are observed), unless we have sound and video systems clocked from SINGLE source (which is obviously wrong in case of separate video and sound cards).
All abovementioned statements are obvious by nature - provided you're familiar enough why do you see really smooth movement in old amiga games, in amiga mouse pointer, in SOME tv programs, in SOME LED running lines, etc. =)
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@Trezzer
Try then ordinary winuae 0.9.92 with ordinary 3.1 roms. At least games should mostly run. And don't hesitate to experiment with it's configuration =)
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lordv wrote:
@bloodline
Odd, you must be using a different version of WinUAE to me then
0.9.92
It is impossible to have:
1. smooth movement in games (and even smooth movement of mouse pointer - see it at real amiga!) unless the frame rate of CRT monitor (TFT here SUCK!) will be exactly 50Hz and the emulation will be perfectly synchronized to the vertical beam movement. EVERY other case - even the frame rate of 100, 150, etc. Hz WILL suck.
2. simultaneous perfect sound AND constantly smooth movement (if all conditions of 1 are observed), unless we have sound and video systems clocked from SINGLE source (which is obviously wrong in case of separate video and sound cards).
All abovementioned statements are obvious by nature - provided you're familiar enough why do you see really smooth movement in old amiga games, in amiga mouse pointer, in SOME tv programs, in SOME LED running lines, etc. =)
I don't want to say you are wrong, but I have my main machine running at 75Hz, and all games run beautifully in WinUAE... Silky smooth, tell me how Shadow of the Beast 1, 2 or 3 run.
I honestly think you are making this up, As long as 50 frames are displayed per second it will look like the Amgia original... if the PC's frame rate is higher than 50, WinUAE will be able to generate 50fps... it will look great. IT DOES LOOK GREAT!!!
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On the Amiga custom chips: I seem to recall that Hewlett Packard bought around three hundred thousand AGA chipsets shortly before C= went belly up. Have those chips made their way back into the Amiga market or are they just sitting in an HP warehouse somewhere? Also, at least two of the chips in the AGA chipset were actually manufactured outside of C=, though from C= designs. I believe that HP was one of the two outside manufacturers. If the chipset designs were lost on the C= end I wonder if HP might still have the design info. Of course that doesn't give you the chips that were done in-house.
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@bloodline
I don't want to say you are wrong, but I have my main machine running at 75Hz, and all games run beautifully in WinUAE... Silky smooth, tell me how Shadow of the Beast 1, 2 or 3 run.
AFAIR sotb aren't 50fps game, so it's a bad example.
Anyway, 75fps is even worse than 100 - some amiga frames are displayed for 1 monitor scan, others for 2 scans.
I honestly think you are making this up, As long as 50 frames are displayed per second it will look like the Amgia original... if the PC's frame rate is higher than 50, WinUAE will be able to generate 50fps... it will look great. IT DOES LOOK GREAT!!!
As long as 100 frames per second are displayed with two of them being the same, you'll see a jerking sprite. If you can't understand what I tell about, just take a good 50 fps TV with the real amiga and compare games and old demos - with winuae at 100 fps display mode. The thing is: for the really smooth-looking EVERY next frame must differ - in every other case there WILL be jerking.
I even doubt now you really had a real amiga and saw real oldskool 50fps demos there and played 50 fps games =))))
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AFAIR sotb aren't 50fps game, so it's a bad example.
SOTB is THE classic example of a 50fps game... absolutely STUNNING graphics.
Anyway, 75fps is even worse than 100 - some amiga frames are displayed for 1 monitor scan, others for 2 scans.
You have the only set of human eyes that can see movement above 25 frames per second... Ahhhh, movies must suck for you :lol:
As long as 100 frames per second are displayed with two of them being the same, you'll see a jerking sprite. If you can't understand what I tell about, just take a good 50 fps TV with the real amiga and compare games and old demos - with winuae at 100 fps display mode. The thing is: for the really smooth-looking EVERY next frame must differ - in every other case there WILL be jerking.
Ok, I'll try and explain it to you :-)
The human eye can't register a descrete change if it happens faster than 40ms, which is one 25th of a second. by running at 50fps you eliminate any aliasing between the frames, which gives the impression of super smooth animation. Anything over that just reduces the aliasing further...
If you run your PC Monitor at 100Hz, and UAE generates it's screens at 50Hz, so that the PC monitor is showing one Amiga frame for every two Monitor frames... you still have 50 frames per second...
I even doubt now you really had a real amiga and saw real oldskool 50fps demos there and played 50 fps games =))))
You don't want to know how many Amigas I have :-)
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@lordv
What about Team17's Superfrog?
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You have the only set of human eyes that can see movement above 25 frames per second... Ahhhh, movies must suck for you
Refer to
http://journal.pcvsconsole.com/?thread=2800
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
Some hardcore PC gamers can notice 60 FPS* vs ~100 FPS*.
*VSync’ed.
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Hammer wrote:
You have the only set of human eyes that can see movement above 25 frames per second... Ahhhh, movies must suck for you
Refer to
http://journal.pcvsconsole.com/?thread=2800
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
Some hardcore PC gamers can notice 60 FPS* vs ~100 FPS*.
*VSync’ed.
Brilliant resource Hammer, and nicely explains my point... but the main issue here is that as long as at least 50 frames are being displayed per second by WinUAE, the display WILL look the same as it did on an Amiga...
Maybe Lordv is confusing frame rate with clarity of image...
A Television set has natural AntiAliasing effect, which a high resolution PC monitor does not have, since my Geforce6200 has a TV out I, pluged it into my TV... Running side by side with my A500, One really cannot see any difference!