Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: jonssonj on January 12, 2005, 04:38:38 PM
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Hi all!
I'm very curious about AOS4. I have not bought a A1 yet, but maybe I will in the future. First of all I want to try the AOS4 on my A1200 with BPPC. So, when do you think we (amiga users) can expect to be able to buy the AOS4 from our favourite Amiga dealer?
I hope it will be released very soon.
BR
Jörgen
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If you holding on for the BlizzardPPC version i fear you will be let down! i DOUBT you will see a version for classic Amigas anytime soon if ever (especialy the BlizzardPPC).
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I thought Phase5 boards were supported by AmigaOS 4.
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jonssonj wrote:
So, when do you think we (amiga users) can expect to be able to buy the AOS4 from our favourite Amiga dealer?
When it's ready.
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Ok, but people here on amiga org have tried to install AOS4 on a A1200 with BPPC and says that it works almost out of the box. I thought it was the same version of AOS4?
BR
Jörgen
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@cymric
hehe... :)
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you can only get OS4 by buying an uA1.
it's not sold separately.
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Those that run OS4 on BPPC/CSPPC are betatesters. Last I heard, OS4 will be released at about the same time for the AmigaOne and the CSPPC, and at a later stage for the BPPC cards.
Right now, the only way for you to run OS4 is by doing what Cecilia said, buy an A1.
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OS4 is already usable. A1 is my main machine now.
An OS4 version for Blizzard will be released at the same time, or a little later, of the A1 final version.
www.intuitionbase.com
A lot of infos about OS4 and A1. You can find exlusive screenshots of OS4 on Blizzard PPC, also a video.
www.amigaworld.net
The official A1 support forums.
www.eyetech.co.uk
Pretty useless website, but eyetech is the father of A1.
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Hi Ikir, as an Amiga prodigal son, having returned to the scene with the purchase of a second hand A1200, I'm now tempted to upgrade it to be able to run OS4.
I know pretty well it'll never acheive the performance of a modern A1 mainboard, but would a Blizzard PPC200MHz board be enough to tinker with OS4 and maybe develop some stuff? In your opinion would OS4 be useable on such a configuration? I've seen the video on intuitionbase, but would also like the optinion of soemone who's seen it 'live' and maybe got a chance to use it!
Thanks in advanve
Jethro Tull
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Indeed it will be enough to tinker with it. You won't be able to watch DVD's and things like that (just not enough CPU power) but for most other things that we do on a daily basis.. mail, irc, surf the web. One of the guys of IntuitionBase.com has a bppc (166MHz I believe) and he runs OS4 on that one with much success.
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JIT isn't available on that video AFAIK and that should make
a big difference as well. From the video it looks pretty much
like AOS 3.x when it comes to speed so it looks promising I
think.
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jonssonj wrote:
Ok, but people here on amiga org have tried to install AOS4 on a A1200 with BPPC and says that it works almost out of the box. I thought it was the same version of AOS4?
Yes, beta testers are already able to use OS4 on their BlizzardPPC and CyberstormPPC machines. And yes, it's pretty much the same version that runs on the AmigaOne - the only difference is that some of the lowlevel stuff had to be adapted to the classic Hardware.
But there's no install script yet and creating a user friendly installation process for end users will require quite some work. Currently, only real men should try to install OS4 on a classic Amiga.
Additionally, some drivers are still missing.
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If you holding on for the BlizzardPPC version i fear you will be let down! i DOUBT you will see a version for classic Amigas anytime soon if ever (especialy the BlizzardPPC).
Looking at your signature, I wonder what makes you think you can give a qualified comment on the subject.
The classic versions of AmigaOS 4 are at about the same level as the AmigaOne version, and release wil most likely be simultaneous with the AmigaOne version.
Plainly, I've seen this "OS 4 will never come out" in various shades of blue (or grey or red or green, no pun intended) way too often to think it is funny.
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I thought it was the same version of AOS4?
It is. The kernel is slightly different, and some of the low-level device drivers, but that's about it. Things like e.g. Intuition, DOS, Graphics, are identical.
Any change in the AmigaOne kernel is also done in the classic kernel.
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you can only get OS4 by buying an uA1.
it's not sold separately.
Almost :-) The classic version will be sold separately.
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If you holding on for the BlizzardPPC version i fear you will be let down! i DOUBT you will see a version for classic Amigas anytime soon if ever (especialy the BlizzardPPC).
LOL, How would you know anything about that? I thought spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt was below your standards.
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Q: When are AOS4 released?
A: When all your base are belong to us...
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4pLaY wrote:
If you holding on for the BlizzardPPC version i fear you will be let down! i DOUBT you will see a version for classic Amigas anytime soon if ever (especialy the BlizzardPPC).
Sure. It must all have been a figment of my imagination, then... (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=709)
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Almost The classic version will be sold separately.
* Batteries not Included
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Thanks Mr.Freiden for your quick and clear reply. Thanks to you I've made up my mind to upgrade my A1200 to be able to run OS4. I'll be the first in line to buy what will surely be an excellent product and a breath of fresh air for the Amiga community!
One last question, to dispell any remaining rumours about OS4, will it require a hardware dongle or special ROM chips to run on classic Amigas? Will Kickstart 3.0 suffice? I'm also asking this to make things clear for ALL classic Amiga owners who are still in doubt and confused, thanks to all rumours flying around! Hopefully the release of OS4 will encourage those with a suitable machine to dust it down and experience fun, hassle free computing once again. It'll also, hopefully, spearhead the release (or re-release) of PPC accelerators for classic Amigas.
Thanks again, it's definitly a unique experience to have the author in person of your favourite operating system answer your querries on-line!
Cheers,
Jethro Tull
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will it require a hardware dongle or special ROM chips to run on classic Amigas? Will Kickstart 3.0 suffice?
No, nothing like that is planned, or at least nothing that I know of. Kickstart 3.0 will be sufficient, as well as a PPC card (obviously ;-))
It'll also, hopefully, spearhead the release (or re-release) of PPC accelerators for classic Amigas.
At least one new accelerator has been announced already to run with OS 4, the one by ACK.
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This one
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45781
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1961
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Thanks for the links Ikir. I already knew about this though. Don't you think the timing of ACK's news submission was quite peculiar though, right after the Dragon ColdFire busboard / Accelerator was announced.
The last thing I want to do is spread FUD. But claiming you've got a prototype running Linux BUT fail to post any photos and detailed specs is suspicious to say the least.
If I'd manage to build such a board, I would be over the moon and post photos, regular bulletins and more all over the Amiga forums. Oliver, the DIY Coldfire guy, has posted photos of ALL his boards thoughout various prototyping stages, even though they're still 'work-in-progress'.
On the other hand, ACK supposedly has a board at a much more advanced stage, running Linux and all, but just submits a dry announcement and after drumming up tremendous enthusiasm in the community, fails to follow it up with anything for weeks!
In my opinion, I think this ACK bloke acts in bona-fede and posted the news to counter the Dragon Cold-Fire board announcement, that could've damaged OS4 and A1 sales. Having said that, it seems ACK has a very good reputation in the Amiga community while on the other hand the Dragon guys (Elbox) are known to advertise vapourware which fails to materialise for years and years (Yes Duke Nukem Forever is being developed exclusivly for the Shark PPC). So I know who of the two I'd rather beleive!
Please don't misunderstand me, I wish that ACK's products exist! The specifications are simply an Amiga 1200 owner's wildest dreams come true! I'd buy one in a heartbeat if they're resonably priced!
I'm not counting on it, but I'd be gladly proven wrong on this one.
Jethro Tull
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My guess mon the ack-boards (and yes it's only a guess, but I do have a tendency to be right on spot with these):
- the small one is based on a reference design for a microcontroller
- the big one is still in a planning (aka non-working) state
So back to the small one :-o
- ack did transport that design onto a card in the right format for the A1200 trapdoor
- he also added a GFX-core and other things
- he did test the Linux that came with the original reference design
- A1200 slot ? not tested
- GFX-core ? not tested (only terminal over serial)
- IDE-controller ? not sure (netboot or similar should be possible with the reference design)
And I'm quite sure we would have heard if I were wrong on any of these points :-(
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I too do not expect to ever see OS4 for my blizzard PPC... Won't happen, not in a billion years*
*I will keep saying that until someone sends me a copy, free :lol: :-P
I agree with Kronos.
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Your point about Linux is very interesting Kronos. I imagined the reference to Linux to be a regular PPC distro booting on an A1200 with graphics front-end and all. So I pictured the board as being almost ready.
However you put this in a whole new perspective.
Of course an embedded bare-bones Linux compiled just for that microcontroller, sans GUI front-end, would be orders of magnitude easier to run, and would say nothing about the state of the A1200 board. While I hope you're wrong, I fear you're very close to the truth here.
Can anyone who knows ACK, or better still ACK himself, come out and be honest (brutally honest if need be) about this. The least we need is another Elbox & Co. taking Amgans for ride.
Finally, I'm guilty of deviating this thread from it's main subject, which is OS4 being released for classic Amigas with PPC boards.
And indeed it's a very positive thread since Rogue himself just confirmed that OS4 for classic Amigas will be released at about the same time as the A1 version! He also confirmed that all that's needed is a PPC board! And OS4 beta testers with hands-on experience stated that the classic Amiga version already runs very well on a lowly A1200 with 166MHz Blizzard PPC. :-D
So, I'm now busy scavenging for a PPC card to run OS4, and enjoy a better, faster Amiga and maybe even develop some cool applications. :angel:
Jethro Tull
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My guess mon the ack-boards (and yes it's only a guess, but I do have a tendency to be right on spot with these):
Yeah, we all know your prophetic talent, and your general subscription to Truth and Knowledge.
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I too do not expect to ever see OS4 for my blizzard PPC... Won't happen, not in a billion years*
Yeah, lemme guess, all those beta testers that actually have it are lying, right?
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Rogue wrote:
I too do not expect to ever see OS4 for my blizzard PPC... Won't happen, not in a billion years*
Yeah, lemme guess, all those beta testers that actually have it are lying, right?
Follow the star... :-D
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@Rogue
Well, you must admit though, that Kronos depicted an awfully realistic scenario, which would explain the lack of more concrete details while stopping short of labelling ACK a liar. :inquisitive:
We all agree that it would be far nicer if we could buy brand new accelerators for our Amigas, rather then hunt down second hand parts and pray they'll give us a few more years of service. The sad truth is that the Amiga market is so small nobody with the right knowledge and resources is willing to develop such a board.
A few months ago, someone had the blueprints for an A600 030 accelerator, and was testing the water for an evenutal re-release. A1200 PPC boards might also re-surface in this way, maybe a revised Blizzard without the 680X0 CPU.
Hopefully, the release of OS4 will build enough momentum for this to happen.
Jethro Tull
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Well, you must admit though, that Kronos depicted an awfully realistic scenario, which would explain the lack of more concrete details while stopping short of labelling ACK a liar
Problem is, I know ACK personally and I know better than to call him a liar. Matter of fact is that ACK told me about this hardware a few months ago already, and if he says so I am ready to believe him. He also has access to the OS 4 source code. Not that I have ever seen it, but I live in Germany and he's from Canada, a bit far for a weekend trip.
Personally, I always find it amazing that certain people are eager to comment announcements from one side but don't comment on things like the Pegasos III announcement (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44593) by BBRV from 2003 which are so obviously unrealistic.
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@Rogue
Sometimes I really ask myself what your problem is ....
Did I ever say that ACK would be lying ? No I only said that one shouldn't interpret more into his statement ("linux runs on it") then there actually is.
And yes, being a bit cynic after 10 years of empty promises and hyped-up news-releases from ALL players and all colors is more than warranted.
And your replies sofar show pretty well that even you don't know any details and prefer to derail it into troll-land instead of just countering my argumentation...
I didn't comment on the thread you linked to for a simple reason, the info on the "Peg3" where just as thin as they were on the Peg2 a year earlier, which contrary to many doubts turned out to be real....
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@Rogue
First of all, I hope I was not misunderstood. I'm not calling anyone a liar, on the contrary, I wrote that in my opinion what Kronos wrote made sense without clashing with ACK's announcement!
BBRV though is a different matter entirly! In this thread we've discussed OS4 for Classic Amigas, and received good news. We've also discussed in a civil manner the existence (or lack of) of two Amiga products. And again, the discusstion was informative and usefull.
But if we'll throw BBRV in the pot things will degenerate swiftly! I don't need to tell you what I think of this guy's actions Rogue. The endless flamefests, the list of people ruined and deluded, the downfall of MorphOS speak for themselves. The fact that I'm asking you about OS4 for my Amiga, and the fact that I'm searching for a PPC board to run it on should give you a clear answer to where BBRV can stick his Peg-III without resorting to strong, offensive words.
Since you're so close to ACK, tell him he's got at least one customer for his upcoming board . The discussion in this thread reflects the old adage, 'once bitten, twice shy'! The Amiga community has had more then it's fair share of bites. But rest assured no one is condemning ACK!
Thanks again Rogue
Jethro Tull
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@Kronos
Please pay attention to where you lead this thread. While you accuse others of trolling you're derailing this discussion into another BBRV versus Amiga flame war. I agreed with you when trying to explain the events leading to ACK's accelerator, and I agree with you now when you say no one called ACK a liar.
However I totally disagree with you when you claim Rogue is trolling. How can he counter your argument if he's got nothing to do with this blessed PPC board? He simply stated that ACK is a good friend and a trusted workmate. In Rogue's opinion ACK wouldn't deceive us. However, he was also fair stating clearly that he didn't see the hardware running himself. This is simply etchical conduct on his part. While he trusts ACK, he cannot vouch for something he didn't see personally!
I also disagree with you regarding BBRV and the Pegasus boards. Rogue mentioned the Peg-III not the II, so it's no use trumpeting the Peg-II's eventual release. More so when this occured WAY behind schedule, and AFTER the Peg-III was announced! The Peg-III was a pie in the sky. A huge custard pie in fact, which has fallen flat on Mr.Buck's face. :lol:
Unless you've seen the Peg-III working and know of a warehouse full of these boards ready to be delivered, it's useless mentioning the Peg-III again, isn't it?
If we must continue to discuss BBRV and his actions, even though it's been done ad-nauseum, open a new thread and I'll gladly reply over there. Let's not turn every discussion, every topic into a flaming fight, shall we? :-)
Thanks Kronos
Jethro Tull
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Jethro_Tull has said most of what I was going to say.
So...
Reread posts before replying, watch the personal remarks, and "stay on target....stay on target"
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Thanks for your kind words Argo. Please keep in mind that English in not my mother language, so sometimes my mails can sound more aggressive then I intended.
Hopefully ACK will intervene personally and clear the whole PPC card issue himself! BBRV's extravagant announcement of the Peg-III, at the end, is irrelevant, and dosen't justify Elbox, ACK or anyone else doing the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Rogue wrote:
Personally, I always find it amazing that certain people are eager to comment announcements from one side but don't comment on things like the Pegasos III announcement (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44593) by BBRV from 2003 which are so obviously unrealistic.
Yes, of course it is very professional of you as a representative of Hyperion, to slam a bitter rival on a totally unneccesary level?
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Yes, of course it is very professional of you as a representative of Hyperion, to slam a bitter rival on a totally unneccesary level?
oh, i don't know....seemed about the right level to me. :-D
anyway, no one gives a hoot about the Old Master Manipulator anymore. so, let's just drop that topic. It's boring at this point. They are gone.....
let me say that I am happy to hear that people with classical amigas will be able to run OS4!
I've only ever had 2000's, so this option was never something I could enjoy, but I have heard others express this wish. for them, I say WOOT! :-P
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@HopperJF
First of all why draw in Hyperion, when Rogue has a clear disclaimer stating the opinions in his posts are his own? Also, he's not slamming a product, since there's no product to speak of!
I think Rogue was simply frustrated that so many posts doubted his friend's accelerator board while the Peg-III anouncement went by uncriticised. I think actually the Peg-III was simply ignored in the long run because it was so increadibly far fetched and highly unlikely to be true, as it turned out to be the case.
I clicked on Rogue's link and a lot of users actually did question the existance and viability of such a board. More so when there was no freely available chipset for the CPU. They also derided the timing of BBRV's post. Proclaiming the release of the Peg-III when the vastly inferior but eagerly awaited Peg-II was still unreleased was simply ludicrous. BBRV shot himself in the foot and lost both sales and credibility with this faux-pass.
Also, please explain why is it unprofessional for someone to slam a rival? When (a)the slam's totaly true (b)the other rival (BBRV) did much the same, way more often, did so in a highly unethical way using lies, deceit, fearmongering and plain B.S.?
I agree though that Rogue should not have brought BBRV in this thread. Nobody in here ever mentioned BBRV. And nobody said that BBRV's behaviour was better (or worse) then Rogue's, ACK's or anyone else. BBRV's actions are coming back to haunt him. He's managed to earn eveyone's spite and his castle of cards is falling on it's own.
But at the end Rogue's point on the Peg-III was spot on and 101% true. No amount of beating around the bush will change that!
@Cecilia
Well said!! Let's move on!
Haven't you ever been tempted to get an AGA machine and join in the fun? Myself I'd love to get an A2000 but they're difficult to come by :-( How about a nice list detailing what you've managed to stuff in your big case miggies? :-) Would make interesting reading!
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To get back on track here, do the powers that be that *are* beta testing OS4 for BPPC/CPPC know if various classic add-ons will be supported ie Mediator or G-Rex boards and their related cards? I can't see playing with OS 4 in 64 Colour AGA WB would be much fun :-) Fast though.....
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@Lavo,
Good question! While we're at it, can a Beta tester or two shed any light on the following;
a) Are there any B-Vision drivers for OS4, if yes, are they PPC native or still 68k? Can you switch between AGA chipset and B-Vision from the OS, or better still, use both at the same time?
b) Does OS4 support the Paula chip, or just AHI sound-cards?
c) How's the hard disk speed using the regular IDE adaptor?
d) How responsive is the system in general use?
e) Has anyone tried using the bundled GCC compiler? How's compilation time, and how's final code size compated to 68k?
f) I know that DVD playback is out of the question, but what about regular VCD (not super VCD)?
g) What are realistic memory requirements for OS4 on the classic Amiga?
Thanks for reading through this extensive list. Hopefully some of the beta testers out there have tried out most of the stuff listed (that's what I would do anyway)! Finally, I'd like to say I really envy you guys, toying around with OS4 while we're waiting desperatly for it's release :-)
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Jethro_Tull wrote:
@Lavo,
Good question! While we're at it, can a Beta tester or two shed any light on the following;
a) Are there any B-Vision drivers for OS4, if yes, are they PPC native or still 68k? Can you switch between AGA chipset and B-Vision from the OS, or better still, use both at the same time?
From what I read on AW, Ryu had OS 4 running on BPPC with a BVision. It initially ran on AGA, then he selected the BVision in monitor prefs.
b) Does OS4 support the Paula chip, or just AHI sound-cards?
I thought AHI supported Paula anyway. Maybe I'm wrong?
Can't answer the other questions!
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@Jethro:
a) I think there are, but I use Mediator.
b) Yes, on classic hardware. (NallePuh with AHI may work too)
d) I haven't used OS 3.x for a long time...
e) Daily, yes. It's slow. VBCC, on the other hand is fast. I think the size of the C code is ok, especially when not using -lauto and after stripping some info. Also optimization flags help.
g) I would say 64 MB is minimum. It should be enough for JIT too. The more the better. GCC needs memory, disk buffers, JIT etc...
Yeah, toying :) But don't forget all those nasty bugs :-D
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Have you guys read my article on OS4 on classics?
http://intuitionbase.com/static.php?section=en_OS4_Classics
Also rewatch the video.. it does show a beta version of JIT running Amplifier and a plug to show you the speed increase..
As for IDE performance.. same hardware same speed...
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@Jethro_Tull:
a) Are there any B-Vision drivers for OS4, if yes, are they PPC native or still 68k? Can you switch between AGA chipset and B-Vision from the OS, or better still, use both at the same time?
Yes, ppc native BVision drivers are available, switching to AGA is possible (works just like OS3 in that regard).
b) Does OS4 support the Paula chip
Yes.
c) How's the hard disk speed using the regular IDE adaptor?
As slow as ever. If there's a speedup, it's not really that big.
d) How responsive is the system in general use?
Extremely responsive ;-)
g) What are realistic memory requirements for OS4 on the classic Amiga?
96 or 128 MB. You *can* boot with 64 MB (I did that a few months ago), but there's really not much memory left afterwards. You may be able to gain a few MB by dropping parts of the eye candy, but probably not enough to run some bigger application.
Keep in mind that PPC code is nearly twice as big as 68k code, so even 96 MB is not all that much.
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@cgutjahr
Either your definition of "not much memory left" is quite different than mine or OS4 is a resource-eater compared to the competion.
MOS1.4 with JIT, and all standart eyecandy eats just 29MB out the 128 on my Peg1, and I can't remember ever running out of RAM on this baby (except when I tried to unarc big archives into RAM: offcourse :oops: ). And it was mainly used for developing.
Also note that PPC code maybe twice as big, the data your are handling is still the same size, and even the most advanced Amiga-apps will stay quite a way from having 20MB or so in exe-files :-P
64MB should leave you with ~30MB free, which should be enough for standard tasks.
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@Jethro_Tull:
c) I would really recommend you to get a ppc card with scsi-controller as the ide-interface will give you a very nasty performance, holding the computer back severely, disregarding if you run OS4 or OS3.9.
/Patrik
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To All:
Thanks for your overwhelming response! Very much appreciated!
Another question! (Aaargh!) how much would you expect to pay for a Blizzard PPC Card in good working condition. Seeing that this is the only card which is capable of running OS4, it would be silly going for anything else, wouldn't it?
I've just enquired on Amibench and the prices were exorbitant! The asking price for a 200MHz PPC 040-25MHz was 425 Euros, more then an AMD64 3000+, NForce Mainboard + 1Gb RAM!! I know pricing in Amigaland is somewhat pecuiliar, but an old 200MHz board for 425 Euros is just crazy!!
@Patrik
So you're suggesting I should follow the SCSI route? If so, seeing that most of the old PPC accelerators had SCSI anyway, where can I get hold of a SCSI hard disk? I haven't seen any in ages! Buying a second hand hard disk is definitly not a good idea in my books, so much that can go wrong!
Would adding a FastIDE or similar product be worth it? Or is it simply a major expense for a marginal improvement?
Thanks to All, Cheerio!
Jethro tull
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@Jethro_Tull:
I just sold an 040/200Mhz BPPC card on eBay for $281USD.
That Amibench quote that they gave you sounds like a bit too much. Perhaps if the card was an 060/240Mhz/SCSI, the price would have been more realistic.
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I've just enquired on Amibench and the prices were exorbitant! The asking price for a 200MHz PPC 040-25MHz was 425 Euros, more then an AMD64 3000+, NForce Mainboard + 1Gb RAM!! I know pricing in Amigaland is somewhat pecuiliar, but an old 200MHz board for 425 Euros is just crazy!!
Get the Athlon64!! Oops, sorry wrong thread :-D
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@Jethro:
Sounds like expensive. Better save money for micro-A1 if you want to run AmigaOS 4.
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@Kronos: I have used 29-30 MB after booting to WB so I guess the resource requirements for AOS4/MOS are about the same.
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Keep in mind that PPC code is nearly twice as big as 68k code, so even 96 MB is not all that much.
It is not PPC code really that takes up all RAM. It is data.
MMU tables, 32bit gfx, 16bit sound, JIT buffers... 50MB has disappeared faster than you can say "cat".
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@Jethro_Tull:
You could buy one on ebay for a little amount of money. Don't worry too much if SCSI-disk is a few years old, they are built to last much longer than regular drives they have plus they have usually been run in a server at continiously low temperatures.
For a cheap and ok drive, I would recommend an IBM Ultrastar 36LP at 10GB. It is more than fast enough for the BlizzPPC SCSI-interface (30MB/Sec with my CSPPC and 6.8ms avg seek) and doesn't sound very much. You can find such drives on ebay for around 20EUR. Though this is just an example, there are plenty of other good drives. Also make sure you get adequate SCSI cabling and termination.
If you can have SCSI instead, I wouldn't bother with the FastATA option as is doesn't use DMA transfers to/from memory.
There is also the solution with an IDE<->SCSI bridge produced by Acard which will allow you to use a regular IDE-drive on the SCSI-chain.
/Patrik
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x56h34 wrote:
@Jethro_Tull:
I just sold an 040/200Mhz BPPC card on eBay for $281USD.
That Amibench quote that they gave you sounds like a bit too much. Perhaps if the card was an 060/240Mhz/SCSI, the price would have been more realistic.
Do you still have the other one for sale? I replied to your email weeks ago but never got a reply back. From memory, I actually offered more than what the accelerator actually went for on ebay. That's got to be a first!
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Are you the guy that offered $300CDN? That's $245USD. :-) I've still got the other one, but I'll most likely list it on eBay sometime soon.
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x56h34 wrote:
Are you the guy that offered $300CDN? That's $245USD. :-) I've still got the other one, but I'll most likely list it on eBay sometime soon.
Yep, that was me, but I did send through another email saying I had more cash to offer. I guess by that time you had already listed on ebay :-) Oh well, I'm sure others will pop along.
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Yes, of course it is very professional of you as a representative of Hyperion, to slam a bitter rival on a totally unneccesary level?
As professional as Nate Downes commenting on their rival on last year's wired vaporware list ?
Sorry, the door swings both ways... take care not to let it hit your nose...
Besides, do we have to reapeat each and every time that we are not talking for Hyperion ? Guess you "missed" that little point, right ?
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Did I ever say that ACK would be lying ?
Your posting seems to imply that.
I didn't comment on the thread you linked to for a simple reason, the info on the "Peg3" where just as thin as they were on the Peg2 a year earlier, which contrary to many doubts turned out to be real....
Then, why comment on this one?
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@ lavo
Prometheus and Mediator work, but AFAIK no G-Rex. Plus, there are drivers for CVPPC and BVPPC.
Also, native driver for the CSPPC SCSI driver, and a native driver for the Blizzard SCSI and A4000T onboard SCSI controller are under development.
Additionally, a lot of Zorro cards work under emulation.
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Yes, of course it is very professional of you as a representative of Hyperion, to slam a bitter rival on a totally unneccesary level?
I don't represent Hyperion. The fact that I work for them doesn't mean I loose my freedom of speech. I thought that this comparison was quite adequate because the Peg3 announcement turned out to be a whee bit optimistic.
I didn't "slam a rival". They managed to do that by themselves. I'd bet that even BBRV would agree on that. I didn't call them names or anything, I just pointed out a fact. I have of course the advantage of doing this in retrospect, and of course things look more obviously wrong when you know they are wrong.
You point was?
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a) Are there any B-Vision drivers for OS4, if yes, are they PPC native or still 68k? Can you switch between AGA chipset and B-Vision from the OS, or better still, use both at the same time?
Yes, there are drivers. I think they are 68k still, but because of some bug in the rtg.library that prevents native drivers from woring on the classic (no problem on the A1, though..).
Of course, you can still use AGA.
b) Does OS4 support the Paula chip, or just AHI sound-cards?
Paula is supported on the classic.
c) How's the hard disk speed using the regular IDE adaptor?
Mediocre. The emulated drivers are a bit slow.. Since most people with CSPPCs use SCSI, and there's a native driver, that shouldn't be too much of a problem... The on-board A4000 IDE interface isn't fast even natively...
d) How responsive is the system in general use?
Haven't used it in a while, I have to admit...
e) Has anyone tried using the bundled GCC compiler? How's compilation time, and how's final code size compated to 68k?
Compile times greatly depend on the disk speed. With the FFS or SFS plugin cache enabled, it's quite fast.
Code size of PPC is larger than that of 68k binaries... the file format itself is also larger, but overally, the code size is about 1.5 times...
f) I know that DVD playback is out of the question, but what about regular VCD (not super VCD)?
I think Moovid, AMP and of course MPlayer can both play VCD.
g) What are realistic memory requirements for OS4 on the classic Amiga?
You should have at least 64 MB. It works with far less (say, 16 MB), but isn't really usable. Remember that instead of relying on the ROM, we need to load the complete kickstart image into RAM. Plus, OS4 absolutely needs an MMU table. This means roughly 6 MB are already taken.
For "special environments", the useage can be cut down to roughly 4 MB, but that's the absolute realistic minimum.... And that will not leave any memory for applications...
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MMU tables, 32bit gfx, 16bit sound, JIT buffers... 50MB has disappeared faster than you can say "cat"
Not to mention wallpapers of 1280x1024, disk cache, bitmap cache for PNG icons, etc. If you then force windows to smart refresh, that will also eat up a lot of memory (I tend to keep this off by default).
@Kronos:
Also note that PPC code maybe twice as big, the data your are handling is still the same size, and even the most advanced Amiga-apps will stay quite a way from having 20MB or so in exe-files
Run a single copy of gcc and weep :-)
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e) Daily, yes. It's slow.
Have you tried fs_plugin_cache ?
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64MB should leave you with ~30MB free, which should be enough for standard tasks.
The last 64 MB system I tried OS4 on left 48 MB free after a full boot to Workbench.
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EntilZha wrote:
@ lavo
Prometheus and Mediator work, but AFAIK no G-Rex. Plus, there are drivers for CVPPC and BVPPC.
Also, native driver for the CSPPC SCSI driver, and a native driver for the Blizzard SCSI and A4000T onboard SCSI controller are under development.
Additionally, a lot of Zorro cards work under emulation.
Thanks Thomas. I appreciate the information, and all the other info you guys from Hyperion give us in regards to OS 4. Its a refreshing change from some other big OS developers ;-)
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@EntilZha:
Not currently. But I was lucky enough to get more memory yesterday (hello Toaks!) so I will enable this...does it also work with SFS?
The speed must be very subjective. IMHO, GCC 3.4.2 is pretty heavy on classic machine, especially when using optimizations...
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Hi again;
@EntilZha
Will the rtg.lib bug be solved before OS4's release? Allowing B-Vision to work nativly? And is GCC so slow to the point of being unuseable? Can you give us a rough idea of compiles for known open source apps/modules?
@x56h34
You've mentioned you've got another accelerator for sale. Can you post more details please? I am willing to pay $250 dollars if it's in good condition and has SCSI.
This is really an interesting thread, hope the discussion keeps going since it is very informative.
Cheerio
Jethro Tull
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@Jethro: it's useable. Otherwise I wouldn't have ported NetHack, a few Angbands etc. Compiling takes many minutes though, maybe ~1 hour on an Angband variant on my BPPC. Please note, that I haven't had that cache plugin enabled and only had 64MB of memory, T: assigned to harddisk etc...
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Jethro_Tull wrote:
@x56h34
You've mentioned you've got another accelerator for sale. Can you post more details please? I am willing to pay $250 dollars if it's in good condition and has SCSI.
I do have more PPC cards for sale, however they will all go to eBay eventually. Unless you can come up with an offer which is realistic to a potential eBay sale, I really can't simply give it away. As you can see here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5157908818), an 040/200Mhz without SCSI went for more than what you offer for a card with better specs.
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@x56h34
What are the specs of your card then, and how much do you want to sell the card immediatly? Maybe the seller was lucky to sell that card for 280! It dosen't mean luck will repeat itself!!
@Patrik
Do you know if LVD SCSI is compatible with the interface on Blizzard accelerators?
@All;
to anyone reading this thread who's got a PPC card for sale, please reply here or send a message!
Cheerio
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x56h34 wrote:
Jethro_Tull wrote:
@x56h34
You've mentioned you've got another accelerator for sale. Can you post more details please? I am willing to pay $250 dollars if it's in good condition and has SCSI.
I do have more PPC cards for sale, however they will all go to eBay eventually. Unless you can come up with an offer which is realistic to a potential eBay sale, I really can't simply give it away. As you can see here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5157908818), an 040/200Mhz without SCSI went for more than what you offer for a card with better specs.
To be fair, you also have to at least give a potential buyer the chance to counter offer. It is one thing sending someone an email to invite them to put in an offer, but it is another to not reply then simply chuck it on ebay. No sour grapes, just fairness for others who may be interested in buying your boards.
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OK this is what I have and how much I would let them go for, right now. The last one in the list is a part of my own setup, however if the price is right I'd definitely let it go.
040@25Mhz - 603e@240Mhz - with SCSI and cable - $350USD
060@50Mhz - 603e@240Mhz - no SCSI - $400USD
060@50Mhz - 603e@240Mhz - with SCSI and cable - $500USD