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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: JaXanim on December 28, 2004, 11:49:19 PM
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I need to get my native Amiga video output into a TV card so I can run LightWave on an A200T/Mediator/Voodoo5.
For anyone unfamiliar with LightWave3D, it outputs Hi-Res Interlace or Picasso video only. Since I've swapped my PIV for a Mediator/Voodoo setup, I can't run LightWave on my SVGA monitor. Running it in Hi-Res Interlace on an old Microvitec multisync is a nightmare.
So, has anyone done this? It seems a good way of getting native AGA output onto an SVGA screen, but I'm struggling with it.
Native Amiga output is on TV Channel 36, so tuning a TV card to that channel should give me what I need, eh? I understand that I need to connect the A1200's Composite video out to the TV card Comp-In connector.
Well, I've done that and get nothing on the TV video screen.
Anyone got any ideas on this?
Cheers,
JaX
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Ehm, you want to use the arial out of the A1200 to connect to a TV card? Maybe it would be a better idea using the composite out and connecting it to line in on the TV card. (oops that's what you mentioned later). Do not search for channel 36 when using this but you need AV1 (or something similar)
Would't a Scandoubler/Flicker Fixer be a better option?
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or a scandoubler and a monitor switch would probably be a better soloution...
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I originally intended to use both the PicassoIV (which runs LightWave perfectly on an SVGA)together with the Voodoo card, using the MediatorZ4. Unfortunately, my kit won't do it. After long discussions with Elbox, it seems I have a system frequency imbalance which precludes both video cards being used together. So, I removed the PIV (which has a built-in scan doubler).
I have all the other kit I need to run via a TV card, so I thought this is the easiest option. I don't have a separate scan doubler.
I'll take a look at AV1, which I'm not familiar with. Is it on Aminet?
Cheers,
JaX
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Why not just forcably promote the NTSC-Laced LightWave3D screen to DblNTSC?
I think that's what I used to do. I think just the VGAOnly tool should work. If not, ModePro or whatever was up to the task. I know I didn't work all those hours in interlace, and I never had a Picasso..
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Sorry, AV1 is not a program. When you select or search channels (in your case I believe you were looking for Channel36) you should select AV1 (or Line-In) depending on what software you are using. I only use a TV card in my PC and Pinnacle Vision calls it AV1.
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Err, AV1 stands for Audio/Video input channel 1, as always seen on TV's.
So if you take the Amiga Video signal from the composite, then you have to switch to Composite from Antenna/Air. There you don't have to search any channels, it'll just show up, and better quality than Antenna/Air.
If you wanna try using CH36 on your TV-Card, then take the Antenna cable from the RF-Output from your A1200 and plug in the TV-Cards Antenna/Air IN plug, it'll work then. :-)
Sorry if i was a bit confusing... But it's very simple. I have a Mediator with TV card aswell and i use Composite OUT from my A1200 to show AGA modes on my SVGA Monitor. ;-)
Just switch to Composite or AV or AV1 on your TV software.
If you use TvR, then click on the LINE button (the one between FS and the Speaker button) at bottom. :-)
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@Tahoe
@CaptainHIT
Ah, I see now, thanks.
I've got TvR, but haven't had it running yet.
The instructions are pretty confusing for a new starter.
They refer to functions which I don't see on the TvR gui.
I don't see a 'Line' button anywhere!
Maybe I should reinstall it? I followed the instructions about the Fonts and the Stills drawer, but I'm blowed if I can get it running! Help..!
JaX
EDIT: Er, I mean the 'Shots' drawer.
As with lots of software nowadays, this one assumes you are a tv engineer already and know what all the abbreviations mean, without any explanations. I'm sure this is a nice piece of kit, but without a more lucid explanation of its bells and whistles, I'll probably not be able to use it. A pity.
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Ho-Kay,
I've got the TV channels running perfectly on my Workbench screen (a High Definition Voodoo format). For now, I'm using the standard software supplied in Elbox's MMCD package.
Now I need to understand how to get the Composite output from native AGA format onto the default Voodoo screen via the tv system.
When I start LightWave (which has PAL or Picasso output only), the default Voodoo screen switches off and I can only see the output using a 15KHz Amiga monitor attached to the A1200's video interface.
How do I arrange things so that this PAL output can be seen via the Voodoo graphics? I have connected the A1200 Composite output to the Hauppauge TV Card Comp-In socket.
I've set the TV software to use the 'Source 1' (the Elbox info says this is the composite-in source), but I don't see anything when I switch screens (ctrl-M) to get back to the Voodoo screen.
Do I need to 'tune in' the TV software to see the Composite input and if so what is its frequency?
Sorry if all this seems like stupid questions, but I'm completely baffled by the TV system.
Any help appreciated.
JaX
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I might be saying something foolish now, but it seems to me that you are trying to get the Amiga to generate two different screenmodes at the same time.
But I don't mean in the same sense as I may have two programs running simultaneously, one at 31kHz and the other at 15kHz, and I can drag the front screen to see the other program running in the back screen, adopting the screenmode of the program in front, on my 1438s multisynch.
No. What I mean is a genuine two-monitor display, in other words running one program through the 15kHz video port and the other through the 31kHz VooDoo. It seems to me that if this was possible you would be able to watch a 15kHz native demo on your TV, while raytracing with Cinema 4D on your PC monitor, with changes to the one screenmode not affecting the other.
I don't think this is possible. What I mean is that the Amiga is choosing what to display, and it either displays it through the 15kHz video port, OR it displays it through your Voodoo.
Am I right or have I lost the plot here?
edit: chose the wrong name for a 31kHz-friendly trace prog. Fixed it.
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@X-ray
I think you're exactly right and that's why I'm trying to understand how people get AGA stuff to display on their VGA monitor via the Composite-in on a TV card.
See CaptainHIT's post above. I'm trying to understand how that's set up.
Cheers,
JaX
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I wonder if he is displaying the AGA signal of the A1200 that does not have the mediator, on the A1200 that does have the mediator? He has two 1200s.
If he's doing it all on one machine, I am really curious how it works (and in need of enlightenment)
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@X-ray
Guess we'll have to wait till CaptainHIT comes back.
I'm baffled too!
Cheers,
JaX
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JaXanim wrote:
@X-ray
I think you're exactly right and that's why I'm trying to understand how people get AGA stuff to display on their VGA monitor via the Composite-in on a TV card.
See CaptainHIT's post above. I'm trying to understand how that's set up.
Cheers,
JaX
I use the TV card in my PC to display the output from my A1200D (I rarely run AGA stuff on my main A1200).
It's a straight connection from the composite out of the A1200 to the composite in of the tv card. Then just tell it to use AV channel.
I did have loan of some SCART to S-Video type thing at one point (which could be used in conjunction with an RGB port -> SCART adaptor) which would ultimately allow an RGB -> S-Video connection (should be better than composite) but I never tried that.
However, the basic composite connection works a treat.
Now, if you have a TV card on your mediator, you can essentially do the same thing, showing your AGA output in SuperTV on your workbench. I believe there are also arexx scripts to run fullscreen AGA software on a mediator/tv-card setup.
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@Karlos
I've tried the setup you describe, but when I start LightWave, it automatically outputs an native mode and my Voodoo/SVGA screen switches off. Even with the TV system running, there's nothing on the monitor.
The only way I can see the LightWave gui is on a 15KHz monitor attached to the A1200 video port. It's Hi-Res Interlaced and impossible to work with.
If I change screen back to the Voodoo one (LeftAmiga+M), there's nothing on the TV screen and the 15KHz screen switches off at the same time.
As commented above, how does the Amiga generate two different screenmodes at the same time? Or does it? I suppose the composite video output isn't a screenmode as such, but simply a separate additional output? How do I get that onto Voodoo when LightWave switches it off? I'm confused by the whole thing!
However, you've probably helped by involving the PC in all this. I can fit the TV card in the PC and direct the Amiga native video to the Composite In connector. I can see how that should work fine. Just means having both machines on together.
Cheers,
JaX
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As commented above, how does the Amiga generate two different screenmodes at the same time? Or does it? I suppose the composite video output isn't a screenmode as such, but simply a separate additional output? How do I get that onto Voodoo when LightWave switches it off? I'm confused by the whole thing!
Even though you'd only be using one monitor, you'd need to set it up as a two-monitor system would be. That way, the videocard (Picasso96) screen won't keep being shut off when you flip back to an Amiga screen, and vice-versa. I'm not sure how you do that with Picasso. In CGX, it's a ENV variable.
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aha, Ilwrath reveals all. I'm using p96 on a similar setup so I might have a play about see how far I get.
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@lorddef
@Ilwrath
Tantalizingly close eh? But I still don't savvy it, so if you figure out how to set up this ENV variable(???), please let us know, in detail, in simple speak too.
In the meantime, I've managed to get the LightWave gui into my PC/TV system using the Composite connectors as indicated in my last post.
If that's as close as I can get, OK. It's not ideal, but better than where I was.
I'd really like to know how to do it with one Amiga and one monitor.
Cheers,
JaX
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Hmm,
The Elbox website (http://www.elbox.com) has the following info in an old press release on their Mediator PCI range:
"Software for TV cards in Mediator enables a number of other additional functions, which the TV card may perform. For example: managing the radio tuner integrated with the card or using the TV card as a scandoubler / flickerfixer for displaying the AGA-generated image in the PCI graphic card screen."
So it seems the Amiga can generate its native video and provide concurrent Voodoo graphics.
So how's it done?
JaX
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JaXanim wrote:
So it seems the Amiga can generate its native video and provide concurrent Voodoo graphics.
Indeed it can. I am sure that it's a configuration issue somewhere. As already mentioned, under CGX simply tweaking some env vars allows both AGA and RTG screens to run concurrently; I used to do this when I had a 15kHz monitor alongside my main one. I'm sure P96 allows the same.
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@JaxAnim:
I got two questions:
1. When saying that LightWave3D can output to "Picasso video", do you mean that it can make use of the RTG system (vilintuisup.library) that shipped with the Picasso2 graphic cards?
2. What happens if you just try to promote the LightWave3D screen to a RTG screenmode using NewMode or ModePro?
/Patrik
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@ Karlos
Hmmmm, this is something I didn't know the Miggy could do. What I want to know is this: if Jax gets that Lightwave screen running as a Mediator/TV window, is that screen going to be able to take input, or does the active screen still have to be the 15kHz one?
I'm probably not explaining myself clearly, but hopefully you know what I mean.
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Hi patrik.
yes LW Picasso2 mode uses vilintuisup.library directly.
Here with LW3.5 and NewMode, i've set LW but its about a nightmare.
You have to set IIRC 4 different promotion (and in the right order).
More easy to do it that explain :-(
EDIT- IIRC the Picasso2 its only for the Preview screen.
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Hmmmm, this is something I didn't know the Miggy could do. What I want to know is this: if Jax gets that Lightwave screen running as a Mediator/TV window, is that screen going to be able to take input, or does the active screen still have to be the 15kHz one?
No, the active screen is the only screen on a multi-monitor setup that can take input. So, he'll still have to RAmiga-M to make the AGA screen active in order to actually be able to "touch" anything in the AGA box. Then, he'll have to RAmiga-M again to get his pointer back to the P96 screen, even though both will be visible at all times...
Could be a bit confusing until you get the hang of it.
Personally, I agree with Patrik, and I said it before. Just use a ModePro or NewMode program to forcibly push the Lightwave screen to 30khz and be done with it. Much easier, and much better picture quality. I'm just providing the 2 monitor info as it's an interesting idea for other things.
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@patrik
Re. the vilintuisup.library. I'm not into the technical details, but from what others have said, it seems so. LightWave was written around the Picasso RTG system and supports it natively.
I have looked at mode promotion and it's easy to do with ModePro, but things go bad when you begin the rendering process. The progress screen is messed up and shifted vertically so nothing's visible. I understand this can be solved but I don't know how to do it. (See Framiga's post above).
I also had frequent crashes when rendering under that condition. The Modeler interface can be promoted to several high resolution screenmodes using a tool supplied with the LightWave 3.5 package. This works with all later Amiga versions. The basic problem is with the Layout interface and the Render progress screen.
When I used the PicassoIV, everything was superb. I then decided to fit a MediatorZ4 bus to run PCI stuff and added a Voodoo5 for everything but LightWave. Unfortunately, my system won't run with both the PIV and Voodoo fitted. So the best option appeared to be keep the Voodoo and find some sort of workaround for LightWave.
I fitted a TV card cos I'd been told it could be used as a SD/FF for LightWave. This got me to here, without that final clue to using it. Others here know how, and several of us are waiting details.
I'll probably go back to Elbox and ask them how to do it.
Cheers,
JaX
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@Framiga:
Btw, doesn't Picasso96 emulate vilintuisup.library?
Regarding the promotion - you could always start the NewMode preferences, delete all promotion-objects except the four LightWave3D ones and press Use which will save those settings only to ENV:NewMode.config. Then archive that file, put it on a public server, and post a link so JaxAnim can download it.
:)
Btw2, what screenmode are you running LightWave3D in now?
/Patrik
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@patrik
I haven't been able to run LightWave properly for months. Very frustrating! I can manage very simple stuff using a 15KHz monitor for setting up in Layout, then rendering and sending the output to the Voodoo monitor. It's a bit tedious and not good on the eyes.
It will be easier to run Layout and Modeler in a TV frame on my PC. The Amiga's mouse pointer appears on the PC monitor of course, but that's OK. The need to keep the Amiga in its native mode to keep the mouse active is not a problem for most people running LightWave. They'll be too occupied with that to need a different mode on the Amiga.
The bottom line is to do all this on the Amiga and one SVGA monitor. I feel sure this is going to be fairly straight forward once I know how.
Cheers,
JaX
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The bottom line is to do all this on the Amiga and one SVGA monitor. I feel sure this is going to be fairly straight forward once I know how.
Cheers,
JaX
A somewhat different approach, and a good reason to invest in a new LCD monitor:
Buy a LCD monitor with a composite input on it, or perhaps a full TV/monitor combo. I've got a 17" widescreen LCD displaying the CVPPC output as 1280x768 WXGA, and a RGB SCART cable to display AGA modes. Works perfectly, it's even got PiP :)
IIRC there are/were also CRT monitors with Composite/S-video inputs and TV-tuners on the market.
-Paul
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Patrik
yes i could but ATM i'm on CGX.
Anyway the problem is the exact order you will promote the 4 screens.
Its a job of USE for one SAVE for another and so on.
With NewMode (don't know with ModePro) you can promote an app with:
Its TASK name > LIGHTWAVE.FP
or with its SCREEN name
or with its resolution data (don't know in english).
Actually the screens are 3 for LW and 1 for the Modeler that MUST have the same resolution-depth.
ie 800x600 8bit for both. (the Modeler configured with its own cfg also)
The worst problem is the Preview screen that if bad configured, crash the system.
Tomorrow, i'll take a look to my old P96 backup.
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so try this (NewMode 3.9):
1-LIGHTWAVE.FP> promote=NO options=ScreenName (LW Render Feedback) CHECKED
2-LIGHTWAVE.FP> promote=YES options=ScreenName (LW Render status<<) 640x480 8bit
3-LIGHTWAVE.FP> promote=YES options=Program Name (LIGHTWAVE.FP) 800x600 depth: same of modeler
4- Modeler> 800x600 depth= same of Layout
Prepare yourself, to a loooong series of crashes :-)
PS- Layout Render Display = 8 bit HAM
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@Framiga
I just downloaded NewMode and gave it a try (before reading these latest posts) and yes, the system crashes as soon as the rendering starts.
I tried to 'catch' the render preview screen by using the 'all screens' option in NewMode. This does stop at the right point, but I didn't really know what mode to use. I tried various 8-bit screens (as stated, the preview is in 8-Bit HAM) but same result, it crashed.
I'll have a close read of your last post and try to get it into NewMode. It seems like a very useful program and would provide a nicer solution than a TV card.
Later,
JaX
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Try this
NewMode.config (http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cieffeeditingvideo/docs/NewMode.config) (Shift+click)
Don't care about resolution, change it for your GFX board.. Take it only for reference.
The only problem is when you change from the grey render display to the HAM8.
If the screen become black, click on it and do an AmigaL+M until the HAM8 screen shows up.
Good luck :-)
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@Framiga
Many many thanks for your help, I'm now beginning to understand a bit about it.
It seems to me (but I'm just startin out) that LightWave has five screens to consider for promotion to Voodoo graphics. The basic Layout and Modeler interfaces are easy enough, it's when the rendering begins that things get complicated (for me anyway).
The rendering progress screen, which is normally in HAM8 greyscale I believe, also contains a thin (18 pixel deep) 2-color overlay with text. This is a separate screen I think, because the curser moves 'behind' it. This strip is located at the bottom of the render preview screen. However, using NewMode's screen positioning gadget doesn't seem to make things work. My Voodoo screen is switched off and it all goes to the native modes on the 15KHz monitor.
I think the NewMode gui identifies these screens as the Render Feedback screen and the Render Status screen respectively. I'm really having problems with this part of the program.
When rendering is complete, it usually switches to the 24-bit Picasso screen, which I don't think can be promoted as such(? ? ?). Anyway, I've used a CyberGFX plugin to get this onto a Voodoo screen very successfully. You must select CyberGFX mode on the Layout/Options gui, before rendering starts.
So, things are almost there, but I more need help and if anyone has any ideas I'd be grateful for your advice. I can get the Layout, Modeler and final render onto Voodoo, but the rendering progress screens persist in the native format. I'm sure the answer is staring me in the face, but this stuff isn't my strong point.
The quality of the mode promoted stuff is way better than any from the TV card output, so I don't think that's really worth persuing.
Cheers,
JaX
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Hi
"The rendering progress screen, which is normally in HAM8 greyscale I believe, also contains a thin (18 pixel deep) 2-color overlay with text. This is a separate screen I think, because the curser moves 'behind' it. This strip is located at the bottom of the render preview screen. However, using NewMode's screen positioning gadget doesn't seem to make things work. My Voodoo screen is switched off and it all goes to the native modes on the 15KHz monitor."
and its this that is complicated to manage.
But i've managed to use it anyway . . .the Render in progres crap thing, its a 640x18 separated screen theat you could promote to some resolution about 640x480 and see it using the depth AmigaL+M.
Its not the best but . . .better than nothing :-)
BTW . . yes i'm using the CGX plugin too
EDIT- "When rendering is complete, it usually switches to the 24-bit Picasso screen, which I don't think can be promoted as such(? ? ?)."
?!? this is strange IMHO
when the CGX rendering screen is completed, you have to click on it and hit on ESC to exit.
At this point if you are on a black screen click again on it and the on ESC.
At this point, you should be on the Layout screen.
As already said, this is a little bit annoying but . .
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take a look to this new NewMode.config
The only screen NOT promotable is the grey Render in progress one.
NewMode.config (http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cieffeeditingvideo/docs/NewMode.config) (shift+click)
Have you set the CyberGFX renderer with its own CyberGFXRendererPrefs?
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@Framiga
Again, many thanks for your input. I already made a similar config for NewMode, allowing smooth rendering in an unpromoted mode and everything else on Voodoo.
I feel it must be possible to get everything on Voodoo with enough experimentation, but it could take a while to figure out and maybe not worth the effort.
On my A1200T/Apollo1260/64MHz, the Layout interface is smooth enough at about 800x600 and 16-bitPC mode. 24-bit promotion makes it jerky when manipulating objects. Anyhow 16-bit is quite suitable for the two color interface, eh?
I will continue to experiment and if I get the Rendering screens to work, I'll post it here.
Cheers,
JaX
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@JaXanim:
It isn't by chance possible to set some preferences for the rendering screen in LightWave? Say if you would be able to set it to operate a non-HAM mode it should work just fine to promote it.
/Patrik
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Patrik
the Render display, is already on a CGX screen (thanks to a CGX renderer Plugin).
My previous NewMode.config, was targeted to LW 3.5 with the HAM8 renderer screen.
What is about impossible to promote, is the "Rendering in Progress" screen (in grey shades).
On the native AGA screens, the "Rendering in progress" and the display with the rendering data (640*18), are showed (overlapped) on the same screen.
NewMode instead, sees it as 2 separated screens . . . not displayable at the same time.
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@all
I'll try to contact the author of NewMode and see if there is a solution to this problem.
Cheers,
JaX
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Just to add to the problem, I noticed that the Animation Preview screen on Layout doesn't function when the Layout screen is promoted to Voodoo graphics.
I suspect all these problems (and I think there are one or two more yet) are related to multi-tasking.
Only the Amiga version (AFAIK) runs the Animation Preview screen and the Modeler 3D View via multi-tasking. This probably means that there are two screens being displayed together, as with the Render Preview screens. This might be impossible to do with mode promoters like NewMode. (?)
Unfortunately, neither the author nor Aminet uploader of NewMode are now contactable through their addresses on Aminet.
Seems like a Scan Doubler may be needed to get a complete LightWave running on Voodoo graphics. (?)
Cheers,
JaX