Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: rayt on December 17, 2004, 03:08:52 PM
-
Here (http://www.elbox.com/news_04_12_17.html)
They call it Dragon or something, and on the website they say it has a 266mhz coldfire, 2 sdram sockets, agp, pci, and all that for ~350Eur and available at the end of january 05! I guess that means that there will definately be no sharkppc.. And will it affect/destroy the os4 "market"?
They also have a new banner at amiga.org.. But why isn't something about it in the news section?
They talk about special upgrade offers for mediator users.. beeing a mediator user myself I considered buying a shark to run os4 on it, but now I don't know, 68k looks like a dead end road imho.. but ~350Eur is much cheaper than a csppc+mediator or a microA1 for example.. I don't know what to think about it.. its a big surprise, they didn't announce anything like that afaik..
-
Absolute vapor. Wouldn't trust the annoucement as far as I could throw the server it's hosted on. There are apparently still significant problems getting the Coldfire to (properly) emulate the 68k instruction set (so I've heard).
EDIT:
Although I will say that if they've pulled it off, maybe it will open the door for the other Coldfire project - the one aimed at CDTV, A1000/2000/500/600 systems. We can only wait and see...
-
Yeah but that was afaik a different (hobby) project.. Maybe elbox had somebody working full time on this for a long time.. but anyway the release date is in a month or something, shouldn't they have at least a prototype ready for demonstration or something?
-
Well...the specs look impressive, but even if it does come out (in 1 month?), who would provide support for it other than Elbox? Are we to expect that the existing 68k stuff would simply work and run at 266Mhz (supposing that they make the Coldfire cpu run with no errors)?
-
Sharkppc anyone, I bet people will still be asking in a few years time, when is the dragon being released...........
I really dont see it exisiting, and if it does, whats the point, as it says on their website, will support most 68k programs, so whats the point of breaking compatibilty for some extra speed
-
It also seems to be compatible with A1200 only, for now. :-)
If it does come out, it would be a classic Amiga dream come true. It would also be bad for AmigaOne/OS4.0 sales, and would most definitely discourage some people from migrating to AmigaOne from the classics.
I personally don't think we'll ever see this thing, just like the SharkPPC cards. Realistic expectations from Elbox on future products would be to release FastATA1200 Mk.4, of course still with no sign of any DMA operations, however we will have a complete logic and pcb redesign! :lol:
-
This is a very interesting development. I noted that registered Mediator owners will receive notice of a special offer in January 2005. I'll reserve judgement until then.
Ostensibly, it resembles the specs for the SharkPPC with the exception of the IDE interface.
We shouldn't dismiss this based solely on the experience of the SharkPPC as they've produced some breakthrough hardware in the past like the Mediator, Power Tower and FastATA expansions.
In raw speed terms, at 410Mips it's 10x the performance of a 40Mhz 68040 CPU, however it's going to lose some performance due to patched / emulated routines. Elbox also state that " are ready to run most of the 68k Amiga programs/applications several times faster ", with the unspoken emphasis on "most".
-
This looks really good!! Perhaps competition for OS4. If I had to run OS4 I think I'd prefer to run it on my expanded A1200 than an Amigaone.
-
@smithy:
If indeed released, this thing would be capable of running 68k environment on steroids, and would not be able to run OS4.0 which is a PPC operating system.
In other words, you would still need either a BPPC/CSPPC card for your classic Amiga, or an AmigaOne, if you wish to run OS4.0.
-
This coldfire accerator board seems more useless than a bunch of broken lawn mower engines! :-)
-
@CU_AMiGA:
Del: These are not ordinary lawn-mower engines.
Rodney: Yeah?
Del: Yeah. They are broken lawn-mower engines.
:-)
-
x56h34 wrote:
@CU_AMiGA:
Del: These are not ordinary lawn-mower engines.
Rodney: Yeah?
Del: Yeah. They are broken lawn-mower engines.
:-)
lol I knew you'd remember that.
-
Del, I've got executive qualifications.
Oh leave it out Rodney. You couldn't even sell a black cat to a witch!
:-)
-
x56h34 wrote:
@smithy:
If indeed released, this thing would be capable of running 68k environment on steroids, and would not be able to run OS4.0 which is a PPC operating system.
In other words, you would still need either a BPPC/CSPPC card for your classic Amiga, or an AmigaOne, if you wish to run OS4.0.
Yeah I hear what you're saying... but I'm a MorphOS user and ever since all this kufuffle kicked off I've been keeping one eye on potential new platforms just in case MOS dies.
Or maybe MOS could be ported? Or maybe Elbox could line up another OS for it? (68k AmigaOS won't take advantage of the hardware and has no future path anyway), or maybe OS4 could be ported - I might be more tempted to go OS4 if I had an alternative to the AmigaOne hardware.
Edit:
I really hope they plan to produce a standalone motherboard. I'd buy one for sure.
-
It might not necessarily return the speed increases we are anticipating, the only way to tell is to see it working on our own systems.
For example, there must be a patch / emulation layer there to execute the instructions absent from the Coldfire. IIRC Coldfire CPUs aren't fitted with an FPU (someone might want to clarify), so floating point maths will need to be emulated somehow.
Either the system will be held together with patches, retargetting commands and glue logic (the flash ROM is 2Mb in size, four times larger than an A1200's ROM) or it may well require a coldfire specific compile of software to run at it's full potential.
-
PMC wrote:
It might not necessarily return the speed increases we are anticipating, the only way to tell is to see it working on our own systems.
For example, there must be a patch / emulation layer there to execute the instructions absent from the Coldfire. IIRC Coldfire CPUs aren't fitted with an FPU (someone might want to clarify), so floating point maths will need to be emulated somehow.
Either the system will be held together with patches, retargetting commands and glue logic (the flash ROM is 2Mb in size, four times larger than an A1200's ROM) or it may well require a coldfire specific compile of software to run at it's full potential.
As Neko told me this morning on IRC in his archetypally unpleasant way, this is no longer true. Freescale have an emulator for missing 68k instructions on Coldfire v4 and will give to anyone who asks. It can be put on firmware. The overhead this way is negligable, and not as scary as popularly believed.
-
x56h34 wrote:
If indeed released, this thing would be capable of running 68k environment on steroids, and would not be able to run OS4.0 which is a PPC operating system.
In other words, you would still need either a BPPC/CSPPC card for your classic Amiga, or an AmigaOne, if you wish to run OS4.0.
But...but...but Ben Hermans of Hyperion said that all you have to do is change flags and recompile modules for the same endian processor!!! It's easy, only idiots can't do it!
;)
-
Quote from Freescale's site:
* V4e ColdFire core with MMU, dual precision FPU and EMAC - delivering up to 410 (Dhrystone 2.1) MIPS at 266 MHz
It has both FPU and MMU.
We're using the 5484 for a project right now. Very cool stuff.
-
Reading the press release it sounds almost like the original A1 prototype - basically a computer in its own right with a connector for an A1200... Very interesting way of doing things :-)
Is it real? Don't know, given the Shark I am somewhat dubious about it, but for the moment I'm prepaired to give them the benefit of doubt.
If it is produced, I can see the interest in it reaching far outside the Amiga community - because there is a lot of interest in the Coldfire archatecture, and dev boards are hidously expensive.
-
the_leander wrote:
Reading the press release it sounds almost like the original A1 prototype - basically a computer in its own right with a connector for an A1200... Very interesting way of doing things :-)
Is it real? Don't know, given the Shark I am somewhat dubious about it, but for the moment I'm prepaired to give them the benefit of doubt.
If it is produced, I can see the interest in it reaching far outside the Amiga community - because there is a lot of interest in the Coldfire archatecture, and dev boards are hidously expensive.
It seems to be missing an IDE/ATAPI header, which would neatly sideline all the motherboard bottlenecks. It's the only way to go with our aged hardware IMHO. I'd love to see this system running some benchmark tests to see how it performs.
One thing no-one's picked up on yet: It's said to support ATI graphics cards. That means that someone's coded 68K native versions of drivers?
-
It almost sounds like the original AmigaOne project - a new motherboard with a bridge to the custom chips of a classic Amiga, only with a ColdFire chip instead of a PPC.
But, as said, it's only vaporware at this point. I'll be keeping an eye on this - perhaps an excuse to revive my A1200T.
Note, however, that the press release said most of the expandability would require additional modules, which will definitely jack up the price.
EDIT:
@ the_leander
You beat me to it! (The A1 simiilarity) :-)
-
Considering the price of buying an 060 board and a Mediator, this seems like a cheap soultion, even if the USB, serial and fastEthernet is optional.
I guess Elbox has written the software needed for the graphics cards, well some of them grahics cards supported actually works with the Mediator.
But I guess the right way to right now is PPC, and of that reason I think the Shark PPC cards are to be sold too, later.
Well, this was a surprise anyway. Would actually be nice to get one, as a second machine after the A1 ofcourse.
-
If this board is real, I'm going to buy it. But I don't have a Tower case. :boohoo:
-
Oh, my!
I hope this doesn't make Oliver's efforts useless.
-
Lucky for most Europeans Poland is now also a member of the European Econimic Community, which means that at least here in Belgium I don´t have to pay extra taxes to get an item from Elbox :lol:
-
maybe OS4 could be ported
There will be no OS4 for 68k compatible CPUs, neither the 68k, nor the ColdFire.
-
Perhaps competition for OS4.
Hardly. OS 4 is an OS, not a hardware. This will probably running OS 3.9, and let's face it, both OS 4 and MorphOS are ahead of that, and continue to widen the gap.
-
maybe OS4 could be ported - I might be more tempted to go OS4 if I had an alternative to the AmigaOne hardware.
To be honest, I wouldn't see any reason to do so. If there was a non-PPC target for OS 4, it would certainly be x86 or Athlon-64.
-
PMC wrote:
Either the system will be held together with patches, retargetting commands and glue logic (the flash ROM is 2Mb in size, four times larger than an A1200's ROM)
They did say the flash could also softkick a rom image, so it must have at least 512kb free..anyway the A1200 can use a 2mb rom, it`s just that no-one made another rom after CBM went tits up.
As for patches and glue logic, is it a bad thing? Without them we wouldn`t even have 060 cards.
The only thing I don`t like about this, is it`s not a plain trapdoor type accelerator, but (in Elbox`s words) a modular system with separate busboard and cpu card.
-
anyway the A1200 can use a 2mb rom
It can? There's only 1MB reserved for ROM in the 24bit address map though.
-
Piru wrote:
It can? There's only 1MB reserved for ROM in the 24bit address map though.
Well, according to the A1200 memory map...
A80000 to B7FFFF 1 MB System ROM
E00000 to E7FFFF 512 KB System ROM (second 1/2 if 1MB rom)
F80000 to FFFFFF 512 KB System ROM (first 1/2 if 1MB rom)
-
A80000 to B7FFFF 1 MB System ROM
That's interesting. I remember Zorro II I/O space being somewhere within Axxxxxx area.
Ah... found it from the Hardware Manual:
Memory space is the standard 8 megabyte space from $00200000-$009FFFFF. The I/O address space is mapped at $00E80000-$00EFFFFF, and a new 1.5 megabyte section (previously reserved for motherboard devices) from $00A00000-$00B7FFFF.
So re-using this address for ROM could conflict with some Zorro expansions at least.
-
B00tDisk wrote:
Absolute vapor. Wouldn't trust the annoucement as far as I could throw the server it's hosted on. There are apparently still significant problems getting the Coldfire to (properly) emulate the 68k instruction set (so I've heard).
Surely it's more flame-and-smoke than vapour ware?
OMFG, how lame was that?
*apologies*
-
KennyR: But...but...but Ben Hermans of Hyperion said that all you have to do is change flags and recompile modules for the same endian processor!!!
Heh... yeah, I'm sure they'll make a MIPS version, next, too. :-)
CyberStorm: Considering the price of buying an 060 board and a Mediator, this seems like a cheap soultion, even if the USB, serial and fastEthernet is optional.
Who on earth would want them seperate, and keep their external clutter over integrated electronics?
AmigaOne was supposed to have 6 PCI slots, right? How silly the idea seems these days.
Funny how this board will supposedly support something that all PCs have and no official Amiga has -- USB 2.0.
-
Waccoon : maybe funny but it was also Elbox who offered the driver for the Spider USB 2.0 card, not ???
-
x56h34 wrote:
It also seems to be compatible with A1200 only, for now. :-)
If it does come out, it would be a classic Amiga dream come true. It would also be bad for AmigaOne/OS4.0 sales, and would most definitely discourage some people from migrating to AmigaOne from the classics.
I dunno about that. Regardless of what they say, generic 680x0 code does not run on coldfire without some degree of modification / intervention. They would need a very effective (read Dynamo) style JIT to get 680x0 code running at full potential. A trap based emulation of missing instructions would be a poor affair.
Secondly, a 266MHz coldfire is unlikely to run coldfire compatible 680x0 code faster than OS4/Petunia on a G4.
If the card appears, and it works then it will definately be a 680x0 coder's dream, no doubt about that, but I don't expect it to compete in performance terms with G3/G4 PPC based solutions in real world tests.
-
Hey it just occured.
Someone is missing from this thread. If anybody knows tjaoz, I think they should check his place and make sure the milk bottles and newspapers aren't piling up...
-
Karlos wrote:
x56h34 wrote:
It also seems to be compatible with A1200 only, for now. :-)
If it does come out, it would be a classic Amiga dream come true. It would also be bad for AmigaOne/OS4.0 sales, and would most definitely discourage some people from migrating to AmigaOne from the classics.
I dunno about that. Regardless of what they say, generic 680x0 code does not run on coldfire without some degree of modification / intervention. They would need a very effective (read Dynamo) style JIT to get 680x0 code running at full potential. A trap based emulation of missing instructions would be a poor affair.
Secondly, a 266MHz coldfire is unlikely to run coldfire compatible 680x0 code faster than OS4/Petunia on a G4.
If the card appears, and it works then it will definately be a 680x0 coder's dream, no doubt about that, but I don't expect it to compete in performance terms with G3/G4 PPC based solutions in real world tests.
I would assume that code compiled nativley for the coldfire CPU would before better than 68k code running on it.
In theory, one could compile userland AROS code as native coldfire code, and just have the bare minimum of the OS as 68k code.
Less performance hit then.
-
Karlos wrote:
Hey it just occured.
Someone is missing from this thread.
That`s cos this thread is already about Elbox, and not about a competing product from E3B or Individual Computers...
-
You know, even I have lost all faith in OS4/AOne. I seriously doubt OS4 will ever be released to the general public. Especially after being sold to some unknown company for a year before anyone in the scene was ever told about it. As far as I'm concerned, ColdFire processors and AROS are the future of Amiga. Screw PPC... 68k forever!
-
Why being so negative about it ??? :-? Are you also so negative about the pci busboards for the Amiga´s too ??? :-? This is also not exactly native to the Amiga, is it ??? :-? But it´s a great step forward for our old machines, and anything that helps them forward is good in my eyes, the PPC cards, the Dragon, as long as there is support for and not too many wars between companies then why say no to it ??? :-? You should embrace this with open arm :lol:
-
More info on the Dragon FAQ (http://elbox.com/faq_dragon.html).