Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: GreggBz on December 02, 2004, 10:57:38 PM
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To the Game Boy Advance or DS?
Some one has already ported UNIX (http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/gbaunix/) (Version 5 through a PDP-11 emulator and an abstraction layer) to the GBA.
How about porting Amiga OS (Classic OS, like 3.1) Believe it or not, I imagine this would have a viable market.
I'm looking at the power the DS here, is certainly capable enough to compete with the more robust and twice as expensive PDA's that are currently on the market.
A polished OS would make the DS very marketable in my mind, as an alternative to other PDA's. Particularly since the DS has such an innovative design. In my opinion Nintendo is an innovative company that deserves more attention in the consumer computer market.
Let's face it, the AmigaONE is going nowhere fast. Porting an existing OS to a homogonous platform that is likely to be around for 3-5 years might be a better idea. It just seems like a good fit. Amiga OS has a simple effective and efficient GUI that would suit itself well to handheld devices.
I'm sure the Linux community is eyeing a similar solution, but hey, how suited to the DS is a modern Unixish OS? Not very.
I hope the Amiga COMMUNITY can get it's butts in gear and organize a team to pursue this endeavor seriously. It's an enormous task, but there are so many people still involved with the community I have to believe it's possible. Maybe we can start by writing UNIX guy a letter. He mentions porting Mac OS in the bottom of the article. He's not alone either, there are lots of developers writing neat stuff for the GBA.
......Calling all low level programmers..
Oh and someone rich enough to purchase the SDK and whatever licensing logistics are necessary from Nintendo
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Whilst I don't share your downbeat sentiment about the current PPC Amigas (be it A1 or Peg), if you want a port of the OS to the system you mention, you really could choose AROS. Unlike the genuine OS3.x, the source for AROS is both available and designed for portability.
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Let's face it, the AmigaONE is going nowhere fast.
??
how do you figure that?
why don't you locate an OS4 beta tester and ask them. new updates come everyday.
from what I've seen in local user groups, it's coming along just fine.
you need to get out some. :-D
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umm... OS4 v 0.001a is better then Amiga OS 3.1 LOL.
with proper development and time OS4 will surpass MorphOS if devel and BBRV do not settle their differences.
Why not port UAE to DS or GBA.. UAE can run 1.3 --> 3.9
-Alex
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Didn't we just cover this in another recent topic.
Not going to happen.
Try AROS, Open Source and portable.
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cecilia wrote:
from what I've seen in local user groups, it's coming along just fine.
Define "fine". In 2000 Amiga Format was selling 11,000 copies, and this still wasn't enough to keep it or the Amiga going. AmigaONE's price and relative obscurity would be lucky to sell another 1000 items. As a niche it may be surviving (if not flourishing), but it takes more than a four figure user base and a bunch of SDL ports to make a platform.
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GreggBz wrote:
I'm looking at the power the DS here, is certainly capable enough to compete with the more robust and twice as expensive PDA's that are currently on the market.
The Nintendo DS's 66MHz ARM9 can not compare to the latest (even low end) Intel XScale (PXA) processors. It's a good game system, but it lacks features that all other PDAs have (ie. local storage, large amounts of RAM, and expansion capabilities). Porting a micro kernel unix is completely different than a graphical multitasking OS.
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@KennyR
You do realise that its not done yet, right?
When it is done, ie OS4 complete, and there is Amiga branded boxed hardware, then I am sure we'll break a 4 digit userbase quite easily. There are people with money out there, who'll buy such a system as a geek toy even. But it needs to be functional to begin with!!!! There are thousands more waiting on sidelines until there is a release.
So we just need to wait a little more....and lets face it......you'd be daft to leave the community now. We're Oh So Close now. We've heard it all before, but most of us have witnessed tangible proof by now that there is progress. This is not time to be getting dispondent....It will fall short of our highest hopes, but be more than our expectations. Errr... I hope that made sense.
Cheer up yer old bugger....C'mon give us a grin.:-D
Ok. Going back to my happy place now. (http://64.33.47.100/images/a1000anim.gif)
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@BigBenAussie
I'm going to have to agree with KennyR on this one, and maybe take it a bit further. The AmigaOne is a joke. Eyetech's marketing strategy seems to be to raise prices and lower specs, all the while not addressing bugs in their current designs. Also, holding out for an OS that was promised years ago, and has only recently seen the public light as a test version, to run on outdated/overpriced/underperforming hardware is crazy. By the time OS4 does get released the majority of people waiting for it will have moved on. A G3 probably could have sold in 2000, but it's just been too long.
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BigBenAussie wrote:
You do realise that its not done yet, right?
When it is done, ie OS4 complete, and there is Amiga branded boxed hardware, then I am sure we'll break a 4 digit userbase quite easily.
But it is available right now, finished or not. Anyone who wants it can get it and be assured of a free update to the completed version when it's ever released (if it ever does have an official release), so where is the scary part here that's holding back these thousands of waiting customers from taking the plunge? Maybe there are no thousands of people waiting and almost everyone who is willing to pay for an A1 has either got OS4 already or given up on it? Or they are waiting for the price of the hardware to go down, which it won't. Either way, I'm not convinced Eyetech can provide 10,000 muA1s anyway, to say the least!
Put it this way, given Amiga fortunes since the bankruptcy of Commodore a decade ago, which is more likely - that I'm over pessimistic or that you're over-optimistic?
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adolescent wrote:
A G3 probably could have sold in 2000, but it's just been too long.
The G3s they made back then were clocked a lot slower and had a lot smaller cache. A moder PPC750 series processor does quite well. Also the AmigaOne has an upgradable processor socket so when the 750VX (with Altivec) is released AmigaOne will be waiting for it.
The AmigaOne is a joke. Eyetech's marketing strategy seems to be to raise prices and lower specs, all the while not addressing bugs in their current designs.
If you're referring to the cache-refresh bug: That's a bug in the version of Linux that the old AmigaOnes shipped with. AOS 4 doesn't have a problem with it. If you're referring to the hard drive controller bug: That can be remedied by adding a hard-drive controller card or wait for the imminent fix that Eyetech is working on.
If you're referring to the MicroA1 having low specs compared to a full-sized desktop then why don't you look at Via's Epia series mini-itx motherboards. You just can't fit much onto a mini-itx board nowadays. Besides mini-itx motherboards are geared toward the embedded market, not the desktop market. They use G3 processors becuase they are 8 watt wonders.
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@adolescent
I'm going to have to agree with KennyR on this one, and maybe take it a bit further. The AmigaOne is a joke. Eyetech's marketing strategy seems to be to raise prices and lower specs, all the while not addressing bugs in their current designs.
I totally agree. I don't even see that Eyetech have a marketing strategy. They just say, we got'em if you want'em. Actually, I'm sure there is no clause in the agreement that states that KMOS have to go with Eyetech's hardware in a system they release. For all we know there may be something else in the works. What? You think everything happens on the internet? But even if there isn't anything else aside from Eyetech hardware, at least its a first step.
Also, holding out for an OS that was promised years ago, and has only recently seen the public light as a test version, to run on outdated/overpriced/underperforming hardware is crazy.
outdated/overpriced/underperforming...Do you see me spending my money yet? I'm really hoping better hardware comes along, but failing that, beggars can't be choosers. You want the feelin' you know what ya gotta do. Dude, you're not holding out for an new Amiga OS? Err....What are you doing here then? Don't rain on the parade.
By the time OS4 does get released the majority of people waiting for it will have moved on.
What are you talking about....They've gone already. :-D
You can't lose what you haven't got. Everyone will have to come back, but you need to have something tangible to show them first and I don't see it. Even if its outdated/overpriced/underperforming, at least hide that away in a box, so I can show off the power of the system without the glaringly bad specs. The specs might not be impressive but the impression of the system might be. Most Amigas, spec wise, were left in the dust by the PC revolution early in the game, but it didn't necessarily kill the platform. The Amiga has other strengths going for it... Do I, of all people, need to explain this to you.
A G3 probably could have sold in 2000, but it's just been too long.
Yep!!! Look, I'm as upset about it as you. But what ya gonna do?
@KennyR
But it is available right now, finished or not.
Dude, I've just said that is not good enough. Where's the standard Amiga designed box? I've put PCs together, but I'm not putting an Amiga together. An Amiga is not a kit computer, nor is an Apple. An Amiga needs to be more like an Apple, as it used to be. I wish powers that be realised this...Maybe they do.... because as I said...ITS NOT FINISHED YET!!! When its finished, maybe then they'll do what they need to make it FEEL finished.
Anyone who wants it can get it and be assured of a free update to the completed version when it's ever released (if it ever does have an official release), so where is the scary part here that's holding back these thousands of waiting customers take the plunge?
Are you kidding me? I wouldn't touch this mess with a barge pole. I want all this crap sorted out and boxed. I wanna press that 'on' switch and watch the bouncing ball spin. I don't wanna screw around with partitions, UBoot crap, special scripts or obscure environment settings. What is this? MSDOS??? Just freaking boot and leave me alone!!!!! Its not turnkey yet!!!! Honestly, how could I possibly recommend an A1+OS4 to anyone in the shape you get it now? At least box the thing. I'll go through the kit stuff for a PC but I expect more from an Amiga. The Amiga was not a KIT computer, and I refuse to stoop to that level, and make it so. If that is what having an Amiga has become, then they wont see my money EVER.
Maybe there are no thousands of people waiting and almost everyone who is willing to pay for an A1 has either got OS4 already or given up on it?
Well, apart from me of course..... Its not ready for ME to recommend to ANYBODY!!! And that is my point. A lot of past Amiga users who left, don't even know there is an attempt to bring it back.... But, believe me....they ARE interested. People do remember the Amiga fondly, but I haven't seen one to recommend yet!!!
Or they are waiting for the price of the hardware to go down, which it won't. Either way, I'm not convinced Eyetech can provide 10,000 muA1s anyway.
I don't know about the price going down, and I don't know how many Amigas can be sold. But there is a bigger market than the people we see on this newsgroup. We gotta stop thinking small time to hit the big time. And that is what you want...right?
Ok. Going back to my happy place now. (http://64.33.47.100/images/a1000anim.gif)
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And to make it a bit more confusing, there are also loads of users with classic Amiga´s with PPC cards that also want to use OS4 when it comes out with a fix for their cards !! I also have got an A1200 with PPC 233 Mhz/060 and I don´t see a reason to get me an AmigaOne. I prefer to wait for OS4 to be fixed to run on my card too and then I am willing to pay for the OS just like I paid for OS3.9 and was/am very happy about it !! :-)
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
If you're referring to the cache-refresh bug: That's a bug in the version of Linux that the old AmigaOnes shipped with.
Nope, thats just how Linux works, and works quite well on any other fairly modern piece of HW. Now remember that the Articia was designed and targeted for Linux, and that a few 1000s "Amigas" will never be enough to refinance development.
So it's either a bug or "incompetent Northbridge-Design", which is nothing else but a bug on purpose.
And if it had been a simple bug, why did it take 4 years to fic it ? And why did the patch never make it into the standard-kernel of any distro ?
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
The G3s they made back then were clocked a lot slower and had a lot smaller cache. A moder PPC750 series processor does quite well. Also the AmigaOne has an upgradable processor socket so when the 750VX (with Altivec) is released AmigaOne will be waiting for it.
A good point, but the PPC750 is hardly a new design and has been available in AmigaOne speeds for some time (2000?). And, yet another "when it's released...".
If you're referring to the hard drive controller bug: That can be remedied by adding a hard-drive controller card or wait for the imminent fix that Eyetech is working on.
So, instead of standing behind their product and fixing a well known bug the end user is responsible for buying additional hardware, or just wait some more and hope they eventually fix it. It's been 2 over years already.
If you're referring to the MicroA1 having low specs compared to a full-sized desktop then why don't you look at Via's Epia series mini-itx motherboards. You just can't fit much onto a mini-itx board nowadays.
I've priced the EPIA motherboards and they are in general hundreds of dollars cheaper (the top of the line EPIA with a decent processor would be about 2/3 the cost of a MicroA1) and are available with modern features like firewire, USB 2.0, faster RAM, faster IDE, etc.
Besides mini-itx motherboards are geared toward the embedded market, not the desktop market. They use G3 processors becuase they are 8 watt wonders.
Then why is Eyetech marketing them to consumers? Is this another amazing decision by the Eyetech marketing department?
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BigBenAussie wrote:
What are you talking about....The Amiga has other strengths going for it... Do I, of all people, need to explain this to you.
You're gonna need to explain it to me :-)
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@GreggBz
It smells like KMOS plan is to get AOS4 on multiple devices, also mobile PPC devices.
Better support Hyperion to finalize the portable version of AOS (meaning AOS4), rather than do the SAME work all AGAIN.
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@KennyR
"Define "fine". In 2000 Amiga Format was selling 11,000 copies, and this still wasn't enough to keep it or the Amiga going."
What???
In 2000:
a) Amiga Inc was offering NOTHING for AOS fans, people went for MOS & Linux & etc.
b) Amiga Format is not Amiga, it is a magazine, produced by some bigger publishing company that needed to maximize profits. They made more profit elsewhere. Etc...
c) It kept Amiga going. The proof: AOS4 and MOS
"AmigaONE's price and relative obscurity would be lucky to sell another 1000 items. As a niche it may be surviving (if not flourishing), but it takes more than a four figure user base and a bunch of SDL ports to make a platform."
AmigaOne is not the end of development plan. It was planned to be the stepping stone and R&D platform towards future.
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by bloodline on 2004/12/3 3:16:33
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BigBenAussie wrote:
What are you talking about....The Amiga has other strengths going for it... Do I, of all people, need to explain this to you.
You're gonna need to explain it to me
Make sure you use simple English (small words). :-P
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@adolescent
"The AmigaOne is a joke."
No more than Peg1 or even Peg2.
AmigaOne is especially good as a hobby (anything can be good as a hobby).
"Eyetech's marketing strategy seems to be to raise prices and lower specs,"
How? mA1c is cheaper than A1XE and others.
And it's good that AOS4 is not tied to Eyetech or MAI.
"all the while not addressing bugs in their current designs."
Eyetech has arranged new revisions of motherboard to address HW bugs, just like Genesi.
(only their guarrantee system sucks) :-(
"Also, holding out for an OS that was promised years ago, and has only recently seen the public light as a test version,"
Now there is a concrete progress and usable and stable version @ the hands of (pioneer)users and developers.
Public version is more of a developer version than BETATESTER version. (betatesting is done internally)
"to run on outdated/overpriced/underperforming hardware is crazy."
Is there a better realistic alternative somewhere ?????
"By the time OS4 does get released the majority of people waiting for it will have moved on."
Nothing new since year 2001, right?
I see a lot of people asking for it. (some also on non-amiga forums)
"A G3 probably could have sold in 2000, but it's just been too long."
Depends on the target audience and target use.
There are PPC variants suitable for:
- PDAs and "communicator" phones
- laptops
- desktops
- servers
- supercomputers
Surely mA1i is good if not ideal for a lot of embedded devices (kiosks, players, etc)
But also I would like to see 1.4Ghz G4 option for mA1C.
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Argo wrote:
by bloodline on 2004/12/3 3:16:33
Quote:
BigBenAussie wrote:
What are you talking about....The Amiga has other strengths going for it... Do I, of all people, need to explain this to you.
You're gonna need to explain it to me
Make sure you use simple English (small words). :-P
And don't mention socks... I get easilly distracted :-D
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@KennyR
"Anyone who wants it can get it and be assured of a free update to the completed version when it's ever released"
Is that really the case? To me it's not 100% clear or sure.
And always OEM version lack something from the "stand alone".
" (if it ever does have an official release), so where is the scary part here that's holding back these thousands of waiting customers from taking the plunge?"
You said one by yourself: perhaps it never matures to official release state
Some people:
- are waiting for bugfixed version. (IIRC, this is the case with people like Hooligan and JoannaK that have shown some interest)
- wait for guarrantee to start to work.
- wait for ATX (or atleast bigger than ITX) motherboard.
- wait for more powerfull CPU.
- wait for second hand (cheaper) boards.
- wait to see it first
- have not heard about it
- want to see final AOS4.0 before they buy anything.
- wait to see wich is better in final release state MOS or AOS
- wait for hell to freeze (smithy) ;)
I wait untill I have more time for my hobby... and that G4 is available again (but "have time" is the main reason, but when suitable model exist I might get one a little bit beforehand)
Other than those... I also doubt 10 000 sold units are reached with Amiga sales of just mA1c. (not counting possible linux version sales to china etc.)
I think a few extra thousand of ITX and microATX desktop sales are possible, if specs remain ~y2000 x86 HW level.
Other niches need to be pursued if more modern HW is out of reach.
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Back on the subject:
UAE on Gameboy DS: wasn´t somebody going port UAE to the GP32?
Or rather rewrite? if the 133Mhz GP32 can´t do it then there isn´t any chance for a 66Mhz Gameboy DS?
AROS on Gameboy DS: IF somebody gets linux on it you could make a hosted version. Native isn´t worth the effort.
But why Gameboy DS?
Me, I would get something based on NanoITX instead. 533Mhz 1024MB RAM running WinUAE or native AROS with AROS-UAE. :-D
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adolescent wrote:
I've priced the EPIA motherboards and they are in general hundreds of dollars cheaper (the top of the line EPIA with a decent processor would be about 2/3 the cost of a MicroA1) and are available with modern features like firewire, USB 2.0, faster RAM, faster IDE, etc.
...smaller processor cache, memory not included, bloated os, ... :-P BTW The uA1-I model HAS firewire and a faster IDE.
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KimmoK wrote:
"The AmigaOne is a joke."
No more than Peg1 or even Peg2.
AmigaOne is especially good as a hobby (anything can be good as a hobby).
Ok, I'll agree with that. Maybe I should have said "ALL next generation Amigas are jokes".
How? mA1c is cheaper than A1XE and others.
And it's good that AOS4 is not tied to Eyetech or MAI.
The price difference is negligable true. But the fact that the "new" system is now using year 2000 specs doesn't make sense. Computer hardware goes down in price, not up. The feature set of the micro and lack of expansion is much less than the A1XE, and couple that with having to buy the OS seperately. The only thing the micro has going for it is it's form factor.
"all the while not addressing bugs in their current designs."
Eyetech has arranged new revisions of motherboard to address HW bugs, just like Genesi.
(only their guarrantee system sucks) :-(
A new revision, or a user funded fix doesn't really help the hundreds of users that have existing boards. Any real company would have issued a recall, halted production, and offered a real fix. Eyetech in large have ignored the problem. If anything, they could at least send out a $20 IDE card to all registered owners to show they have at least an itsy bitsy amount of customer service.
"Also, holding out for an OS that was promised years ago, and has only recently seen the public light as a test version,"
Now there is a concrete progress and usable and stable version @ the hands of (pioneer)users and developers.
Public version is more of a developer version than BETATESTER version. (betatesting is done internally)
Yes. I've seen it, but it still doesn't help that there is no release date set.
"to run on outdated/overpriced/underperforming hardware is crazy."
Is there a better realistic alternative somewhere ?????
See "joke" comment above.
"By the time OS4 does get released the majority of people waiting for it will have moved on."
Nothing new since year 2001, right?
I see a lot of people asking for it. (some also on non-amiga forums)
Are these messages from AmigaOne owners wanting to finally use their computers? :-)
"A G3 probably could have sold in 2000, but it's just been too long."
Depends on the target audience and target use.
There are PPC variants suitable for:
- PDAs and "communicator" phones
- laptops
- desktops
- servers
- supercomputers
Surely mA1i is good if not ideal for a lot of embedded devices (kiosks, players, etc)
More of the same "coming soon", "when it's released", etc. And, I don't want a kiosk, I want a computer.
But also I would like to see 1.4Ghz G4 option for mA1C.
I'd be happy with an XC-G4 at 1.4GHz. But, again see above.
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SamuraiCrow wrote:
...smaller processor cache
While that's true, cache size is not the only factor in a processors performance. For instance, you can get a P4 based mini-itx system that will outperform the PPC750FX/GX with half the L2 cache.
memory not included
Bad argument. Not being forced to buy, and probably later throw away, Eyetech's overpriced 256M SODIMM is a good thing.
bloated os
Full featured OS? If you don't like Windows, then take your pick from the various Linux distributions. While they're generally filled with software, its the installers choice. And, since Eyetech provides this same Linux, you could say that the mA1 has a bloated OS also.
BTW The uA1-I model HAS firewire and a faster IDE.
No CPU upgrade, still no USB2.0. But, since it hasn't been released, I'll withhold judgement.
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KennyR wrote:
cecilia wrote:
from what I've seen in local user groups, it's coming along just fine.
Define "fine". In 2000 Amiga Format was selling 11,000 copies, and this still wasn't enough to keep it or the Amiga going. AmigaONE's price and relative obscurity would be lucky to sell another 1000 items. As a niche it may be surviving (if not flourishing), but it takes more than a four figure user base and a bunch of SDL ports to make a platform.
I don't give a crap about business.
that is, I'm not running a business.
Fine means: At user meetings I look at people using the OS and it works - and when things don't work I complain and a beta report goes out and it improves.
to me, that's "FINE".
to me, OS4 is a hobby OS. at least for now. and I'm enjoying it. As it matures, it may become something "bigger". but that won't happen without people helping to build it. I'm not one of those nerd fan-boys that thinks dreaming about The Great Overtaking of Amiga on an Unsuspecting World will happen next week. or possibly ever.
I live in the real world. I've worked with people who started their Special Effects company using Amigas, but as time went on they had to include MACs, PC's, Alphas, etc to "keep up".
I've done some of my best work using AfterEffects which is only on MACs and PC's.
That doesn't mean I've forgotten my past or don't still love using AmigaOS.
So, I will continue to enjoy my hobby OS - and even use it for work sometimes! but I'm not chucking out my multiboot Windows2000/linux/WinUAE PC laptop.
But when I can I'll get a micro with OS4.
just 'cause I wanna. and that's OK