Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Robert17 on November 28, 2004, 02:43:02 PM
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Hehe oh dear, looks like I've seen what to buy myself for christmas, couldn't help it :-o Expect many questions to come, I sure hope I did the right thing :-?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3543&item=8150430479&rd=1
Robert
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@ Anybody who knows
Is that Zorro daughter board (in the pics) a replacement for the A4000D Zorro riser or is it in fact a Zorro add-on for an A1200 mobo?
@ Robert
I have a Wizard mouse just like that, and it is great. If you don't get the disk that comes with it (some programs can use the middle button) let me know and I'll email you the DMS.
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Dya think the riser is the wrong part X-ray? I have the same mouse on my A1200 at the moment, only the one I have is white, I often wondered if the middle button could be made to work. Apparently the battery has leaked a little bit but because it's mounted on the side in a tower it hasn't affected the PCB, anyway I'm going to Bristol to collect to I can see it in the flesh :-D
Robert
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@ Robert
I'm just curious, haven't seen any 4000 tower other than my AT model.
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@X-Ray
The daughterboard is a replacement for the A400D daughterboard, so it will not fit an A1200.
@Robert
It's a nice setup you bought there, but if you want to do something nice for yourself get a faster CPU card (at best a 060 but a 040 will also do) and a graphics card for it. It will greatly enhance the usability of your Amiga.
I have the same tower at my parents house fitted with a WarpEngine 040 card and a Retina GFX card. Just a shame I don't use it that much anymore :(
First thing to check when you get the computer is to check if the battery has leaked. If it has you must remove it immediately.
AHA, just read the description more carefully, so get that battery out as soon as possible!
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its the original risercard, bundled with the Mikronik 4000Tower kit.
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/micro4000isabusb.html
even if it seems a different revision/design.
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@Framiga
You are wrong.. it's not the original Commodore reiserboard but a Microniks own that's made so that zorro cards installed will fit the backplane of the tower (horizontaly).
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@Brian
I think that's what Framiga meant (not original C= but original Micronik)
I have the same tower with Micronik 7 Zorro slot daughter card but for the A3000. It's huge!!!
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Yeah I'd like an accelerator too, after christmas though and for the right price, Cyberstorm mk3 060 would be great! and perhaps a prometheus with ethernet and a voodoo3 would work for the RTG and internet, for £120 buy it now I couldn't leave it, seeing as I needed something to buy myself for christmas :-D I've been told the Octagon SCSI controller is rather basic, what speeds can I expect from it?
Robert
Edit: DocotrQ, the seller has said the battery has leaked a little, but not onto the PCB as it's in a tower and presumeably just went to the bottom of the tower, but anyway that's why I'm driving 350 ish miles to see it :-)
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Brian . . .please . . .
"its the original risercard, bundled with the Mikronik 4000Tower kit"
i have an A4000 since 1992!!!
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@Robert17:
You are probably better of using the builtin A4000 IDE-controller than the Oktagon. This because the Oktagon is a Zorro2-card which uses DMA to transfer data and in a Zorro3-machine it will do its transfers to/from chip-mem resulting in rather poor performance. Though if you put in an A2000 it will perform very well.
/Patrik
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Cheers for the advice Patrik, I have a question about memory actually, what kind of memory do the motherboard slots take? I have a load of old type ram around from old 386 systems, maybe this will work?
Robert
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@Robert17:
The motherboard accepts four single-sided 4MB 72-pin SIMMS for a total of 16MB fastmem. I think the access-time should be atleast 70ns.
Btw, dont forget to check the clock-battery for leakage when you get it.
/Patrik
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I thought the A4000 motherboard took Zips or something, or am I thinking of The A3000? :-?
Robert
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Robert17 wrote:
I thought the A4000 motherboard took Zips or something, or am I thinking of The A3000? :-?
Robert
That would be the A3000. A4000D/T takes Simm memory modules
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@Framiga
Please... No need to go there...
@Robert17
That Micronik tower is the bomb. I had one like that several years back and it's realy well made. With the kind of work "red" have shown in how it's possible to fit the Prom into a A4000D I don't think you'll have to worry about fitting it in this tower. The market is filled with good and bad SCSI controllers... some that perform even worse when put in a Zorro3 slot... the Octagon goes into the last category. For driving the CDRom I guess it'll do but if you intend to connect harddrives and the like to the SCSI chain get another controller first.
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What I'd really like is CyberSCSI :-D But alas it'll have to wait until after christmas I think, however I've never had a cd-rom on an amiga before so it'll be an experience, worth upgrading to 3.9 dya think?
Robert
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@ Robert
CyberSCSI is a module that attaches to a Cyberstorm accelerator (you can't buy a CyberSCSI module and use it by itself). If you want to go that route, you will have to get a Cyberstorm first. And if you're going to get a Cyberstorm, you can do yourself a favour by trying to get a MK3 because it has an onboard Ultra-wide SCSI controller. You'll battle to find a Cyberstorm MK3 for sale though.
But the alternative is worse: trying to get a MK2 (which has no onboard SCSI) and then trying to find the CyberSCSI module for it. And you might find that a MK2 and a CyberSCSI module cannot be overclocked (that is how it is with mine). And the CyberSCSI is not Ultra-wide, it is Fast SCSI which is slower. So if I were you I would ask myself a little question: "How much am I willing to spend on an accelerator for my A4000?"
If you don't have a cash problem, then go for an accelerator that has an onboard SCSI (don't try to get the two components separately).
But if cash is tight, then you should get a Zorro-based SCSI controller like the Z3 Fastlane or the A4091.
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The WarpEngine also has a built in SCSI controller as well as 4 x 72 pins sockets for holding 128 MB ram, so that might also be an option. It's only a 040 but should be cheaper than a CyberStorm anyway.
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X-Ray, yeah I knew about the cyberstorm thing, I just wrote cyberscsi because it was shorter than saying the scsi on a cyberstorm, anyway, unfortunately I don't have more money than sense :lol: but what I'd really like is a Cyberstorm Mark III 060 or a Cyberstorm PPC, I've seen the PPC for sale on a website for reasonable prices, what is a good price for a CSIII 060, or a CSPPC?
Robert
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I have to disagree with X-Ray about the MKIII. In my oppinion it was well overpriced the day it came out and still usually is when bought used.
To sum up the benefits of a MKIII over an MKII:
- Faster RAM-interface (64 bit, you have to have two matching RAM-modules in socket 1,3 and 2,4)
- SCSI onboard and UW instead of fast SCSI-II with the MKII SCSI-modul (but you hardly feel the speed in everyday use, as long as you don`t move huge amount of data e.g many GB around every day, or when makeing a total Backup. I managed to get 26 MB/s out of my CSPPC at best compared to about 8MB/s with my MKII / SCSI-kit)
- Bootmenu that lets you configure the SCSI-controller and kill the onboard IDE and aktivate a preparemul like option.
- Possability to connect a CVisionPPC (but there really is no point of doing so without a PPC, for 2D any ZIII card is more then good enough and for 3D stuff a bare 060 lacks the power, though I have heard Freespace should be playable with that setup)
Another Problem is that it has the same 68k-socket dieing Problem as the CSPPC as it is the same design.
If money it tight try to get a MKII / CyberSCSI kombo (alternatively a Fastlane ZIII is a good option too, but make sure it has a 8.x ROM). If you stumble over a pile of money you have no better use for go all the way and get a CSPPC.
As for prices, I don`t know how it is in the UK but here in germany this are common going prices:
MKII 060: ~100-120 EUR
SCSI-Kit: ~ 60-70 EUR
MKIII 060: ~ 200 EUR
CSPPC 060/200: ~ 380-430 EUR
CSPPC 040/180: ~ 200-250 EUR
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I have seen that computercity in Rotterdam have a Cyberstorm PPC 060 50mhz with 233mhz 604e for 456 Euro, so thats... £320, not bad I guess, I'd pay £320 for it, just not yet lol, maybe buy an A3640, sort out rtg and bits and bobs, get it so I can use it as an everyday machine, MAS player for mp3s... then a shiny expensive accelerator later :-D
Robert
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@ Lemmink
According to the prices you are quoting (which I would like to see in reality) he can get a MKII with a SCSI module for 160 - 190 Euro, and he can get a MKIII for 200 Euro.
So at best he saves 40 Euros and at worst he saves 10 Euros (assuming he can even find a CyberSCSI module for the MKII).
Does that seem like a sensible thing for him to do, if your prices are right?
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@Brian
@Framiga
Please... No need to go there...
?!? :-?
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/me cues Twilight Zone music...
You are wrong..
Now, where have I heard that remarkable phrase before???
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@Framiga, Brian:
You two are a fun bunch ;=). You are both arguing that it's the Mikronik riserboard, whilst telling the other one he is wrong ;=).
Party on dudes!
/Patrik
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@adz
eh, eh yes i know :roll:
And it is for this reason, that i suggest Brian to think twice, before say: "You are wrong" again :-)
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Patrik
althoug i agree that it is funny but, i've NEVER said to no one "you are wrong" in my life . . never.
Doommy had in habit to say that . . . and now Brian too :-).
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@Framiga:
I definately agree that you didn't say that exact sentence, but you have to agree that with the way you answered, you were more than implying that he was wrong.
You both seem like very nice blokes so there should be no need to argue more about this, especially as the reason for the argument is misunderstanding from both sides from the very beginning.
/Patrik
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Breach of the peace at 2am.
You're all nicked! :lol:
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Karlos wrote:
Breach of the peace at 2am.
You're all nicked! :lol:
Oh no...its the old bill :-P
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by X-ray on 2004/11/28 23:18:30
@ Lemmink
According to the prices you are quoting (which I would like to see in reality) he can get a MKII with a SCSI module for 160 - 190 Euro, and he can get a MKIII for 200 Euro.
So at best he saves 40 Euros and at worst he saves 10 Euros (assuming he can even find a CyberSCSI module for the MKII).
Does that seem like a sensible thing for him to do, if your prices are right?
Well the prices I quoted are usual going prices on Ebay or in forums. While I have seen people trying to sell an MKIII for as much as 300 EUR I personally wouldn`t pay much more then 160 EUR for a MKII / SCSI kombo ever.
I wouldn`t pay more for an MKIII then for an MKII with SCSI too, since it is more likely to break down (when have you ever heard of a faulty MKII ?)
Well maybe it`s only that I never liked the MKIII from the start. When it came out it costed nearly as much as a small CSPPC and people seem to remember that when they try to sell it.
P.S. what do you find wrong about my price estimations ? Do you think they are too high ? Sure you can get away a little cheaper if you can wait..
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If u can't get scsi then another option is to get one of the ata (IDE) zorro boards eg fastATA 4000. big hard drives are cheaper as IDE rather than SCSI and also alot easier to get, as are cdroms and cd burners and the filesystem even allows you to use dvd drives and read dvd's (but not burn dvd). apparanlty it is possible to get 14 meg/sec. u should get OS3.9 with the updates though, and i have heard something not being quite right when a big (40-80 gigabytes) hard drive is partitioned with >4 gig partitions. anyone know more about this last thing?
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In a classic Amiga nerver ever use IDE if you have the chance to use SCSI. No matter how fast a FastATA4000 could be (I only managed to get 6-7 MB/s out of it) it still eats up all your CPU-Power while accessing the attached drives.
If you are after cheap big drives take an IDE->SCSI konverter.
You easyly get a used Fastlane cheaper then a new FastATA and it will make you much happier (plus you can add another 64 MB RAM with cheapo 4MB 8bit SIMMS, though they are quite slow).
The only excuse for IDE on a classic Amiga is that you have a BlizzardPPC without SCSI, in any other case get an SCSI controller or exchange your accelerator for one with an SCSI option.
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@ Lemmink
I think the prices you quoted are too low. I don't mean to say that the Cyberstorms are WORTH more, I mean to say that they get SOLD for more these days. The last 4 Cyberstorms that I saw all went for more than $400 on ebay (one of those was a MKII).
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Oktagon is a lot SLOWER than built-in IDE. So, no, SCSI is not always better.
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Framiga wasn't like crystal clear on his post... "its the original risercard, bundled with the Mikronik 4000Tower kit" should either not have the "original" in there or add RBM afterwards or something. Anyway... at least I missunderstood that and someone less knowledgable could do the same and so I posted. Either way theres no need to "sigh.. please.. talk to the hand.. rolleyes.. yawn" etc etc. As said it was a missunderstanding due to the post not being clear.
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Slighlt O/T but not really
I have an octagon scsi card, never used it, and a z4 busboard(zorro 2) for my A1200
I also have a nice cpu guzzling powerflyer gold in my a1200
whould the octagon be slower, but not use up all my clock cycles
which whould be the best to use or use both???
prehaps scsi hDD and powerflyer for my cd burner
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by orange on 2004/11/29 8:51:06
Oktagon is a lot SLOWER than built-in IDE. So, no, SCSI is not always better.
I`m not sure about the Powerflyer JJ mentioned later on, but I would actually prefer the Oktagon over the onboard IDE. Or more precise everything (appart from maybe some real stoneage dinosaurs like the A2090) is better then the onboard IDE.
You will only get 2MB/s from the A1200/A4000 IDE and that`s about what the Oktagon will reach too, plus lower CPU usage.
@ JJ
Saying what I have said the Powerfyer migh be the better option for you depending on how much speed you actually archive with it (my guess would be about 5MB/s in real live). As no ZII SCSI controller can surpass 2MB/s by much there will be a major drawback in speed.
If you take a look at a nice ZIII or turboboard controller there is a whole different picture. You will get 5-8 MB/s in real live plus low CPU usage.
So what Turboboard do you have ? If it is a Blizzard 1230/40/60 I strongly recommend that you get yourself an SCSI-Kit.
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I have a blizzard ppc 603e/175 040/25 without scsi
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@ Lemmink
I think the prices you quoted are too low. I don't mean to say that the Cyberstorms are WORTH more, I mean to say that they get SOLD for more these days. The last 4 Cyberstorms that I saw all went for more than $400 on ebay (one of those was a MKII).
The fact you state the price in $ means that you live in the US. I have allready learnd that you have to double the price of used Amigahardware from europe to come close to what is paid for it in the US.
Here you are hard pressed to find someone willig to pay more then 150 EUR for a basic A4000D with Kick 3.1 and Buster 11 (heck I have even seen some go for around 100 EUR even on Ebay when it is yellowed and scratched) while it is abagain in the US to get one for 250 $.
by JJ on 2004/11/29 17:40:55
I have a blizzard ppc 603e/175 040/25 without scsi
Well then I guess you are stuck with the powerflyer