Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ikir on November 24, 2004, 09:37:31 AM
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http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1899
Finally some good news from A Inc, they are still alive and busy :-)
MicroA1-C in stock and XE fixed :-D
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On Intuition Base there is a video from the show.
http://www.intuitionbase.net/
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finaly some good news, keep 'em comming :-)
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AGG in the video is impressive :-O
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Well... After seeing the video, what can I say as someone with no intention of getting an A1 or Pegasos.
The FTP-website bit was... how to put this without hurting anyone's feelings... well, I'm sure it's quite a step forwards for the platform, but I cannot help but say that it all appeared very archaic to me.
I'm happy to see that the jerkiness of OS4 window handling has disappeared: I recall seeing a video about a year ago which was pretty much the equivalent of msochism ;-). I liked the warping demo of both the lion and the fonts, but I have to add that this is really nothing special. You're seeing the result of (lots of) ordinary math, and some CPU power to make it fly. (What would be special is if this vector rendering takes the place of bitmap rendering throughout, but that idea is more than a little silly because of performance reasons.) And keep in mind, it does not use hardware rendering yet---which you really need for serious graphics work. You can add it to the library, we are told, but that takes more than just a bit of effort unless I'm terribly mistaken.
I found the start-up and reset time short, but not remarkable. Someone can be clearly heard saying Windows eat your heart out, but you can't really compare the two. Windows loads so much more into memory, and offers so much more functionality...
It would appear from the demo (in particular, the ease of the reset) that OS4 is still a standalone, single-user OS, which is fine with me, although it might make it less suitable for a computer in a household. Some might argue that this is just a load of bovine scatology, but I would very much prefer to make sure that other people using my computer cannot accidentally delete my stuff. I'm also not very happy with the idea of resetting a computer supporting virtual memory (even in the rudimentary form of OS4) as was shown in the video, but that is just my humble opinion.
OS4 really needs a proper directory lister as found in Windows' Explorer (well, not this particular program, but more the idea behind it :-)) or DOpus. I think I saw a few threads on this subject a while ago, so perhaps the problem's already been solved. In any case, all the windows opening across the screen lead to a lot of visual clutter, and you definitely need something in order to manage this.
It's good to see the ole' platform moving along, but I cannot help but wonder what the use is when everything shown can already be done on at least a dozen other major platforms with a much larger user base. Oh well, logic can only take you so far.
Now the real thing which is bugging me is how I can be on that video, as I was here in Amsterdam all the time :-D. There's someone there who has a profile just like me, same haircolour, same set of eyebrows, same set of glasses, same general build. Only the neck is different. I never knew I had a twin brother! I think it's time I confronted Mom & Dad ;-).
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I found the start-up and reset time short, but not remarkable
bootdelay was 3-4 sec, and OS selection 20 sec.
You can boot OS4 in less than 20 sec. Mine boot in about 12-15, and a soft rebbot takes only 7 seconds.
OS4 is simply the best AmigaOS update ever, from the video you don't see many of the new features of OS4, this was only a show.
AGG imho is quite impressive.
I'm really happy of my A1, AmigaOS PPC was a dream long awaited. The best thing is to try it at a show.
S4 really needs a proper directory lister as found in Windows' Explorer (well, not this particular program, but more the idea behind it ) or DOpus.
Dopus OS4 PPC native is coming.
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DOpus 4, ClassAction and DiskMaster 2 are all free and working very well. I like ClassAction best but it's only a matter of taste. I really hate Win Explorer though.
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Cymric wrote:
I'm happy to see that the jerkiness of OS4 window handling has disappeared:
Native graphics rules ;-) But actually, I was using OS4 with 68k graphics for months before the first prerelease was out and never found it difficult to live with. The fact that it now really flies is just a bonus...
I liked the warping demo of both the lion and the fonts, but I have to add that this is really nothing special. You're seeing the result of (lots of) ordinary math, and some CPU power to make it fly.
No, I think you missed the point. Graphics.library is a very bare shell providing things like line drawing. Anti-grain geometry provides a library that programmers can use within their software that saves them from having to reinvent the wheel. What that demo shows is that it is fast enough for use wherever people need high quality vector graphics in their software, and saves them from having to reinvent the wheel. It also produces very high quality anti-aliased output. This provides a good foundation for programmers. THATs whats impressive about the demos, not the fact that you can warp a picture of a cat.
I'm also not very happy with the idea of resetting a computer supporting virtual memory (even in the rudimentary form of OS4) as was shown in the video, but that is just my humble opinion.
Thats because your used to Windows and Linux. AmigaOS4 is being designed to allow you to "switch off at any time, provided the disk isn't accessing", the same as Amiga has always been.
It's good to see the ole' platform moving along, but I cannot help but wonder what the use is when everything shown can already be done on at least a dozen other major platforms with a much larger user base.
The fact is, I just prefer AmigaOS. This is the only reason people are *currently* using OS4. It is a foundation for the future, it is not in itself the future. It is only the first step on a new section of the Amiga journey.
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ikir wrote:
bootdelay was 3-4 sec, and OS selection 20 sec. You can boot OS4 in less than 20 sec. Mine boot in about 12-15, and a soft rebbot takes only 7 seconds.
As I said, short, but not impressive. I'm more concerned with uptime and crash resistence. You don't want to spend time turning on your computer all the time, and the ease of a reset to fix a problem (man, that PDF reader sure is burning CPU cycles, know what, I'm gonna reset, three-finger salute, poof) is an indication of both sloppy programming and sloppy use.
OS4 is simply the best AmigaOS update ever, from the video you don't see many of the new features of OS4, this was only a show. AGG imho is quite impressive.
Oh, I don't doubt you there. I'm just wondering why people are so excited about something which is more or less old hat on other platforms, sometimes even using the same CPU. But as I said, logic can only take you so far.
I'm really happy of my A1, AmigaOS PPC was a dream long awaited. The best thing is to try it at a show.
Again, no doubt there. But I have no intention of trying A1/OS4. Win2K and Linux serve me just fine, and do not restrict me as OS4 would when it comes to proper hard- and software selection.
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Finally some good news from A Inc, they are still alive and busy :-)
Busy doing what, answering questions? The A1 is Eyetech's deal so I don't see what they're actually busy doing. I seem also to remember that the last time they answered questions it turned out they'd sold the IP to KMOS and so rendered all the answers totally meaningless anyway.
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@KennyR
Busy doing what, answering questions?
I agree. What we have now (AmigaOne/OS4) is not because of Amiga Inc. But hey they work in the shadows secretly on advanced things that will change the world. Or was that just a dream?
Coder
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eh, amiga inc doesn't exist.
this is old news.
why is anyone even bringing up the name???
and if anyone wants to see how cool OS4 is coming along (I'm talking about the continuous stream of updates sent to beta testers), find someone who has one and look at it live.
I've seen it and it's great.
yes, the XP problem is fixable and the micros don't have that issue.
come on guys, get up to speed, here :-D
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I agree. What we have now (AmigaOne/OS4) is not because of Amiga Inc. But hey they work in the shadows secretly on advanced things that will change the world. Or was that just a dream?
They may work in the shadows, but I suspect it's just because they couldn't afford to pay the electric bill.
I still stand by my statement that the best thing that could happen to Amiga would be to have Amiga Inc go under. That way, the real heros (Hyperion, Eyetech, etc) don't have to pay royalties out their arses to a company that hasn't really done much for them except burn money.
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@Ilwrath
They may work in the shadows, but I suspect it's just because they couldn't afford to pay the electric bill.
Oh man that's a funny one! :-)
Coder
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Ok, so Amiga Inc. no longer exists at all ( not even on paper ) or is it simply a subsidiary of Kmos ( in which case it would exist on paper )?
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@Orjan
Ok, so Amiga Inc. no longer exists at all ( not even on paper ) or is it simply a subsidiary of Kmos ( in which case it would exist on paper )?
...simply a subsidiary of Kmos. If I am not mistaken.
Coder
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eh, amiga inc doesn't exist.
this is old news.
why is anyone even bringing up the name???
If Amiga Inc. is a subsidiary to Kmos, then the company does exist.. :-)
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@KennyR
DO you know? Me not, so i don't speculate :-) Maybe (MAYBE) finally they are moving.
As I said, short, but not impressive. I'm more concerned with uptime and crash resistence
My A1 is 24/24 on and online :-)
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ikir wrote:
My A1 is 24/24 on and online :-)
That's more like it. Any idea on resistence to memory fragmentation?
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My A1 is 24/24 on and online :-)
Hi Ikir!
Same here :-)
Record uptime with the OS4-PR-Update here is 8 days and 15 hours this far :-D
Had to boot into Linux then, otherwise it could have been longer. :-)
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@Cymric
"It's good to see the ole' platform moving along, but I cannot help but wonder what the use is when everything shown can already be done on at least a dozen other major platforms with a much larger user base. Oh well, logic can only take you so far."
It's simple really. Operating systems offer so many more features these days but it's still the simple ones which users need and desire most.
It was a few releases before Mac OS X was an OS that people could use full-time. In the beginning it lacked CD burning, DVD playback, printer sharing and other things. Even OS 4 has some of them!
When the Finder gets simple read & write FTP support there'll be a huge buzz - Windows and Linux folks just take it for granted.
You have to put yourself in the position of someone constantly have to work around annoying omissions. Let's say Microsoft introduce pop-up blocking into Internet Explorer. Every other browser has it, but if you're forced to use IE by your company say, you'd be punching the air.
Chris
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Orjan wrote:
eh, amiga inc doesn't exist.
this is old news.
why is anyone even bringing up the name???
If Amiga Inc. is a subsidiary to Kmos, then the company does exist.. :-)
Amiga Inc does not exist like it did before. (a separate company)
KMOS bought the name so they could license stuff. (to put it very simply. i ain't a lawyer)
Amiga does not exist. "it" can not make press releases, announcements, etc.
saying it does exist gives people the wrong impression.
what exists is the people manufacturing the boards and other people writing OS4 (and testing it).
and that's all that really matters.
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clebin wrote:
@Cymric
"It's good to see the ole' platform moving along, but I cannot help but wonder what the use is when everything shown can already be done on at least a dozen other major platforms with a much larger user base. Oh well, logic can only take you so far."
[...]
You have to put yourself in the position of someone constantly have to work around annoying omissions. Let's say Microsoft introduce pop-up blocking into Internet Explorer. Every other browser has it, but if you're forced to use IE by your company say, you'd be punching the air.
Which is precisely my point. Instead of painfully coding the utilities and tools you need, you could be using them already. To stick with your example: nobody forces you to use an Amiga---at least, I know of no company which forces its employees to use the machine. Well, save Hyperion perhaps. That is why I said that logic fails. Apparently people like to work around annoying problems all the time. I prefer to use what is available, which is a strategy which pays off when there are more users supporting a platform.
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I see where you are coming from but I am sure you would be delighted to see the platform gain credence again.
doesn't everyone wish for the underdog to win?
Well except for the cats
Joke :-D
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cecilia wrote:
Amiga does not exist. "it" can not make press releases, announcements, etc.
saying it does exist gives people the wrong impression.
what exists is the people manufacturing the boards and other people writing OS4 (and testing it).
and that's all that really matters.
A couple of years ago I worked at an Ericsson company here in Sweden, and at one point management decide to "outsource" the stuff we did there. So they closed down that company, and sold of its assets to another company, where I work today.. The Ericsson company I used to work for can´t make any press-releases and so on, since it doesn´t exist anymore , either in reality or on paper.
If we take another Swedish company, SAAB, which have been bought by General motors ( if I am not mistaking ), they can make press-releases and so on since the company still exists, but with a new parent-company.
So, the fact that Amiga Inc. has been bought by Kmos is not in doubt, however, if Amiga Inc. is a subsidiary to Kmos, then the company would still exist, but with a new parent-company. At least, thats how I thought things work.. :-)
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The fact is, I just prefer AmigaOS. This is the only reason people are *currently* using OS4. It is a foundation for the future, it is not in itself the future. It is only the first step on a new section of the Amiga journey.
I like AOS, too. I'm waiting to see if I can get the software I need to do things I wanna do that "can already be done on at least a dozen other major platforms with a much larger user base". Specifically, video editing software so I can start my mega awesome movie making empire. :-) I'm holding onto my money until then because right now, I can do everything else (email, text editing, etc.) on the computers at school.
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@Orjan
I remember saying it before, but AI being a subsidiary has brought it back to the way things were before. Every "Amiga" company was always a subsidiary until AI came along. Now, with KMOS, it's back to it's roots as a subsidiary. :-)
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I also love AmigaOS. It is certainly more enjoyable to use than any Windows version I have come across IMHO.
People can harp on all they like about how far Amiga is behind, but for some people being a little behind in terms of features is a small price to pay for an operating system that is more fun and enjoyable to use.. and that is why Amiga users still exist strongly in 2004.
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@weirdami:
Do you honestly believe that that software will become available on a minor, nearly forgotten, severely underpowered and severely overpriced platform first? If your answer is yes, then so be it. I will of course question the widsom of such a decision, but if that's what you want, I can't and won't hold you back. In the meantime, can I ask you, just out of interest---as I am not into the video/film making business---what kind of systems are out there on major platforms, and whether you have evaluated them critically? What was the outcome?
@HopperJF:
Excuse me for snickering at your remark that Amiga users still exist strongly in 2004, and then seeing your sig about 'Get Firefox now!' I found the two lines of text quite contradictory :-).
As for fun to use... Perhaps you are right. But since 'fun to use' equals 'use the kind of programs I need quickly and efficiently' in my book, I have long since give up on properties such as 'character', 'uniqueness', and so forth. It might be important to some people; it isn't to me. As I said, logic can only take you so far.
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weirdami wrote:
@Orjan
I remember saying it before, but AI being a subsidiary has brought it back to the way things were before. Every "Amiga" company was always a subsidiary until AI came along. Now, with KMOS, it's back to it's roots as a subsidiary. :-)
Hi-Toro wasn't a subsiduary! :-P
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@Cymric
Logic only goes so far, but that doesn't make a decision based on emotion, gut instinct or something else subjective illogical. You seem to know the answer, but don't really understand it.
You know what your preferences are when you find yourself almost involuntarily doing something. It's not something you can make grand statements on an internet forum about.
If you're looking for someone to say "yes, I admit it, the logical thing is to buy a PC. I must be stupid, but I still prefer using an Amiga for the same things. I can explain some of it, but not all of it" then fine. Does that make you feel superior because you're so efficient and logical about everything?
Taking my earlier point about working around problems. Yes, for a while I dual-booted my Mac and ran apps in Classic. But I still found myself booting OS X because the things it COULD do it did in a more pleasing way.
And it obviously worked out, because now I have no need for anything else. I even use it at work and it still puts a smile on my face where Windows makes me frown. I think it's the best OS in the world right now.
Obviously some of us see OS 4 the same way and the hardships of owning 2 machines or dual-booting are hardly the end of the world.
Let's say OS 4 improves, the apps you want come out, the hardware falls in price and you can put it all into an A1200-style Amiga Fantasy case and plug it into you TV. Even you, Cymric, might end up buying one and enjoying it.
It's all very well you jumping on board then, but don't go criticising the people who are putting the money in now, keeping it afloat and trying to make that future happen.
Chris
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Actually no, Windows users do not take FTP support for granted.
I had been a Windows user for many years, Explorer's
FTP support is so HORRIBLY broken that it's absolutely useless.
Sometimes, it practically locks up waiting for the FTP server
to reply. Either you have to wait for it to timeout or you just kill it,
as I used to do.
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It's usually been OK for me, although it's a real pain when Explorer locks up. Believe me though, OS X's FTP support is even worse and also locks up the Finder (...although it's usually easier to restart)
I don't what Microsoft's problem is, but Apple have neglected the Finder shamefully. They're not small companies - you'd think they could get FTP right!
Chris
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Or the FTP program may end up on AMINET when OS4 gets released.
Plenty of people program up apps and release them to the public on AMINET. One of my favourites was CSH.
I love AMINAEt. When OS4 is out and people go update, AMINET is going to be a huge + for this platform.
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@ Shades
You can find a lot of OS4 native software on:
www.os4depot.net
It also cross upload to aminet the files if the author wants it.
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Well, I'm surprised anything is happening, but I'd rather have an official announcement of some sort. It hardly costs anything to maintain a web page.
From the AmigaWorld article: "Since you weren't at the show you don't get any more details than that so next time make sure to show up."
Gee, thanks. Why do Amiga fans still seem to think keeping everything under wraps is a good thing? Not a peep from Amiga (officially) for months and people are still excited.
AGG in the video is impressive :-O
I agree with Cymric. I'd be more impressed if, at least, Amiga was doing it, but you can get AGG for any platform already. It's like all the Java apps Amiga bundled with the SDK. Hey, Java isn't available for the PC or Linux, is it?
I wanna see something Amiga has done, not standard demos that have been ported from other platforms.
bootdelay was 3-4 sec, and OS selection 20 sec
On my Win2000 system, I get a bootdelay of 10 sec, and Windows boots in 43 seconds. Of course, I'm running MySQL, Apache, and various other dev tools. If I turn all that stuff off, it boots in 18 seconds -- with Norton Antivirus. ;-)
Really, I don't care how fast it boots. An extra 5 seconds won't kill me. I care how well it runs.
I don't what Microsoft's problem is, but Apple have neglected the Finder shamefully. They're not small companies - you'd think they could get FTP right!
"Ordinary" people don't use FTP, so the big boys could care less...
...and the small boys can't afford to do it well...
...so you end up having to use 3rd party tools no matter what. Unless you *really* enjoy using command-line FTP. :-)
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lftp r0Xx0Rz! :-) If you asked me some months ago, if I would have ever used a shell based
ftp client, I would laugh... It turned out that lftp is more that good in the end. :-)
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It's all very well you jumping on board then, but don't go criticising the people who are putting the money in now, keeping it afloat and trying to make that future happen.
That would make sense if you were investing in a superior platform to what is out there right now... But as it is you are keeping afloat a system that is (in hardware terms) several generations behind, and much more expensive than currently available and supporting a software platform that suffers from a vendor lock in...
While I agree with supporting the software platform (ie OS4), I can't agree with supporting the museum exhibt that is the A1.
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Bloodline... I would'nt be so sure about the obsoletness of the A1 XE's. Right now I am online with my A1, using Ibrowse (full 68k version) with a DSL connection. Even thou Ibrouse is running in emulation web surfing is much faster and smoother than with I.E. on my 2200 mhz P4 laptop. Especially with OS4 the A1 with 800 mhz G4 compares very favorablely with the P4 laptop. It seems to me that OS4 uses the A1's hardware resources far more efficently than XP uses the laptop's hardware. The A1 may not be "state of the art" hardware but it appears to be far more than adequate for running Amiga OS.
- BCP, Indianapolis, IN USA
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BCP wrote:
Bloodline... I would'nt be so sure about the obsoletness of the A1 XE's. Right now I am online with my A1, using Ibrowse (full 68k version) with a DSL connection. Even thou Ibrouse is running in emulation web surfing is much faster and smoother than with I.E. on my 2200 mhz P4 laptop. Especially with OS4 the A1 with 800 mhz G4 compares very favorablely with the P4 laptop. It seems to me that OS4 uses the A1's hardware resources far more efficently than XP uses the laptop's hardware. The A1 may not be "state of the art" hardware but it appears to be far more than adequate for running Amiga OS.
Please define 'much faster' and 'much smoother' in terms of browsing experience. What is running in the background? What kind of hardware are you using? What kind of graphics adapter is in the laptop? Are you using adequate drivers? Mind, I am not saying that what you report is not true, but I am trying to get an idea of the circumstances under which you compare the two systems/programs.
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bloodline wrote:
That would make sense if you were investing in a superior platform to what is out there right now... But as it is you are keeping afloat a system that is (in hardware terms) several generations behind, and much more expensive than currently available and supporting a software platform that suffers from a vendor lock in...
While I agree with supporting the software platform (ie OS4), I can't agree with supporting the museum exhibt that is the A1.
Unfortunately supporting OS 4 means running it on such a machine. I'm sure Eyetech would want to sell a more powerful machine and have the numbers to sell it cheaply - I don't mind supporting the company that makes the AmigaOne even if the hardware is....um, not perfect.
As for vendor lock-in, well hopefully we'll see OS 4 on other platforms in time. It's not tied to AmigaOne and I know Hyperion would like to see it.
Your reasons not to buy one are perfectly legitimate. I respect that fully.
Chris
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@Wacoon
Gee, thanks. Why do Amiga fans still seem to think keeping everything under wraps is a good thing? Not a peep from Amiga (officially) for months and people are still excited.
You're welcome. :-P
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Your reasons not to buy one are perfectly legitimate. I respect that fully.
In retrospect, the tone of my post was harsher then I had intended. Fortunately you understood what I was saying :-)
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Right now I am online with my A1, using Ibrowse (full 68k version) with a DSL connection.
That browser doesn't have CSS support, does it? It's easy for a browser to be fast if it only supports rock-bottom standards.
Try running Voyager on the QNX demo floppy. It's only 400K and fast as hell even with a flat-mode VGA driver with no hardware acceleration. Of course, it also has no features at all. :-)
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Konqueror is blazing fast here, partially because it's always semi-loaded in the background, but even with loading pages it's very fast. The FTP was the most impressive part, it's very fast. *mucks about more in Qsynth and Ardour*
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Waccoon wrote:
That browser doesn't have CSS support, does it? It's easy for a browser to be fast if it only supports rock-bottom standards.
That definitely gives a feel for what people are comparing against each other ;-).
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bloodline wrote:
While I agree with supporting the software platform (ie OS4), I can't agree with supporting the museum exhibt that is the A1.
you Do realize that the XT (is that the name of it? I know it's got an "X" in there somewhere) is no longer being manufactured.
the uA1 (micro) board is what is now being made.
it's way cool!
and SMALL!