Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Crumb on November 15, 2004, 10:59:47 AM
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http://www.morphos.net (http://www.morphos.net)
It seems that no updates for Pegasos will be released until Genesi pays some MOS devs...
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In the worst case Pegasos users would need to pay for MOS, righ?
Not that bad?
I wish the best of luck for the MOS Team.
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KimmoK wrote:
In the worst case Pegasos users would need to pay for MOS, righ?
Ok, they have to pay, but how much?
Lets make a rough calculation.
These four persons have to receive 26586+26586+9680+9680 Euros, or 72532 Euros. Ok, now lets assume that there are 2000 Pegasos owners who would pay for MorphOS (wishful thinking of course), this makes a single copy of the MorphOS update costing 72532/2000=36.266 Euros for a tiny update (excluding the additional cost of media storage, distribution etc).
Not that bad?
36.266 Euros for a single update of unsupported OS (Genesi is now focusing on Linux) is bad in my books.
I wish the best of luck for the MOS Team.
Me too, but I'll look elsewhere, where the development is still hot.
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Me too, but I'll look elsewhere, where the development is still hot.
Like AROS?
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@drHirudo
"36.266 Euros for a tiny update"
It is not a tiny update (MO, ofcourse, after what I've seen & heard).
It could be sold as stand alone. €60-100 would be ok.
"unsupported OS (Genesi is now focusing on Linux) is bad in my books."
The money from sales would be put in development, ofcourse.
(unless Genesi is preventing the sales of MOS stand alone version)
MOS is the second best option of Amiga like OS for me.
Options are good.
"Me too, but I'll look elsewhere, where the development is still hot."
Pegasos owners that loved AmigaOS & MOS have no usable alternative options currently.
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in 99% propability, morphos is DEAD... Programmers want to get their money from their "bosses" and I highly doubt they will try and sell it directly to users... sad but true....
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Since Pandora's box has been opened, don't forget to add my $10,000 USD (for November and December 2003) to the list of people owed. I have the utmost respect for the MOS team, but from experience, they won't ever see any of that money.
I do congratulate them for taking a stand on the issue as they have. All I want to know is how many more noted community members have to get screwed before you guys stop making excuses for (and defending) these criminal companies? (in this question, I'm really speaking of both companies who have mostly unpaid employees).
In the end, to the MorphOS team, be prepared to see Neko (Matt Sealey) jumping up and down, screaming, and slandering each of you now with complete {bleep} lies, just as he did me a few months ago. (FWIW, Matt's reportedly one of the only ones left who's getting paid, so it's in his best interest to rabidly defend his handlers).
Also to the MorphOS team, thanks for all your hard work. I honestly hope that you can find a way to continue work, even if it means changing platforms (whether A1, PC, or whatever is irrelevant). Hey! Maybe you can get with bPlan and continue working on it without Bill Buck's interference, then sell it to Pegasos owners as an add-on? It would be a way to get something out of it, even if it would take a little more work.
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:-(
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That sucks. Like so many companies involved with the Amiga, it is the old story of take advantage and then shaft :-x
If the MOS team can crack on with things without Genesi, so much the better, but where is the incentive if they are all owed wages to begin with?
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but where is the incentive if they are all owed wages to begin with?
Not an easy question to answer. It would depend on each individual, but from my viewpoint, they can simply scrap all the work they've done (losing all hope of getting ANYTHING), or they can continue working on it and get at least something back, even if it doesn't ever cover ALL of the expenses.
Also from my viewpoint, Genesi is owed everything that they've paid for, and if you consider they haven't paid for anything since "July 2003" then they pretty much paid for everything up to MorphOS 1.2. Anything past that hasn't been paid for, if I read that page correctly.
Wayne
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This is bad news indeed.
I wonder if this is only part of the story though. What about the other MOS core developers who aren't listed on this new page at morphos.net? Are they paid or not supporting this action? BBRV's posts on Morphzone seem to imply that David 'zapek' Gerber and Stefan Stuntz are behind this.
So I wonder, is the MOS team split? Did they have a vote? What about Ralph and Frank? Hmmmm....
Even if this is the end of MOS, I suspect most of its users will still refuse to switch to AmigaOne/OS4, instead going to AROS, Linux, or Windows.
Hopefully people will see what happens before they decide anything....
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On Morphzone it looks like BB&RV are talking about MorphOS development continuing without the complaining developers... to the point that they posted "Where does MorphOS go without MUI? That is the big question."
Surely they should be talking to the devs about their position rather than publically talking about ditching them from the team? I'm a bit confused with that one...
Where does MorphOS go without the GUI toolkit its almost exclusively built upon? Well, thats quite a stumbling block.
*sigh* This is sad news for the whole Amiga and clone world... I hope something positive happens for all MOS users.
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@xeron
I believe it's simply a case of "showing one's true colours" on that front. As a "red" (other people's definition, not my own), I rarely ever expressed my views on Genesi - it would have invariably started another bs flamefest - but I always imagined they would drop anybody like a stone the moment they thought they could get away with it :-(
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"Where does MorphOS go without MUI? That is the big question."
In a word... Zune...
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bloodline wrote:
In a word... Zune...
Its still a big slap in the face for Stefan Stuntz... "Oh, wel can't pay you, but rather than try and come to some sort of compromise, we'll use this open source clone".
Don't forget also that MorphOS MUI has more features than the 3.9 CVS version of MUI, which itself is a lot more complete than Zune (AFAIK), so they'd either have to bring Zune up to MOS MUI level, or take out features that require the latest MUI classes.
Either way, it pushes a "1.5 without the disgruntled developers work" release further back.
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Surely they should be talking to the devs about their position rather than publically talking about ditching them from the team? I'm a bit confused with that one...
See, there's the modus operandi of Bill Buck. It's not Bill's fault because they hired people then refused to pay them for well over a year, it's the employee's fault for not working for free. I honestly believe that in his own mind, Bill Buck sees himself as a victim of all of this. He's already writing on morphzone how he's a martyr and none of this is his fault...
It is apparent by Bill's own posts on MorphZone that they have no intention (or desire) to continue MorphOS or any support of the Pegasos in the direction of the Amiga community, so IMCO he will not pay any of the developers in question for their work, because (quote bbrv:) "MorphOS is not our main priority".
The Amiga community was used and harvested for people who would help demonstrate the possibilities to other Linux companies such as Freescale. Once those people were no longer able to be used, they were abandoned, usually without several months' pay. Points of fact: myself, Christian Kemp, Dale Rahn, most of the US Web Team, the four listed on the morphos.net site, and there are probably dozens more that will surface at some point.
Still, people will continue to rabidly defend and support the continued dishonorable actions by Bill Buck, and that absolutely amazes me.
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Wayne wrote:
See, there's the modus operandi of Bill Buck. It's not Bill's fault because they hired people then refused to pay them for well over a year, it's the employee's fault for not working for free.
Certainly the only way I can interpret "What happens next will depend on the core MorphOS team and whether we want to work with certain people any more." is basically "We only want to work with people who don't complain when they don't get paid"... :-?
Edit: And again... "Ralph and Frank are still very much a part of Genesi/bplan. MorphOS development will continue. Some of the key players and components may change." If I was a MOS user, BB&RV's posts would be making me MORE worried, not less...
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Its still a big slap in the face for Stefan Stuntz... "Oh, wel can't pay you, but rather than try and come to some sort of compromise, we'll use this open source clone".
Yeah ,that sucks.
Don't forget also that MorphOS MUI has more features than the 3.9 CVS version of MUI, which itself is a lot more complete than Zune (AFAIK), so they'd either have to bring Zune up to MOS MUI level, or take out features that require the latest MUI classes.
Well bringing Zune up to the MOS MUI level would be cool!! :-D
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One thing I know is after over 10 years of problems the Amiga had, its still here. Even after Palm got BeOS, its still here. I didn`t want a Pegasos to run linux, so even if there was never another Official Morphos release would it really matter? Only a community can keep an OS alive, or maybe for updates the community should create service packs with new addtions that the OS needs. Sure everybody needs to pay thier bills, but when something like AROS comes along does it always have to be about money? What matters is the platform not if it`s Red or Blue. Is it Amiga, is it Morph? Who cares?
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Have sales of the Pegasos II been poor, or have they been selling them at a loss? Either way - why doesnt Genesi have the money to pay the developers.
It would seem stupid to dump MorphOS - after all, surely many of the customers, if not all, who purchased Pegasos II chose it because they had previously owned amigas, as opposed to really like Linux.
Whom do Genesi expect to sell the Pegasos II to now? They seem to be abandoning the amiga aspect of it all together - whilst harming the amiga community by once again disapointing the customers and the developers. I would have thought that the businesses who support (or is the exploit?) the amiga community would have learnt that lesson by now - that amigans & devs have been mistreated enough.
I feel sorry for the MorphOS developers, and hope they find new better work elsewhere, quickly.
I feel sorry for the existing owners of the Pegasos; I hope you like Linux on PPC and feel it is better performing (for the money) than Linux on x86.
Whilst I doubt it, I hope there is a silver lining. Perhaps, the new smaller form factor Amigas will sell more - perhaps the community will come together and support the one platform, rather than being divided. I hope that larger numbers behind the one platform might keep it going for longer.
However, I suspect that many people (previous pegasos owners) will feel betrayed and give up on the amiga community and switch over to x86 or Mac.
I'm not chuffed.
Samuar
PS//
Let us all openly support the developers of MorphOS in what must be a difficult time for them.
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so even if there was never another Official Morphos release would it really matter?
Well, I think it would. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought OS3.5, OS3.9 and then an A1 and OS4, I'd have stuck with OS3.1.
In the purely hypothetical future where MorphOS really did indefinately stall at 1.4, and AROS and OS4.x continue to improve and provide more and better functionality over time while keeping the Amiga "feel", would you still be so happy to be using 1.4?
Anyway, from the latest posts on Morphzone it seems that Bill is definately playing the victim here, claiming that MOS will continue without the work of the disgruntled developers, because he and Genesi will not be "held hostage". Yeah, maybe those developers should apologise for not working for free... ?!
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I dont think it would matter if a new version of MOS was released.. well.. what I mean is... release a stable version (1.5) with some new features and let it sit out in the real world. Let developers write new software for 1.5. Even though 3.9 is out for the classic..I still run 3.1. I dont want 3.5 or 3.9... 3.1 works and is stable.
-Alex
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So is there anything stopping MorphOS getting ported to Mac? I'm sure there would be people who'd pay to use it on Apple hardware. Income from an Apple port, could even mean they could continue to support existing PegasOS owners.
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I think MorphOS on older Mac hardware (older PPCs) would be a good idea - btu I suspect that most people would rather run MacOS X on G3s and above (who wouldnt want to run a gorgeous looking commerical unix operating system that supports software from large vendors?).
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Well bringing Zune up to the MOS MUI level would be cool!!
Since alot of the initial MOS was based on AROS, I'm sure any of the MOS Devs looking for a new home that won't (and can't) back stab them, would have an easy adjustment if they settled in with AROS Devs (http://www.aros.org/documentation/developers/contribute.php#joining-the-team).
Dammy
TeamAROS
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I really don't see apple sanctioning any rival OS for their hardware, no matter how outdated.
In fact they're more likely to hit anyone trying this with a lawsuit. People seem to forget that behind that happy smiling interface, theyire every bit as self-protectionist as MS.
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Isnt YellowDog Linux sanctioned?
I dont remember them getting sued - i could be wrong tho.
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Possibly. I can see that apple considered having a linux port as advantageous since it would allow their hardware to penetrate different markets where a rival OS has made significant inroads and there is no chance they could push their own OS in combination. Better to push half of the OS/Hardware combination than none of it - and the expensive half at that ;-)
What they would make of an OS like MOS is a different matter - outside of the amiga community, who knows about it?
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I'm honestly not sure that a "EULA" can exist for hardware devices. Especially if you can take a piece of hardware don't use ANYTHING about the software then write an OS to go on top of it.
It's different for things like X-boxes, PS2's, etcetera because those were generic devices and not intended to run an "OS", but to play licensed games. Hacks to those devices are generally specifically intended to run pirated games, whereas porting MorphOS to the Mac would be akin to YellowDog Linux running on a Mac. (It's a waste of a good Mac to run Yellow Dog on it, but to each his own)
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
I'm honestly not sure that a "EULA" can exist for hardware devices. Especially if you can take a piece of hardware don't use ANYTHING about the software then write an OS to go on top of it.
It's different for things like X-boxes, PS2's, etcetera because those were generic devices and not intended to run an "OS", but to play licensed games. Hacks to those devices are generally specifically intended to run pirated games, whereas porting MorphOS to the Mac would be akin to YellowDog Linux running on a Mac. (It's a waste of a good Mac to run Yellow Dog on it, but to each his own)
Wayne
But then it's a waste of a good Mac not using it to stop your papers from blowing away... :lol:
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What this seems to be is that a small group of unpaid MorphOS developers have decided to hit out at Genesi on their own. Fine, certainly their right, I'd probably do the same. However, in trying to do so, they've poked MorphOS right in the eye. They haven't hurt Genesi though, just shattered MorphOS's user confidence, smeared its reputation, and made it a bad day for everyone who supports MorphOS. Pretty unfair, actually.
MorphOS development will continue, that much is certain. MOS doesn't belong to Genesi and the Pegasos is owned by bPlan, Genesi are just a reseller. Nothing much will change.
Anyway, I'm guessing that there will be an official statement in the next few days, some kind of damage control. Certainly user confidence needs some kind of salve.
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Unfair? Unfair is not getting your freakin money!! $10k - $33k ??? I could care less of owners of either side, but developers deserve their money after the time they spent programming on their system. When talking in private didnt work, I would have done exactly the same. This isnt some cheap $88 A1200 ebay scam.. we're talking $10,000+ US$. Oh and there is another guy we ALL know that is owed money to! For shame BBRV!
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TheMagicM wrote:
Unfair? Unfair is not getting your freakin money!! $10k - $33k ??? I could care less of owners of either side, but developers deserve their money after the time they spent programming on their system. When talking in private didnt work, I would have done exactly the same. This isnt some cheap $88 A1200 ebay scam.. we're talking $10,000+ US$. Oh and there is another guy we ALL know that is owed money to! For shame BBRV!
That has nothing to do with MorphOS or the people who use it. I don't why we should suffer because of it.
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@KennyR
Giving David, Stefan, Treveur and Oliver the benefit of the doubt, I would imagine that this is a last resort to get their money after direct negotiation failed. I certainly doubt they would have suddenly come to this decision after a year of "just putting up with it".
While I agree it is unfortunate that the users are suffering through no fault of their own, if the developers concerned have tried all the other reasonable options available to them, then this move is understandable, even if it sucks.
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It has everything to do with MorphOS. You're talking about MOS DEVELOPERS who HAVE NOT been paid. What, you think they should continue working for free??? This just shows how someone can be as non-caring about workers who had put blood and sweat into someone elses dream. Hey, you can code right? (maybe not) But I can send you a "teach yourself c in 21 days" and you can continue where they REAL coders have left off.
-Alex
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TheMagicM wrote:
It has everything to do with MorphOS. You're talking about MOS DEVELOPERS who HAVE NOT been paid. What, you think they should continue working for free???
Who said anything about working for free? They certainly shouldn't work for Genesi unless it pays them, but I don't demand anyone works for free. But do you really think they're going to give up the last eight years of hard work because a couple of developers want a fight with Genesi? They were working on MOS before Genesi, they'll work on it after them.
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That has nothing to do with MorphOS or the people who use it. I don't why we should suffer because of it.
KennyR,
By the same token, are you suggesting that Amiga community members shouldn't suffer because Amiga Inc employees went (and still are) unpaid for months..?
The naivety level of you trying to defend (or at least "ok") the non-payment of employees who worked in good faith is insulting.
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Wayne wrote:
The naivety level of you trying to defend (or at least "ok") the non-payment of employees who worked in good faith is insulting.
I am NOT trying to defend the non-payment of employees. They'd be totally justified in never adding another line of code to the MorphOS code tree, and demanding their work be removed. They'd be justified if they called out Genesi in public and told everyone what kind of people they were. But are they justified in destroying other people's hard work to do it? Not all of the MorphOS developers actually ever got paid you know. There's no point in destroying the whole MorphOS project, it doesn't hurt Genesi and it does hurt people who have done no harm to anyone.
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All I have to say is:
:bigcry:
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There, there Red. In the mean time, try AROS-Max 0.3 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/katejames/Amiga/) out till v AROS-Max 0.4 is released (hopefully with tcp/ip included) sometime RSN.
Dammy
TeamAROS
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xeron wrote:
On Morphzone it looks like BB&RV are talking about MorphOS development continuing without the complaining developers... to the point that they posted "Where does MorphOS go without MUI? That is the big question."
Surely they should be talking to the devs about their position rather than publically talking about ditching them from the team? I'm a bit confused with that one...
that's their modus operandi.
they expect "loyalty" for nothing.
as soon as people realize that they are being lied to and won't get any respect or money - bbrv cut them off with cries of disloyalty!
after all, isn't it their (developers/artist/others) fault if they aren't willing to give up everything including paying rent and feeding children?
(sarcasim alert)
i've been waiting almost a year for the sh*t to hit the fan.
I guess this is it.
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The number of Genesi employees who have gotten the shaft (myself included) after a great deal of work without pay far outnumber the few remaining employees.
Bill Buck is practicing the "Wimpy philosophy of software development" in that he's making promises to "gladly pay you someday for coding today". The problem is, he never pays for work that's done for him, and now that he's openly stating that neither MorphOS nor the Amiga community have anything more to offer (since he's already sold all the Pegasos systems to the Amiga community that he ever will), he's once again moving on, leaving a trail of unpaid (and in some cases broken) and abandoned employees. It's not just Amiga people he's screwing though, remember Dale Rahn?
MorphOS may continue. I hope it does because I believe the real coders/people involved have done a great job (honestly, about as good a job as the OS4 coders, so I wish everyone would simply drop their stupid egos to work together).
However, I don't really care about any of it as long as Genesi/Bill Buck is in any way involved. His presence and the use/abuse, then abandon attitude has become the albatross of the Pegasos computer system.
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dammy wrote:
There, there Red. In the mean time, try AROS-Max 0.3 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/katejames/Amiga/) out till v AROS-Max 0.4 is released (hopefully with tcp/ip included) sometime RSN.
Dammy
TeamAROS
With Michals recent time constraints... maybe not would be a good time to recruit a new Peg AROS dev :-)
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With Michals recent time constraints... maybe not would be a good time to recruit a new Peg AROS dev
This is true, there is a free Peg1 looking for a good home for AROS porting.
Dammy
TeamAROS
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I've never looked at AROS. Cool to see a bootable cd.. I'll download the image tonight.
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I tried a version of AROS a while back for x86.
Which was nice.
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I feel sorry for the people that have not been paid, not paying for work they have done is the same as stealing it also helps to wreck the amiga community. :-?
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KennyR wrote:
TheMagicM wrote:
Unfair? Unfair is not getting your freakin money!! $10k - $33k ??? I could care less of owners of either side, but developers deserve their money after the time they spent programming on their system. When talking in private didnt work, I would have done exactly the same. This isnt some cheap $88 A1200 ebay scam.. we're talking $10,000+ US$. Oh and there is another guy we ALL know that is owed money to! For shame BBRV!
That has nothing to do with MorphOS or the people who use it. I don't why we should suffer because of it.
Fekking Hell Kenny, what happened to you having left wing beliefs?
I'd go on strike, and take my employer to court if they didn't pay me.
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I am totally not suprised :roll:. I guess any company headed by a person going by the name of Bill just sucks. Hmmmm, after the Amiga-curse, do we have the Bill-curse?
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wtf...are people deliberately trying not to see what I mean? For the last time, I DO NOT SUPPORT GENESI NOT PAYING ITS EMPLOYEES, FOR ANY REASON. Wait, better repeat that:
I DO NOT SUPPORT GENESI NOT PAYING ITS EMPLOYEES, FOR ANY REASON. There, I think that's clear.
What I am concerned about is the impact that this has on MorphOS development in general, regardless of Genesi. I am concerned because:
1) Genesi does not own MorphOS. They funded it a while, possibly because of its interest in embedded apps, possibly because it sold some Pegasos. They paid MorphOS developers to advance the platform. Then they ran out of money, or so they said.
2) MorphOS development continues without funding from Genesi, and started without funding from Genesi. Genesi are not linked to MorphOS at all, except through the Pegasos.
3) Genesi having unpaid money to some MorphOS developers has got little to do with MorphOS itself. Genesi still don't own MorphOS, whether they've paid to it or not. The decision of developers to attack Genesi in this way for not paying them negatively affects MorphOS and unfairly hurts the people who have contributed to MorphOS without being connected to Genesi, and there are many.
The issue is complex. It's not really a matter of Genesi not paying people for doing stuff, it's the fact that they misled people into thinking they'd get paid more. Genesi don't own the code these people wrote anyway, at least to my knowledge!
What kind of allegory can I use? Perhaps a developer holding the whole AROS project to ransom because he didn't get the donation he was promised for a component? Hmm, not very fitting but close enough.
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How does the Amiga world manage to attract sooooooooo many people and companies who are completely inept at running a business ?
You'd think that anyone with half a brain could work out that "If we don't get some money in x months we won't be able to pay Fred." ... though it's more likey a case of "We've got not money left ... ahh balls to it Fred will work for free for a few months yet!"
It would be interesting to see how many companies and names could be listed as either going belly up and/or shafted the Amiga userbase and developers ...
Bunch of muppets :-(
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Kenny,
Completely wrong, but a good try.. People work for money. If there is no money, it's a hobby, and as stated it doesn't operate as a business. When company hires someone to create a product, then doesn't pay, they don't get product. The developers took a job to develop product. That product has never been paid for, and there is no "blackmail" at play here. Bill didn't pay, Bill can't play.
There's obviously a lot more going on behind the scenes than what's being seen here, but the fact that Genesi continues to screw it's employees should not surprise anyone.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
Completely wrong, but a good try.. People work for money. If there is no money, it's a hobby, and as stated it doesn't operate as a business.
But as I already told you, there are MorphOS core developers who didn't work for money and do see it as a hobby. This action has certainly not been unanimous among all of them. Genesi deserves all it gets with this, it's not as if we didn't warn them, about a thousand f**king times. But this is taking someone's hard personal work - not their business - and ripping it up in front of their faces. That someone is the hobbyists, particularly Ralph Schmidt, who has worked hardest of all to see MorphOS become what it is.
If people treated like crap take on Genesi, good luck to them. But they've also made it sound like the whole development team are with them and that MorphOS is dead, which really isn't the case. I wish them the best of luck wheedling their money out of Genesi's tight grasp, but I really wish they wouldn't use MorphOS as a weapon. It's not theirs to use.
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KennyR wrote:
Wayne wrote:
Completely wrong, but a good try.. People work for money. If there is no money, it's a hobby, and as stated it doesn't operate as a business.
But as I already told you, there are MorphOS core developers who didn't work for money and do see it as a hobby. This action has certainly not been unanimous among all of them. Genesi deserves all it gets with this, it's not as if we didn't warn them, about a thousand f**king times. But this is taking someone's hard personal work - not their business - and ripping it up in front of their faces. That someone is the hobbyists, particularly Ralph Schmidt, who has worked hardest of all to see MorphOS become what it is.
If people treated like crap take on Genesi, good luck to them. But they've also made it sound like the whole development team are with them and that MorphOS is dead, which really isn't the case. I wish them the best of luck wheedling their money out of Genesi's tight grasp, but I really wish they wouldn't use MorphOS as a weapon. It's not theirs to use.
The whole of MorphOS may not be David, Stefan, Treveur and Olivers, but the code THEY wrote is. If they decide not to release their code it is their decision.
MorphOS will still carry on, albeit with some major functionality removed, but it'll still be MorphOS.
Maybe the aforementioned devs could release their code on a shareware type release scheme to keep us all happy, and they would get some remuneration for their hard work?
There is nothing stopping any of us recompiling the missing bits using AROS code. In a way similar to how BeOS users (including myself) replace bits of BeOS with Haiku stuff piecemeal.
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Kenny?
Based on these comments, I'm really, really starting to see why so many people have a problem with you. It's maybe not what you're saying, but the way you're saying it. (OK, in this instance, it is what you're saying).
No one is "using MorphOS as a weapon". People were contracted or employed to provide something. That is the only reason they were involved in the first place. They have obligations and need of money to pay their own responsibilities. When they didn't get the money that was contractually promised to them, there is no reason for them to turn over (or continue) their hard work for free.
You can't convince me that there is a larger picture here. Bill made yet another promise to people in order to get their assistance (or product) and has yet again failed to pay for it, leaving people in his wake and pretending like he's the victim here.
{edit: I'm sorry for the other programmers who may be affected by this, and I'm happy -- if it is true -- for those who are actually seeing money from their efforts but I have strong doubts of anyone aside from Matt Sealey actually being paid}
Interestingly, these guys were owed money dating from July 2003, which even predates the two months that Bill owes me. That means that when I was being officially brought on (and announced) at Amiwest 2003, the MorphOS team members (at least the periphery programmers) were already being screwed by the time I was brought on board. A little fact that no one bothered to tell me, or I never would have taken the job.
I would admire the loyalty of such employees not to have taken this action much much sooner.
Wayne
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This is one of the things that I very much dislike about this community. People think it's cool to air disputes for money on this board and it really shows unprofessionality of the people involved (employees) and management of a company to be talking about this to users of a product. It makes the product look bad, it makes the company look disparaged, and the community yet again looses faith..
I don't see folks at Apple, HP/Compaq, IBM Microsoft doing this. If this is a legal matter take it to the courts where it belongs. A job is a job, this isn't some holy quest. If you have some rumor that morphos is gonna disappear why don't you just keep it to yourself until there is some sort of official annoucement..
Dirty laundry is just that dirty laundry and whoever handles it looks soiled..
:pissed:
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Good point. This isn't about the Amiga or the Amiga community, so I'm kind of surprised it's here at all.
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so I'm kind of surprised it's here at all.
Really ? I'm not. Just a tipical event on a average day in the wonderful Amiga world..
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DonnyEMU wrote:
This is one of the things that I very much dislike about this community. People think it's cool to air disputes for money on this board and it really shows unprofessionality of the people involved (employees) and management of a company to be talking about this to users of a product.
listen, darling, if only you knew how little some people have actually said!
there are people who have lived through [color=ff0000]HELL[/color] this last year, and have said absolutely nothing.
as for these programmers: for the last several weeks people on MorphZone have asked and wondered why there is no news and updates for MOS4.1???
I believe that this simple announcement was just an answer to these people - most of whom HAVE a peg and really deserve some info.
plus, i wouldn't say that waiting a YEAR to get paid before one says anything is unreasonable.
it shows a great deal of patience. more than I would have.
Of course, I don't think talking about money in public is professional, but I understand what has happened here.
And it's alot more professional than what BBRV have done!
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plus, i wouldn't say that waiting a YEAR to get paid before one says anything is unreasonable.
Most people would have quit 1 or 2 months of no pay. Afterall, food doesn't come free and nobody else is going to pay your bills.
it shows a great deal of patience. more than I would have.
Hmm. Maybe, or maybe a bit of, how to put it, to much faith in something/one ?
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please understand something about the way BBRV operate:
they go looking ("headhunting") for people who are talented and love amiga. No one needs incentive to work on an amiga-project.
The draw into the MOS/peg project was the idea that one could work with other like-minded amiga-users. that it would be this great group-effort. an army of creative people working for toward the future.
and all this included getting paid!
well, when the various persons discovered that the people at the top are incompetant (they lie to their employees, they attack any employee that has the nerve to ask, "so, where's the money that I have ALREADY slaved away and deserve????", and they are really bad at communicating with said employees.) then they knew it's time to leave.
it's really easy to imply that these people are somehow stupid or have stars in their eyes, but if you really think about it, all it says is that there are people who are willing to work hard on a project that is worth it.
but if you have nincompops at the top, it will all go pear-shaped. no matter how hard the people in the group work.
which is why I ask amiga users to only EVER trust themselves and not bother with any more CEO's.
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It is an all too familiar story, not just within the community, but the company too:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6499
r.e. OpenBSD.
Out of interest, could Amiga.org get an official statement from Genesi and another from the MorphOS Dev team?
Samuar
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True, Morphos was in development way before Genesi. It started out alittle after AROS, about 10 years ago as an idea that grew. Genesi came along, promised money to the developers which would allow them more time to work on Morphos, not to mention new members to the dev team attracted by the money. With that money gone, the developers in it for the money are going to be pissed and rightly so. Development will probably continue, but at it's pre-Genesi pace as it returns to a pure volunteer venture. Oh, there will be some disruption in development til all of this settles out. Stuff pulled out of CVS by the disgruntled unpaid developers, parts will have to be rewritten, etc.
Continued development means no company support and marketing anymore, no dedicated hardware platform, and a few other benefits they had with Genesi. That is assuming that this all results in all present and future ties with Genesi being cut. Guess that depends on who controls Morphos development. I assume Ralph Schmitt. That would put the ball in his court. I can't see him giving up on his project, even though it's going to take a hell of a hit. I just wouldn't expect 1.5 anytime soon.
Those 4 developers, that we know of so far, are out collectively to the tune of about $100,000. That's not an OOPs. Guess that explains the face change on the Morphos.net website awhile back.
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@KennyR
Well, you say that Genesi have nothing to do with MorphOS outside of the Pegasos. I read a post on MorphZone which led me to believe the same thing, but on OS News bbrv says:
"MorphOS is still very much owned by Genesi/bplan. Ralph Schmidt is still very much a part of the Company and Ralph *is* MorphOS. You do not see him complaining. He is busy on development and not message boards."
On MorphZone the story is slightly different - some pieces are owned by Genesi while others like MUI are not. But it seems like MorphOS can't exist without Genesi, which is very sad.
I'll be interested to see what happens to this code - whether there's anything that AROS could use and whether the programmers would want that. I'll also be interested in whether OS 4 ever appears on Pegasos. Supporting 'innocent' users vs. getting involved with Genesi is a tough one to manage - you couldn't blame them for going either way.
Chris
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Unfortunate thing.. what can you do? you WANT the PPC mobo (A1 and Pegasos), you just dont like the owners. I like the way AOS is owned by Hyperion.. if you buy it, you pay them correct? Only problem is, if any company goes down, the mobo's go with them. Only real replacement is a Mac PPC solution? Running MOS or OS4. Have either sides considered porting to Mac PPC ?
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So much anger. So much unethical and downright criminal business behaviour. So many skeletons in the closet. So many financial troubles. So much back-biting. So many egos. So much sadness. So much naivety.
And all that for a computer system which has a world wide user base written with four digits. One would be forgiven the thought that we are dealing with As The World Turns.
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@TheMagicM
If MOS development really has stalled I suppose Hyperion could develop an unsupported/semi-supported OS 4 port as a gift (albeit not a free one) to Pegasos owners. But would even an unsupported AmigaOS cause people to buy Pegasos over AmigaOne?
I think Genesi said they had considered a Mac port of OS 4, but obviously it's difficult to see that happening now.
With a Mac port - Linux being an exception - you do run up against what Be Inc ran up against, which is being made to feel "unwelcome" by Apple and denied any kind of documentation. That was enough for Be, although I felt at the time they gave in too easily... Again, it's for an armchair pundit to say that.
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Though I never used MorphOS or ever owned a Pegasos board...
It does kinda suck to have to hear that they are having problems of their own. I really did like the looks of MorphOS and what it was capable of doing. I personally an a big Amiga fan all the way.
I really hope all the issues get sorted and the continuation of MorphOS occurs. Same goes for Amiga OS 4.
Heheheheeh, but until then... Commodore 64 rules! :-D
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I've suffered a similar experience (related business, too), and I certainly know how they feel.
And so I don't blame them. But they took this long??
I suppose that shows that they care about a little more than the money, they're passionate about the project, too. :)
But having said all that, I must admitt I feel sorry for BBRV/Genesi. Employees usually don't get paid like this because there is no money coming into the company. That's why getting into such an expensive a niche does this.
I don't see folks at Apple, HP/Compaq, IBM Microsoft doing this.
They have a LOT more income.
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They sound like the only people who haven't never got paid what someone owes them here. My point is a simple one, this does not belong here.. It belongs in a court house and saying things like this in a public forum can hurt your viability of such claims in court.. I didn't say they didn't have a right to be upset, it just doesn't belong here.. I am not against them. If someone owes me money I address it but I do it in the right venue. This certainly isn't the proper one..
cecilia wrote:
listen, darling, if only you knew how little some people have actually said!
there are people who have lived through [color=ff0000]HELL[/color] this last year, and have said absolutely nothing.
as for these programmers: for the last several weeks people on MorphZone have asked and wondered why there is no news and updates for MOS4.1???
I believe that this simple announcement was just an answer to these people - most of whom HAVE a peg and really deserve some info.
plus, i wouldn't say that waiting a YEAR to get paid before one says anything is unreasonable.
it shows a great deal of patience. more than I would have.
Of course, I don't think talking about money in public is professional, but I understand what has happened here.
And it's alot more professional than what BBRV have done!
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Maybe they have some vague hope of getting paid at least some money or installments. This all could be some odd form of negotiations. Try to force Genesi's hand by going to the public. Risky, could get nasty.
We really don't know much about this exact situation. Maybe they have talked to lawyers, maybe they haven't. With over a year of not being paid, something must have been going on. We just don't know the whole story, probably never will.
You're right, they should all be in court. A nice class action lawsuit of all the unpaid Genesi employees and contract employees, but lawyers cost money and when you haven't been paid tens of thousands of dollars, you probably don't have alot a spare cash. Not to mention Genesi's books are probably in the Red and I bet Buck has is net worth arranged to show as a much smaller amount than it truely is. I'm not sure how his net worth would facter in anywhere. I've never been able to figure out how all his business ventures are related and noone has been able to explain it(at least not the same way backed up with facts). It all seems kind of shady to me.
You're right, all of this is between Genesi and those with grevances against them. What should be more of a concern to us, the community, is how will this affect Morphos. Buck has already mentioned components being removed and some being changed out. Morphos 1.5 looks to being delayed long enough and modified as a result of this to be called Morphos II.
We'll just have to wait and see! Psst! Pass the popcorn.
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Instead of arguing about the rights and wrongs, perhaps the real issue is "what can we do to help?"
samuar
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@KennyR
"1) Genesi does not own MorphOS..."
http://www.genesi.lu/corporate.php
"The engineering team that originally developed the Pegasos and MorphOS are actively involved in deciding the Company's activities and future."
And:
http://www.genesi.lu/contact_info.php
"bplan (Genesi Germany)
Attention: Thomas Knäbel
Adenauerallee 10
61440 Oberursel
Germany "
And:
http://www.genesi.lu/strategy.php
"Genesi owns MorphOS and develops and modifies it internally."
And:
http://www.amiga-topcool.de/Neuigkeiten/interviews/ralphschmidt/ralphenglish/ralphenglish.html
"I'm a partner in bPlan and so MorphOS is a part of bPlan"
And:
http://amiga.emugaming.com/press/nov23rd2002.html
"Paris, France - November 23, 2002 Thendic-France SARL and bplan GmbH of Frankfurt, Germany have reached an agreement to merge and form a new company. "
And:
OS News by BBRV (15.11.2004):
"MorphOS is still very much owned by Genesi/bplan. Ralph Schmidt is still very much a part of the Company and Ralph *is* MorphOS."
I'm sorry. :-(