Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: CatHerder on November 13, 2004, 08:43:56 AM
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For the Amiga chipset? (AGA) and all it's sub chips.
Did Gateway sell it all off or did they sell the rights but retain the patents and hardware technology or what? Anyone know for certain?
I'm pretty sure, "somebody" could manufacture a 2 or 3 chip (complete system - heck the CD32 was 1/2 way there)) micro board that was an A4000 or A1200 and market it with an internal 200+ games package for about $75.00 - could split it up even further (smaller internal ram requirements) and market it similar to current Intellivision and Atari game sticks that retail for $19.00 (although the Amiga GameStick would be more of a higher-end consumer device for around $50-$100).
If you wanted to get all fancy schmancy, you could also produce a docking station that included a zorro3 slot, nic, rgb port, serial port, parallel port, etc. I think all that is really required though would be a small footprint game device with a couple USB ports and a tv out.
I'm really suprised nobody did this already. I guess the liscences (and more importantly the ic info) are spread all over the place?
"Retro Gaming" is all the rage and current a huge multimillion dollar market - who has the rights, so somebody with the brains and the money can resurrect some of this?
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Refer to Amiga Forever 6.x.
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Perhaps because although it would be a sweet lil thing for us Amigans why would we buy it and secondly who else apart from the Amiga community would be interested of old games on "old" hardware?
200+ games you say, I'm thinking rights and who to talk to and all that. A smarter way would probably be to include a way to boot of ADF's from a CD or DVD and let the users download the software them selves from the web and then include a CD with only a few realy great games.
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History of the Amiga (http://www.heartbone.com/comphist/AmigaHistory.htm)
While Gateway still owns the Amiga patents, Amino acquires the right to use Amiga patents, all existing licenses, trademarks logos, Amiga OS, Amiga International (including current operation, inventory, the Amiga International internet site and registered domain names).
Amino has changed its name to Amiga Corporation.
It looks like Amiga HW is controlled by Gateway still.
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Oh, this is interesting:
The much exalted Plug-and-Play could come to be only after Microsoft bought the Amiga AutoConfig technology patents.
:-?
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Brian wrote:
Perhaps because although it would be a sweet lil thing for us Amigans why would we buy it and secondly who else apart from the Amiga community would be interested of old games on "old" hardware?
200+ games you say, I'm thinking rights and who to talk to and all that. A smarter way would probably be to include a way to boot of ADF's from a CD or DVD and let the users download the software them selves from the web and then include a CD with only a few realy great games.
You're kidding right?
- Intellivison LIVES (http://www.intellivisionlives.com/) just shipped it's 1,000,000th unit last month. And that's not counting software versions (that's JUST the Direct-to-TV game pad alone).
- Atari TV GAMES (http://www.jakkstvgames.com/main.html) shipped it's 1,000,000th unit 10 months ago.
Retro gaming is a hot commodity right now. Current chip technology makes it possible to put an Atari 2600 and 10-20 games in a chip smaller than a nickel. An Intellivision LIVES game stick can actually fit every single Intellivision game on one chip - but smart marketing splits them into 10 and 20 packs. The cost to manufacture is pennies - plus the game companies love the new stream of royalty revenue from a previously dead product line.
I'm not talking about a new Amiga, I'm talking about a scaled down Amiga Retro Games machine. The rights to games are easy to aquire - all you need to do is sign papers and pay the money. Any company that sees that they could potentially make a few grand or more off a title that has made them $0 in the past ten years is more than happy to accept your check.
I'm positive if the technology was available (the Amiga chipset - even if it's just 1MB ECS games and chipset) to the right people it would be a slam dunk $50,000,000 sales in the first 12 months. And then just think... an "Amiga Lives" company is out there, all monied up.
But alas! There hasn't been a company with smart business sense in the Amiga technologies realm in the past 15 years (Commodore included).
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I think the Amiga is still too complex to cheaply emulate in a single chip. But, with the Sega Mega Drive PlayTV out it looks like they're getting closer (I haven't seen if there's a real 68000 and/or Z80 in there or if they've shrunk it down to a single custom chip).
But, since the C64DTV is released on 11/26 that will keep me happy for some time. There's already talk of hacking on mass storage devices, pc keyboards, etc. to make it a super C64.
Edit: I found pics of the inside of the Mega Drive PlayTV and it is in fact a single chip. The only two chips on the board are the 32Mb ROM for the games and the MD guts (assumably the 68000 + Z80 + whatever other custom chips were needed). Unfortunately, it only has 6 games.
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I'm not talking about a new Amiga, I'm talking about a scaled down Amiga Retro Games machine. The rights to games are easy to aquire - all you need to do is sign papers and pay the money. Any company that sees that they could potentially make a few grand or more off a title that has made them $0 in the past ten years is more than happy to accept your check.
It could actually work, the chips could probably be combined on a single chip these days - including the CPU. It wouldn't need cutting edge chip technology so it'd be cheap to develop as well. You could probably do it as a hybrid using the main custom chips and a better CPU to emulate the other chips and CPU.
If you didn't want to develop a chip (which is still a fairly serious investment) it could be done using a special purpose PC.
But alas! There hasn't been a company with smart business sense in the Amiga technologies realm in the past 15 years (Commodore included).
They'll never go for it, it's a sensible way for Amiga to make money and that'll never do...
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I think that's where people get mislead.
You don't "emulate" anything in these game devices. You simply miniaturize the original chips into one single smaller chip. It's not a processor pretending to be an Atari, it's the whole Atari (every simgle circuit) inside that one chip. Same goes for the MegaDrive PlayTV - it's not emulating, it's the real deal inside the one chip.
The games are contained in the 2nd chip. That's the only place there is added expense - you need a larger ROM (or NVRAM) for more games or larger games. Everyone here knows how many Amiga games you could fit on a 16MB ROM, all you need to do is make one single processor that contains an entire A500.
intel chips are currently being produced at .09 microns (unless you count the 386 and 486 chips they still make, those are still 0.19 microns). The Amiga 500, for example, used Motorolla 68000's which were 1.5 microns, the Fatter Agnus was 1.4 microns. There's the physical space to take the exact designs of every single Amiga custom chip and supporting chip, and slap them into a single 0.10 micron chip (it would end up being smaller than 1 inch by 1 inch). (The 68000 would fit in a chip 1/1500th the size).
It's apparent that the 68000 already exists in miniature form (MD PlayTV), so the 68000 would be considered a tool-set already at whatever chip manufacturer makes the PlayTV chip. How hard could it be to add the other chips in there with a new chip seeing as how the 68000 is already in a toolset?
You wouldn't need the expandability, you wouldn't need the zorro slot, you wouldn't need all the ports, etc for the first cheap version.
I seriously think it's possible if the original chip plans exist. I also think it wouldn't take too much money to pull off ("only" a million or so to get it ready for production - that's peanuts when you'd sell over a million of the things at $30-$50 each). I think the magic price-point is $29.95 though (anyone will spend up to thrity bucks on a kid's gift - but $49.95 makes you actually evaluate what it is you are buying). Maybe it would cost a bit too much to deliver an amiga game TV pad right now, maybe that's a year or two off still.
It's a fantastic idea though.
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itix wrote:
Oh, this is interesting:
The much exalted Plug-and-Play could come to be only after Microsoft bought the Amiga AutoConfig technology patents.
:-?
I have trouble believing this. I don't think this is a very accurate reconstruction of Amiga history.
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It's actually might not be far from the truth. There were a few things that when taken to task, Microsoft doled out the cash rather than fight in court while having their OS sales halted. Same sort of thing with "flickering pointer technology" (that's probably not the exact wording) that probably played a small part in Commodore's demise.
Back in the early 90's a very smart lawyer in the US decided to research what computer technologies were commonplace but not patented. He arrived at "flickering pointer technology". The end result was IBM, Microsoft, Apple, PB, etc all grumbled and paid the license fee so people could have "flickering pointer technology" (ie. a mouse pointer) on their computers and the companies could continue to sell product uninterrupted. I recall only Atari and Commodore took the guy to court as they didn't have the $1 million fee (or whatever rediculous amount it was), and at the same time they also didnt have the money to pay for a sustained legal battle - right around this time C= filed for chapter 11.
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itix wrote:
Oh, this is interesting:
The much exalted Plug-and-Play could come to be only after Microsoft bought the Amiga AutoConfig technology patents.
:-?
Actually the patents to AutoMount expired before MicroSoft introduced Plug-and-Play. Trying to re-patent something that was already patented is unenforcable. That's why MicroSoft's plug-and-play patent is vulnerable to being overturned as it is preceeded by prior art.
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@ SamuraiCrow
Yes, that sounds more accurate. I think that Microsoft, strangely, had almost nothing to do with the Amiga. Buying a patent off of Commodore seems impossible.
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adolescent wrote:
I think the Amiga is still too complex to cheaply emulate in a single chip. But, with the Sega Mega Drive PlayTV out it looks like they're getting closer (I haven't seen if there's a real 68000 and/or Z80 in there or if they've shrunk it down to a single custom chip).
Nah, The XScale CPU can run UAE without much trouble.
The Amiga hardware is totally out of date, the technology can't even be FAB'ed any more, and it would cost a fortune to rework it for modern technology. The problem with Amiga custom chip tech is that you can't simply miniturise it and put it all on one chip, the chip designs simply won't work anymore.
Your cheapest option is to get one of the 500Mhz ARM chips (XScale) and run an emulation on it.
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the technology can't even be FAB'ed any more
Any modern fab should easily be able to manufacture the Amiga chipset, they would need modified for the different silicon process but that's nothing spectacular.
The problem with Amiga custom chip tech is that you can't simply miniturise it and put it all on one chip, the chip designs simply won't work anymore.
You wouldn't "just shrink" them (doesn't work over more than a few generations), they would need to be re-synthesized but they are simple chips by todays standards so that'd hardly be a problem.
The most difficult bit is probably getting the original CAD models and finding something which can handle them today.
If the gate level designs still exist in a CAD package there's plenty of companies who can produce a semi-custom "Amiga on a chip" for the right price (with optional 24bit Gfx and 16 bit sound).
I actually think it's a good business proposition.
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minator wrote:
the technology can't even be FAB'ed any more
Any modern fab should easily be able to manufacture the Amiga chipset, they would need modified for the different silicon process but that's nothing spectacular.
The problem with Amiga custom chip tech is that you can't simply miniturise it and put it all on one chip, the chip designs simply won't work anymore.
You wouldn't "just shrink" them (doesn't work over more than a few generations), they would need to be re-synthesized but they are simple chips by todays standards so that'd hardly be a problem.
The most difficult bit is probably getting the original CAD models and finding something which can handle them today.
If the gate level designs still exist in a CAD package there's plenty of companies who can produce a semi-custom "Amiga on a chip" for the right price (with optional 24bit Gfx and 16 bit sound).
I actually think it's a good business proposition.
I recall that the actual chips designs were lost during the Commodore break up... only the patents still exist.
I don't think it would be worth it to rehash the old tech anymore anyway. Too expensive just to do what Emulation would give you.
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Collect some money and buy rights for Amiga HW from Gateway. Easy peacy ;-)
But one problem still exists. You would need Kickstart ROMs too. Not that easy I think.
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itix wrote:
Collect some money and buy rights for Amiga HW from Gateway. Easy peacy ;-)
But one problem still exists. You would need Kickstart ROMs too. Not that easy I think.
what are you talking about?
Just compile AROS for the 68k :-D
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@itix
The much exalted Plug-and-Play could come to be only after Microsoft bought the Amiga AutoConfig technology patents.
I'm going out on a limb here and saying that that's false.
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I recall that the actual chips designs were lost during the Commodore break up...
I think Haynie said that someone didn't pay the storage fees to the cooling box thing that the design tapes were stored in. Is was apparently pretty cheap to keep them stored, just whoever it was that was in charge of that sort of thing stopped doing it. I don't know, maybe some weird computer stuff collector has them hanging on a wall like some kind of weird art he bought at an auction.
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weirdami wrote:
I recall that the actual chips designs were lost during the Commodore break up...
I think Haynie said that someone didn't pay the storage fees to the cooling box thing that the design tapes were stored in. Is was apparently pretty cheap to keep them stored, just whoever it was that was in charge of that sort of thing stopped doing it. I don't know, maybe some weird computer stuff collector has them hanging on a wall like some kind of weird art he bought at an auction.
I can't believe this would be the case for the CD32 chipset though. Perhaps the OCS and ECS info is lost, but everything was squashed into LISA and ALICE, and VLSI probably has the AKIKO and LISA filed away somewhere in their old toolset. I'm not sure who made the ALICE chip, but surely VLSI would still be able to produce the other two chips, or at least have copies of the design.
An Amiga "Retro Gamer" based on the CD32 motherboard would be great - the A2200 was just that...
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Just build a boXer. Dave hayne believed that it wou7ld have been easy to put the old amiga tech into newchips. We see where his project ended up...
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The BoXer was a computer, with PCI slots, usb, etc. I'm talking stand-alone retro gaming, not a new computer. The one thing the boXer showed was that you could indeed shove the Amiga chipset into one small chip...
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bloodline wrote:
what are you talking about?
Just compile AROS for the 68k :-D
Haha, it's been a while! :-D
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Perhaps the OCS and ECS info is lost, but everything was squashed into LISA and ALICE, and VLSI probably has the AKIKO and LISA filed away somewhere in their old toolset.
HP manufactured bunch of Lisas in 90s. Cant remember why and when but I recall it was when Amiga Technologies and ESCOM was around...?
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Dudes, I'm pretty sure I saw a Megadrive TV all in one console. Wasn't the Megadrive 68k like the A500s? It was a tiny thing that looked like the original Megadrive but fit in the palm of my hand. It was pretty cool. The games I played were definetely 16-bit era, so I know I haven't mixed this up. I've done a google and can't find it.
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Yes there was a portable Megadrive with built-in LCD screen called the Nomad
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There actually is a Genesis 3(Megadrive for the guys from Europe) that we still have for sale here that I have seen at KB Toys in the mall. It is a very tiny little machine and plays the original Genesis carts but doesn't support the SegaCD (aka MegaCD) or 32x expansions if I remember right. It is similar in shape to the Genesis 2. Check it out here: http://www.vidgame.net/SEGA/GEN3.html
Then there was also the Nomad, but it was horrible because of the battery life just like the GameGear. Sega jumped the gun on technology too often and it has bit them hard...hmmm sounds kinda familiar.
As far as the drawing power a tiny all in one Amiga would have , I would have to say it would be pretty small. Lots and lots of people remember the Atari and Intelivision systems because they were literally the first consoles you could buy to play games on at home. Even if you didn't own one you knew somebody who did...at least that is how it was with my family and friends when I was very young. I don't know that the nostalgia would be there for an Amiga the same way. (Or the C64 for that matter) I am sure all of the Amiga's custom chips could be fit into a single chip along with a 68k, but really there is a lot more to it than just getting the designs, reworking them to fit in one chip, and producing the thing with a couple games in a ROM. Maybe most importantly, every all-in-one system mentioned before is a cartridge based system where all of the games were meant to be played out of a static memory. Our Amiga's had no such tech in them and thus you would have to rework the software to behave in a ROM not to mention make the new Amiga-chip think it was talking to a floppy when it was really accessing the ROM. A little more than just telling the CPU to start program execution from a different address in the ROM like what I would imagine is done with the Atari or Intellivision systems. But who knows.
At any rate, though I am sure many of us on here would buy one for $20 that I see the similar systems in the stores selling for, I don't think a lot of others would because unless you had owned an amiga and a particular game you used to love was on the new all-in-one, what would be the point? Everybody knows Pac Man, Pong, and Asteroids...not too many are going to know Amiga games because they didn't see them in arcades of the 80's.
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No, I saw one even smaller than that with the games built in. I wish I could find it on the web. I think I saw it at a Toys'R'Us in the US.
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As far as the drawing power a tiny all in one Amiga would have , I would have to say it would be pretty small.
... I don't know that the nostalgia would be there for an Amiga the same way. (Or the C64 for that matter)
You have to be kidding. :-o
A C64 RetroGamer would sell literally millions and millions (you know how many C64's Commodre sold right? :) The C64 has one large issue -- TULIP: they have wacky plans of producing a pile of actual C64s for sale in 3rd world countries in Africa etc... (wacky, wacky, wacky! These guys shoulda been in the Amiga history books, they'd fit right in...) But I still think TULIP would lisence C64 RetroGamers because the market potential is huge.
[color=ff0000]C64 Units sold: 22,000,000[/color] (some sources say 17,000,000)
[color=0000ff]Intellivision units sold: 3,100.000[/color]
[color=008000]Atari units sold: 3,000,000 [/color]
That's 7 times as many as either of the other game systems we're talking about, and over 3 times as many combined! The C64 RetroGamer would sell like doughnuts at a police convention. And if there is nobody already working on one, I'd be flat out amazed. TULIP has the tech, TULIP is trying to produce a new cost reduced version, and I'm sure they'd love the cash flow...
And an Amiga RetroGamer would sell millions as well.
Amiga sales by 1993: 4,850,000
The Amiga games are just that good and STILL look that good on a TV. I was goofing around with some CD32 games (original CDs I should add) on the ol XBox tonight (Lil' Divil and Pinball Fantasies -- both of which play right from the CD) and they look spectacular and play just as great as they always did. If the technology (the chipset etc) is available out there, I sure want to find out who to talk to. I already know I can get the angel funding, it's just a matter of getting the chipsets and rights to reproduce the tech for game units.
These little suckers on demo in Wal*Marts across the world would sell millions. And that's not even taking into account any of the other large chains! (of course it would have to wait until next year... but they'd still sell as many, and the cost to produce would be lower and the chips would be even smaller so any way you look at it, it's a win win).
This is just too good of an idea.
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CatHerder wrote:
The BoXer was a computer, with PCI slots, usb, etc. I'm talking stand-alone retro gaming, not a new computer. The one thing the boXer showed was that you could indeed shove the Amiga chipset into one small chip...
No, the Boxer was Chipset emulation on an FPGA, it did not use the original design, but was a new chip to the same specifications, which is a much better idea and a lot cheaper than trying to rework old chip designs.
Also, I think no one would buy it or a C64 "game unit". but if you used an XScale with software emulation, that could emulate an Amiga, an Atari, a C64 etc... in a single box... that would sell to the retro gamer. As mentioned, I have no idea how you would emulate the functionality of the floppy based games in a user friendly way.
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I like the ideas mentioned here. A good productive discussion.
The idea of cheaply reproducing a classic amiga, using less chips and making it widely available (and hopefully:) cheap does appeal.
After all, there is a project which has created a C64 on an ATX board, i believe called the CommodoreOne.
http://www.go64.de/english/frames/commodoreone.html
If it can work for the C64, then surely - with our community base and perhaps some effort, a 68K ATX amiga could be brought to us.
It would have to be a cheap alternative to the PPC, which would be the difficult part - but I suspect it would be worth it. If the price is right, I see no reason why existing A1 owners would not want to own both.
Perhaps a good way to start such a project would be to target computer science students at universities - cheap labour looking to make a name for themselves in this world. We shouldn't forget such students - the SPARC processor, for example, was created by two students.
Samuar
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You know, I saw an ad on TV last night for one of those "plug it right into the TV" joysticks, with a bunch of games included. I've seen this for Atari, Namco, and others, but this one had games from a C64. Which is groovy.
So how much harder is it to do up an Amiga version? Can't be that difficult.
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bloodline wrote:
No, the Boxer was Chipset emulation on an FPGA, it did not use the original design, but was a new chip to the same specifications, which is a much better idea and a lot cheaper than trying to rework old chip designs.
Ok then, there is nothing to be gained from the boXer for this idea. "Cheaper" is not spending $4 million + trying to emulate the original chipset (boxer history) and build a new PC out of it. Cheaper is using the exact old chipset design and miniaturizing it into a single chip for a game device.
Also, I think no one would buy it or a C64 "game unit". but if you used an XScale with software emulation, that could emulate an Amiga, an Atari, a C64 etc... in a single box... that would sell to the retro gamer. As mentioned, I have no idea how you would emulate the functionality of the floppy based games in a user friendly way.
I think you're totally wrong.
I couldn't care less about making a new Amiga computer that 10,000-15,000 people want. That's bad business sense. I am interested in a retro gamer device that retails for around $50 and would be scooped up by millions of consumers for what it is -- a game device that plugs into their TV or VCR and lets them play 10 games. Easy, cheap, 100% accessible to everyone. It would be a pure winner.
The magic line is $49.95 - the "impulse shopper" price is $19.95 with some success at $24.95. But, twenty bucks or less = hundreds of thousands of extra units sold to people who couldn't care less what the tech was behind it -- they just see a $20 game unit they can shove in the Christmas stocking or in a birthday wrapper for little Johnny or Suzie.
If there was an advanced version that had cartridges it would be more in demand for people who were moderately aware of the history or technology (10 Amiga games per cartridge - the cartridge slot would add to the expense of production, but it would also allow for various other neat little expansions). But, it all comes down to what your cost-of-production would be. If you can bang out the self-contained versions for $10 or less a pop, and retail them at $24.95 it would be a roaring success. The cartridge version would be acceptible if the cartridges cost $9.95 and the game unit itself was around $49.95 -- cheap is the key - nobody cares about the Amiga technology outside the diehard community. People just want something fun, for a low price.
An Amiga RetroGamer would be precicely that. It has everything the Atari and Intellivision GamerTV's have but the games are better, the graphics are better, and the sound is better.
I am not interested in the Amiga community that currently trades ADFs of all the software, or the community that wants a PowerPC version of an Amiga so they can put new video cards and whatnots - there is no money in either of those. I want Joe Public to buy a game device! A "toy"! :-)
If it can be done - then there will be a new Amiga RetroGamer company that has a lot of cash... that company could then perhaps start building new Amiga computers. But, I highly doubt I could convince anyone that there is a business model that is profitable doing such a thing. (Sad but true.)
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Well here we go. And I am not suprised.
Tulip Computers launches COMMODORE 64 MINI GAME CONSOLE (http://www.commodoreworld.com/Site/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=4&tabid=702&bix=4&bid=5&itemIDS=7&ModID=2)
Supercycle, Impossible Mission, Kickoff, California Games, Cyberdine Warrior, Summer Games, Cybernoid, Winter Games, Pitstop II, Exolon, Paradroid, Netherworld, Uridium, Chips Challenge, Speedball 2, Zynaps, etc etc are the games currently available.
I bet they sell millions.
Here's the game device (http://www.toylobster.com/toylobsterweb/products_c64.htm)
This is a better link to the C64 Retro Game Device (http://www.commodoreworld.com/Site/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=5&tabid=45&itemid=2&sitemid=9&prod=17&cat=1)
Now... who has the Amiga technology?! :-)
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That has been out for a while --
Interesting that is is a 64, just minaturized:
http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=nl&lr=&c2coff=1&frame=right&th=dfdb71878523cff8&seekm=10o4tlhnr4dqq57%40corp.supernews.com#link1
In the US -- it is sold by Mamoth Toys in NY --
Seems it was launched on QVC for about $25
Interesting point for both sides of the arguement.
dB
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dbalaski wrote:
That has been out for a while --
Interesting that is is a 64, just miniturised:
http://www.jammingsignal.com/c64/aic/64dtv/page1.htm
That's the whole point. :-)
Minaturize - package - sell. Anyone that says it won't be prifitable is not in tune with reality. Same goes with the Amiga - I'm sure it will cost more to minaturize it, but think of the spin-off products that could result.
There could be "Embedded Amiga on a PCI card" for the emulator people. There could be "The Amiga 6000 including 100% compatible A1200 on chip for backwards compatibility with older software" or there could be the option of having a motherboard wtih both the A1200 on-chip and the A500 on-chip... The possibilites are endless.
But the money to do this isn't in making a new Amiga computer, it's in making an Amiga retro-gamer and using the technology (and profits) from that to make other products (including a possible new Amiga with backwards compatability).
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megadrive mentioned is probably this http://www.firebox.com/index.html?dir=firebox&action=product&pid=864
and the boxer might have worked if mick tinker actually decided on a design and built it instead of endlessly redesigning it and announcing the great new features until 8 years had passed without actually releasing a thing then whinging that the amiga market hadn't paid him a wage for years.... :pissed:
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@CatHerder
Minaturize - package - sell. Anyone that says it won't be prifitable is not in tune with reality. Same goes with the Amiga - I'm sure it will cost more to minaturize it, but think of the spin-off products that could result.
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.
P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.
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Amiga handhelds, nice :)
One thing though, the control(lers) for the device... are you thinking about Gameboy-style D-Pads and buttons? Problem arises with games that use the keyboard (Function keys for instance), how would you embed that in such a device?
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Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines. If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.
samuar
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Samuar wrote:
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines.
Remember that these chips, which were revolutionary in 1986... are now far outperformed by a chip that costs $5.
If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.
But even if we did have the schematics the cost to rework them for modern silicon and then miniturise them (which is a massive task in itself), would make the whole project prohibitivly expensive, and all you would end up with is a chip that is out performed by any gfx/sound chip you could buy off the shelf.
BTW I do have an Amiga Handheld... my iPaq 4150 running UAE :-)
-Edit-
(http://www.ahsodit.com/iPaqWB1.jpg)
(http://www.ahsodit.com/iPaqWB2.jpg)
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bloodline wrote:
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.
P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.
Which comments, feel free to list them - I've been thinking out loud in this thread...
I think you should find out how this antiquated technology works instead of living in a fantasy world. There's nothing earth shattering in an Amiga (not today, sorry). It was "wow amazing" in 1985-1990 but soon as 91 hit, the Amiga was no longer "wow amazing".
All I've seen since 1995 is a bunch of attempts at building PC's and Mac clones that run Amiga emulators. A few faster accelerators here, a few cards allowing you to use PC parts there, etc... No new technology, just a bunch of altering existing PC tech to work with 12 year old Amiga hardware.
You can bash on people all you want Bloodline, including me - fact remains you're wrong about this idea. People are making millions off of realistic products (retro game units), nobody in their right mind is going to invest millions on a computer that is targeted at 10,000 users (that's being generous) world-wide. But smart people will certainly invest a couple million to get a retro gamer out the door that millions of consumers (who couldn't care less what an Amiga is) will scoop up like hotcakes -- all for the games.
But keep up the good trolling.
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Samuar wrote:
Miniturization sounds like a great idea - i'm all for it.
But do we have a problem related to the custom amiga chips (for graphics and sound etc) - i.e. the very thing that made Amigas much better than any other 68K based machines.
I seriously doubt it. If a couple garage coders can write software that runs on an x86 windows box, and that software can emulate all the custom chips, timings, etc., how hard could it be - seriously - for a multimillion dollar firm to create a chip that does the same?
If we dont have the schematics, or if we do and we dont have the rights to use them, then surely we are stuck.
samuar
Yes, but if they exist, whomever owns them will be more than interested in making money lisencing them. As it stands, no Amiga company thats owned the technology since 1991 has turned a profit. I'm sure Gateway or whomever would love to recoup their lost money.
Even if it turns out that the Amiga RetroGamer has to use an Intel/AMD/etc processor and run an emulated Amiga it would still sell just as well. It would be a lot more enticing technology-wise if it could be a miniaturized Amiga though, the expansion capabilities once it was turning a heavy profit from the game consumer would eventually lead to some cool new swag.
It would also be cheaper to miniaturize the chipset than to try and use a more current processor (lets say P400) which would entail shriking more current tech, and lisencing that tech from a monied up company (AMD or intel) would make it all cost even more. To emulate the Amiga and it's OS requires a decent CPU. That's too costly for manufacturing a game device.
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CatHerder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
I think you should actually find out how the amiga works (and no, it's nothing like a C64). Then find out about the technology involved, Minaturising the Amiga Chipset would cost millions! It would be far cheaper to build an emulation on an existing platform. And without any decent market research I can't see where you draw your "profitable" line from.
P.S. you have contradictred yourself ina few comments.
Which comments, feel free to list them - I've been thinking out loud in this thread...
I think you should find out how this antiquated technology works instead of living in a fantasy world. There's nothing earth shattering in an Amiga (not today, sorry). It was "wow amazing" in 1985-1990 but soon as 91 hit, the Amiga was no longer "wow amazing".
All I've seen since 1995 is a bunch of attempts at building PC's and Mac clones that run Amiga emulators. A few faster accelerators here, a few cards allowing you to use PC parts there, etc... No new technology, just a bunch of altering existing PC tech to work with 12 year old Amiga hardware.
You can bash on people all you want Bloodline, including me - fact remains you're wrong about this idea. People are making millions off of realistic products (retro game units), nobody in their right mind is going to invest millions on a computer that is targeted at 10,000 users (that's being generous) world-wide. But smart people will certainly invest a couple million to get a retro gamer out the door that millions of consumers (who couldn't care less what an Amiga is) will scoop up like hotcakes -- all for the games.
But keep up the good trolling.
Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.
If you see my £250 iPaq running a Beta version of UAE you will see where I'm coming from.
Another problem that crops up is the legal rights to the games... Atari, Nintendo etc, not only made the hardware... they also published the games... this means they can resell them without any legal issues... Commodore published very few Amiga/C64 games, which makes these things much more messy.
I'm not trolling.
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@bloodline
Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.
I'm not trolling.
No, he's not trolling, he just know what he's talking about. It is a nice idea, but there are huge technical obsticles preventing it. It's been explained many times by [CBM engineer] Dave Haynie, so I've just googled to quote him and it actually brought back a post I made on this very subject at the beginning of the year. You can read it here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2983&forum=14&start=20#37374).
Thanks,
Martyn.
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Cheers Martyn, I thought I was going mad :crazy: :-D
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So, whats the solution?
I am guessing the question is "how do we make a very cheap amiga 'clone'(?) that can be purchased on masse and run old games on TVs etc?"
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Samuar wrote:
So, whats the solution?
I am guessing the question is "how do we make a very cheap amiga 'clone'(?) that can be purchased on masse and run old games on TVs etc?"
If you want to do it, then the best idea is probably to build the whole thing (CPU and all) in an FPGA, with a simple RF tuner + some DACs + a rom (witha kickstart + a simple workbench and ADF loader). Then have a CF or SD slot for ADFs.
Wouldn't be cheap though.
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i presume, that attempting this with an older, less complicated amiga would be easier than with a new model. I.e, a 500 rather than a 1200?
Or is the internal difference between the two only speed?
Samuar
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Samuar wrote:
i presume, that attempting this with an older, less complicated amiga would be easier than with a new model. I.e, a 500 rather than a 1200?
Or is the internal difference between the two only speed?
Samuar
It wouldn't make much difference. THe A1200 has a more advacned Chipset, but that just extends the capibilites of the old chipset rather than adds any new features.
The A1200's CPU is a crippled 68020 which isn't much better than a 68000...
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At the risk of being called a heretic.
I think one good point brought up in the quotes from Dave Haynie is simple -- assimulate & evolution.
Whoever owns the rights -- should consider this as a possibly to move the platform forward.
dB
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It would be a very Petro thing to do :-P
The problem is that the trademark is owned by a play hide an seek coporate assets outfit.
And the patents and hardwaredesign is owned by Gateway and the games by their respective companies.
BTW didn´t the old Amiga Int under Petro combine lisa, paula and denise into one single chip way back when?
Around the time there was talks about Coldfire.
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Fogive me not knowing the Petro reference (remember, I am recently rediscovering my roots so to speak ) .
It just seems to me that sitting on the Patents and designs is foolish -- every day it is becoming a more depreciated captial asset.
but I am digressing ;)
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dbalaski wrote:
Fogive me not knowing the Petro reference (remember, I am recently rediscovering my roots so to speak ) .
It just seems to me that sitting on the Patents and designs is foolish -- every day it is becoming a more depreciated captial asset.
but I am digressing ;)
The Patents have expired and the designs are valueless :-(
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@Catherder
I see your point, but you are talking to a lot of techies here and not business people. The buzz word is Mass Marketing. It's like pop music, you only need one hit CD and you can retire. Coming up with a product that aunt Mary will buy is the way to go.
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If you want to do it, then the best idea is probably to build the whole thing (CPU and all) in an FPGA, with a simple RF tuner + some DACs + a rom (witha kickstart + a simple workbench and ADF loader). Then have a CF or SD slot for ADFs.
FPGA is one way but there are also psudo-custom chips which are existing systems with a customisable block.
Another way might be to use one of the new multicore embedded CPUs (20+ cores per chip), it takes a lot of power to do a good emulation of the chip set so you could break up UAE and run bits of it on each core, it may then be fast enough to run it in software.
Multi-core may not work that well though and requires additional components anyway - and has GPL issues...
Wouldn't be cheap though.
If you wanted to produce a system like this it's going to be expensive anyway, you can't make them cheap to sell unless you produce them in fairly serious volumes and we're talking $2 million + for a 100K unit production run (assuming it's $20 to produce).
Even if you spent $2 millon on chip development that's another $20 per unit but that assumes this would be the only production run.
I think the best way wold be to take an existing System on Chip and modify it to include the Amiga chip set (or parts thereof) as a module, this'll produce modern device with Amiga compatibility.
It's no small undertaking and definately not cheap but there's no reason that it can't be done.
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Thellenbow wrote:
@Catherder
I see your point, but you are talking to a lot of techies here and not business people. The buzz word is Mass Marketing. It's like pop music, you only need one hit CD and you can retire. Coming up with a product that aunt Mary will buy is the way to go.
Exactly...
I'm saying one thing, and most of the people here are thinking "new Amiga". I'm not talking about a new Amiga. I'm talking about an Amiga RetroGamer or TVGamer. I already know every single game can be licenced without an issue (excluding the ones that have no known IP holder). There is not a game company in the world that would not lisence their old stuff. It's smart business sense.
I couldn't care less what software Commodore or Amiga International owned, it makes no difference. I couldn't care less about productivity software and applications, they don't even factor in to it.
I couldn't care less how an OLD Amiga chip was manufactured - I don't want to make one. I care how it was designed - and if this means simply emulating, or reverse-engineering each chip to come up with a new single chip encompassing the entire Amiga (lets just stick with an A500 for now) so be it. It's not a hard thing to do - this is 18 year old technology we're talking about. Any off-the-shelf integrated RF modulator would work with this, a cost of production of $0.72 per unit, and there's already 3 to pick from that are used in other retro devices.
I couldn't care less about expansions, networking, hard drives, floppy drives, or anything remotely related to a real computer - I want to make hand-held stand-alone game units that contain 10 games. (Or one that has a propritary cartridge slot that allows you to plug in various game sets).
And yes, I do know a bit about manufacturing computer products and I have worked with a few overseas firms getting designs fabricated. (I was head of IT/IS at AST Computers). I also have a pretty solid Amiga background -- I do know what I'm talking about.
I also know that with just liscence agreements from EA alone I could pump out 2 different Amiga TVGamers that had 10 quality games on each one -- I also know that one agreement would get the rights to all Hewson and Epyx titles, and one agreement with Atari would get another eleven game companys IP. I'm not just talking out my arse...
The only thing holding this back is: who owns the IP rights to the Amiga chipsets. That's all I want to know. :-)
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minator wrote:
If you wanted to produce a system like this it's going to be expensive anyway, you can't make them cheap to sell unless you produce them in fairly serious volumes and we're talking $2 million + for a 100K unit production run (assuming it's $20 to produce).
Even if you spent $2 millon on chip development that's another $20 per unit but that assumes this would be the only production run.
I think the best way wold be to take an existing System on Chip and modify it to include the Amiga chip set (or parts thereof) as a module, this'll produce modern device with Amiga compatibility.
It's no small undertaking and definately not cheap but there's no reason that it can't be done.
I think your numbers are reasonable, but perhaps a little bit high. Need to think "consumer electronic toy" and not "consumer electronic device" -- I'm pretty sure the cost of production for an Amiga GameTV device would be more along the lines of $9.00/ea for 100,000 units, with a cost of development of $1 to $2 million. I beleive you'd recoup your original IP costs in round one of distribution, and would move into a profit phase with the second lot of units (this would probably be a 90 day window), after that it's smooth sailing and money money money.
You need to realise that Wal*Mart alone would distribute 100,000 units to consumers all by itself. That's only one retail channel, with a single delivery point (they do all distribution internally from a centralized warehouse [or 2] on every continent). With careful delivery planning and smart manufacturing cycles this is a no-brainer.
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bloodline wrote:
Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.
Why would you want to fabricate chips to old specs? That's just a bad idea. You want the IP from those chips to fabricate new chips using current design parameters. It's not a difficult thing to do. Why would you want to do any of what you mention above is beyond me.
Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.
I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.
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I can see both sides of the argument, but I think this idea could work. But I would be inclined to use exsitin cheap hardare and emulate, but if u can raise the $2 million devolpment costs to make a single chip amiga, go for it.
It could have uses futher afield,in the future, amiga on pci card anyone, or even amiga on pcmcia
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CatHerder wrote:
Thellenbow wrote:
@Catherder
I see your point, but you are talking to a lot of techies here and not business people. The buzz word is Mass Marketing. It's like pop music, you only need one hit CD and you can retire. Coming up with a product that aunt Mary will buy is the way to go.
Exactly...
I'm saying one thing, and most of the people here are thinking "new Amiga". I'm not talking about a new Amiga. I'm talking about an Amiga RetroGamer or TVGamer. I already know every single game can be licenced without an issue (excluding the ones that have no known IP holder). There is not a game company in the world that would not lisence their old stuff. It's smart business sense.
And what do you project they would ask as a licence fee? a one off payment of $100000 or 3% of sales or 10%? whatever it's not going to be cheap.
I couldn't care less what software Commodore or Amiga International owned, it makes no difference. I couldn't care less about productivity software and applications, they don't even factor in to it.
No one has said anything about productivity software and applications...!
I couldn't care less how an OLD Amiga chip was manufactured - I don't want to make one. I care how it was designed - and if this means simply emulating, or reverse-engineering each chip to come up with a new single chip encompassing the entire Amiga (lets just stick with an A500 for now) so be it. It's not a hard thing to do - this is 18 year old technology we're talking about. Any off-the-shelf integrated RF modulator would work with this, a cost of production of $0.72 per unit, and there's already 3 to pick from that are used in other retro devices.
First you say you don't care how the new machine is made... then at the bottom you ask who own the IP (Gateway)... but unless you are using the actual Chipset design (which we have already established is useless) you don't need to know who own the IP. You show no understanding here.
Why do you keep going on about the age of the technology? It's 18year old technology, but it was totally custom, it's age does not make it easier to recreate, but harder. Unless you go the Emulation route in which case the IP holder does not need to be involved.
72 cents for what?
I couldn't care less about expansions, networking, hard drives, floppy drives, or anything remotely related to a real computer - I want to make hand-held stand-alone game units that contain 10 games. (Or one that has a propritary cartridge slot that allows you to plug in various game sets).
Hmmm, 10 games... at an average of 2.5 disks per game that's about 25meg + another 2meg for the OS + another 2meg for your emulation software + 1 meg for your firmware... so you'll need a 32meg ROM (maybe more depending on which games you want to use)... which isn't going to be cheap.
The Amiga never used cartridges, so you are totally on your own... how do you get these catridges to boot? How much do the cartridges cost to manufacture? How do you deal with multiple disks on one cartridge?
and what about cool, era defining games like "Monkey Island 2" - a game the always brings up the topic of Amiga... every one I know played MI2 on an A500... that has 12 disks alone! I wouldn't buy a box just to play MI2... it would have to have other stuff as well.
And yes, I do know a bit about manufacturing computer products and I have worked with a few overseas firms getting designs fabricated. (I was head of IT/IS at AST Computers). I also have a pretty solid Amiga background -- I do know what I'm talking about.
You haven't demonstrated any insight into the task you are suggesting :-(
I also know that with just liscence agreements from EA alone I could pump out 2 different Amiga TVGamers that had 10 quality games on each one -- I also know that one agreement would get the rights to all Hewson and Epyx titles, and one agreement with Atari would get another eleven game companys IP. I'm not just talking out my arse...
I never said you were talking out of your arse, I simple said that you have not shown that you fully understand what is requried to pull this off.
Though this does highllight soem more problems... some amiga ames used mouse input... some used joystick... others used Keyboard... quite a few used both... then some games wanted the joystick in Port 1 most wanted it in port port2... how the hell do you deal with that? Not to mention copy protections...
Remember that the source code to these games probably doesn't exist any more!
The only thing holding this back is: who owns the IP rights to the Amiga chipsets. That's all I want to know. :-)
And why do you need that? At best you need the Amiga Name... no one really knows who owns that, though it seems a company called KMOS owns it today. At worst you'll need the Amiga name and the rights to use the OS (assuming you don't use AROS), I think the best place to go would be cloanto and buy it from them.
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CatHerder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Since I know what I'm talking about, and I have researched the subject of the custom chip technology myself many years ago (1999), I feel I am well placed to point out the flaws in your idea. BEAUSE the technology is old it means there are very few FABs that can build the chips. Modern chips use a very technology to old one, you can't even use the same gate layouts anymore due to different capacitances! If you read what I'm trying to say, you will realise I have nothing against the idea, but your flaw is in the implementation.
Why would you want to fabricate chips to old specs? That's just a bad idea. You want the IP from those chips to fabricate new chips using current design parameters. It's not a difficult thing to do. Why would you want to do any of what you mention above is beyond me.
You don't need the IP for the design specs, the harware is well documented, and ther are several emulators which fully implement the hardware spec. In fact what's left of the IP probably wouldn't give you enough information to build any hardware anymore.
Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.
Then you don't need the IP, you can just go to your engineering team and get them to knock a design together, based on freely available documents on the web and looking at Emualtor source code.
I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.
!!!!AGAIN, THE IP IS WORTHLESS FOR THIS TASK!!!!
If you can bring it in for $19.99 that would rock, but I doubt it, there are just too many factors to consider.
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bloodline is correct, even if he could be a little lighter in his point of view, so as it didnt sound so much like, your an idiot this wont work.
But if your not using the original chip degsigns , then it really doesnt matter who owns the IP or has the chip designs. And it would be cheaper to work from info freely available info on the net, and uae source code for instance
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bloodline wrote:
There is not a game company in the world that would not lisence their old stuff. It's smart business sense.
And what do you project they would ask as a licence fee? a one off payment of $100000 or 3% of sales or 10%? whatever it's not going to be cheap.
THat does not matter at all. If it's 1% or 5% that makes no difference. As long as the end result is the company is profitable selling the retro game devices, it really doesn't matter what royalties you pay... If you're going to project selling 250,000 units of each "model" (game bundle) and you tell Atari "Hey, we'll give you $125,000 to lisence ten of your fiteen year-old games for this." they'll be very pleased. I'd suspect it would be more like 1% or less for the royalty frankly.
As I keep saying -- the royalty factor for the games is a NON ISSUE. It's pennies per unit, the lower the pennies the better your side was in making the deal.
I couldn't care less how an OLD Amiga chip was manufactured - I don't want to make one. I care how it was designed - and if this means simply emulating, or reverse-engineering each chip to come up with a new single chip encompassing the entire Amiga (lets just stick with an A500 for now) so be it. It's not a hard thing to do - this is 18 year old technology we're talking about. Any off-the-shelf integrated RF modulator would work with this, a cost of production of $0.72 per unit, and there's already 3 to pick from that are used in other retro devices.
First you say you don't care how the new machine is made... then at the bottom you ask who own the IP (Gateway)... but unless you are using the actual Chipset design (which we have already established is useless) you don't need to know who own the IP. You show no understanding here.
You're apparently confused.
The INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY is probably still owned by Gateway and lisenced to Cloanto (and some others). You cannot retail any product where another company owns the IP. Do you know what IP is? Have you ever been anything more than an employee in any tech company? I have.
You sell something where somebody else owns the IP, you find yourself taking all your profits from your sales to defend yourself in court -- or you give up way more to settle. You're better off making the proper lisence fees and royalty deals beforehand.
Why do you keep going on about the age of the technology?
It's 18year old technology, but it was totally custom, it's age does not make it easier to recreate, but harder. Unless you go the Emulation route in which case the IP holder does not need to be involved.
Again - oblivious.
If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs? Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)
Age and the technology in the Amiga chipset doesn't make it harder to recreate - it just possibly makes it impossible to make the OLD CHIPS.
Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.
I couldn't care less about expansions, networking, hard drives, floppy drives, or anything remotely related to a real computer - I want to make hand-held stand-alone game units that contain 10 games. (Or one that has a propritary cartridge slot that allows you to plug in various game sets).
Hmmm, 10 games... at an average of 2.5 disks per game that's about 25meg + another 2meg for the OS + another 2meg for your emulation software + 1 meg for your firmware... so you'll need a 32meg ROM (maybe more depending on which games you want to use)... which isn't going to be cheap.
The Amiga never used cartridges, so you are totally on your own... how do you get these catridges to boot? How much do the cartridges cost to manufacture? How do you deal with multiple disks on one cartridge?
You're way off in the size of the games. The vast majority of the games came on single 800K disks. Many great games could fit along with 3 or 4 other great games on ONE of those disks. Who said the first Amiga RetroGamer or TVGamer would have to be AGA (where most of the multi-disk games are found)? Maybe it would basically be a 1MB A500 which would give it access to 200 times more games?
Who cares that the Amigas never came on cartridges?! The delivery mechanism for the data ROM (containing the game) doesn't matter in the least regarding how/if it works.
The Amiga games never came on ADFs and they weren't bought on my PC's 200GB hard drive formatted in NTFS yet they still load and play in my Amiga emulator. I can put the same games on a single 32MB USB ram "cartridge" and still load them in my emulator and so can you (you show that you have a mobile emulating device already so WTF is your point here other than to argue for the sake of trolling).
IF - IF - an Amiga RetroGamer was designed with the idea of selling one base unit with the ability to buy game cartridges that contained various compillations, all you need to do is build in the ability to boot any of those games from that storage device (the cartridge). I said proprietary cardridge for a reason - its called piracy. You wouldn't want to make these devices and just use USB ram cards (which retail for about $10 for a 32MB btw), otherwise you'd sell one device and never sell another single expansion product again.
and what about cool, era defining games like "Monkey Island 2" - a game the always brings up the topic of Amiga... every one I know played MI2 on an A500... that has 12 disks alone! I wouldn't buy a box just to play MI2... it would have to have other stuff as well.
Who cares? I don't. I couldn't care less if somebody doesn't buy one of these because it doesnt have Monkey Island. Nobody in the company would care either. I have over 20,000 other Amiga game titles to pick from.
And, who's to say there wouldn't be a single Special Edition Monkey Island cartridge you could buy later on for $5 or $10... I don't think you see the big picture here.
And yes, I do know a bit about manufacturing computer products and I have worked with a few overseas firms getting designs fabricated. (I was head of IT/IS at AST Computers). I also have a pretty solid Amiga background -- I do know what I'm talking about.
You haven't demonstrated any insight into the task you are suggesting :-(
If you say so.
I still say you're responding just for the sake of trolling. You haven't brought up a really good counter argument to why this is a bad idea, or why it would be impossible.
I never said you were talking out of your arse, I simple said that you have not shown that you fully understand what is requried to pull this off.
I couldnt give a damn what you think when you don't offer any valuable opinions other than knee jerk comments that aren't gounded in reality. You certainly haven't shown me anything of value whatsoever in this discussion. All I see is an embittered Amiga user who dreams that his 1994 technology still rocks...
But wait...
I too think it does still rock - and so will 5 million kids who want to play these Amiga games on their TV screens next Christmas.
Though this does highllight soem more problems... some amiga ames used mouse input... some used joystick... others used Keyboard... quite a few used both... then some games wanted the joystick in Port 1 most wanted it in port port2... how the hell do you deal with that? Not to mention copy protections...
EASY.
You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .
Remember that the source code to these games probably doesn't exist any more!
Who cares? The games on ADF exist, and there is an ample library of 9,000 originals in the room behind me. I don't need the source code... I just need a device that is able to read the data I shove on the game ROM.
And providing you have a lisence agreement with the original game company or the current IP holder for that game, you can easily reverse-engineer the boot loader etc on an existing Amiga or within UAE. I'm sure there's still some talented Amiga hackers out there who would love to be involved in some contract work to modify some old Amiga game software (and remove the "hacked by so and so" loaders etc and replace them with something more sanitized).
There's probably a couple who even read this forum once in a while.
And why do you need that? At best you need the Amiga Name... no one really knows who owns that, though it seems a company called KMOS owns it today. At worst you'll need the Amiga name and the rights to use the OS (assuming you don't use AROS), I think the best place to go would be cloanto and buy it from them.
You can not sell any product where another company owns the Intellectual Property rights. The games, the Amiga technology, the ROMS. End of story.
You need the IP rights to be able to sell the property in any way shape or form (lisenced, outright, etc.). The IP holder most definitely needs to be involved.
So far that looks like Gateway and Cloanto need to be part of the deal (lisence or royalty) - but the question remains... who else?
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JJ wrote:
bloodline is correct, even if he could be a little lighter in his point of view, so as it didnt sound so much like, your an idiot this wont work.
But if your not using the original chip degsigns , then it really doesnt matter who owns the IP or has the chip designs. And it would be cheaper to work from info freely available info on the net, and uae source code for instance
No. Bloodline is just plain wrong. Pure and simple.
You need the IP to be able to do this legally. You cant sell UAE, you can't sell the ROM images for UAE (Cloanto owns the rights to that IP, and I think Gateway still owns the IP, or somebody else like Amiga International or whatever other bankrupt entity out there... too hard to follow).
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bloodline wrote:
Where did I say "build the old chips" ?? I think you've assumed something I've never intended to do.
Then you don't need the IP, you can just go to your engineering team and get them to knock a design together, based on freely available documents on the web and looking at Emualtor source code.
What a load of BS. You apparently don't know what IP is, nevermind the legal ramifications of using somebody else's IP for profit.
I said I want to get the IP from the old chips and make a single new chip that does everything that those chips did with the targeted end result being the ability to run Amiga games on your TV screen for $19.95 per package.
!!!!AGAIN, THE IP IS WORTHLESS FOR THIS TASK!!!!
If you can bring it in for $19.99 that would rock, but I doubt it, there are just too many factors to consider.[/quote]
Again, you show your coplete lack of reality when it comes to the legal world and what ownership means.
I'd understand this if you were from China where IP is a completely new concept (in the past few years), but being from England surely you know what it means to own something?
If Gateway owns the Intellectual Property rights to the Amiga chipset, and Cloanto is the sole lisenced IP holder for the ROMS, and you create a new product based on the technologies of either of those companies -- even through emulation -- and you sell it: you'll be going to court very soon or you will be forking over all your profits in a settlement...
To do this you need the right agreement with whomever holds the IP. It's a pretty basic fact.
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If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs?
Cloanto have a licence to sell the ROM images. And as I keep sayign unless you use AROS you will have to licence that too. This is a non issue, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)
It's because you can't sell GPL'ed IP... I thought you understood about IP?
You can include UAE in a retail product (as long as you provide the source code), as Amiga forever show.
Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.
No, they either used a 6502 compatible microcontroler, or use an ARM runing an emulation. Though, looking at the Nintendo and other units, they seem to be recreations of the games, i.e. recoded just using the old graphics and audio. And running on modern, cheap, hardware.
The Amiga games never came on ADFs and they weren't bought on my PC's 200GB hard drive formatted in NTFS yet they still load and play in my Amiga emulator. I can put the same games on a single 32MB USB ram "cartridge" and still load them in my emulator and so can you (you show that you have a mobile emulating device already so WTF is your point here other than to argue for the sake of trolling).
No, my point about ADFs is that you will need a special loader on your hardwareto handle loading the ADF's either onto your machine or into the emulator you choose... and there is the issue of disk swaping... some thing that the user doesn't want to be bothered with... that will require a simple and powerful loader + a nice pretty menu...
IF - IF - an Amiga RetroGamer was designed with the idea of selling one base unit with the ability to buy game cartridges that contained various compillations, all you need to do is build in the ability to boot any of those games from that storage device (the cartridge). I said proprietary cardridge for a reason - its called piracy. You wouldn't want to make these devices and just use USB ram cards (which retail for about $10 for a 32MB btw), otherwise you'd sell one device and never sell another single expansion product again.
The reason why you wouldn't use USB Cartridge is not for piracy concerns, but because adding USB host support to your device would cost a lot!
But then adding any kind of Cartridge support to the design is going to cost you...
I still say you're responding just for the sake of trolling. You haven't brought up a really good counter argument to why this is a bad idea, or why it would be impossible.
What, other than the countless post I and others have made on this topic?
I'm not saying it's a bad idea or impossible, I just don't think you have a clear idea of what is actually involved!
I couldnt give a damn what you think when you don't offer any valuable opinions other than knee jerk comments that aren't gounded in reality. You certainly haven't shown me anything of value whatsoever in this discussion. All I see is an embittered Amiga user who dreams that his 1994 technology still rocks...
Hey don't insult the Amiga users here :-x
At no point have I said that the Amgia technology "rocks", in fact I have been making an argument against using it, and using modern hardware instead... (Anyone on this forum will tell you that I'm no advocate of Amiga technology ;-))
I'll tell you what I think rocks... my iPAQ running UAE
You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .
Ahh that ok then... I though you'd want to include Lemmings and Worms + the countless RPG's that Amiga users spent most of their time playing, and made the Amiga famous.
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Perhaps we could contact KMOS and ask them who owns which IPs - as I doubt they would have come into this community without doing their homework first. Hopefully, they'll have a list of which parts of the original amiga IPs are owned by which companies.
Samuar
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@bloodline
U just took the words right out of my mouth....
@ other dude
u really need to look into the implications of this alot more, if u were not mention amiga on your tv amgia game player thingy, the only thing u would need licence for would be the kickstart roms
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Figures, I mentioned this whole idea months ago and got zero positive response ?
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dmac721 wrote:
Figures, I mentioned this whole idea months ago and got zero positive response ?
Well, I don't think much has changed in a few months...
Best anyone can do is build a technology demonstrator, if they can get the prototype in and working, for under $100 then you know that this idea is real and doable.
Once it's technologicaly proven, then an only then can anyone start taking licences and actually selling the thing. Until then it is just a pipe dream.
I would rather someone proved me wrong with a real device than sat here telling me and others that we are just trolling.
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Well see there is a neat thing about it. You wouldn't actually HAVE to prototype the chipsets, all you would have to do is prototype something that even UAE could be compiled and run on well, or even "parts" of UAE.
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dmac721 wrote:
Well see there is a neat thing about it. You wouldn't actually HAVE to prototype the chipsets, all you would have to do is prototype something that even UAE could be compiled and run on well, or even "parts" of UAE.
Yeah, well for £240 I have a handheld Amiga Prototype...
Again with the photos (Yeah I love showing them :-D):
(http://www.ahsodit.com/iPaqWB1.jpg)
(http://www.ahsodit.com/iPaqWB2.jpg)
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I was thinking more along the lines of a 68k and a rom with a I/O controller, and a video/sound chip that would actually still run parts of os1.3 and the ECS would be emulated
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UAE already works on Sega Dreamcasts - which come with controllers and TV-OUT; second hand they are about £20 and you can purchase Keyboards and Mice for them. Hell, I've got Doom on Linux running on mine.
Out of this box, we wouldnt need the GD-ROM Drive (special kind of CD-ROM) if replaced with flash; no need for the Modem or Broadband adapter - which would reduce its profile considerably.
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dmac721 wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of a 68k and a rom with a I/O controller, and a video/sound chip that would actually still run parts of os1.3 and the ECS would be emulated
Well at the most basic level all you need a 68k compatible chip (a dragonball) + a frame buffer... then load a patched AmigaOS (to remove the gfx chip depenacies... or use AROS etc...) on it. But it wouldn't run any old games as they hit the hardware.
That means you need a chip to emulate the chipset... if you are emulating the chipset it would be cheaper to get one chip that runs UAE (Chipset & 68k) than to have a 68k + another chip. Then you've got an iPAQ running UAE :-D
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Samuar wrote:
UAE already works on Sega Dreamcasts - which come with controllers and TV-OUT; second hand they are about £20 and you can purchase Keyboards and Mice for them. Hell, I've got Doom on Linux running on mine.
Out of this box, we wouldnt need the GD-ROM Drive (special kind of CD-ROM) if replaced with flash; no need for the Modem or Broadband adapter - which would reduce its profile considerably.
Now that's a much better idea!
Get a simple MIPS box with a cheap VGA chip + an RF + USB. Put linux and UAE on it and you have your retro box.
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I don't see what this argument is about, there is no fundamental reason that this can't be done. Yes there are problems to solve but nothing that *can't* be solved. It wont be easy or cheap but they're not reasons to not try.
Regarding IP you seem to be going by different definitions one says "owership rights" the other seems to think it's specific designs.
Both are right but the real problem is can the original designs be reworked into a form which can be used with a modern IC design process? Again not cheap but almost certainly, and even if they can't UAE and other docs can be used.
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I am not arguing or trying to cause an argument, just trying to point out flaws, and possible better , easier, cheaper ways of doing things, it just so happens that bloodline is saying them first, with no tact at all :-) :-D :-D :-D
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The MIPS + Uae idea looks to be the simplest, quickest and cheapest way of getting this product idea to market - as suggested by bloodline - which only leaves getting licenses for games.
However, a prototype shouldnt be too hard to knock up, which could run games that we already have single licenses for.
Running Uae ontop of another OS seems practical, especially if a little extra time is taken to make the os, say linux, small, lightweight and can boot quickly - almost becoming invisible to the consumer. This isnt too difficult to do as linux is excellent in embedded devices.
Once a prototype is ready, it could be demo'd at Amiga Shows (tho the device is more aimed at any home users, rather than amiga followers) and then aim to get some financial backing and get IP issues sorted.
I'd be interested in working on such a project.
Samuar
Edit/Addition:
The Sega Dreamcast uses a SuperH processor as opposed to a MIPS. However, with a bit of hardware and software work, it could be used as a proof of theory concept prototype.
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Samuar wrote:
The Sega Dreamcast uses a SuperH processor as opposed to a MIPS. However, with a bit of hardware and software work, it could be used as a proof of theory concept prototype.
My Error, I thought the SuperH was a MIPS clone :-)
I recon a prototype could be put together for very little money, your ideas are sensible.
-Edit- THe SuperH looks great!! http://www.superh.com/products/sh5.htm
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Yeah, SuperH is pretty decent. When you consider an SH4 with 16MB RAM and a PowerVR2 (graphics) chip can, when combined, runs Quake III Arena off an 1GB optical disk, I'd say its impressive.
My x86 box couldnt run Q3A with 16MB RAM.
Samuar
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bloodline wrote:
If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs?
Cloanto have a licence to sell the ROM images. And as I keep sayign unless you use AROS you will have to licence that too. This is a non issue, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Because you're the dummy who keeps saying the IP doesn't matter FFS!
Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)
It's because you can't sell GPL'ed IP... I thought you understood about IP?
You can include UAE in a retail product (as long as you provide the source code), as Amiga forever show.
Bzzzt. Wrong.
Cloanto can sell their package and include UAE because they have the current exclusive rights to produce/reproduce the ROMS. Name another legal UAE retailer. ?
Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.
No, they either used a 6502 compatible microcontroler, or use an ARM runing an emulation. Though, looking at the Nintendo and other units, they seem to be recreations of the games, i.e. recoded just using the old graphics and audio. And running on modern, cheap, hardware.
Excellent... you chomped right down on that one.
EXACTLY!! They are using a current customized chip(s) to run the 64 TVGamer, and have modified the games (hey, what do you know they somehow modified TWENTYFIVE YEAR OLD games. Wow, but you said up above that's impossible because the source code would all be gone...)
"Trivia details - Jeri spent hundreds of hours developing the ASIC for the C64= DTV. In her quest to get the C64 DTV just right, she traveled to China and stayed there for a week, making daily journeys between her hotel in Hong Kong and the Mammoth Toy factory, working usually until 10 at night. ...
She also went to Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada for a few days to partner up with Robin Harbron, who worked on converting the games for the DTV"
No, my point about ADFs is that you will need a special loader on your hardwareto handle loading the ADF's either onto your machine or into the emulator you choose... and there is the issue of disk swaping... some thing that the user doesn't want to be bothered with... that will require a simple and powerful loader + a nice pretty menu...
BZZZT wrong again.
Who said anything about providing the games in adf format? I don't think you have the ability to think past step one of every idea presented. I said an Amiga emulator can currenty read Amiga games from multiple data sources - sources that did not exist when an Amiga was around.
That was in response to why you thought you couldn't use a cartridge. Now you're changing it to cost (which I mentioned on PAGE ONE of this thread). Come on man, you're trolling pure and simple.
THe games are ALL out there in ADF format - so, you load em up in your hand dandy Amiga emulator, and you save them in some other format. OR, you load em up on your handy dandy real Amiga and you save them in some other format. (not a hard concept, work with me here)
The reason why you wouldn't use USB Cartridge is not for piracy concerns, but because adding USB host support to your device would cost a lot! But then adding any kind of Cartridge support to the design is going to cost you...
You want something proprietary so people don't grab games offline (in the initial first year of the product's lifecycle) and use them with your game device. You want somethig that generates sales. I don't care about expandability, portability (other than it's physical size), etc. I want something that sells, and resells. I already know (I've sourced them) that I can buy 16MB USB "carts" for $0.98 each from Taiwan (lots of 5,000). I'm sure if I bought 100,000 of them I could get them for $0.35 or $0.40 each. If it were possible to put an interface on the GameTV device that accepted those USB "carts", and it didnt cost $2-$5 to do so, then maybe it would be an ok idea.
But it's not an ok idea from the company's point of view: because you can also plug that USB 16MB cart into your PC or Mac and potentially run other games on the GameTV -- games that people didn't pay the company for. (I'd give it 30 days for somebody on the internet to come up with an "ADF to GameTV converter" if you used USB).
However, you're right about the usb-hc cost being too high (about a buck fifty) if you're trying to make these for under $10 each. The biggest problem then ,though, would be power - you couldn't expect this to work without an AC adapter if you included USB, batteries just wouldn't cut it (or you'd need expensive battery packs).
Although... including a USB port would allow you to use a mouse. But there again, a huge power sucker when it comes to the size of what we're discussing here. And you'd need two ports if you wanted to use a game cart and a mouse (even more expense).
You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .
Ahh that ok then... I though you'd want to include Lemmings and Worms + the countless RPG's that Amiga users spent most of their time playing, and made the Amiga famous.
[/quote]
Yes, you're right there. Dungeon Master, Settlers, etc... But that fare really isn't suited as a "TV" game is it. You want a bunch of shoot em ups, beat em ups, and drive em fasts. (Remember, the primary market wouldn't be old Amiga users, it would be today's kids).
Including a mouse "emulator" and remapping the buttons and the joystick (just like you do on an XBox when emulating an Amiga) would solve that and not add anything to the cost. It wouldn't be as playable though (joystick emulating a mouse never is), perhaps a mouse-port is in order... bah added expense again!
The beauty of selling these as an all-inclusive 10 games per GameTV device is you can customize the controls based on what games you bundle. That's the concept (single stand alone ~10 game GameTV devices or "Amiga RetroGamer"). I've bandied about the idea of a cartridge version and I suppose it could be handled in the same sort of way - the "emulator" pulls the controller information from whatever cartridge is installed.
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Samuar wrote:
The MIPS + Uae idea looks to be the simplest, quickest and cheapest way of getting this product idea to market - as suggested by bloodline - which only leaves getting licenses for games.
However, a prototype shouldnt be too hard to knock up, which could run games that we already have single licenses for.
Running Uae ontop of another OS seems practical, especially if a little extra time is taken to make the os, say linux, small, lightweight and can boot quickly - almost becoming invisible to the consumer. This isnt too difficult to do as linux is excellent in embedded devices.
Once a prototype is ready, it could be demo'd at Amiga Shows (tho the device is more aimed at any home users, rather than amiga followers) and then aim to get some financial backing and get IP issues sorted.
I'd be interested in working on such a project.
Samuar
Edit/Addition:
The Sega Dreamcast uses a SuperH processor as opposed to a MIPS. However, with a bit of hardware and software work, it could be used as a proof of theory concept prototype.
That sounds like a far too pricey a product. Nothing like what I'm talking about at all. But good luck with it. Wait, can't you do the above, exactly, already with a $200 hand-held device?
I want to retail $20 to $25 game devices, and the money to make it is not the issue.
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JJ wrote:
I am not arguing or trying to cause an argument, just trying to point out flaws, and possible better , easier, cheaper ways of doing things, it just so happens that bloodline is saying them first, with no tact at all :-) :-D :-D :-D
Actually, you haven't argued or pointed out a single thing. All you've done is applied your lips to bloodline's ass repeatedly. Seriously. Show me ONE SINGLE THING you've added to this thread.
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CatHerder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
If the IP holder doesn't matter - why does Cloanto exist and retain the lone rights to the ROMS, and make a profit selling their keyed ROMs?
Cloanto have a licence to sell the ROM images. And as I keep saying unless you use AROS you will have to licence that too. This is a non issue, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Because you're the dummy who keeps saying the IP doesn't matter FFS!
At least I understand that the Osperating syetem IP and the Chipset IP are two separeate entities, which have nothing to do with each other any more.
In fact you have 3 separate entities!!!
Harware IP
Operating system IP
Trade Marks
The Harware IP is useless
The OS can be obtained from Cloanto
You can try and talk to KMOS about licencing the name... but I think Eyetech would moan about that.
Again, do you have any concept of what IP is? Why isn't AUE or Amiga in a Box sold as a retail product? (Because it can't legally be sold as such.)
It's because you can't sell GPL'ed IP... I thought you understood about IP?
You can include UAE in a retail product (as long as you provide the source code), as Amiga forever show.
Bzzzt. Wrong.
Cloanto can sell their package and include UAE because they have the current exclusive rights to produce/reproduce the ROMS. Name another legal UAE retailer. ?
There is an emulation pack available in my local HMV that includes WinUAE (without the ROMS)... but that is not the point, the point is that UAE is GPL. A better example is the router I bought recently came with a little note that some of the software on it's ROM was GPL'ed and I could download the source code to that software from their Website. This is a GPL issue. UAE has nothing to do with Amiga IP, nothing what so ever. There is no law against being compatible with something else, this isn't even a grey area, it's simple black and white!
Somehow Tulip has been manufacturing C64 ROMS, CPUs and other chips from old technology. Yes, I realize it's different tech - but its also 5-10 years older... so how the hell did somebody produce those? A time machine? No, they just found the right fab.
No, they either used a 6502 compatible microcontroler, or use an ARM runing an emulation. Though, looking at the Nintendo and other units, they seem to be recreations of the games, i.e. recoded just using the old graphics and audio. And running on modern, cheap, hardware.
Excellent... you chomped right down on that one.
EXACTLY!! They are using a current customized chip(s) to run the 64 TVGamer, and have modified the games (hey, what do you know they somehow modified TWENTYFIVE YEAR OLD games. Wow, but you said up above that's impossible because the source code would all be gone...)
Those companies published the games of course they have the source graphics and sounds... I would be surprised if EA still had even half the Source code to their Amiga back catalogue.
I remember Daniel Silva saying that EA dumped the source to DPaint when they saw the amiga market dry up. The Source was tied to the Amiga platfrom (not in anyway portable), and as far as they were concerned the platfromwas dead... the source disks/tapes were just wasting space.
Remember that the C86/Nintendo/Atari 8bit's etc, were much simpler than the Amiga recoding the games wouldn't take long.
There is a bloke, who in his spare time has coded a GTA clone for the NES.
"Trivia details - Jeri spent hundreds of hours developing the ASIC for the C64= DTV. In her quest to get the C64 DTV just right, she traveled to China and stayed there for a week, making daily journeys between her hotel in Hong Kong and the Mammoth Toy factory, working usually until 10 at night. ...
She also went to Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada for a few days to partner up with Robin Harbron, who worked on converting the games for the DTV"
Is this part of the Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense)?
No, my point about ADFs is that you will need a special loader on your hardwareto handle loading the ADF's either onto your machine or into the emulator you choose... and there is the issue of disk swaping... some thing that the user doesn't want to be bothered with... that will require a simple and powerful loader + a nice pretty menu...
BZZZT wrong again.
Who said anything about providing the games in adf format? I don't think you have the ability to think past step one of every idea presented. I said an Amiga emulator can currenty read Amiga games from multiple data sources - sources that did not exist when an Amiga was around.
That was in response to why you thought you couldn't use a cartridge. Now you're changing it to cost (which I mentioned on PAGE ONE of this thread). Come on man, you're trolling pure and simple.
THe games are ALL out there in ADF format - so, you load em up in your hand dandy Amiga emulator, and you save them in some other format. OR, you load em up on your handy dandy real Amiga and you save them in some other format. (not a hard concept, work with me here)
The reason why you wouldn't use USB Cartridge is not for piracy concerns, but because adding USB host support to your device would cost a lot! But then adding any kind of Cartridge support to the design is going to cost you...
You want something proprietary so people don't grab games offline (in the initial first year of the product's lifecycle) and use them with your game device. You want somethig that generates sales. I don't care about expandability, portability (other than it's physical size), etc. I want something that sells, and resells. I already know (I've sourced them) that I can buy 16MB USB "carts" for $0.98 each from Taiwan (lots of 5,000). I'm sure if I bought 100,000 of them I could get them for $0.35 or $0.40 each. If it were possible to put an interface on the GameTV device that accepted those USB "carts", and it didnt cost $2-$5 to do so, then maybe it would be an ok idea.
But it's not an ok idea from the company's point of view: because you can also plug that USB 16MB cart into your PC or Mac and potentially run other games on the GameTV -- games that people didn't pay the company for. (I'd give it 30 days for somebody on the internet to come up with an "ADF to GameTV converter" if you used USB).
Or you use a custom format on the USB flash stick...?
However, you're right about the usb-hc cost being too high (about a buck fifty) if you're trying to make these for under $10 each. The biggest problem then ,though, would be power - you couldn't expect this to work without an AC adapter if you included USB, batteries just wouldn't cut it (or you'd need expensive battery packs).
Although... including a USB port would allow you to use a mouse. But there again, a huge power sucker when it comes to the size of what we're discussing here. And you'd need two ports if you wanted to use a game cart and a mouse (even more expense).
You only offer games that use a joystick. Wow, what a concept. Think that one through. I mean sure, that will limit the selection to a mere 10,000 titles, but I'm sure there's 10 or 20 worth picking in there. . .
Ahh that ok then... I though you'd want to include Lemmings and Worms + the countless RPG's that Amiga users spent most of their time playing, and made the Amiga famous.
Yes, you're right there. Dungeon Master, Settlers, etc... But that fare really isn't suited as a "TV" game is it. You want a bunch of shoot em ups, beat em ups, and drive em fasts. (Remember, the primary market wouldn't be old Amiga users, it would be today's kids).
[/quote]
Yeah, I can see them getting excited about those games. "Hey Jimmy do you want to play GTA? No way man, I've got Outrun!"
Including a mouse "emulator" and remapping the buttons and the joystick (just like you do on an XBox when emulating an Amiga) would solve that and not add anything to the cost. It wouldn't be as playable though (joystick emulating a mouse never is), perhaps a mouse-port is in order... bah added expense again!
But what type of mouse port? USB is the most versitile as you can load up flash disks, keyboards, mice etc... or PS/2 but that is being phased out, and the port is less usefull...
The beauty of selling these as an all-inclusive 10 games per GameTV device is you can customize the controls based on what games you bundle. That's the concept (single stand alone ~10 game GameTV devices or "Amiga RetroGamer"). I've bandied about the idea of a cartridge version and I suppose it could be handled in the same sort of way - the "emulator" pulls the controller information from whatever cartridge is installed.
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CatHerder wrote:
Samuar wrote:
The MIPS + Uae idea looks to be the simplest, quickest and cheapest way of getting this product idea to market - as suggested by bloodline - which only leaves getting licenses for games.
However, a prototype shouldnt be too hard to knock up, which could run games that we already have single licenses for.
Running Uae ontop of another OS seems practical, especially if a little extra time is taken to make the os, say linux, small, lightweight and can boot quickly - almost becoming invisible to the consumer. This isnt too difficult to do as linux is excellent in embedded devices.
Once a prototype is ready, it could be demo'd at Amiga Shows (tho the device is more aimed at any home users, rather than amiga followers) and then aim to get some financial backing and get IP issues sorted.
I'd be interested in working on such a project.
Samuar
Edit/Addition:
The Sega Dreamcast uses a SuperH processor as opposed to a MIPS. However, with a bit of hardware and software work, it could be used as a proof of theory concept prototype.
That sounds like a far too pricey a product. Nothing like what I'm talking about at all. But good luck with it. Wait, can't you do the above, exactly, already with a $200 hand-held device?
I want to retail $20 to $25 game devices, and the money to make it is not the issue.
Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.
I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.
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Relax Catherder. No need to make this look like an eye for an eye ANN based thread where everybody needs to show what was said.
You've read Bloodline's comments, he doesn't share your point of view, possible because you 2 have a different definitions on certain meanings. Either leave it as it is, or take the things you can use from his comments.
If you think your idea can work, and it seems others share your view, either work out a business plan (perhaps with some people here) and get some money or cancel it now.
Or just stop this thread and start a new one after gathering some info from what was said here.
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@CatHerder
Hopefully it shouldnt be too expensive at all. The most expensive parts of PDAs are the screens (LCD & touch), the large amounts of memory and no doubt the Windows CE cost.
In essence, the idea is very similar to yours, but uses more work done by others - therefore reducing development time.
In fact, the key difference is a modern processor running UAE in some way - and once suggestion being via linux.
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bloodline wrote:
Samuar wrote:
UAE already works on Sega Dreamcasts - which come with controllers and TV-OUT; second hand they are about £20 and you can purchase Keyboards and Mice for them. Hell, I've got Doom on Linux running on mine.
Out of this box, we wouldnt need the GD-ROM Drive (special kind of CD-ROM) if replaced with flash; no need for the Modem or Broadband adapter - which would reduce its profile considerably.
Now that's a much better idea!
Get a simple MIPS box with a cheap VGA chip + an RF + USB. Put linux and UAE on it and you have your retro box.
Now you're saying a $130-$150 retail box item is a better idea... Interesting.
There are two flaws to your whole line of thinking. 1. It will never happen if the end product is in that price range. Anything over $50 and it will never see the light of day in the retail channels (you will never be able to convince anyone with a business model that claims people will pay $90 or $100 for these things when they can get an XBox, GameCube or PS2 for not a whole lot more -- and those offer NEW games).
And 2. the fact still remains: you need to license or purchase the IP for the ROMS (1.3 or 3.0 specifically) if you expect to sell these and not get sued for it. I also think Gateway (or whomever actually owns the Amiga IP) would be very interested in a product that is making money off emulating Amiga technologies. You can bet their lawyers will be knocking on the door very soon after your launch if you don't ensure you have the IP in order.
The reason retro gaming is so successful is because of the price point. It's nothing to do with a wide desire to play 15 year old games - it's because they are currently $19.95 and $24.95 items that people consider insignificant to purchase.
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seer wrote:
Relax Catherder. No need to make this look like an eye for an eye ANN based thread where everybody needs to show what was said.
You've read Bloodline's comments, he doesn't share your point of view, possible because you 2 have a different definitions on certain meanings. Either leave it as it is, or take the things you can use from his comments.
If you think your idea can work, and it seems others share your view, either work out a business plan (perhaps with some people here) and get some money or cancel it now.
Or just stop this thread and start a new one after gathering some info from what was said here.
Yeah, good advice. I just found it a really interesting disscussion, as it's something that I thought about alot about 5 years ago. The more research I did more, the less rosy the idea seemed :-(
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Embedded technology is not that expensive. Whislt the Dreamcast did cost $150 when it was released, that was arguably the best money could buy.
I think a £20 s/u dreamcast would make a good, cheap early prototype - it already has the stuff we need, although it comes with a lot of unnecessary extras.
The stage after would be to put together an embedded processor, small amount of RAM, a flash device plus it the input/output channel. Combine it with the software and we have our one off device.
Purchasing embedded components at the quantities you specified earlier would reduce the costs to little more than fabbing the components you were suggesting (if not cheaper because they are already being purchased by others). The big save would be that we wouldnt have to convert older designs to newer fabbing processors (or do any reverse engineering).
I consider this idea to be a merger of CatHerders and bloodlines suggestions and points.
As to the ROMs, i purchases a 1.3 ROM as part of a Amiga Emulator CD a while back (not as good as Amiga Forever no doubt) - but it was only £5. That £5 must have included the profit of the distributor and shop (Game/Electronics Beautique), the cost of licensing the ROM from Amiga and the costs and profit of the manufacturer. This would suggest to me, that the ROM is but a small fraction of the original £5 cost. Which, if the same licensing were available to us, would be perfect.
Samuar
PS//
I consider this to be one of the more interesting threads I have ever participated on.
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bloodline wrote:
Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.
I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.
Have you ever priced any of this out, or you just make guesses and post it?
i.e: how much for a 400MHz SH5 processor? Do you know? I happen to. Mind you, the last time I priced them out in quantities was about 20 days ago...
Do you know what VGA chip you would use? What's the cheapest one that can output Amiga resolutions and maintain at least 24fps? And how you would deliver that VGA display to a TV screen? As for audio, the AC97 (or cheaper) chip would cost around $0.80 per board if you bought it in quantities of 100,000.
How much to license the Amiga IP - that's the question you just keep avoiding because you do not seem to know what Intellectual Property is. $5 each? $20 each?
You will NOT be able to sell any sort of an Amiga emulator that uses any form of an Amiga ROM image (1.3 or 3.0 would be your most viable choices for widest compatability for the games that are available) without getting the IP licensed. And even selling the emulator is dicey at best without also lisencing the IP it's emulating (trust me, Gateway would be all over you like white on rice if you started selling Amiga emulator game devices and they were not getting a cut -- if they still own the IP that is).
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CatHerder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.
I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.
Have you ever priced any of this out, or you just make guesses and post it?
yup just a guess based on the price per unit of the components. I don't know about the SH4 CPU, but my old router cost me £40 and had a a fairly powerful little MIPS cpu in it.
i.e: how much for a 400MHz SH5 processor? Do you know? I happen to. Mind you, the last time I priced them out in quantities was about 20 days ago...
no I don't know about the SH4.. but any modern RISC embedded CPU will do and you can pick them up for a few $ in quanity.
Do you know what VGA chip you would use? What's the cheapest one that can output Amiga resolutions and maintain at least 24fps? And how you would deliver that VGA display to a TV screen? As for audio, the AC97 (or cheaper) chip would cost around $0.80 per board if you bought it in quantities of 100,000.
A simple VGA FB RAMDAC isn't goning to cost much at all, and by using UAE you don't have to worry about the Amiga Resolutions, which most games used 320*200 anyway with would scale to VGA without any problems.
For audio I would use a micro-controler with a lowpass filer + OPAMP as a simple PDM DAC... I expect the most expensive parts to be the ROM chips and the RAM.
How much to license the Amiga IP - that's the question you just keep avoiding because you do not seem to know what Intellectual Property is. $5 each? $20 each?
For 1.3, it's going to be tiny... There is some dispute as to if the 1.3 is even owned by anyone any more (but that a totally different matter).
You will NOT be able to sell any sort of an Amiga emulator that uses any form of an Amiga ROM image (1.3 or 3.0 would be your most viable choices for widest compatability for the games that are available) without getting the IP licensed. And even selling the emulator is dicey at best without also lisencing the IP it's emulating (trust me, Gateway would be all over you like white on rice if you started selling Amiga emulator game devices and they were not getting a cut -- if they still own the IP that is).
Not if you don't use any of their IP... which UAE doesn't.
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@CatHerder
Forgetting the wonderful world of IP for a second:
What does your idea use instead of our processor & chip combination and how is it cheaper?
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I pulled these specs for the SH-4 It really does seem like the prefect chip for the job (expensive though at $50/1k -Edit- that price is from 2002 :-D):
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Item Specification
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Product Code SH7760 (HD6417760BP200D)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating temperature -40(degrees)C + 85(degrees)C
range
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating voltage Internal: 1.5V I/O: 3.3V
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating frequency 200MHz (max.)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Processing speed 360MIPS, 1.4GFLOPS (at 200MHz)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
CPU core SH-4 core
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
CPU instructions 91 (16-bit fixed-length instructions)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Cache 16-KB instructions/32-KB data separation,
two-way set associative, write
through/copy back selectable
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
External memory Bus state controller supports SRAM,
Synchronous DRAM, Burst ROM
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Data bus width External 8/16/32 bits selectable
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
On-chip peripheral Interrupt controller (INTC)
functions Direct memory access controller (DMAC)
x 8channels
Clock pulse generator (CPG) with phase
locked loop (PLL)
Watch dog timer (WDT)
User break controller (UBC)
Timer unit (TMU) x 3 channels
Compare match timer (CMT) x 4 channels
LCD controller (LCDC)
Smart card interface module (SIM)
10-bit resolution A/D converter
x 4 channels
Advance user debugger (AUD)
Hitachi user debug interface (H-UDI)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Interfaces Serial communication interface with FIFO
(SCIF) X 3 channels
I2C bus interface x 2 channels
Serial sound interface (SSI) x 2 channels
Hitachi Audio CODEC interface (HAC)
x 2 channels
USB host interface (version 1.1 support)
x 1 channel
Hitachi controller area network 2 (HCAN2)
x 2 channels
Hitachi serial peripheral interface (HSPI)
MultiMediaCard interface (MMCIF)
NAND flash memory interface
Multi-function interface (MFI)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Power-down modes Sleep mode
Deep sleep mode
Software stand-by mode
Hardware stand-by mode
Module stand-by mode
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Package BGA-256 pin (21mm X 21mm, 1.0 mm pitch)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
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...not to mention existing OS support, from an OS which UAE runs on too.
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Samuar wrote:
As to the ROMs, i purchases a 1.3 ROM as part of a Amiga Emulator CD a while back (not as good as Amiga Forever no doubt) - but it was only £5. That £5 must have included the profit of the distributor and shop (Game/Electronics Beautique), the cost of licensing the ROM from Amiga and the costs and profit of the manufacturer. This would suggest to me, that the ROM is but a small fraction of the original £5 cost. Which, if the same licensing were available to us, would be perfect.
That is very interesting. I assume it's a valid (legitimate) ROM as it came from a larger retailer. Hopefully it is, that would, to me, imply a 25 cent license. The cheaper everything is, the more likely this would be a successful venture.
I've emailed (and faxed) Cloanto asking them about the ROM license and what sort of quantity agreements they offer but haven't heard anything back from them.
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Samuar wrote:
...not to mention existing OS support, from an OS which UAE runs on too.
This cought my eye:
http://www.logicpd.com/eps/som/renesas/SH7760-10/
I've requested a quote per 1K
-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.
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Samuar wrote:
@CatHerder
What does your idea use instead of our processor & chip combination and how is it cheaper?
Leaving all IP concerns aside... :-)
My idea from the get go was either the same processor in the Dreamcast and a 300mm fab ROM with everything else on a very simple PCB. Or an embedded processor/ROM combo with all information excluding the games which would be contained in a 2nd ROM (this would allow for multiple versions of the game devices and probably would end up being cheaper in the long run - however the first option might be true as well). There is also another processor out there that is probably cheaper and I know is already smaller (and uses less battery or AC) and runs cooler.
The processor inside the Dreamcast is HOT. Have to keep that in mind - if you have to use a $3 heat spreader (they don't get cheaper than that) it defeats the purpose of spending $3 on one chip instead of $4.00 on another chip.
I also didn't see any issue with using a P2-400 integrated solution similar to what intel already delivers in automotive applications and other automated fabrication uses. It all comes down to cost - AND - what is available out there to emulate on. You don't want to have to reinvent the wheel every step of the way. You want to try to do this with off-the-shelf parts, or using a fab that allows you to use existing toolsets plus your own new tool(s).
Existing intel chips are tiny, and use about 1/32nd of the power that they did when they were inside PCs 5 years ago (I'm comparing a P2-400 today to a P2-400 when they were relatively new). They also have quite a number of existing solutions that fit with other toolsets from other major chip fabs (this means being able to integrate an existing cpu with additional tools into one sigle chip).
There's a few processor options available. The best solution will be the one that is 1) cheapest to buy in quantiy, 2) easiest to adopt using existing emulation, 3) has the ability to be embedded with other applications in a new wafer fab and 4) uses the least power.
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bloodline wrote:
I just found it a really interesting disscussion, as it's something that I thought about alot about 5 years ago. The more research I did more, the less rosy the idea seemed :-(
Me too. I've been thinking about this for that long as well (ever since I was running Amiga stuff on my PC and then on my DreamCast, etc..). My buddy Rob had a game console (a converted arcade machine) with a PC inside it running MAME and Amiga stuff years before anyone thought that would be a cool idea to do. Now we have XGamers :)
The thing is today the idea is looking rosy. The technology is now here to be able to deliver a cost effective product featuring 15 year old "tech" in a way that is "cool". It's also in a way that is "cool" to financial backers and retailers as well (everyone can see how they will make money off this).
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ARM is another alternative, particularly since UAE has a working binary for it. Not sure as to pricing.
Samuar
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I don't think the Dreamcast is powerful enough to emulate the Amiga properly. It has enough trouble emulating the Genesis which it only does reasonably well when using the PowerVR to do most of the graphics emulation. This causes glitches in some games and would probably not work as well for the Amiga hardware (the copper makes the kind of raster f/x that screw up these techniques that much easier). IIRC, the SH-4 doesn't scale much beyond 200MHz (the speed of the SH-4 in the Dreamcast) so I don't think it's a realistic choice here.
Out of curiousity, about how many gates are in the OCS or ECS chipset (not counting the 68k)?
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bloodline wrote:
-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.
Could probably get a cheaper ITX board for a demo.
You can get one with an SIS 2GHz processor and integrated everything for about $70.00 and most measure 5in by 5in.
Here's one as an example.
(http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20041009/image/ne84.jpg)
It's still too much $, but it demonstrates how small a full blown PC can be... one that runs todays applications (including web servers and database servers -- there's even dual CPU Mini-ITX boards out there now). A couple good writeups can be found here: http://www.mini-itx.com/
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Yeah, i've been keeping an eye out on mini-itx for a for years now. I think nano-itx will be ace (squeeze a computer into a 5 1/4 inch drive bay). Its a pity they arent cheaper. But, as a demo to potential investors...
On the other hand, we should consider sticking to the architecture we chose for the final product - if only so that we dont need to code the same things twice. I wish there were more embedded boards that came with TV OUT as standard like the above pictured nano-itx board.
Samuar
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Dont excuse me of kissing arse, I dont think I have ever spoke to bloodline in a forum, and hardly ever post, and In all my years of being a member of this site I have never trolled. I in fact said bloodline was saying things before me, and I was just repoint out what he had said in a less cut throat way. I am finding this dicussion very thought provoking and intersting, which is unusual these days. If u cant take critisim,and have bad points of your ideas discussed and put down, dont air them on a public forum
CatHerder wrote:
JJ wrote:
I am not arguing or trying to cause an argument, just trying to point out flaws, and possible better , easier, cheaper ways of doing things, it just so happens that bloodline is saying them first, with no tact at all :-) :-D :-D :-D
Actually, you haven't argued or pointed out a single thing. All you've done is applied your lips to bloodline's ass repeatedly. Seriously. Show me ONE SINGLE THING you've added to this thread.
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I think we have all got past our earlier arguments and/or differences. We seem to be concentrating on making progress on one of the best opportunities for the community in a while.
I think the next question is what do we do next?
Edit:
Suggestions, as always, are greatly appreciated.
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sorry needed to be said, and long travelling time between work and home lol.......
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I thought I would test the theory out. I've been playing Zool2 on WinUAE for hours - during the week when Half Life 2 has been released.
Jaguar XJ220 and Lotus III: The Ultimate Challenge are also a favourite of mine. Now I just need to find the adf file for Bart Simpson Vs The Space Mutants. :-D
Samuar
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CatHerder wrote:
bloodline wrote:
-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.
Could probably get a cheaper ITX board for a demo.
You can get one with an SIS 2GHz processor and integrated everything for about $70.00 and most measure 5in by 5in.
Here's one as an example.
(http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20041009/image/ne84.jpg)
It's still too much $, but it demonstrates how small a full blown PC can be... one that runs todays applications (including web servers and database servers -- there's even dual CPU Mini-ITX boards out there now). A couple good writeups can be found here: http://www.mini-itx.com/
Yes I have an 800Mhz Mini-ITX... the board has far too much functionality and is too large for what you require.
That Said if you could source the Nano C3 CPU and a cutdown Nothbridge, you might be able to buld a custom board using it.
The Advantage with using C3 is that UAE is already very optimised for the x86 and has a working JIT (not that that is important for old games).
But the Chip power hungry, requires a lot of support chips and it needs active cooling. It would work out to be too expensive in the end.
I prefer the idea of using an Embedded RISC system. I natuarally drife towards the ARM chips because they are so so small and cheap, and use no power at all... but I've been really impressed with the SH-4 spec and feature list.
If money was no object then putting two ARM9 cores on to a single chip with some support features (Audio + Gfx) would be the best idea, get Linux on it. Then optimise UAE to thread across the two CPUs.
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MskoDestny wrote:
I don't think the Dreamcast is powerful enough to emulate the Amiga properly. It has enough trouble emulating the Genesis which it only does reasonably well when using the PowerVR to do most of the graphics emulation. This causes glitches in some games and would probably not work as well for the Amiga hardware (the copper makes the kind of raster f/x that screw up these techniques that much easier). IIRC, the SH-4 doesn't scale much beyond 200MHz (the speed of the SH-4 in the Dreamcast) so I don't think it's a realistic choice here.
Maybe the SH-4 isn't perfect, but UAE is mostly CPU intensive... with careful optimiseation UAE could easilly get A500 speeds... though I'm not sure about sound quality... THat is why I suggest putting two smaller ARM cores on to on chips that would allow much better control of the timing issues and allow at least two parts of the emualtion to run at once... which is closer to the real thing (tm).
Out of curiousity, about how many gates are in the OCS or ECS chipset (not counting the 68k)?
I don't but if you read Dave Haynies post, this says that it's not much. And if you were recreating the functionality of such chips now you could probably get the whole lot on to one FPGA.
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Maybe the SH-4 isn't perfect, but UAE is mostly CPU intensive... with careful optimiseation UAE could easilly get A500 speeds... though I'm not sure about sound quality...
I've heard more than one report that even a high end PC can't fuly handle UAE (in AGA mode IIRC) so I'm not fully convinced about a CPU based emulator, especially on somthing with as little computing power as an ARM. Something with a "lockable" cache should do a better job though. A lockable cache allows you to map all or part of it to a specific area of RAM and use it as a high speed on-chip memory.
If you read Dave Haynies post, this says that it's not much. And if you were recreating the functionality of such chips now you could probably get the whole lot on to one FPGA.
Yes, they go to very high densities these days.
In fact the last Amiga custom chip "Toni" was an FPGA.
--
I'm wondering if there is a market beyond just a $25 toy (which is essentially what we're talking about).
I'm talking about a higher speced machine costing anything up to $100 and sold under the banner of a "retro computer". The people interesed will be grown up with jobs now so the price isn't a big deal, if sufficiently powerful it could emulate a number of different computers so the market wouldn't just be previous Amiga owners.
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So what you're after IS to resurrect BoXer then?
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minator wrote:
Maybe the SH-4 isn't perfect, but UAE is mostly CPU intensive... with careful optimiseation UAE could easilly get A500 speeds... though I'm not sure about sound quality...
I've heard more than one report that even a high end PC can't fuly handle UAE (in AGA mode IIRC) so I'm not fully convinced about a CPU based emulator, especially on somthing with as little computing power as an ARM. Something with a "lockable" cache should do a better job though. A lockable cache allows you to map all or part of it to a specific area of RAM and use it as a high speed on-chip memory.
I suggest you do your own research rather than relying on this information.
A P133 can run UAE almost prefectly, the only problem is the audio which is choppy, I can't run the latest version of UAE on it though as it doesn't have a new enough verion of DirectX. The same PC can fun Fellow (Which only goes up to A500+ spec) without problems.
My 600Mhz Athlon can run WinUAE, perfectly, including sound.
My ARM based PDA runs the Beta of PocketUAE at A500 speed, agains with choppy sound. Once the Emulation is optimised I expect it to run better.
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Martyn wrote:
So what you're after IS to resurrect BoXer then?
Coldfire+Atari Falcon compatible DSP+custom chips in FPGA :-P
Amiga,Atari and 68k Mac compatible?
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Dan wrote:
Martyn wrote:
So what you're after IS to resurrect BoXer then?
Coldfire+Atari Falcon compatible DSP+custom chips in FPGA :-P
Amiga,Atari and 68k Mac compatible?
Yeah, but I've already got one of them... and it runs MacOS X and Windows XP too :-P
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I'm talking about a higher speced machine costing anything up to $100 and sold under the banner of a "retro computer". The people interesed will be grown up with jobs now so the price isn't a big deal, if sufficiently powerful it could emulate a number of different computers so the market wouldn't just be previous Amiga owners.
Something like the C-one you mean but then 16/32 bit Home computers instead of 8 bits.
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bloodline wrote:
Dan wrote:
Martyn wrote:
So what you're after IS to resurrect BoXer then?
Coldfire+Atari Falcon compatible DSP+custom chips in FPGA :-P
Amiga,Atari and 68k Mac compatible?
Yeah, but I've already got one of them... and it runs MacOS X and Windows XP too :-P
But that one isn´t as cool :-P
But I too think that the price wouldn´t be worth it. Maybe Catweasel XVII? :lol:
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Maybe the SH-4 isn't perfect, but UAE is mostly CPU intensive... with careful optimiseation UAE could easilly get A500 speeds... though I'm not sure about sound quality... THat is why I suggest putting two smaller ARM cores on to on chips that would allow much better control of the timing issues and allow at least two parts of the emualtion to run at once... which is closer to the real thing (tm).
Unless you sacrificed a great deal of accuracy, A500 emulation will never be full speed on an SH-4. One of the faster ARM chips could probably pull it off (a 400MHz XScale could certainly do it), but in a toy with an end price of $25 dollars I don't think it will work out economically. You have to assume at least a 100% markup between the distributor and the retailer so that leaves you with no more than $12.50 to cover manufacturing, royalties for the games on thing, and whatever profit you want to come away with.
These little retrogames toys are made in the cheapest way possible. The system on a chip doesn't even live in a proper IC, just a silicon wafer directly attached to the PCB and covered with a blob of epoxy. This is probably the only way to get the per-unit cost down to something reasonable, but it does mean someone would have to spend the upfront cost to design an A500 on a chip. There are companies that will take an FPGA based design in Verilog and produce schematics you can take to a fab for a reasonable price.
I don't but if you read Dave Haynies post, this says that it's not much. And if you were recreating the functionality of such chips now you could probably get the whole lot on to one FPGA.
Oh, I'm sure you could fit the whole thing on an FPGA. These days they've got FPGAs that have millions of gates and considering that the A1000 was prototyped on a few breadboards using discrete logic chips the OCS chipset has to have considerably fewer gates than that. I was just wondering if anyone had a numerical estimate so I could guess how big of an FPGA I would need to give it a try. At some point I'd like to try and recreate the OCS chipset in an FPGA or a few CPLDs just as a hobby project (I have a way to go in digital logic before I can try that, but a guy can dream).
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CatHerder wrote:
You can get one with an SIS 2GHz processor and integrated everything for about $70.00 and most measure 5in by 5in.
Can you tell me where I can find this? Everything I can find is ~1GHz and costs well above $70. I'd love to get one of these things as a project board.
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http://www.mini-itx.com
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me.
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bloodline wrote:
http://www.mini-itx.com
That's where I looked. I can't find anything near 2GHz or $70 as quoted. The cheapest motherboard and processor is $113 for a 533MHz (with 1.2GHz at over $230).
Or am I missing something.