Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Brian on September 16, 2004, 10:40:16 AM
-
Does anyone here know if it would be possible to connect a 4GB 1" microdrive to the internal IDE of an A600 or A1200 somehow?
If it could be done fairly easy it might be an option for those of us who have added loads of stuff to our modded bewond recognision machines and are having a hard time fitting a 2.5" harddrive inside. ;-)
The internal IDE controller of an A6/1200 isn't that fast as we all know but what will be the bottle neck, the IDE controller or the drive? Also does it support master&slave?
-
@Brian:
Microdrives as far as I know uses the compact flash standard and should be usable in the A600/A1200 with a compact flash to ide -adaptor.
/Patrik
-
Brian wrote:
Does anyone here know if it would be possible to connect a 4GB 1" microdrive to the internal IDE of an A600 or A1200 somehow?
quote]
I thought you meant a ZX microdrive for a minute!
-
@Patrik
Sweet but does it support master/slave? I'm going to install a CD in my Black Widow A1200 project at the left side and with the scandoubler underneath it'll be cramped with a 2.5" drive in that end also so I'm looking for options now that my 2.5" drive in that machine has started to show signs of failure and needs changing anyway.
@jaseinblack
No I ment those microdrives that are for digital camcorders etc.
-
@ Brian
I have a CF to IDE adapter and it must support master and slave becasue when the jumper is set to slave, the card cannot be seen, but when set to master it appears (I have only the CF on my A4000T IDE).
-
Aaah.. Good.. so the master/slave is set on the converter then?
Do anyone know if those 2 & 4 GB microdrives are slower than the IDE interface or of the interface will be the bottleneck as always?`
Also are the drives silent (can't imagin a drive being too noisy being in a camcorder that records sound aswell but still)?
-
@ Brian:
Yes, the Master/Slave is a jumper on the interface (on mine anyway).
Speed: I haven't a clue, because this is the first IDE device I've had on my A4000T. I suspect the Miggy IDE will be the bottleneck, not the CF card. The CF card is slower than my SCSI drives.
Noise: I disconnected everything except the card on my A4000T and it was super quiet. All I could hear was the case fan and the PSU fan (when straining to hear). In an A1200 or A600 it will be the definition of quiet.
-
Noise: I disconnected everything except the card on my A4000T and it was super quiet. All I could hear was the case fan and the PSU fan (when straining to hear). In an A1200 or A600 it will be the definition of quiet.
Yes, but you are using a CARD and he wants to use a MicroDrive.
If my mate's iPod is anything to take into consideration, the noise level is super super low, you will barely notice it, if at all. Dunno if smaller models are as quiet.
The speed of a Microdrive is not THAt fast byut for Amiga needs I guess it's OK.
-
Personally I'd rather get 2x 512mb Compact Flash cards than a 1Gb
MicroDrive.
For Solid State:
----------------
a)Zero sound
b)Very low power consumption
c)No moving parts - less chance of drive failure
d)Faster seek times/access
e)Much smaller in size (1mm?)
f)Impact resistant
g)More impervious to heat/moisture
And the rest!
Go for a CompactFlash->IDE converter, it'd be the perfect companion
for your project in my opinion.
You could even change your floppy drive for an external card reader
with the access light next to the Amiga logo!
:-D
-
Power consumption and reliability are concerns. Microdrives are quite famous for the "click of death", and will NOT tolerate being squeezed at the center.
My boss had a 350Meg one for his Canon 10D, and I really hated it. I always carried a handful of 64Meg cards, instead.
-
Keep in mind that the number of writes you can do on a card is quite low for normal HD useage, so if you are going to have just that device, a card is useless, and a microdrive would be much better.
How much abuse can it have inside an A1200 case anyway? It would be just a matter of securing it in place properly....
-
Akira wrote:
Keep in mind that the number of writes you can do on a card is quite low for normal HD useage, so if you are going to have just that device, a card is useless, and a microdrive would be much better.
How much abuse can it have inside an A1200 case anyway? It would be just a matter of securing it in place properly....
Yes I second that - I have a 64 Mb card in a digital camera that's had a fair bit of use over a couple of weeks, but not nearly as much as it would if it was used as a hard drive for a few weeks. Already it's deteriorating (it holds less than it used to - not sure of Mb capacity but it now holds around 100 photos, used to be 140+)
You can have unlimited reads from a compact flash device but the write cycles are limited. Bear in mind that using it as a hard drive will mean many writes to the file allocation table (start of the compact flash card generally) and you will very quickly wear this region out.
There are special (eg. linux) filesystems for writing to CF media for this purpose - they scatter the allocation table across the card and also write sequentially to the card so that all areas wear out at the same speed. IIRC the fragmentation doesn't matter so much as it's random access anyway (no seek time).
go the microdrive and be careful I reckon
-
Flash card will do fine as Amiga-boot drives. It has no VM, no constant FS-updates.
Simply install the OS on it, and write protect it! :-D
-
I'm not concidering a flashcard... I will only have one device and as the flash can't take too many writes I'm taking the microdrive option.
Due to the small size of the microdrive I can secure it in place almost anywhere I want in the machine and since the machine isn't a toss and tumble machine but a custom mod project it'll not be subject for much abuse.
I guess we've come to the clonclusion of this thread that I was looking for, yes the microdrive is an option for me. With that in mind I can always go another road in case I can't find room for a 2.5" IDE drive (I'm currently concidering making a "bigger" custom cradle to make fixingpoints for both the HD and the CD so both can sit horisontal and securelty in the machine).
-
i like the idea of the microdrive. not having to worry about the number of writes etc.
plus i think the amiga's OS is far more suited to a limited write situation that CF presents than any other OS out there (no virutual memory (linux/mac), continuous registry writebacks (windows).
but just looking at the price of these things. man, do you work where they make these things or what? i mean,
i can buy an 80Gb 2.5" drive with 8Mb cache for the price of a 4Gb microdrive...
prices from www.scan.co.uk
-
No, neither do I work in their research department nor am I rich... I was mearly curious if it could be done in case I ran into problems fitting the HD with the CDRom inside the A1200.
-
You could of buy a mini iPod and extract the HD off it! :D
-
Ehm... would it contain the 2 or 4GB disks (won't go for anything less)? I think not but I could be wrong.
-
I'm not sure where this information has come from regarding
CompactFlash cards deteriorating but most digital camera manuals
advise formatting the card as soon as anything funny occurs i.e.
reduced space or whatever.
I'm surprised that if a card suddenly dropped from 140 photo capacity
to 100 that it would actually continue working.
Besides, what is IBM in relation to reliable data storage... DeathStar
drives?
:-D :-D :-D
Compact Flash cards have a data retention of 10yrs and hard disks have
an average 3 year data retention according to some specs I've been
reading.
Here are a few more comparisons:
Operating Temperature
---------------------
CF = -40°C to +85°C
HD = +5°C to +55°C
Operation Shock
---------------
CF = 500Gs
HD = 125Gs
Power Consumption
-----------------
CF = 0.6W
HD = 8.5W
Seek Times
----------
CF = 1.25ms
HD = 13.0ms
I would reconsider your decision to go IBM, not the most reliable
manufacturer on the planet. They sold their hard disk division to
Hitachi (probably because it was such a headache for them).
Also, like ZiP disks and Jazz disks, I'd feel very uncomfortable about
carrying around a fragile platter of a hard disk.
For mounting it in your A1200 it might not be such a problem, why not
out a MicroDrive AND a CF reader/writer in there. You could have the
cards coming out of the rear expansion port or one of the vents.
:-)
It'd allow you to compare each one as a simultaneous fair experiment.
Obviously with SCSI you're going to notice more of a difference with
the CF on 7-device chain... not sure they make SCSI microdrives.
;-)
-
It's coming from the fact that flash devices only are rated for a limited number of writes (and you can't just write an individual byte, you have to read in a whole block, change the desired data, and rewrite the whole block). For primarily read-only use, flash memory can be a great alternative to an actual disk. But if you are planning on using it just like it was a hard drive, with lots of write cycles, then it WILL eventually wear out.
-
But surely you can't get much more write-intensive than a digital
camera?
Take picture, save, don't like picture, delete, another few pictures,
delete whole disk etc.
And I've seen a Panasonic camcorder that uses Compact Flash or
similar.
Do these claims about degradation refer to a particular brand of
Compact Flash such as SanDisk/Olympus/Fuji etc?
What about Secure Digital, Sony Memory Stick, do they all have the
same trouble?
Like this rarely mentioned subject of hard disk hysteresis (recovery
of data after 10 formats) I haven't seen much evidence to back this
up.
-
These characteristics are present in most, if not all, forms of flash memory. However, the number of write cycles in current devices tends to be quite high, on the order of several hundred thousand. This is also on a per-block basis. Also, CF cards automatically map out bad blocks, so in most cases, this is unnoticed in practical use and cards can have a long life, even with the typical use in a digital camera. This would also explain why a card that has been used extremely much would lose some of its' capacity.
With the Amiga, I wouldn't be so worried about wearing out a CF card, however. On Linux, the default settings record an access time for each file, but this can be disabled, so that the drive is only written to when there is an actual write. I wouldn't recommend using flash for a swap partition though =P
-
So erm...
Compact Flash can be written to 300,000 times, with a data retention
of 10yrs and automatically maps out bad blocks...
... and you say a fragile, power hungry, slow access time hard disk by
the DeathStar Corporation is superior...
... based on the usage of an operating system that WRITES every time
it reads!?
:-D :-D :-D
I'm still going to go Compact Flash!
NERRR!
;-)
-
I never advocated using a Microdrive, I just merely presented the facts about flash and large amounts of write cycles, that's all. When I build a Linux MP3 player for my car, I'm probably going to use CF for the root partition, and dedicate a few megs on my MP3 hard drive for swap (the machine will have 48MB RAM, so I figure 128MB swap should be more than enough).
-
Oh, sorry!
:-)
Well, I didn't know Linux wrote a timestamp every time it accessed
files... talk about the potential for big brother!
;-)
I think solid-state would be ideal for in-car computing because it's
resistant to those giant potholes in the road... the kind that smash
up low-profile tyres etc.
:-D :-D
What kind of machine do you think you'll use? I kinda like those
little Sony tablet PCs with the 5" screen. However if I was to make
one I'd probably see what an A1200/CD32 with a MAS player could do.
The A600 would also be a good machine considering it's size, haven't
heard about people using a MAS player with the A600's parallel port
though.
Still, there's software now for burning DVD+RW on Amiga isn't there?
-
Well, as for hardware I've got a cheap P166 that I'm already setting up for the job, I'm building the base system on an actual HD of course, I'll transfer it over after I have purchased a CF card of suitable size and a CF-IDE adaptor. I read about one guy using an Amiga and a parport DSP, but there's no way in hell I'm taking a chance on losing an Amiga via wreck or thief =P
I've got a 40GB HD on an ATA100 PCI controller for MP3s (CF isn't really feasible here for the storage I want), and I currently have a wired Ethernet card (I will be installing an 802.11b card once I've got the system set up, in the hopes of gaining the capability to send songs to the car from the comfort of my home, especially with the remote starter I have installed in my car =P). I've got a Sony headunit, and I plan on having an interface built so as to route the MP3 audio directly into my headunit and through my amp. I'll also be adding the usual LCD (or I might splurge and go VFD) display and keypad above my headunit. I'd like to figure out a way to mount the CDROM somewhere accessible so as to rip CDs in-car, but I don't know how well that would work with IDE, and I'd also imagine it would take a while to encode MP3s on a P166, even with LAME.
-
What is VFD?
I think a P166 would be just too boring for the car.
People would love to see an Amiga I'm sure!
Surely a 512mb would hold a good 10x albums for you, if you made a
SCSI chain of 7x devices you'd get instant loading (zero seek time),
possibly 900x songs!
However I've heard of a new memory card that can hold 1Gb that is only
the size of an M&M...
:-)
-
VFD = Vacuum Flourescent Display. Gives off a much brighter display than LCD, already found in many car stereos.
I'm not so much worried about how 'boring' the actual system will be, because it'll be tucked away either in the trunk or underneath one of the seats. Like I said, I don't want to lose a much more valuable Amiga due to a bad misfortune. I got this P166 for next to nothing, so I'll really only be out the time it took me to build the system should something like that happen. Old PCs are perfect for this type of utilitarian workhorse function. Amigas are destined for far better things, such as watching demos =P
I want as much storage as I can for my player, and I figure 40GB should allow me plenty (I had 20GB of MP3s on my laptop recently for a total of about 4/5 days of music). I also want to be able to set it to shuffle on albums and listen to pretty much random albums from my collection, without even lifting a finger, and even with no delay between albums like with a CD changer. I'm not so worried about access times either, ATA100 will be more than fast enough.
-
Okay, fair point I suppose.
I do think it might pay to have some sort of suspension on the end
device so that shock is not transferred to the hard disk.
Also, unless you keep your windows rolled down it might pay to
consider ventilation on a hot day or ways to keep it cool.
Interesting to see if you could mount some sort of Next/Shuffle
control onto the indicator sticks too, I've seen a few radios that
connect to them.
I still think an Amiga would be fun... surely an A600/A1200 isn't
going to lose you too much money if you crash.
Hope you aren't thinking of entering a rally tournament or something!
:-D :-D
-
A friend of mine is building in an A600 in the glove compartment. :-D