Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: DaveP on February 09, 2003, 10:41:24 AM
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Finally you too can get hold of the VIC - nearly a decade in the making and much discussed and beloved of comp.sys.amiga.misc:
Virtual Interaction Configuration ( VIC ) (http://threeseas.net/)
You need to "log in" to get to the download area.
Now we can all see there is no spoon
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DaveP declared:
Finally you too can get hold of the VIC - nearly a decade in the making and much discussed and beloved of comp.sys.amiga.misc:
:-? Would you like to drop a hint or two for the rest of us? What does V.I.C. do?
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Would you like to drop a hint or two for the rest of us? What does V.I.C. do?
:-D
The VIC is a solution, it is the fundamental tool set of required
functionality. Like the primary colors, where from them you can create the
rest of the spectrum. But the VIC is not as simple as the primary colors
because it deals with a subject matter a bit more complex than colors. In
it's simplest form it is a shell of JUST NINE COMMANDS. Not as complex as
csh (or 4dos in the IBM world) in programming or application creation but
with versatility that far exceeds programs like AWK.
To fully understand the solution, one must understand the problem the
solution addresses. To understand the problem, one must first see the
problem. Most don't fully see the problem but only small facets of it or
symptoms of the problem.
and then some waffle about dishonesty.
thats what the vic was in 1997.. whether it still is the same, i dont know. :-)
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I have NO idea what the VIC *IS*, given that no one
has been able to get its author to successfully explain it without being subject to personal abuse
I doubt anyone will ever know.
The VIC was written originally in AREXX by Tim Rue
and from what I can gather it was supposed to be
a means of pipelining various verbs together ( move,
push etc ) into a system automation language.
In fact, you could consider it a re-invention of
assembly language.
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There is a list of the nine commands at the bottom of this page (http://threeseas.net/mind/). I'm still very confused; it's full of stuff like this:
AI (Alternate Interface) - You start or begin things and stop or end things. In doing so, you change what you are interfacing with
or
SF (Sequence StufF) - You do things a step at a time, even when your doing more than one thing at a time, each you do a step at a time. And the things you do can be or include doing the nine things.
And that is what the author calls the "basics" :-) Sound more like philosophy to me :-?
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It's a program about nothing :crazy: .
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> What does V.I.C. do?
It confuses people.
Kay
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Bodie wrote:
It's a program about nothing :crazy: .
ROFL! :roflmao: :python: :rtfm:
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The nine commands are apparently meant to cover everything that you could ever want to do - and the idea is for programs to write themselves or something like that. Take a look at this thread (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2002-January/083572.html) and prepare to be confused. Everything that Tim Rue writes seems to end up really complex - just look at the main VIC page (http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/vic-contents.html). Oh, and don't forget VIC basics (http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/VIC-basic.html) - some hint of sarcasm in that title perhaps? :-?
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He does have a point though, it is possible to reduce
instruction sets down to a small subset but those commands
(verbs) tend to end up having a gadzillion options and parameters
on them to cope with all the different semantic situations
they have to address.
If you assumed that programming was all about doing
incredibly high level things ( move that data from here
to here ) then you might end up with the VIC. But it is
a naive model - not least because the amount of underlying
abstraction layer coding to achieve it would rely on so
many assumptions it would be near impossible to apply
in all circumstances.
The biggest problem with programming languages is
achieving one that is easy to use, simple to understand
and difficult to phuck up on. Seems to me VIC does not
address any of those.
Meta-programming languages ( those that describe how a program
should work and code-gen the implementation ) have been
around donkeys years but whenever you point this out to
Tim he goes around accusing them of plaigarism ( IBM, Sun,
OMG ), piracy, breach of IP and the person who points it out
of trolling.
But seeings it took nearly a decade to get this far I doubt
that the next upgrade will come any time soon.
Tim, I *think* has good ideas but he is totally unable to
articulate them or even flesh them out.
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Please don't encourage the Rue to come here! That's why I avoid amiga newsgroups...
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Everything that Tim Rue writes seems to end up really complex
Tim is either a genius on an entirely other level than the rest of us, or he is completely insane ;-)
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if he's a genius whats his claim to fame? was he a big C= guy or what?....I dont know anything about the dude.
and why could he be insane?...
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if he's a genius whats his claim to fame? was he a big C= guy or what?....I dont know anything about the dude.
and why could he be insane?...
Try reading through some of the stuff on his website. IMO, most people would wind up mad before they ever understood it.
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mips_proc wrote:
if he's a genius whats his claim to fame?
His claim to fame?V.I.C. Well some might same infamous instead of famous.
I dont know anything about the dude.
Wow you must have never read any C.S.A.* newsgroups over the years!! Heck he is even a regular of ANN and MooBunny.
and why could he be insane?...
Go to the website and read up on the VIC. Then read some of the CSAM archives. You will see what I mean.
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@DaveP
Yes he does indeed have good ideas, usually good ideas that other people had 10 years ago.
The fact that he, may, have come up with them independently, shows some intelligence. But the fact that he doesn't understand that other intelligent people have thought about the same idea before, is part of his arrogance.
And why he wastes so much time.
To his credit he seems to be trying to actually produce something, and not just posting incessantly. The VIC actually represents new amiga software....I guess.
But, yes, his *genius* so far has been unable to produce anything revolutionary or significant...imho, because he spends too much time rewording old problems and calling the subtleties in wording as significant.
But he is also one of the greatest troll kings of all time, and Amiga.org would be priviliged to have Tim Rue as a regular poster.
This is the stuff legends are made of...I still remember c.s.a.m. fondly for all its odd characters, and Tim Rue was one of the oddest.
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Please don't encourage the Rue to come here! That's why I avoid amiga newsgroups...
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For what I understand Rue is both nutty & a genius, but he is only a little part of the reason why I left csa*. The bigger part of that reason is the way csa* reacted and responded to his babbling. Through this csa* became hardly bearable and I certainly won't like to see Amiga.org going the same route. I can stand a little Rue; I can do very well without the overheated reactions towards his writings. But Rue is no saint either.
johan banis
netherlands
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I don't understand why in particular anyone bothers with the c.s.a.advocacy group... all they do is bitch at each other in there endlessly, call each other nazis and liars... I mean, what is the point...
It makes it worse when they have to crosspost to the saner newsgroups, like c.s.a.misc and turn them into little advocacy clones.
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I read through the crap on the website (I'm being generous when I say crap) and have a good idea of what this is about.
It's the most awkward way to "autocode" I've ever seen and I've seen a few. Every one I've seen ends up vanishing because they are impossible to sell
It's poorly documented thanks to Mr. Obscurity who seems to think of coding as art. (I think I've worked with his clone before... always talk about incredible sounding ideas and never finish simple tasks on time because they are seeking perfection)
Is it any surprise that this guy is trying to solve problems in the software industry (something about most software projects being cancelled before they are finished) but if this had been a commercial product it would have been cancelled years ago?
My honest opinion... his tool works in the abstract but I couldn't see where it could replace real world coding and would take longer to do even if it did.
I send out my congratulations on it's completion... may we never hear from it again!
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@johan
You know what...I just realized my post about Tim Rue is one of a personal nature...(and therfore technically a personal attack!)
DRAT! The rules have only been in place a day, and I already violated them.
In my defense, Tim Rue, in my mind is more of a phenomena than an actual person.
Laughs...I would have told you yesterday I would be the last to violate these rules, but I've already done it...well maybe someone will remove the post....
:-o
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Johan wrote:
Please don't encourage the Rue to come here! That's why I avoid amiga newsgroups...
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For what I understand Rue is both nutty & a genius, but he is only a little part of the reason why I left csa*. The bigger part of that reason is the way csa* reacted and responded to his babbling. Through this csa* became hardly bearable and I certainly won't like to see Amiga.org going the same route. I can stand a little Rue; I can do very well without the overheated reactions towards his writings. But Rue is no saint either.
johan banis
netherlands
Tim didn't kill the newsgroups, Steve G killed them.
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@DaveP:
I have not followed this issue very much over the years (although I remember reading Tim Rue's posts when I was still on csam), but it is actually interesting. I think your words describe the phenomenon quite well.
greetings,
dirigent
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Tim didn't kill the newsgroups, Steve G killed them.
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Though I don't quite remember Steve G, I think there were more who can be held responsible for making csa* a horrible place. And though Tim Rue had his share in violating rules of normal behaviour I don't hold him responsible for "killing" csa*. Nutty as he may be.
johan banis
netherlands
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> Though I don't quite remember Steve G...
:-o :-o :-o
Google search for Author=SG in comp.sys.amiga.* (http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_ugroup=comp.sys.amiga.*&as_uauthors=sg&lr=&num=100&hl=en)
[color=CC0000]39100 posts![/color]
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Google search for Author=SG in comp.sys.amiga.*
Ah yes, SG. That sounds (too) familiar...
johan banis
netherlands
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Who was the guy who was so rabidly anti Bernie?