Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: srg86 on September 03, 2004, 01:35:17 PM
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Hi
I'm getting an A1200 soon and all I have are SVGA monitors. There is a guy selling an "AMIVGA" thing but a past thread on this forum said it was rubbish.
Anyway what scan doubler would you all recommend?
thanks
srg
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I recommend :
http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl?dir=gfx#scanmagicint
I prefer this internal Scandoubler/FF above
an external one. If you use an external, you will
see tiny vertical stripes on an egal background.
I really hate that! Because you can't get rid of it.
You can fine-adjust with the so called "potentiometer",
but only to a certain degree. That really sucks.
So, go for the internal "ScanMagic".
:-D
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I've heard that they can get really hot.
srg
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The do get fairly hot (the glue from a gluegun that holds the cables in place on my got soft), but I also have a 2Gb 2.5" IBM drive right on top of that so heat from that is added aswell. Never had any problems with the heat though and I do recommend them.
The external ones get even hotter and needs mods for airflow to keep them happy.
AMIVGA (http://www.amiga-hardware.com/amivga.html) apart from being crapp also is only for ECS not AGA so it won't work with your A1200.
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WOW those scanmagic's are expensive! ~£90!
hmm It'll have to wait
srg
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Hi,
Recently I aquired one of those DCE internal scandoubler/flickerfixers.
It is a pcb that is clipped over Lisa.
The thing works great. The smallest chip on the pcb does get rather hot.
I'm in the progress of installing it in my desktop A1200.
Next week I'll be adding passive cooling to the small hot chip. The harddisk will be moved to the right. I'm modifying the tinware to make all this possible.
Anyway to make a story short;
An internal Scandoubler/Flicker fixer is difficult (and a lot of work) to install proparly.
If you are not a Do It Yourself (DIY) man I would not recommend it. If you are, an internal is definatly the best (matter of opinion). If you're not try to get an external one. An external can be used on other miggy's too that might join your fleet in the future.
Good luck.
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Ehm.. hard to install an internal scandoubler? You must be kidding me right? I meen.. it's snapp on 2 sockets over chips on the mother board and you're done basicly. Sure mounting the VGA port nicely on the Amiga can be tricky but apart from that it's a piece of cake.
About the price... it's steap if you buy it new but you can probably find one second hand for like 40$ or less.
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Brian wrote:
About the price... it's steap if you buy it new but you can probably find one second hand for like 40$ or less.
I've seen them being sold for 80/90EUR on eBay...
For that price you can buy a new one!
:-D
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@Brain
No I'm not kidding. But perhaps you found an easier way.
I need to relocate my hardrive because it does not seem to fit at it's original location. This can be very tricky. Also I want the original tinware inside to remain as intact as possible.
When I succeed I'll post some pictures of the interiour of my machine.
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(O\_|_/O) <- this is supposed to look like the front of my beetle
Heh, it does look like the front of a beetle!
:-)
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I have the Scandex:
http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo.pl?id=scandex
This works great on the A500/1000/600/1200, but oddly does not work right on the 4000. (I get washed out video)
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@Doppie1200
Correct... the harddrive relocation could be a hassel. I thought of that but ended up creating my own HD cradle instead with longer legs so the scandoubler would fit underneath (about 15mins of aluminium cutting and sawing), though this will probably only work with a bit slimmer than original Amiga 2.5" disks as it get lifted up closer to the keyboard.
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I see you guys have problems fitting the HDD after installing the SC/FF.
Take a look here:
http://www.amiga600.de/Placing%20harddrive.htm
I know this is about an A600, but the HDD will probably
also fit on this place in an A1200. But you will have to
remove the tinware.
I did it as well in my A600/030. Until a month ago
that is. Then I installed an CompactFlash/IDE-adapter
with an Sandisk 256MB UltraII-card. If you are installing
a CF2IDE adapter, then you can keep the tinware intact!
It also has other great benefits:
*It handles the CF-card just as a normal HDD.
*It uses much less power
*No noise
*It's not getting overheated
:-D
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I simply attached my HD to the existing RF shield with double sided tape. It is very secure.
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Don't forget the 3m velcro strips. I've assembled many a 1200 with these retaining newer 44pin hd's. Newer, smaller drives don't usually line up with the hd-bracket screw holes.
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http://www.amiga.org/gallery/images/1043/small/1_1291.jpg
Surly there's a better place to put it than under the hard drive, is that the only place for those hot chips??
srg
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@srg
It has to go there. It attaches to the Alice and Lisa chips.
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But couldn't the main PCB be moved a bit firther to the right, out of the way of the hard drive? The wires look like they'll reach.
srg
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@all:
Has'nt anyone noticed that the internal DCE flickerfixers and the CV64/3D scandoubler uses just 4-bits per colour on the green and blue channel and only the red channel uses 8-bits? Try colouring a large portion of the screen (using ntsc or pal ofcourse) in a aga-aware paint-package as Brilliance or DPaint5, select that colour in the palette-editor and play around some with the red, green and blue sliders...
/Patrik
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@Patrik
So it's really only any use with pre AGA screenmodes? :lol:
If you (for whatever insane reason) absolutely had to use a 4/4/8 format, surely you'd choose 8 bits for green?
RGB 8:4:4? What a pointless design!
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@srg
No. On the bottom of the pcb is a socket that attaches to the chip. You can not move it.
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IC, does the RF shielding need removal or modification (is that shield really needed?) and does the hard drive fit neatly over it.
Also, any way of cooling it if necessary?
thanks
srg
P.S I just don't like the idea of ruining the machine (if the thing gets too hot), call it nerves. :-(
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I also have an internal DCE scandoubler/flickerfixer in my 1200, complete with a 4 GB 2.5" harddisk. It's a bit of a hack to fit the harddrive as the normal cradle does not fit anymore after you place the flickerfixer: the legs are to short and holes of the cradle don't match the harddisk's either. On top of that, I had to remove the upper shielding. Apart from that, the whole setup functions reliably and doesn't suffer from overheating.
The image is very crisp on my 15" Compaq screen, taking in mind that is 'only' a 50 Hz signal ofcourse. I haven't noticed any side effects from removing the shielding of my A1200.
BTW, although it has been mentioned before in this thread: it is _not_ possible to fit the scandoubler somewhere else in your 1200 as it has to be placed directly on top of Alice.
All in all, I am very satisfied with the unit. The flickerfixer itself easily snaps in, replacing the harddrive is not hard either (I am _not_ a hardwarehacker), cutting, slicing and soldering is not necessary and you only have to remove the shielding.
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Jiffy wrote:
I also have an internal DCE scandoubler/flickerfixer in my 1200, complete with a 4 GB 2.5" harddisk. It's a bit of a hack to fit the harddrive as the normal cradle does not fit anymore after you place the flickerfixer: the legs are to short and holes of the cradle don't match the harddisk's either. On top of that, I had to remove the upper shielding. Apart from that, the whole setup functions reliably and doesn't suffer from overheating.
The image is very crisp on my 15" Compaq screen, taking in mind that is 'only' a 50 Hz signal ofcourse. I haven't noticed any side effects from removing the shielding of my A1200.
BTW, although it has been mentioned before in this thread: it is _not_ possible to fit the scandoubler somewhere else in your 1200 as it has to be placed directly on top of Alice.
All in all, I am very satisfied with the unit. The flickerfixer itself easily snaps in, replacing the harddrive is not hard either (I am _not_ a hardwarehacker), cutting, slicing and soldering is not necessary and you only have to remove the shielding.
50Hz hmmm.
On my PC, I see flicker at 85Hz refresh rate on plain white. This is enough to cause me eye strain. I run my PC monitor at 100Hz.
I do have one 1989 VGA 14" VGA monitor that afaik is single sync (it has black border arround the outside of the screen so the picture doesn't fill it). at 60Hz I don't see flicker, strange.
Could this cause me problems with scandoubled Amigas on PC monitors.
srg
P.S I don't have this flicker problem in TFT's of course (although I have none of those appart from ny laptop).
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Jiffy wrote:
I also have an internal DCE scandoubler/flickerfixer in my 1200, complete with a 4 GB 2.5" harddisk. It's a bit of a hack to fit the harddrive as the normal cradle does not fit anymore after you place the flickerfixer: the legs are to short and holes of the cradle don't match the harddisk's either. On top of that, I had to remove the upper shielding. Apart from that, the whole setup functions reliably and doesn't suffer from overheating.
The image is very crisp on my 15" Compaq screen, taking in mind that is 'only' a 50 Hz signal ofcourse. I haven't noticed any side effects from removing the shielding of my A1200.
BTW, although it has been mentioned before in this thread: it is _not_ possible to fit the scandoubler somewhere else in your 1200 as it has to be placed directly on top of Alice.
All in all, I am very satisfied with the unit. The flickerfixer itself easily snaps in, replacing the harddrive is not hard either (I am _not_ a hardwarehacker), cutting, slicing and soldering is not necessary and you only have to remove the shielding.
(http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ami1200_3_sm.jpg)
Also, those of you with it fitted it in Desktop A1200s, I was wondering where you put the VGA connector. Have you made a hole for it above the other ports, or possibly left it dangling on it's lead outside the case. I was also wondering about that little plate on the left hand side of this image (it would be beneith the floppy drive), would the lead reach to mount the vga connector in that? Looking at A1200 motherboard pics, it would seem that it's unused.
thanks very much
srg
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I removed the cap displayed on the far left of your photo.
An old VGA card was sacrificed and I modified the PCI bracket so it would fit nicely.
I can take photo's of it if you like and email them to you.
(or post pictures here if interest exists)
Anyway I got that idea from anouther thread about this which I started. Maybe you can read more about it there.
Avoid cutting up the plastic outer cast. It wil never turn out to be as straight as you imagine it to become when you start
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That would be great if possible, I really want to use a scan doubler as I don't want to use blurry TVs or have knackered 1084s or 1438s as it's cluttered with PC monitors as it is.
srg
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hehe, I'll take some pictures tomorrow.
BTW, beware that a modern vga is very very very sharp. It makes games look pretty ugly sometimes. That is because some effects relying on the blurry 1084 screen do not work anymore. Looks really like those old 320x200 games on PC used to look.
But I love the 640x512 flickerfree desktop :-o
Haven't played around with it enough cause my mod is not finished. Harddisk is still not relocated.
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I think it's mainly due to the lack of interlaced screens, that games look bad with flicker fixers.
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Hi,
I uploaded three photo's. The mod I'm doing has progressed a little further than is displayed by the photo's. A passive cooler has been glued on the small ic in the lower right corner (used special thermo glue). The tinware has been adapted to fit nicely again and the harddisk bracket has been relocated.
All I need is to drill holes for the harddisk in the harddisk bracket and tinware. Then I'm done.
The photo's do not seem to appear yet. I quess the have to go by the moderators or something.
@x56h34
I think games look bad cause of the incredible dot pitch of modern crt's and the scanlines gone missing :-o
Find a poor quality vga and it all look 1084 again.
I usually take of my glasses.
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With carefull measuring and a good modeling knife I would have thought placing it into the plasic cap could be possible (don't have a hot glue gun). Is the plastic quite thick though?
Anyway, pictures of the passive heatsync and new hard drive location would be great.
BTW are these totally nesseccary?
Anyway, if games look blurry, why not just play them on a TV (that may be what I'll do). It'll be interesting to see workbench in devastatingly sharp pictures :-)
Anyway, just think how sharp LCDs are!! :-o
Oh another thing, will the normal Amiga RGB port still work properly, even with a vga monitor connected to the can doubler at the same time.
srg
P.S. I'm not much of a modder.
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Hi,
I dont think the heatsink is really needed. Although the chip is getting very hot and is managing to warm up my heatsink pretty good. But alot of people are using these devices without one. I choose to release the straign on the chip. First I downloaded the datasheet which states the chip brakes down at a junction temprature of 150 degree (C). So I knew it would be safe to skip the heatsink. Hoewver I choose against it in an attempt to lenghthen its life.
When you can still toutch the chip without burning you can be sure the junction temprature is below the stated maximum. It's beyond the scope of this reply to explain junction temprature and I'm not the best person to explain it to you.
I'll post the pics of my finished mods tomorrow. The photo's are already taken but I am in no mood to get them off my camera right now ;)
As for cutting the case. It is a matter of opinion and guts I guess. I would avoid it at any cost since it will never look as straight as something out of the factory.
As for hot glue guns. I got mine for a dime at a local DIY store. Take a look around. You need no military spec. glue gun to do this kind of project ;)
BTW This is my first message posted with a real A1200 by me on amiga.org. That scandoubler is working great!
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First things's first - An Amiga outputs 15Khz horizontal frequency to be compatible with a TV.
A scandoubler willdouble 15Khz to make 30Khz. PCs use 31Khz.
This means you will have to get a `Multisync' monitor or one with good range of frequency such as an NEC or Philips.
One with digital memories for different screenmodes would be very handy, maybe 10x different `channel's so you can play games that don't make use of overscan.
Another thing you need to remember is that if you have anything but an A1200 you can't use an internal scandoubler. How do you think a CD32 gets by? I reccomend everyone get an external Scandoubler WITH integrated flicker-fixer so that it can be easily swapped between Amigas.
I also reccomend you switch to NTSC as my external EZ-VGA Plus (From Eyetech) gives me faint vertical lines in 50Hz mode and it's quite flickery and dark compared to NTSC @ 60Hz. I got the impression too that 50Hz was giving me some sort of 8-bit colour limit as opposed to HAM8's 19-bit (?)...
My unit does get hot, particularly in the summer but it should survive most extremes of heat. Putting a fan on is optional but a good idea Doppie.
:-)
You can use an Amiga without a scandoubler/FF if you put the Multisync-Productivity driver in Devs/Monitors/ and since it doesn't use video signals like native modes you get a small, crisper mouse pointer. Albeit at the expense of ChipRAM slowdown.
One other thing to remember is that an external Scandoubler/FlickerFixer will hog the 23-pin video port so you may not be able to use a genlock. An internal one would provide it's own extra port.
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Hyperspeed wrote:
First things's first - An Amiga outputs 15Khz horizontal frequency to be compatible with a TV.
A scandoubler willdouble 15Khz to make 30Khz. PCs use 31Khz.
This means you will have to get a `Multisync' monitor or one with good range of frequency such as an NEC or Philips.
One with digital memories for different screenmodes would be very handy, maybe 10x different `channel's so you can play games that don't make use of overscan.
Another thing you need to remember is that if you have anything but an A1200 you can't use an internal scandoubler. How do you think a CD32 gets by? I reccomend everyone get an external Scandoubler WITH integrated flicker-fixer so that it can be easily swapped between Amigas.
I also reccomend you switch to NTSC as my external EZ-VGA Plus (From Eyetech) gives me faint vertical lines in 50Hz mode and it's quite flickery and dark compared to NTSC @ 60Hz. I got the impression too that 50Hz was giving me some sort of 8-bit colour limit as opposed to HAM8's 19-bit (?)...
My unit does get hot, particularly in the summer but it should survive most extremes of heat. Putting a fan on is optional but a good idea Doppie.
:-)
You can use an Amiga without a scandoubler/FF if you put the Multisync-Productivity driver in Devs/Monitors/ and since it doesn't use video signals like native modes you get a small, crisper mouse pointer. Albeit at the expense of ChipRAM slowdown.
One other thing to remember is that an external Scandoubler/FlickerFixer will hog the 23-pin video port so you may not be able to use a genlock. An internal one would provide it's own extra port.
hmm
PAL = 15.6KHz * 2 = 31.2KHz
NTSC = 15.75KHz * 2 = 31.5KHz
Also my monitors will go as low as 30KHz so it's not too much of a problem.
The scanmagic/flickermagic T will work with A1200 and A4000. As the only Amigas I'd ever want to get are the A1200, A3000 and A4000 this should also not be too much of a prob (the A3000 has built in scandoubling as well as flicker fixing right?).
I also reccomend you switch to NTSC as my external EZ-VGA Plus (From Eyetech) gives me faint vertical lines in 50Hz mode and it's quite flickery and dark compared to NTSC @ 60Hz. I got the impression too that 50Hz was giving me some sort of 8-bit colour limit as opposed to HAM8's 19-bit (?)...
I think this is similar to k-disk's argument for not using external flicker fixers.
Anyway I'll keep what you said in mind :-)
@Doppie1200
Another possibly idea is to drill a small discrete hole in the case next and in the bent part of the PCI bracket, then use a small nut and bolt, in theory to sould be harly noticable.
srg
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Ahhh... good point.
But you are still cutting it fine, on the borderline because you are
trying to get these VGA monitors down to 50Hz vertical refresh.
For example, I bought 2x NEC monitors of exactly the same batch and
model number. One had vertical roll syndrome and the other was fine.
Sometimes you can just miss the threshhold of luck!
:-D :-D
I wonder if an LCD would accept a scandoubled NTSC 60Hz screen at
640×480 overscan, thus keeping to the 1:1 optimum for these panels'
input resolution.
If a panel were designed for 1280x960 or 640x480 then NTSC would be
the best all-rounder for an AGA Amiga to get an LCD.
Multiscan would just slow you down and wouldn't have as high a refresh
rate as NTSC.
:-)
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Hi all,
I posted the pictures of my mod. They should appear when the moderator clears them of all offensive language :lol:
Anyway I have a stock 17" XGA with OSD and stuff. It works really nice on 49.9 Hz. Perhaps I lucked out.
It is true that VGA is supposed to be 60 Hz.
When I get around to it I will try my 15" TFT. But since it is only 1024x768 I doubt it will get the amiga screen good on the display. The Amiga screen is 640+overscan by 512+overscan. I doubt this will be a multiple of 1024x768.
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On paper, both my 17" and my 15" SVGA monitors will sync down to 30KHz and 50Hz, we'll see what s*d's law has to say about it.
I also have a VGA monitor from Dec 1989 although I doubt that'll work.
BTW, I never understood the term overscan.
srg
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I can see the pictures now and their very professional looking, infact if I didn't know better, I'd think they all looked like that out of the factory.
Anyway, now I know that the scandoubler will fit under the tinware, I will probably just fit it, replace the tinware and leave the hard drive where it is, unless the heat causes any stability troubles. (Has anyone had any stability trobles because of heat of this thing?
srg
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Thanks! I'm a bit proud of it myself.
The scandoubler does fit under the tinware. The tallest chip touches the tinware though. I checked if it would short anything out but it wouldn't. However you cannot place the harddrive and the tinware on top of the scandoubler. That will not fit. Perhaps leaving off the tinware would make it fit.
As for instability. I'm having alot of instability. Freezes, crashes or sudden reboots.
Since my previous A1200 has the same trouble I'm suspecting the fastram on my accelerator.
If the trouble I'm having is related to the heat from the scandoubler I'll keep you all posted.
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IC
The modifacations to move the hard drive - did all you do was add new holes in the tinware (as well as the caddy legs), nothin g on the motherboard?
srg
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The motherboard is untouched.
Extra slids were cut to let the shortened legs through. The legs where shortened to about one millimeter. I glued a strut under the tinware that rest on the motherboard. This provides extra strength. The tinware would bend towards the motherboard since the slids weakend it and it is not designed to carry the weight of the harddrive.
The extra holes were cut so a modern drive can be fitted.
These drives have screws on the front and back rather than in the middle. If you use an old drive you need no extra holes since the screws will be where the clock port expantion is to be. I would recommend to INSULATE the clockport header since the old screw holes are directly above the header. The head of the screw might short your address/databus sending another amiga to the recyclers.
[EDIT] The stability problems the A1200 had were not related to the mod. It was software related.
Take care!
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If you (for whatever insane reason) absolutely had to use a 4/4/8 format, surely you'd choose 8 bits for green?
Yes, this is the reason for the rough gradiends and "slightly off" areas of solid colours on an AGA Amiga. Internal ones don't have this problem as they don't need to redigitise the analogue output. As to why it's 8:4:4, I've no idea... Does seem pretty odd alright...
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@Daedalus
So only external scandoublers have this 8:4:4 colour limit? I can't
say I notice it in NTSC but I did in PAL mode. I also got noticeable
vertical lines down the screen no matter how much I adjusted the
potentiometer on the back.
My picture quality is equivalent to S-VHS I'd say, not quite RGB as on
dotted areas I notice slight signal fuzziness but the whole picture is
crisp, vibrant and full colour with my EZ-VGA Plus in NTSC 60Hz.
If you're going to use your Amiga solely on a VGA monitor there's no
reason to stick with PAL anymore anyway.
I use a 724x482 Overscan screen which gives me an extra 84x82 pixels!
:-D
Can anyone remember the name of that PD program for creating custom
screenmodes? I wonder if it works with OCS/ECS/AGA so that Doppie can
make a custom 512x384 or 1024x768 screenmode to work at his LCD's
optimum resolution.
If LCD has no visible refresh flicker then there can't be much
harm in sacrificing refresh to get a few more pixels out of your
custom chips right?
:-)
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50Hz hmmm.
On my PC, I see flicker at 85Hz refresh rate on plain white. This is enough to cause me eye strain. I run my PC monitor at 100Hz.
I do have one 1989 VGA 14" VGA monitor that afaik is single sync (it has black border arround the outside of the screen so the picture doesn't fill it). at 60Hz I don't see flicker, strange.
Could this cause me problems with scandoubled Amigas on PC monitors.
Single sync doesn't have much to do with the monitor having a black border; that's just down to it being an old, "goldfish bowl" type tube :-) Whether you see flicker or not is down to the phosphors used in the monitor. They glow for a certain length of time as the beam passes over them. The problem is that you can't change their "decay rate", so if you want a monitor capable of doing 120Hz, it's gonna look flickery at 60Hz cos if it didn't, every 2nd pass of the beam would be redundant (if that makes sense :-? ) So, a monitor from 1989 will only be made for 60Hz or so, and so will have much slower decaying phosphors than your new monitor, hence it doesn't flicker.
So, finally, it's nothing really to do with the differences between an Amiga and a PC's video output...
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Hyperspeed wrote:
@Daedalus
So only external scandoublers have this 8:4:4 colour limit? I can't
say I notice it in NTSC but I did in PAL mode. I also got noticeable
vertical lines down the screen no matter how much I adjusted the
potentiometer on the back.
AFAIK, I don't have that trouble with my internal one on my 1200, but I do know the external ones use an extra A/D stage, and it's that that isn't capable of reproducing the full AGA palette. That would add significant cost to the device, and for the majority of cases isn't required.
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srg86 wrote:
50Hz hmmm.
On my PC, I see flicker at 85Hz refresh rate on plain white. This is enough to cause me eye strain. I run my PC monitor at 100Hz.
I do have one 1989 VGA 14" VGA monitor that afaik is single sync (it has black border arround the outside of the screen so the picture doesn't fill it). at 60Hz I don't see flicker, strange.
Could this cause me problems with scandoubled Amigas on PC monitors.
Flicker still can be seen at 50 Hz on my Amiga 1200. The more recent your CRT, the more you will notice the flicker: old CRTs were made for 60 Hz and therefor had slow decaying phosphor. Current CRTs are often made for 100 Hz or more and thus use much faster decaying phosphor. The netresult is that on the latter screen, flicker will be (much) more noticable when running it @ 50 Hz compared to the older screen designed for 60 Hz operation. Nevertheless, I find my internal flickerfixer in combination with my Compaq V50 15" CRT a perfectly acceptable solution: no more 'black lines' in non-interlaced resolutions, better colours and a very usable high-res/interlaced resolution (I have my workbench set to high-res/interlaced with full overscan).
The 50Hz flicker is ofcourse still noticable: my PC (with 19" Iiyama and Matrox G550) ofcourse has a (much) stabler picture.
If you don't like a pc screen @ 85 Hz then you won't like an Amiga workbench @ 50 Hz. Then again, a high-res interlaced screen @ 50 Hz on a SVGA CRT is _much_ nicer to look at than a med-res non-interlaced screen @ 50 Hz on a 1084... :-D
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srg86 wrote:
Also, those of you with it fitted it in Desktop A1200s, I was wondering where you put the VGA connector. Have you made a hole for it above the other ports, or possibly left it dangling on it's lead outside the case.
It connects through a small flatcable to the RGB video out of my Amiga 1200 (it is designed to fit here). To be honest, I never questioned its position and thus never wondered if it would work without it being connected to the Amiga's RGB port. Certainly something worth trying, though.
I was also wondering about that little plate on the left hand side of this image (it would be beneith the floppy drive), would the lead reach to mount the vga connector in that? Looking at A1200 motherboard pics, it would seem that it's unused.
Normally, it is indeed unused. The Blizzard SCSI card uses it for the external SCSI connector and there is/are also soundcard(s) which use it.
It would most likely not be ideal to use it for the flickerfixer's VGA connector as the internal flatcable would have to be replaced by a much longer one and I don't know if that would have a nice effect on imagequality...
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Daedalus:
The internal DCE ones as well as the CV64/3D scandoubler does have the 8:4:4 limitation. The reason for this limitation is that it only needs 2/3 as wide/much buffer-memory that way (16-bits wide for 8:4:4 instead of 24-bits wide for 8:8:8).
/Patrik
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It connects through a small flatcable to the RGB video out of my Amiga 1200 (it is designed to fit here). To be honest, I never questioned its position and thus never wondered if it would work without it being connected to the Amiga's RGB port. Certainly something worth trying, though.
That is with a desktop version of the flicker fixer. The tower version does not connect to the RGB port. The flatcable leads to a VGA connector. You can see this on the pictures I posted.
Normally, it is indeed unused. The Blizzard SCSI card uses it for the external SCSI connector and there is/are also soundcard(s) which use it.
It would most likely not be ideal to use it for the flickerfixer's VGA connector as the internal flatcable would have to be replaced by a much longer one and I don't know if that would have a nice effect on imagequality...
The default cable delivered with the tower version is long enough to reach it. Since amiga is not capable of very high dot clocks the signal does not suffer. At least I did not notice anything.
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I can't believe this!
So even DCE were selling these things knowing they were cut down and
saving themselves extra buffer chips? When I bought mine I complained
that I was getting 8-Bit colour but the shop just ignored me and told
me to live with it.
I'm curious about NTSC though, PAL was pretty rough but I seem to be
getting perfect display from NTSC/PAL 60Hz. I do notice a slight
banding on smoothe gradiants but I put this down to 19-bit HAM8 as
opposed to 24-Bit True-Colour.
So are you sure even the INTERNAL scandoublers/flicker-fixers were
limited to 8:4:4?
:-(
What about the Picasso-IV, I know Amiga Format rated that much more
highly than the CyberVision 64/3D's flicker fixing ability.
-
Sadly it is true. I checked it by connecting both my 1084 and svga. The copper sky on xtr-racing is different.
If the DCE flicker fixer would use 16 bits colour that would explain the effect. It would not be able to mix all the colours needed to produce the gradient.
So; after this thread I can summerize this about an internal scandoubler:
Minus:
-Could be a hassle to fit inside
-Does not reproduce all AGA colours (16 bit)
-Has a tendancy to get hot
Plus:
+Interlaced modes are rock solid
+Use of most VGA monitors (which has alot of advantages on its own)
+Access to more screen modes (15..31kHz)
Sure this list can be enlarged. Maybe this can turn into a FAQ or something.
-
Doppie1200 wrote:
So; after this thread I can summerize this about an internal scandoubler:
Minus:
-Could be a hassle to fit inside
All is relative, ofcourse. My internal scandoubler/flickerfixer was easy to fit in my desktop A1200, when you take in mind the upper shielding had to be removed and the harddisks cradle also didn't fit. Nothing a small piece of cardboard couldn't fix... ;-)
-Has a tendancy to get hot
Seems not to be a big problem. The chips on the flickerfixer are _very_ tolerant to high temperatures. Apart from that, I have a 2.5" 4 GB harddisk put on top of the flickerfixer and there's only a slight increase in temperature on the outside of my A1200 at the spot where both harddisk and flickerfixer are placed. My Blizzard 1260 is much more of a heatsource.
Plus:
+Interlaced modes are rock solid
'Rock solid' as in 'compared to normal interlaced modes', ofcourse. The flickerfixed image is still only 50 Hz (PAL) and a slight flicker can therefor still be noticed. The better your CRT, the better it will be noticed.
All in all, I am very satisfied with the unit:
- if you're not to shy to open up your A1200, it's an easy fit;
- much improved imagequality;
- no heatingproblems;
- you can use a standard (S)VGA CRT.
BTW: is there anyone with any experience connecting a TFT to a flickerfixer? I like the idea of connecting one to my A1200, but don't have one handy to test the result. I know, high-res interlaced doesn't compare to well to a TFT's native resolution and most TFTs prefer at least 60 Hz. But I still would like to know... :-)
-
Right, I've got my Amiga and my dad and I have fitted the internal scandoubler in a similar fashion to Doppie1200. First of all PAL modes are completely fine. I can't test the different screen modes yet because the prefs didn't work on the existing hard disk installation which was almost trashed anyway. I can't reinstall workbench because the disks are foobar'ed and won't even boot. Other disk are the same untill formatting. I've ordered another set of disks to use but if I have troubles with these then the drive could be out of calibration (need new drive).
Anyway, through the scan doubler, in a workbench screen (booted from HDIntall disk) I'm finding that Whites are slighly off, they have a slight yellowish tinge to them. Could this be because of the reduced colour pallette, is it because of the relative darkness of shadow mask monitors? Or is there something I've done wrong?
srg
-
Doppie1200 wrote:
Sadly it is true. I checked it by connecting both my 1084 and svga. The copper sky on xtr-racing is different.
If the DCE flicker fixer would use 16 bits colour that would explain the effect. It would not be able to mix all the colours needed to produce the gradient.
So; after this thread I can summerize this about an internal scandoubler:
Minus:
-Could be a hassle to fit inside
-Does not reproduce all AGA colours (16 bit)
-Has a tendancy to get hot
Plus:
+Interlaced modes are rock solid
+Use of most VGA monitors (which has alot of advantages on its own)
+Access to more screen modes (15..31kHz)
Sure this list can be enlarged. Maybe this can turn into a FAQ or something.
Mainly because of this minus:
-Does not reproduce all AGA colours (16 bit)
I've decided to sell my DCE internal flicker fixer, I was thinking in the range of about £50.
BTW With my Doppie1200 like A1200 mod, it didn't get that hot at all.
srg
-
Well, maybe I have one that likes to get hot then :lol:
Anyway I feel better about the heatsink.
The 16 bit limitation does not bother me at all. It is hardly noticable in most games. The other improvements are more impotant to me. But that is a matter of opinion.
Good luck.
-
Well, any pre aga games will look just fine with 4-bits per gun anyway.
I still think RGB 844 was completely the lamest choice imagimable. They really should have used some sort of proper 16 bit 5:6:5, or if such quantization was not possible then at least give 8 bits to green.
-
That was a good summary Doppie.
:-)
I was always suspicious about my colour palette in relation to 24-Bit
but it doesn't make much difference between 16-Bit and 19-Bit HAM8.
The reduction was more noticeable in PAL 50Hz than in PAL 60Hz for
some reason though.
So if the internal scandoublers have the same limit with colours as
external, what exactly are the benefits of an internal scandoubler?
1)Hassle to open up the Amiga
2)Can't use it on different machines like CD32/CDTV
3)Can't swap it between your Amigas in emergency
4)Could heat up your motherboard and hard disk
Why not the easy plug-in external one? In PAL 60Hz (/NTSC) you lose
next to no quality at all.
The only downers about the external one are:
1)Protrudes 3" from 23-pin port
2)Blocks 23-pin from RGB Scart/Genlock/Grafitti card
3)Slight loss of picture quality (only noticeable on mesh patterns)
:-)
Would it be fair to say then, that the Picasso-IV is the SUPREME
scandoubler/flicker-fixer with full 24-bit pass-thru of AGA in HAM8?
-
Thanks, but as others say it is all relative. If you don't mind a DIY project, or if you cut some corners an internal is no hassle to install.
Anyway what benefits are left. The biggest benefit would be the solid conversion. It takes the digital signal from the chip.
The two biggest flaws identified are indeed colour limitation and inflexibility. You cannot hook it up to your A600. As for heat, I seem to be the only one seeing the need for the heatsink :-P.
If I could get an external one I still would. Not as replacement for the one I just built in but for my other miggy's (A500 and A600).
I think this thread has become very resourcefull for someone wanting to know something about scandoublers. We should rename it to 'all you ever wanted to know about scandoublers but was afraid to ask'-thread :lol:
-
Doppie1200 wrote:
Anyway what benefits are left. The biggest benefit would be the solid conversion. It takes the digital signal from the chip.
This for me is a big pro: I've seen the image on several internal and external flickerfixers for different types of Amigas during time and I find my current one to have a nice & stable picture. Much better compared to, for example, my Multivision 500 of the early nineties...
The two biggest flaws identified are indeed colour limitation and inflexibility. You cannot hook it up to your A600.
Indeed. Again, this is personal. In practice, I hardly notice the colourlimitation (I come from the A500-era, so the 8:4:4 is still quite an improvement).
As for inflexibility: I prefer to put my computersystems together and leave them like that. My other Amiga is a 2000 and I'm not going to rip that one apart to take out, for example, my X-Surf II or my Multivision 2000* just because I need it on another Amiga...
*which currently is not being used as I 'only' have a 1084 to connect to my 2000.
I think this thread has become very resourcefull for someone wanting to know something about scandoublers. We should rename it to 'all you ever wanted to know about scandoublers but was afraid to ask'-thread :lol:
:-D
-
Excellent thread guys!
All posts here refer to the the DCE Internal Flicker Fixer. I am considering buying the Eyetech one. Is this identical to the DCE? Not according to some old reviews I dug up.
Would this also suffer from the 16bit limitation?
-
I never saw this 16bit dce thread... I got a DCE flickermagic about a week ago, and it looks fine... very clear, haven't noticed the colors though... but it still beats the native flicker screenmodes
-
The scandoubler I refer to is an Eyetech EZ-VGA Plus
scandoubler/flicker-fixer.
It's a metal case that's about 4 inches long and half inch thick with
a bit of paper on top for the logo.
This one has a red and green light to signify pass-thru of 31Khz modes
and a green to show it's scandoubling/flicker-fixing 15Khz modes.
The Eyetech one has a potentiometer screw on the back to tune exactly
to your Amigas clock signal. This may have deferred from motherboard
revisions.
I think it would appear that the internal scandoubler would offer the
best quality, but still inferior in colour rendering to the
Picasso-IV's which I assume to be full 24-Bit.
I must say again though, if you use your external one in NTSC or PAL
60Hz you won't notice it from 24-Bit RGB. Just give it a minute to
warm up on a cold day.
:-D
-
keropi wrote:
I never saw this 16bit dce thread... I got a DCE flickermagic about a week ago, and it looks fine... very clear, haven't noticed the colors though... but it still beats the native flicker screenmodes
To see the effect, create 3 256 colour images in deluxe paint AGA, one showing a gradient from black to maximum red (ie a full palette spread), one showing the gradient from black to maximum green and one showing the gradient from black to maximum blue. What you should observe is that the green and blue suffer quantization gradients where the 8-bit resolution is axed down to 4 bits. Only the red will show a smooth, unbroken gradient.
-
Wow, I tried that just now...
I use an Eyetech EZ-VGA Plus (3" long metal box on A1200 video port)
I created a 256-colour range from left to right in Deluxe Paint 5 and
it appears that my Scandoubler/Flicker-Fixer displays twice as many
tones in green as it does in red/blue. You have to turn off dithering
(Right-click the paint can/fill-tool in Deluxe Paint) so that
individual colours are seen as bars and not blended into each other.
Would this be RGB=4/8/4?
If this is correct then each increment should be just 3x pixels
across whereas my colour increments are closer to 33x pixels across in
red/blue!
What I mean is:
724(horizontal res) ÷ 22(colour increments) = 33(pixels per increment)
No wonder my HAM8 looks grittier than it should be! HAM8 theoretically
should be 4x smoother than 16-bit graphics since it's 256,000 colours
and 16-bit is 65,536.
If 4-bit is 16 colours then 16x256x16 (RGB 4-bit/8-bit/4-bit) =
65,536. This means that the power of AGA HAM8 is being degraded to
16-Bit PC quality as opposed to 19-Bit Amiga quality. We're
effectively getting only twice the Super-NES colour palette...
Grrrrr!
I would say that this is a serious breach of Amiga users trust that
years after purchase we are finding out we were sold scandoublers with
inferior hardware (so the manufacturers could save a few bucks).
Interesting to know what other people see in this experiment, be it on
DCE/Eyetech or Cybervision/Picasso!
:-(
-
Well 8/4/4 would imply red has 16x the resolution of either of the other two. Each bit per gun doubles the range of values it has.
I suggest you try the trick using a vertical gradient on a 256 pixel tall screen if possible - a horizontal gradient will always have some bleed in it. Turn off dithering also. If you have a genuine 8-bit gun colour, a 256 tall gradient will have a unique colour every line giving a smooth gradient. If you have 4-bit, it will be approximately 16 bands you will see.
If you see that green has 64 bands and that red and blue each have 32 it suggest an RGB 565 arrangement which is far more sensible (its your basic 16-bit RGB format).
This gives you 32x64z32 = 65536 colours and is not too bad. A well dithered RGB 565 display is almost as good as your HAM8 (since green is the brightest colour, it makes sense to give it the greater resolution so that the steps are smaller).
If you see red as completely smooth, green and blue as 16 bands, it implies the rather insane RGB 844 format. This format could only have been chosen by some tired HW designer who had no knowledge of colour theory at all. First of all, the green channel should have the greater bit depth (where the total resolution is not divisible by three) and no single R/G/B channel really needs more than 2x the resolution of the others. This is why RGB 565 works so well, but RGB 844 is just bobbins ;-)
-
Hmm, this got me thinking
Perhaps we could get a colour calibration testcard. A basic 320x256 HAM8 one consisting of your three basic (undithered) gradients (arranged side by side as 100x256, 100x256, 100x256) a test image for scandoublers as there would be no fringing for vertical gradients.
For perfect HAM8 reproduction, there should be 64 bands to each gradient (each one has a 6-bit basic resolution). Perhaps some calibration points down the edge of the image to help counting :-)
-
Hold it...
If the Amiga brochures say AGA can handle 262,144 colours then HAM8
must be 18-bit.
I agree that HAM8 would be 6-bit on each of the RGB guns for a 64
colour gradient, however my eyes can't count that without getting
lost.
Since PAL is a little gritty on my EZ-VGA Plus I decided the only way
to be able to see the difference between gradients was to use NTSC.
I managed to count RGB colours as 22/44/22... which makes 4.5/5.5/4.5
as opposed to 4/8/4 or 5/6/5.
Since my eyes had trouble making this out accurately, this rough
calculation surely means I have a superior 5/6/5 16-Bit configuration
and not the crazy 4/8/4 scenario (or worse - 8/4/4 you mention).
However, if it left my HAM8 alone I would have 6/6/6 (the sign of the
devil!)
Oh well, if you love your colours I suppose the only option is to put
up with flicker on a 15Khz monitor or get a Picasso-IV.
Any PIV users here able to do this test on an AGA screenmode for us to
see?
:-D
-
@Hyperspeed
Actually, believe it or not, there are tricks that can be achieved with the copper that allow static images to be shown in near 24-bit on AGA/HAM8 ;-) It centres around using a different set of base colours per scanline. It's good for image viewers but not suited for realtime displays.
If you have RGB565 that is not too bad. Any 844 variant would just look awful.
Let's see how they compare ;-)
-
Very informative thread guys.
As I was reading it, I was thinking that the bits-per-gun issue would probably be different for differetn makes of FF. Maybe people could post there experiments here so we could create a list of how the different FFs are configured.
Seems the EZ-VGA-plus is winning at the moment!
I've got an old AGA-2000 in my A2000 that I'd love to put in my 4000D. I know it doesn't support AGA colour depths but that doesn't and I heard it would still actually work.
I managed to fit it in the video slot ok - except because it's designed for the 2000's huge backplane, the video out socket is obscured by the case!
Any bright ideas?
Martyn.
-
What about finding (or making) a female->male extension lead. It could
fit in the obstructed port and trail out, then screw into a spare gap
in the other slot areas.
On another note, since the EZ-VGA Plus disables itself when it detects
Multiscan Productivity then on this particular screenmode I must be
getting a full 18-bit HAM8 palette!
Multiscan appears a little lighter than PAL/NTSC and is very crisp. It
doesn't appear to lose the quality of a 15Khz signal being converted
to composite and back (during the flicker fixing stage I think).
Multiscan Productivity is pretty slow as it eats up the ChipRAM
bandwidth but you get a perfect RGB 640x480 (4:3) resolution along
with a true 1:1 ratio mouse pointer which looks the business!
Maybe I'll set up a mode for every occasion!
:-D :-D :-D
-
@Hyperspeed
You could look into getting a graphics card. Your eyes will love you for it. My BVision is faster in 1600 x 1200 x 65536 colours than AGA is in 640 x 256 x 4 colours.
-
Yes, I'd love a GFX card but I want a Picasso-IV and whilst it's
possible it doesn't look straightforward to add one to an A1200.
Particularly a desktop A1200!
:-D :-D
I think this thread is useful to A500, A500+, A600, CDTV and CD32
owners since the external EZ-VGA Plus can be just slotted onto their
standard video out ports. I've never heard of GFX cards for those
machines which is a shame really.
The biggest shame for A1200 owners was never getting a small GFX card
add-on but as has been explained to me in another thread - it was only
until the BlizzardVision that this was possible in an effective way.
-
That's true. The P-IV is a very good card, once termed "the godfather of amiga graphics cards" :-)
You'd be very ill advised to use a BVision in a desktop 1200 though - the Permedia2 and SGRAM are clocked at least 83MHz and get hot. In my tower, the P2 has a 25mm tall power amplifier heatsink bonded to it and a 80mm case fan mounted over the whole card area to keep it cool.