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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: kd7ota on August 27, 2004, 03:14:44 AM

Title: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: kd7ota on August 27, 2004, 03:14:44 AM
I was just wondering.

If the blueprints of how the PPC cards were released to the public, would it be possible for a company to remanufacture the cards? Like if a certain amount of people would pitch in some moneys to get a PPC card, do you think the factories would reproduce the card?  :-D

Sorry for the ignorant question, but I thought it would be cool to get the design of the PPC cards and just have someone to reproduce them....  :-)
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: B00tDisk on August 27, 2004, 04:24:34 AM
Heck, if you're going to do that, why not scrape up the plans for the AmiJoe or the 2603 card and get PPC on A2000's? :)
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: jeffimix on August 27, 2004, 04:31:53 AM
They are owned by DCE.

DCE has no interest in making them anymore, but I bet they'd still charge a lot to buy the rights.

The problem is that the PowerPC accelerator boards would cost too much, no reason not to get a full-on AmigaOne for that kinda price. (or Pegasos if you can find it, amigaones are still in stock in the US atleast it seems) Something like a real AmiJoe would be much more cost effective, or something using atleast a 600MHZ G3. Haage + Partner's PPC software (came with OS3.5 and above) is technically retargetable, just never had any other boards to port it to.

PS: Creepy thought, wouldn't it be possible for H+P to write new drivers and relase WarpOS or whatever for AmigaOne/Os4 machines? Technically possible I imagine, wow.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: JoannaK on August 27, 2004, 04:51:25 AM
For avaiilability of Pegasos 2 ..  Ultraspec announced couple days ago that they have Pegasos 2 on stock and they are shipping them.

See http://www.ultraspec.us/pegasos.htm for pricing etc..  

Note: No, I have not verified this myself beoynd seen it on net and on their own website.

---

About making PPC boards for classix.. Unfortunately. Without any market (hey .. 5 or 50 users ain't market) or parts available (those are at least 5 year old designs) there ain't no hope on making them.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: kd7ota on August 27, 2004, 07:35:16 AM
Yea,

It is hard to say if remaking the PPC card for the amiga is really worth it. With boards such as the AmigaONE and the PegasOS boards, then it might be better off to pick up one of them since it has at least pci ports and faster ram to it already...

Hmmmm, AmigaOS is really awsome, just need the right hardware to make it a dream come true.  :-)
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: KimmoK on August 27, 2004, 07:37:26 AM
I would like to see AmiJoeG3 in production instead of BPPC or CSPPC.

IMO: there is no sense in reproducing those G2 PPC+68k cards and try to sell them @ $1000 (CSPPC would still cost that much, most likely)

AmiJoe cards would have chance to generate less financial loss...
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Piru on August 27, 2004, 08:09:43 AM
I would imagine it's almost impossible to find parts for the old BPPC/CSPPC cards, the boards are so tight designs (esp BPPC), there wasn't room for alternative component configurations.

Not to mention the price of the new cards would be unbearable, and performance poor.

@kd7ota
Pegasos is a motherboard, not an OS. So just "Pegasos" not "PegasOS".
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: kd7ota on August 27, 2004, 08:17:27 AM
@Piru

Sorry man, I keep making that mistake of saying PegasOS  :-P  Ill overtime get it right to pegasos
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Warface on August 27, 2004, 10:54:23 AM
Quote
PS: Creepy thought, wouldn't it be possible for H+P to write new drivers and relase WarpOS or whatever for AmigaOne/Os4 machines? Technically possible I imagine, wow.


It's absolutely possible, but absolutely pointless - WarpOS is not a standalone OS, it requires AmigaOS (like) environment as well.

There is an excellent WarpOS wrapper for MorphOS though, enabling use of WarpOS programs seamlessly and transparently for the user. For AmigaOS4 some sort of an "application launcher" for WarpOS programs is planned (or was planned).
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Schoenfeld on August 28, 2004, 07:34:36 AM
I would not recommend to produce the old designs of P5 PPC cards. The 060 socket on those is surface-mounted, and can't stand the mechanical stress of heat generated by the processor  and the surrounding parts. Result is that many cards fail when they're power-cycled very often. Best bet is to leave the Amiga on all the time to keep the temperature stable and mechanical stress as low as possible.

Jens Schoenfeld
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Bodie_CI5 on August 28, 2004, 09:53:12 AM
I would love if a company re-produced the 060 boards! Look at my sig ;-)
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Framiga on August 28, 2004, 11:22:31 AM
Hi Piru

>90% of the CSPPC components, are still in production.

The problematic ones are:

Mach programmed chips (the ICs are anyway available)

and the 604e

The other parts, are ALL available on the market (just got some spare parts myself)

Don't know about Blizzards

Bye

Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Framiga on August 28, 2004, 11:29:37 AM
Hi Jens

i agree, although there is a company that sells those sockets, with a better self adjusting SMD contacs

PRECI-DIP

http://www.precidip.com/catalog_10/pdf/p90.pdf

the 3rd in the 3rd row "18x18" (xxx-xx-223-18-091)

The PRECI-DIP Company, uses a technology

"with"floating SMD contacts wich are self-adjusting with the solder pad, even with slightly distorted PCB" (from PRECI-DIP site)

http://www.precidip.com/connect/connect_10.html#2

Obviously, then they MUST be soldered at the "state of the art" (unknown definition at DCE)

Bye
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Kronos on August 28, 2004, 12:38:43 PM
Quote

jeffimix wrote:
 Something like a real AmiJoe would be much more cost effective, or something using atleast a 600MHZ G3. Haage + Partner's PPC software (came with OS3.5 and above) is technically retargetable, just never had any other boards to port it to.



Sorry, but that is total #### ....

WarpUP needs an 68k, and an 68k-OS running on it.
Something that is impossible when you have no 68k (when you you look at an A4000), or just an 68ec20 (A1200).

So you would atleast need a new (PPC)-kernel with 68k-emu, somthing like MorphOS-0.x for example.

Emulating/recreating the PuP-API on such a beast should be much easier than doing it it for WuP.

-cleanly seperated 68k and PPC binaries instead of chaotic ext-hunks
-limited API instead of a PPC trying to do what it couldn't do (calling 68k-funcs that is)

So anybody still claiming that WuP was a 1st step into the direction of an PPC-native OS is in serious need for a clue.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Holley on August 28, 2004, 12:53:03 PM
I think you missed the point there, he was saying it would be possible to make Wup aware of a new card.  The AmiJoe was meant to be working, but shelved as it was uneconomical to produce, it'd certainly be a more realistic to make that than re-create the original PPC designs.

Of course none of this is going to happen as there just isn't a market for a classic accellerator any more - not with 2 new PPC platforms already in existance.  Perhaps making a hardware AGA emulator on a PCI card would be a more realistic taget? (could be built into the Catweasel Mk36 :-D).
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Kronos on August 28, 2004, 12:58:13 PM
@Holley

How should WuP be made aware of the new card, when it can't run due to the lack of an 68k ....

There was no 68k on the AmiJOE, and a pairing between the the 68ec20 and an G3 would have served nothing excet comical purposes ....

Both PuP and WuP heavily rely on the dual-CPU setup (a setup that allready crippled the 603/4-CPUs) and the abilty to complety take over the PPC, which is hardly possible when you also need it to emulate the missing 68k.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Argus on August 28, 2004, 01:35:45 PM
@Kronos

such negativity man....this is a positive forum.  I for one disagree with your assertion about the 'crippled' 604e.  Mine runs quite nicely under WarpUPv5.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Argus on August 28, 2004, 01:48:38 PM
@Schoenfeld

Gruess Jens,

habe eine CyberstormPPC Karte schon sechs Jahre und kein Problem dabei.  Ich glaube man muss noch groesser Ventilator an die Karte befestigen um die Hitze des Prozessors usw. zu vermindern. Das habe ich schon seit Anfang getan.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Framiga on August 28, 2004, 01:52:58 PM
Caro Argus

la mamma non ti ha insegnato che è da maleducati, rispondere in una lingua non comprensibile da tutti?

Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Kronos on August 28, 2004, 01:59:22 PM
@Argus

It IS crippled compared to what the same CPU achieved in pure PPC-systems (early PPC-Macs, BeBox).

Sharing RAM between 2 incompatible CPUs and disabling L2-cache sure do no good....

The point is that there is absolutly no point to design a dual-CPU card with a G3/4 and an 68k, and that a pure PPC-cardwould require a real PPC-OS (and not those oddities known as PuP/WuP).
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Cyberus on August 28, 2004, 02:32:54 PM
@ Argus

sì, perchè in tedesco?

Jeder spricht nicht Deutsches...
:lol:
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Piru on August 28, 2004, 03:03:28 PM
Suu kii soppanaama, naamas on ku lusikka.
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Holley on August 28, 2004, 03:04:05 PM
@Kronos - so you have dual PPC processors instead, one emulating a 68k processor (emulation could start at boot time), and one to run Wup on :-D

c'mon, this is pure speculation anyway ...
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Cyberus on August 28, 2004, 05:06:07 PM
Quote

Piru wrote:
Suu kii soppanaama, naamas on ku lusikka.


One of the most difficult languages in the world....

I tried learning Estonian (close relative) for 6 months - impossible for an Englishman! And I'm meant to be ok at languages..  :-(
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: jeffimix on August 28, 2004, 06:05:32 PM
Hablas espanol?
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Wibbly on August 29, 2004, 03:03:11 AM
@Cyberus

any language is impossible for Englishmen to learn. I guess it's the way we were schooled or something. I heard English is one of the most difficult languages to learn (I don't doubt it either) yet people from about every country around the world manage to do it. Thankfully Amiga appears to be an international language all of it's own  :lol:

On topic, of course PPC card reproduction is possible. Doesn't make it any more likely we'll see it happen though. Just wouldn't be enough takers to make it economically viable.

Det er liv
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Effy on August 29, 2004, 08:17:15 AM
Also no technical knowledge here, but if the OS4 is PPC based, can´t it activate the Level2 cache compared to OS3.9 so it will boost up speed ??? Just a question ...
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Framiga on August 29, 2004, 11:05:12 AM
Piru

can i start to use my pizza and mandolino too? :-)

Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Effy on August 29, 2004, 02:42:37 PM
Пожалуйста попытайтесь поговорить английскую язык только. Это уже трудно достаточно...

ntente por favor hablar inglés solamente. Esto es ya bastante difícil...

Παρακαλώ προσπαθήστε να μιλήσετε τα αγγλικά μόνο. Αυτό είναι ήδη αρκετά δύσκολο...

Eat this for a change !!!
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: X-ray on August 29, 2004, 09:45:02 PM
Julle ouens moet ophou om met soveel taale te praat. Dit maak geen sin vir die ander mense en net-nou gaan ek vloek!!
Title: Re: Reproduction of PPC cards possible??
Post by: Holley on August 29, 2004, 10:38:58 PM
Effy - sometimes typing in someone elses language makes it easier for them to decifer, my partner speaks to a friend in (bad) French and they speak to her in equally bad English - it works better/quicker than anything else! ;-)