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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: X-ray on August 20, 2004, 09:02:25 PM
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Just saw on the news, one of the Iraqi football players in Athens says that if he wasn't in the Olypmic team, he would be in Iraq shooting American soldiers.
Funny thing is, he doesn't say what the mechanism is by which he will not be tortured if (and likely when) his team loses and goes back to Iraq.
Seems he has forgotten the name Uday, and how that name ceases to be of importance in his life.
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No offense, but you don't know a thing about this individual or what he has seen and experienced, both before and after the invasion.
For all you know, he's seen gore and carnage you and I are never exposed to, possibly lost loved ones as a result of the war and seen his country reduced from an oppressive dictatorship (bad enough already) to a virtually lawless anarchy with no sign of improvement and either a radical theocracy or puppet government to look forward to in future.
Perhaps you should just be thankful that he *is* in Athens, playing football and not taking pot shots at soldiers in Iraq...
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@ Karlos
So do you think it was appropriate for an Olympic contestant to make comments like that?
Does that mean that an American contestant (who may have lost a relative in Iraq) can go on TV and say that if he wasn't in the Games he would be in Najaf shooting Iraqi trouble-makers?
Oh, all of a sudden its not so appropriate.
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Every dictator uses nationalism to keep neighbours enemies of the people rather than himself. Saddam has indoctrinated his people for three decades that he was not the enemy, that Iran and America and Israel were. The Americans have totally underestimated the strength of this feeling. As soon as any country is invaded, the invaders become the enemy, not the dictatorship.
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X-ray wrote:
@ Karlos
So do you think it was appropriate for an Olympic contestant to make comments like that?
Does that mean that an American contestant (who may have lost a relative in Iraq) can go on TV and say that if he wasn't in the Games he would be in Najaf shooting Iraqi trouble-makers?
Oh, all of a sudden its not so appropriate.
I didn't say that, did I? I don't think it was appropriate at all - I don't agree that sports and politics should mix on any level. I'm just trying to make you see that your inference that "he should be grateful theres no Uday around to torture him when he goes home having lost..." was equally out of place. Sure the guy should be thankful that Uday isnt around anymore, but the problem is that the old enemy (the dictatorship) has been replaced with a new one (the occupying forces) in the eyes of many ordinary iraqis.
Incidentally, your analogy is a bit flawed, given the US invaded iraq. Had Iraq have invaded America, it would have been an equivalent remark for an American contestant to say s/he would otherwise be in the US (maybe with the Michigan Militia?) shooting at Iraqis...
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@ Karlos:
Oh, so I must not have interpretted your first reply properly then.
You said "..but you don't know a thing about this individual or what he has seen and experienced, both before and after the invasion."
What is the inference in that remark? That the individual is justified in making that comment, or that he is not justified?
Your last comment of "..I don't think it was appropriate at all.." doesn't seem to fit your original statement: or have I misunderstood again?
And yes, I do think it is especially inapproriate for him to have made that comment in view of the fact that the standpoint he used to make that remark was not one that he would have had easy access to or indeed could have enjoyed to quite the extent he is at the moment, had it not been for the removal of those who would punish him for poor performance.
Unless you are insinuating that the 'token' government and/or the US forces intend to torture him just the same when he gets back, because you claim that one evil has been substituted for another?
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@X-Ray
Oh, so I must not have interpretted your first reply properly then.
Possibly. I wasn't too clear either. There was no intended inference one way or the other as to how appropriate such a remark was, just that the guy clearly has very strong feelings. I had hoped that this was obvious, but even re reading my own post I can see that it isn't.
You said "..but you don't know a thing about this individual or what he has seen and experienced, both before and after the invasion."
What is the inference in that remark? That the individual is justified in making that comment, or that he is not justified?
No inference intended (but as I say my view is that it's wrong to mix politics into sport). I was actually trying to highlight that the guy has probably been through much more than you or I realise and that perhaps explains (but not justifies in the sense you are asking) his actions.
Understanding a view is not neccesarily the same as agreeing with it.
Unless you are insinuating that the 'token' government and/or the US forces intend to torture him just the same when he gets back, because you claim that one evil has been substituted for another?
I said that in the eyes of many everyday iraqis that one evil has been substituted for another. The iraqis by and large didn't like Saddam. That doesn't mean they like the occupying forces any more than they did their previous regime. Again, this is just trying to see it from their perspective.
As for torture... *cough* Abu Graib *cough*
However, even without that particulare debacle, I would say its not unreasonable to argue that having to live in a country in the state Iraq is presently in - continous fighting, terrorism, lack of basic amenities, lack of work etc. - is pretty torturous.
I'm sorry if you find these views offensive.
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@ Karlos
My view is that there were arguably negative and positive consequences of the coalition action in Iraq. One of the undisputed benefits was that this particular player could safely go to the Games, participate in them AND SAFELY GO BACK to Iraq. This was never an option for him before. So yes, I find it at the very least a churlish comment that he would stand there in his sports clothes at the Games and say that if he wasn't there he would be at home shooting Americans.
You mention Abu Graib: well that relates to the abuse of prisoners of war and unless this footballer is a POW on a pass I think he'll be okay when he gets back. The other thing to remember is that the atrocities are not one-sided there. American contractors, civilians, just doing their jobs and not having any military role whatsoever have been beheaded in Iraq. So what I'm trying to tell you is that both Iraqis and Americans have suffered in Iraq, but if you look at the overall intent and attitude that the coalition forces have towards Iraqi civilians, I find it unacceptable that one of their civilians uses the Games as a platform to state that he would have been back home shooting Americans when it is the coalition forces who have made it possible for him and many other Iraqi civilians to enjoy some of these very basic freedoms for the first time.
"..I'm sorry if you find these views offensive..."
No, my mate, I am not offended, we are just having a conversation and it is clear that we have different views, that's all. And I don't think either one of us is going to bring the other around to his way of thinking.
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@XRay
It seems we can agree to disagree :-) But I do agree on the point that the games is no place for this kind of thing, even if I can understand his sentiments. So we dont disagree on everything.
I'm not disputing that americans have suffered in Iraq, but ultimately what happened to any american solidiers or contracters happened because they went there. You can't invade a country (under any pretext), and expect everybody to welcome you with open arms.
It's very easy to become detached from the true horror of war, seeing it santitized, portrayed as an honourable fight with clearly defined objectives, well defined enemies and the feel good reports of grateful people welcoming heroic troops as they drive through the streets immediately following liberation.
The reality is rather different :-(
The battle for hearts and minds is usually lost the moment the first innocent casualties start appearing - and given the sheer number of them so far, it's obvious where such antipathy comes from. Be thankful you are largely spared the images of burned, mangled babies after "strategic" bombing raids, children shredded into unidentifiable chunks of gore after playing with unexploded clusterbomb ordinance (appaulingly the same colour as the food parcels), massacres in fallujah as scores innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time gunned down by jumpy soldiers, civilians blown apart with DU rounds from helecopter gunships (gasp that one even made it into the news here), the faces of people who have seen their familes and homes obliterated by single misdirected bomb (so called smart bombs were largely a minority weapon in the "shock and awe" offensive), the humiliation and torture of prisoners, etc. etc.
Take the four contractors (incidentally all of whom were mercenaries) that were burned and mutilated, multiply that number by several thousand and replace with ordinary people and that is the scale of the tragedy you are looking at.
You must also consider that the average Iraqi in the street had a pretty deep mistrust of the US to begin with, irrespective of their views on their own government. After decades of being fed the "great satan" opinion, seeing the US's unconditional support for Israel (economically, politically and militarily), being encouraged to rise up against their dictator in GW1 and then watching as the all troops left, leaving the uprisers to be massacred, years of sanctions and finally another messy war with (tens of) thousands of casualties, are you honestly surprised?
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Hum,
Yeah, i think, it is inappropriate in the modern Olympic games to mention political views.
>>says that if he weren’t in the Olympic team, he would be in Iraq shooting American soldiers.
Difficult to know from what perspective (`we` don`t live in Iraq) he was talking from i think...And English isn't his first language.
Perhaps he meant if he said that if he wasn't in the Olympic team, he would be in a `war zone` , and defending himself/family/country etc...
Perhaps he's a keen photographer... :crazy:
To me, it`s a minor remark...and no big deal, and best forgotten about...best to keep the politics out ...
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lol @ keen photographer
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Any links to any news articles about this? I'd like a bit more background...
- Mike
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@ Kevin Spacey
Unfortunately I saw it on the news here in London, not on the net. Don't know if there is a link. I'll try to find one...
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Iraqi soccer players angered by Bush campaign ads (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/19/iraq/index.html?cnn=yes)
"Iraq as a team does not want Mr. Bush to use us for the presidential campaign," Sadir told SI.com through a translator, speaking calmly and directly. "He can find another way to advertise himself."
To a man, members of the Iraqi Olympic delegation say they are glad that former Olympic committee head Uday Hussein, who was responsible for the serial torture of Iraqi athletes and was killed four months after the U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq in March 2003, is no longer in power. But they also find it offensive that Bush is using Iraq for his own gain when they do not support his administration's actions. "My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq. What is freedom when I go to the [national] stadium and there are shootings on the road?"
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I was just reading an article about this... Here's the link:
Iraqi Soccer Players Angered by Bush Campaign Ads (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0819-05.htm)
To a man, members of the Iraqi Olympic delegation say they are glad that former Olympic committee head Uday Hussein, who was responsible for the serial torture of Iraqi athletes and was killed four months after the U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq in March 2003, is no longer in power.
But they also find it offensive that Bush is using Iraq for his own gain when they do not support his administration's actions. "My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq. What is freedom when I go to the [national] stadium and there are shootings on the road?"
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That report by Grant Wahl is certainly easier to swallow than the one I saw, which mentioned 'shooting Americans' specifically.
I don't think it is covered on the Net, it was a TV interview. I saw it on Channel 5, if that helps.
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I believe in the constitution of the United States of America and the freedom to say what you believe right or wrong.. It's your opinion and you have a right to it, especially if you are being represented on a country's television without an outlet.. If you are an American and don't believe in Free Speech SHAME on you...
But apparently free speech comes at a premium, even in the USA these days..
did anyone see this news post?
Graphic Designer Fired After Heckling Bush (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20040821/1520386092.htm)
This proves you don't have to be Whoopi to get in trouble for speaking your mind...
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@ Donny
This isn't a freedom of speech issue. I'm not annoyed by the fact that he said something in public: if he had been down at the local train station and pulled out a bullhorn and started yelling that he hates Bush and wishes Bush was dead, that's a different matter.
What I didn't like is the fact that this dude used his position as an Olympic athlete to make a statement to the effect that if he wasn't in the Games he would be at home shooting Americans, the same Americans that have facilitated his appearance and safe return from the Games.
Do you see the difference? It's more of an issue about the context in which he said it, not the plain fact that he said it alone.
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I can't find any references to 'shooting Americans' in any news stories about this. Could it be Channel 5 news is making it up? Good heavens above!
Anyway, I did find this interesting article...
Iraq fury over Bush campaign (http://foxsports.news.com.au/olympics/story/0,9744,10518253-35140,00.html) [Fox Sports, Australia]
See, Fox reckon the football players were made to say those things by the media to get at Bush. They didn't really mean it and this won't hurt Bush's re-election prospects. We are safe.
-zudo