Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: Cyberus on August 11, 2004, 08:41:16 PM
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Here's the deal
I bid on a trade magazine.
I won the auction.
The guy wanted to charge 2.95 for postage and 40p for PayPal fees. I wasn't happy about the paypal fees at all, but when I asked if he could send the mag by 2nd class post, he said he'd knock off 50p.
So I kind didn't fell so bad about the deal, seeing as I would have to drive to the Post Office to get a stamp, and by the time I'd done that, it would've costed more than 40p to send him a cheque.
Now, the mag drops through my door today, with 71p's worth of postage. He charged me 2.45 for postage (this envelope can't have cost nearly two quid!) and a 40p PayPal fee, and the c**t suggested I left him feedback!
What can I do, as I don't want 'revenge feedback' tarnishing my spotless feedback, cos I'm sure he'd make up something, when I've gone to great lenghts in the past to make sure I deal with buyers and sellers fairly and professionally. I take great pains to weigh out my items when I sell, and in the past I've refunded the difference when the post quote has been over (once)
I know its only a couple of quid, but I don't think piss-takers like this should be able to get away with it!
Any thoughts?
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If fees are given as flat fees in the auction, then charging any price for shipping and handling is appropriate. After all, you can elect not to bid on the item. I sometimes give a flat fee based on what I think it will cost, and don't refund the difference if it turns out to be cheaper. This is because it's a better experience for the bidder to be able to bid on an item knowing the full costs up front, and being able to pay immediately and get thier item sent out quick.
If they don't specify fees in the auction, then I feel this implies actual cost of shipping will be calculated upon auciton close, which should be within 25% plus or minus of the actual real cost that the post office charges.
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Its against ebay policy to charge for paypal fees. I'd report him.
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FastRobPlus wrote:
If fees are given as flat fees in the auction, then charging any price for shipping and handling is appropriate. After all, you can elect not to bid on the item. I sometimes give a flat fee based on what I think it will cost, and don't refund the difference if it turns out to be cheaper. This is because it's a better experience for the bidder to be able to bid on an item knowing the full costs up front, and being able to pay immediately and get thier item sent out quick.
If they don't specify fees in the auction, then I feel this implies actual cost of shipping will be calculated upon auciton close, which should be within 25% plus or minus of the actual real cost that the post office charges.
I see your point, and I fear that it will ring true with ebay too. However, I assumed it was a heavy magazine (you know what some mags are like, like phone directories), and I wasn't to know the postage was overcharged.
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You have a good point Cyberus. If it looks heavy and expensive, but turns out to be light, or qualify for some kind if cost-reduced shipping (like Media mail in the US), you can't be expected to know if you are being overcharged even when the quote is a flat fee.
Oddly enough, I did refund somebody $6 in shipping because I had badly misjuged the cost of shipping.
If I ever get more in to ebay selling, I'll invest in a scale, and some shipping self-study. As it is, I just read what other are charging in thier simiilar auctions, and quoting the same.
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TheMagicM wrote:
Its against ebay policy to charge for paypal fees. I'd report him.
How do I do that?
I find these particular parts of ebay (complaints etc) difficult to find. [Hmm, wonder if that's deliberate..]
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I've written him a polite letter expressing my displeasure :lol:
Hopefully, as he only has a feedback of 10, he might try and keep me happy so I don't make him have 90% instead of 100%
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2 points.
1) Sellers charging PayPal fees to buyers is against eBay policy.
2) Sellers are permitted to charge a packaging and handling fee within reason. If fees were stated upfront then the postage paid is irrelevant.
So the seller seems wrong in one aspect, but right in the other. I wouldn't recomend leaving negative feedback for him, though you may want to report to ebay for the PayPal fee abuse.
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Just a quick note. Even if it was mailed in a cheap paper bag, sellers are permitetd to still charge a handling fee. Most companies outside do this anyhow, and most don't blink an eye. Ebay is just a little more intimate.
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I realise I don't have much comeback about the postage fees, its just that I always go to great lengths to ensure my postage is fair, sometimes I've even lost out by underquoting it. I always though it was both the fair thing to do, and sound business sense, to not rip off your buyer....
Also I've bought stuff, I've found that buyers have on the whole been very accomodating. For example recently, I got a piece of software and manual, and then was dissapointed to find the disk wasn't original (the manual, however, was) - the buyer offered to send me something else to compensate. As a result I was happy and left him great feedback.
Well, the world ain't fair....
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UPDATE: here is a copy of the email I received from the seller
I fully understand why you think the postage charge isn't fair..
EBay sellers can set the postage and package charge to any amount eg to
include time spent packing and posting.
I set the item price to start at 99p and set the p&p to higher than the true
cost. EBay charge charge sellers more for items above 99p both for listing
the item and also on the final bid price. thats why on ebay there are lots
of items at 99p and p&p charges differ between sellers.
You know, I can almost see his point.
But even so, I'm sure most sellers don't do this, do they? But on the other hand, ebay is ripe with shysters (sp?).
Guess its getting worse....? :-(
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sorry, but I can't really see what you are complaining about, the charge is not justa postage charge, you are allowed to charge a reasonable amount for handling. You dont know the guys circumstances, I know personally if i have to send something to someone i have to travel 20 minutes to the nearest post office, and 20 minutes back, with the queue's it might take as much as an hour out of my working day, plus travelling costs etc. i have seen people charge a lot more than that for postage of small items.
Ebay say that you may not charge an excessive amount for handling, but i don't think you could accuse the guy of charging excessively, that rule was brought in to stop the people who list items for very low prices but charge the cost of the item in the p+p fee (thereby avoiding ebay final value fees).
It's not as if he's ripped you off your life savings, just leave the guy positive feedback and be done with it, and in future check the postage charge before you bid.
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So does this mean that because I find it a pain in the arris wrapping stuff up, and then I have to drive to the Post Office to post it (I live in the sticks), I should charge more?
Like this guy did, over three times the cost of the postage?
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Cyberus wrote:
So does this mean that because I find it a pain in the arris wrapping stuff up, and then I have to drive to the Post Office to post it (I live in the sticks), I should charge more?
Like this guy did, over three times the cost of the postage?
Yes you can do that and should. I charge a few $ if I have to make a trip to the post office and if i have to buy a box. That all get added in to the shipping fee. Why should you as a seller have to pay for the box? You shouldnt. His fee was more then fair i think.
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Cyberus wrote:
So does this mean that because I find it a pain in the arris wrapping stuff up, and then I have to drive to the Post Office to post it (I live in the sticks), I should charge more?
Like this guy did, over three times the cost of the postage?
I'm a bit confused by the currency in question here, but if i understand the amounts correctly it's hardly a ripoff. (USD example)He may normally charge $2 per item for handling fee. If the postage is $0.80, the the total will be 3x the actualy postage, but it is not a ripoff. It is what it is. Seller really should be upfront about shipping costs, beware of sellers who aren't.
He may be an individual, but the time, effort or distance may warrant such an expense. This guy probably isn't, but many eBay sellers are actually running a business and handling fees are a reality to offset manpower.
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I personally do not accept PayPal. PayPal SUCKS !!!! When I put up my auctions on eBay, I always state the S/H charge and I also state "I only accept cash or a Postal money order, from a US or Canadian Post Office, as payment for this item. Buyers outside the USA will have to mail cash". I have never had any problems.
As a buyer I ALWAYS ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE BIDDING. One of the questions that I ask is how much for shipping? If a seller does not answer my questions or if the S/H is too high, then I will not bid. It's that simple. :roll:
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I really didn't realise people systematically charged handling fees. I've always quote the postage cost + a few pence for packing. Guess I've been a bit of a mug then...!
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I personally do not accept PayPal. PayPal SUCKS !!!! When I put up my auctions on eBay, I always state the S/H charge and I also state "I only accept cash or a Postal money order, from a US or Canadian Post Office, as payment for this item. Buyers outside the USA will have to mail cash". I have never had any problems.
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Yeow! I never pay money order or cash. Except that one time when I was new to ebay, paid a money order, and the guy took my money and dissapeared....
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I really didn't realise people systematically charged handling fees. I've always quote the postage cost + a few pence for packing. Guess I've been a bit of a mug then...!
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If you know the exact amount for shipping and handling, be a good player and charge that amount. For here in the US, I tend to quote what I think will be the most it will cost to ship to the 48-states, and place that quote in my auction. If it's a little less than that, no buyer will complain. If I have any shipping money left over, I'll add delivery confirmation to the package. I happen to think that buyers are more comfortable with the purcahse if they know there's some kind of limited tracking involved. I will refund money if I was way off on the shipping quote (like several dollars)
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Hi Cyberus,
I really didn't realise people systematically charged handling fees.
I usually always charge a handling fee. The handling fee pays for the following:
eBay Fees (I pay those fees only if the item sells for over $20.00, otherwise I make the customer pay the eBay Fees).
The Box and Packing Materials (I buy boxes and bubble-pack and special wrapping paper).
Wear and Tear on my car plus Gas to drive to and from the Post Office.
My Time standing in the long lines at the Post Office.
My time to carefully package the item.
My time to answer emails.
So, as you can see, the "handling" fee pays for a lot.
:-D
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Hi FastRobPlus,
I never pay money order or cash.
Then you will never buy anything from me and I sell a lot of really nice Amiga stuff from time to time on eBay. :roll:
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@Doomy
You charged me $5 for a eBay fee on a $170 item. Was not happy about that at all. But because I drove to OR from WA and saved on the shipping it was not too bad I guess.
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pretty funny how people charge to go drop off a item at the post office... USPS comes to my house to pick up packages (no, not just express/priority..regular also). Pretty convenient. I dont charge any "handling fee". Just for the box/packing material and shipping.
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Hi TheMagicM,
USPS comes to my house to pick up packages (no, not just express/priority..regular also). Pretty convenient.
Don't they charge you for that? And also, they will not pick up First Class Mail or Parcel Post packages. Only Express and Priority Mail and they charge $13.00 per pickup.
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Hi TjLaZer,
About a month ago I drove to Seattle, Washington to pick up an Amiga 2500 in mint condition, still in its original near-mint box. It cost me $45.00 just in gas. It would have been cheaper to have the guy ship it to me, but then the original Amiga 2500 box would probably have gotten damaged, so I guess it was better for me to get it myself. I took my rotty with me. :-D
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Two weeks ago I sold a laptop for 220 euro to be sent from Belgium to Spain and the guy payed by PayPal. Shipping costs were 29,50 euro according to the site of the belgian post, so I charged him 30 euro for that ... so far so good.
But ... PayPal reported 250 euro coming on my PayPal account from which their fee was 10,14 euro :-o and when I wanted to transfer the money to my belgian account it costed me another euro :-o + Ebay also charges me 5% of the bid (5% of 220 = 11 euro :-o ) + 1,5 euro for advertising the object ...
So in reality I have received 250 euro - 10,14 - 1 - 11 - 1,5 - 30 = 196.36 euro ... while the bid was 220 euro ...
Does this mean I got ripped of by PayPal ???
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people who charge handling fees are {bleep}s
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What I really dislike about Paypsal is that there is no option to choose who has to pay for the transfer. Paypal is very convienient for both parts, but it is always the receiver who has to pay for the transfer. If you do a wire-transfer with a bank, you can specify who should pay for what, ie. the seller can get the exact amount on his account without paying for the transfer. But wire-transfer is WAAY more expensive than Paypal, so in the end I really think Paypal's fees are appropriate.
(I transferred 30€ to a German account once, the fee from my bank ended at 20€...should have used Paypal...)
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Effy wrote:
Two weeks ago I sold a laptop for 220 euro to be sent from Belgium to Spain and the guy payed by PayPal. Shipping costs were 29,50 euro according to the site of the belgian post, so I charged him 30 euro for that ... so far so good.
But ... PayPal reported 250 euro coming on my PayPal account from which their fee was 10,14 euro :-o and when I wanted to transfer the money to my belgian account it costed me another euro :-o + Ebay also charges me 5% of the bid (5% of 220 = 11 euro :-o ) + 1,5 euro for advertising the object ...
So in reality I have received 250 euro - 10,14 - 1 - 11 - 1,5 - 30 = 196.36 euro ... while the bid was 220 euro ...
Does this mean I got ripped of by PayPal ???
Thats why I refuse to use Paypal, that and they fact after I sent an item to Estonia and it turned o ut the account he paid me with was reported as stolen (Odd that after i gave the tracking number not 10 mins later I got the email from paypal) and paypal held me at fault for sending the item to his gift address as he requested. Lost the money and the item on that one!
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A while ago when I didn´t know much about money transfers I went to my bank with a note about whereto and BLZ and Konto when transferring from Belgium to Germany. This costed me 8,5 euro. When I did homebanking on my pc then it costed me 6,25 euro. But when I now use IBAN and BIC it will cost me only the same as when I transfer money to my mother a village away from me ...
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Effy wrote:
A while ago when I didn´t know much about money transfers I went to my bank with a note about whereto and BLZ and Konto when transferring from Belgium to Germany. This costed me 8,5 euro. When I did homebanking on my pc then it costed me 6,25 euro. But when I now use IBAN and BIC it will cost me only the same as when I transfer money to my mother a village away from me ...
Yeah, I also did it from my computer at home...using BIC and IBAN and all that... the problem was, the receivers bank wanted 15€ for accepting money from a Norwegian bank...huh. We're not in the EU you know, so they rip us off as often as they can.
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Morley wrote:
Yeah, I also did it from my computer at home...using BIC and IBAN and all that... the problem was, the receivers bank wanted 15€ for accepting money from a Norwegian bank...huh. We're not in the EU you know, so they rip us off as often as they can.
I was about to transfer money from my Swedish account to a German bank account the other day and my bank wanted €1 for the transfer and the German bank wanted €11 to accept the money, and Sweden is in the EU.
Ended up using paypal instead.
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Morley wrote:
Yeah, I also did it from my computer at home...using BIC and IBAN and all that... the problem was, the receivers bank wanted 15€ for accepting money from a Norwegian bank...huh. We're not in the EU you know, so they rip us off as often as they can.
I think you'll find that banks rip you off as often as they can, full stop. It doesn't matter if you're in the EU or not!
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Don't they charge you for that? And also, they will not pick up First Class Mail or Parcel Post packages. Only Express and Priority Mail and they charge $13.00 per pickup.
BoingBoss: Nope. Not one penny. On the website it specifies what kind of packages they are picking up, even though they are not priority, I check them off as such and have never had any complaints.
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COD is my "rule of life" if i don't know the customer or bank tranfer if i already know him.
More expensive, but . . . SAFE :-)
Ciao
PS- think about all those poor guys, ripped on Amibench.
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I think that it's your own fault if you are upset about the postage. As someone else said, the fee was disclosed on the auction, and you therefore had an option not to bid on the item. As someone that DOES measure out and charge very accurately, I would think you'd spot that the shipping/handling fee was way off anyway.
As for people that don't like the PayPal/Ebay fees charged... You have the option not to sell your item on Ebay. All these fees are disclosed when you sign up (I've only recently started using Ebay, and I DID take the time to read all the crap before disclosing all my information). There's an option to put a reserve price on your item. Perhaps people should decide how much they need for the item, add on the ebay/paypal costs, and set a reserve accordingly.
Finally, if you have your own business, you would realise that the Paypal fee is not unfair. Every time you put a cheque into a business bank account, it costs a flat fee. Every time a credit card transaction is made into the account, there is also a percentage charged for the transaction. It's standard practice, I don't think Ebay/Paypal's fees are unreasonable. I think if you had a special bank account for your ebay stuff, and had it set up to where you could receive funds from a credit card, the cost would be similar (only the bank would charge you for the ability to receive funds in this way anyway, so Paypal is most likely a cheaper option)
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Morley wrote:
What I really dislike about Paypsal is that there is no option to choose who has to pay for the transfer. Paypal is very convienient for both parts, but it is always the receiver who has to pay for the transfer. If you do a wire-transfer with a bank, you can specify who should pay for what, ie. the seller can get the exact amount on his account without paying for the transfer. But wire-transfer is WAAY more expensive than Paypal, so in the end I really think Paypal's fees are appropriate.
(I transferred 30€ to a German account once, the fee from my bank ended at 20€...should have used Paypal...)
It can be worse.. I bought an item from a guy in Poland. The bank charged me $75USD (61 euro) for the transfer from this bank to his. On top of that, his bank charged him more money just for receiving it.
I agree. I think that, considering how fast the operation is, the ~4% fee Paypal charges is nothing compared to some of the other payment options out there.
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I think that it's your own fault if you are upset about the postage. As someone else said, the fee was disclosed on the auction, and you therefore had an option not to bid on the item. As someone that DOES measure out and charge very accurately, I would think you'd spot that the shipping/handling fee was way off anyway.
Sometimes it can be misleading though. What may seem like an appropriate charge for shipping and handling at the time you're bidding may not seem so when you receive the package. I remember paying for a pci card once. The shipping didn't seem too far off. When I got the card, however, it was simply tossed inside a box (freely moving around.) Had I known at the time that the seller would ship it as such, I definately wouldn't have thought the shipping reasonable.
A lot of the time it is obvious though. It's not uncommon to see someone listing an item undervalue and then trying to make some of that up in shipping and handling fees. (Easy to avoid.)
I never list shipping fees on my auctions. If the item goes for roughly what I think it's worth, I'll charge the price it costs me to ship exactly (I don't take in to account for anything else.) If I wind up getting more than I hoped for, I'll frequently cut the buyer a deal on shipping.
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Madgun68 wrote:
I think that it's your own fault if you are upset about the postage. As someone else said, the fee was disclosed on the auction, and you therefore had an option not to bid on the item. As someone that DOES measure out and charge very accurately, I would think you'd spot that the shipping/handling fee was way off anyway.
Sometimes it can be misleading though. What may seem like an appropriate charge for shipping and handling at the time you're bidding may not seem so when you receive the package. I remember paying for a pci card once. The shipping didn't seem too far off. When I got the card, however, it was simply tossed inside a box (freely moving around.) Had I known at the time that the seller would ship it as such, I definately wouldn't have thought the shipping reasonable.
Exactly, I didn't know how thick/heavy the item would be.
If I'd bid on a memory SIMM and the postage was 10 pounds, it'd be obvious the seller was overcharging. But with this, I wasn't to know until it arrived.
As for the PayPal fees thing, its no longer about whether one should pass the charge on to the buyer or not, ebay's TOS forbids it AFAIK. I used to levy a fee of 50 pence for transactions under 5 pounds. Now I don't accept PayPal for payments under 5GBP. Hmm, maybe I should add more to my postage costs.
I just originally thought this was grossly dishonest and against the spirit of ebay, but I guess not.
Regards
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I never list shipping fees on my auctions. If the item goes for roughly what I think it's worth, I'll charge the price it costs me to ship exactly (I don't take in to account for anything else.) If I wind up getting more than I hoped for, I'll frequently cut the buyer a deal on shipping.
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Now I don't accept PayPal for payments under 5GBP.
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Those are good policies, and I did them too at first. But I've found that two things help undecided users bid for an item in an auction:
- Shipping charges quoted up front
- PayPal accepted
With these two things, I realy do think you get more bids, which makes it worth accepting PayPal and giving costs up front.
As we saw in the begining of this thread, it's not a perfect way to do business. For the second time in a row, I've overcharged a buyer for media mail shipping, and now I need to refund some money. But as you know, PayPal will eat part of that in the transaction fee. So while I don't really like offering PayPal or quoting shipping up front, I do it anyway to be as convinient as possible to buyers.
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That´s why I try to sell objects at a minimum price where most fees are in-calculated ...
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Framiga wrote:
PS- think about all those poor guys, ripped on Amibench.
Did anything come of that investigation into the ripping?