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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: gizz72 on August 10, 2004, 05:33:48 AM
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Greetings,
There are now a ways and possiblility to clone human beings. I was wondering if we can preserve ourselves so we can be born on a different or new body, but mind/wisdom intact.
Some methods and ways are very crude. One example is cryogenics. Really gives me a shivers just thinking of it. I don't want to be preserve like a frozen fish. Even if we get frozen our cells would still degrade during freezing or defrezzing stage.
Another way is preserving our DNA's. However it may seem, when we get RE-BORN, our memories of the past would probably never be there. Hence, we'll never be the same person what we used to be.
The other method, may or may never be possible,is the making one's molocules to be transported in a 'Transporter Buffer', like a hard drive. Every detail would be intact. When you're time is up, you'll then be restored. However Your age is still the same when you were last 'downloaded'. So if you're 99, you're still be 99 and may die after transporting. Hehe no point to this method err... This method of immortality is possible only with younger people who wish to live in an immediate future. :-)
http://hashev.tripod.com/resurrection.html
!!WE CAN ALL BE SAVED!!!
:lol:
Regards,
Gizz
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Immortality with full access to all ones memories is simple: just make a 'state dump' from the minds quantum state. Only snag: this exceeds our affordabble storage capacity by factor of 10^12. Not to mention the fact that we have no technology at our disposal to go from a description of the quantum state to the actual one. Therefore, immortality is fiction for a very long time to come.
Apart from the scientific problems, you have to ask yourself whether it would be a good idea socially. A fundamental aspect of life is death: it allows a new generation to take its chances, and weeds out the unfavourable genes. You would have to implement very rigorous birth control. Even more pressing is the question what you would do with the time at your disposal. I think the only answer is to go out and explore the universe: life on Earth would become very boring after a few centuries. And even then you would need some means to cope with the incredible boredom which lasts thousands of years as you slowly crawl towards the next star.
Let's keep it science fiction.
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And how about the idea of 'the soul'?
Here's were all the militant atheists start jumping up and down...
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Hum,
even Valhalla doesn`t last forever.
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No, but even after the fall of the Æsir and the rest of the world a brave new world will arise....
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Human beings can't be cloned and possibly never will be able to using any form of genetic cloning technology, so that's out. As for being frozen, nah. I don't want to wake up 4 million years later and end up in a zoo.
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Blobrana wrote:
twins are clones remember...
No they aren't. Different fingerprints and everything.
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KennyR wrote:
Blobrana wrote:
twins are clones remember...
No they aren't. Different fingerprints and everything.
They are clones in the sense that they are genetically identical. However, its a common misconception that identical genes equates identical copy, which as you point out is not true. A great many natural structures in the body are fractal in nature and as such will differ slightly thanks to the influence of chaos as they grow and develop.
A perfect genetic clone of oneself would be no closer than one's own identical twin.
There is also evidence to suggest that there is some biological record of age that is not yet fully understood. Cloned animals have exhibited very rapid ageing effects that whould physically put them in a similar condition to the adult they were cloned from (Dolly the sheep was a classic example here).
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Karlos wrote:
KennyR wrote:
Blobrana wrote:
twins are clones remember...
No they aren't. Different fingerprints and everything.
They are clones in the sense that they are genetically identical. However, its a common misconception that identical genes equates identical copy, which as you point out is not true. A great many natural structures in the body are fractal in nature and as such will differ slightly thanks to the influence of chaos as they grow and develop.
A perfect genetic clone of oneself would be no closer than one's own identical twin.
There is also evidence to suggest that there is some biological record of age that is not yet fully understood. Cloned animals have exhibited very rapid ageing effects that whould physically put them in a similar condition to the adult they were cloned from (Dolly the sheep was a classic example here).
That's facinating, it would be incredible if scientists could figure out how to "stop that clock" so to speak. It would be the bee's knees to implement a biological aging stasis at 29 years of age.
I'd change my name to Lazarus Long and wear a kilt with a gun strapped to my inner thigh. :-P
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Hum,
Facinating...
I didn`t considered the fractal nature to this ...
But it's early days yet, and in a thousand years from now (er, after the eugenic wars) we'll all live happily every after.
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I heard of a nice little thought experiment which concerned the idea of artificial intelligence, can machines think, what is consciousness, etc, and also immortality of the mind.
So, how about, you get a small computer to take over the job of a set of neurons that are about to kick the bucket. You hook up your computer to all the little synapses that the old cells were talking to and you start the simulation. Can you tell the difference?
If not, repeat. Over many iterations, your brain should be completely replaced with computers, all without you even noticing so there is a continuity of consciousness. Now you are immortal (until the power cuts out). Your bits can be replaced indefinately.
Of course, it would be a pretty intellectual existance, unless someone can create an artificial twanger that can be plucked with as harmoniously as a natural one.
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FluffyMcDeath wrote:
I heard of a nice little thought experiment which concerned the idea of artificial intelligence, can machines think, what is consciousness, etc, and also immortality of the mind.
So, how about, you get a small computer to take over the job of a set of neurons that are about to kick the bucket. You hook up your computer to all the little synapses that the old cells were talking to and you start the simulation. Can you tell the difference?
If not, repeat. Over many iterations, your brain should be completely replaced with computers, all without you even noticing so there is a continuity of consciousness. Now you are immortal (until the power cuts out). Your bits can be replaced indefinately.
Of course, it would be a pretty intellectual existance, unless someone can create an artificial twanger that can be plucked with as harmoniously as a natural one.
Think of the features you could add, why not have "save states" for emotions? I wonder if wives would get mad if instead of calling "God" or her name, if we yelled "Record!!!" :lol:
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Hum,
i`m quite sure some newbie will try shouting `format!`
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T_Bone wrote:
Think of the features you could add, why not have "save states" for emotions? I wonder if wives would get mad if instead of calling "God" or her name, if we yelled "Record!!!" :lol:
He he. I'd put that in my playlist.
(Which leads to the idea of a p2p network for experiences)
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Cyberus wrote:
And how about the idea of 'the soul'?
What about it? Oh, you mean in the ethereal sense of the word. The religious one.
Here's were all the militant atheists start jumping up and down...
Of course ;-). There's no such thing as a soul, other than the impression we have of it. (It's nice food for thought whether that means it exists, by the way.) But we'll all find out for sure in under a century, right?
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blobrana wrote:
Hum,
i`m quite sure some newbie will try shouting `format!`
:lol:
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Greetings,
Speaking of souls, here's a good reading:
http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/soul.htm
Enjoy,
Gizz
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God, what a load of ASCII with difficult words and vague definitions just to provide a feel-good alternative to the cold and harsh reality built up by neuroscientists. I stopped the moment the premise of 'the Good News of the Gospel' entered the essay, then just scanned to see if I could understand a few paragraphs. I could not. I doubt the author himself understands what he wrote. It reminds me of the utter inaccesibility of Heidegger:
"... Die Angst gibt die Seinsmöglichkeit des Daseins in eins mit dem in ihr erschlossenen Dasein selbst den phänomenalen Boden für die explizite Fassung der ursprünglichen Seinsganzheit des Daseins ..."
I know German, I speak it fairly well, but what is said above might just as well be written in Chinese as far as I am concerned. Same goes with that essay.
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So, how about, you get a small computer to take over the job of a set of neurons that are about to kick the bucket. You hook up your computer to all the little synapses that the old cells were talking to and you start the simulation. Can you tell the difference?
If not, repeat. Over many iterations, your brain should be completely replaced with computers, all without you even noticing so there is a continuity of consciousness. Now you are immortal (until the power cuts out). Your bits can be replaced indefinately.
Erm, 'you' wouldn't experience it.
A different entity would take over, and you wouldn't know.
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Hum,
Interesting,
So it could be happening to (say) you right now?
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iamaboringperson wrote:
A different entity would take over, and you wouldn't know.
You could say the same thing about baby iamaboringperson, or 10 yr old iamaboringperson. Those entities are now dead and non of the atoms that made them up remain in the new entity that calls itself iamaboringperson, an new entity that just thinks it was, once, those other entities.
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FluffyMcDeath wrote:
iamaboringperson wrote:
A different entity would take over, and you wouldn't know.
You could say the same thing about baby iamaboringperson, or 10 yr old iamaboringperson. Those entities are now dead and non of the atoms that made them up remain in the new entity that calls itself iamaboringperson, an new entity that just thinks it was, once, those other entities.
Just think, he might not have even been iamaboringchild :-D
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A different entity would take over, and you wouldn't know.
but it would be JUST as boring
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I sincerely hope immortality will never happen. Then what will we do with those old people that retire at about 60? After some thousand years less than a percentage will be "young" productive people, aged between 20-60...
Jesus....the whole world will become Florida. :-o
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I'm sure that the retirement age will go up if people are capable of working for far longer (or there'll be no retirement at all if people can live forever).
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mdwh2 wrote:
I'm sure that the retirement age will go up if people are capable of working for far longer (or there'll be no retirement at all if people can live forever).
Society would be so different so there might not be employment and retirement as we know it.
If I had unlimited time to learn stuff why would I buy things that I could make myself?
1)As for cryogenics, the book Why call them back from heaven? by Clifford D. Simak is something to thing about.
I would never let my body( or head) be frozen, because I don´t want to be a Soylent Green burger:-)
As for genetics thats a long way of in the future.
2)"Stopping the clock": I have read somewhere that they succeded with this in some kind of worm, who lived twice or thrice as long as normal. Humans are a bit more complicated than worms.
3)"Replacement clone": This has the same problem as "Transfer mind to computer" we need to know exactly how the brain and body works and then why not use method 2?
Also this method would have enormous ethical consequences!
Don´t you know why Supermans homeplanet was destroyed? :-)
4)"Transfer mind to computer":see 3 above
And why the hell would you want to be a computer in the first place? Imagine getting a computervirus! :lol:
5)"Cheap taiwanse parts"(Noname Robocop:lol:): If the asian firms that makes consumer electronics, computers and cars today went into the prosthetic market, Replacement organs would be very cheap so eventually everybody could afford it. It couldn´t extend the life off your brain but maybe it would give us another 50 years to add to the 70-80 we already have.
And as a bonus it would help everybody injured in accidents or wars as well.
I don´t see how we could become immortal but with method 2 and 5 our lives could be extended. An accident which destroyed the brain would still kill us. There is also they question on how long the brain would function with method 5 it would still age and with method 2 I wonder how we would experience our extended life. Would we simply think slower or if not, how much memories could our brain handel?
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Greetings,
>Cheap taiwanse parts...
Thant reminded me of 'NEUROMANCER' when you can sell your body parts just to log-into 'cyberspace' for hacking. I think that's not far fetch, since we already have a pace maker. Just don't make the batteries go low, charge it! :lol:
I beleive the human brain can live more than 2 centuries. If I recall, during the old biblical times, people lived 200 years or more. The modern version would be, we are placed in a jar with electrodes stiking in(Not a pretty site though:-(). Attatch in a main frame which connectected in a humungus array of servers just keeping us all alive, while we 'think' we'er in a dreamworld.... Wait have I seen this before? :-)
Regards,
Gizz
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gizz72 wrote:
Greetings,
>Cheap taiwanse parts...
Thant reminded me of 'NEUROMANCER' when you can sell your body parts just to log-into 'cyberspace' for hacking. I think that's not far fetch, since we already have a pace maker. Just don't make the batteries go low, charge it! :lol:
I beleive the human brain can live more than 2 centuries. If I recall, during the old biblical times, people lived 200 years or more. The modern version would be, we are placed in a jar with electrodes stiking in(Not a pretty site though:-(). Attatch in a main frame which connectected in a humungus array of servers just keeping us all alive, while we 'think' we'er in a dreamworld.... Wait have I seen this before? :-)
Regards,
Gizz
Mona Lisa Overdrive by Gibson perhaps? :-) That Virek guy?
And the pacemaker is fairly lowtech compared to that cochleaimplant, an earimplant they use these days which sends the signals directly to the auditory nerve .
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Cymric wrote:
Cyberus wrote:
And how about the idea of 'the soul'?
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Of course ;-). There's no such thing as a soul,
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Where do you have this from?
What makes you so sure that there is no soul?
Is it just because no one is known who ever saw or touched it (the aged argument)?
If so, you should take into account that you can't see or touch music eigther - nevertheless it exists!
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Dandy wrote:
Cymric wrote:
Cyberus wrote:
And how about the idea of 'the soul'?
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Of course ;-). There's no such thing as a soul,
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Where do you have this from?
What makes you so sure that there is no soul?
Because persons who get a physical injury or sickness wich can cause change in their personality.
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KennyR wrote:
I don't want to wake up 4 million years later and end up in a zoo.
No, I want to wake up now in the zoo with a banana in my hands!
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Dandy wrote:
What makes you so sure that there is no soul?
[...] you should take into account that you can't see or touch music eigther - nevertheless it exists!
Music is audible, quantifiable, notatable, mathematically describable and is a phenomenon that is trivially replicable. What actually constitutes "music" is a matter of opinion.
The "soul" is only the last of the things above, i.e. a matter of opinion.
"Soul music" does not constitute proof of the soul by induction from proof of music.
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I beleive the human brain can live more than 2 centuries.
After 200 years the axons would be so demylinated, that it would take an hour to remember it's own name... I won't even go into the problems of mitochondrial death (working with all that nasty oxyen and it's free redicals), It would be about as intelegent as a banana.*
*Not a slur on the intelegence of Bananas.
If I recall, during the old biblical times, people lived 200 years or more.
:lol: .... no wait... :roflmao:
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Ima's avatar is really freaking me out. :-o :lol:
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bloodline wrote:
If I recall, during the old biblical times, people lived 200 years or more.
:lol: .... no wait... :roflmao:
They still do today, in a secret society known as the "Howard families."
:-)
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T_Bone wrote:
Ima's avatar is really freaking me out. :-o :lol:
Why?
:-D
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iamaboringperson wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Ima's avatar is really freaking me out. :-o :lol:
Why?
:-D
At first it looked like a woman turned away, looking over her shoulder, then I blink and some old hag appeared. wierd picture. :-P
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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
It is rather ambiguous, isn't it.
I take it by that remark that you've never seen Borings Mother in Law (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Boring+Mother+Law&btnG=Search) before? ;-)