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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: JohnFante on August 04, 2004, 09:54:16 AM
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I am considering buying a Kickflash from Induvidual Computers for my A4000D.
Does anybody have any experiences/advice they would like to share? For instance how much the boot time increases etc.
Thanks in advance.
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Isn´t that the Zorro3 card of that can be expanded to 1 Gb but nobody knows how :-?
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Effy wrote:
Isn´t that the Zorro3 card of that can be expanded to 1 Gb but nobody knows how :-?
Zorro II or III. It can be expanded up to 1GB via it's built in clockport, however the modules have not been released yet.
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I have both the eFlash4000(1MB, ZorroIII only.From Elbox)(Yeah I know, please don't hit me) :-) and the KickflashOS4(1MB, ZorroII and III. From IC) and I must say that the Kickflash is better with it's extra clockport.
The speed diff between them isn't noticeable. The Kickflash sits more firmly in the Zorro than the eFlash, that tends to "wiggle" a bit.
My version of the eFlash4000 was from the very first batch so I had to make a little hack on them(yes I have two) for them to work in my A3K's but after that it did it's job.
The Kickflash has only one jumper, enabled(then it reads it's memory and it's write protected) and disabled (then it's not reading the memory and it's not write protected). The eFlash has three jumpers(Write protected or not, read or no read and the third is for future features)
Bootup time is diff on diff Amigas, so I can only tell about mine and it went faster than I had expected so I'm pleased. I'll time them between when the board are enabled and disabled as soon as possible.
Oh, I almost forgot... The Kickflash is darkblue, veeeery nice :-)
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I prefer to wait for those modules to come out, to have 1 Gb memory on a card, that should be the way to go :-)
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1gb: oh yeah, gimme!!!
Whats the maximum I can address with this 060?
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I have a Kickflash, and I'm quite happy with it.
I had some problems in the start (the latest firmware didn't quite like my particular A4000T) but I got great and fast support from Jens Schönfeld/Individual Computers and CoyoteFlux (programmers of the CoyoteFlash tool), and it's working now.
As for the reduction in boot time, it's very individual. Basically, the boot time is reduced by the amount of time that passes between the setpatch reboot and when the computer starts booting again.
Go ahead, you won't regret it.
-Paul
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Thanks for all the advice. Just a fast, last question:
I allready have a legal 3.1 Rom-image (Amiga Forever) on my PC. Will I be able to transfer that to the Kickflash and use that?
Thansk in advance.
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@JohnFante
I am considering buying a Kickflash from Induvidual Computers for my A4000D.
If you have A4000 you should rather choose an eFlash 4000 card. Eflash 4000 is a regular Zorro III card, Kickflash is a Zorro II card. Yes, Kickflash works in Zorro III slots, but in Zorro II mode only. It makes that the access to the Kickflash Flash memory is over 10 times slower than to eFlash 4000 Flash memory.
Paying a little bit more only you can have eFlash 4000 with 2MB(!) of Flash memory. Additionally Elbox has worldwide Free Shipping offer now. :-D
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@tjaoz:
Hey, btw...your laundry from Elbox is just done.
(http://www.x56h34.com/amiga/moneybag.jpg)
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JohnFante wrote:
I allready have a legal 3.1 Rom-image (Amiga Forever) on my PC. Will I be able to transfer that to the Kickflash and use that?
Probably not. The rom images included with Amiga Forever are specially encrypted, and only work with WinUAE. Even then, I'm not sure the licensing allows you to use them elsewhere.
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@tjaoz
Even so, I would still buy the Kickflash, should I ever consider one such solution... Jens has always made fine products and I would rather support him than Elbox... Not saying that Elbox makes crappy stuff, but still... :)
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@Tjaoz:
Ah, the little Elbox-Rat is back.
> It makes that the access to the Kickflash Flash memory is over 10 times slower than to eFlash 4000 Flash memory.
Oh, right! Except for that factor of ten must be from your wildest dreams, let's calculate: Reading 1MB over Zorro II with 2.8MB/sec is about 0.35 seconds. Now, reading 1MB over Zorro III with presumably 7MB/sec is 0.14 secs. Now this has saved you really some of your lifetime! My gosh!
> Paying a little bit more only you can have eFlash 4000 with 2MB(!) of Flash memory.
Yeah, and what would you want to fill in there? The eFlash software has no support for Kickstart flashing and it allows only a maximum of 15 modules. So first find something that makes sense to place into the flashrom before advertising with even more space. Unfortunately, the eFlash software does not support compression, unlike the Algor (Pro) software, hence, you could easily fit nearly same amount in an Algor Pro FlashRom-
In a german magazine, Amiga Plus (recent issue), Algor/Romulus, eFlash and KickFlash have been tested intensively. And guess what, the eFlash has the worst software (a "Installer script" to select the flash rom items with absolutely no user-friendliness), the worst documentation (less than 2 KB?), the least features (even normal romtags hardly work!) and least additional modules and goodies (there are none). But hey, at least the CD contains 41MB of Elbox website, with the software for the eFlash being less than 30KB.
I don't need to tell you what was the winning product in this review. Elbox' software is lightyears away from being something usable. Who cares about that Zorro III interface? The flashrom is only read ONCE after turning the machine one, who cares about a few milliseconds more or less.
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Maybe I didn't understand all this, but ROM is certainly read more than once unless it has been copied to RAM. All the programs use ROM routines, and most of Amiga OS is held in ROM (thank God)
Can you explain me why are you all mentioning 1Gb, do you mean 1Mb? Kickflash is ROM image in flash memory, right?
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orange wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand all this, but ROM is certainly read more than once unless it has been copied to RAM. All the programs use ROM routines, and most of Amiga OS is held in ROM (thank God)
Can you explain me why are you all mentioning 1Gb, do you mean 1Mb? Kickflash is ROM image in flash memory, right?
There are only two "real" ROM spaces: 0xf80000-0xffffff where the normal kickstart ROM resides and 0xf00000-0xf7ffff for the "debugging" ROM (AFAIK used by CD32 and Cyberstorm/Blizzard early init ROM). The code in this location is already relocated to these fixed addresses -- they cannot be moved except by using virtual mapping by the MMU (or special hardware hacks like the MapRom feature).
Replacing Residents (aka RomTags aka Modules) from the ROM with new ones (e.g. from AmigaOS Update in 3.5/3.9/BB2) is done by relocating these modules somewhere in fast memory and letting a mechanism in the Kickstart ROM initialize the newer ones (KickTagPtr/KickMemPtr or the Residents list) instead the ones from the ROM.
Hence, as FlashROM actually behaves like a ROM in the sense that it cannot be written to in normal ways (it is not RAM), but you cannot guarantee that RomTags do not have DATA/BSS segments and need to write into associated memory or code, these modules have to be relocated to "real" RAM.
Under normal circumstances, this relocation of RomTags from the FlashRom only happens once at the very first boot, thus, the FlashRom is only read once and it is not time critical, how fast this is.
The Kickflash and Algor (PRO) cards are autobooting Zorro II cards, but they only use a 64KB segment of the Zorro II address space for accessing the 512KB/1MB of FlashRom.
Both Kickflash and Algor have to copy the contents to fast ram (including the kickstart rom image, that might be stored in there). (Again, this happens only once). The eFlash has to do this aswell, because of the reasons mentioned above (relocation) -- but unlike the other solutions, the eFlash cannot remap the Kickstart ROM.
The Kickflash has an additional clockport on its board, and it has been said that it should be able to hold a flash memory module with 1GB capacity (again, this will not show up as real memory in the computer, but rather some kind of ram-drive).
Hope this helps a bit.
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Anybody else but adolescent (thanks by the way :-)) have any input on using Amiga Forever 3.1 ROM images in Kickflash?
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@platon42
Ah, the little Elbox-Rat is back.
Ah, a poor E3B-bandog is back again, :lol:
Oh, right! Except for that factor of ten must be from your wildest dreams, let's calculate: Reading 1MB over Zorro II with 2.8MB/sec is about 0.35 seconds. Now, reading 1MB over Zorro III with presumably 7MB/sec is 0.14 secs.
Your numbers problem recur again. The true numbers are:
1. Kickflash Flash memory access speed is about 1.4MB/s. This is half the Zorro II speed only because Kickflash Flash memory is physically connected to only 8 of the 16 data lines of the Zorro II bus.
2. Eflash4000 Flash memory access speed is about 16MB/s. Everyone can easy check it with the Bustest program.
The hardware of the Elbox' eFlash differs a lot from others Flashes. Eflash 4000 is a clear Flash memory design. The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area. It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.
Yeah, and what would you want to fill in there? The eFlash software has no support for Kickstart flashing and it allows only a maximum of 15 modules.
You should check your sources before posting your imagination numbers about Elbox products. Eflash 4000 software allows storing the AmigaOS ROM Update and 24 other modules. Not 15, as you wrote.
Unfortunately, the eFlash software does not support compression, unlike the Algor (Pro) software, hence, you could easily fit nearly same amount in an Algor Pro FlashRom-
So far software for eFlash 4000 does not need to use compression because this card includes from 2 to 4 times more Flash memory than other Amiga cards with Flash. AFAIK Elbox plans to include compression for OS4 modules. Adding the compression in the firmware is a matter of few hours for the software developer, though.
The important factor is the real amount of the Flash memory installed on the card. This cannot be changed by any software update.
In this category eFlash 4000 is always much ahead, especially ahead of E3B products.
I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?
In a german magazine, Amiga Plus (recent issue), Algor/Romulus, eFlash and KickFlash have been tested intensively.
I have not seen this test, so I cannot tell your fantasy apart from what was really written in this test.
I read in someone's comment that in this Amiga Plus review eFlash 4000/1MB WON with Kickflash. But it looks that this is something, what you would rather prefer to hide here. :-)
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*sigh* :-(
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@Tjaoz:
As you don't seem to get it into your head: Speed for reading the flashrom does not matter. It is not time critical. This is no video memory or data memory that has to be accessed all of the time. It is read once. Is a Rat's brain too small to get this?
> The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area.
So what? It doesn't make it RAM. You cannot write it directly, so your point is moot.
> It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.
So? The flashrom of the Algor is accessable at any time after the machine has booted -- how would you be able to reflash it otherwise? (AFAIK the flashrom of the kickflash can also be accessed after booting, so what are you talking about?) For your information -- there is a flashdisk.device for the Algor for more than a year now, which could be used for a non-volatile Flash disk.
> You should check your sources before posting your imagination numbers about Elbox products. Eflash 4000 software allows storing the AmigaOS ROM Update and 24 other modules. Not 15, as you wrote.
Oh, they must have updated their software then -- unfortunately, even 24 modules is not enough e.g. for all parts of Poseidon and the ROM Updates. And even specifying 24 modules on a command line in a shell is ridiculous! Is this what Elbox calls userfriendliness?
> So far software for eFlash 4000 does not need to use compression because this card includes from 2 to 4 times more Flash memory than other Amiga cards with Flash.
The Algor PRO has 1MB of flash memory. With compression, you get close too 2MB capacity. What would you like to store in there?
> AFAIK Elbox plans to include compression for OS4 modules.
Just like Elbox planned the Shark PPC, the eFlash1200 or the MPEG card drivers?
There is a difference between providing something and merely "planning".
> Adding the compression in the firmware is a matter of few hours for the software developer, though.
Sure.
> I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?
Unlike Elbox, E3B has an agreement about the Algor/Romulus flashrom being supported by OS4. I've been in contact with the Frieden brothers several times and they suppose it is possible.
> I read in someone's comment that in this Amiga Plus review eFlash 4000/1MB WON with Kickflash. But it looks that this is something, what you would rather prefer to hide here.
Your wildest dreams, huh?
The Algor was rated with 6/6,
the Romulus got 5,5/6,
the eFlash 5/6,
the KickFlash 4/6
I will never ever understand, why the eFlash still got 5/6 (must have something to do with Elbox advertising in the mag on a full cover page?) after reading the review, especially concerning the serious flaws of NO documentation, NO GUI except for an "Installer script" dialogue and BROKEN functionality (adding rom modules by hand didn't work). But I guess, this is because the card was ZorroIII instead of ZorroII, which makes absolutely no noticeable difference.
Ah yes, the Algor has won in this test BY FAR. This is nothing out of imagination. I really hope Total Amiga will do their own reviews soon enough. Advertisment and PR gags are one thing, real product quality another.
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@platon42:
As you don't seem to get it into your head: Speed for reading the flashrom does not matter. It is not time critical. This is no video memory or data memory that has to be accessed all of the time. It is read once. Is a Rat's brain too small to get this?
Is your head so small that only E3B cliches may find room there, like that: "Speed never does matter"? :lol:
When producers of computer USB cards stopped producing USB 1.1 controllers, replacing them with Hi-Speed USB 2.0 units, he started releasing USB 1.1 controllers (Highway/Subway/Algor). You know: For E3B products "Speed never does matter." :lol:
For your information -- there is a flashdisk.device for the Algor for more than a year now, which could be used for a non-volatile Flash disk.
Oh, so you are now recalling that Flash cards may be used NOT ONLY during the computer's startup!!!
But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as a Flash disk, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?
Here 16MB/s of the eFlash 4000 and full random access to any address of its one or two megabyte of the Flash memory go far beyond other Flash solutions.
Isn't the Algor/Romulus memory access sequential only? Does it have to the 64kB of Flash memory be read before getting to the last word of each Algor/Romulus memory page?
If yes, this would mean that average random access to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is at the level of ca. 88 kilobytes per second. Compare it with 16 megabytes per second, the average random access in the eFlash 4000 card! :-D
The Algor PRO has 1MB of flash memory.
As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?
Quoting your words: 'There is a difference between providing something and merely "planning".'
> I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?
I've been in contact with the Frieden brothers several times and they suppose it is possible.
If now OS4 Kickstart files prove to be too large for 0.5MB in Algor/Romulus Flash, will E3B make Frieden brothers guilty of that? :-o
Looks like Elbox and Individual had long known that 0.5 MB is not enough.
The Algor was rated with 6/6,
the Romulus got 5,5/6,
the eFlash 5/6,
the KickFlash 4/6
I will never ever understand, why the eFlash still got 5/6 (must have something to do with Elbox advertising in the mag on a full cover page?)
Do you suggest that the Amiga Plus test is not objective and honest? :-o
If yes, it means that Algor's ranking is not objective and honest, as well.
Maybe you two, you and your friend from E3B, got in touch with someone from this German mag so that he praised your products? Well, it's probably cheaper than sponsoring a magazine by buying advertising space.
In this way even an obsolete USB1.1-standard controller (it means without the Hi-Speed mode) may be easily made a high-end unit in any test, just let the tester pretend that he had never heard of any other USB standard. :-)
BTW Does the Kickflash producer not gives its advertising in Amiga Plus?
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@tjaoz
Is your head so small that only E3B cliches may find room there, like that: "Speed never does matter"?
When producers of computer USB cards stopped producing USB 1.1 controllers, replacing them with Hi-Speed USB 2.0 units, he started releasing USB 1.1 controllers (Highway/Subway/Algor). You know: For E3B products "Speed never does matter."
Flash card designed to speed up booting and to allow USB stack to be launched even before OS has started is not an USB controller. It doesn't need the speed.
But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as a Flash disk, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?
a) To allow USB stack to launch even before OS has loaded: Namely to allow use to USB keyboards, mice and mass storage.
b) To remove the need to have an extra reboot when using OS 3.5/3.9 (Remove the need to wait for hard disk to spin up, boot, load startup-sequence, start SetPatch, reboot, wait HD become available again and continue booting)
These are the main functions of Algor/Romulus afaik.
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@Piru
Sorry, but your a), b), c) have nothing to do with the question, to which you responded.
The question was:
But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as ***a Flash disk***, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?
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@tjaoz
Why would anyone want to replace harddisk with slower, smaller capacity and shorter lifetime flash disk?
Noise? Today's HDs are really quiet. Typically PSU fan makes more noise.
Seek time? Doesn't compensate the slow read/write speed. RAM: and RAD: are way faster anyway.
Removable & easy to pick with you? Well, I wouldn't call Zorro card removeble media... HD on removable HD rack makes much more sense.
I'm sorry but this flash disk usage doesn't just make any sense.
The only sensible use I can think of is holding extra ROM modules / new kickstart and/or drivers. That way system can be expanded to allow it to use special HW even before system itself boots up (USB devices for example). That doesn't involve flash disk.
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The point is to have support for big drives and filesystems, as well as USB (HID, storage) at boot time. What is the point of wasting a zorro slot on a card with as limited features as the eflash? I dont get it, these days one should rather create multipurpose cards like the algor and catweasel.
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I can see more uses for a flash card even though getting ridd of reboots and getting USB at start is the main reason why I've ordered one. Things like a way to add a security block to the system that's not easily overriddne by the early startup menu to mention one... another "lamer" thing would be to add sound on startup like the A1000 and other systems have... bootpictures etc.
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@brian
Which card do you have, and are you satisfied with it?
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Which card do you have, and are you satisfied with it?
I have both the Kickflash *AND* Algor. I must say, both are class products. I'd highly recomend either. I can't comment on the eFlash though, I already own 2 superior products:-)
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Piru wrote:
b) To remove the need to have an extra reboot when using OS 3.5/3.9 (Remove the need to wait for hard disk to spin up, boot, load startup-sequence, start SetPatch, reboot, wait HD become available again and continue booting)
Off topic (but then again, what was the topic here?). Does the Algor/Romulous really boot before the drives are spinned/scanned? I thought there was no way around this. (ie. the system has to scan devices looking for boot information (priority, etc.). Does the Algor totally bypass this including early startup? Or does it just look like another bootable device.
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Yup, all the flashrom cards work before booting off the HD..
It`s all part of the autoconfig, scanning for expansion roms (normally found on things like SCSI controllers or accelerators) and then running it`s startup code..at this point the Amiga doesn`t even know what a drive is, let alone knowing if it wants to boot it or not.
Nothing is actually bypassed, it`s all still there..
Think of it as a reprogrammable kickstart chip, and not a drive and you`ll get the idea.
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> Things like a way to add a security block to the system that's not easily overriddne by the early startup menu to mention one... another "lamer" thing would be to add sound on startup like the A1000 and other systems have...
Algor/Romulus software has this. The Sentinel software is a password protection system to lock your computer from unauthorized users. It can be either used synchroneously (the computer will stop booting until the correct password has been entered) or asynchroneously (it will continue to boot, though the screen is locked until you pass Sentinel.
Edit: Ah yes, the Algor also comes with modules to *disable* the bootmenu completely, if you like. This speeds up booting and protects you from the user selecting other booting devices.
Also, BlizKick modules like the A1000 startup sound are included. The Algor comes with an bootintro for the card, nothing keeps you from doing your own.
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> Off topic (but then again, what was the topic here?).
It's not off-topic, I think.
>Does the Algor/Romulous really boot before the drives are spinned/scanned?
Yes, the Zorro cards are initialized straight after expansion and exec.library, hence this is one of the very first actions the Kickstart ROM does.
Hence, it could *also* add virtual drives from the FlashROM to the list of devices. In fact, the installation disk (880KB) is held in FlashROM as a module, which will pop up automatically on booting with the Algor inserted the first time (no other FlashROM solution has this).
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> But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as ***a Flash disk***, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?
The point is: There are several people that are using CF-IDE-Adapters that are not faster than aprox. 2MB/sec on the internal controller. Do they care about the speed? No. Do they care about the power and the noise? Yes.
The point is: Even the 1MB or 2MB of the eFlash is ridiculously small to hold a complete booting partition, so this point is moot. And hence, this 1 or 2MB of data will be read in at no time (it might even go into caches soon enough, just to compensate for your silly speed argument). So actually, having a filesystem on FlashROM of that size does not make any sense on *any* flashrom solution, regardless of the access speed. This might look different with the 1GB module for the KickFlash. There, it obviously makes sense to have a filesystem.
The point is: Elbox does not include any software for that theoretical flashdisk. Even their booting off their PCI USB card does not work, even though the card is advertised with that feature.
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Okay, so can someone tell me in a nutshell, assuming those 1gb modules come out for the kickflash, what can I use that 1gb for? Does it add to available system ram for any program to use?
Or is it just device, like a rad: disk. If this is the case, can I dump a lot of stuff in thee and it will survive a power off or reset? Could be useful for projects in progress.
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Hi ray :-)
The kickflash 1Gb module is said to be a sort of "ram disk", application would be to have a non volatile ram disk (it is a flashrom after all ;-) ) you would like to use for some kiosk or stb style boxes.
in an interactive device with touch screen, per example, it would replace entirely the hard drive (no need for one in such device, and 1Gb is sufficient for most applications and theirs datas and you don't have to write to disk), and thus will permit a totally silent device, without forgetting the gain on power comsomption.
Another BIG interest for this is it's TOTAL immunity to Viruses, as a flashrom can be made electricaly NOT WRITABLE by a simple jumper or keyswitch :-)
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@ Voxel:
Aaaaahhhh now I understand. So tell me, can I select whether I boot with the Kickflash or not? Because what I thought of doing is making a non-volatile System Disk to use in case for example my HD RDB gets eaten or otherwise made inoperable?
So in day to day operations I just boot normally (I got 3.1) but if it all falls apart I have a nice System disk in reserve in ROM. Can I do that, assuming the 1gb rom module comes out?
Nice to hear from you again, by the way
:-)
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@tjaoz:
[off-topic BS skipped]
BTW: Whenever it comes to facts, you gladly seem to ignore them. Although this is no new observance, I find it nice of you to admit your defeat this way, over and over again :-D
>Here 16MB/s of the eFlash 4000 and full random access to any address of its one or two megabyte of the Flash memory go far beyond other Flash solutions.
So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing. But of course you know this already.
> Isn't the Algor/Romulus memory access sequential only? Does it have to the 64kB of Flash memory be read before getting to the last word of each Algor/Romulus memory page?
You're talking BS again, little Rat. Why don't you simply admit that you don't have a single clue about how Flash memory works, especially on the Algor? The Algor has full random access (bytes, words, longwords) within a window of 4 KB. The Algor flashrom can be read at full Zorro II speed (2.8MB/sec).
> If yes, this would mean that average random access to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is at the level of ca. 88 kilobytes per second.
If you had a brain, this would mean that something went utterly wrong at some point of your life...
> As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?
No, it isn't. It is in production (delayed by some health problems). Users already have recieved Luciferin V1.6, which fully supports the Algor PRO. Hence, the software is ready for weeks now, only the cards have to be shipped.
> If now OS4 Kickstart files prove to be too large for 0.5MB in Algor/Romulus Flash, will E3B make Frieden brothers guilty of that?
Another lame attempt to twist my words. I said that the Friedens and E3B have an agreement and they will keep it. It is none of your business, how it will be implemented.
> Looks like Elbox and Individual had long known that 0.5 MB is not enough.
For the eFlash board providing *only* a flashrom feature wasting a complete Zorro III slot, this is a very poor result (the KickFlash at least has got an additional clockport which the eFlash lacks). The Algor was developed AND released more than a year ago (!), and its flashrom capabilities were only a nice bonus (the main purpose was to provide a fast USB controller) -- and STILL its features and product quality are not beaten by other products, especially not by the eFlash, which comes with three command line tools only for basic reading and writing the flashrom and NO documentation.
As for the rest of your (off-topic) message: cut the crap. This is getting pathological. Every reader of the review will make up their minds themselves and will wonder about how the card still could get 5 out of 6 points.
Anyway, you never will acknowledge that compared to the other solutions, the eFlash clearly loses the competition, so any further arguments are in vain (as usually). And if you weren't stating your BS so obviously, people might be believing you more easily. But by now, everybody knows who pays you for this. :-P
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hello x-ray :-)
when that extension will be availlable, all you'll have to do for this will be setting it's boot priority a little lower than your HardDrive boot partition, so if the HD is unable to boot, the flashdisk will boot at it's place automagically :-)
now let's see what kind of "flashdisk.device" will be included with that extension :-)
q- Nice to hear from you again, by the way
:-) I've been very busy with my job(s) latelly, away from my beloved Amiga :-)
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If possible booting with the 1gb kickflash my dh0: partition, for example copying all my bootable partition to the kickflash =)
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@voxel
The kickflash 1Gb module is said to be a sort of "ram disk", application would be to have a non volatile ram disk (it is a flashrom after all ) you would like to use for some kiosk or stb style boxes.
I would not count on Individuals to ever make that mythological 1GB Flash disk connected to clock port.
A much better Flash disk for Amiga comes from connecting any Compact Flash (16MB to 6GB) card through the CF-IDE adapter to the IDE port. Those CF to IDE adaptors are available on ebay for around $6, look here (http://search.ebay.com/cf-ide_W0QQsokeywordredirectZ1QQsonewuserZ1).
Connecting Compact Flash memory through the 16-bit IDE port has a number of advantages over connecting Flash memory to the clock port (that is through the 8-bit data bus and 4 address lines only!).
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I would not count on Individuals to ever make that mythological 1GB Flash disk connected to clock port.
Why must you spread FUD against your competitors? You want Mythological? The Shark is mythological.
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@platon42
BTW: Whenever it comes to facts, you gladly seem to ignore them.
It is you, who is all the time casting false suspicions, and when I prove they are false, you change the subject matter.
So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing.
This is what you want others to believe. You know why? Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable. So you have to pretend that Flash memory reading different from sequential is not necessary in Amiga. :-D
You're talking BS again, little Rat. Why don't you simply admit that you don't have a single clue about how Flash memory works, especially on the Algor? The Algor has full random access (bytes, words, longwords) within a window of 4 KB. The Algor flashrom can be read at full Zorro II speed (2.8MB/sec).
It is not true.
Random read access to Flash in E3 products CANNOT work at Zorro II full speed. To make this speed possible, even in the quoted by you 4KB window range, at least 12 Amiga address lines should be connected to the Flash. This is not the fact!
Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!
What does it mean?
Address lines of the Flash memory in E3B cards are controlled not directly from Amiga, but indirectly through CPLD circuit. With this indirect control, 2 addressing methods could have been used:
1. The CPLD circuit generates sequentially Flash addresses, incrementing the internal address counter at each successive reading.
2. Access to the selected Flash memory location requires two steps: firstly--writing the address of the location (which you want to read from Flash) to the CPLD circuit, secondly--reading the Flash memory in the next access to the Zorro card.
If E3B chose the first option, read access depends on how far from the beginning of the 4KB page area the read location is located. For example, to read the 1000th word of the Flash page, additional 999 technical readings are necessary only for incrementing the CPLD address counter. With this solution, average random read time of Algor/Romulus Flash memory is 2.8 kilobytes/s :lol:
In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window. In the next command, this location can be read. Here, average random read time to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is half of the Zorro II speed.
As the speed issue makes you so nervous, it looks like E3B decided on the first method. :-D
> As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?
the software is ready for weeks now, only the cards have to be shipped.
Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.
For the eFlash board providing *only* a flashrom feature wasting a complete Zorro III slot, this is a very poor result (the KickFlash at least has got an additional clockport which the eFlash lacks). The Algor was developed AND released more than a year ago (!), and its flashrom capabilities were only a nice bonus (the main purpose was to provide a fast USB controller) -- and STILL its features and product quality are not beaten by other products, especially not by the eFlash
The quality of hardware of the Flash part of the Algor/Romulus cards is beaten by the Eflash 4000 hardware MANY times.
In ALL fields, the eFlash 4000 hardware is better:
1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.
2. eFlash is equipped with hardware protection against unwanted reprogramming, which is very important because Flash memories have limited reprogramming cycles amount. When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.
3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.
I do not have to comment that the Algor's edge connector is not gold-plated, which in itself eliminates that product in the very beginning.
As regards your "fast" USB controller", it's a bit exaggeration. Algor is an old-fashioned obsolete USB 1.1 standard controller.
And if you weren't stating your BS so obviously, people might be believing you more easily. But by now, everybody knows who pays you for this.
Yesterday you suggested here that the German Amiga Plus mag was bribed by someone, and today you are suggesting that I was bribed.
The most funniest thing in all this is that you are being fed by E3B. :lol:
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Oh children, behave....
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My godness. While I spent two weeks in hospital, my friend Ratty is back again... well. I didn't expect fair behaviour from Elbox, so what.
This is what you want others to believe. You know why? Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable.
Ah. Really. Unfortunately your idea of the access method used in ALGOR / ROMulus is wrong. Anyhow, in the outcome of this "unusable design" both ALGOR and ROMulus clearly won the AmigaPlus comparison test... they wrote that it even "outclassed the competitors" (page 27).
Good result for a "messed up and unusable design", don't you think?
Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!
Haha. This is a good one. You know, ROMulus is located on both the HIGHWAY clockport and the expansion port.
I'm astonished that you made such a mistake while doing backward engineering.
Please download the HIGHWAY manual from my website and do your homework properly.
And, for exercising mathematics, clockports have four (4) address lines, namely A[5:2]. You know, one less than you have fingers on one hand.
In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window.
Moreover, a good one. Get back to Elbox laboratory and do some more backward engineering. You are wrong here, sorry.
Oh, BTW, doesn't a PCI solution from a Polnish company use exactly the banking technique you are describing here?
Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.
So the box here which arrived from the production line with ALGOR PROs must be a hoax, eh? Unfortunately I had to spend some time in hospital, so everything is delayed.
Finally, Ratty, you didn't improve. Badly done, your research. You should do better...
Anyhow, some remarks on the eFlash, just by looking at the picture in the AmigaPlus magazine:
- If speed really matters, how does it come that it doesn't support Zorro III burst mode (which is highly recommended in the spec for memory boards)? /MTCR and /MTACK lines are both missing.
- Why are the busdrivers for the data bus missing? The Macronix MX29F400 chips are not providing the required 64mA driving power on low side (according to the MX data sheet they make 2mA).
- Why is no /BERR handling included? This is mandatory for all Zorro II and III cards after the spec, to protect both expansion cards and motherboard logic from bus contention situations.
If I take the last two points, missing data bus drivers and no bus error protection... that's a "clean" design... in a heavily loaded backplane a single bus error condition could simply blast the eFlash memory chips...
One might even say that with these two clear violations of the Zorro III spec the eFlash4000 is not a Zorro III card, but something else.
Michael
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1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.
And a PCI busboard that won`t work without a GFX card isnt a hack?
The point is,who cares if it is a "hack", as long as it works..
3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.
Who in their right mind would actually need to reflash the memory 10,000 times let alone 100,000??
Wanna use it as a flash disk? Better to get a CF/IDE adapter and a CF card.
The most funniest thing in all this is that you are being fed by E3B. :lol:
At least he`s open about being paid by E3B for his work.
Funny that Tjaoz, cos the only posts you ever make on Amiga.org are to promote Elbox`s products and slag off their competitors products. Do you get paid by your post count, or are you on a salary?
Sometimes you`re like a parrot, "its only USB1.1..Squawk...Slow..Squawk..Obsolete"
So what if it is, ever thought that`s all some people might need??
Do you really think people care about a bootup being 0.3 seconds slower? (or whatever it was)
Can`t everyone just stop these stupid p###ing contests?
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Hi michael :-)
Nice to see you have recovered well :-D
Ha! a small question for you : it would be possible to make an extension like the 1Gb Individual's one for the Algor? Am I wrong? would it be possible you make such extension in a near future? a bootable one of course :-)
BTW, it's time to lay some rat traps around, don't you think ;-)
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tjaoz wrote:
When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.
So you recommend not to use the Algor in combination with any Elbox-products ? :shocked: :shocked:
/me goes and hides in a deep deep hole ....
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When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.
So you recommend not to use the Algor in combination with any Elbox-products ?
C'mon... Elbox products and drivers don't contain malicious viruses... They're malicious FEATURES. See the difference? :lol:
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q:
Elbox products and drivers don't contain malicious viruses... They're malicious FEATURES. See the difference?
q:
Viruses or malicious features are both illegal in most of the countries and can lead their author in jail with huges fines to pay.
Perhaps we can send EvilBill in prison for spreading the biggest virus of the world? ;-) :roflmao:
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Ah. One thing I did forget to comment on, Ratty:
Eflash 4000 is a clear Flash memory design. The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area. It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.
.
Well, the MX FlashROM chips are 64kB sectored (besides the boot section, which is (32/8/8/16 kB). If you implement a random access file system there, guess what happens?
For changing one (1) bit of data, you have to do the following:
- read the whole 64kB FlashROM to a RAM location
- alter the bit you want to change in RAM
- do a SectorErase command on the FlashROM (timed by the FlashROM, cannot be influenced or made faster)
- write the whole 64kB RAM mirror back to flash, and in this case, word by word, with data bus polling after each write access to verify that the FlashROM did finish its cycle.
So. Let's count some cycles (you may use your fingers here, but keep in mind, five at one hand):
- 64*1024 read cycles from FlashROM
- 64*1024 write cycles to RAM
- 1 read cycle from RAM
- 1 write cycle to RAM
- 64*1024 read cycles from RAM
- 64*1024 write cycles to FlashROM
- 4*64*1024 read cycles from FlashROM (assuming that you have to poll four times only, which is optimistic)
This yields in approx 512k cycles; let's assume that the CPU is only occupied with changing your one bit, and nobody else likes to do something on the Zorro III bus. Take the time of 250ns for one access to both FlashROM and RAM, and 100ns in between cycles (the fastest Zorro III board I know of needs 190ns for one write access, namely the Picasso IV with Buster 11). So one access costs us 350ns.
We will need for the whole operation, if we only calculate the read/write times, forget about the self timed sector erase operation and omit all housekeeping of the filesystem, in total a time of 0.18sec. For writing one (1) bit.
In case of changing one byte we end up with random access times in writing of 0.18 Byte/s, or 180 miliByte/s :)
Pfuh. Looks like something completely useful... and this is what you are calling "fast random access"?
In case of the ALGOR / ROMulus, we have Atmel FlashROMs with 256byte sectors, and an internal write buffer of 256byte RAM, which means that you can do a "normal" write of 256bytes to the FlashROM, followed by a ProgramSector operation.
You may do the calculation for this case (change one byte in random access) as some exercise. And you may take your shoes of, if you run out of fingers, and effectively double your data bus width by this hack :)
Michael
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mboehmer_e3b wrote:
...
We will need for the whole operation, if we only calculate the read/write times, forget about the self timed sector erase operation and omit all housekeeping of the filesystem, in total a time of 0.18sec. For writing one (1) bit.
In case of changing one byte we end up with random access times in writing of 0.18 Byte/s, or 180 miliByte/s :)
:lol: Any faster and the machine would implode, its casing physically sucked into the vortex left in the near relatavistic data transfer's prodigious wake...
Seriously, I doubt that were such a random IO mechanism designed that it would be implemented in such a way. Unless made by MS or something.
Surely the mirrored area would be kept in RAM and then the rom area updated after a sufficient amount of it had been modified, or some time interval elapsed, whichever happened sooner.
All this talk of using a flashrom as a sort of reusable hard disk replacement sounds pretty stupid to me - don't these things have a limited number of write cycles anyway :-?
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Seriously, I doubt that were such a random IO mechanism designed that it would be implemented in such a way. Unless made by MS or something.
It's not MS, unfortunately, it's originating from the FlashROM technology itself. You must erase one sector before you can write to it, as you (in simple words) discharge all cells to 0xff when erasing, and charge single cells when writing. You cannot discharge single bit cells, so FlashROMs are somehow like old EPROMs - they were discharged by UV light, and charged while programming, with no possibility to remove the stored charge from the floating gate (but exposing the whole die to UV light).
Surely the mirrored area would be kept in RAM and then the rom area updated after a sufficient amount of it had been modified, or some time interval elapsed, whichever happened sooner.
In principle this would work, but then you have a RAM disk, and you will be better workig with RAD: :)
With the possibility to crash the machine at any time, or switch it off or reset it, you cannot gurantee data integrity with such a RAM / FlashROM mirroring.
In embedded systems such things are sometimes done, but only with small sectored FlashROMs. There are Linux versions supporting such jffs file systems.
With FlashROM cards things are different, as they usually have a serial interface and allow erasing single cells. This technique is also used in modern FlashROM based microcontroller chips.
Michael
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mboehmer_e3b wrote:
It's not MS, unfortunately, it's originating from the FlashROM technology itself...
I get you :-)
Surely the mirrored area would be kept in RAM and then the rom area updated after a sufficient amount of it had been modified, or some time interval elapsed, whichever happened sooner.
In principle this would work, but then you have a RAM disk, and you will be better workig with RAD: :)
Well, a RAD: that supports a power down and not just a reboot. Not a totally useless idea ;-)
With the possibility to crash the machine at any time, or switch it off or reset it, you cannot gurantee data integrity with such a RAM / FlashROM mirroring.
Very true, but I don't see that any other storage devices have a better time. You can crash or reset before all your system buffers were flushed to your hard disk etc. It's a bit worse for the flashrom case assuming you mirror all of it and not just a few pages as some sort of write cache buffer.
Anyway, I'm not taking the "flashrom as disk" idea too seriously, but I don't think any serious attempt would work in the method described, not if 0.18mB/s was the theoretical max ;-)
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What an interesting thread!
I must admit that I haven't read the article in the Amiga Plus magazine yet, but will do as soon as I return to Germany in a little over two weeks. Got to find out what the bad rating originates from, as there's nothing that the author of the test has mentioned to be "not working" while he was in constant feedback with lots of detailed questions about the product. I'll address everything he critisizes, and put it into consideration for the next software update.
Another interesting idea I took from this thread is the boot priority thing for the 1G expansion. That's a great thing to add, and I'll keep that in mind. If somehow possible, I will add a jumper-like connector that lets you override the boot priority setting in the RDB and set it to an alternative level that's set in the flashrom (can be higher or lower, whatever your needs are).
Further, I'd like to mention that the 1G expansion will also work on E3B's products, as it'll use the normal clockport lines. Yes, we're competitors, but we also understand how to cooperate for the customer's convenience. If someone has a highway with Romulus, he should not be forced to buy a Kickflash if he also wants the 1G expansion.
As for it being vaporware at this point, I have to admit that I am only one person that's currently completely busy doing two other projects. Bear with me, as soon as the Catweasel MK4 production is running, I have time for other things. For now, the focus is on *finishing* things and get them onto the shelves for Xmas business.
Now back on topic: All the feedback I've had from Kickflash customers was positive. Of course, my opinion is biased, but I'd say cou can't go wrong with Kickflash, neither for functionality, nor price, nor expandability.
Jens Schoenfeld
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Hi jens :-)
What a good news! your 1Gb extension usable on the Algor/Romulus cards! Yeepee :-D
It would be cool too to have a jumper/keyswitch to control it's flashrom write protect mode :-)
I can't wait for it! (in fact I will wait patiently, as ever ;-)
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@tjaoz
If you ARE associated with Elbox, then you're fast putting me off buying any of their products. You've turned my favourite forum into a battleground for seemingly no good reason. The poor guy who made the original post in this thread is probably none the wiser, if not more confused.
Sentiment is very important in business (believe it or not), and you're portraying Elbox in a very bad light at the moment.
Seems as if you're shooting yourself in the foot, if you're intention was to get people to buy your products.
Just my thr'penny's worth
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@mboehmer_e3b
My godness. While I spent two weeks in hospital, my friend Ratty is back again... well. I didn't expect fair behaviour from Elbox, so what.
Poor Michael, good to know you are back to the net.
Unfortunately, your hospital stay did not work a lot, you still exhibit symptoms of some type of mental disorder called paranoid schizophrenia and you hear Elbox voices everywhere.
It looks like you need more treatment... :-D
Haha. This is a good one. You know, ROMulus is located on both the HIGHWAY clockport and the expansion port. I'm astonished that you made such a mistake while doing backward engineering. Please download the HIGHWAY manual from my website and do your homework properly. And, for exercising mathematics, clockports have four (4) address lines, namely A[5:2]. You know, one less than you have fingers on one hand.
How many address lines there are in the clock port is of no relevance. There is not a single address line in the clock port which would not be in the expansion port. Their numbers do not sum up, as they are exactly the same address lines.
So there are no 12 different address lines, so it is too few of them to make Algor/Romulus Flash memory having random average speed (even in the 4KB page) at the Zorro II speed level. Period.
> In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window.
You are wrong here, sorry.
Hehe, that's what I thought. As the read speed issue makes your friend Chris so nervous, it looks like you had decided for the first method: "1. The CPLD circuit generates sequentially Flash addresses, incrementing the internal address counter at each successive reading."
With this solution, average random read speed of Algor/Romulus Flash memory is 2.8 kilobytes/s. :lol:
Anyhow, some remarks on the eFlash, just by looking at the picture in the AmigaPlus magazine:
Really humorous how much you worry about Elbox making an interface faster than 16MB/s, while your own interface is SEVERAL times slower. :-)
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@Doobrey
Who in their right mind would actually need to reflash the memory 10,000 times let alone 100,000??
When the Flash card is hardware protected against unwanted writing, it is not important so much. What about when the card does not have such protection?! Algor and Romulus do not have it!
At least he`s open about being paid by E3B for his work.
Funny that Tjaoz, cos the only posts you ever make on Amiga.org are to promote Elbox`s products and slag off their competitors products. Do you get paid by your post count, or are you on a salary?
I have nothing to do with Elbox, sorry.
I'm Hodges' client. Hodges cancelled my Poseidon keys which I bought from him. He did it after I wrote in a Highway ML that there was an error in the specs of the product by his friend Michel (E3B). At the same time, his friend Michael Boehmer sent me private messages with threats. All in all, I was cheated by Hodges, plus I am all the time attacked and offended by him and his friend Michael. I do not like Hodges' way of doing business. I thought if he cancelled your key for which you had paid, you would be the same more critical about his behaviour. By the way, he is attacking me and offending whenever he can. :pissed:
I do not hide the fact that I have many of Elbox products. I value them very much and I have enough courage to speak about it although I know I am going against a small group of fanatic enemies of Elbox, who see Elbox as competition to their favourites.
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Is there the slightest risk that this thread might get back on topic this year?
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Karlos
Anyway, I'm not taking the "flashrom as disk" idea too seriously, but I don't think any serious attempt would work in the method described, not if 0.18mB/s was the theoretical max
Theorethical max? Rather theoretical min.
Michael tried to calculate write speed assuming that the whole sector must be rewritten only because he want to modify one bit. As you properly noted, he completely forgot that data caching may be used in such situations.
BTW. His calculations are wrong. eFlash 4000/1MB uses two MX29F400 memories connected to 16 data lines each. These chips work in the 16-bit mode then. In this mode MX29F400 sectors need 4k, 8k, 16k or 32k writes, but never 64k as Michael assumed. (MX29F400 datasheet is here (http://www.mxic.com.tw/QuickPlace/hq/PageLibrary48256D9D002BA613.nsf/h_E800A46B2447112B48256DC60024E4CF/CB2F9713E672CBD248256E0D003815DB/$File/MX29LV400T-B-1.8.pdf).)
Anyway it is clear that write time to the Flash is much slower than its read time, so using it as RAM is pointless. However, it is good to use it as a super fast hard drive (with zero seek time), where data may be stored, which do not require frequent modifications, and which are needed to be accessed (read) very fast, like password lists, key lists, signatures (including photos) or other personal data.
Anyway, I think that everyone can think about a number of reasonable applications for this fast, noiseless disk.
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@tjaoz:
Well, you are from Poland. You are from Krakow. You show up only in Elbox related threads. You badmouth everything that is competing with Elbox's products. By all means you stink of Elbox stench. I'm sorry. You may not work for them, but you are highly annoying and I feel like throwing up every time I see your post.
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Is there the slightest risk that this thread might get back on topic this year?
As long as Ratty is doing his FUD war and trolling here... I think no, unfortunately.
You know, talking about facts is not his issue. Just look at his answers: he ignores all facts, all questions and is repeating his assumptions and rumours. And as he is running out of arguments he is returning to the Poseidon key issue which is *completely* off topic here.
It is sad to see such things here, but obviously one has to live with him.
Michael
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mboehmer_e3b wrote:
As long as Ratty is doing his FUD war and trolling here... I think no, unfortunately.
You know, talking about facts is not his issue. Just look at his answers: he ignores all facts, all questions and is repeating his assumptions and rumours. And as he is running out of arguments he is returning to the Poseidon key issue which is *completely* off topic here.
It is sad to see such things here, but obviously one has to live with him.
This is completely true. In ever single news posting or major thread related to the Prometheus Rat(aka Tjoaz) will show up and spread untrue information. It's not limited to Prometheus though, it's any product that competes with an Elbox product. As others have mentioned, the only time he posts to Amiga.org, ANN, AW.net or anywhere else is to slander competing products. Luckily many are seeing him for what he is.
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Well, so some more feed for the troll. Or better, some more facts to ignore for him... but as he was so kind to give a link to the datasheet which is falsifying his arguments (I love this word, even if its from Elbox :)
These chips work in the 16-bit mode then. In this mode MX29F400 sectors need 4k, 8k, 16k or 32k writes , but never 64k as Michael assumed.
In 16bit mode you get to a doubled worst case rate of 360miliByte. Fine.
Unfortunately only the data strobe line /DS3 is connected to the eFlash4000, so you will have to write both FlashROM chips everytime (the /DS1 which would be needed to distinguish between word and long word accesses, i.e. between writing the one or the other FlashROM).
Almost all sectors (7 of 8) are 64kB sized, so the 8kB, 16kB and 32kB sectors are not really relevant.
For those technically interested: take a look at Dave Haynies Zorro III spec (http://www.thule.no/haynie/zorroiii/docs/zorro3.pdf). You can find pinouts of the Zorro III connector there to check for yourself, namely /BERR and /DS1 lines.
As you properly noted, he completely forgot that data caching may be used in such situations.
Using data caching is possible, as I also stated, but in a situation like the Amiga system, where no memory protection is available, increasing the sync times between RAM to FlashROM transfers will increase speed of the disk, but also the danger of inconsistencies between RAM and FlashROM. And with decreasing this sync time you end up in my calculation.
If you want to experience what I mean: just write a bunch of data to your system hard disk and reset while writing. You may do such jokes with a journaling file system, but not conventional ones.
Michael
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tjaoz wrote:
How many address lines there are in the clock port is of no relevance. There is not a single address line in the clock port which would not be in the expansion port. Their numbers do not sum up, as they are exactly the same address lines.
Hi tjaoz, seeing as you`re struggling, here`s a clue..
The Highway has a firmware update before putting the Romulus on it..
Anyway, since the Highway isn`t made anymore and it`s sucessor the Algor doesn`t have a clockport,your arguements are like a broken pencil...pointless.
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Actually, I didn't want to feed the troll, but Rats seem to find their "food" anyway.
tjaoz wrote:
It is you [...]
Welcome to the kindergarden. "No!!! It's you!" as usually.
So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing.
This is what you want others to believe. You know why? Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable.
Liar.
It is not true.
It is. Liar.
To make this speed possible, even in the quoted by you 4KB window range, at least 12 Amiga address lines should be connected to the Flash. This is not the fact!
It is. Liar.
Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!
You have no idea. You're trying to tell Michael, who built the hardware and me, who wrote the software how the thing works? And you are talking about mental disorders? :laughing:
[Rest of stupidity skipped]
Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.
For the first eFlash 4000, Elbox took multiple months to actually deliver it -- even after they claimed, it would be available. Is there any customer of the eFlash 4000 2MB yet? I wonder.
The shipment Algor PRO boards has been delayed due to Michael going into hospital, which was officially announced right after this was clear. Elbox never ever posts any delays, it just silently doesn't deliver.
The quality of hardware of the Flash part of the Algor/Romulus cards is beaten by the Eflash 4000 hardware MANY times.
Argument and proof?
1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.
Why? Proof? Zero points. Anyone looking at the eFlash with some knowledge of hardware design will immediately notice that it is not a clean design at all. No need to repeat the facts Michael has given.
2. eFlash is equipped with hardware protection against unwanted reprogramming, which is very important because Flash memories have limited reprogramming cycles amount.
FlashRoms cannot be written directly, but need a special programming cycle, which cannot be triggered by accident. Hence, user interaction is necessary. Zero points.
When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.
Your point is void. Each flashrom has to be written using a special vendor specific way. A virus would have to know exactly how to write itself into the flashrom for each different card. Also, just overwriting a block of the flashrom would not trigger it automatically. In case of the Algor/Highway, a checksum also has to be calculated (I'm not aware the eFlash has this). This makes it very hard to execute alien code, written into the flashrom accidentially or by malicious modification. And who would write such a special virus? (From Elbox' track record, I'd say, that with their reverse-engineering and trojan coding experience, this should be no problem for them). Zero points.
I have read in the review in the mag, that the eFlash can only be flashed with the hardware protection jumper disabled, but it will not execute the contents of the flashrom then -- now this pretty user unfriendly, if you only want to make quick tests.
3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.
The eFlash uses recycled and obsolete MACH chips that would start failing far before the flashroms reach their theoretical guaranteed flash times. These are minimum guaranteed times. Just calculate how many years you have to do constant flashing, until the *guaranteed* amount of cycles is reached? Zero points again.
I do not have to comment that the Algor's edge connector is not gold-plated, which in itself eliminates that product in the very beginning.
Why? Because before the connectors start wearing off (in 10 years?), the rest of the machine has fallen apart?
As regards your "fast" USB controller", it's a bit exaggeration. Algor is an old-fashioned obsolete USB 1.1 standard controller.
Getting off-topic again, huh? It reaches the same and faster transfer rates than the Spider with USB1.1 devices. 'Nuff said.
As a summary: All of your so-called "arguments" do not hold. Do cannot tell anything against my arguments that the software provided with the eFlash is a piece of sh*t. You cannot give any good reason, why one should favour a Zorro III board to a Zorro II board. Your hypothetical fast flashdisk is, well, hypothetical (and would be of no practical use on 1MB/2MB boards).
Better luck next time :laughing:
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Gentlemen, can we please exercise some restrain?
This bickering is not making either side look very good to the average buyer.
@tjaoz
I have to admit, whatever your agenda is, in the time I have been a member here I have yet to see you express an opinion on anything in the fora that isn't directly slamming a product that is in competition with an Elbox one.
This does not do much for your credibility, nor does arguing with the designers of a rival product over their implementation - you simply cannot know more about their product than they do. Quite why you take this approach is beyond me.
Perhaps both sides can simply explain the virtues of their product without mentioning their competition?
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Perhaps both sides can simply explain the virtues of their product without mentioning their competition?
That would be nice, unfortunately 1 party which I will not mention will not allow this. It would be unwise for companies to let a competitor's slander and lies go unchallenged.
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Back on topic. I just ordered a Kickflash from Vesalia. I can give a mini-review when it gets here if the OP wishes.
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Yes, Adolescent, I wanna know how it goes.
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Hm. Anyone seen Ratty lately? Did he run out of arguments, or has he been hit by a double dose of reality? :lol:
Michael
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@Karlos
I have to admit, whatever your agenda is, in the time I have been a member here I have yet to see you express an opinion on anything in the fora that isn't directly slamming a product that is in competition with an Elbox one.
This does not do much for your credibility, nor does arguing with the designers of a rival product over their implementation - you simply cannot know more about their product than they do. Quite why you take this approach is beyond me.
Perhaps both sides can simply explain the virtues of their product without mentioning their competition?
Hello Karlos,
Could you please make an extra effort and view this thread from its beginning and you will see who is attacking whom here and who bashes competitive products.
I only wrote a reply to JohnFante that if he had an A4000 (it means an Amiga with the Zorro III slots), he should rather purchase a Flash card in Zorro III and not Zorro II standard. Is it any attack against anybody for you?
Now you see what Hodges wrote to my post. Note the personally offensive and aggressive mood of Hodges comment. See how this boy speaks about products of another company. See his posts. With his aggressive posts, Hodges shows only that his hatred of Elbox has become a psycho illness.
As regards a 'rival product', I am not a producer but a USER of many Elbox products. I know from my experience how Elbox cares about the highest quality of these products, how they care about continuous updating of their software and how fast they respond to my emails sent to their support.
If you want to find people speaking here about 'rival product' check posts of Hodges and Boehmer. They ARE producers of Algor and Romulus. Algor/Romulus was not the topic of this thread BTW.
As regards my discussions about technical details of some products, I do not say I know them better than their designers. Some technical details are clearly visible even without any access to the product documentation. Their designers are not always willing to show these details, which are not comfortable for them. Please note that Michael Boehmer so far has not written how Flash memory addressing is executed in his product (method 1., method 2. or mix of 1. and 2.), and the actual read speed of this device HIGHLY depends on it.
As concerns always mentioning the competition products: It is the E3B habit, not Elbox. Below is a cite showing how Elbox responses (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/highway_usb/message/891) to the Boehmer attacks on Elbox products on the Highway ML:
"My proposal for you is thus: instead of speculating about our company and our hardware in this list, would you please concentrate on your own products and support for them. A mailing list like this one is not a place for disputes between companies."
Boehmer and Hodges often publicly attack Elbox and Elbox products. And they always cry that they do it only because they are attacked by Elbox, which is not the case. In all these discussions suddenly a few people appear (e.g. Kronos here), which are willing to bash Elbox. Usually they even do not know what is the thread subject.
@Redrumloa
If you use Amiga.org, and especially the "Amiga on eBay" section, as a place for advertising products, which you distribute, you should be honest in giving their features. It is not fair when you behave like a person who does not know his trade goods and makes up fiction features to these products. You did it in the "3 more products added Catweasel etc" (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10720) parallel thread, writing that Buddha "probably" supports PIO-3 or PIO-4, which is not true. In earlier discussions you spoke about features of the Prometheus cards, which are not available in the real world. Only in such cases I take note of the facts. Instead of feeling offended, you should rather thank me for helping you being reliable for your customers.
Sorry, no more responses today.
I'm going to see the match Wisla Krakow - Real Madrid. :-)
Jacek
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Sorry, no more responses today.
I'm going to see the match Wisla Krakow - Real Madrid.
Don't forget to update the Elbox site before you leave. May I suggest: "Free shipping to all Elbox products in our online store if Wisla wins!". :lol:
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writing that Buddha "probably" supports PIO-3 or PIO-4, which is not true.
And your point? The Buddha has settings for said modes. Your arguement was regarding speed which has nothing to do with the question. What's funny is people could use this same argument against several of your favorite products from a certain company that also happens to be in Krakow.
You must be projecting yourself onto others. :lol:
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tjaoz wrote:
@Karlos
I have to admit, whatever your agenda is, in the time I have been a member here I have yet to see you express an opinion on anything in the fora that isn't directly slamming a product that is in competition with an Elbox one.
This does not do much for your credibility, nor does arguing with the designers of a rival product over their implementation - you simply cannot know more about their product than they do. Quite why you take this approach is beyond me.
Perhaps both sides can simply explain the virtues of their product without mentioning their competition?
Hello Karlos,
Could you please make an extra effort and view this thread from its beginning and you will see who is attacking whom here and who bashes competitive products.
If I may offer an opinion - the point Karlos makes is a good one. Look at most posters on this site - they ask questions when they need help with hardware, software etc, and answer questions and help other people with such problems; many, but not all, of them post in the Coffee House forums about politics, humour, religion etc.
Go to the front page and do a search for tjaoz
It will list all the threads where tjaoz is mentioned. Some of them you haven't posted in, but look at the ones you have. [these are ALL the posts by you returned by that search]
"Kickflash experiences"
"Subway USB Availability?"
"This Amiga 4000D has a secret:-D" [thread about Prometheus]
"Mediator vs Prometheus"
"How quick are you? 6 Prometheus for $139 each on eBay."
"PCI for genuine 4000T"
"A mail from Elbox saying that they will make sure that the Algor card won't"
"just saw the worrying Poseidon news"
"Mysterious Hardware?!" [You plug Elbox in this thread]
"Shouldn't mem transfers for Mediators (orother brands) for A4000 be faster the equivalent A1200's??"
"Delphina Flipper...should i or?" [you suggest that lempkee should buy a Terratec soundcard instead]
"Why do I have to buy PoseidonUSB v2.x for Spider II from ELBOX?"
"Elbox's Spider II and Amithlon - caveat"
So there you go - Karlos was right. Have you EVER helped another user with their problems, other than suggesting they buy Elbox? Have you ever posted any interesting news? Have you ever talked about software or games? Ever talked about your favourite game or application, perhaps? Ever discussed operating systems, next-gen Amiga solutions? Maybe even posted your views on the war in Iraq or whatever in the Coffee House? NO!
Have you EVER EVER EVER posted anything on this site which isn't plugging Elbox and slagging everything else?
- Well the answer to that question is no. It appeared to me and probably a few other users that this was the case - but I put it to you that by actually reading your past posts it is quickly confirmed.
By mentioning football, in your last post, you have set a precedent. Feeling a little off-colour?
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tjaoz wrote:
Hello Karlos,
Could you please make an extra effort and view this thread from its beginning...
Who said I was specifically talking about this thread? As has been demonstrated, you crop up in any thread that has a possible elbox plug opportunity.
Now you see what Hodges wrote to my post. Note the personally offensive and aggressive mood of Hodges comment. See how this boy speaks about products of another company. See his posts. With his aggressive posts, Hodges shows only that his hatred of Elbox has become a psycho illness.
I also already pointed out that in the personal attack sense, youre as bad as each other once you both get going. Like "please miss, he started it..." schoolkids. Frickin grow up already.
As regards a 'rival product', I am not a producer but a USER of many Elbox products. I know from my experience how Elbox cares about the highest quality of these products, how they care about continuous updating of their software and how fast they respond to my emails sent to their support.
I never said you worked for elbox. I said you never fail to promote them and rubbish the competition at any given opportunity. Again, viewing your post history demonstrates this.
If you want to find people speaking here about 'rival product' check posts of Hodges and Boehmer. They ARE producers of Algor and Romulus. Algor/Romulus was not the topic of this thread BTW.
And at no point anywhere in this thread did you inferr their design was inferior to elbox's, right? :lol:
As regards my discussions about technical details of some products, I do not say I know them better than their designers...
Let actual testing confirm this, rather than simply assuming one is better than the other for whatever reason. Throwing techical info around and playing poker with numbers demonstrates absolutely nothing.
Boehmer and Hodges often publicly attack Elbox and Elbox products. And they always cry that they do it only because they are attacked by Elbox, which is not the case.
Unless you do start working for them :lol: ;-)
Sorry, no more responses today.
I'm going to see the match Wisla Krakow - Real Madrid. :-)
Good! It's reassuring to know you have other interests. Enjoy!
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@Cyberus
Did you bother to read all the threads you state tjaoz is attacking in? If you had, you'd see that in the "Subway USB Availability?" thread (mine BTW), Michael from E3B directly attacked tjaoz without provocation or reason. Tjaoz never even posted in the thread.
As was the thread posted by Acill "X-Surf II, what a scam...". Tjaoz is mentioned by E3B buddies, as well as off topic post slagging Elbox by voxel, yet tjaoz never said a peep. Also E3B plugs their product in this post. Is this not exactly what you're accusing tjaoz of doing?
It goes both ways here. I see Red doing it, tjaoz doing it, and E3B doing it. It appears some people just don't like Elbox and tjoaz so they take everything he says as untrue and an attack when in fact most is perfectly correct. (For instance, buddha vs. FastATA speed comparison in the "3 new products..." thread).
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adolescent wrote:
@Cyberus
Did you bother to read all the threads you state tjaoz is attacking in?
I didn't state tjaoz was attacking anywhere. Where do you get this from? Did you bother to read my post?
If you had, you'd see that in the "Subway USB Availability?" thread (mine BTW), Michael from E3B directly attacked tjaoz without provocation or reason. Tjaoz never even posted in the thread.
Fair enough, I stand corrected.
As was the thread posted by Acill "X-Surf II, what a scam...". Tjaoz is mentioned by E3B buddies, as well as off topic post slagging Elbox by voxel, yet tjaoz never said a peep. Also E3B plugs their product in this post. Is this not exactly what you're accusing tjaoz of doing?
I wasn't accusing tjaoz solely of plugging Elbox, but of seemingly never contributing anything except negativity to the forums. I was commenting on the fact that most regular users actually contribute something - but that tjaoz never feels the need to contribute anything unless Elbox or a rival are involved.
Once again I stand corrected as regards the thread though.
It goes both ways here. I see Red doing it,
But my point is that he contributes to the forums. Not EVERY single post he makes is slagging Elbox and promoting his products is it?
tjaoz doing it, and E3B doing it. It appears some people just don't like Elbox and tjoaz so they take everything he says as untrue and an attack when in fact most is perfectly correct. (For instance, buddha vs. FastATA speed comparison in the "3 new products..." thread).
I wasn't commenting on the validity of his statements, or lack thereof. I don't wish to commentate on something I know little about.
Once again - I was commenting on the fact that he never posts about anything else outside Elbox and its competitor's products. If you read my post you will see this is the case.
I can see that he has more people 'against him' than for him. But I'm not a bandwagon jumper. I supported DoomMaster before when he was taking flak, rather than join in the playground stuff :-)
I was merely making an observation, but not for any particular motive. I for one don't want to get drawn into silly arguments.
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I see Red doing it
Please don't put me in this category. I have never jumped into an Elbox thread trying to promote a product I sell.
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redrumloa wrote:
I see Red doing it
Please don't put me in this category. I have never jumped into an Elbox thread trying to promote a product I sell.
Never? Sure about that? Maybe you just don't like to admit it. 1 minute of searching and I found one.
"Are the Elbox tower and mediator products worth it?"
cough..cough...Prometheus...
ahem..cough.. announcement coming soon..
Cough..
Although, maybe you're not as forward as Chris and the E3B Buddies, you are quick to attack tjaoz's freedom of speech just as you are exersizing yours.
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"Are the Elbox tower and mediator products worth it?"
Oh wow, that was before I was even selling the Prometheus. I was only in talks with Matay. Ok I guess I can give you that one. So I've once done that.
you are quick to attack tjaoz's freedom of speech just as you are exersizing yours.
Attacking freedom of speech? That would mean I am trying to deny someone freedom of speech, that is not true. I have made no attempts to silence Elbox's spokesperson. Freedom of speech does not give someone the right to slander a competitor's product unchallenged though. I don't think it's suprising that people react to outright lies and slander.
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Hi Adolescent,
just a remark on this, to clarify the situation (and sorry for the long posting).
Although, maybe you're not as forward as Chris and the E3B Buddies, you are quick to attack tjaoz's freedom of speech just as you are exersizing yours.
Well, for me it is a difficult situation. On the one hand I try to keep out of discussions like these, but on the other hand I cannot sit and watch like someone (in this case Rat aka tjaoz) is attacking my work and my products by just spreading things which are not the truth. Even more, he did state that he doesn't own any of these products he's talking about, so he's talking about something he has no direct knowledge about.
If you take the time (decide your own, if it is worth it) and look closer on his posts, it is always the same way of proceeding:
- advertise Elb*x products
- claim that every competitor's product is of inferior quality
- give some pseudo technical explanations
- cite from former threads and mailings, but getting cites uncomplete or out of context
If this doesn't work out, then there are some further tricks:
- refer to bad Chris Hodges disabling his key
- claim that I'm the bad guy behind this action
- claim that I do attack him
- tell that people try to cut his freedom of speech
And, like this thread showed nicely again: if you confront him with clear questions on an issue, which doesn't fit into his point of view (in this case, technical "specialities" of some hardware), these questions are completely being ignored, and in turn, he returns to the last four points (key issue, bad Mr. E3B). Or, he will swap his opinion completely (like here, first advocating a superior fast FlashROM disk on the eFlash, then proposing to use IDE to CF adaptor which is far better).
If I look back in time, I see that I could have avoided all this troubles, discussions and FUD war by asking Chris Hodges not to open the Poseidon stack to other Classic Amiga hardware solutions. It was developped on E3B hardware from the beginning (SUBWAY, HIGHWAY), with strong cooperation and quite some work involved. Simply as that.
We decided (and I emphasize the word "we" in this context) to try a common effort and avoid the situation like it was with CyberGraphics and Picasso96, offering all Amiga Classic users one solution. We have now, as all Amiga Classic USB solutions are supported by one USB stack, and I would say that users did benefit from this quite a lot.
The outcome for me is not so amusing, as you can see on this thread. Especially one competitor offering a product which would be completely useless without Chris and my work is now hitting back whereever possible. For me, I have learned my lesson on this :(
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I must admit that I hardly ever read amiga.org, but Bill Borsari (Tekmage) has pointed me to a thread about the Catweasel when we met at Amiwest.
Now that I see this tjaoz guy bashng my products, I guess I'll have to stop by every once in a while and correct certain lies he's spreading. Especially issues about my products being of inferior quality (that was the parallel thread with Red's three new products) is simply 'not nice'.
To put it like this: I'm not happy about him doing this. It's on the edge to being upset. However, he had one point that Red got wrong, and that's the PIO mode setting. Buddha was never advertised to be PIO mode 3 or 4. The timings he quoted were correct, but his interpretation of the ATAX3T9 standard is wrong, because you don't only have to see the distance between two beginning cycles, but also the length of a single cycle.
One reason for the extraordinarily high degree of compatibility of the Buddha with all kinds of harddrives and CD-Roms is a result of this software-controllable timing, which no controller before and after the Buddha has ever had.
On the other hand, he's speaking about 'clean design'. Knowing that he has never released a product, he has no detailed knowledge of how to design hardware. Yet, he speaks about it as if his words are the unquestionabe truth. This doesn't really make him sympathetic, especially to the more educated readers.
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Tjaoz,
if you want to see clean designs, look at my products, look at E3B's products, check the Haynie archives, then compare to your favourite company and find lots of flaws.
I have to give you the point of Red mis-interpreting the Buddha speed settings. None of them is any faster that you *can* go with PIO mode 0. Still, some of the settings use extremely short access times in order to lengthen the precharge time between two accesses, so certain requirements of PIO mode 0 and 1 are violated. Only clean PIO mode 2 IDE devices work with all timing settings of the Buddha.
I do not know where this mistake of yours originated from. It might be your limited knowledge of hardware design, but it might also be your will to bash my product in order to make a competing one look better.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, since this is the first time I'm seeing you trash on me and my work which is appreciated all over the world and beyond the borders of the Amiga market. However, now that we found out that you have limited knowledge about the details of my products, I'm suggesting that you simply do not spread *any* information about my products, neither positive, nor negative, because it's most likely going to be wrong. If you feel that something must be said, you're free to contact me through eMail or my contact form to notify me of such things.
Jens Schoenfeld
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@Michael
I understand your position, and the frustration you must feel. But, what I was commenting about were quotes like...
P.S.: I guess we will see some comments from Mr. Rat aka Tjaoz aka ElBugs here on this message... treat them with the necessary attitude
...in threads that have nothing to do with tjaoz or Elbox at all. So, in fact while complaining about the problem, you're adding to it by posting such nonsense. I agree you should be able to correct misinformation as it appears. But, have you ever heard the saying "Don't feed the trolls"?