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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: KennyR on July 25, 2004, 11:50:09 PM
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Well, not all are, but many are. So many in fact, that to me it seems to be an instinctive response. Because, for sure, it isn't rational. Spiders aren't dangerous in most of the world. The worst they can do is nip you. They're tiny. But there's just something about their little hairy bodies and long, sharp legs with the bendy ends that many people just can't stand. We often vary from being twitchy around them, to distinctly not liking them, to being terrified of them. To be honest it's like being afraid of a dust ball under your bed.
Human beings do have some real instinctive safeguards inbuilt, which have protected us back when our reasoning brains weren't what they are now. For instance we hate the smell of sulphur compounds, and feel sick at them. This is probably evolved to stop us eating rotting meat, since our guts aren't designed for it and it would kill us. We're also instinctively afraid of heights, and of other things that are common phobias, such as deep dark water. There is a theory that phobias are simply old things from evolution recurring. Our aversions to eating rotting meat, jumping off cliffs and swimming in filth are obvious, but what about spiders?
If fear of spiders is an instinctive response common to all human beings and only overcome by childhood or adult conditioning, or simple experience, where did it come from?
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The Outback? ;-)
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Well, that's more of the mystery. Humans didn't reach Australia until about 30,000 BC, and South America (home of other nasty spiders) until about 10,000 BC, and for sure none of us pasty-faced Euros are descended from them. European, African, and Asian spiders are a lot less venomous and certainly wouldn't have provided the main danger for prehistoric man. If there were lots of venomous ones from that time, where did they go?
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It's a cultural thing.
I think spiders had some occult meaning in pagan times, and Christianity did not really dealt with this superstition. I know it's a cultural thing because ppl from some other cultures eat 'em.
It's also the spiders' looks, with it's limbs, and the body in the core..
beseen that, I'm not fond of spiders either :nervous:
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Hum,
maybe because they move in a totally alien way to you humans...?
Which is a shame really,
since they taste of shrimp when cooked on a nice barbie...
(though the legs do stick between your teeth...)
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
It's a cultural thing.
I think spiders had some occult meaning in pagan times, and Christianity did not really dealt with this superstition. I know it's a cultural thing because ppl from some other cultures eat 'em.
I think that not being afraid of spiders is cultural, but fear of spiders doesn't seem to be effected by culture otherwise. As blobrana says, people don't like them because they 'look alien'. But why are they more alien to us than a fish or a bird?
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KennyR wrote:
But why are they more alien to us than a fish or a bird?
well, you should know that really,
a spider has an external skeleton and birds and fish have internal skeletons.
This means the spiders differs to us extremely because of difference on a very core level of evolution. Like octopi and worms or insects.
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KennyR wrote:
Well, not all are, but many are. So many in fact, that to me it seems to be an instinctive response.
Most spiders can't kill you. Many snakes can't either. On the other hand, some can so why would you want to take a chance of getting killed while you sit around trying to figure out which is which? Any instictive fear of these things will help you stay alive.
Now, the deadliness of snakes and spiders proll'y increases as you get smaller, and there are more deadly spiders in some areas of the world versus others. That's the way it is now, and that's likely the way it has always been though the places with the deadliest spiders then may be different from now.
So, why do you stop at asking the question with respect to humans? Spiders have been around much longer than humans have been. This instinct has probably been around far longer than humans have been too.
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@Fluffy
I stop with humans because most of our fellow mammals (who are seperated from us by a maximum of 60 million years), don't seem to be afraid of spiders. My cat will happily eat one. I don't see dogs being afraid of them either. Or sheep, cows, horses. Or even apes and monkeys.
On the other hand, most of these species are inherently afraid of snakes, as are we, which is not surprising because you can find poisonous snakes just about everywhere.
The fact remains that humans are still afraid of insy-winsy when nothing much else bigger than a fingernail is. And not just spiders, most forms of insect life we find repellent. (Yes, I know spiders are not technically insects...) Moths are completely harmless, but loose a large hawk moth in a crowd of people and watch what happens.
In the geological record is shows that at one time that vertibrates were almost wiped out by invertibrates, which may explain it a little, if it wasn't so long ago (maybe 300 million years). Considering the protein that can be found in insects, you have to wonder why we find them so repellant.
And there is the matter of cats, the number one numero uno killer of Mankind's ancestors. Obviously we don't find cats repulsive, or we wouldn't take so many pictures of them. But when a spider is shown on TV, viewers have to be forewarned. Why is it we find cats - most lethal of our ancient enemies - so photogenic, and spiders - a relatively harmless tiny predator - not?
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I'm afraid of spiders for four reasons:
I live in the southern United States, home to a whole slew of dangerous spiders: black widows and brown recluse spiders, just to name a couple.
I have a very young (18 mos. old) daughter and I shudder to think what would happen if one of those sons-of-beeyotches ever stung her.
Third reason (and this is a bit of a long and frankly disgusting story):
Back in November of 2003, I noticed a small lodge on my upper right thigh. Didn't hurt, really; just a bit of a hard knot under the skin. I figured it was an ingrown hair or pimple, and treated it as such: I put a topical ointment on it and waited for it to go away. However, it did not go away. It continued to get larger and more sensitive (and painful) to the touch. This was over the course of about three days. I first noticed it on a Saturday.
By Monday, the week before Thanksgiving, it was a spot about the size of a quarter-dollar, swollen, and pretty painful. A little red in color with some red around the area proper. By Wednesday, I had a spot about the size of the palm of my hand that was fevered to the touch, and a fifty-cent piece sized area that was swollen and MUCH redder and painful.
By Friday, the area was swollen to the size of a golf ball, an area as large as my spread out hand surrounding it was bright red, hard as cardboard, and VERY hot to the touch. A stick-on thermometer said I had a 101 degree fever in that area. I made a call to my doctor to come in the following Monday to have the spot lanced. The "middle spot" was an angry red, trending towards a light purple.
Saturday it was much the same. I thought it'd hit it's "critical mass". Whoa boy was I wrong. That night, around 11:30, I took a friend home after dinner. When I got back and was getting ready for bed, I looked. The "golf ball" had spawned a marble-sized area on top that was extremely dark purple, trending towards black. Now when I say "golf ball sized" and "marble sized" I'm not talking just diameter - I mean actual spheres.
Anyway, the spot(s) had a pustule about the size of a match-head on top. I delicately put some pressure on this area and...well, it was like a sci-fi horror movie. A high-pressure stream of ... well, it wasn't exactly all blood shot out. I told my wife I was driving myself to the hospital, and I'd have my cell phone.
Into the hospital, into the ER at 12:45 AM. Triage nurse didn't even look at the wound - she listened to my description and sent me back immediately. The doctor (a real sweetheart of a trauma doctor, I might add), came back and took one look and she said "Yep. Brown recluse. See it all the time. Let me get a kit, and we'll start up."
The "kit" for treating this kind of injury includes the following items: Scalpel, at least 20 doses of lidocaine, a pint of iodine, about three miles of gauze for blotting.
As you can imagine, the pain from this thing was nearly unbearable at this point - before they'd even started. It burned, it itched, it ached and it was like being stabbed with a red-hot fork all at once. I got fourteen - fourteen - injections of lidocaine in the area immediately surrounding the injury (the hand-size feverish part). It was the worst pain I've ever felt in my entire life, or so I thought. Then they opened the actual infection up and started to clean it, constantly making sure I was OK. The nurse and doctor were really, really great during the whole thing.
Anyway.
The doctor tells me "We've got to get in there and excise what is basically necrotic tissue. You've got a bunch of dead tissue in your leg, and if we don't get it all, you'll be back in here in a week with us doing this again, except under general anestesia and we'll be taking a baseball sized piece of your leg out." (I know; that sounds harsh but she was, again, really great about the whole thing.)
At this point, I figure "How bad can this possibly hurt, compared to what I've been through?"
Then she took the surgical scissors and cut the first time.
The pain shot up my leg, around my waist, and out my privates. I could literally feel the pain in my most delicate of areas, front and back. Oh you can rest assured I screamed bloody murder. I BEGGED her to stop for a minute, but the pain just kept going and going. She told me she had stopped, the minute I yelled. :-(
I got another six (painful) lidocaine injections. The nurse asked me what the pain index was*. I said "TWENTY!" Again, what could I do? Say "Don't do this any more?"
After about fifteen minutes of horrifyingly excruciating pain, they were done, and began to pack this now gaping wound in my leg with gauze. The doctor held my hand, checking my pulse on a monitor because apparently (and I didn't find this out until the follow-up visit later) I was about to go into shock from the pain...ugh.
They let me sleep in the ER surgery for about an hour, god bless them.
I got a prescription for some powerful antibiotics, a few boxes full of gauze pads and a few yards of tape, as well as instructions on how to change the dressing - thrice daily.
Now, to give you an idea as to just how severe this was (in case the above story has left you a little unsure), I still have a hole in my leg about the size of a pea, about a half-inch deep. It just got to the point where it no longer bleeds slightly when pressure is applied. So I guess the healing process is about done.
When I pulled the gauze tape out of the hole to change my dressing the first time, I took about 1 meter of half-inch tape out. When I re-packed it, I got the q-tip I used to pack the gauze about half of it's length into my leg.
The week after my hospital visit, I called the exterminator out to see if he could find a web or webs around the house. While there was nothing inside, underneath the window overhangs on the rear of the house were two (TWO!) black-widow nests, complete with unhatched egg-sacs (that being the fourth reason).
Yeah, I'm afraid of spiders all right. And it has nothing to do with "primal gestalt" or any nonsense like that. It has everything to do with an injury that took nine months to heal on a perfectly healthy adult, that may well have killed my little baby girl.
You better f****** well believe I'm afraid of those little {bleep}os.
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@boot
Wow! Nasty story! Nasty Abcess!! Those infections that spread out along your arteries are dangerous! If they just happen to "pop" the wrong way, instant blood poisoning, and all sorts of nasty things can happen as a result, like an abcess forming in your brain.
Nasty nasty nasty!
8 legs = EVIL!
http://www.brownreclusespider.net
EVIL!!!
(http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif)
Glad everything turned out ok, scary stuff!
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That's why. (http://www.mikesjournal.com/images/Eight%20Legged%20Freaks.jpg)
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@B00tdisk & T-bone
Yikes, that's scary! :-o
I belive that the worst spiders we have here, is about as poisonous as european bees (rather harmless unless the would gets infected).
The same goes for snakes and insects (though european hornets are nasty :|)
In other words: They don't bug me (pun intended)
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I'm not so sure fear of spiders stems from anything other than their strange appearance,
coupled with the warnings/stories from adults we hear as children.
You didn't hear them about domesticated cats, and cats look more "like us" so they're by
nature not as scary.
Plus something else I just realized is that most very young (like under 5) children will pick up, play
with and sometimes even eat spiders...which suggests to me that fear of spiders is something
likely acquired and not "inherent" or "born with".
Myself, I used to have a TERRIBLE fear of spiders, which I've almost completely eradicated
simply by exercising a few years of conscious effort and casual study. Once I realized they're
extremely beneficial and mostly harmless, my fears subsided. Now, I actually really like spiders. :-P
The only one I still watch for is the "black widow" - those have to go for safety reasons, unless they're
well away from the house. For the recluse, supposedly there are none near my area (northern Nevada),
yet a friend of mine was bitten on the wrist by a spider a few years ago, and had almost identical symptoms
to bootdisk (that's an awful story BTW!!). Word is they've even spread to areas of northern California as well.
I have a friend whose grandmother was KILLED by a recluse, they're a very serious threat to both young children and the elderly. (Not to mention the possibility of recurring necrosis around the bite area...)
Here's a link (http://www.amonline.net.au/factsheets/funnelweb.htm) to a famous nasty one, apparently it can bite through human nail...
Hmmm....and this interesting comment...
Bites are dangerous and can cause serious illness or death. The venom appears to particularly affect primates (ie humans),
whereas other mammals - such as cats and dogs - are relatively resistant.
...and more funnel web pics (http://www.avru.unimelb.edu.au/avruweb/Fws.htm)
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Well, our Australasian and American cousins obviously have more reason to fear spiders than we pampered Europeans. Has anyone seen the the pictures from Iraq of the Camel Spiders? They look suspiciously fake, like someone has pasted the head of an ant onto the body of a spider using photoshop.
Anyway, I'm petrified of spiders but if I find one in my house I won't kill it. Instead I pick the thing up in a piece of tissue and send it on it's merry way via the window.
I can't abide killing something over an irrational fear so out it goes.
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T_Bone wrote:
8 legs = EVIL!
2 legs also == EVIL! (considering the amount of deaths inflicted)
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Hum,
Perhaps it's quite a recent phenomenon?
Perhaps before we discovered America or more importantly Australia, spiders were perhaps regarded the same as any other kind of `insect`....
Perhaps, with stories brought back from those lands somehow tainted our view of these creatures...
And considering that the common housefly and mosquito (http://mysite.freeserve.com/blobrana/downloads/633sqdrn.mid) has killed more people than everything else, i think we should give the spiders a break...
[anyone know the story of The Bruce & spider?]
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erhaps before we discovered America or more importantly Australia, spiders were perhaps regarded the same as any other kind of `insect`....
Perhaps, with stories brought back from those lands somehow tainted our view of these creatures...
That might be the case. I dislike hornets far more than any arachnid.
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I've never had an instinctive fear of spiders or snakes. I even had a pet snake when I was younger (ableit totally harmless).
I actually quite like the idea of the odd house spider in my place. Primarily because of all things I cannot stand flies!
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That's because flies are just foul! Them and Mosquitos are my very least favorite insects. Then maybe centipedes, Those are good for raising all the hair on my body on end in the morning if I happen to spot one in the bathtub!
:nervous:
now I have that creepy skin crawly feeling!
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Hum,
I think this calls for an obligatory picture from Starship Troopers
(http://www.epilog.de/Film/St/_Bilder/Starship_Troopers_USA_1996_B01_.jpg)
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"Someone called the exterminator?" :-D
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Hum,
thats a bit like `add the lines`...
"Honey, you forgot to put the plug in the bath"
or
"He now regretted putting that slug bait into his garden"
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Karlos wrote:
I actually quite like the idea of the odd house spider in my place. Primarily because of all things I cannot stand flies!
Thinking about it rationally, I'd much rather have spiders than flies. (Nothing's worse than a good slug in your house though.)
Perhaps it's the behavioural patterns of spiders. If you have a housefly, you know the bugger's there because it buzzes and flies around. How often have you picked up a jumper and had a spider crawl out of it, or worse found a spider in your hair? They are creepy and also rather jumpy which probably makes us more tense. (When is it going to move?)
With that, the unappealing look of the things and those childhood cautionary tales, I think humans (with some exceptions as evidenced in this thread) simply develop a natural aversion to them.
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KennyR wrote:
And there is the matter of cats, the number one numero uno killer of Mankind's ancestors.
Cats aren't generally venemous. The danger posed by a cat is mostly size dependant. This is not the case with spiders.
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that_punk_guy wrote:
Thinking about it rationally, I'd much rather have spiders than flies.
Instincts aren't strictly rational. They tend to be heavily stereotypical, but on average they make sense.
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-D- wrote:
I'm not so sure fear of spiders stems from anything other than their strange appearance,
coupled with the warnings/stories from adults we hear as children.
I think loss of fear of spiders is probably conditioned. As we learn to distinguish between which spiders are OK and which are not. However, if we are surprised by a spider or any crawly thing such as when we suddenly find one unexpectedly on our faces then we have an instinctive response that is quite strong, rather than a more rational and considered response.
Plus something else I just realized is that most very young (like under 5) children will pick up, play
with and sometimes even eat spiders..
There is plasticity in behaviour, but there are also developmental stages as well. I read somewhere of a study of the fear of heights in which babies were placed near a high edge where the drop itself was covered with strong glass so that you could walk across. The babies would not crawl over this edge, but they would occassionally turn around and back over it.
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PMC wrote:
Well, our Australasian and American cousins obviously have more reason to fear spiders than we pampered Europeans. Has anyone seen the the pictures from Iraq of the Camel Spiders? They look suspiciously fake, like someone has pasted the head of an ant onto the body of a spider using photoshop.
Camel spiders are real, although technically they're scorpions I believe.
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T_Bone wrote:
Camel spiders are real, although technically they're scorpions I believe.
Pics?
My Dad was in the RAF in Iraq (in the mid 50's) and remembers pulling a fried camel spider from a valve radio set. The one's I've seen pics of have exaggerated ant heads with big mandibles that look so photoshopped it's unreal.
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There isn't much difference between scorpions and spiders. They're both arachnids.
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Yea, a deadly difference
(http://visualeffects.net/effectsguide/cinefex/movie%20magic/predator.jpg)
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(http://visualeffects.net/effectsguide/cinefex/movie%20magic/predator.jpg)
OMG! I'm positive I once dated her.....
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Hum,
i imagine it would have been difficult to get rid of her...
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I really like spiders myself. I have become quite adept at getting them out of baths etc for people, since otherwise they'd be unceremoniously washed down the plughole.
I live out in the country, and there are a few spiders living in the house. They don't do any harm, and gobble the odd fly or whatever that finds its way in the house. Like I say, I actually LIKE them; I find them fascinating. That doesn't mean that they don't sometimes scare me..
Only trouble is, have to be careful the dawg doesn't see them scurrying across the floor, otherwise he hoovers them up and swallows them....
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@pmc
hum,
i just read an article that about chitosan, (it's derived from shrimp shells, and shrimps are basically spiders...)
well you can patch up yourself with a chitosan bandage... (http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/shrimp-bandages-see-wartime-use-018277.php)
[i had heard of using spiders webs to help clotting]
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PMC wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Camel spiders are real, although technically they're scorpions I believe.
Pics?
I've posted them before in another camel spider thread, but they're all over google ;-)
There's one picture floating around that's actually two spiders, with one halfway eaten by the other.
(http://www.buckstix.com/images/spidy.jpg)
"Solifugae (Camel Spider)
by Mike Southey *
There is a large number of arachnid species in UAE but perhaps none has more respect in the popular imagination as the solifugae, or camel spider. There is an excellent example (under glass) in the Group's Workroom.
These creatures are nocturnal, spending days in a tiny burrow or hole which it has dug itself. They are unlikely to be encountered in the colder months, but during the warmer period of the year they can infest some areas. Members report being "overrun" by camel spiders while camping in gravelly desert south of AI Wagan, on the Al Ain - Al Liwa road. The spiders were apparently attracted by firelight and moved extremely fast, running over soft sand, hard-packed gravel, or bodies, with equal ease.
This species possesses no poison and relies on strength and speed. It is carnivorous and lives on a diet of insects, spiders, scorpions and small lizards. It is so voracious that it will feed until it is too bloated to move effectively. Prey is held between the forceps of the Chelicerae and chewed with such vigour that a solifugae eating a beetle can be heard over a distance of several metres.
Camel spiders are not harmful to humans, and will only bite by accident. However, they are very pugnacious and fight fiercely with scorpions, centipedes and with each other. It is perhaps their speed that has instilled more fear than they deserve.
Mating habits are different from those of other arachnids. The male courts the female by stroking her with his pedipalpi and forelegs. This reduces her to a passive state, as if anaesthetized, whereupon the male lays her on her side. Raising his body he ejects a mass of spermatozoa onto the ground, picks it up with his chelicerae and forces it into the vagina. He closes the opening and waits a few moments and then hurriedly departs before the female has a chance to grab and eat him.
Until now I have not been able to keep solifugae for more than a few weeks. Food supply may be the problem as fresh mincemeat dancing on the end of a length of cotton does not deceive a self-respecting camel spider indefinitely. Any suggestions on studying them in captivity would be welcomed.
* Mike Southey is the Group Recorder for Arachnids and Scorpions and is keen to receive any specimens, dead or alive"
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T_Bone wrote:
"...and then hurriedly departs before the female has a chance to grab and eat him."
Damn, I've dated her too!
Seriously though, they aren't as scary as the recent flurry of email ciculars might suggest - being non-poisonous and only eating insects, arachnids and small reptiles.
Although I still shudder and cringe at the sight of spiders, they're pretty fascinating creatures.
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PMC wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
"...and then hurriedly departs before the female has a chance to grab and eat him."
Damn, I've dated her too!
Seriously though, they aren't as scary as the recent flurry of email ciculars might suggest - being non-poisonous and only eating insects, arachnids and small reptiles.
The scary part comes when you notice their behavior...
They don't like sunlight, and will do whatever possible to remain in the shade, and they are NOT human shy...
So if you happen to uncover one by accidentally exposing one to sunlight, it will RUN right towards you trying to steal your shadow! Those suckers run FAST! 10 MPH, and if you run it will CHASE you! (it's still trying to get your shadow)
If you fall, it will try to get under you (since your shadow disappeared), at which point you are in danger of hurting it and getting accidentally bitten.
Add to that, any big m*** f*** spider that can jump *3 feet vertically* scares the crap out of me!
I'd be screaming my fool head off being chased by one of those!
:lol:
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blobrana wrote:
@t_Bone
Yeah, when they jump up and hug your face?
I've dated worse.
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PMC wrote:
blobrana wrote:
@t_Bone
Yeah, when they jump up and hug your face?
I've dated worse.
Hmm, what if you *aren't* dating them though? Ever been preyed on by a face-hugger?
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We get those spiders in South Africa too, we call them Red Romans.
http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Spider/arachnid.html
A friend of mine went out on a field trip and they had to spend a few nights in a thatched bungalow. All night he could hear the tapping of spider legs on the rafters above and every now and then there would be a hard thump as one landed on him on his bed. They apparently jump off the rafters trying to get moths.
Wouldn't like to get the specimen in the photo on my head. He looks to be about 20cm long.
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@X-ray
???
Hum,
And that one was just a young one
[ Or are Aliens (http://www.coverportal.de/cover/video/a/aliens.jpg) not allowed into your country? ]
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X-ray wrote:
We get those spiders in South Africa too, we call them Red Romans.
http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Spider/arachnid.html
A friend of mine went out on a field trip and they had to spend a few nights in a thatched bungalow. All night he could hear the tapping of spider legs on the rafters above and every now and then there would be a hard thump as one landed on him on his bed. They apparently jump off the rafters trying to get moths.
Wouldn't like to get the specimen in the photo on my head. He looks to be about 20cm long.
OMFG there would be a T_Bone shaped hole in the wall if I were there sleeping in that bungalow!!! :lol:
(I tried to find a cartoonish image of a human shaped hole in a wall, and came up with nada.)
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Lol @ T-Bone shaped cutout!
Ha ha, I can guarantee you that I would be sleeping in the bungalow only if I could have full chainmail armour and a motorcycle helmet with the visor TAPED shut.
Imagine the sound as the spider hits the visor....Thok!!
and then the feverish scrabble of spiny legs across the helmet as he scurries away, no doubt going back up to the rafters for more fun...
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Cyberus wrote:
PMC wrote:
I've dated worse.
Hmm, what if you *aren't* dating them though? Ever been preyed on by a face-hugger?
Only due to very bad nightclub lighting.
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X-ray wrote:
We get those spiders in South Africa too, we call them Red Romans.
A friend of mine went out on a field trip and they had to spend a few nights in a thatched bungalow. All night he could hear the tapping of spider legs on the rafters above and every now and then there would be a hard thump as one landed on him on his bed. They apparently jump off the rafters trying to get moths.
There's NO WAY you'd get me to sleep in the same room as one of those. Not unless I was either very innebriated or there was substantial amounts of cash in it for me.
They seem like they're harmless enough though, I am quite amused by the thought of them jumping off rafters trying to catch insects.
Thinking about it they're kind of cute in an eight legged pointy fanged kind of a way...
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Interesting article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3539410.stm) on the BBC, especially with respect to b00tdisk's story.