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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: KennyR on July 16, 2004, 03:57:12 PM
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Sitting here in my hot room, I've identified a hole in the market where a new innovation is badly needed - the humble transformer. No, not robots in disguise, those things that are in practically everything electrical you own - including the monitor you're looking at now.
See, these little transformer things are pretty simple - two copper coils placed slightly apart from each other. Current flows through one side, generates a magnetic field, which causes a current to flow in the other. The number of loops of copper on each side determine how much the voltage goes up or goes down on the other end. Thats what transformers do - transform one voltage to another.
Simple - but with one flaw: they're very inefficient. Because of all that copper, their electrical resistance is high, and they generate a lot of heat. They also lose power from magnetism, and from noise (hummmmmmm). Touch the back of your monitor, or the little boxes that come on the end of some flexes at the plug. They're warm. That's another kind of transformer.
And higher wattage ones (such in all computer PSUs) need active cooling. That means fans. More power wasted. And if you have too many, you'll need air conditioning. Industries must lose trillions of dollars from energy wasted on transformers alone, and the householder too. Replacing them would mean all this money saved, plus it would be friendlier for the planet. As the oil supplies run out, this technology will become even more essential.
So here's the challenge - invent something more efficient that can do the same job. The LED and the fluorescent did it for the filament bulb, the transistor did it for the diode, internal combustion did it for the steam engine. The person or company to invent an efficient replacement for the transformer will end up mega-rich, and will have contributed enormously to science and industry.
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Simple!
Use batteries instead! :lol:
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hm, cool idea (especially now my laptop psu is broken: it was a transformer wich delivers 16 volts; nowhere to get such, and I can't screw it open because it's shut tight with no screws whatsoever )
*sigh* :-(
another invention I was thinking of:
"Rent-A-Factory" (tm)
An all-round factory with sets of all kinds of robotarms, transport bands, tubes, cooking pots/ovens etcetera.
And it should be made in a way that you can configure it automatically to make a certain product.
It should be very usable for small production lines
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@Kenny
Oddly, I always remember reading that the transformer was one of the more efficient devices in terms of energy loss (IIRC, a good transformer is supposedly >95% efficient). But as you point out, they do get warm and they do hum occasionally.
What sort of efficiency do solid state transformers (as shipped with mobile phones etc.) have, anyway?
Incidentally, the transistor never actually replaced the diode - they're used for different purposes. Unless you meant vacuum tubes, of course (of which there were diodes, triodes etc).
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Karlos wrote:
Oddly, I always remember reading that the transformer was one of the more efficient devices in terms of energy loss (IIRC, a good transformer is supposedly >95% efficient). But as you point out, they do get warm and they do hum occasionally.
They do indeed. There's a full eight degree temperature gradient between my room and outside. That might not sound like much, but on hot days it makes the room unliveable. I measured 38 C in my room last Autumn. :)
It's not the computers doing it (mine are low power and turned off at night anyway), its not heating. It's just pure transformer wastage. Calculate the kind of power you need to warm a 5x8x2.5m room by 8C and you get a feeling of what is just being wasted.
What sort of efficiency do solid state transformers (as shipped with mobile phones etc.) have, anyway?
I couldn't put a figure on it, but I'll tell you something - many of these things still get hot even when the device they're attached to isn't even on! My 56k modem for instance, which I keep for emergencies, I have to leave unplugged because of the heat its transformer generates. That's annoying because I'd like it as an auto backup (a router feature).
It's also annoying that my UPS and emergency light, which are basically lead-acid batteries kept fully charged by a transformer, generate lots of heat too - which not only makes my room too hot, it takes years off the service life of the batteries.
Incidentally, the transistor never actually replaced the diode - they're used for different purposes. Unless you meant vacuum tubes, of course (of which there were diodes, triodes etc).
Yes, that's what I meant - the old switching diodes. The ones that used to be huge and so hot that bugs were attracted to them and burned them out. Hence the origin of the word "buggy" pertaining to computers. Real computers weren't really possible until someone realised that a dirty piece of silicon had such nice properties. I just wish someone would make a similar discovery with transformers! :)
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KennyR wrote:
Sitting here in my hot room, I've identified a hole in the market where a new innovation is badly needed - the humble transformer. No, not robots in disguise, those things that are in practically everything electrical you own - including the monitor you're looking at now.
See, these little transformer things are pretty simple - two copper coils placed slightly apart from each other. Current flows through one side, generates a magnetic field, which causes a current to flow in the other. The number of loops of copper on each side determine how much the voltage goes up or goes down on the other end. Thats what transformers do - transform one voltage to another.
Simple - but with one flaw: they're very inefficient. Because of all that copper, their electrical resistance is high, and they generate a lot of heat. They also lose power from magnetism, and from noise (hummmmmmm). Touch the back of your monitor, or the little boxes that come on the end of some flexes at the plug. They're warm. That's another kind of transformer.
And higher wattage ones (such in all computer PSUs) need active cooling. That means fans. More power wasted. And if you have too many, you'll need air conditioning. Industries must lose trillions of dollars from energy wasted on transformers alone, and the householder too. Replacing them would mean all this money saved, plus it would be friendlier for the planet. As the oil supplies run out, this technology will become even more essential.
So here's the challenge - invent something more efficient that can do the same job. The LED and the fluorescent did it for the filament bulb, the transistor did it for the diode, internal combustion did it for the steam engine. The person or company to invent an efficient replacement for the transformer will end up mega-rich, and will have contributed enormously to science and industry.
Uhmm....we already have SMPS (switch mode power supplies) which are very efficient at transforming voltage down, but can't be used to raise the voltage.
I'm unsure what they use in those DC->AC 12V->240V transformers(inverters) to raise the voltage.
But once we can utilize superconductors coiled transformers will be nearly 100% effective. Or close enough.
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Morley wrote:
Uhmm....we already have SMPS (switch mode power supplies) which are very efficient at transforming voltage down, but can't be used to raise the voltage.
As far as I remember SMPS use capacitors and aren't useful for most applications. And aren't that much more efficient either because of capacitive loss.
But once we can utilize superconductors coiled transformers will be nearly 100% effective. Or close enough.
There's probably no such thing as the room-temperature superconductor because of quantum decoherence. Superconductors need cooling which needs more power...
Anyway, its the same principle. Use a magnetic field to jump power from one cable to the next. There has to be a better way.
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KennyR wrote:
As far as I remember SMPS use capacitors and aren't useful for most applications. And aren't that much more efficient either because of capacitive loss.
SMPS are used for most high-current applications. The PSU in your computer? SMPS; and more and more applications are utlizing SMPS to help reduce weight and increase effiency. Capacitor loss here is close to zero when compared to regular "coil" transformers. The downside of SMPS is acoustic and electrical noise. Therefore they are hard to use in audio and visual equipment like TV's and Hifi's. Large PA amplifiers use SMPS though.
There's probably no such thing as the room-temperature superconductor because of quantum decoherence. Superconductors need cooling which needs more power...
Anyway, its the same principle. Use a magnetic field to jump power from one cable to the next. There has to be a better way.
I wasn't thinking of the tiny transformer in your home, but superconductors can be used in large transformerstations, where the loss is very huge. Keeping a superconductor cool will in fact not use excessive power, as a transformer with superconductors will creative very little heat in theory...
I will try to figure out what they use in powerinverters, I think they are pretty effective, but use expensive parts.
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KennyR wrote:
There's probably no such thing as the room-temperature superconductor because of quantum decoherence. Superconductors need cooling which needs more power...
I dunno. I can remember when liquid nitrogen temperature superconductors were mere science fiction, but that's been surpassed quite a way since then. I don't think RT superconductors would arrive any time soon, but I wouldn't rule them out all together.
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Karlos wrote:
I dunno. I can remember when liquid nitrogen temperature superconductors were mere science fiction, but that's been surpassed quite a way since then. I don't think RT superconductors would arrive any time soon, but I wouldn't rule them out all together.
Well, we'll see. Even if they arrive, they could be impractical. I mean, if we wanted to save power right now with no practical considerations, we could make all our cables out of silver.
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KennyR wrote:
I mean, if we wanted to save power right now with no practical considerations, we could make all our cables out of silver.
Well, you could simply isolate the most wasteful areas (eg your power transformer) and use a better conductor. I expect gold or silver, alloyed with something to strengthen it slightly would both be good for transformer coils, albeit a tad costly. Perhaps less expensive than RT superconductor if/when it arrives.
Of course technology ultimately filters down to the masses. Perhaps our great grandkids will simply laugh at the quaint notion of metal for electrical conductors.
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KennyR wrote:
Karlos wrote:
I dunno. I can remember when liquid nitrogen temperature superconductors were mere science fiction, but that's been surpassed quite a way since then. I don't think RT superconductors would arrive any time soon, but I wouldn't rule them out all together.
Well, we'll see. Even if they arrive, they could be impractical. I mean, if we wanted to save power right now with no practical considerations, we could make all our cables out of silver.
Actually I think most of the heat from a power supply comes from the voltage regulator and current rectifier, rather than the transformer itself. AC to AC transformers, with no rectification, actually run quite cool. We have a 3 phase transformer in the basement that runs the yard lights (it's about the size of a washing machine) dropping the pole voltage down to 120, and it's cool to the touch... well, except one time when one of the phases burned out it ran hot and noisy for a while. (as did all the motors being run from that line!)
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@T_Bone
That's what I meant when I mentioned earlier that as far as I recall, transformers are one of the more efficient electrical devices (seem to recall >95% from somewhere)...
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The design and concept of a Transformer is not the problem at all, as Karlos said they can be really efficient, the only problem is the conductor and the magnetic core. If one could find better materials for those then it would be one of the most efficient devices available.
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@ Kenny
It's not the transformers that are the problem, generally. High efficiency transformers are available that are 99% efficient and even crap transformers are better than 95%.
So if you are drawing 100 Watts, 5 Watts are getting burned up in the crappy transformer, and that's quite a bit but everything is going through the transformer so it gets hot. The real problem is the remaining 95 Watts which are dissipated by the system, mostly as heat, only that loss is distributed over more componants so the heat is less noticable. The real way to heat the transformer less is to reduce the amount of power the rest of the system needs.
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Calculate the kind of power you need to warm a 5x8x2.5m room by 8C and you get a feeling of what is just being wasted.
I bet only a fraction of that 8C rise is down to electrical stuff... there is a much bigger energy-emitter in the room - YOU!
A human being emits a lot of heat! Try putting a hat & gloves on, a big coat and covering as much skin as possible... I bet you'll find your room will barely rise in temperature at all! :-)
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@KennyR
ever heard of super conduction? Might be usefull with your invention :-)
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A human being emits a lot of heat!
Doh! This is the real reason for global warming.
In 1950 there were 2.5 billion people in the world, today there are 6.3 billion - those extra 3.8 billion people are probably responsible for the average temperature to have risen by 0.6C (http://carto.eu.org/article2480.html) in the last 54 years....
Over the next 46 years, according to the US Censor Bureau (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html), global population growth will slow down... perhaps this will cause, a slowdown in the average temperature rise.
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Simple - but with one flaw: they're very inefficient.
As mentioned a number of times before they are quite efficient! 95% ? The worst you're likely to find would be 97-98% efficient!
What alternatives are there?
Well, if you're prepared to switch to DC, you could try a plain old voltage divider circuit. It's just two resistors! ...and a great big heat sink to take the heat from the resistors away.
Then there is a voltage regulator circuit. They too just cause the extra voltage to turn to heat.
The physics teacher that I had when I started my second diploma course enjoyed rambleing on and on about the formula that can be used to work out what value capacitor is required to run a red LED from the mains! The formula contained Pi, and all sorts of things.
So, there you have it. There are alternatives, but they don't really have many advantages (except for size and weight). And they're all less efficient.
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OH, Oh!,
i know this one....
Has anyone mentioned superconducting nano tubes?
replace all the wires with nano tubes ...
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iamaboringperson wrote:
Well, if you're prepared to switch to DC, you could try a plain old voltage divider circuit. It's just two resistors! ...and a great big heat sink to take the heat from the resistors away.
Then there is a voltage regulator circuit. They too just cause the extra voltage to turn to heat.
Yeah, you could be right - the problem isn't transformers, it's resistors. Someone needs a way to make a resistor that can't and won't heat up.
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KennyR wrote:
Yeah, you could be right - the problem isn't transformers, it's resistors. Someone needs a way to make a resistor that can't and won't heat up.
That would be brilliant, but the real problem is ....
Whatever energy saving thing you develop, it better be cheaper than what's already being used. Why? Because the guy who's designing the gear you're going to buy isn't going to be paying your power bill so he doesn't have to worry about it.
When it comes to consumer items, consumers are dumb on average and don't care how much they will have to pay for power in the furture in whatever form; gas, coal, petrol, electricity. Cheap to buy trumps saves power over time.
Only big companies and municipalities and governments look into that kind of performance. They have accountants who can figure out the number of beans payed over equipment lifetimes. Joe Blo don't know.
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FluffyMcDeath wrote:
KennyR wrote:
Yeah, you could be right - the problem isn't transformers, it's resistors. Someone needs a way to make a resistor that can't and won't heat up.
That would be brilliant, but the real problem is ....
Whatever energy saving thing you develop, it better be cheaper than what's already being used. Why? Because the guy who's designing the gear you're going to buy isn't going to be paying your power bill so he doesn't have to worry about it.
When it comes to consumer items, consumers are dumb on average and don't care how much they will have to pay for power in the furture in whatever form; gas, coal, petrol, electricity. Cheap to buy trumps saves power over time.
Only big companies and municipalities and governments look into that kind of performance. They have accountants who can figure out the number of beans payed over equipment lifetimes. Joe Blo don't know.
More importantly, resistors produce heat basically due to the fact that electrons keep 'bumping' into the bit's of carbon etc. (other insulator materials) in the resistor.
The electrons are doing work. And in this world you don't get energy out of nothing. Electrical energy converts to heat energy. (So that there is always an equal amount of energy (and matter, for that matter) in the universe)
Heatless resistors are impossible.
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iamaboringperson wrote:
FluffyMcDeath wrote:
KennyR wrote:
Yeah, you could be right - the problem isn't transformers, it's resistors. Someone needs a way to make a resistor that can't and won't heat up.
That would be brilliant, but the real problem is ....
Whatever energy saving thing you develop, it better be cheaper than what's already being used. Why? Because the guy who's designing the gear you're going to buy isn't going to be paying your power bill so he doesn't have to worry about it.
When it comes to consumer items, consumers are dumb on average and don't care how much they will have to pay for power in the furture in whatever form; gas, coal, petrol, electricity. Cheap to buy trumps saves power over time.
Only big companies and municipalities and governments look into that kind of performance. They have accountants who can figure out the number of beans payed over equipment lifetimes. Joe Blo don't know.
More importantly, resistors produce heat basically due to the fact that electrons keep 'bumping' into the bit's of carbon etc. (other insulator materials) in the resistor.
The electrons are doing work. And in this world you don't get energy out of nothing. Electrical energy converts to heat energy. (So that there is always an equal amount of energy (and matter, for that matter) in the universe)
Heatless resistors are impossible.
Although you might be able to convert to magnetic energy instead to some extent, but then you have to compensate for the inductance, is there a way to induce a magnetic field without shoring up an inductance? Even a straight wire seems to shore up a field, does anyone know how much power is shored up in a few miles of powerline?
It would be lossy, I know, but if there's a necessity for heat tradeoff it could be usefull.
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@T_Bone
>>lossy
Hum, i once saw a piece of `Art` that had hundreds of striplight tubes planted in a field under a power-pylon...
Of course they all lit up at night...
:smoke: