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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: redrumloa on July 08, 2004, 02:28:33 AM
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Today I have been testing out ways to use a Prometheus in a single card configuration. I have had many people mention they'd only want to use a GFX card and nothing else, this way it will take up very little real estate.
Amiga 4000D:
Pros and cons here. Pro - You can use the Prometheus in the top slot with a GFX card, and still close the case. Amazingly when used this way it only take up 1 slot. Con- This kit will cost about ~$15 more than a A3000D kit becuase it requires the use of a small ribbon cable.
Prometheus installed with adapter in an A4000D, top slot. (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/4kd-single/4kd1-1.jpg)
Same A4000D with Voodoo 3 inserted in Promethes (side view). (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/4kd-single/4kd1-2.jpg)
As you see 3 slots are still entirely unobstructed.
Amiga 3000D:
Again pros and cons. Cons- The A3000D case is much shorter than the A4000D. Using the Prometheus in a single slot/video card only setup will block 2 slots in a desktop case, if the case is to close. Pro- Unbelievably simple and cheap! The total cost of the kit will probably be ~$20.
Prometheus installed in an A3000D with right angle adapter. (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/3kd-single/3kd1-1.jpg)
Same A3000D with Voodoo 3 installed (side view). (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/3kd-single/3kd1-2.jpg)
Same system with X-surf II installed. (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/3kd-single/3kd1-3.jpg)
Whoa what's this? Yup same system now with a Toaster:-) (http://anachronismindustries.com/projects/3kd-single/3kd1-4.jpg)
As you see on the A3000D you can still use 2 full size zorro boards.
So.. Thoughts? :-)
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Cool.... Is there such a thing as a dual angle bracket? I'm picturing fitting two PCI cards, leaving the bottom Zorro slot/video slot open on the A4000? (This would be perfect, as I have a bone-stock A4000 with scandoubler.)
Also, know of any cheap place to get a Cyberstorm PPC? ;-)
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I'm picturing fitting two PCI cards,
This is a piece of cake, I will take more pictures propbably tomorrow. Using 2 PCI cards with a Prometheus on an Amiga 4000D will only block 2 zorro slots. The bottom 2 slots, inline with the video slot, will be free.
Also, know of any cheap place to get a Cyberstorm PPC?
I sure do;-) HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4598&item=5106935385). Even after the repair bill it will probably be pretty cheap.
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It seems a shame to let all those other PCI slots go to waste in terms of price/functionality. Is there such thing as a Zorro right-angle adaptor? If the Prometheus could be rotated 90 degrees and moved closer to the backplane, you could have 3 Zorro slots and 4 PCI slots. Downside would be that it'd probably obscure the Video slot in the desktop models; the 3000T and 4000T might still have access, however.
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@Matt_H
The best configuration is still a tower conversion. On my tower I have 3 free zorro slots and all PCI slots. Another AO member has a Prommy in his A3000T(C= made), he has like 6 free zorro and 4 PCI.
Desktop cases are very tight, the prometheus itself is too big to even consider a right angle zorro adapter. It would never fit.
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I still don't know if it's cost effective though. After getting the Prometheus, Voodoo board, your kit, and shipping you're looking at ~$200. That's a lot for just a video card. But, like I said before, if the price was lower, I might consider it.
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Red! do you have these in stock???? the prometheus with an adaptor???? is that what I need to keep my 3000d in fine shape and not ugly it up with a tower? how much you scallywag!
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adolescent wrote:
I still don't know if it's cost effective though. After getting the Prometheus, Voodoo board, your kit, and shipping you're looking at ~$200. That's a lot for just a video card. But, like I said before, if the price was lower, I might consider it.
Let's compare as close as possible to apples-to-apples.
Zorro:
CV64-3D (http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/phase5_cybervision.html&cart_id=885736_27255) - $229
(S3 virge)
Prometheus:
Prometheus (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4598&item=5107504013) - $139 plus kit -$25 (A3000 estimated) plus VIRGE PCI card (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40158&item=5107241455&rd=1) - $5 Total - $169
Besides I plan on selling bundles with desktop kit and Voodoo card for a target price under $200. That will still be less than a CV643d. It's all up to the buyer if it is worth it to them. In the Amiga market, it is hardly expensive though. :-)
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BIG-IRON wrote:
Red! do you have these in stock???? the prometheus with an adaptor???? is that what I need to keep my 3000d in fine shape and not ugly it up with a tower? how much you scallywag!
Scallywag? :lol:
In stock? Absolutely (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4598&item=5107504013) on the Prometheus. I have a limited number of adapters I am ATM too. Do you want to only use this as a single PCI slot / gfx card solution? Or do you want to use it as a 2 PCI slot solution for ethernet + gfx card? I can accomidate either way. I have a rather large stock of 8029 ethernet cards on the way, I expect them early next week. I even have a few Voodoos. Just let me know what you want to do:-)
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@Red
$219 for a Cybervision is the new price, how much does a Virge/Voodoo 3 cost new/retail? Also, who pays that much anyway? You can get a CV64/3D for much cheaper. Average price in the US is ~$150.
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You can pick up a new or used voodoo 3000 or 4500 for about 30 bucks or so and it kicks the hell outta anything else that the amiga can use (A radeon X800 on an amiga man that would be nice) check ebay or pricewatch.com for voodoo proces but they are cheap.
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I wouldn't compare the two... The CV3D is just a graphic card (and can be found for much less than that... if one keeps his/her eyes peeled it can be found for less than 70$ though these offers are few and far apart). The Prommy is a PCI solusion and offers the possibility of much faster Voodoo graphiccrads and give you PCI slots for use with cheap Ethernet cards.
The Prommy is a cheap PCI solusion and currently the only one useable for A3000D but I belive drivers are it's biggest weakness and 'till that's no more I'm still in favour of the Mediator (even if it's not open).
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Back on topic. Have you tried using a taller PCI right angle adapter in the 1st slot, and a short one in the 2nd? This should allow you to use both slots without taking up too much real estate.
Something like these:
(http://www.adexelec.com/pcitx45.jpg)
(http://www.adexelec.com/pcitx46.jpg)
Note: one of these is an B-side adapter, but they're available as A-sides too.
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BIG-IRON wrote:
You can pick up a new or used voodoo 3000 or 4500 for about 30 bucks or so and it kicks the hell outta anything else that the amiga can use (A radeon X800 on an amiga man that would be nice) check ebay or pricewatch.com for voodoo proces but they are cheap.
An Amiga can't even use the full bandwidth of the Voodoo 3, much less the Radeon. Adding a higher end card doesn't help performance at all. I have what is probably the fastest Z3 video card, the Rainbow III, and the only thing that the Voodoo does better/faster is 3d and more memory.
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$219 for a Cybervision is the new price
New or refurbished? No idea. Considering how many years it's been since they were made I'd be suprised if it was new.
how much does a Virge/Voodoo 3 cost new/retail?
Good luck finding a new Voodoo 3 card. I see Virge and Permedia II cards for $5-$10 each new at computer shows. You won't walk into a major retailer and find them on the shelf, just like Amiga stuff but it is easier to find than Amiga stuff.
Still even asuming the CV64-3D is new, so what? The Prometheus is brand new. I could bundle brand new S3 virge cards with it and still sell for less than $219. The Prommy would have future expansion options, the CV64-3d doesn't.
Average price in the US is ~$150.
For a used card on eBay, knock yourself out.
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How about one of these?
(http://www.adexelec.com/pcirx2n1-n.jpg)
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Have you tried using a taller PCI right angle adapter in the 1st slot, and a short one in the 2nd?
Yes, and if you read at the beginning of this thread I mentioned i would be taking more pictures today;-)
The PCITX4-6 is not tall enough to clear the PCITX4-5, but I have another that does.
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adolescent wrote:
How about one of these?
Waaay ahead of you. Doesn't work for a number of reasons.
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redrumloa wrote:
New or refurbished? No idea. Considering how many years it's been since they were made I'd be suprised if it was new.
Could say the same thing about the Prommy.
Still even asuming the CV64-3D is new, so what? The Prometheus is brand new. I could bundle brand new S3 virge cards with it and still sell for less than $219. The Prommy would have future expansion options, the CV64-3d doesn't.
$219 for just a video card is crazy. You mention future expansion options, but if you're blocking the other 3 slots then they're are none. If you can figure out how to free up at least the second slot (and not block more Z3 slots) then it would be a better deal.
For a used card on eBay, knock yourself out.
Exactly, was just commenting on your "apples to oranges" comparison. Compare new-new or used-used.
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Could say the same thing about the Prommy.
Considering I own the entire existing stock of Prometheus boards, I think I know if they are new or used. You could say otherwise but it would jusy be an untrue smear.
If you can figure out how to free up at least the second slot (and not block more Z3 slots) then it would be a better deal.
What other 3? the PCI? As I mentioned several times in this thread, and previous threads there will be a 2 slot desktop kit. 2 PCI slots will block 2 zorro slots on an A4000D, and will block 3 zorro slots on an A3000d.
xactly, was just commenting on your "apples to oranges" comparison. Compare new-new or used-used.
Ok show me where to find brand new CV64-3D cards in the US for $150.
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Would one of these Passive 3 PCI slot riser (http://www.orbitmicro.com/products/riser%20cards/32-bit%20pci%20riser%20cards/MRC-PCI3.htm) cards work? Looks like it should fit in an A4000D, leaving the bottom Zorro/Video slot open.... :-)
About the exact configuration I'd want... But would it work, electronically?
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@Ilwrath
It would almost certainly work electrically, but the case would not close on an Amiga 4000D. The Voodoo 3 is too wide.
Amiga3000D OTOH would close (but would probably block all 4 zorro slots)
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redrumloa wrote:
xactly, was just commenting on your "apples to oranges" comparison. Compare new-new or used-used.
Ok show me where to find brand new CV64-3D cards in the US for $150.
Not what I said. You were comparing a used video card to a new video card. That is not apples to apples. Used prices the CV would be comparable, with the advantage of other slots availble. New, yours would definately be cheaper, but would criple future expansion.
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Sigh..
adolescent wrote:
but would criple future expansion.
How so?
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It would almost certainly work electrically, but the case would not close on an Amiga 4000D. The Voodoo 3 is too wide.
really? I didn't think my Voodoo 3 3000 PCI was that wide... Of course I tossed it in the closet a year and a half ago, or so, after testing it. (Picked it up at the local swap for $5, I think... Was always thinking ahead to holding onto it in case I ever got a PCI miggy. I'm a bargain-hunter pack-rat. ;-) )
What's the distance from the Zorro edge of the Prommy to the center of the first PCI slot?
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redrumloa wrote:
How so?
Sigh.. You said it would block 2 Z3 slots for a single PCI video card, or 3 Z3 slots with 2 PCI cards. Leaving the A3000 with only a single Z3 slot and no usable PCI slots wich limits future expansion.
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@adolescent
You are undfair... Zorro2/3 is in it's own a limiting factor. For those who realy need massive expanded systems they will most likely sit with a tower conversion already and the Prometheus would not be a problem then.
Ask yourself what you need for the A3000D... scsi controller and scandoubler on board. Fast and cheap graphiccard and ethernet for the PCI... there's still one zorro or pci slot left if you want an IDE controller, USB controller, flashcard, soundcard or the like but if you want more you probably want a tower aswell anyway.
For the A4000D you won't lose any slots so there's no problem at that end and for tower conversions you will in fact gain some slots.
So please be fair. It still is a sweet way of giving the Amiga fast and cheap graphic and ethernet cards even if it is "just" a Prometheus card.
Ehm.. wait... need to promote Mediator also.. buy one, buy one, buy one... there, now I'm done. ;-)
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What's the distance from the Zorro edge of the Prommy to the center of the first PCI slot?
Too far. I'm not in the shop to measure atm, but trust me.. it BARELY fits in an A3000D, and it is approximately 1/4" too wide for an A4000D. The Voodoo 3 is wider(taller) than the mounting bracket.
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You said it would block 2 Z3 slots for a single PCI video card,
Correct for the Amiga 3000D, with the case closed. However considering this is the only PCI solution for the A3000D, I don't understand what alternative you would recomend. If someone wants to use a Voodoo 3(the fastest gfx card possible in an Amiga) in an original A3000D case,they have no other options. PERIOD.
, or 3 Z3 slots with 2 PCI cards. Leaving the A3000 with only a single Z3 slot and no usable PCI slots wich limits future expansion.
The total number of usable slots in a stock 3000D case drops from 4 to 3 in this configuration. Limits future expansion? How so? The user could either open the case, or towerise the A3000D and use the Prometheus in the original intended manner giving a full 4 usable PCI slots and 3 usable zorro. A A3k desktop case is crammed as it is, I am just happy to be able to provide them a solution when they had none before.
Besides, this only applies for the A3000D. In the A4000D it is a one for one ratio AND you don't lose your video slot. Another first for original A4000D users.