Amiga Platform

[NewRevolution]

Hi guys, I've been away from Amiga for a while - just looking at articles now and then where Amiga promise gold and green forests (a saying in Norway) and delivers nothing :-(

But I want to get back into Amiga and see if there is anything we can do. Amiga lives for only one reason (I believe)  - and that is us, the Amiga community.

So to the core of this thread :-D

Motorola has stoped developing the 680xx processors right? So what new processor technology is the new OS4 built on? What language is used? I've seen there are no SDKs out which is really bad. If Amiga wants to rise, they need the supporting community to start developing software for OS4. What is the point of a new OS if there are no applications available for it?

The most important applications (I believe) are: a "office" packages like Star Office and (urk) Windows Office, multimedia programs and computer games :-p

The OS must be cross platform compatible. It must be able to read / write files from other systems (Microsoft, Mac, Linux / Unix).

Open Source!!! Linux is now a serious threat to Windows - only because of open source concept. I believe that developing programs with the open source principle  is a good start for the rise of Amiga.

In the end; no one wants to use a system that cannot be used with other systems. People must feel that they can "identify" the new Amiga system with allready existing OS/GUI platforms. Preventing users to go through a new learning curb will highly improve the attitude towards the Amiga OS (and GUI).

[Karlos]

Hi,

Lets see. In no particular order...

680x0 development has stopped but the core is still going as coldfire, which at least one guy here is determined to put into just about every 68K amiga model going. Given that the coldfire runs up to 300+ MHz, I hope he succeds :-)

OS4, OTOH, is PowerPC based (60x/G3/G4). It is targetted to run on the AmigaOne series and also (at the time of posting) the CyberStormPPC accelerator for the A4000/A3000. Emulation of the 680x0 processor is built in to allow older 68k programs to function. The emulation is based on a JIT technology rather than interpretation.

The main language for development is still C/C++. The developer tool of choice IIRC is gcc ;-)

OS4 should be largely compatible with 3.1. Given the amount of time and effort put into it I wouldn't hold your breath for an open source version. If that's more your bang, however, check out AROS.

Supporting other filesystems has been there since v2 IIRC

[NewRevolution]

Thanks.

Still, I must be lagging a bit behind.....
What is IIRC and gcc   :-?

Open source or not doesn't really matter.

So if I get a hold of a PowerPC based (60x/G3/G4) system (e.g. Mac) - I can just start programming? Or can i develop applications for Amiga on my PC?
I recon as loong as the coding isn't hardware specific, it doesnt really matter. But if I start programming against file system, memory etc - I should have a Amiga platform.

[downix]

NewRevolution wrote:
Thanks.

Still, I must be lagging a bit behind.....
What is IIRC and gcc   :-?

IIRC == If I Recall Correctly
GCC is a C compiler

Open source or not doesn't really matter.

So if I get a hold of a PowerPC based (60x/G3/G4) system (e.g. Mac) - I can just start programming? Or can i develop applications for Amiga on my PC?
I recon as loong as the coding isn't hardware specific, it doesnt really matter. But if I start programming against file system, memory etc - I should have a Amiga platform.

I am afraid just any PPC solution will not help.  However, there are a few solutions that can help you focus on developing apps that can run on AmigaOS once it arrives:

First, buy an Amiga w/ a PowerPC card.  That limits you to an Amiga 4000 or 1200, with the Phase5 cards.  The 4000 solution especially offers you a rapid case, for you get the actual AmigaOS and will gain earlier access to the next-gen AOS as well as to the Amiga-compatable OS, MorphOS.

Next, if you have a PC already, there is Amithlon.  Amithlon is an emulated Amiga for the PC on a custom Linux kernel.  Not the easiest thing to work with in my experience, but some people enjoy it.

Finally there is the Pegasos motherboard, a PowerPC motherboard that comes with the forementioned MorphOS.  Some people slag off MorphOS, others praise it, but from your viewpoint it might do the job.  Since MorphOS is an AmigaOS-API compatable OS, an application developed for it should re-compile for AmigaOS 4.0 without much effort once it arrives.  Plus then you'd cover your bet, having an app for both PPC'd Amiga solutions.

Some people might mention the AmigaONE motherboard from Eyetech, but it only runs Linux at this point, so for your needs (that is, as a developer) it does not do the job at this point.

That's how the cards fall from my point of view.  And as I know someone will bring it up if I don't mention it, I work for Genesi, the makers of the Pegasos, so I am biased naturally to our solution.  I am trying to present an honest and fair evaluation of your options, however.  I just hope this was helpful.

[dammy]

by downix on 2003/6/8 23:30:40

Next, if you have a PC already, there is Amithlon. Amithlon is an emulated Amiga for the PC on a custom Linux kernel. Not the easiest thing to work with in my experience, but some people enjoy it.

You forgot to tell him about AROS which he can use a standard PC and run either hosted (most perferred if doing any developing on) on Linux or go with a straight (and difficult to do) native install of AROS.

Dammy

[Targhan]

Also Amithlon and Cloanto's AmigaForever.

I have Amithlon, AF, and a Pegasos with MorphOS.  I think I may want to try out AROS too :-)  There should be both PPC and x86 AROS... :-)  So many toys!!  

[NewRevolution]

dammy: Do you have any experience with AROS? Because it looks interesting. Just wondering how compatible it is with my (now about 10 years old) Amiga programs like Opus, DiskMaster and all the other programs I can't remember. And games offcourse!

Targhan: wanna elaborate on  Amithlon, AF,  Pegasos and MorphOS?
These are all new HW / SW to me.

[CodeSmith]

@Downix:

GCC is a C compiler

That's like saying "the sun's a bit bright"  :-D

GCC is one of the best C/C++/Objective-C/Java/Pascal/Fortran compiler suites out there (it's the standard compiler on loads of unices, including linux), and it's free as in Stallman.  You can download just the C or C++ parts though, you don't need the whole enchilada.

[Targhan]

@NewRevolution

Absolutely, I'm more than willing to share what I know.  First, there is AmigaForever (I call it AF), which has the least amount of contriversy surrounding it.  Quite simply, AF is a complete UAE emulation soluton that legally has use of the names, roms, etc.  It is available through Cloanto, the same company/developer that created PPaint.  It has the limitations of an emulator, but in some cases emulation is better than the actual advancement of the platform.  (Example: try to run a game for OS1.3 on a 3.x machine.  Then, try to run it on AF.  Chances are it will work better on AF than on the real Amiga!)  I believe the url for more info is www.cloanto.com (or is it .it ?)

Amithlon.  This is what I would call a "higher class" of emulation.  Amithlon runs on x86, but does not require another OS to be present on the machine.  It uses a modified linux kernal (hidden) to boot up to AmigaOS 3.x.  There are a few bugs, but on a whole the system is really nice.  I have Amithlon on a tri*boot PC, and it's faster than either Linux or Windows on the same computer.  (Your milage may vary)  Unfortunately, there is a war between the two "core developers" of this project.  Talk about flames.. Good grief! The mere mention of Amithlon is sometimes enough to get a war started.  Basically, it's a good system; however, it does show the scars of the constant bickering.  The url for this would be www.amithlon.de. I believe that one of the two main developers is also maintaining a website for Amithlon, but the url escapes me at the moment.

[mikeymike]

Motorola has stoped developing the 680xx processors right? So what new processor technology is the new OS4 built on? What language is used? I've seen there are no SDKs out which is really bad. If Amiga wants to rise, they need the supporting community to start developing software for OS4. What is the point of a new OS if there are no applications available for it?

PPC.  There is an ever-so-slight problem of chicken and egg here.  Regardless of SDKs, it' s a tad difficult to develop for a currently non-existent platform.  Any current developers know how they'll need to develop stuff for OS4, but newcomers are what the platform needs.

As Hyperion/AI have said before, OS4 is just the beginning, to get something "out there" with a reasonable compliment of basic new features.  Once OS4 is released and shipping on AmigaOnes, then people outside the community will begin to see that the platform is actually running again and isn't just being powered by vapour.

After OS4 come more features to bring AmigaOS back up to scratch to be able to compare with other operating systems, and to draw in new [newbie] customers.

The most important applications...

True.

The OS must be cross platform compatible. It must be able to read / write files from other systems (Microsoft, Mac, Linux / Unix).

Presumably you mean it must be able to read other operating systems *filesystems*, rather than their files.  Of course it can "read" and "write" to the files, they're just files, but if you mean "can it read and properly parse a Word file", then no.  That's the job of another piece of software, as is the case on every platform.

Open Source!!! Linux is now a serious threat to Windows - only because of open source concept. I believe that developing programs with the open source principle is a good start for the rise of Amiga.

The platform still needs an army of developers, open sourcing or not.  Personally I think it needs a 50/50 mix of the two types, commercial and opensource.  The platform has to get back into the OS race quickly in order to keep its current supporters and to attract newcomers.

In the end; no one wants to use a system that cannot be used with other systems.

That's a very broad term.  Care to elaborate?

Preventing users to go through a new learning curb will highly improve the attitude towards the Amiga OS (and GUI).

I disagree to a certain extent.  I agree once you get to the extreme of "horrendous amounts to be learnt otherwise you can't use anything on the platform".  However, talking about "preventing users from going through a learning curve" is tantamount to saying "it should work just like Windows".  Which we don't want.  Thinking that users shouldn't have to learn anything just helps perpetuate the same kind of user ignorance that is rife today.

I don't think users should have to learn everything there is to learn about a platform, but at the moment there is an attitude of not wanting to learn "because they shouldn't have to".  A good practical working knowledge for using a computer: installing apps, knowing where you put your files, steering clear of trojans/viruses, file management, and general day-to-day apps usage (everything they need to know to do what they need to do regarding that app).

It really gets my back up when I've told the same person for the fiftieth time how to find the Control Panel on Win9x and they still have to ask.  This is because that kind of person places no value on learning that kind of thing.  To me, that would be like a person owning a car and having to have a techie to switch on the stereo for them.

[Targhan]

Pegasos: A PPC mainboard that is designed to run MorphOS, along with several other OS's.  This can be compared to the AmigaONE hardware, and it often is.  It is rumored that there may be an OS4 kit for Pegasos, but it may have been part of flamebait.  Irregardless, in the forums here, Pegasos is tied to the "Great OS4 MorphOS Debate."  I wish I had more solid ground for this, but, sadly, I do not.  I do believe AROS is being ported (Which is another Amiga-ish OS, which I have to investigate more myself).

MorphOS... Oh yeah, mentioning either OS4 or MorphOS here is almost asking for a flame war.  It seems as if the two (AmigaOS / MorphOS) are diametrically opposed.  MorphOS is very difficult to explain, in that it is a new OS but also a reimplementation of the AmigaOS.  The most blatent difference between the two (other than who is flaming whom) is that MorphOS has integrated MUI rather than ClassAct (classact is now called reaction, fyi).

The best place for information on the Pegasos is PegasosPPC.

And for MorphOS: www.morphos.net.

NewRevolution: Please check out the various websites before spending too much time reading the flames that are bound to happen.

(Equel opportunity time here: more info on OS4 is at os.amiga.com.)

[Emufreak]

NewRevolution wrote:
dammy: Do you have any experience with AROS? Because it looks interesting. Just wondering how compatible it is with my (now about 10 years old) Amiga programs like Opus, DiskMaster and all the other programs I can't remember. And games offcourse!

Targhan: wanna elaborate on  Amithlon, AF,  Pegasos and MorphOS?
These are all new HW / SW to me.

AROS is source Code Compatible with Amiga Apps. This means they have to be recompiled. With older Games who use the graphics custom chip of the Amiga you won't have any luck. Newer Games who support graphics card should work after a recompile too. Well at least when AROS will be finished.

[CodeSmith]

@NewRevolution:

Since you're new here, let me give you a bit of background... the amiga is currently split into two subgroups, one is the group that favours the Morphos/Pegasos solution (as Downix mentioned, he leans that way) and the other favours the AmigaOS4/AmigaOne solution (I lean in that other direction, but am just a prospective customer).  The split basically got created because people got tired of waiting for an new Amiga.

First was Morphos, this started life as the OS for an Amiga that never saw the light of day (the Pre/Box IIRC).  A few years later a company (which would become Genesi) started work on another Amiga successor, and decided to use Morphos instead of starting from scratch.  At the head of this group is someone called Bill Buck, he is the CEO (I think?) of Genesi, and sometimes posts using the handle "bbrv".  Genesi basically grew from the well-known expansion card company Phase 5.  The Pegasos is a PPC motherboard designed by Phase5 engineers, but because of a dispute over hardware bugs with MAI Logic (the makers of one of the core chips in the Pegasos), only 600 were made.  Most were sold, but there should be some stock left though.  A second-generation Pegasos has been announced, which uses chips by a different manufacturer.

On the other side, there is a trio of companies: Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion Entertainment.  Amiga, Inc was formed by a few ex-employees of Gateway (the "cow" computer company), which bought enough intellectual property rights from Gateway to be able to sell "amiga" branded machines.  Its CEO is Bill McEwen, and its CTO is Fleecy Moss.  They are involved in two things called "amiga": the Amiga DE, which is a Java-like technology that should let you run the same binaries in many devices.  It's taking some time to catch on.  The other is the Amiga as you remember.  Amiga Inc is a very small company, so they decided to license the "Amiga" brand name to others to make hardware and software.  Eyetech is a UK company that also sells Amiga addons, they signed up to sell new Amiga hardware (the CEO of Eyetech is Alan Redhouse).  After some time and false starts, they decided to sell a modified version of the MAI Logic "Teron" motherboard under the name "AmigaOne".  The operating system (AmigaOS4) is being developed by Hyperion Entertainment, a Belgian company.  Hyperion's CEO is Ben Hermans and the senior developers behind OS4 are a pair of identical twins called Hans-Joerg and Thomas Frieden.  AmigaOS4 has been in development a little under two years, and has had its first public demonstration this weekend.

Now for the fun part: both groups are bitter rivals, and the source of many flame wars here and at www.ann.lu (another amiga chat site).  The reason I did all that name-dropping above was because the corporate officers of these companies, who really should know better, often drop in during these heated exchanges.

A nasty side effect of this rivalry is that the OS you choose to run determines the hardware you buy - you won't be able to run AmigaOS4 on a Pegasos (Amiga Inc and Genesi can't reach a licensing agreement), and the MorphOS team may or may not want to support AmigaOne motherboards (since then Genesi might sell fewer Pegasos motherboards).  

One interesting factoid: you might have noticed that the same company (MAI Logic) that made the chip that Genesi claims to be defective, makes the AmigaOne motherboard.  The AmigaOne also uses the same chip (called the "Articia S northbridge").  Genesi (and its supporters) claim that the chip is hopelessly flawed, while Eyetech (and it's supporters) claim the chip just has a few harmless quirks that can easily be worked around in the drivers.  There are plenty of very vocal supporters of both theories, but as far as I can tell, no uninterested party has definitely determined what the real deal is.

Bottom line: treat anything you read with a pinch of salt, even if (some might say especially if) it comes from one of the "big kahunas" I named above.

Other than that, sit down, have fun!  :-D

[EDIT] I forgot to mention AROS... they are a third possibility, they are source-compatible with AmigaOS on non-68K machines (AROS can run on x86 PCs) and binary-compatible on 68K hardware.  They have somehow managed to stay out of the fights, probably because they're open source and so no money is involved...

[Targhan]

@codesmith

Well said.

[CodeSmith]

Thanks :-)

I felt the need to give the guy some warning, before he wandered into some flamefest and decided we're all nuts  :-D