Reinvent the OS cont

[kolla]

Iggy, I have issues with you calling the DragonFly kernel a micro kernel, it is not a micro kernel design, it is a hybrid at best, with some features most known from micro kernel environments. If DragonFly is a micro kernel, then FreeBSD is too, or any *ix that pushes features out in userland. Do you consider Darwin a micro kernel OS? It used to be.

I find it funny how DragonFly keeps coming up as a buzz word among amiga users, but how many of those mentioning it has actually used it?! For the record, I have, at work even, evaluating HAMMER for possible use in production environments. Eagerly awaiting HAMMER2 to evaluate for a possible multimaster cluster FS solution.

[kolla]

if there was a community built 68k computer, what bus do you think would be good to use?
Vme, zorro, s100, etc.

usb3

[kolla]

BTW - You all ARE aware that Amiga OS is considered a micro kernel OS, aren't you?

No it is not, it is an exokernel, that much is obvious.

[Iggy]

Iggy, I have issues with you calling the DragonFly kernel a micro kernel, it is not a micro kernel design, it is a hybrid at best, with some features most known from micro kernel environments. If DragonFly is a micro kernel, then FreeBSD is too, or any *ix that pushes features out in userland. Do you consider Darwin a micro kernel OS? It used to be.

I find it funny how DragonFly keeps coming up as a buzz word among amiga users, but how many of those mentioning it has actually used it?! For the record, I have, at work even, evaluating HAMMER for possible use in production environments. Eagerly awaiting HAMMER2 to evaluate for a possible multimaster cluster FS solution.

Yes, its not a true micro kernel. It has layers. I'm used to that with other true micro kernel OS'. I've mentioned OS9 before, its kernel grew into two distinct segments in its last 8 bit version and remains fairly large in the 68k version.
But your right, DragonFly really stretches the definition, and its more of a hybrid.
And its not the first UNIX or Linux variant that has tried this.
Still, if we were to approach this it would have to be a clean start.
Really all we are talking about is applying so of the  improvements that have become common in process control OS' since Amiga OS was created.
We can definately improve on real time response and reliable multi-tasking.
Having a GUI that was OpenGL ES compatible would be nice.
I don't know enough about audio standards to make any real suggestion, except maybe to have a coprocessor to help lighten that task.
Other issues, what processor ('030, '040, '060, or FPGA), what type of memory, and what kind of expansion bus?
So, again, any ideas?

All I'm sure about is the kernel, since a micro kernel is our legacy, our current reality (as in MorphOS, and probably OS4), and our likely future.

Oh, and one suggestion for video.
While its old, we know enough about the R200 to make that an easy target.

[Fats]

I find it funny how DragonFly keeps coming up as a buzz word among amiga users, but how many of those mentioning it has actually used it?!

I do have it installed in a VM but did not actually use it much. I'm more a Linux guy than a *BSD guy.
The reason DragonFlyBSD is mentioned is of course because of Matt Dillon who has a history in the Amiga world. (People who know what a Fish disk is should also know Matt and DICE).
He did base some of the internals of DF on Amiga architecture. AFAICS they are not exported to user land but I think that is the first thing to do for a retought incompatible Amiga-like OS.
Personally I think anyone who want to come up with a totally new OS architecture is DOA (dead-on-arrival). The OS market is mature enough that I think it is impossible to get track on something totally different (see it like the flying cars etc.). GNU bootstrapped on commercial UNIX, Linux bootstrapped on GNU, Android bootstrapped on Linux, all *BSD bootstrapped on original Berkely UNIX, MINIX is now using NetBSD, Win NT has links with VMS although there are debates on how strongly they are, ...

Although my AROS dev work (any Amiga dev work actually) is really low to non-existing at the moment one of the goals for me was to see how far one could go with the Amiga architecture and API without breaking backwards compatibility.

[Iggy]

Understandable Staf,
I'm still unsure that a break with compatibility is such a hot idea.
I'm a bit of a Neanderthal when it comes to MorphOS.
I'm in no hurry to see an ISA change, and I'd like to see Abox remain intact while we pursue a second concurrent environment that could make use of the features that would break compatibility (SMP, larger memory maps, etc).

Hey Kolla,
What is an exokernel? I don't think I have heard that term before. Educate me.

Oh...I looked that up. Its a very apt description for the Amiga kernel.

[Iggy]

I like the OS 9 microkernel approach. Should you have software to run on it as its ready? E.g. goal:
Networking
File manager
are some suggestions.

We had those running in the early 90's.
What we could have used was a better GUI.
We ported an X-windows based package called G-Windows that had been created by Steve Adams for a company that specialized in process control systems, Gespac.
It worked, but like a lot of Linux (and virtually all UNIX) derivatives you still had to use the CLI to get some things done.
Personally, while I can see the utility in a terminal window, I'd prefer that it be the instrument of last recourse (you should be able to do virtually everything you need through the GUI).

Oh, and with all deference to Staf, I'm still farting around with obscure micro kernel OS'.
We have to remember that Linux only makes up about 1% of the marketplace.
BSD, considerably less.
Amiga like OS'? Probably an insignificant percentage.
So what?
Does that mean I have to use a more common solution?
No, not if what I am using provides me with the utility I need.

I'm sorry to see good, committed AROS developers dropping out just as the project is reaching completion.

Drawing users to a new 68K OS? Probably not too realistic, but I'd like to have it to play around with. And a Coldfire version would be an easy port.
With the Coldfire V1 cpu available as a royalty free FPGA core and cores for the 68K steadily improving, future hardware could be built with better performance than our legacy hardware.

[trekiej]

I hope this question is not too outdated.
Video games aside, does the Amiga need a lot to do productivity software?
Would it need a special card for video editing and effects?
1983 posts

[Iggy]

I hope this question is not too outdated.
Video games aside, does the Amiga need a lot to do productivity software?
Would it need a special card for video editing and effects?
1983 posts

Yes, it requires additional hardware, but at one time the Amiga was the leader in low cost video manipulation.
Although, these days with the advent of digital video, its quite dated.

[kolla]

This is depressing, nothing new here since the 90ies

[kolla]

Iggy, what market place? All Android devices are Linux, all ChromeOS devices are Linux, most SOHO networking gear, NAS etc are Linux... embedded Linux is taking over the world. And if it isn't Linux, it is a BSD, all iOS devices, OSX, JunOS, more SOHO equipment, storage solutions... pretty much the entire world is running on various types of *ix.

Your 1% is meaningless!

[Iggy]

Iggy, what market place? All Android devices are Linux, all ChromeOS devices are Linux, most SOHO networking gear, NAS etc are Linux... embedded Linux is taking over the world. And if it isn't Linux, it is a BSD, all iOS devices, OSX, JunOS, more SOHO equipment, storage solutions... pretty much the entire world is running on various types of *ix.
Your 1% is meaningless!

I guess I meant traditional computers.
But these days other devices have blurred that line.
I probably browse the internet on my phone more often than on my computer (and yes, its an Android phone).
And Android seems to have a lock on all tablets that aren't made by Apple.
Further, OSX is BSD, sort of anyway, although I'd tend to place it in its own category (as I would iOS).
If you start looking for UNIX everywhere you'll soon realize that even Windows has some UNIX legacy.

But does that make it good?
UNIX was designed when I was growing up, its legacy is about 50 years old.
And it never was that efficient, nor is it anything like real time.
I remember Xenix  running on 68K computers and Amigas would run circles around those in terms of performance.
And the process control OS' I used to be focused on, while having some similarity to UNIX, were all designed for real time mission critical applications.

To be pointed, I'm tired of all this monolithic buggy crap I'm being encouraged to use.
Even my Samsung phone periodically wigs out and has to be restarted.
And Windows and OSX, while not nearly as problematic as in the past, also still occasionally crash.  

As to the 1%, as a member of the definitely sub 1% (as are all Amigans), I actually feel pretty comfortable in the belief that things could be SO much better.

[trekiej]

I believe the Amiga is a great computer platform and do not want people to think that I am cutting down on it.
I believe the FPGA Amiga's are a partial answer to the lack of hardware.
Sorry, I keep defaulting back to Aros Native as an answer to modern needs.
My Christmas list is having Aros 68K or Amiga OS 3.X to have 3D acceleration in Emulation.
Then what?
More Devs?
IDK.
edit:
This is what I like about Hollywood's latest release.
I like the idea of writing software for Amiga OS and have it easily ported to Aros, etc.
I am still leaning on the idea of Aros, Amiga OS 4.x and Morph OS as being good paths to take.
Aros first because of the availability of hardware.
If Amiga OS4.X is Amiga, then Amiga still exists, at least in some form.
Unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of using Morph OS.
It would be interesting to see an ad-in card for Aros that can be a Toaster like card.
That is, it would be awesome if Aros can do 1080p and up to 4K for video editing.
Could a program made in Hollywood do this?

[Iggy]

I believe the Amiga is a great computer platform and do not want people to think that I am cutting down on it.
I believe the FPGA Amiga's are a partial answer to the lack of hardware.
Sorry, I keep defaulting back to Aros Native as an answer to modern needs.
My Christmas list is having Aros 68K or Amiga OS 3.X to have 3D acceleration in Emulation.
Then what?
More Devs?
IDK.
edit:
This is what I like about Hollywood's latest release.
I like the idea of writing software for Amiga OS and have it easily ported to Aros, etc.
I am still leaning on the idea of Aros, Amiga OS 4.x and Morph OS as being good paths to take.
Aros first because of the availability of hardware.
If Amiga OS4.X is Amiga, then Amiga still exists, at least in some form.
Unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of using Morph OS.
It would be interesting to see an ad-in card for Aros that can be a Toaster like card.
That is, it would be awesome if Aros can do 1080p and up to 4K for video editing.
Could a program made in Hollywood do this?

Well, I'm convinced that any OS following the 3.1 API is essentially Amiga.
This will offend the purists, but the hardware was getting outdated at the end of production anyway and we were moving to RTG and accelerator cards at that time.
The thing that baffles me is why more people aren't proud of the fact that, primarily through community support, we still continue to soldier on.
And thanks to Cloanto, we now have a valid source for OS3.1.
Given time, AROS 68K may become competitive with that.
And the NG machines continue to mature.
I expect to see 4K displays on all three platforms become relatively common.

[Fats]

I'm sorry to see good, committed AROS developers dropping out just as the project is reaching completion.

FYI, I did not drop out; I'm just hibernated

[trekiej]

1984 posts.
Amiga Spirit?
Hmmm, I am not for sure what to say.
I believe people follow the money.
What do you think makes Aros better than Widows or Linux?
That is an old question.
Commercialization and popularity are two interesting factors that need to be dealt with.
Driving force is needed to make it move forward.
I know that there are some that are very dedicated.
I am for sure they deserve a lot a credit.
Sorry to all, I do not read all the posts as close as I should.
(No excuse)
Have a great day.