Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on June 27, 2007, 09:39:05 PM
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New court filings (http://www.amithlon.net/courtdocs/docket42a.pdf) are pretty stunning, really. Looks like Hyperion's legal team may be getting it's act together! At first I figured AI would have a home run, but after reading this I'm not so sure.
It's all there, all of the dirty laundry is there. This puts it all in legal documents and calls it fraud. The coupon scheme, the party pack scheme, the illegal corporate shell game, everything.
Boy is this getting down and dirty, Hyperion may pull an upset.
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And when this is all over, then we get a new Amiga, right?
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moto
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And when this is all over, then we get a new Amiga, right?
:lol: :roflmao:
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funny it's just now accruing to some people that Amiga inc may not be legal? LOL
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Well the document makes very interesting reading we will have to wait how long for a verdict on all those points and information raisedf there in????Personally I just want this all to be sorted once and for all?
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And when this is all over, then we get a new Amiga, right?
Nope, just an old musty smelling T-shirt. :-D
Pete
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Boy is this getting down and dirty, Hyperion may pull an upset.
It's more fluff trying to cover up what AI has pointed out in Hyperion's failures. End of the day, AI was not insolvent via Title 11 (they had Amiga IP which they can show they bought from Gateway2K for millions so they were still had capital, jut not liquid capital at that point in time) and according to another Federal Government entity (USPTO), Amiga DE owns the Amiga IP. Then there is Hyperion accepting $25K from Itec for OS4 and failed to produce it would could be considered wire or mail fraud. Are we having fun yet?
Dammy
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Well the document makes very interesting reading we will have to wait how long for a verdict on all those points and information raisedf there in????Personally I just want this all to be sorted once and for all?
This is Federal Court, could very well take years. Five years wouldn't be unheard of. Then the lengthy appeals start. Are we having fun yet? Hope Hyperion has some very deep pockets. :-D
Dammy
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@dammy
jut not liquid capital at that point in time = insolvent.
not that I don't think both parties are pretty low, it smells like something died over in the AI corner...... somebody open a window!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency
But to show me that under Title 11 which what counts in Federal Court. Then show me under which ever title, it's retroactively enforceable.
Then that's another court hearing forcing AI WA into involuntary bankruptsy (which I believe takes three creditors). Now that could rip Amiga IP away from Amiga DE. Of course, Bolton and others who have court ordered judgements would get first monies from AUCTION of assets (Amiga IP). Benji's contract about getting OS4 is not enforceable under US Code.
Then there is the issue of Hyperion accepting the $25K as apart of the OS4 buy back and failing to produce the source code and object code. That could be forced into yet another court system for mail or wire fraud.
:popcorn:
Now the chances that
1. Court will find this interesting enough to dig that deep.
2. Hyperion's legal fund is in the millions
3. Pennti's pockets are that shallow
Are pretty damn remote. Of course, then you have years worth of appeals to the highier courts, should AI lose.
Dammy
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who knows, ANYTHING could happen!
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who knows, ANYTHING could happen!
Unlikely since it's based on US Code and case law.
Dammy
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dammy wrote:
It's more fluff trying to cover up what AI has pointed out in Hyperion's failures. End of the day, AI was not insolvent via Title 11 (they had Amiga IP which they can show they bought from Gateway2K for millions so they were still had capital, jut not liquid capital at that point in time) and according to another Federal Government entity (USPTO), Amiga DE owns the Amiga IP. Then there is Hyperion accepting $25K from Itec for OS4 and failed to produce it would could be considered wire or mail fraud. Are we having fun yet?
I don't know about all that Dammy, Hyperion is suddenly making a good case IMO. According to Jens Shoenfeld Amiga Inc is completely unable to prove ownership of AmigaOS and thinks they are "crooks". I think the key piece here is Amiga Inc Deleware is not a legal entity. If you read the whole filing, it spells it out pretty well.
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I don't know about all that Dammy, Hyperion is suddenly making a good case IMO. According to Jens Shoenfeld Amiga Inc is completely unable to prove ownership of AmigaOS and thinks they are "crooks". I think the key piece here is Amiga Inc Deleware is not a legal entity. If you read the whole filing, it spells it out pretty well.
I'll be standing in line with the others thinking AI is unethical business. I can't see where Hyperion is going with this. They can't get the IP from AI WA, creditors get money after it's liquidated. Hyperion can not get the IP first, it's not allowed under US Code (because then companies can't play asset shell games all day long). So if the court case is dimissed, Hyperion would have to file a law suit seeking transfer of the IP which the courts will not allow since there are creditors in front of Hyperion.
Dammy
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SO basically Hyperion thinks because AI went bankrupt in WA they can take over AmigaOS and call it their own? That is BS...
Does this all mean Amiga Inc cannot release AmigaOS 4.x until this is resolved? This can take years! But hey for Amigans who cares right? We can be running AmigaOS 4 on a 800MHz G4 in 2012 and be just as happy as we are running OS 3.9 on a A1200 with 030 now!! Yeah right! :banana:
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@dammy
(because then companies can play asset shell games all day long)
can they? let's find out.
@TjLaZer
SO basically Hyperion thinks because AI went bankrupt in WA they can take over AmigaOS and call it their own? That is BS...
they don't just think so there contracts states that it is so...either way it does not matter much, in the end things will be better if AI looses, they have been dead weight for a long time now.
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Well, no matter what happens, I did finally get my t-shirt.
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(because then companies can play asset shell games all day long)
Sorry, I ment to type "Can't".
Dammy
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Wow. They acutally did it. They implied they would, but I didn't think they'd go through with it. Kudos to Hyperion for that one. The fact that they brought up the coupon sh!t, means they actually INTEND to do something *FOR* the Amiga, rather than for themselves.
:-o
Kids, for all the bad press, these guys, unlike AI, seem like they want to be taken seriously and are legit.
I hope they win.
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AI knows they're screwed. Why else would they (or Itec at least) send the $25k check only 7 days ago? :laugh:
BTW, I'm not a big fan of Hyperion, but I'd rather see a company that can actually do something for the community come out ahead.
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Hyperion takes bat, swings for McBill's head!
and Bill's head splits open like a ripe watermelon. looks like AInc is in deep sheet as they're desperate enough to send checks around ...
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$25K was just sent to Hyperion a week ago? I thought it was already paid from before?
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@Tj
Page 6, line items 26 and 27.
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I am actually rooting for Hyperion. I mean come on what has Amiga done for us in the last oh I don't know (when did Billy acquire it?) what 6 yrs or so. Well they obviously raised good money from the coupon BS and have what just recently put up plans for an overpriced POS machine, that hey what happened to the update on that (what 2 months ago supposedly). And how about that ACK company (or one man show whatever), it was just another scheme by AINC to try to get us hyped up about nothing ...again. If Hyperion wins at least there is a company that shows it gives a damn somewhat about the Amiga instead of dragging its name in the dirt for their own personal gain. Go Hyperion hell with Bill McEwen, Fleecy and all the other idiots we been stuck with. Man I wish Petro was running things, he was an awesome dude (well still is). Anyways cheers and good luck to Hyperion.
:rtfm: :rtfm: :hammer: :griping: :destroy: :quickdraw: :devildance: :devildance:
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@Amigakid
I Agree with you about that, AINC has been the obstruction to Amiga OS development for years now, the only thing AINC did in my eyes is damaging the Amiga OS over the past years.
Hyperion at least did develop OS4 and if Hyperion get's all rights to Amiga OS including the name for only the OS.
I think this actually will be a good thing.
The only reason i think AINC is doing this whole legal action is TAO being sold to another comapny and leaving AINC with what ?!?
The last thing left out there is os4 for AINC, and is trying to get that back by "trademark blah blah blah"
I hope AINC disappears never to been seen again. :madashell:
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And what a good swing they have! :-D
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dammy wrote:
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Then there is the issue of Hyperion accepting the $25K as apart of the OS4 buy back and failing to produce the source code and object code.
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Didn't you read the documents?
On page 6 of 19, paragraph 27 (line 9), the document states:
"Hyperion rejected ITEC's efforts to exercise rights under the agreement and returned the $25.000 check."
Still any questions?
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Dandy wrote:
Didn't you read the documents?
On page 6 of 19, paragraph 27 (line 9), the document states:
"Hyperion rejected ITEC's efforts to exercise rights under the agreement and returned the $25.000 check."
Still any questions?
lol... Well, that's one way of avoiding the buy-in clause.. lol
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BinoX wrote:
lol... Well, that's one way of avoiding the buy-in clause.. lol
Funny that Itec/AI would think they would be stupid enough to accept the check after bringing them to court. :crazy:
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adolescent wrote:
Funny that Itec/AI would think they would be stupid enough to accept the check after bringing them to court. :crazy:
Offcourse they knew the check would come back, but what if the judge finds, that the OS was infact finished late last year, and that the old payments weren't for the buyback ?
Well now Itec could still say "we send them a check within 6 months".
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@Kronos
But that's if Itec really has any claim to the Amiga properties (which the document infers).
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There'll probably be some debate on when the OS was "finished". It's not unusual for an OS to be released and then patched continuously afterwards. It's really up to the better legal team to convince the court of how finished "finished" is.
If I was working for AI, I wouldn't be too worried about my future. If they lose, they'd make really great used car salesmen.
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I still think that AInc. is the victim here!
-bestiality image removed by moderator-
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I think no parties involved can really be called a victim, considering all the things that have happened in the past.
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@TjLaZer
SO basically Hyperion thinks because AI went bankrupt in WA they can take over AmigaOS and call it their own? That is BS...
That's basically what their contract stated according to the court documents that I read. If Amiga Washington is insolvent or non-existant or doesn't deliver they own Amiga OS4 and the right to market it using that name.
As far as being happy. I run WinUAE on my dual core AMD processor and it runs everything very fast.. Final Writer, Final Calc, Final Data, Professional Page..
All run great off my widescreen HDTV at 1280x768 resolution. For what I do with publishing it's a great solution. Though admittedly I do have Office Ultimate 2007 for tasks that go beyond there capabilities. For everyday stuff though even in 2007 these old apps have not really left me wanting for much...
-Don
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Kronos wrote:
adolescent wrote:
Funny that Itec/AI would think they would be stupid enough to accept the check after bringing them to court. :crazy:
Offcourse they knew the check would come back, but what if the judge finds, that the OS was infact finished late last year, and that the old payments weren't for the buyback ?
Well now Itec could still say "we send them a check within 6 months".
This of course assumes that Itec is indeed the proper holder of the rights given by the agreement. Hyperion claims that the transfer to Itec and later the transfer to KMOS was not properly executed. Whether that's true or not is of course for the courts to decide.
Hopefully more of this drama will be unveiled as time goes on. The picture as to what was going on at Amiga Inc. is becoming increasingly clear, but the truth surrounding Hyperion's actions is still somewhat fuzzy.
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Dandy wrote:
Didn't you read the documents?
On page 6 of 19, paragraph 27 (line 9), the document states:
"Hyperion rejected ITEC's efforts to exercise rights under the agreement and returned the $25.000 check."
Still any questions?
I love how one letter and an uncashed check takes Hyperions 25% chance of winning to 10% or less. It was really clever, I'm not sure who came up with it, but he earned his money with that one move.
-Tig
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? If anything It increased Hyperion's chances of winning!
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If the judge finds that OS4 was finished 2003 the check is irrelevant, cos the deadline long expired.
If the judge finds that Itec holds no rights the check is also irrelevant.
But the judge may find that OS4 was indeed only finished in 2006.
And he may also find Itec does hold rights.
In that case Itec can now claim that they have tried to "buy-back" before the deadline expired.
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OK sorry if this is a stupid question, Who is ITec?
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guru-666 wrote:
? If anything It increased Hyperion's chances of winning!
Not at all. The entire Itec-KMOS transfer is a non-issue now (though it always should have been), the entire they didnt pay us enough is now a non-issue. The only thing Hyperion has left is AI(Washington) was legally insolvent on April 23, 2003 (no true, so thats not going to work) and we completed the OS in December of 2004 but didnt pay anyone like we were supposed to when it was completed, and we also didnt tell AI we were done, instead we kept working on it until December of 2006, when we actually told everyone we were done, so they paid us too late, but we still didnt send them back all that money they gave us for the buyback. Thats not going to go well either. Why on earth do you think this helps Hyperions case, they've invalidated half of there points in one fell swoop.
-Tig
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It's funny how everyone is so anti piracy on here with regards to sending Kickstart ROMs, Workbench disks and similar things, but when the "latest" OPERATING SYSTEM is being ripped off and sold by a 3rd party nobody thinks that is wrong??? Jeeze. Amiga, Inc is obviously still in business and had contracted out to have the OS created, but they own the OS! I see it going in their favor. Good thing this is happening in a US court.
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TjLaZer wrote:
OK sorry if this is a stupid question, Who is ITec?
Itec was the first secured creditor of AI, it bought the classic OS, including the Unholy Trio contract from AI on April 23, 2003, on April 24, 2003 - Hyperion signed a contract with Itec agreeing to provide the OS to them for the $25K buy back fee that was in the original contract. Itec sent $20K and McEwen and of the other officers sent $2500 each to cover the total amount. Eventually Itec sold the OS to KMOS, Hyperion has been arguing that because the money didnt all come from Itec, etc that it wasn't valid, so Itec wrote a check for $25K to them again, with comments in the letter that they believed this bill had already been paid. This has basically taken any Itec-KMOS transfer out of the loop, because Itec itself is trying to get Hyperion to provide the product they believed they had already bought from Hyperion and sold to KMOS.
-Tig
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It's still one bunch of crooks beating up on another bunch of crooks. Whoever wins the Amiga lost a long time ago.
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TjLaZer wrote:
when the "latest" OPERATING SYSTEM is being ripped off and sold by a 3rd party nobody thinks that is wrong??? Jeeze. Amiga, Inc is obviously still in business and had contracted out to have the OS created, but they own the OS! I see it going in their favor. Good thing this is happening in a US court.
Whos pirating what ? I think you don't get the picture here, the way I see it OS4 belongs to Hyperion cause they MADE it, and AINC did NOTHING and we all know that. AINC are the pirates here cause they're trying to steal OS4 from Hyperion using contracts and legal {bleep}. In the worst case scenario Hyperion could sell OS4 under a different name and send bogus sources to AINC if they need to. AInc can't win anything even if they win the at the court.
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bhoggett wrote:
It's still one bunch of crooks beating up on another bunch of crooks. Whoever wins the Amiga lost a long time ago.
Couldn't of put it better myself.
Think I'll wait for Morphos 2 and have nothing to do with either of these companies.
http://www.lincsamiga.org.uk
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countzero wrote:
Whos pirating what ? I think you don't get the picture here, the way I see it OS4 belongs to Hyperion cause they MADE it, and AINC did NOTHING and we all know that.
Hyperion got the job to do OS4 it's not theirs, Ainc contracted out the job. To create Amiga Inc's OS4.
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Tigger wrote:
guru-666 wrote:
? If anything It increased Hyperion's chances of winning!
Not at all. The entire Itec-KMOS transfer is a non-issue now (though it always should have been), the entire they didnt pay us enough is now a non-issue. The only thing Hyperion has left is AI(Washington) was legally insolvent on April 23, 2003 (no true, so thats not going to work) and we completed the OS in December of 2004 but didnt pay anyone like we were supposed to when it was completed, and we also didnt tell AI we were done, instead we kept working on it until December of 2006, when we actually told everyone we were done, so they paid us too late, but we still didnt send them back all that money they gave us for the buyback. Thats not going to go well either. Why on earth do you think this helps Hyperions case, they've invalidated half of there points in one fell swoop.
-Tig
Don't Hyperion also claim that the IP transfer from Amiga W to Itec, was invalid, even fraudulent? You're right that the arguments regarding the Itec to KMOS and then Amiga D are now a non-issue, but to me, it looks like the arguments will now be redirected to Itec. It's the same arguments, just a different target (owned and run by the same people).
Hans
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Regardless, we need a resolution and quickly, "so the world may know....."
*snort*
Note - "so the world may know" is a registered Trademark of Amiga, Inc. They have nothing of value, other than that catch phrase and only businesses with an established market of 500k per year, are allowed to use it and only with a signed license from Amiga, Inc. The catch phrase will be bundled with a sub-standard, buggy font, printed in limited numbers and only with a $1000 "The world has no idea" coupon or a $5000 "Party on, Wayne" Club T-Shirt. License and restrictions do indeed apply. Not available in Puerto Rico.
Hey, I just thought of something. Does this mean, if Hyperion wins, we have the "So the world may know" Stadium??? :roll: :lol:
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TjLaZer wrote:
It's funny how everyone is so anti piracy on here with regards to sending Kickstart ROMs, Workbench disks and similar things, but when the "latest" OPERATING SYSTEM is being ripped off and sold by a 3rd party nobody thinks that is wrong??? Jeeze. Amiga, Inc is obviously still in business and had contracted out to have the OS created, but they own the OS! I see it going in their favor. Good thing this is happening in a US court.
The issues aren't that simple. According to the license agreement, Hyperion own their work on OS4 until Amiga Inc. exercises their "buy-in" (or "buy-back"). In the mean-time they can market and sell it using the associated Amiga trademarks.
Amiga Inc. claim that they paid the $25000 + outstanding debts in full, and therefore should get the source-code. Hyperion claims that this is not the case. Piracy really doesn't come into it. Both sides are trying to protect what they see as theirs.
Hans
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bhoggett wrote:
It's still one bunch of crooks beating up on another bunch of crooks. Whoever wins the Amiga lost a long time ago.
Spy vs Spy
Crook vs Crook
Sounds like a new cartoon. :lol:
Hans
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bhoggett wrote:
It's still one bunch of crooks beating up on another bunch of crooks. Whoever wins the Amiga lost a long time ago.
Yep, this is one big pile of doodoo. Any chance of the name Amiga being taken seriously again has disappeared long ago. The remaining parties, though, seem intent on driving that little bit that's left of the Amiga name completely and utterly into the ground. Amiga should've disappeared along with Commodore...
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cpfuture wrote:
bhoggett wrote:
It's still one bunch of crooks beating up on another bunch of crooks. Whoever wins the Amiga lost a long time ago.
Yep, this is one big pile of doodoo. Any chance of the name Amiga being taken seriously again has disappeared long ago.
In relation to this lawsuit, the Amiga name isn't really tarnished in the eyes of the average consumer, simply because this lawsuit doesn't even register on their horizon. Apart from the few thousand of us visiting the various Amiga fora, nobosy even knows, or cares, that it's happening.
Hans
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The only thing Hyperion has left is AI(Washington) was legally insolvent on April 23, 2003 (no true, so thats not going to work)
Of course not, it was only Bill McEwen committing perjury, but who cares...
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pixie wrote:
The only thing Hyperion has left is AI(Washington) was legally insolvent on April 23, 2003 (no true, so thats not going to work)
Of course not, it was only Bill McEwen committing perjury, but who cares...
First of all, McEwen himself said they basically werent insolvent under Title 11, he listed the assets they had, trademarks, etc. If the value of them, is greater then the value of the debts, under Title 11 they arent insolvent. The value of the Amiga Trademarks, OS, etc exceeds the value of the debts at the time. No court ever found the company insolvent, so just because AI had no cash on hand, doesnt mean they were legally insolvent in the US.
-Tig
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First of all, McEwen himself said they basically werent insolvent under Title 11, he listed the assets they had, trademarks, etc. If the value of them, is greater then the value of the debts, under Title 11 they arent insolvent. The value of the Amiga Trademarks, OS, etc exceeds the value of the debts at the time. No court ever found the company insolvent, so just because AI had no cash on hand, doesnt mean they were legally insolvent in the US.
They should have cashed the second $25K and called it a day.
Dammy
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Tigger wrote:
I love how one letter and an uncashed check takes Hyperions 25% chance of winning to 10% or less. It was really clever, I'm not sure who came up with it, but he earned his money with that one move.
I'm suprised to see you have this view. Up to this point I figured AI had a slam dunk. I read this most recent document and thought things had shifted in Hyperion's favor.
INAL, just watching this freak show. No matter who wins we all lose. Its all just strangely fascinating, in a disturbing kind of way.
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Tigger is continually bigging up AINC side of things. He seems to have something personal against hyperion, becuase nobody with a brain could defend AINC as much otherwise
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redrumloa wrote:
I'm suprised to see you have this view. Up to this point I figured AI had a slam dunk. I read this most recent document and thought things had shifted in Hyperion's favor.
Well first of all Hyperion was silly to bring it forward and make it part of the court record. Now there it is in black and white Itec tried to pay 25K before the 6 months had ran out, Itec say in fact they had already paid it, etc, but just in case the judge decides Tachyon money or KMOS money or McEwen money can't count towards the number, there is no doubt Itec with an Itec check tried to pay for the OS. It also takes all the KMOS transfer out of the equation. Hyperion argues that they didnt agree to KMOS (now you and I both know that Ben and Evert posted lots of messages and press releases to the contrary, but that doesnt matter now). Hyperion agreed to sell the OS to Itec, they signed a contract, Itec has tried to pay them so they supply the OS to KMOS who they have sold it too. KMOS is suing for non-delivery of the product, they know there friends at Itec would love for it to be supplied, Hyperions says they are giving it to them because they didnt agree to transfer the contract (though they took the 7200 and 8850 as more payments just fine from KMOS), fine, Itec says here is your money give us our software so we can supply it to its new owner KMOS. All the KMOS isnt AID, KMOS cant buy the contract unless we agree, etc all goes away, because Hyperion agreed to sell it to Itec, after Itec buys the OS, they can sell it whenever and to whoever they want, so Itec says give us the OS, so we can supply it to KMOS and most of Hyperions case has now gone away. All the stuff about AI-KMOS contract, the coupons, etc all goes away. Its real simple now, Itec bought the contract, Hyperion agreed to sell the OS to Itec for 25K, Itec has written checks exceeding 25K to Itec, Itec hasnt gotten the OS. Who Itec sold the OS to, how much they paid, etc, all has nothing to do with Hyperion. Hyperion has cut there own throat and Ben doesnt even realize it yet. It like when he provided the Friedens contracts, they help AID alot more then they help him. Ben needs to prove a US company was insolvent when it owed a few 100K and still owned trademarks worth millions, or prove that despite he and the rest of Hyperion telling people "when its done" for years, that it actually was done in December of 2004, even if he does that, he still needs to prove that Itec didnt really pay them the $24750 which he invoiced for the wrong amount. Hyperion needs to be working on a better rabbit or start doing something to cut the court costs they are going to have to pay for AI's high priced legal team.
-Tig
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All this debating and endlessly gonig over the facts as each person sees them is pointless. The a.inc fanboys will keep saying a.inc is gonna win and the hyperion fans will do the same. When it comes down to it the judge and/or jury will decide.
One thing you can guarentee is the amiga community is gonna lose.
Me I'll just sit on the sidelines, play with my pegs and aros, and snigger to myself at people who keep saying the same point of view over and over again.
Can we just move on to something more constructive!!! PLEASE!
http://www.lincsamiga.org.uk
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gazgod wrote:
Can we just move on to something more constructive!!! PLEASE!
If you dont like a thread, dont read it or dont post on it, all the posts here are on topic except yours. Makes you think.
-Tig
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JJ wrote:
Tigger is continually bigging up AINC side of things. He seems to have something personal against hyperion, becuase nobody with a brain could defend AINC as much otherwise
First of all JJ, I'm the guy the wrote the big article (and timeline) that went into the entire "probably illegal" transfer of assets by AI to KMOS. I'm the one who pointed out all the lawsuits AI lost (Bolten, Matt, Fedex, etc) I dont like McEwen very much and as most know, Fleecy tries to keep a country or two between him and me, it keeps his crooked ass teeth in his mouth. HOWEVER, that doesnt mean that Hyperion has a case here. Its hilarious that everyone thinks that Bernd (Amithlon) and I are shilling for AI at the moment, when neither of us can stand them and know from personal experience that they are crooks, its just they actually have a case, like they didnt before, and legally they are much more likely to win then Hyperion. As I said about 6 weeks ago, I'm not a Spurs fan, but I think they are going to win the NBA playoffs (they did). I'm not an AI fan either, that doesnt mean they arent going to win this lawsuit, and the sooner people realize that AI winning is probably the only chance for the OS at this point the better. I'm sure at the end of this when AI wins, we'll have a bunch more leaving the community because HypeOS is the real OS and they arent interested in whatever AI supplies despite the fact it will be very close to what shipped for the A1. We've seen some of that already.
-Tig
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@ tigger
fair enough. Sorry jumped to conclusions. Please accept my apologies.
Have a pint on me :pint:
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Tigger wrote:
If you dont like a thread, dont read it or dont post on it, all the posts here are on topic except yours. Makes you think.
-Tig
Right.
There aren't any fans of either company left here any more, just a bizare fascination.
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redrumloa wrote:
Right.
There aren't any fans of either company left here any more, just a bizare fascination.
Pssh.
All of this was done, "so the world may know". TM
*snickers*
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@Tiger
I think most of your arguments are broken by the (fraudulent) way that Amiga Inc done things...
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quite hillarious that some people even engage in theese lawsuits things when they actually have no interests in the outcome at all as they "left" the scene ages ago.
All i can say is, no matter what happens (who wins) we as amigans will loose on it.
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I think most of your arguments are broken by the (fraudulent) way that Amiga Inc done things...
Why don't you go point by point with Tigger on where he is wrong?
Dammy
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TjLaZer wrote:
It's funny how everyone is so anti piracy on here with regards to sending Kickstart ROMs, Workbench disks and similar things, ...
Yeah - who should hinder someone pirating anything labeled "Amiga", if "AInc (Delaware)" really gets sentenced
to drop the name "Amiga" from their company name, public sponsorships and so on?
If they really should have no rights to use the Amiga name, and really had no rights to Amiga OS 3.1 to 3.9; and AInc (Washington ) no longer exists - who holds the rights then?
Who would have the right to sue someone pirating Amiga IP then?
TjLaZer wrote:
Amiga, Inc is obviously still in business and ... I see it going in their favor. Good thing this is happening in a US court.
If this bunch of betr - errmmm - those people, who took my money and failed more than five years to give me anything in return up to now really should win this case, then I'd say this would shade a very bad light on that US court/US law and make foreign customers of US companies think twice before they go into business with them...
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dammy wrote:
They should have cashed the second $25K and called it a day.
Dammy
And spent the money hiring Van Halen to play McBill's birthday. :-D :-D :-D
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In the present day of 20-jun-2007 the amiga doesnt matter. Period. No matter how good or new features there will/are in OS4.0 the times have changed. One will need a HUGE incredible marketing budget to viably put AMiGA back on the scene. It wont happen.
My memory recalls an guru and beloved famous Amigan at the time, and amiga inc employee, having a conversation with some other dude. It was waaaaay back at in Des-2000 at the World of Amiga in Koln, Germany.. I overheard him saying something to some other guy (both wearing amiga t-shirts) that the "fools can forget about this platform, it's dead. Start using windows, hahahahahahaaaa!". Thats when i handed hom back my Amiga/TAO SDK CD and said: "Good luck amiga". He looked at me, puzzled..
All of the inner fight have killed any potential future for Amiga. IF anyone who is not gonna or wanna use Windoze then the next best is an Apple, or a linux machine running Ubuntu Linux.
From a pure consumer standpoint there is NO reason whatsoever for me to waste money on a dead platform plagued by inner fights, bankruptcys and what-not. Things to consider:
* On what type of hardware can OS4.0 run?
* Does it use a Intel platform?
* When is it available?
* Can i run open office on it, or is Amiga too a platform only for coders..?
My ole' A1200 has been gathering dust more than 8 years up in the attic. Love WindozeXP or hate it, it pays my Bills.
The amiga lives on as part of my teenage sentiments.
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I think you are missing the point. I would say 90% of people here accepted a long time ago that Amiga is dead and will alwyas be a hobby platform to us. Most of us will hust enjoy it for what it is.
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I managed to read through all of the court documents yesterday (I had only read a couple previously)
A few points:
As far as payment, evidence has been presenting proving a transfer of $20K from Itec to Hyperion and $2,250 from Tachyon. Evidence has also been presented that McEwen attempted to wire another $2,500 to Hyperion, though so far no documents have been presented that prove that the wire actually went through. These payments total $24,750, though Hyperion claims to have mistakenly sent an invoice to Itec for $22,500 for the Itec and Tachyon payments (or for the $2,250 payment, I don't remember which). Amiga Delaware has also claimed that they made two additional payments for OS4 in the neighborhood of 7K and 8K respectively, but haven't provided any documentation to support that claim as of yet. I believe that Hyperion has claimed that payments from KMOS thus far have been for other contracts (like the development for the Arctic reference platform) and not for OS 4.
There's a dispute in the interpretation of the contract here as well. There is a statement that essentially says that payments need to first be applied to outstanding debts. Hyperion argues that even if Itec did successfully send them a total of $25K (including the Tachyon and McEwen payments) that it first needs to be applied to an oustanding Bill for other work Hyperion did for Amiga Washington and that they didn't pay enough as a result. Amiga Delaware claims that it doesn't matter what they were paying Hyperion for as long as they pay them $25K then the buy-in/buy-back clause is triggered.
The validity of the Itec to KMOS transfer is important to this case in that if Itec just sold KMOS the OS and not the rights to the contract KMOS/Amiga Delaware has no standing to sue Hyperion over the OS (though the trademark issue still stands). Itec could certainly sue Hyperion in this case of course. Amiga Delaware doesn't seem to be arguing that the purchase was made in this way though. As far as I can gather they are arguing that they bought the rights to the contract itself and thus the validity of the transfer is important (though again if the transfer to Itec was valid, Itec could still go after Hyperion).
On the insolvency question, it's important to look at the judgement denying the preliminary injunction. In his decision, the judge basically said that the contract didn't clearly define what was meant by insolvency and that Hyperion's view that Amiga Wa was insolvent back in 2002 could be correct. You can't just look at it from a Title 11 perspective until it goes to court and its decided that the insolvency clause actually means Title 11 bankruptcy and not some lower standard.
The completion question is an interesting one. The contract never actually says what it means for OS 4.0 to be complete. Hyperion claims that the December 04 release (and perhaps even the release prior) implements all the required and important features and most of the optional features listed in Annex I and therefore that release should mark the completion. Amiga Delaware says that was beta quality code and that Hyperion never notified them that they considered OS 4.0 done. Hyperion counters that a certain communication they sent (one of the many documents submitted to the court) was sufficient notice, though after reading it I can't say it really makes much of a clear statement that OS 4.0 is done. I found it rather amusing that Hyperion is using a review by Ars Technica as a piece of evidence.
In the end, a lot of this wouldn't be an issue if the contract wasn't so crappy. A lot of the terms used aren't properly defined leaving too much room for interpretation once disputes arise (insolvency and completion are just two of many examples). Neither party included enough language to protect their interests in case things didn't go according to plan. Hyperion clearly planned to finance most of their development work through sales of OS 4.0 with the $25K payment more of a token offering, but they seem to have failed to consider what would happen if the hardware situation fell through and they had no one to sell the OS to. Amiga didn't give itself much protection from Hyperion taking too long. The contract gives Hyperion a deadline, but only requires that they use "best efforts" to meet it.
Anyway, Amiga Delaware is far from having an open and shut case, but you don't have to trust my analysis of it. Just read the judge's decision in denying the injunction. One of the requirements for a preliminary injunction is a strong likelihood of success by the plaintiff and the judge himself said that wasn't the case. Of course, this isn't the same thing as saying Hyperion is in the clear either. Currently, Hyperion has done a much better job supplying documentation to support their claims than Amiga Delaware has, but that could change and if it does Hyperion's potential arguments get cut down quite a bit (though they could still try to win in it through one of the loosely worded areas of the contract).
What happens next will probably largely depend on how much money both parties have available for going to court. Amiga Inc. supposedly has a bunch of cash right now, but it's unclear how much of that is from actual profit and how much of it is investor money. If most of its the latter, they may be under a lot of pressure from their backers to settle. Investors tend to want to use their money to be making more money after all, not squander it on drawn out court cases. Likelihood of winning the battle will also come in to play certainly. Amiga Delaware may not have had the time to get all their documentation together or it's possible that they were too incompetent to keep proper documentation in the first place (which wouldn't be surprising given the people involved).
Of course, a settlement would be rather boring for us. A court case would almost certainly dig up some more juicy dirt on the companies involved. A court case might also have the nice side effect of putting these two companies out of business so that everybody who hasn't done so will just move on.
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@MskoDestny
That's a pretty goood summary IMO. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
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Which PDF had the signed contract between Hyperion and AI WA for the additional work Hyperion said it was going to do, and for how much? Or wasn't there a signed contract for any additional work?
Dammy
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dammy wrote:
Which PDF had the signed contract between Hyperion and AI WA for the additional work Hyperion said it was going to do, and for how much? Or wasn't there a signed contract for any additional work?
Dammy
I don't remember seeing it, but I don't remember seeing any dispute over whether Amiga Washington did indeed Hyperion money outside of the $25K buyback clause. I think there was a question as to how much the amount was and of course as to whether it matters in the context of the current case. It's possible I'm just misremembering though. All the documents are already starting to blur together in my mind and the way they're named doesn't make it easy to go find things again.
I went back and looked around a bit: this pdf (http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/26exhibit6show_case_doc.pdf) does contain an invoice from Hyperion to Amiga Wa and an e-mail from Fleecy to Hans-Joerg Frieden mentioning said invoice and that it was unpaid.
It's interesting reading that e-mail. It seems Hyperion and Amiga may have been on rocky terms for quite some time. I could help but want to see more e-mails in the chains of conversation we got glimpses of through these various documents.
@redrumloa
There are some things I left out that should probably be included for a proper summary, but I think I got most of the main points.
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Why don't you go point by point with Tigger on where he is wrong?
Why should I? I'm not ripping anything out of him, just expressing that in my personal view 'the (fraudulent) way that Amiga Inc done things' (i.e- shell game) is enough to shatter the Amiga case..
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Yes definately. Well hopefully something good will come from this and soon. Cheers
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@pixie
Problem is the whole "bancruptsy-clause" is just another part of AIncs "fraudulent way of doing things".
The last thing Hyperion should want is someone taking a closer look into AInc's past action cos one thing is sure if the IP goes up for auction the !whole! contract is gonna be voided.
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@Kronos:
So it seems.. still I don't know where Amiga will get another company to do their AmigaOS 4, probably they will just redo the contract, after all they were willing to pay 2M weren't they...
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So it seems.. still I don't know where Amiga will get another company to do their AmigaOS 4, probably they will just redo the contract, after all they were willing to pay 2M weren't they...
For that type of money, bet they could get MOS for OS5. Then again, they can download OS5 from here (http://www.aros.org).
Dammy
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That numeral came from the mouth of the beast, referring to the brothers...
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I hope no one is holding their breath awaiting an outcome. . . :roll: This isn't going to be a quick case. :-x
Morph OS 2.0 will be out and on its way to 2.5 long before this case is through.
Maybe even longer, because the way they are going, neither party will end up a winner. And we the community (as related to OS4) will be the loser. :-x
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Is there a possibility that interested parties may be investing in Hyperion (financially or resources) thus encouraging or instigating this course of litigation?
Ultimately I'm sure there's a number of parties who would like to see the Amiga IP released from McEwen & co's control. Is the case being treated as a golden opportunity?
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It's just another tale of woe in the saga that is Amiga. The motion is up for Friday the 13 of July.. Yes Friday the 13th!. Lets hope that is bad luck for Amiga Inc. If all the alligations are correct (and we know a lot are) AI are nothing more than crooks.
I only hope Hyperion's interests are not just for themselves or their intellectual investment but also for the good of Amiga.
:roll:
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It's just another tale of woe in the saga that is Amiga. The motion is up for Friday the 13 of July.. Yes Friday the 13th!. Lets hope that is bad luck for Amiga Inc. If all the alligations are correct (and we know a lot are) AI are nothing more than crooks.
Your just NOW figuring this out?
I only hope Hyperion's interests are not just for themselves or their intellectual investment but also for the good of Amiga.
Looks like your hopes are badly misplaced. :roll:
Dammy
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pappavis wrote:
...
Things to consider:
* On what type of hardware can OS4.0 run?
It had been sid it would run on my CSPPC (besides others)...
pappavis wrote:
* Does it use a Intel platform?
No.
pappavis wrote:
* When is it available?
No idea - maybe "within the next two weeks" (TM)?
pappavis wrote:
* Can i run open office on it, or is Amiga too a platform only for coders..?
...
There have been talks about running OpenOffice via the X11 environment.